332: Why Every Problem Doesn't Need an App: Using AI to Make Space for Creativity and Purpose with Ravi Malick, Global CIO at Box
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how I get work done leveraging the generative AI and then they figure out how to focus on other things, right? And maybe even the job landscape changes in terms of like we've always been told, hey, you're well, I mean, for the most part, and again, I'm dating myself here, right? You have a job, you have one job, you focus on that job. What if it looks like now, like one person has three jobs, they have four jobs, right? They're able to fill multiple positions. And we see some of that even today.

in terms of folks leveraging technology to fill multiple positions. But I think that, I mean, you talk about real scalability. That's really where things are probably going to end up going. That's the best advice. The future of work, it's not a career. It's a passion.

Good morning, good afternoon, or good evening, depending on where you're listening. Welcome to AI and the Future of Work. I'm your host, Dan Turchin, CEO of PeopleRain, the AI platform for IT and HR employee service. Our community is growing thanks to all of you, our loyal listeners. We recently launched a weekly newsletter. We include additional fun facts and some tips and tricks that don't always get shared as part of the weekly show. If you are not already subscribed, why aren't you?

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Lana's favorite episode is that excellent discussion with Parul Saini from Uber about AI for ride sharing and her journey to the exec suite as a female engineer from India. We learn from AI thought leaders weekly on this show. Of course, the added bonus, you get one AI fun fact. Here is today's fun fact.

Lionel Grayloo published an article at engineering.com with the clickbaity title, Rip SAS, Long Live AI as a Service. In it, he says the future of enterprise software is AI-based agents. He cites recent comments from Microsoft CEO Satya Nadella about how AI is changing user expectations and pricing models.

acknowledges the challenges facing enterprises looking to modernize with AI, including barriers to cultural adoption and the obligation to use employee data responsibly before making automated decisions that could impact compensation, hiring, or promotions. My commentary, every technology transition for the past three decades at least has included the requisite and premature prediction about the death of traditional enterprise software.

Legacy vendors like, say, SAP, Oracle, Salesforce, and Microsoft are easy targets because they sell expensive tools notorious for delivering experiences employees love to hate. Reality is they continue to innovate and are often given right of first refusal by customers because switching costs are high. Expect AI to improve how we interact with traditional enterprise software long before it replaces it.

You hear me say frequently, AI is the new UI, voice is the new app.

SaaS models make churn a constant threat, which creates new pressure on incumbents to innovate with AI. But predicting the death of big SaaS anytime soon is just naive. Of course, we'll link to the full article in today's show notes. Now shifting to this week's conversation, one I've been looking forward to for a long time. Ravi Malik is the global CIO at Box, where he's

A colleague of great former guest Ben Kuss, who is the CTO there. Box, of course, is the popular enterprise content management platform started by Aaron Levy and Dylan Smith in 2005. Ravi is responsible for leading the company's IT strategy, compliance practices, and customer advocacy.

Prior to Box, Ravi was the SVP and Chief Information Officer at Vistra Corp from 2016 to 2020, where he helped integrate three major acquisitions, which collectively more than doubled Vistra Energy's size in three years. Previously, he held leadership roles with Energy Future Holdings from 2010 to 2016, culminating as the VP of Business Technology at TXU Energy.

He holds a BA in political science, obviously, from Brown University in Providence, Rhode Island. Go Bears. He's involved in philanthropic and activities outside work. And as I can attest personally, Ravi gives great parenting advice. Without further ado, Ravi, it's my pleasure to welcome you to AI and the Future of Work. Let's get started by having you share a bit more about your background and how you got into the space.

Sure. Well, Dan, first of all, thank you for having me. It's a pleasure to be here. It's an honor, given the guest lineup that you have to be included as part of your podcast. Yeah, I've had, I guess, a little bit of a different road to the CIO. I actually started my career in investment banking.

trader, corporate finance, really kind of have a finance background, transitioned that into consulting, spent several years in consulting. Before, and I'm going to date myself here, I joined and caught the first dot-com wave and left consulting to join a startup, started off in consulting, wore several hats there, product management, engineering, ended up in sales because I think

I discovered that while I might be okay at coding, going up against engineers, computer scientists from MIT and Stanford and Berkeley and all those places, they're like, you're really good with customers and you can talk about how this stuff works in a business context. Why don't you go over here? So yeah, I ended up spending most of the first part of my career really on the sales side and customer side.

