Episode 57: Interview with Bill Reifsnyder- Former Pro Runner & Founder of Camp Runabout
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Welcome to Chasing Life podcast where we talk about fitness, running, career, and life tips to inspire you to live your best life. I'm your host, Sarah Kane, and I hope you enjoy today's episode. Welcome to another episode of Chasing Life. Today's guest is Bill Reif-Snyder. Bill is a former professional runner with Nike, and he won the 1989 and 1991 National Marathon Championships.

At the time, he was ranked second road racer in the world by Runners World in 1991. Bill still holds some of the fastest times ever run by an American for the 15K, 10 miler, half marathon, 20K, and 25K distances. In addition to his professional running career, Bill has over 30 years of active lifestyle marketing experience.

Bill spent five years in Germany working on global brand marketing for Adidas Running, three years heading up sports marketing for the running category at Adidas America, and served as vice president of marketing for Boathouse Sports and G-Form. In addition, he is the owner of VO2 Marketing and founder of Camp Runabout. Welcome, Bill. I'm excited to finally have you on my podcast. We've been talking about it for a while. Yes, we have, and it's good to be here.

Now you have a lot of accolades. So I want to just start by saying like which one, whether it's career or being a former professional runner, which one are you most proud of? Being a dad, probably is my most proud accolade. But I think as far as my professional running career and my

professional career equally. I mean, because I've taken the same drive and the same passion once my running career was over. And then I just kind of put that towards something else, which was my professional career. And I think the same things that made me a good athlete allowed me to do well in the professional realm.

And what specifically you think was a skill set or mindset or something you were exceptionally good at that kind of carried over? I think to be a good athlete, you've got, I mean, I think it's a lot of things. I think, you know, you have to have a lot of drive and a lot of confidence, determination. You've got to, you know, you've got to be willing to take risks and not be afraid to fail. You know, you just have to get out there and be a go-getter. You know, I do better on the edge of my seat than I do in the back of my seat.

And I think that just kind of comes from my competitiveness as a former professional athlete. Yeah, I mean, that definitely makes sense of kind of the nature, you know, carrying over to the workplace too, of just kind of wanting to be the best or be your own best and kind of competing against yourself. So I want to kind of dive into your professional athletic career. Sure.

You ran mostly in the 80s and the early 90s. And as I mentioned, you hold still hold some of the fastest times ever recorded by an American. So how did how did you get started on your running journey that led you to become a professional athlete? I started it. I actually started in in class in ninth grade. I had never run before, but there was an announcement on the loudspeaker.

that said anybody who wanted to run cross country at the high school next year go to the cafeteria because the high school coach was down there signing up people who were in junior high school who are going to be in the high school next year so he's recruiting for the team i had no idea what cross country was i had no desire to find out or to do it but i wanted to get out of class so i went down and signed up and then i had a buddy named scott wateroff was on the baseball team and i was going to play football to high school

I was about the same size as I am now, but I didn't lift weights all summer, which I was supposed to. So my buddy talked me into going out to the team and the rest was history. I just, you know, within two weeks, I was number one man on the team. I almost quit at that point because everybody who had been there for a while and worked their way up to kind of being the first and second and third, all the seniors, all of a sudden this young newcomer came in and kind of upset the apple cart. So no one really

talk to me and you know they weren't I mean it was short-lived my coach talked to me and then the number one guy at the team is actually one of my best friends and you know running is a thing where it's it's not like anybody who wants to be a world-class runner can train like that and be a world-class runner most of it is god-given talent and you've got to be fortunate enough to be given to be blessed with a good cardiovascular system you know you have something called your

You know, your VO2 mass and your anaerobic threshold, which is, you know, it's kind of your body's ability to utilize oxygen. So if you and I ran next to each other and we breathed in the same amount of oxygen, I'm just going to be much more efficient at utilizing it for the activity than you're going to be.

Then above and beyond that. That's why I was able to walk on the team. I had that, I didn't know about it. I was just lucky to find what I was good at. Then by the time I graduated from high school, I was a three-time state champ and I went to college and I was a four-time All-American. Then I graduated and I turned pro and I just trained that summer. By the end of the summer, I'd run a couple of races and had a Nike contract. Then I ran for Nike professionally for the next 10 years. What was life like as a professional runner?

A lot of running, I'm assuming. It was good. Yeah, I know. I ran, you know, I ran, everyone's different. You know, there's not like, you know, it's, I mean, some runners did super, super high mileage and some others did lower mileage. I mean, lower was still high for the average person, but I ran between typically between 100 and 110 miles a week, pretty much every week. I ran most days, six days a week, sometimes seven, twice, twice a day.

I get up and do a workout in the morning and then I would just hang out and do whatever. I don't even know what I did, nothing. I can't remember back that far. I didn't want to do anything too strenuous obviously because I would have another workout in the afternoon. But it wasn't just going out and running on the roads either. Twice a week I was on the track, doing track workouts. Once a week I was on the tempo run to train your anaerobic threshold.

And then once a week I was doing a longer run of 20 to 30 miles. With all that running experience, what was your favorite distance to race? I liked kind of mid distances, things like from 15k up to 25k.

