The ZK Fast Track | Andrew & Uma of Conduit & Succinct
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Really interesting thing that we've seen with like to sync ton as you can in journalist, just the cost curve are coming down. And so if we can find a foot all today and kind of a low group of chains or even higher group of chains where users are willing to pay that additional transaction cost, IT just gets Better .

over time. and.

Welcome to bank less where today we are expLoring the frontier of zk technology. Esteban said that zk is the end game, and it's also been noted that the Z K technology has been progressing sing a little bit faster than people previously anticipated. Meanwhile, in the old world of optimistic roll ups, we are still kind of stuck in stage zero stage one of the role of decentralizing, uh, are two gas today, uma roy from to sync and Andrew huang from conduit. Ah I think that they have a silver bullet to a frog, a bunch of the optimistic roll up stacks.

Uh, what do we get with what they are delivering the opp? A sync is potentially hyper scale roll ups that are at stage one or stage two that have what are like restful aps between ropes to be able to talk to each other and fix some of the theories. fragmentation.

Is this to the silver bullet that they promise? Well, this is the big question that we ask in this episode. And how does this fix ims fragmentation? Um i'm pretty excited about this.

The fact that this is our our in production, uh, is pretty cool. So we will let you back judge for yourself about what you think. But I like .

this above. This episode is, does this help my eat bags at all? Okay, and that's a question. I could Z K supercharge, the aim of world pcs tric road map could IT even supercharge the initiative to make a one Better. And those are some the questions we asked at the end of this episode.

In addition to this narrative funk, this sentiment that uh, has invaded a serum like, know Prices down IT feels bad. What do they think about that? We weigh into this as to whether were on the right track or not with the larger of the road map.

And housework can help. I think there's been some consternation about the slowness of syrian cordell ths, even though the issue an road map is competing with so lesa on a bitcoin on different parts of execution, data availability, consensus. Even though the role the developers are all kind of going in parallel in three different directions.

I think what people are forgetting about is that was also happening in parallel is rolled up technology from third parties, from private interest, innovating and scaling the rest of the road map, the rest of the roll ups to, like I said, super charge of them, kind of to their logical conclusion. So all of that is happening at once in this. A episode is focusing on that part of the theory broke.

So let's go ahead and get right into the episode with uma from seasoned and Andrew from conduit. But first, a message to talk about on these fantastic c sponsors that make the show possible, especially cracking. I prefer cyp to change for twenty.

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Swap h OK. So Andrew woman, last month a youtube announced a collaboration called O P tinct, and i'll read from the introduction of the blog post, uh, we partnered with conduit. This is from the sync blog. We partnering with conduit, a leading role platform to support easy development of op sustinet rops O P, to think is a best of all world's Z K ruler that combines the innovation of sp one, our general purpose Z K vm, with the op stack, to create a fast, affordable and highly consumed zable Z K E V M. This is the first Z K rolt stack that conduit supports and is the only one offering fast finality of one hour instead of seven days.

So guys, whatever is going on here of breaking the mold for how i've traditionally understood zk ropes to come into the market, the Z K saying, polygon score, these teams are all building their zk framework sack as like their own flavor. Yet here we are with a rust based zk vm provider, combining with a rolling up as a service provider to bring a new zk stack framework to the table. Can you guys tell me what the hell is going on here? Can you guys elaborate on this? Like alternative, a approach to entering the market? H omi counts with you.

Yeah so I think you had a great point, which is how was Z K roloff done in the past is really different than what we're doing with ops think. And that's because IT used to be the case that Z K was really hard.

So you'd have all these teams like score, polygon, Z K sing that have teams of thirty cartography PH is um that have to build uh all these Z K circuits, which is basically magic moon math and being a really complicated thing, a very complicated machine to build A Z K world. And there's a lot of downsides to this like the roll ups uh are not fully E V M compatible, uh, which means it's IT makes life worse for developers. Uh, they take a really long time to develop their heart upgrade, and it's all very complicated.

And I think that's part of the reason why this role as a service, but is like condo IT, haven't really been able to offer um these types of roll pes to like the broader y the system. So that was the old way of doing Z K. Now with us for one, Z K is really easy.

You don't have to have thirty photograph P, H S. You can just write Normal code and use IT. So they basically turns into a weekend project, and that's pretty awesome.

And then what this lets us do is IT lets us take an existing roll up stack, lego p stack, which is used by bees unit rule chain. And a lot of other teams, I think under you guys have like hundreds of teams like experimenting with that. And you can take that and you can just take Normal code for IT, put IT in asking one and make a easy call.

So that's why I like to say kind of the best of all worlds, because you kind of get the exist role that is used by many teams, its battle tested, its production ready, and you can get all the benefits as Z, K, which is fast, fast, Better in a rope, actually secure um something that and get the best of all worlds. okay. So are we .

seeing effectively that like all of the optimistic lops that we have, least the O P stack like IT could be a weekend project to just upgrade those to c PS?

Yeah.

wait for real seems a little too good cert. There's no tradeoffs arent. We like we're used to the word tradeoffs. Is there a trade off in this in the transition?

