Sophie Chiche on How to Do More of What Matters
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Hi, everyone. Welcome to the mindfulness exercises podcast. I'm Sean Fargo. Today of the honor and pleasure of speaking with Sophie Sheesh, who is a life strategist, author and therapist.

She's been a serial entrepreneur since she started trading pencils in the sandbox at the age of six years old. And for the last 30 years, Sophie has been cracking the code of doing more of what matters. She has master's degrees in journalism, psychology,

and business. She wrote The Power of Personal Accountability while running a consulting firm and building multi-million dollar businesses. As a coach, she brings unique abilities and life experiences to propel people into greatness. Sophie's work has been featured on Ellen, The

The Today Show, Good Morning America, Forbes, the Los Angeles Times, and the New York Times. And she hosted the launch of the Living Section in the Huffington Post. She grew Life By Me, an online community of over 900,000 readers in 2010. And she's a two-time TEDx speaker. After speaking at the International Symposium on

restorative justice and peace in Colombia. She facilitated sessions in South Africa with Nelson Mandela and Desmond Tutu. Born in France, but American by choice, Sophie settled in the middle of nowhere, Arizona, where she rides her Harley Davidson with her boo,

and she plays a lot of pickleball, which she's going to do here in the next couple of hours today. She's also the co-host of a podcast called Be Play Love, where you can find more information at beplaylove.com. Sophie's website is sophiesheesh.com, which is S-O-H-I-E-C-H-I-C-H-E.com.

Sophie, it's a quite fascinating bio. I'm looking forward to our conversation. Welcome to the podcast. Thank you. It was fun listening to your reading it. I was remembering the moments and really appreciating the journey that gets one to where one is. Yeah.

Yeah, well, you're a life strategist. Did you strategize all of this ahead of time? That's a really interesting question, Sean, to start us because I would have to say no. I mean, the strategy was I wanted to work with people I love doing something I love that makes a difference to someone.

That was kind of the premise of if I track all the things, I had a higher calling, but not really the strategy of every step. No, I can't say that I did. Yeah. Doing things you love. How did you discover what it is that you love? And I'm just curious.

curious, since this is sort of a podcast about, you know, mindfulness and being present and aware, how did you become more aware of what brought you love and joy in your life?

Contrast, I find very helpful. So at the beginning, there was probably more, this is something I don't like. That led me to start identifying what I do like. And I also kind of want to plug the idea of self-love. The way you were asking the question made me think of

along the start of my life, had a good amount of self-destructive behaviors, I would describe them as, because I wasn't very caring for myself and very respectful of myself. And so I would say the journey towards knowing what I love had a lot to do with a journey towards loving myself.

And sensing that there was more and deserving, deserving a life that actually brings me a lot of joy was definitely a big, it was a before and after, I would say. Self-love comes up a lot as a challenge for many people in our community. A lot of people struggle with feeling worthy enough of their own love.

feeling like it needs to be evidence-based. You know, many of us have patterns of, you know, harsh criticism and judgment, maybe from parents or, you know, significant figures from our past. And, you

I'm a believer that mindfulness is imbued with a sense of gentle care with ourselves, but I'm curious to hear a little bit about your journey with self-love, if you're open to talking about it and how that unfolded for you.

Very open to all of it is open for discussion. It started from, it's a funny catch-22 for me a little bit because not loving myself led me to behaviors that confirmed that I shouldn't love myself. And, you know, pretty spirally confirmed.

kind of way. So I overate a lot. I used to be 350 pounds. I smoked three packs a day at some point. I know being French, there is a little leeway there, but it's very cultural. But there was definitely my friend Gay Hendricks called smoking very slow suicide, which I really like. The visual for me is very clear that there was a destruction, like a wanting to hurt myself component to all these behaviors.

And then there was friends, people around me that were starting to speak to what they were watching me do in a caring way. And that started to awaken in me a, it doesn't have to be that way type of shift in consciousness. I actually had a friend who died when I was, we were 19. She had an aneurysm and pretty much dropped dead. And there was definitely a moment then of,

wow, that actually could end this thing called life. And I would say that was probably the beginning of,

of wanting a better life, make better choices. But it was a long journey. I would say it took me 10, 15 years to build on the goodness. I remember one of my friends listening to me once, we were having a conversation and he said, why are you so unkind when you refer to yourself? Which was like, whoa, like a nice awakening. Actually, he grabbed the