So 15K, 20K, 10 miles, half marathon and 25K. I just think for some reason that's where I exceeded and that's where I still have some of the fastest times at those distances. I was just really good at those distances. I had a different running style, had a really big high kick, which I mean, I had won two national championships in the marathon, but because of the big high kick, I don't think I was the most efficient runner over 26 miles. A lot of marathoners have more of a shuffle.

And I kind of wasted some energy with such a, I almost kicked my butt when I ran. So not the most efficient, but I was still able to run pretty well regardless. But I just, and then the shorter stuff is just too short for me, 10K and below. I could run a decent 10K, but that was still getting a little short for me, but that kind of stuff in the middle.

I just, you know, I don't know if it was just my biomechanics or my training. I trained like a distance runner, but I also had a buddy at the time named Aaron Ramirez, who was an Olympian. He lived only a mile from it. And we trained, we trained together.

So when I would do a lot of my speed workouts with him and you know I was stronger than him but he was faster than me. So he would pull me through the fast stuff I could pull him through the long stuff so I think that kind of combination of speed and strength is kind of what made me better at like 10 miles and a half marathon.

And one of the 15Ks that you ran pretty frequently was the Utica Boilermaker. I did run Utica, yes. Yeah, your name is actually in the annual booklet that they put in every runner's packet. Okay, I did not win Utica. I was second one year, but I never won it.

Yes. But it's a great race and it finishes at a brewery so how can it not be a good race? Sure, sure. Yeah, they have a little blurb about like a year that you came and you dragged a friend of yours and it was a female who ended up running or winning that year. Yes, yeah, I was dating a girl named Jill Hunter back then and she was the 1991, I was, and I think it was 1991, I was ranked second road racer in the world by Runners World. She was ranked first female road racer in the world.

So we had a pretty fast household that year. With all of your running experience, what's a piece of advice that you wish you had gotten when you first started and or that you would give to runners now? Boy, everyone's different once again. But I mean, if you want to be good, I think the number one thing is consistency.

Just kind of getting in, you know, getting out there and not missing days. You know, but I mean, once again, I think the good thing about our sport is everyone's in it for a different reason. Some people want to get from point A to point B as fast as they can. Some people just want to get out there and, you know, everyone's running. You go to Boston Marathon, there's 24,000 people in the race, there's 24,000 stories. Some people are running for a cause or in somebody's memory.

Some people are running because of weight loss. Some people are running just for the camaraderie of being around other like-minded people.

But I think for the people who are more serious, consistency and then also learning to listen to your body, I think is a big thing. I think a lot of people over train, so it's learning to take your easy days easier or even if you need be, take a rest. I mean, I kind of use the pyramid training where over the years and the

The miles that I ran accumulated from day to day and week to week, month to month, year to year. And that built the base of the pyramid. And the wider my base, the stronger I got in all sides of the pyramid being equal, the wider your base, the higher the peak you could reach.

And so you're really not going to miss anything if you miss a day here or even a week. I mean, my wife is the runner in the family now. And then every now and then she'll have a forced injury. She'll be forced to not run for a week because she has an injury and she freaks out and she thinks she's going to lose all her fitness.

and then it's she comes back at the end of the week and she's running better you know or two weeks and she's running better never just because she's allowed everything to kind of to kind of recover and heal and rest and everything and she's been running long enough like i said um she's not going to lose a lot of fitness and if you lose a little bit of fitness i used to take

you know, two weeks off after a marathon and just let my body fully recover. And, you know, you come back and you just feel a little awkward, you know, initially, but it comes back fast and your fitness comes back with, you know, really, really fast. But, you know, I think it's, and it's all the little things. I mean, that, that a lot of, I didn't do, you know, stretching every day. I was horrible at that.

Probably drinking more water than I drank. It was horrible. And then listen to your body. And I think nowadays, I also think that people rely too much on technology and they get out of tune with their body. You

You know, I just know people who just like, oh my gosh, I mean, if they don't, if their Garmin's not charged up, they'll literally wait to go for a run until it charges up because they feel like if it's not recorded electronically, those miles don't count. You know, and back then I didn't, I mean, I had a, I just kind of regular stopwatch, you know, but if you, if you gave me, you know, if you gave me my watch and you told me to go out and run,

620 miles or 627 miles or 645 miles. I mean, I knew what that felt like. I could do, I could, I could, you know, I could run that pretty much right on. Or if you took my watch away and you told me to run 10 miles, I could pretty much do run that right on. I would just kind of really in tune. And that's important, you know, because

I mean, at my level at that time, there's a very fine line between running as training as hard as you can and being, you know, being as fit as you can and being injured. You know, my, you know, our goal as a lead athlete is you want to kind of toe that line and walk it. You know, you want to be as fit as you can, but you don't want to be injured. So that's where it was very important to kind of listen, you know, and just, I mean, I remember one workout in particular, and I was in really good shape. And I think this might've been that year, my 91 by this year.

