Did Mussolini make the trains run on time?
08:58 Share

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. I'm Nicola Coughlan, and for BBC Radio 4, this is history's youngest heroes. Rebellion, risk, and the radical power of youth. She thought, right, I'll just do it. She thought about others rather than herself. 12 stories of extraordinary young people from across history. There's a real sense of urgency in them, that resistance has to be mounted, it has to be mounted now.

Follow History's Youngest Heroes wherever you get your podcasts.

When you're part of a military family, you understand sacrifice and support. So at American Public University, we honor your dedication by extending our military tuition savings to your extended family. Parents, spouses, legal partners, siblings, and dependents all qualify for APU's preferred military rate of just $250 per credit hour for undergraduate and master's level programs. American Public University, value for the whole family. Learn more at apu.apus.edu slash military.

Hello and thank you for downloading the More or Less podcast. We're the programme that looks at the numbers in the news and the world around us, and I'm Lizzie McNeill. Ah, Italy. Home of the pizza, the Renaissance and my in-laws. It's a beautiful country, but with a dark past. Arguably one of its darkest moments came when they were under the rule of this man. We want to defend the valley of the past with our hands and our teeth. We want the valley of the past to be

Benito Mussolini, ex-journalist turned fascist dictator. I didn't realise that career path was an option. Good to know. Under Mussolini, Italy went from a democracy to a one-party police state. Aggressive foreign policy drained their economy, ultimately driving Mussolini to join forces with Hitler's Germany and Imperial Japan in World War II. It did not turn out well for him. Towards the end of the war, the Italian dictator Mussolini met a violent death at the hands of partisans.

His was a legacy that should not be celebrated. Yet, there's one positive that we hear repeated about him time and time again. So, today we will answer, did he or did he not make the trains run on time? At a little station just inside the Italian frontier, officials waited for the arrival of the Nazi dictator.

He came by armored train for the meeting with Signor Mussolini, their first meeting since Munich. The idea that the trains ran on time, that everything would be efficient and Italians were not disorganized the way people said they were was a big public relations push for the regime, especially abroad.

I'm Ruth Ben-Ghiat. I'm a professor of history and Italian studies at New York University. I'm the author of the New York Times bestseller Strongman, Mussolini to the Present. But where did this claim come from? Strong evidence-based research? The claim that Mussolini made the trains run on time comes from Mussolini's regime itself.

Right. And it was a major selling point for the idea that the Duce was modernising Italy and making Italy a great nation. He had a slogan, make Italy great again. Hmm. Why does that sound familiar? No idea. Anyway, in the interwar period, trains were really important if you wanted to get goods and people across the country quickly. Or

Or relatively quickly. So having a good railroad system meant you had an efficient and competent country. And if you say something enough, people believe it. It did work, especially in America and in Britain. Mussolini was an international icon. This article from the Prescott Arizona Evening Courier certainly bought into it.

Punctuality marks Italian train service. The spirit of discipline which the Mussolini government brought with it is no more concretely marked than on the railroads. Italian trains now run on time since the advent of Italy's young dictator to power. The Italian cracked trains on the main lines cover the distances with minute precision and according to schedule. Special policemen do service on all the lines and are present to prevent theft or disorder.

But was it true? Well, it really depended on who you were and which train you were on. What he did very savvily was to make the lines that tourists used run more on time.

And so tourists would come and kind of ignore the fact there were these black-shirted guards everywhere and forget any unpleasantness they saw in the streets with people being arrested and come home and say, yes, my train ran on time. And so he knew that that would give credence to his propaganda. But we have to think about the context in which these few trains that did run on time happened.

The problem with statistics from this era is that they just aren't very trustworthy. He took over the media and there was extreme censorship, so you couldn't report on whether trains were running on time or not.

Statistics on every facet of production and efficiency and infrastructure were doctored by the regime and false statistics were sent out, as the anti-fascist economist Gaetano Salvenimi pointed out in an article in 1931. So this is the context for the idea that the trains run on time.