I still have it on my other desk. He grabbed a little puppet that he has that's extremely cute that we called Kind and he gifted it to me. And I often look at it as a reminder to not use words towards myself that I wouldn't use on anyone else.

which is often what people do. They talk kinder to others than they talk to themselves. So I would say it was a journey. I started eating better, sleeping a little more. I discovered meditation. There was, I remember this one friend who introduced me to somebody else and the words she used, I remember looking at her very puzzled, like,

is that how you see me? Like she spoke of being creative and being so kind and, you know, all these beautiful words. And I remember them. She was very, very genuine. I think that's a big piece. But I remember thinking, wow, if I trust her, if she is someone I really love and trust. And so if she sees me that way, she's actually my co-host on the podcast now, Katie Hendricks. And she, the words she used to describe me, I feel,

For a while, it was a little bit act as if maybe like I would walk around being like, oh, yeah, this is what she thinks of me. So I attempted to live my life to match those words. Beautiful. Yeah. When those people would say kind things to you and.

kind things about you? Was there a little bit of like an imposter syndrome or resistance? It sounds like there was maybe like, maybe not confusion, but like it maybe seemed a little bit foreign in the beginning. Yeah, I would actually say to my inside myself, sometimes maybe I would even say it out loud. But I remember saying, if only you knew me of sorts, which is, you know, similar to imposter syndrome. So it's like I had this

And I'm a Gemini, not that I know that much about astrology, but there was definitely this dual, the sense of this duality of this is the persona I have out in the world. And this is truly what I am inside of me. That's not as nice. That's not as good. And funny enough, as my personality,

as it started to shift, and I would say my self-love started to be more my operating system, when someone would say something unkind or I would say something unkind to myself, the opposite happened. I would have the, what is that? That's not me. That's not me at all. So what used to be the exception of,

feeling good about myself became the norm and what used to be, you know, targeting myself, target practice for my criticism. That is what became very foreign as it started shifting. Yeah. And I love that phrase that, you know, smoking is like a form of like slow suicide. And, you know, so many of our behaviors are that way too. And

And I was looking at your website and it looks like one of the things that you can help people with is using self-love as a secret productivity weapon, which helps you to multiply your impact more.

your profit and your well-being. Can you talk a little bit about how self-love is actually kind of a productivity weapon for people? Yeah. So productivity is a big bucket that has to do with what we do, right? It's like I have a task, I say yes to something,

I get an agreement for something or I'm paid to do something, right? It has to do with doing. And so if you start from a place of self-love, there are things that you don't say yes to anymore.

And so people often come to me because they procrastinate or they finding themselves not motivated to do a number of things. It's not the only reason, but one big one often starts from why did you say yes to this thing that you're now avoiding doing?

For a while, when I was working my own little process to discover what I teach now, I would think to myself. So, for example, you asked me to come to this podcast. I would a week and a half ago when you asked me or two weeks, whenever it was, I genuinely put it through my head.

internal system is like, it's two weeks from now. So now I'm waking up and that's what I'm doing today. Will I feel joy? Will I feel excited? Will I look at my calendar that morning and say, yippee, I'm gonna do that today. And if the answer is no, I say, no, I've learned, I would say one of the biggest hack behind

the productivity piece is learning to say no to things that don't bring us joy, things that we say yes to, because we are afraid of saying no. And that really leads to, and people often will, that's one of my favorite part. They'll look at their calendar and they'll say, Oh,

two months from now, I'll have space. Well, no, you won't. When you get there, you'll be filled. And so saying yes, saying yes to things has become one of the biggest hack for me, because so much is coming at us. Yeah, like it used to be one or two a week, maybe. And now it's, you know, one or two a second. So yeah, I love like, just reading your bio makes me smile. Like,

You know, you said yes to living in the middle of nowhere in the desert, riding your motorcycle.

playing pickleball. I love how you're prioritizing what feels, you know, exciting to you. I'm curious about how you mentioned that you, you know, discovered meditation and your process of self-love and kind of waking up to a healthier lifestyle. Can you talk a little bit about what meditation practices you discovered and how

meditation has supported your journey? Yeah, I met a teacher, like a spiritual teacher in my mid-20s and it was a mantra-based meditation and it would require just sitting

I remember him saying, we do two hours so we can get two minutes. And I remember him saying, if you can deeply, truly tap into this source, you don't need more than two minutes. And so the two hours is what would get you two minutes. And so I meditated with that very mantra with that same teacher for maybe 20 years. And then one day I was in a quest around