And I was living in Albuquerque at the time. And there was a Duke City Half Marathon coming up, which was at 5,000 feet. So it was a tough race. And they had some good people coming in. But I had gone to the track. And for me, I was going to run a couple, like four times a mile.

at 440 pace, which is really easy. And that's really easy pace for me to run for four times a mile with a minute recovery. And I tried to run the first one and I just, I wasn't even close. I was just, you know, just dead in the water. And so like, I said, all right, well, I'm just going to cut it in half. I'm going to run 200s instead of 400s, but run the same pace. I'm going to run 220 pace. And I tried to run at 800 and I couldn't run it.

And I knew I was in good shape because I just run to Duke City and I just want it, you know, so I literally walk, you know, walk off the track after that took a week off and came back and then started racing well again, but my body was just telling me at that time that, yeah, you need a break.

And I listened to it and it worked out well. Yeah, I think that's a really important message. You hit on a bunch of different things. One, I love how you said that every runner has their own different reason for running, which is one of the reasons why I love having a podcast so that I can have a platform to hear these stories and share the stories of everyone. And I just...

really enjoy hearing everyone's different reasons. Two, another question I had prepared to ask you was how you felt about technology with the professional runners now. So you kind of touched upon that. Yeah, I'm not saying it's bad. I just think you can be overly dependent on it sometimes, right? I mean, I did sometimes, not very often, I did sometimes wear a heart monitor

But I wouldn't wear it on my hard days. I would wear it on my easy days because I wanted to make sure my easy days weren't hard. And so I'd set my heart monitor at 135 beats a minute. And if it got over that, it beeped and I knew enough to slow down. But I wore it more on the recovery days than on the hard days. Yeah, I think that's a great reminder, too, of on the easy days to not focus on the pace, but to focus on your heart rate. Because if your body's not

recovering or maybe you're overtired or accumulation of miles or whatever, your heart rate's going to jump even if you're going at, say, a pace that you would normally go as easy. Yeah, and that's one of the signs of overtraining, right? It's just if the heart rate is higher than it should be even when you're either resting or on some of your easier runs, you're probably overtrained and you're just never getting fully recovered. Yeah, and especially like I know this morning when I went for a run, it was particularly warm. It's

warm and humid in the northeast right now. And on my warm up, I could tell my heart rate was increasing. And even though I was going 20 or 30 seconds slower than my normal quote unquote easy pace, I was like, all right, I got to back it off even more because of the heat acclimation. And so it's like,

That's where I've really tried to become more aware of my heart rate and, you know, versus trying to hold a certain pace. You know, thinking about that is that there's two things, right? There's pace and there's effort. Yes. So if you're going out and you're running eight minute miles and you're running it on the flat, you know, and your heart rate is X beats per minute. And then if you try to go and maintain that eight minute mile and you're going up a hill or is extremely high,

your heart rate is going to be a lot higher. So if you are using, you know, if you want to keep your day, it's an easy day. I mean, then you go by the heart rate. So if you're going up the hill or if it's really hot, you keep it at 135, your pace will probably slow down a little bit, but you're still getting the same amount of effort. I mean, your body doesn't know. All your body knows is that your heart rate gets up to X and you keep it there for a bad amount of time.

I mean, that's why cross training is great too, right? I think that's another good thing I would tell people, especially as they age or once again, everyone's different. I mean, elite runners are built and they're biomechanically correct and they can put in a lot of miles and it doesn't pound them. But I mean, I think people, you know, I've talked to people after a race and, you know, they're just kind of amazed that I can run so fast in the marathon and I'm

And I'm amazed that they can, you know, because it's not an elite athlete running fast in the marathon. It's not that special because we were a gift with some natural talent and we have good biomechanics. And that's kind of what we were bred to do. But the average person going out there and who's out there for two times or three times

as long, hurting probably twice or three times as much and still finishing 26 miles. I think the inspiration in a marathon, if you're at the finish line, starts about four hours. And I love watching those people come across. I mean, it's just, it's amazing because they're not built to run 26 miles. They probably didn't train maybe the best way to run 26 miles, but they're doing it and they're out there and they're finishing. And you can just tell by their emotion, you know, how much it means to them.

- Yeah, I definitely agree with that. I was having a conversation with someone recently, actually it was around the Boilermaker and how the Boilermaker has elite runners there, but how majority of that field is just everyday runners. Maybe they train for the race, maybe they just participate in it for the community feel of it, but that's what brings the crowds, right?

the fact that everyone has their own story it's fantastic yeah i mean i loved it i used to love you know not a lot there's not a lot of them but i mean honolulu marathon i've run that six times and that was one but it was an out and back course so the fact that you know it's like yeah because i don't get you know you're the runner you line up the front row they take off and you know it doesn't matter if there's 10 people or 30 000 people behind you just kind of it's a big loop you just never get to kind of see

the atmosphere or enjoy the atmosphere of the race. So I did, I did love out and back courses. And I think the other thing that's cool about our sport is it's one of the only sports. It doesn't really matter what you play. If you're a baseball player, you know, you're never going to,

You're never going to play a game with Derek Jeter or you're never going to play a game with Michael Jordan, but in running, you're out there, everybody's out there and we're all still in the same line, whether you're a world record holder or a back of the packer. We're all in the same line with the same effort and doing the same activity.

you know, and it's very non-judgmental and very supportive. And we all get to the post-race party and sometimes it's hard to tell the elite athletes from everybody else. Yeah, I absolutely agree. That's one of my favorite parts of the sport as well is like, we're all out there running the same course. Just some people finish it faster than others. I mean, the advantage is elites have in a race with Boilermakers, we get to the beer faster than you do. Yeah, that's true. No lines, right? So,

One of, I think, your favorite topics to talk about or share is about Camp Runabout. And I have had most of your accounts, or actually like almost all of them, in previous episodes. And so I would love to hear your story of how you came up with the idea with Camp Runabout and what inspired you to start it and how it's been going. Sure. Well, first of all, I mean, I grew up in the endurance industry. I've been an athlete. I've been a coach.