I think probably the only trade off is that it's a little bit more expensive like you have .

to pay for yeah it's it's .

a little more expensive than um if you don't have to do zk proofs.

Why this feels like a big deal is like i've long I mean, we've watched a kind of the dull development of optimistic relations and the cave s all the while the entire knowledge like that k ropes are going to be the end game. So it's always felt like there's some technical debt out there with all the um optimistic roll. Pse will eventually have to kind of like um becomes E K rops.

And I was just under the nave impression that that would be like a really massive a like road map item that could take like months to years actually accomplish, plus the actual willows. And we might like forever be stuck on optimistic roll ups. But this is just that give its as simpler kind of some lines of code and p flipping a switch like is what you essentially predict that all of the optimistic roll pse will just turn into Z K rolph like sometime next year. Um is there anything preventing that? Or could that even like why is that a good thing?

So we think the k technologies is like incredibly impressive. But um IT looks like it's happening overnight. But uma has been like building for like years.

Um and I met her two years ago actually at the uh this year ux park uh kind of presence cy in new york um and back then, like the city the are of Z K was you're using circum you're writing like these custom circuit tic forever right um and there is no hope of getting these really complicated like E V M implementations. To prove in a way that was computationally efficient and like not super, super expensive. I think the core innovation that happened over the last few years only one much Better rust tuning for the E V M.

So like I think George, with you know I think graf and like R V M O P L O of the staff has made developing the evm ah in rust much, much easier. And then I think the core convenience ation here is really S P one which enables you to turn any kind of rust code into like A E K V M um and so that's really the composition that's happening here, enabling us to in some ways like leap frog um a lot of the U K. Implementations that are out there today.

Um I think the main barrier to entry today is really one like the integration. So obviously um you uh we can provide to like get a concrete working IT. It's a little more effort to get this integrated into a production ready kind of framework, and we've been working with the team on that and and excited for IT.

Um I think the other thing that uh kind of comes up is really an invention is kind of the cost. And so uh you might use this for a high to put roll up and the way to make IT scale ables actually have pass on the cost of the user UML actually have Better start here on the cosplay answer tion. But it's somewhere between point one cent to a more protraction, which if you look at most later choose a lot of users are kind of going to paid.

I think where might have more trouble today where um you teams are subsidizing fees for their users in merge case that might be too expensive. But I think the really interesting thing that we've seen with like a sync and can generally just the cost curve are coming down. And so if we can find a football l today and kind of a look put change or even hard to put chains where users are willing to pay that additional transaction cost, IT just gets Better over time.

And really, I think the story here is a if you look at optimistic fall proof um particularly for the large systems like arbitral one or base or O P may nap. They require like huge bonds and these large kind of chAllenge periods and with raw periods because they have this like interactive kind of two system. And so it's really cool technology.

It's like big brain is awesome. But probably only the largest change are going to be able to afford bond that secures that T V L. I think the really interesting thing thing about Z K is democratizing that security and that process stem to any chain that kind of wants IT. And so I think that's the core innovation here in addition to a bunch of other uh, kind of secondary effects like faster find.

There is two things, Andrew, that said that I want to make sure I understand you're talking about of these like glare, two chains are like the most appropriate for this upgrade. And and I think what you will load to is it's the ones that have a critical massive users because the last I checked in on, like my Z K knowledge, zk really works when you can advertize costs across many, many, many transactions.

And so if you are like a brand new layer too, with like not a lot of activity and you're just kind of bootstrapping up your activity, the proving cost are going to be high per transaction. But like maybe if you base or arbitron, the big ones where you can really spread out the cost of proving across thousands and thousands of user transaction, this is win leveraging S P one really makes the most sense. You guys both nodding. So i'm something i'm getting that part right.

I think definitely directionally right. And that the more uh, so there's an overhead or block for proving, but the more transaction you have, the more you can retire. What i'll say that you know what's been impressive is actually bringing down the fixed cost that you referred to.

And so like a new chain can actually get started as easily as like G K months uh for for of to sink proving which is like on par actually with the cost of like you launching the world on conduit and then the kind of volume base calls are the use of to you can end up passing on to the to the user, to the tune of point, one to one set per transaction. And so there are a lot of use cases that on a three side that can support even on the higher volume side, I think you look at priority fees and base fees and base users are typically pain at least that much even more than that. And so I think it's getting the point of affordability where really anybody can use IT.

I think the main I use cases where it's hard, harder to do is where, uh, kind of the chain Operators subsidizing transact actions because it's at that point you you're ready dealing with uh you know span prevention things like that. Z K might be too expensive and that's where you know Z K fought proof might make more sense um again, an improvement over the p fought proof because it's uh IT does require a chAllenge but it's not interactive and so you don't need a super extra money on really I think what we're seeing is like Z K almost leap frog and kind of the optimistic technology and this is such an underwater like uh, kind of advanced on the texture of that we didn't see coming. And so when human came to like picture on IT, like where he decided, okay, that was one of .

the things that I wanted to get clearly on the other one, the bond. You talk about the very large arbitron bond that orbital has to use to facilitate a withdraw request, right? Like I need to have liquidity in the bridge to unlock assets that people are are depositing and getting out of.