I was around working with my feminine and becoming a little bit more in tune with my own internal experience. And I was sitting in a meditation and my body said, how about we dance? I put music on. It was, it was, you know, a

a kind of music that's more soft and gentle. Like it wasn't like I started, you know, hard rock or anything. But from then on, I no longer sit and meditate in the traditional sense.

there was another moment that enriched what I'm about to tell you, which is I was in a meditation retreat many years ago and we had just spent like nine days in silence and like tapping into living in grace, like all these beautiful things. And then we went to lunch and three or four of the people that were with us in that group were literally in a fight. We're literally over there having this major brouhaha. And I remember thinking, whoo,

that's not, you know, obviously that's not to draw a conclusion of any kind other than I now really look at meditation as every moment of my day, particularly when I'm in line at the supermarket and I want to, you know, I'm annoyed that these two are chatting away while I'm

with my card ready to go. My Harley is definitely, if you don't act very present, you're dead very quickly. So it also is something that I sometimes will use and I will use it for that. Like I will just get on my bike to kind of bring me to a place of presence that's incredibly full because of the obvious reasons.

So I don't have a practice at the moment other than I dance. I attempt to dance every day and it very much has to do with connecting with my body. It is in the spirit of connecting with source and with quieting my inner dialogue. Beautiful. Yeah. For those listening who...

you know, are looking for a mindfulness or meditation practice, I think, you know, what Sophie is saying is really powerful of just kind of tuning into your essence, your way of being, maybe not feeling like you should be a certain way, but rather just tuning into what's here and to tune into what's going to bring you alive, connected, you

you know, calm or excited, whether it's still or moving or, you know, engaging the throttle to find what works for you and to, you know, drop those shoulds and the critique and kind of connect with your heart, your body, your mind.

in a way that feels sustainable and true for you. So Sophie, thanks for sharing your practices. I too would ride motorcycles quite a bit and just felt very alive, very connected. It kind of reminded me of, I used to run long distances and it just was a wonderful way of kind of navigating the world and, you know, the contours of the hills and, you know, smelling the

the trees. And so yeah, Harley meditation might be underrated. Maybe that's, that's the new trend, huh? Yeah. So and I also think, you know, dance is so powerful. And, you know, the Buddha talked a lot about how mindful walking is just as valid as mindful sitting. But you know, he wasn't a dancer, but I think dance is a wonderful practice. And I so you spoke about, you know, tapping into your feminine. It's funny, because the two books on my desk are about

Oh, I love fire in the belly. Yeah. Fire in the belly and career magician lover helping me tap into my masculine. There you go. Because sometimes I feel like been exploring the feminine so much through surrender and

flow and you know I think there's a part of me that's you know and just being a Buddhist monk for a couple years my masculine wasn't exactly active so but to yeah I think there's no shame in

really honoring your feminine or masculine or both because we all have both. You know, and when I read your bio, you know, you've done so much. You have master's degrees in business and psychology, journalism. You're a serial entrepreneur. My wife is an entrepreneur.

as well. And I think for both of us, there's this, we could use more reminders of tapping into our femininity or masculinity. Can you share a little bit about how you find that balance and how you honor your feminine and, and

how that, say, juxtaposes with some of the pursuits that might be seen as masculine. Yeah, very much so. Thank you for bringing that up. It's really a topic that moves me deeply. I would describe my childhood as unsafe. There was a lot of predatorial criticism, energy type of environment and

They being in my masculine was a bit of a survival tool. Like, I don't know that I would have survived if I had been in a more vulnerable, you know, listening to myself and scintillating, you know, just letting myself be in my liveness was was a little bit dangerous in my young years.

And so then I went into the world and I operated like, well, that's probably true for the rest of the world. And so I operated very in a very, very masculine type of behavior until I did some work with actually David Data, who's not far from the fire in the belly type of work.

And there was so much in there. But one of them had to do with, I was running a company at the time. I had, I don't know, 300 employees or something. And I really thought I had to be, I would describe it as like captain of the army was my way of describing what I was doing all day. And as in a conversation with David, I had said that it was difficult for me to go from captain of the army during the day and then, you know, belly dancer at night.