I've been an executive director of a large marathon and half marathon in Washington, DC. I worked for Adidas in a running category both in Germany for five years and Portland, Oregon

In the last 10 years, I've had a marketing agency, which I really focus on brands in the endurance space. So that's the first piece of background. I mean, I kind of had a skillset to kind of do this, right? And then how it really got started was Shark Tank. I was sitting in my living room one evening back in early 2016, early 2017, and there was an episode of Shark Tank about somebody who was pitching an adult summer camp.

But it was different. It was younger kids who would go and, you know, just kind of a debacle and a lot of drinking and a lot of partying. But they kind of just kind of heard a little bit about how they did it and what their, you know, what their strategy was. And I thought, man, what a great idea, but with a different twist. So, yeah.

You know, I started, you know, literally the next day I started to research locations and facilities where I could do it. My goal with Camp Runabout is, you know, I've mentioned before, not everybody likes, you know, running is not about getting from the start to the finish as fast as you can. It's not. That's not why most people do it.

They don't want to go out there and set PRs or try to win age groups because most people don't. It's about the relationships and the camaraderie and as much about the post-race party as it is the race. You just have to do the race to get to the post-race party, unfortunately. So I wanted to...

create an event where like-minded people, all ages, all abilities, all shapes and sizes could just come up to the mountains for three amazing days and have a good time.

Yeah, and it's not a running camp. It's called Camp Runabout, but it's not a running camp. You know that, sir. You've been there a couple of times. It's an adult summer camp. So it's a summer camp with a running theme. You know, our motto is a little running, a lot of fun. That's pretty much what we do. We do a run in the morning and we have a featured speaker. It's running related. And, you know, we'll do maybe one kind of breakout where I'll do a session on running.

training techniques or running form or something like that. But other than that, it's all fun and games. It's literally adult summer camp. So it's kayaking and canoeing and stand-up paddle boarding, zip lining, high ropes course, arts and crafts classes. We have massage therapists there. We have fitness classes like Zuba and boot camp.

and yoga and then bonfires with s'mores all the quintessential arts and crafts classes and then in the evening the benefit of having an adult summer camp is that we have nightly entertaining and adult beverages so yeah so like i mean it couldn't have i mean it turned out exactly what i was what i was hoping for i mean my absolute favorite thing of camp roundabout every single time is

Seeing people check in and seeing a lot of people are attentive, a lot of people are excited. A lot, you know, some people come in groups, some people come alone. But by the end of the three days, everybody, it's one big happy family that's all kind of meshed together and having an amazing time. And there's, you know, tears on the way out because people don't want to leave, you know? And so that's what I enjoy. That's why I started, right? I just, just seeing people come together in the way that they do.

to share the experience. Yeah, I certainly can attest to the experience. As you mentioned, I've been there and when I decided to go, it was kind of like on a whim. I overheard someone talking about like, oh, this camp in Pennsylvania where you can run or you get drinks in the morning and have fun activities at night. And I was like, oh,

for something to do i had gotten a bonus from work and and so i looked into it and signed up kind of on a whim and went alone but what was the comfort to me where i'm someone who's very introverted so like going to parties or going to places i don't know is not really something i usually do but what i found comfort in was knowing that i was going to go to a camp with other like-minded people and so i felt like that was kind of just at least bottom line like i could

I can talk to people about running like. Exactly. Right. So everyone has everyone. Everyone walks into camp with something in common. Yes. And there is there is a mutual

topic of conversation from day one. And if you come by yourself, which you can probably attest to, we usually put people who come by themselves with other campers in a cabin who come by themselves. And within an hour, we're all best friends. And I know in your case, you guys actually now come back to camp and you all request to be in the same cabin again. And that's cool. And people keep in touch and do Zoom calls. And so that's really cool too, because we get campers

Our last camp had campers from 30 different states. So it's not like it's a local thing. People jump on planes and fly and use it as their vacation or as we like to call it, their runcation. And they just kind of drive into, they're flying into Newark and then they still have to rent a car or share a ride. We have a ride share, Facebook ride share group as well. And then they have to drive an hour and a half. So when they get up in the mountains, they're up in the mountains. It's a cool thing to see all, like I said, all shapes, sizes, ability levels, ages,

I mean, we're in our second location now, but our first location, we had a 72-year-old up in the flying trapeze. Pretty cool. Yeah. Yeah, I remember, like, I was actually, I think, at my camp, like, on the younger end of the average age of people who were there. So I'm in my mid-30s, and I think the average age is, like, in the upper 40s. 42, 42, 43. Yeah. Yeah.