And because of the seven day optimistic for proof window, they need to have a sufficient amount of liquidity to account for seven days of liquidity, uh, and so you know only when anything can happen in seven days, uh, but because this uh Z K uh O P A sync only has a one hour chAllenge period, all of a sudden were unlocking a lot of capital. Uh, is that the main benefit of having a one hour chAllenge period? We can dislike unassured lot of capital here, kind of restore that into circulation or what what other benefits come with that one hour chAllenge?

Od, so the bond is separate from actually the liquidity in the bridge and the bond is there needs to be to the amount of capital at risk, right? And so for arbitrium, you know there's like billions of tp on there and that's why their bond is like you know like millions of dollars. You might do the same thing on O P mannered or base um and so that's why IT gets so expensive.

Um I think what's interesting about the case because you don't have this chAllenge a kind of mechanism, you're actually proving the execution and the state route that gets posted to letter one can only be accepted if the proof correct IT means you don't need a chAllenge game and so that that means you don't need the bond and you can have much faster finality guaranties. Um what faster finality actually enables is much h actually cheaper kind of bridging or interrup between different layer tues? And so I think you're exactly kind of hit the nail on the head war.

If you have a seven day draw period, you know fast bridges, whether it's like across later zero kind of really you name IT, um they have to take kind of the capital cost of uh, you know a shifting capital process is later tues and having the capital locked in these seven day bridges, that gets like very expensive over time when you bring that from seven days to one hour, that's just like over one hundred. Improvement in the happy efficiency of these protocols. And if bridging is even like relatively expensive today, IT goes even cheaper. Uh, and I think that's the type of interros and and kind of primitive that I think enables les cross chain in their actions in a way that a we see today of A A minimal level in terms of like kind of bridging. But I think intention interrup ah is something is going to be turbo boosted by kind of fast, fast.

What one thing i'm saying in the international space uh, is that it's increasingly finding ways to be abstracted and kind of pushed into the background. And if um bridging costs also go down significantly because the cost of capital going down significantly, that's just another way that we can just can hide the cost of of bridges.

If if bridge cos coes from ten cents to a ten percent, like you can kinda like sneak that into just like A A fee somewhere and high that so that's pretty interesting. I I want to really tap into what I think is kind of the main course of this upgrade, which is scale, scale, scale, scale. Um do you having like kind of numbers that you can give us about like what what you're doing to the role of space or what you can do to the role of space? We have a sp one integrated into the o stack.

yeah. So I think ander from conduit is kind of the opinion, which I agree, where we're going to have thousands of role pse on the theory. And that's really how we're gonna reach the massive T P S, the massive scale that we need.

And we really see that today. We're basically every big application or company like base. You are road going. They are all launching their own chats ah.

I think something you said earlier is that today with all these different rolls is really hard to make them in a Operate like bridging is a huge topic in the ecosystem, and our probability fragmentation is like a lot of what's in the authorities narrative right now. And it's it's like negative narratively. And I think zk really helps solve that.

Basically, if you have every roll up being A Z K roll up, you don't have the seven day nonsense anymore, and you just have all the roll ups talking to each other in like an hour. They can verify each other. Zk proofs, you get inner ability within an hour in the worst case.

And then in the best case, you have teams like across or their zero who can just fast bridge and uh basically the way that works as they issue kind of like a they kind of front the capital to the user and then they settled in the background. Now if you talked to heart from across today, he'll say his life is really difficult to all this infrastructure because he has to manage all this capital um for seven days across all the roller. So that really sucks for him and his team and IT sucks for any team that's like trying to set up these vast bridges or.

You know um chain abstraction layers or whatever. But it's Z K like that. Sundays becomes one hour, which is literally over one hundred.

Improvement and IT makes all those teams s lives easier. So the biggest thing I excited about is kind of to fix all the problems with the serum of fragmentation. And in the rope, we're going to need chain obstructions. We're going to need all these bridges were ginning, all these liquidity layers to make all the ropes feel like one chain. And I think that will happen for sure.

And I think the way that's going to happen is that it'll be a thousand easier all these teams to kind of managed their capital and manage the bridging and liquidity and money across all the different PS when all the rolls can settle and talk each other and one hour and settle seventies. So maybe the summer zed, they think actually having fast finalities and Z K level finalities. One of the biggest things are holding back system from feeling like one unified. Okay.

this is amazing. This is why we wanted to have both guys on IT is because um I thought this I think they've thought this was like a distant future right again, it's here and now like i'm kind of asking um what the like um I mean is the bad news here like this seems like such a no brainer for all of the optimistic roll up chance to just upgrade at some point, right?

Like why wouldn't they all do this? So um you're telling me that we get Better in their probability one year. Um you like one hour interrogations and like we don't have that without a period, we get to not worried about all the complicated fraud proof a code and by the way, fraud proof were kind of a clue.