And I remember our conversation led to me understanding that I could actually lead from a very feminine place and I wouldn't need to have a whiplash at five o'clock or six o'clock, you know, when I would move into my more, my intimate relationship. And so I have really taken that to heart and I've attempted to lead the organizations that I'm involved with or the work that I do from a much more feminine place, which is a lot easier than to,

morph myself into the masculine over here and the feminine over there. I think of it as notes. It's a lot more interesting to have access to all the notes. And so sometimes it calls for a little bit more masculine energy, which is more still and more, in some ways, more

collected is one word that I like to describe that and also more forceful and more leading in many ways. And then sometimes it really calls for something else entirely. And it's, it's incredible to have access to both and then to, um,

pretty quickly, you know, to just, there are moments where I, now I know the difference. In my body, there is a very clear, like almost like I'm wearing different clothes. Like there's a certain voice, a certain persona that's a little bit more forceful, you know, leading, which is very helpful. I just spent the weekend with a bunch of women and

And I'm really glad I have access to my masculine. Let me just tell you, because there was so much flow and everything was so in the flow that I was glad I could kind of take on a little bit of that more. Yeah. I live with three girls. And yeah. Sometimes it's just really... I remember dating this guy many years ago. I had just finished a David Data workshop, actually. And

And we were sitting at my house and there was a fireplace. And he said, would you like a fire? And I got up and I started going down the stairs to get the wood. And I remember pausing mid stairs on the way down. So I didn't actually carry the wood, but I turned around and I came back and I said, I would love for you to start a fire, which at first was a little gizmo-y, you know, like I learned how to do it by myself.

by practicing these little things. And he stood up and he was all proud and happy to go get the wood, you know, to be the wood. And we had a lovely evening. I remember critically, there was a shift, you know, for me of letting, like my boo opens the door for me, which I know a lot of people think is antiquated. But the beautiful process of waiting for

And letting him take the lead in opening the door is one place where I remind myself a little bit to be more in surrender and be more in the flow. We actually had one of his friends came to visit and he's some 65 or 70 years old. And he was sharing with us that he's never been in a relationship for more than a couple of months.

And so we were talking every meal and he's with us, you know, three days now. And he notices that my boo opens the door for me. And at some point, as my guy's doing that, he comes and he kind of whispers to me, I could teach you how to open your own door, you know, which I said, I think I'm getting a glimpse of why you've only been in a relationship. Yeah.

It's a snapshot. Beautiful. Thank you so much for sharing so authentically about this. What would you say is your purpose with your work? I know you've done, you've written so many books. You've grown a community for Huffington Post in the living section. You've facilitated sessions with Nelson Mandela and Desmond Tutu. And I'm probably just scratching the surface here, but what's the...

thread between all of these things? And what would you say is your purpose? It's very possible. I had it all along. I often teased in my family as the kid who was always asking these questions about life, meaningful questions. I care about meaning. I care about loving people around me and increasing our ability to love one another. I

everything I've ever done, if I track my career, had a flavor of taking care of oneself. One of my companies that I grew from scratch, I actually, there's a story that I had $11 in my pocket when I started it, but I grew it to about $11 million, had to do with

taking care of yourself and taking time for yourself and having a practice that had to do with laying down and sweating and letting your body restore. And so I think the thread and then life by me were meaningful conversations I was having with all sorts of people. So I think if I were to boil it down, I care about people living their purpose. So I'm often at the crossroad where they are questioning where they are and where they're going. And

And I love these conversations so much that somehow by the fact that there is genuine exchange and true desire to grow, that somehow we come out of the conversation changed, both of us. Even when I coach people, it could look like I changed.

teach something or I coach someone. But in truth, it's really in the emulation, in the sharing that something happens that didn't exist before, that I didn't even know before, which I find

So delicious. So, so delicious. So somewhere between transformation and allowing people to see themselves in a more, in a kinder light, I would say. People that work with me say that somehow I end up in their ear as a Jiminy Cricket of kindness, you know, to oneself. So I like that. Which is part of your journey of loving yourself is what other people would kind of get in your ear about.

Why are you so unkind to yourself? Yeah, encouraging or like saying nice things about you. It's nice that you're that for others now. Yeah, so part of your coaching for others is it sounds like it's to help people discover what their purpose is and to help them be led by their purpose. Curious how you connect

converse with people in discovering their purpose? Do you guide them through meditations or practices? Is it listening to the heart? What are a few takeaways that are common to helping people find what their purpose is? You know, what's beautiful is I enter the door more through...

the productivity door, which is what do you say yes to? Because in doing that, it creates the contrast we were talking about yesterday. I remember this woman, I was teaching her my methodology that has to do with what do you say yes to? And once you said yes to it, how do you organize it and how do you

present it back to yourself so that you like doing it and you do it with respecting the commitment that you made and all the things. And I remember we built this tool that I build with people and she looked at it and I saw tears falling down her face.