And Mussolini actually established the Bureau of Statistics in Italy that still exists today because it was very important to have this kind of politicized civil service who would produce the numbers and the studies that gave you the reality that you needed to create.

And so Mussolini, again, as a former journalist, he really was extremely skilled with propaganda. If reality does not suit your purposes, you create one that does.

He made sure that by creating a new statistics agency and staffing it with, obviously, people who would be loyal to him, he made sure that the outward record of the regime fit his propaganda. And he was very, very good at that. ♪

Right, so we can't rely on the statistics produced by the regime. So let's do what all good historians do. Look for some primary sources, first-hand experiences, such as from journalist George Selders. It is true that the majority of big expresses, those carrying eyewitnessing tourists, are usually put through to time. But on the smaller lines, rail and roadbed conditions frequently cause delays. And journalist Elizabeth Wiskman. I travelled in a number that were late.

Poor Elizabeth. But under Mussolini, the railway network did get better, especially the so-called Treni di Rattissimi, those direct trains that transported important people, such as foreign tourists, wealthy businessmen and politicians, to important places such as Milan and Rome. So we can give him some credit for that, right?

The railway system was a bit of a mess after World War I, but the state, which was then a liberal state, as soon as the war ended, actually made enormous improvements to the rail system because they depended on it for commerce and other things, of course. And so then Mussolini came in and he, like all dictators do, he took credit for the improvements that the democracy had done. Now that said...

He did make this investment in everything to do with infrastructure. And he did electrify the railways in certain areas especially. And he inaugurated these direct lines. And there was one that went between Bologna and Florence that opened in 1934. It was 11 miles. It was double-tracked, went through the Apennines.

And again, 100 workers or more were killed during the construction, but you couldn't talk about that. There were no labour rights. But this was very impressive to have these new direct lines. And so this kind of thing he did. The new improved rail service also wasn't the picture across the whole of Italy. The south was largely neglected and many local lines weren't improved either. The south was neglected as it has been in every government area.

And he kind of gave trains a new political role. There are certain cities, Florence and Rome, that tourists love to go to. And he selected those tourist trains, and especially in the nice weather in the summer, and those he made sure were more or less on time. So, did Mussolini make the trains run on time? No.

Mussolini made the trains run on time that were of interest to his public image, especially abroad. Trains that were used by everyday Italians who he really didn't care about didn't run on time at all. Thanks to Ruth Ben-Ghiat. And that's all we have time for this week. As usual, please keep your questions and comments coming in to moreorless at bbc.co.uk. Until next week, goodbye.

Yoga is more than just exercise. It's the spiritual practice that millions swear by.

And in 2017, Miranda, a university tutor from London, joins a yoga school that promises profound transformation. It felt a really safe and welcoming space. After the yoga classes, I felt amazing. But soon, that calm, welcoming atmosphere leads to something far darker, a journey that leads to allegations of grooming, trafficking and exploitation across international borders.

I don't have my passport, I don't have my phone, I don't have my bank cards, I have nothing. The passport being taken, the being in a house and not feeling like they can leave.

You just get sucked in so gradually.

And it's done so skillfully that you don't realize. And it's like this, the secret that's there. I wanted to believe that, you know, that whatever they were doing, even if it seemed gross to me,

was for some spiritual reason that I couldn't yet understand. Revealing the hidden secrets of a global yoga network. I feel that I have no other choice. The only thing I can do is to speak about this and to put my reputation and everything else on the line. I want truth and justice.

And for other people to not be hurt, for things to be different in the future. To bring it into the light and almost alchemise some of that evil stuff that went on and take back the power. World of Secrets, Season 6, The Bad Guru. Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

When you're part of a military family, you understand sacrifice and support. At American Public University, we honor your dedication by extending our military tuition savings to your extended family. Parents, spouses, legal partners, siblings, and dependents all qualify for APU's preferred military rate of just $250 per credit hour for undergraduate and master's level programs.

American Public University. Value for the whole family. Learn more at apu.apus.edu slash military.