E anyway, right? Just like IT felt like at the entire times like no one wanted to say optimistic rolph just like using some clue, kind of like, you know is Better to replace that with cropt graphed whenever weekends we have a ups and then uh, capital efficiency improvements anyway at the end of twenty twenty five. Is there any reason that all the all existing optimistic roll pse don't just like upgrade? I've talked uh to the arbitrium team and they they have seemed in the past to be uh a bit less bullish on A K like other teams. So I don't know they'd be a hold up and hold out. And if so, if so, why would they like is there any downside to this?

I think if you talk to the optimism team or the orbital team, they actually agree with you and they thinking game. I think the poly, the biggest disagreement that and and have with them is the time scale. I think the optimism team in the orbit room team that maybe all the rope so B Z K in like three to five years I going to get you ran that IT should be the end of next year.

Um I think attack is finally ready. It's actually like cheap and fast with us. P one. And it's also really easy like the development experience, a customized ability, the update ability is really, really good with S P one. One thing to say is the suck is pretty new.

Like S P one only went live on mean that in August and you know we only got open to sting working. Um we demoted in like late August, early september and then we only recently got stuff unity in production. And there's A A long cycle to take something from a really promising approval concept production.

We worked a lot with the conducted on that um even like late october earlier this month. So I think as with any big tick advancement IT like takes some time for these big companies like optimised biton to kind of understand be like oh is actually real oh, it's really running. Oh okay.

let's use that. They don't want to be first. Get right OK. But does this do anything for you of the ultimate stage progressions in terms of like the level to centralization of of your roll up? Does incorporating, like you converting your optimistic look into A E K.

does? Does IT do anything to advance that cause? Can you get the stage one faster.

stage two faster as a result? Yeah um most run stage zero actually. So most um role of us deployed on the role of a service platforms are not actual using the fulta of technology because IT is pretty complicated to set up.

IT requires large bones um you know who's running the chAllenges and there's a lot of questions around that. Um and I actually think there's this kind of myth that falls process and garden N Z K. I actually think there are a lot more complicated. The you're totally right to call IT this like clue technology um and there's a lot of hidden costs associated with what's going on there, including the bond period, capital and efficiency of bad. So yeah, I think basically like all those rolph today are at six zero when they adopt a saint, I think theyll be at stage one, which is the dramatic improvement versus just think about .

he said so one guys one part of the a theory road map. Uh, many of the ef developers just in drag, we'll say like it's left up to the layer tools and that's really a lot of like the order of magnus de of scale and reducing latency and maybe we can of fill in that part of the conversation of how like this model, the zk model completes the rest of the picture of the theory um like layer to scaling road map. Uma, you said Z K is the n game. Um uma, I think when human talks we're talking about like, okay, here's one individual chain and we're going to just like juice that thing up to the max and then we're going to turn to Andrew and we like and then i'm going to do that for ten thousand more chains. So maybe uma, we can kind of go back to that part like again, like can you articulate just the narrative, the vision for how you can take this in a scale of chain to a psychological conclusion?

yeah. So natural question is, if I have a really, really high T P S chain, like how S Z K kind of work, like does IT become really, really expensive? And the answer is actually no.

Because if you have a really hydro s chain, there is some fixed cost for even generating the proofs at all, and that's actually really cheaper. Andrea saying it's like a couple thousand box of month and that numbers going down like day over day. Um and then there is like kind of each transaction has approving cost associated with that.

Uh and it's pretty so much of D A like every transaction today pays a little bit of money for posting D A to a theoria. In the future, every transaction will pay a little bit of money for D A and also for proving the proving cost to scale with the number of transactions in the chain. But it's kind of people should think about IT as every transaction paying its little bit to the overall proving costs for the entire group.

And those provin costs are really ships. So for example, for an R C twenty transaction that's like twenty or forty eight gas, uh IT ends up being White, hundreds of accent IT is up being bless. Than a tenth of an improving costs.

So I think that actually might be comparable to the costal paper D A when blobs are Priced on target. And for you know more experiments of transactions like a ducks swap, it's like a couple tens of a scent. And then at the top end of transactions that are millions of gas, it's like around one. And although all those costs are honestly pretty cheap on compared to let what users on base even paid today, I think that ever transaction cost on base is like a couple sense, uh, especially when you factor in priority fees. Um and so the I think over all the proving costs actually have really nice scaling properties for very high T P S chains.

Oh this uh you like you said, this is a brand new technology that we are just a testing out and all technologies iterate and improve, can you to simulate us the future of the the a cost structure of this like whole text tag as a kind of mature is gets Better, improves, like how much how much juice is left to squeak here.

I think there is a lot. Um so you know six months ago, I think well a year ago, people anything this is possible, they Z K B M to be too. So if you just take rust code and stick in in A Z K B M and try to prove the E V M IT would be like way it's IT would be impossible.

I wouldn't even finish in time. They would take like this. Then a year ago um I think IT was like millions of dollars per year to even prove like a theory, an blocks or prove any of this stuff.