And I, of course, gave her the space and time and then we paused together and I said, do you want to tell me, do those tears have a source? Like, is there something that... And she said, yes, I don't like my life. Because once we had it all presented to her and she was able to transfer it from her brain...

word pinballs all the things we say yes to you know and if we're lucky we remember them at the right time which is the opposite of what i teach i teach a process that allows people to empty their brain so that their brains can do what it's meant to do which is think and innovate and create and certainly not hold david allen talks about how the brain is not a shelf which i love

And so in the process of that, I think people, either they know their purpose and they've gone away from it. That's often a version of what I find is it will take us a or two sessions, one or two sessions to discover that people do know what their purpose is, but they have built a story, let's call it, to...

not live that life. And so sometimes it's just a matter of reconnecting the dots for people that they deserve. Like there is a reason why someone is born with a desire to be a gymnast at the Olympics. I don't have that desire whatsoever, but there is a particular energy and things that are given to this particular individual so that they will be able to go and be a gymnast at the Olympics. So I believe there is an element of destiny, you know, where people are meant to be or do or

or work in a particular line. But I also believe that the contrast is very helpful. You know, like I had one job, that's my one claim. I had one job that I was paid a salary for one time in my entire life. And I'm in my, you know, late fifties because I realized very quickly that I was not a good fit for the system. And so I wanted to create the systems that I wanted to thrive in.

not everyone has that bone of entrepreneurship but if you have it it's I really I strongly encourage people to follow that even if it's a hustle you know on the side at first or but to so to answer your question I would say the purpose is a little bit the spinach in the pasta in the work that I do because people come for the pasta I want to do more I want to be more productive I want to

make more money, you know, whatever the forefront of the thing is. But very quickly, the conversation redirects towards who are you and what turns you on and what makes your life, you know, excited to get out of bed and go do your day. One of my absolute favorite friend and client originally, friends now, refers to a podcast I was on many years ago where apparently I would have said, my Fridays are like my Mondays. It makes no difference. And he just heard that as a

Please give me that. Like you had, you know, that he didn't like. And now he is. We actually work together very much in the spirit. So that could be an answer to that question. It's like, how do you build a life where your Fridays and your Mondays don't, they don't have that much of a feel to them. Right. Yeah. Like a couple of years ago, I just learned of the phrase,

I have a case of the Mondays. I think that's what it's called. Yes. And like, there's a phrase where that you start feeling, I guess on Sunday night, the Sunday. Yeah. What is it called? The Sunday. Yeah. Like,

Like you're afraid of Monday. Yeah. And you start feeling that. Jitters, the Sunday jitters. Yeah. And I didn't know that was, I mean, it makes sense, but it's, yeah, it's, it's, you know, if we have a lot of,

A lot of those. I think it's time to start revisiting what we're doing. You wrote The Power of Personal Accountability. You're running a consulting firm. Yeah. Is to you is like personal accountability along this thread of being accountable to yourself as someone who you love and

and knowing what you want and knowing, you know, figuring out what your purpose is, is that to you what personal accountability is? It's in there for sure. People often look at that word accountability as the enemy that because often it's perceived as something that's going to come from a teacher or

a boss when I see it as the ultimate freedom. I say, for example, when I was struggling with my weight, the accountability was not to punish me. The accountability that I gave myself was so that I would do the acts that connected and were coherent with the choice I was making to live a healthier life.

And so accountability for me is identifying what is important to me and my goal, my vision, my whatever it is. It could be for my health, it could be for my family. And once it's identified, how do I line up my behaviors so that there is a cohesion and a coherence between the two? Because otherwise, that's not free. A lot of people think freedom is doing whatever the heck I want.

Maybe, but it has to be grounded. For me, it has to be grounded in this self-care because before, what I wanted was Nutella and chocolate cake all day long, but it wasn't grounded in an act of self-care. And I knew it because every time I would eat it, I would feel sick to my stomach for the next few hours. And so I knew that my body was not cooperating or happy with what I was doing. And so...