So I think that's-- 90% female. I keep teasing. I'm going to have to advertise as a guy saying we have a campful of fit women or something to be more guys. But I don't advertise it that way.

way. I mean, I don't advertise it only women, but it just seems to be something where all the ladies like to grab their friends and have a girls weekend and leave them at home. And just, you know, it's amazing. It's a pretty crazy time sometimes. Yeah. Yeah. That's definitely an interesting turnout too, especially like, I mean, like women are almost the majority of entrants in races now. So they're not 90% of the field, but it's just interesting that like they're

the campus so full of women. - I think everything turned out just how I wanted. I had no idea that the demographic was gonna be 90% female. It was that way on the very first camp and it's been that way every, and it's always about the same. It's always right around 90%. - Yeah, that's so interesting. It's such a great idea and such a fun avenue.

what do you think is the most challenging part or something that people wouldn't think of if they're like oh I can do my own camp like what is kind of the behind the scenes right I mean there's so many moving parts I mean like I said I'm lucky that I had the skill set so um you know everything that I do I've done for my marketing agency clients so I mean I mean from day one you know whether it was

designing the brand identity and the logo or building my own website. I mean, I did all that myself, but there are just so many. It's retaining vendors, you know, a lot of negotiating of contracts, finding facilities that, that one have the, have the right equipment and facilities and structures and cabins that are going to deliver the experience that people are paying for and expecting when they get there. Then it's negotiating that contract to a way, in a way that I can keep the price

I mean, some people say, wow, you could charge so much more. And some people that have anything comparable charge two, three times as much. But I would rather, I try to keep the price where I have it because I would rather have it be more accessible to more people. And then I think having more people also

boost the experience when you're there. Instead of having 25 people, our camp in September will have 125. And that might sound like a lot to some people, but you got to remember, this is a 200 acre facility with 40 or 50 cabins and yeah, we're not bumping into each other. So it's really a good number. It's funny because you wouldn't think this, but the single hardest thing that I do for having a running related camp is finding a place to run.

and i never thought that either because i mean our group is too big to take out in the roads i mean it's like a small road race i probably have to get a permit and plus i don't want to because you know people it's not safe and i just i need to you know obviously look out for the safety of all the campers as well and so anywhere else we go we typically you know most of the camps that i've checked out don't there's not a place to run you know five miles or so a day

from the camp itself. So, you know, then I'm just kind of out looking for parks and lakes and bike trails and then contacting folks and trying to get permits and, you know, and it's hard. It's hard. I mean, you know, a lot of folks just like, no, you know, I had a nature conservancy last year, which I thought was going to be pretty good for us. You know, I filled out the permits and then it was presented to a board. And then ultimately after a couple of months, they said, now your group's a little bit too big for what we are and we were denied. So,

Right now we run on the state game land, which is really for people who are hunters and trapping and fishing, but they've made an exception. And I had to, you know, even that was kind of working and kind of going up the ladder and getting references of people I've known and kind of name dropping a little bit just to allow them to let us to do that. So that's, you know, we, you know, we run on a service road, which is, it's a gravel kind of service road. It's out in the back.

It's a little hilly, a little challenging, but it's good. We make it work. We're lucky to have it. Once again, camp's not all about the run. We kind of do the run in the morning and then we just go back and we want to get back and start the fun. When I came to camp, the first morning that we were all there, like almost

I feel like almost everyone got up ready to go for a run, but then by the second morning or the third morning, the attendance just drops off. For those of you listeners that don't know the schedule, the first thing you check in at that evening is pretty mellow. We usually have somebody with a guitar. We have an open bar. People have traveled far, and some people are a bit tired, so we just keep it low key. The bar is open. We have the fire pit over for s'mores.

and we're just kind of chilling and listening to music. And then day two is a full day. And then the evening of day two, you know, we'll have our theme party and that could be anything. And in June, that was a hoedown. And in September, it's going to be an 80s and everybody comes dressed. And I mean, I was a little bit shocked at that too, because I'm like, these are adults, they're coming from all over the place. They don't know each other. No one's going to bring a costume. If you don't wear a costume, you're going to feel out of place. Everyone gets dressed up.

And then the final day is, you know, once everyone gets to know each other, we have our variation of karaoke, which is, it's not your typical karaoke because it's not somebody getting up there. It usually ends up with one person singing and then, you know, half the camp up behind them dancing and singing along with every single song. So it's pretty fun to watch.

But the nights do get long and the runs do get a little bit less people on each subsequent day. But we do get, you know, people get out there and they do run and it's pretty impressive. Yeah, I can't wait to get back. I've been counting down the days since I was there in September of 2019. And that's the biggest compliment because in any given camp, we'll have 25% of our campers are return campers or alumni. We love our alumni.

So, you know, people literally I mean I just opened up registration for June of 2023 and I already had 25 people and I think 20 of them are alumni so people kind of leave it and they don't want to go, they just come home and they sign up for next year, right away so that's, you know, to me that's the biggest compliment that somebody can give me.