Then when we first release the saint um I think all this stuff would have taken like dollars. So I was like ten is more expensive. And since we first released the things in february and ask me one in february to when we um to today, we've prove our performance and costs by text.

So that's pretty significant. And I think over the next year, there will be another tanee that comes out from like Better photography, Better algorithms, you know even Better rust code. So overall, I still think there is like a tank left um if not much more and hopefully that quite the private cost are like almost zero. So users don't notice you.

So you're talking about the the term. I don't fully understand what IT means is like the cost of proving needs to go down before we can do X, Y, Z, right? I hear that repeated uh, about like distant aim futures in all sorts of discussions.

Is that effectively what you're talking about, the cost of proving like kind of like going down? And why does that matter? Why is that significant in in the scheme of like unlocking the potential here? And like when you say IT goes down, how does that go down? Is this like A A more laughing or we like improving some hardware somewhere like that? This is something i've not quite understood, but like you guys are the zk experts so maybe could check some light on this.

Ah Z K definitely has its own mos law um where the costs have been going down by tennis like every year and that comes from a bunch of different things. Uh is certain ly comes in part from like Better hardware. Like when we first started, we were using C P S.

Now we use G P S. Um IT also comes from Better crop top phy and algorithms. So we're like innovating on the Z K front to make our algorithms just more efficient. And that just comes for them like being smarter and like thinking harder about how to make all this stuff theoretically Better. Um and so the combination of those two things is what's leading to these like tana xs every year .

and do we expect that will continue? Is just kind of like know you see those trips like more law, of course, is a famous one in computer technology. But there's also like genome sequencing and sort of you know the cost to sequence a genome cost billions.

Now it's like, I know or be down into the thousands and that will get into hundreds. How much more can we freeze out of this proving costs like through hardware acceleration and software algo improvements? Do we have you know many years of this to to expect into the future?

Yeah, I mean, it's happened for like the past five years. So I think there's no reason to think that won't continue. Ah so i'm still brought the mistake that we still have like orders and magnitude to squeeze. Um and I think definitely again, if you look at S P one from earlier this year and now there was like a tank, I think if you look hopefully this time next year, they'll be another tank through variety factors.

Um I think one thing the point is like if you got if you look at A I uh if you look at GPT three versus G P T four versus like the new G P, whenever they put out GPT five, you kind of see a sumer thing where the models just get Better and Better and Better and it's like really astonishing and remarkable. And I think a big reason for that is like those models had the right form factor where anyone can talk to them in english and they like speed back out, you know, smart words, basically. And I think the case finally arrived at like the right form n factor, where you just put a Normal code and you get out proofs. And now that we have this like final foreign tor, that's really flexible, that's general purpose that can prove any computation, that can prove any software, um we can just take that form factor and basically like turbo accelerated and make IT faster and cheaper because it's like it's the correct like final form. So I think that's like the unlock to enable the o .

and cost get really cheap as they will. We're of this then. So like what does the average crypto user get out of that? Do their Z K roll up transactions like get cheaper, like ten x per year ah do they become like is that what we get? What how does everyone benefit in cypher from really cheap proving cost?

Yeah the transactions will get cheaper. It'll have more security in some cases as they will upgrade from having zero security and relying on a multi sig to have an actual security and everything will be verifiable.

Um I think like verifiability is like key corner and crept a right like the whole point of all the systems are building is it's decentralized, is transparent, is verifiable and what S K now we can just make a lot more things verifiable. So every world will be verifiable transactions very IT can all talk to each other. They'll be seamless.

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Build, go head and discover a flexible modular stack on cartelli and build you are most powerful, ambitious project yet. Visit cartelli dot I O slash simple and simplify your block chain journey and start building today. So uma, I think, represents the vertical scaling strategy in this conversation.

Andrew is the horizontal here. So Andrew woman just gave us the road map for how she's going to allow us a chain to scale to his logical conclusion with being verifiable into care. You are going to distribute this technology. You are the distributor. Can you talk about condo, its role of like democratizing access to all the bigger brain stuff that who is building for sure?

And then one one thing that I think wasn't mentioned, but I think is important in kind of vertical scaling topic is lena y um and so right now takes about forty five minutes. We we can correct me from off there, but about forty five minutes to generate the proof when that goes down to like thirty minutes, fifteen minutes, even something as real time is like one minute.

I think that's where cross chain communications starts to get really interesting in today. We're relying on basically interpret calls, the front capital when you have to prove that something happened and you can actually have double proof on both sides. I think that starts to get really interesting in terms of kind of be unique, primitive and removing trust from the evolution and ultimately, like what we're building here, scalable systems that don't require trust and that a verify ability.

And I think the very bn corner stone, in addition to obvious the costs is is a lencs of generating cut these, Bruce, um in terms of distribution at the way that I kind of think about Z K and kind of a serum in general. Um you know we have so many different role frameworks, right? And they all have like different ways of communicating the street to a serum.