The self-love, it's a little bit of like which for the chicken and the egg a little bit, because more self-love, easier to have a healthy life. And the more my life became healthy, the more easy it was to have a lot of self-love. Yeah. Yeah. I think a lot of people, when they think of the word a

accountability, you know, they think you're accountable to other people and we are, can we be accountable to ourselves? And, you know, I think a lot of people have say like a victim mentality and, you know, doing things for other people. You think, you know, a lot of the bestselling books these days are about how to care less about what people think of them.

to fear people's judgments less and less so that you value your own view of yourself and valuing yourself. And, you know, I think in terms of like mindfulness and meditation, a lot of Asian masters, a lot of monks from Tibet and India and China will say that the practitioners in the East are

are very strong with the caring piece but maybe a little bit less so the discernment piece whereas practitioners in the west are stronger with the say mental discernment are often weak or they're not cultivating the heart quite as much and

You know, mindfulness is not just, you know, knowing that you're breathing in and out. There's plenty of practices around being gentle with ourselves, being cultivating loving kindness, compassion, sympathetic joy, equanimity, gratitude.

generosity and forgiveness. And I think when we're deciding on what practices to pursue, I would strongly encourage a lot of people listening to consider practices of the heart and to practice loving kindness for oneself. Jack Kornfield said, if all you do is loving kindness practice for yourself, that will be sufficient because then the rest of your life will be that much more powerful and

and smooth. And, you know, a lot of these practices are around self-acceptance. And then it just translates into how kind we are with other people. So this is all to say that I love your emphasis on the power of personal accountability, listening within, discovering your purpose, taking really good care of yourself, sensing into what you say yes to, what you say no to,

It's all really beautiful. Can you talk about the role of community in your work and how you've cultivated community among other people and how that feeds into accountability, productivity, and living a good life? Why are all these words so long? Accountability, productivity, community. It's like such an exercise to make it into a short word.

clear sentence. I view community as a group of people. So to me, there is an environment that supports people participating. So whether it was when I had my shape house, which was the business of the wellness business, I would create an environment where people felt seen and

we're seen and we're heard. And so community is not something that comes for me from the outside. It comes from within. Like I genuinely care about people. I genuinely care about sharing information and knowledge. And I genuinely care about participating in activities that are a manifestation of kindness and goodness. And so it happens constantly.

very naturally, like there is a magnetism towards those that one of my friends says, because she said it, I can repeat it. I don't know that I would if she hadn't said it to me, but she described me as a lighthouse and said that there was this energy that when people feel a little bit lost, that somehow conversations with me or experiences with my work often bring light to that. And I think that is like we were saying earlier, like the gymnast

for the Olympics is wired a particular way. I think some of us are wired to, to create an environment where people are naturally wanting to be more loving of themselves. I remember when, when the sweat thing that I was telling you about earlier, my, my thing, my, my,

my engine inside of me was people don't want to kill other people when they come out of a sweat. Like when you sweat deeply and you detox deeply, you don't come home and drink alcohol. You don't tend to come home and beat up anyone or be violent of sorts or have road rage, you know, all the things because your nervous system is, you know, in equilibrium. And so there's no, so I like going to the source.

I like that. I like, it's probably one of my, when you were asking earlier, my purpose is I like going from within when we searching those things, because otherwise I just fix the guy. So he doesn't have road rage. But what's interesting to me is to, is to bring such goodness to that person that he doesn't want to do road rage because that's not what it's like. He's just, he's not in a state where that's what comes out as a reflex. So that's,

providing environments and experiences where people, it's funny this weekend, I was with a group of women and there was a conversation at some point that turned very gossipy and I have a physical allergic reaction to gossip. It's one of my things. I do tell stories by not telling you who the people are because there is learning to be have, you know, when something happens, but it took me, I don't know, maybe a minute and a half.

to say, I don't participate in this kind of like putting other people down and talking about people behind their backs. If you'd like to continue, let me know. I'm happy to go. And there was a lot of activities I could go do. And there was no resentment. There was no,

It was just a beautiful, like, not something I want to, like, I don't like broccoli, you know, it's like, I don't participate in broccoli. And that was really beautiful, you know, to, to use your energy, my energy in that moment to redirect that.

And everybody woke up. Everybody was like, yeah, that's all why we're here. What else? And then someone started sharing something big that was happening in her life and the conversation was redirected. That's community for me. That's something that keeps us all awake. Yeah. Well, and you probably cultivated a lot of trust in your friends and you and

And, you know, helping them to gossip less. I was just talking to someone this morning that I think that the real Housewives franchise is kind of the antithesis of what I want in my home. Yeah. And I find it's

I don't mean to judge the real housewives, but like there's a lot of that gossipy energy in those shows. And I think that having that on TV as an example of, you know, what wealthy people do or whatever is a little sad. But that's why we do this kind of conversation, you and me, in different ways. But that's why there was a time where gossiping was probably more comfortable for me than self-expression. And so... Yeah, well...