Did a couple of startups, one software-oriented process integration, B2B exchange, and then shifted gears and went to another company. It was infrastructure automation, so way back before SaaS, automating data centers, servers, storage, network devices at scale. And then from there, kind of went back into finance, spent a little time in the financial services industry.

there and then ultimately ended up in the energy industry, specifically power generation and retail electricity, where I spent about 12 years. And yeah, just, you know, fascinating industry, lots of similarities to software, if you can believe it. But yeah, it was, I loved to learn. So it was an opportunity to learn a new industry.

and be a part of, it was like being at a startup, but at a Fortune 500 company. Just the amount of transformation and investment in technology was really exciting. And then after a long career there, I decided to get back into technology and joined Box as the global CIO back in June of 2021.

The culture of Vox is unique is an understatement. We started this conversation with Ben because I mentioned great previous guests in the podcast. I want to know your perspective. What is it about Vox where, for one thing, employees are incredibly loyal and it's just, I mean, it's a legendary culture. How would you describe it in your own words?

It is absolutely unique in its positivity. It was actually one of the big selling points for me. I'd known Aaron and Dylan for quite some time and knew the box. I had been a customer, but was really impressed with how much they have been focused on the culture. It is truly a people first culture where people are at the heart of really everything that we do from the values, the

to how we get work done. And it is a place where you can be your authentic self, which I think is, even in the technology industry, when you think about it, is sometimes tough to do. But just in any industry, to be able to show up as your authentic self, to be encouraged to be your authentic self, to understand that that kind of diversity brings great ideas, brings growth, and makes it a place where people want to show up and engage every day.

I had Nick Maiton, who's the CEO of Gainsight and a friend of Aaron, who famously recorded an episode of Car Karaoke. I think they did ABBA together. Look it up on YouTube. But everyone you meet in Silicon Valley seems to have an Aaron Levy story. You're an insider. Share an Aaron anecdote.

Oh, my goodness. An Aaron and a Doe. You know, Aaron might be like one of the very few humans who can actually multitask on like a different level. I mean, his ability to think of multiple topics and distill them into very succinct messages and thought points is really impressive.

And his energy, he's just constantly on, constantly has ideas, right? And sometimes he'll ask you something. You're like, wait, why is he asking that? That's really weird. And then a month and a half later, you're like, oh, okay, I understand. He was asking that. He just is one of those folks that has the ability to see beyond the horizon. But then articulate, bring that back and articulate that for people.

Many Silicon Valley CEOs are figuratively magicians, but as I understand it, Aaron's literally an amateur magician. Yes, I've heard that. I haven't actually seen any of the actual magic tricks, but yeah, rumor has it that, yeah, he's an amateur magician. I always enjoy talking to CIOs of tech companies.

Because you've got one of the hardest jobs in the industry. You are the CIO of a company with 2,500 CIOs. Everyone's in tech. Everyone thinks they know more than you. How does that make your job a challenge?

Oh, my goodness. Great question. Yeah. So, you know, the challenge of being a CEO of technology companies that you have, you know, at Box, you know, about 3,000 people who want to solve every problem with an application, right? Everything can be solved with software. Everything can be solved with technology. So managing that and reining that in is challenging and getting people to kind of shift their thinking. There's always seems to be this sort of

sort of heightened sense of need for agility and flexibility. Our industry can change overnight. I mean, that's a fact. It can change overnight. We've seen that recently. So getting people to really take a step back and think about long-term bets, right? And where do you need, really need that agility and flexibility? Where does it give you a competitive advantage?

Whereas it gives you the ability to change directions and respond to market needs. It's a muscle that needs exercising, right? And it needs building, particularly as you mature as a company, right? You go through the

maturation process and you're growing and you're trying to scale, having that kind of lens and really taking the time to say, okay, I'm going to think about where I need to be, not next quarter, not next year, but three years from now, right? Four years from now, five years from now, what does the landscape look like and how does that translate to the technology that really runs and drives the company?

Well said. I'd say two of the sub-challenges, I'll pose them each as maybe separate questions, but one of them with today's CIO is that presumably, you know, when you're in front of the board or leadership team, everybody's scrutinizing over your budget and saying, hey, I heard about this thing, this AI thing that can take away some line in your budget. Why

Why aren't you using it yet? So I'll pose that one first. I'm sure this is the first time you've ever heard that kind of accusation. But how do you deal with that when, you know, there's, you know, this AI accelerationist movement that thinks that, you know, you're always behind? Yeah.

Yeah, I love that question because it gets asked quite a bit. But I think you made a point in your opening around the cost of change, right? And the pace of change and where should you be changing or where should you be applying those things? And I think that's important to note, right? I think we're coming into this maybe not necessarily, I don't know if it's the trough or the plateau, whatever you want to call it. But very much a heightened focus on where is the actual enterprise value?