And you even probably felt this at the defcon interpret summit, right? As you have these different frameworks, how do they all kind of talk to each other um and kind of the interface is really um can I withdraw to a thorium and with a seven day kind of optimistic chAllenge window? Um it's very difficult and very slow and very expensive to do that.

Um and there are like some solutions like super chain is maybe a good example where they're trying to find a way to get faster kind of native in our up working with an optimistic kind of a for proof. Um I think one of the and like there's a good story from A W S where when they were in the company, um instead of a kind of teams reaching into each other s code bases and like making modifications, they define very clear E P I boundaries and that was how E W S kind of scale. I think Z K with fast finality as the potential to do this for all the chains across the darian, right? So you no longer have to tropez the implementation of particularly you don't need to know about another role state or you need to know that you can have fast finality and move capital out of that roll up a starting with an hour today.

Maybe he goes to you know five, ten minutes in the future might not being kind of the ultimate interface where you don't have to know any implementation details, but you can easily move and transaction across, uh, change seamlessly cut of on the theory. And so that I think more than anything is kind of what we're excited about is ah yeah again, like the risking and kind of decoupling these chains and enabling a flashing innovation and different types of kind of rops across the area. And I I really .

like that metaphor. I remember hearing IT like once before, and I think it's worth kind of going over IT again and its significance uh the metaphor of like internal A W S teams, this was about like um cross team CoOperation, communication compatibility with like amazon working itself as an org structure and bezos the leader here is like learning that like different components of like the AWS team would like different teams would talk to different teams, like teams of five persons talking to another team of like five persons and like a different part of the org.

I think there's another like famous BIOS quote of just like yeah like your team needs to be able to share two pizzas and if that if you can't feed your team of two pizzas, then you need to like break apart of team because you're going to like slow down. So you like these like small modulate kind of teams uh and the the story here is that um he said he wanted to have these teams stopped talking to each other because that slows down progress and so there should be like API n points. These teams if you want to talk to another team, if you got to talk to their, you don't go talk to the team, you go talk to their API and that's what scaled coordination internally to amazon um and what allowed like amazon to become like the gargan n suan that IT is.

And you're extending this metaphor to roll ups like stop heart, stop going into like the code base of these uh roller teams start stop looking like what their internals are like. So you can figure out how a couple there just it's a zk proof, just like hook right into that. And this is like extending this metaphor or just like this is just how efficient cross chain communication can happen faster, lower latency with like stronger assurances. Hi, what can you add to that?

And four hundred percent. This is really, I think, the execution of the role of centric roadmap right in the theory um is kind of like AWS and like how do we get these different teams of these different parties that are building on top of different im to collaborate in ordinate in a way that provides a seamless of interface and kind of h experience for for the unusual.

And I think like just to take a very excited example, like you know, the optimism and arbitrary code bases are diversion in terms of how the approach rops IT might be tough to get those two teams so kind of work together. Um what's U K like kind of doesn't matter, right because a theory um is that like unified interface, Z K is the technology that enables that kind of fast finality and kind of really the glue between kind of the communication. So I think that when they say the case， then game, I think is really true, I think would be really underwater as how fast time to get here. And I think you a credit to ask you one and. Great team fork and Z K for make that habit.

So Z K Prices are kind like the restful A P I that allows like all of these .

different like rope to a standard. So basically the in the validate proof that enabling fashion communication uh and so optimistic roll up by the construction with the chAllenge me and kind of censorship of residence requirements will always need a very long kind of chAllenge period of product period yeah and .

so this is kind of the core thing is fast, fast resting whenever we talk to you xing fragmentation uh solution that that's been brought up in in recent months um new polygon s egli uh and whenever I like, we've asked about, okay, what's required for everyone to participate in like this idea of shared interrup ability between all of the rops and kind of an eglah type standard.

Rather it's a polygon standard or something else, like just something that uses that tech. Always the answer is like what only Z K robs can participate, right? And I I think that's effectively what you're saying.

But like this gets a fast path to all the optimistic groups to become z caps. And then they can all interOperate roll up to roll up without going back to a theory. Main net is like kind of a glare type construct. Uh, is that support of what you're saying here.

Andrew? Yeah, I think there's so there's gonna be like, uh, so angle is like a kind of customer implementation that they're going to work on that is going to able additional features. What i'd say is what Z K provide is a minimal kind of kind of interface in A P I so that anybody can communicate with anybody um and so angular is going to be uh for no ager specific chains in the same way that like no super chains for super chain specific chains. Um what a with E K enables is kind of the lowest common denominator. A without kind of high .

over one potential problem that I might see. Arbitron loves their orbits, a optimism, love their super chain. Uh, and you guys are presenting this like alternative solution and there is a classic X K C D M of we have fourteen different and proper abilities and ards, uh, polygon once their aglaya now we have this like fifteenth and sure it's Better.

Um but how do you actually convince the market? How do you convince uh, adoption of the standard when optimism has just been so hyper? Focus on their own internal system and has orbital.