Yeah, I think you're doing a great thing, and I hope it continues for many years. No, thank you. Yeah, and then, so the next one will be opening, I tried to open one up in North Carolina, in the western part of the state, out in the Blue Ridge Mountains, during the pandemic, but then, you know, at the same time that I was forced to cancel three out of four years, which you were part of that process as well, so it wasn't the best time to open, so I will be opening up the North Carolina Cane Pier in the next year or so.

Yeah, that'll be great for you to have that expansion. And I know some of my camp runabout friends are like in the Virginia area. So they might end up going down to North Carolina or we even talked about the North Carolina camp was like on the horizon. We're like, oh, maybe we'll like hop back and forth. We'll like rotate.

different camps each year. Well, that's a goal. I mean, I think you're going to, you know, we do any given camps, but it's going to attract quite a few people from that general area. So, you know, the Pennsylvania camp does get, you know, if you look at the, I said there was 30 states, but then, you know, the top state is going to be Pennsylvania, typically. But, you know, the goal here would be in a North Carolina camp that, you know, we draw more people from North Carolina, but

I think just giving people that option or return campers who we have a lot of just given them the ability to go to a different you know same experience but in each facility is going to give you a different experience as well. They're going to have slightly different you know the cabins are going to be different in the, you know, the, the activities that they have will be different like the camp we had first had a flying trapeze that can't be have now doesn't have a flying trapeze but they have other stuff that the first camp.

didn't have. Yeah, so that's the goal. And then after that, I'm going to go west and probably up in the Pacific Northwest, the state of Washington. That would be after North Carolina. But I have camp locations scattered out up in New England, the Vermont area, kind of in the Great Lakes area around Wisconsin, Rocky Mountains, so Pacific Northwest. So as I launch them and fill them enough, then I will move on to the next location.

Sounds like you have quite a roadmap ahead of you. Yeah, yeah, hopefully we'll get there. We kind of talked about like advice that you give to runners, but thinking kind of back on your life in general, as a dad, throughout your career, whichever avenue you want to choose, what's been the best piece of advice that you've ever given or received? Wow, I mean,

I mean, now, because I'm 60 and I'm an older dad, I have a five and a half year old daughter. You know, I would I would my advice would be like, you know, enjoy every day and live it, live it to its fullest, because it's amazing how fast your days and days and years go by. Right. And how precious they are. I think when you're younger, you don't really, truly enjoy.

appreciate that. You know, you think you're going to live forever. You know, you're young and numb and invincible. I mean, at least I was, you know, but I think, you know, when you look back at it, even my running career, people always ask me, like, what's your best

you know, what's your best memories? And it's not, and I think people are a little taken back because they expect me to say, oh, it was winning my national championship or winning this big race or winning a lot of money in this race. And it's not, it's the relationships that I've done along the road. You know, going back to the stories that you hear, but going back to the, you know, Utica year after year after year, Honolulu Marathon six times. I mean,

You know, my first race I ever ran as a professional, it was a New Haven 20K. And I was just, once again, not an invited runner. I drove up the night before, but Bill Rogers was in it, Greg Meyer was in it, all the Kenyans were in it. And I took off at five miles and no one knew who I was, so they let me go.

And then they realized it wasn't going to come back. And then I was just running out of fear and people were chasing me and I barely held them off. But I went back six years, six more times, well, five more times. I ran six years in total, won five times. But it's not the fact that I won five times. It's the fact that I will go back year after year. And it's almost like you're going back to family. You know the people and the people know you. And so it's really, it's all about the relationships. And I think that's what life is about, whether it's as an athlete or a person. I think it's the people you meet and how you treat them.

you know, in the relationships that you build along the path and the stories that you create together that mean a lot, whether it's with your kids or your friends or your family. At a certain point, you'll look back and you'll realize how special those moments are. But if there was a way as when you're younger and I didn't have that ability, like I said, because I thought I was going to live forever. But I mean, just to kind of appreciate, you know,

appreciate them when you're in the moment. Yeah, I like that. Thank you for reminding us of that. And speaking of stories, to go back to Camp Runabout a little bit, what's been your favorite story that has come out of Camp Runabout besides the friendships that you've seen built or creation of something new and seeing people come and attend? I don't have, I mean, I don't really know if I have a single favorite story. I mean, every camp is

Yeah, you think after a while we'll become anonymous because it is a bit, you know, for me, I mean, I'm, you know, it's, you know, I do the same thing, you know, I work on, I work on the camps all year long and I prepare for them and then we kind of go and we set it up. But once we get there, even though it's the same thing, every camp is different. The dynamic is different. The chemistry between the campers is different.

you know i mean i mean it just seems like really there was a lot of um these last couple of camps of a lot of post-covid rage going on so people were just like tired of being locked up and just not and they just ready to get out and have a good time and um you know i just i mean i i thought that i had done well from year to year as far as calculating the alcohol but i wasn't even close the last two camps it's daily runs getting more alcohol but you know it's good i mean it was it's it's good because

I mean, in that perspective, it extended beyond what Camp Runabout just is in a way that it just kind of gave people who were very desperate to have some sense of normalcy back in their life and to get out and to be around people and to have a good time and forget about COVID for a while. You know, I'm glad that we could fill that void for folks. And, you know, and we had a great time. I mean, these last two camps were just absolutely amazing.