Yeah, I'm really struck again by that phrase around smoking. It's like this slow form of suicide. And, you know, the same could be said for a lot of these things that kind of slowly deteriorate our soul, our body, our spirit. And that, you know, when we look clearly at some of these behaviors and types of thinking, that they are a form of degradation. And

that, you know, we may use them as coping mechanisms, but that when we have the courage to really look at it, clearly, you know, we can choose healthier ways of being.

you know it may sound extreme to call these things you know slow forms of suicide but it does spur a reaction or it does spur this sense of action it's like oh i don't want to kill myself you know a lot of us are frogs in you know slowly boiling water but when we see that the water is going to kill us when it gets to a certain temperature you know we're going to jump out sooner and

And the Buddha talks about how the most powerful mindfulness practice there is, is mindfulness of death. That sensing into this very breath is potentially our last, is very enlivening. It really wakes us up.

And so we can use that not as a dark practice, but rather a clarifying practice for our life. How are we living? Are we doing certain things that are a slow form of suicide? What are the things that are bringing us joy and helping us to live the way we want to live?

So these are very powerful questions. And so I'm going to write this down when we're done here, like around these slow forms of suicide that I do in my life and may schedule a call with you for a coaching session. Joyfully. I wrote an article a few years ago that was called Pickleball Saved My Life. And the first sentence of the article was not exactly from death, but from a life where I wouldn't have felt my body.

Because that is through pickleball that I particularly found this integration. My body used to be a vehicle to carry my head around, really. But when I learned to feel my feelings and I learned to sit with my sadness or my upset or my loneliness or any of those things, then food had lost its

It's power. The power was, and I think gambling, porn, you know, all the things that people do, control. Control is controlling others and controlling what's happening is another form that people give themselves a sense of,

I've got this of sorts because the unknown and probably the fear of death very right around the corner makes people have behaviors that are very avoidant. You know, just like, I don't want to feel those things. And so I'm going to get drunk or I'm going to do drugs. I'm going to do all these things that I remember when I,

I switched my eating to be healthy. One of the moments that were very, very radical was I was sitting, my thing was eating at night, 2:00 AM, I would wake up, I would go to the fridge, I would pull up a chair and I would eat pretty much everything in sight in the refrigerator. But there was this one time where I heard the way we get inspired probably, but I heard a voice say, "You can eat everything."

But first, I would like you to go feel your feelings. I remember being a bit terrified of what does that even mean? And I did. I closed the fridge and I sat there and I could have been 30 minutes, could have been three weeks. I have no idea. Probably an hour and a half of sorts. But I cried and I felt this inner desperate, whatever, all the things. And then when I was done, there really was this feeling of like,

freeing myself. But I went back to the refrigerator and I said, I'm going back to bed. I was not interested in any of it because I had given myself the voice that my psyche, my soul was needed to express. So after I did that, there was just no need to cover it up with food. Yeah, it sounds similar to the sweat lodge where after you sweat, you don't want to stuff yourself with ice cream because you've

Yeah, feeling deeply. Did you move to Arizona so that you could play more pickleball? No, I discovered when I was here. Okay. But I was just in LA. So I lived in LA for 32 years after coming from France. But I was in LA for four days, five days. And I tried to play, but it was here where I live. There's courts, like I can pretty much see them from over here. And there's always people wanting to play. And so I can pretty much show up and play, which is wonderful.

That is one of the reasons I love being here. Yeah. Have you played? Have you tried? I played a couple times and I really enjoyed it. Yeah. I...

I should, or I'd like to play more. My wife wants to play. So yeah. Where are you based? Where are you? Berkeley, California. Oh yeah. You'll find that there. Yeah. Yeah. They're around. I used to play a lot of tennis and, you know, as you get older and a little heavier pickleball sounding much more appealing, much more fun. And it's, it is more fun partly because the court is smaller. So you're closer to the people and you can like tennis is,

like this guy over there. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. It's funny. So, you know, for the last 30 years, you've been cracking the code of doing more of what matters. I'd like to get your take on something. So I go back and forth a little bit about whether watching sports matters to me. And if so, why? Yeah.