I think with um superchain or orbit or a glare like Z K is not competitive. IT just like helps accelerate all those things. So especially with something like a glare IT really relies on every roll lup being Z K but I think aglare can actually uh a comedy any stack.

So uglier you can have O P stock chains connected to uglier with O P saint, you can have um any train that has A K proof connect to uglier. So it's a super general and it's unique, enabled by k and also of by the way, they're building out with us people to um same with super chain like super chain is kind of two things. One is this like protocol for shared sequence saying and in a op IT like real time basically to really make all the changes of the super chain feel like one.

But then there is like settlement of all the super chains and making sure that like you know, the validity of kind of having these cross chain super chain transactions are preserved and that can be done with the Z K proof. So super chain one day can use Z K, and that i'll just make all their lives Better basically. So it's actually an accelerant not competitively reason .

why I ve been like kinda arish on a interpret ability between the layer to bed in a theory like one hurdle that theory um later choose is going to have to have to get over for me to get like bullish on. And rock was the fact that there was a lot of social coordination more than was technological ordination. But you might think about what you're looting to is like there is no social coordination here IT is actually we can just go back to the tech and is actually just like adopting superior tech. And what results out of that is just Better in trap ability is erect.

Yeah, totally. I mean, tech forms are easier to solve in social problems. And I really like ryan said about Z, K, being, like the restful A, P, I of roll ups like each roll up.

If i've approved for O, P. Roll up and I would prove for an arbitrary rollup, then those two robes can talk each other. And I kind of doesn't matter. Like the teams don't like each other, or like, know there a lot to building a protocol is just A A proof as a proof.

I love that. Uh, the classic biton mean about this is bit on his money. For enemies like bitcoin is is trusted between enemies.

Like two enemies can transact using bitcoin. And you know optimism arbitrium not enemies know y've had their we've had their tensions. And so like maybe maybe the you know sp one, the zk proofs is crowing communication for teams that are competitive.

Now I want to brother this for a second to a topic that's also near dear to uh my heart and our hearts and area when listening party bank list who is in the theme space, which is the the this concept on the the more distant a term future road map of a native Z K roll ups and since we have some uz k experts uh here maybe um what one one of the things in the future and one of the hopes for a serum is that the execution layer on the l one actually develops to the point that we can like sark fy the E V M as like Justin drake likes to say, in addition to likes snark fy the the consensus layer and i'm wondering from your perspective, huma, what is necessary from A Z K perspective to like allow that to happen? So can we have a uh native Z K E V M on the layer one a using this type of tech? Would S P one be involved in that? How close or how far wave are we on that?

And like another thing that i've heard, which is like a new proof, cost proving costs have to go down in order for this to be actually practical. Anyway, where are the constraint the bottle next? How soon are we to that vision of A Z K roll up on the layer one?

Yeah, I think there's a few components. Uh, one component is like the proving costs, which actually you're pretty cheap. So I think we did some numbers, and we think to prove all of the theory for an entire year would be a couple hundred thousand dollars like that. Well, under a million dollars that would be that's actually not that cheap at all compared to like the rest of the costs, what people pay on chain. I think the main blocker today for an intrined C K E V M is len cy.

If you want us to be part of the protocol, then you need real time proving of a theory, an blocks, so that when the proposal proposals of block, they can also include a proof of what the blocks like outcome is and like approve what the next status. And for that late and see is super important. I may need to be able to generate a prove in less than twelve silence of a iterum block.

Uh, so I think the next T S Z K is actually non only cost. It's actually like this real time proving lencs thing. And I think where we're not quite there, but i'm pretty optimistic that over the next you know year or so, we'll be able to hit that you think over the next year.

So we'll be able to hit the lencs of, like to say twelve seconds surrender to like make this possible because that's now the constraint is not proving cause actually it's just like lencs of of proving yeah what else needs to happen for? Like is that the only constraints we get? Those two things? I imagine some of this has to be more battle test IT.

Because when we're talking about like to playing this across like a four hundred billion dollar network, a stakes are a lot higher. So is that another like how do we know when it's ready? This tech is actually ready to be deployed to to make name sure we can experiment these layer tools. But um will that take some time as well?

Yeah, I think that's a really good point. The security of this stuff is super important, especially for a really big in there. Um um and I think S P one helps with that because when you try to prove the execution minute, they are in back with us p one, you're taking ref and reva, which is like Normal rust code and proving IT with an S P one.

So uh, you're not handcock this complicated contraction for the E V M. You're just taking Normal rust code, improving the E V. So that makes a lot more secure because like ref is an actual no that a lot of people are running.

So I kind of like reuses, it's actually used in practice. Um but I think as we want itself, obviously, you know that has to be more battle tested. IT has to go through audits.

Um IT already has gone through out, to be clear, but he has to go through more audits and then the authorities foundation recently launched this twenty million dog grant program for formal verification of Z K vm. And that can also really help with security and making people feel good about stuff. Um so I think you're right that for this to be in shine and then being net layer, they're definitely need to be uh what of conversations and work around that?