So a fun question I like to ask everybody is what are you currently obsessed with or loving right now? It doesn't have to be fitness related. It doesn't have to be about camp run about just whatever, anything. You know, I'm going to go back to, you know, them a predictable thing. I it's my daughter, you know, it's just, I mean, she's five and a half and she changes every single day, every single day she's doing new. And she just went from preschool. She started kindergarten two weeks ago, you know, and she just, just watching her.

grow as fast as she's growing learn as fast as she's learning and just amazing, amazing me with things she says and things she does every single day it's a miracle I mean, I mean she is she truly is a miracle because I mean we didn't like I said I'm 16 my wife is 10 years younger than me and we didn't even think we were going to be able to have kids and we're like,

let's give it a shot and it happened immediately happened immediately so it's kind of god's gift saying you know here you go so yeah she's everything to me and that's you know if i had to pick one single thing and i mean second that would be it second place wouldn't even be close whatever second place would be but yeah my entire life is about my daughter stella right now

Yeah, that's very sweet. And five and a half is like such, I feel like anything past like 18 months, like kids are just so fun because they're moving and just what they do. I mean, it's amazing. It's like, how do you even, how do you even know that? I don't think I knew that. How do you know that? Yeah.

Yeah. Or like, and then second place and obviously camp, you know, it's, I mean, I love my job too, because everything is running related, but camp is kind of my passion. It's what I do for fun. So, you know, I love everything. I mean, if I could do camp full time, you know, and hopefully I'll get to that point, I would be a very, very happy person because once again, it's, it's, I'm a creative person. I have a creative background and, and it's a creative process putting together the camp.

There's a lot of different moving pieces as we talked about a couple of them, whether it's vendors or facility or sourcing things and designing t-shirts. I mean, there's a lot of hundreds of moving parts. But when you get to camp and you see all that work and it comes together seamlessly. And a seamless camp for me would be you as a camper never knew there was anything. Everything was absolutely perfect.

I mean that's my job on the fireman to camp I'm just, my job is just to be you know if there is a fire which hopefully we don't have any, not not not a literal fire. But, you know, but my you know if anything does come up that you know it's you know I, it's my job and the staff job is to put it out before anybody even knew existed. Right. And so, if.

And luckily, you know, we don't, we really don't have that at all too much. I mean, little, little things here and there, but, but that whole creative process and seeing the culmination and just seeing happy, smiley people who've bonded over three days and are sad to leave. I mean, that's, you know, that, that, that'd be my second passion. That makes sense for sure.

So my last question is, what does chasing life mean to you? I think it's living it to its fullest. I think whatever you do, whatever you're going to do, you should give it your all. If you're going to commit to doing anything, it should just-- for me, it doesn't really matter what that activity is. If I'm going to commit to doing something, I'm going to try to do it to the best of my ability.

Yeah, the same thing. I'm very competitive, you know, but I always have been. Not just running. I mean, I don't care if we play cards or bowling. I mean, I want to win every time. My wife hates me because I never let her win in anything. But at the same time, I'm not, I don't get upset if I don't win because if you beat me, then good on you because I didn't let you win. But, you know, I did. But that's just kind of how I've been. I think it's nothing I was taught or learned. I think I've been that way.

Since I've been a little kid, just had this kind of competitive edge to me. And, you know, that's just kind of how I tap a life. Just, you know, if I'm going to say yes to doing anything, if I'm going to commit to doing it, then I'm going to give it my all and do it to the best of my ability. You know, I think if you go back to the running analogy, I think the worst thing is not having...

I don't think it's bad to have a bad race or be disappointed. I think what for me personally was when I was disappointed was when I got done with the race, I didn't do as well as I wished I would do because I thought I left something on the course.

right so but if i felt like i gave it my all i got my butt kicked today that's okay right i'll get them next time but if i felt like i you know hey i didn't do as well as i did but you know i had a lot left in the tank and i left a lot out there then that that that's what personally would have would upset me and that you know but i take that philosophy into kind of all aspects of my life and going back to an earlier conversation i think that's also what's helped me succeed professionally i've kind of learned that along the way of like when it comes to races like uh

the last in-person marathon I did, I hit the wall at 23. And while it was disappointing to kind of have hit my limit without finishing the marathon strong, what I did take away from that was realizing I gave it my all up until mile 23. And I didn't leave anything out there versus if I would have held back and, you

you know, been conservative, it's a whole different feeling than to as much as, you know, maybe people don't want to pull out of a race, do not finish or they hit walls or whatever the case may be. I think it is

a more positive feeling to be like well i gave it my all that that's just where things are today yeah there's no shame in that i mean i would say that that the one exception to that sometimes is well not exceptions to the overall story but i mean i think you mentioned the marathon and i i think that's where you want to be conservative if ever yeah because i think that's i mean that's a that's a fundamental mistake that the average person makes in a marathon is they train for a long time to do it

And then they, you know, there's a lot of common mistakes people make. One, they're there, it's a big marathon, they're so excited, the gun goes off, you know, and they just go out way too fast in the first couple of miles and you don't get that back. Right. You know, I know people who think that, you know, hey, wow, I feel good because it's mile five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten. And they feel great, but there's a long way to go. And they think maybe today is my day. I'm going to, oh, I'm putting time in the bank.