Because on the one hand, you know, professional sports, they're a business, they're a conglomerate of players looking for higher revenues. There's, you know, in some ways it's trivial. Like, you know, it really doesn't matter who wins or loses in the big picture of things. And yet on the other hand, you know, it's one form of competition.

people coming together to celebrate, to root for your home team. You're seeing athletic excellence being displayed. There's a human performance aspect to this, that it's a conversation starter.

And maybe there's no objective right or wrong here, but how would you unpack whether that matters to someone as a form of, you know, how one spends their time and

finding that hierarchy of, you know, what's more valuable and what I pay attention to? How would you navigate that? Thank you. I love this question so much. I used to really look down on people that spent a lot of time watching sports to be completely transparent before I even answer. It's a complicated one. I

I would tie it to intention. Like, why do you do it? And if it is, if it is as an avoidance, if it is like, oh, I'm watching these guys run around with these, these women run around, do something as a way to not be with myself, that I would say is not interesting and not a good use of your time. But the way you described it as well of like, there's a social element to it. It's like, no, of course I watch pickleball and I,

I learn, to me it's a piece of education where I'm like, wow, how did she return that ball? Or how it becomes almost like a place of training for me. So intention is everything for me. It's like AI. Everybody's talking about AI, like we should be scared to death that it's going to come and eat us in our houses. And like everything else, it's a tool that has a lot of power.

Sports to me has a similar, like if you're talking hooligans in England, you know, where people die of a stampede because people were drunk, of course not interesting. But if you're talking a father and a son, you know, or, or,

mother and daughter watching something together. My mother was an ice skater when I was little, and now she's older and I'll send her snippets of beautiful ice skating. And it's become a really sweet thing that we share that I know has value for her.

but my intention is to connect. My intention is not to avoid connection and lose myself and feel the need to compete. So I win and I'm better than you. And like all that stuff doesn't interest me. So I watch for the intention. That's, that's kind of how I capture. If I find myself doing so much of it, I, I watch like I'll, I'll catch the, like,

when tennis, my mom watches a lot of tennis and someday she could be at her house for a week and a half just watching tennis. And after two or three days, I'm like, okay, great. Let's go to the park. Let's go do something else, you know? So it boils down to intention. Sure. Yeah. I suppose you could say the same for most things that we do. Are we doing it as an escape or are we, yeah, maybe there's some wholesome intentions there. Great. Sophie, as we wrap up our conversation,

really pleasant conversation. Is there anything that you'd like to touch on that you'd like to share with our listeners that we haven't quite touched on yet? You know, lately, I'm thinking a lot about what do people spend time doing? And I'm finding that a lot of the choice is unconscious for people. And

And a bit of they want, they like being invited to something because that flatters their ego. And so they say yes, or they get engaged in some sort of practice that's not super healthy because that's what their friends are doing. Like drinking, like I don't drink, I don't do alcohol. I haven't done alcohol since I was a very young adult.

And sometimes I go to parties and people are drinking, drinking, drinking. And I'm the one who's looked at as a problem. And so I like waking up. I like the idea that we do what we do. And of course it is the mindful practice that we've talked, you know, touched on this entire conversation. But I really like the idea that people

maybe take away from this that whatever you choose to do, you're the one choosing to do it. And it's not something that is, you know, some teachers grading you if you don't do it or that it truly is your life. It's my life. And what I choose to do with it ends up, you know, it adds up to...

What will happen when I'm done with it? Will I turn around and like, like if you and I were to sit on a bench when we're, you know, in our nineties, I want to be, if you ask me, like, did you like your life? Like, did you, do you feel like you did right by your, by your own internal value? I want to say yes. And that starts right now. Like literally right this second, the choice I'm going to make to go eat something or go play pickleball or do all the things that is what actually adds up to this moment. So make good choices is my two cents.

Well, may we all sit on a park bench when we're 90 and reflect on how well we've lived our lives according to our own terms. Sophie, thank you so much for sharing all of your wisdom and your stories and your voice. I hope this is really beneficial for everyone listening. I know it has been for me and I'm definitely going to be taking away

a lot to chew on and I may reach out here again in the short future. Joyfully. Thank you. So this was one of my favorite. It's funny because you have a rhythm of conversation that is a little slower for me, but I rested in your welcome.

Really, really good. Some people say they fall asleep listening to this. Sleep is good for you. I'm glad you stayed awake. Everyone, please find Sophie's work at sophieshe.com. That's S-O-P-H-I-E-C-H-I-C-H-E.com. We'll be sharing the website link in the show notes in the description area. So please check out Sophie and her work. Again, Sophie, thank you so much for your time today.