And should you have any takes this like .

native rops yeah I mean native rops unless educated on I think like what's nice about what we have today is you have a lot different opinions and a lot of different like uh, implementations and people get to opt into the implementations on the trade ffs, that they care about. So I don't know quite as much about like entring one role of implementation. That to me seems like a premature optimization. Um but I think in terms of a native K E V M for the letter one, I think that is obviously kind of the end game. I don't quite know when we're gona have that, but you know we have a lot of discussions today about performance on later one and what IT takes the host, a very decentralized kind of network.

We enable the solo staker and like everyone kind of ark to eat IT to which is having a decentralized network making a performance faster blocks which is also gonna the uh a kind of of center pro d map。 We're onna need to get to Z K because Z K enables you to run a much lighter kind of validator right？ That really just proving or urge kind of verifying the proof of the execution.

Versus leading to do the entire execution themselves. And that today like ultimately the bottom that on getting uh you know more folks a capability in the works, to me case in game in almost every capacity. I think the core question is like when does he get cheap enough? When does the little ency get fast enough to really enable uh, the types of kind of real time proving that, that we need to enable .

that as we wrapped this up. And thank you for your time with and of the spin, fantastic. We may be bring this to a close. I want to ask you you guys a broader question because like so when we do episodes like this, I get even more excited about etherium in the rope centric red mac because um the end game of of Z K delayed across the ups. Now h sounds like it's like much faster than I anticipate.

And that's because the ecosystem is working in parallel across like many these things in like uma like what looks to us like an overnight success and sudden it's here and we can just convert our optimistic roll PS into the zk PS. I know you've been working like terrorist ly uh for years on this, so it's like probably doesn't seem a surprising, but to me it's surprising. Uh, I want to ask you guys a uh, question about the sentiment and narrative around the theory because i'm going to like it's not great right now.

Okay, Prices down, people aren't feeling good. Uh, you, David, mention parasitic alto. You guys have heard that narrative. But in general, people are like fading a serum and and the vision here and like the ropes tric road map and the choices in the product decisions that is made. Um what's your take on this? Maybe just open IT up in in general a to to your take on the really bad sentiment around the theory right now for first year.

Um what I think the road central Brown map is like, totally correct. I think if we want to build the world computer, it's not going to fit all one machine. I think that's totally ridiculous.

And that is this one approach. And I think IT has some tradeoffs in the short term where I like short term seems good, it's working. But in the long term, if we really want to put all computer on chain, it's very obvious that IT has to be distributed to across many machines.

And the only way to do that in a verifiable way is with zk. So I think to me, actually the world center map is exactly corrupt. It's like to maximum scale.

If you look at any other system in any computing like paradise, you've had this like horse zon tal scaling. And the way we do horizontal scaling in black chain that's verifiable is with k. So i'm actually I think the court this is is correct. I'd like the right now, there's a lot of like growing pains we're going through like our adolescens fees where the role lobs are actually now they're working and like now they have users and now now there's many different teams that are battling IT out and they're not talking to each other and it's kind of awkward. So I think like actually having fighting in the roll center road map is a sign that there is actually something to fight over, which is, I think actually good.

I do think we do have to get to the point, though where we kind of get out of that phase and get to everything being really high tp and everyone talking to each other and not having the slight kind of awkward growing pains again. So that's like the thing i'm excited about over like the next year is like actually getting to unification and in our Operability across the ups. And I think you can will be a key, but I think the fundamental road grapes is actually totally correct and will actually scale and .

and the test of time. I I agree with a lot of that. I think the we're still so early in of the robot we launched six months ago and uh, they they wash, they're free and were starting to finally see kind of Price discovery there to me IT seems little, my obie, to look at the feeds generated off of like a new product and do not think about like three to four five years from now. Um and in some ways like I always like to show people rolled up w WTF in terms of the amount of T P S and like m gas a second you're doing.

You guys put that together, right? great. We're just looking at that with the recording .

with just in rake performance based ashford. But I I think what IT shows is one we've scaled the three me like fifty exercise, but if you compare IT like three hundred four hundred tp s with like VISA alone, right? Does like fifty thousand tp s if you look at facebook and stand, they are doing like millions or hundreds of millions of T P S.

Just the amount of stuff for are doing is tight. Uh, and so to think that this is the end state, uh, and that this is all that there is, to me, is very bio pic on cyp done general. And like we believe in a world in which, you know, on train computer once h and that the role of central map is the way to achieve that in kind of a seure, decentralized way 啊。 And so ultimately, there is going to be a trade off the spectrum.

Theoria has always been very kind of, you know, on the central persistence and of the central ization are of things. And we believe that if you're billing trip to those are some pretty important primitives, h IT. Takes time to scale out. But I think with innovations like S P one.

where we're .

getting sh.

IT takes some time now, I guess. Uh, uma, Andrew, thank you so much for back to us all that Z K. And the exciting developments.

thanks.

Thanks nation. To let know, cypher was risky. Could see what you put in, but we are headed west.

This is the frontier. It's not for everyone, but we're glad you're with us on the back this journey. Thanks A.