You know, I'm running faster than I even thought I could run, but that comes back to the vital later on. And, you know, the 10 seconds a mile, they're running too, too fast early in the race ends up being a minute or two minutes a mile slower than, you know, when they hit the wall at the end of the race.

Yeah, so I think that's a trick. And I think the other common mistake people make in a marathon is that they go and they qualify for the Boston Marathon after all that training, and then they go and walk around the marathon on the expo and they spend for three hours the day before, and then they go to the starting line with tired legs. Right. I mean, I usually tell people in a marathon, actually, whatever, let's figure out realistic. I mean, running a marathon is, it's about getting from the start to the finish as you

efficiently as you can. So the best way to do it would be to kind of figure out what your fitness is and what you can run and go out in that pace and keep it there or even go out a little bit slower in the beginning and negative split in the second half of the race. You know, especially if it's your first marathon, I think it's better to come away with a positive experience than it is to kind of be crawling on your hands and knees the last three miles.

Yeah, I would agree with that too. And I do aim for like negative splitting. My problem with that marathon I was just talking about where I hit the wall at 23 is I was trying to follow a pacer and they were even splitting more or less. And that's not what my body is used to. And so instead of holding back and just kind of keeping the pacer maybe in my sight for the first half of the race, I tried to stay with them and it backfired on me. So it's definitely like listening to your body and running your own race.

race exactly yeah yeah right yeah yeah you gotta know you know you gotta know you know i think clint eastwood said a man's got to know his limitations but yeah in one thing everyone's different right it's not like hey what's the best training program i mean if i mean i did coach people um i had a team called team endurance when i looked back in albuquerque and it was just kind of you know kind of like camp runabout um all you know all ages you know men women all ages and abilities and

And it was, that was fun, but every single person was different. And I did personalized training programs and it's not like, none of them were the same.

you know so i had to kind of sit down you know i sit down with each person and learn kind of about them and you know any injuries and what their training's like and how much you know like i said not even elites not even two elites train the same everyone everyone's different i mean i think there's some general training practices if you wanted to be really good is you know training your vlt max and your aerobic threshold and getting your strength and kind of timing it you know until you peak at the right time and everyone no matter what level you are elite or

or otherwise can use those principles to get better, but no one's going to try to say, you know, it's just everyone's going to benefit from something that's slightly different. And everyone's body is different too. So even if the running paces are the same, I mean, we talked about right at the beginning of this episode, right? Of

we each take in oxygen differently and how our body processes it or how the form is. Yeah, just how efficient you are, just whether you lean too far forward or lean too far backwards or you have a sway from left to left and your arms cross your middle. There's a lot of things that go in there, whether you're a little bit heavier or a little bit lighter. Biomechanics and all that have a big play in it too.

And if you're a little bit off, I mean, running is a tough sport in that perspective because if you have your biomechanics that are just even slightly off, because the repetitive nature of our sport, if you take 1,200 steps a mile and you go out and you run 10 miles, you're just running 12,000 steps. So go to the gym and try to pick the lightest weight and do 12,000 repeats of it. It's a lot, right? So even the slightest deficiency in your biomechanics

could exacerbate into an injury eventually so and that's what happened to me as I've been dealing with two injuries over the last well two years one was like posterior tibialis tendinosis and then same side worked its way up to my hip flexor and so I think they just were working together and it's just everything's everything's connected yep and I know my biomechanics are definitely not the

the prettiest and I work with a PT and I was like, you know, it's a wonder I haven't gotten injured sooner because I'm just all discombobulated. And so I've really tried to focus on

more specific strength training to address my weaknesses and also working in cross training so that I'm not doing as much maybe impact, but still getting the benefit of increasing my aerobic capacity. Yeah, because people think, hey, I'm just going to change my biomechanics. It's not that easy. You run the way you are because of things that are going on in your body.

Right. You know, maybe your maybe your core is too weak compared to your back, or maybe one side is stronger than the other. You know, it's just things. So if you really, truly wanted to try to change a major biomechanical flaw, you've got to address your body and got to figure out why you're running that way. And, you know, something probably needs to be stretched more or strengthened more or, you know,

But you just can't say, oh, I'm going to tomorrow go out and run different. Right, right. Doesn't work that way. Right. Yeah, absolutely. That's some a great piece of advice to wrap up with. So, Bill, thank you so much for your time, for your stories and your advice. Sure. I really appreciate it.

Did you love summer camp as a kid? Do you enjoy running and fitness activities? Then Camp Runabout is for you. Located in the Pocono Mountains of Pennsylvania, this three-day weekend is the perfect getaway for you to disconnect, enjoy some fun activities like arts and crafts, or go for a run with new friends.

Or participate in Beer Olympics, sit by a campfire and make some s'mores. Whatever it is that you love about summer camp, Camp Runabout has it. For more information, go to camprunabout.com. And for a discount on your registration, use code INF101.

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