Right. The digital assistant, kind of the personal task master aspects certainly had a tremendous impact. But now I think it's OK. Like, how does this really change the way that we do business? How does this help drive scale? You know, and I think those are the questions when I get asked by colleagues or get asked by the board. It's that, hey, we're thinking about that. Right. We're thinking about how

how we invest in this in a way that is lasting and not fleeting. At the same time, given Box and what Box does, and Box AI and the intelligent content management platform, we're at the core of it, right? What we do as a company and what we do as a platform is really the fuel for generative AI. And so I'm also challenged with how do I make sure that I'm

I'm drinking my own champagne and I am maximizing the capabilities and features of the platform internally and really showing people how you run a company on box, right? And how work gets done around content and really the future of work is around content and AI and how those things need to work together.

So, you know, it's a, it's a fun challenge. You know, it is, you're constantly being pushed. And so sometimes you're, you know, trying to tap the brakes a little bit because, you know, as a kind of going back to the finance background, I want to maximize every dollar that we are investing in technology. Uh,

I want to 10x that. And it's very easy to go and invest in something and then it doesn't pan out. And so I think we have been experimenting. The things that we could adopt and roll out quickly, we have. In other areas, in terms of how does this really drive scalability? How does this change our business? We're being a little bit more deliberate. We're being thoughtful about it and understanding how do these things get stitched together?

You know, how do they really change the way people work? And again, how are we maximizing our investment in it?

That's a long game. It's a long game. It is. And that's the responsible thing to do is to say it's a long game, even though for everyone that says, you know, you're tapping the brake, there's going to be another camp that says, you know, you're tapping the gas card. And they're going to say, have you thought about responsible use of data and security and guardrails? And so I imagine you spend half the time defending, you know, the brake tapping and half the time defending the gas tapping. How do you navigate the other one?

Yeah, you know, it is, you know, I think you've got to remind people, particularly being a technology company, right, that there's a responsible way that, you know, this needs to be used and generative AI needs to be applied, right? You don't want it to be the source of your leak or your breach, right, because you're not managing risk appropriately. You need to

And quite frankly, a lot of it too is education and getting people up to speed and getting them to understand how do your skills need to change? How do you reset your thinking to apply this? I think there's still a lot of fear around

and some of the fear just naturally taps the brakes. And so how do you get those people to put their foot on the gas, right? How do you get them beyond the fear to understand that this actually can help their job, right? Help their work-life balance, provide a better experience, free up mind energy for things that have been task-oriented, right? I think it's

you know, a lot of times in our industry, we, we assume that everybody's a technologist. Everybody plays around with this. Everybody looks at the next new model and tests it. And the, the reality is, you know, a lot of people don't, uh,

A lot of people, they don't have that skill set, right? And so one of the focus areas for me going into this next year is making sure that we're providing that and being... I think people like it when you're prescriptive on some of those things, right? And it's a, hey, here are some examples, right? Here's how you can dip your toe in the water. Here are the resources that you can go use to educate yourself and understand how this applies to your area and how you can

rethink your scope of work or your team or your department or your business unit and apply it in a way, again, getting back to apply it in a way that is maximizing your investment. I wish every CIO was thinking that way, that AI is here to humanize work. I mean, the fact is, it's the tasks at work that...

make us feel like robots that give work kind of the people think it's a four letter word. Right. And in fact, you know, when you take away all the, all that friction represented by the quote robotic tasks that humans have to do, then what's left is the stuff that humans love to do. Yeah. So it's one of the reasons we get along really well is because we share that vision. What's your message to CIOs who feel like, you know, it's, um,

you know, it's replacing humans. It's dot, dot, dot, but who don't appreciate that it's really there to make people better. Yeah, you know, I think it's a make sure you are educating yourself, right? Take the time to understand, talk to people, do the research. You know, and I think it be comfortable saying, hey, I'm navigating this, right? And I'm trying to figure out how we make sure we are being, you know, we're using it to its most effective potential.

effective capabilities. I think a lot of times, not just in technology and implementing new technology, but just in general, when you talk about activities, people will confuse activity for productivity. And I think getting back to that focus of what is actually productive? What is productivity? Are you actually getting work done or are you just kind of pushing the piles around, right? Or checking boxes?

And I think that's where, you know, I see just a real tremendous upside for this and really shifting a lot of the, as you said, kind of the robotic day-to-day activities, administrative work that occurs to, you know, to actually getting that work done, but doing it in a way that doesn't require fingers on the keyboard and the constant checking and those kinds of things, right? I mean, it is...

Hopefully Aaron doesn't necessarily listen to this because he'll probably get on me. But maybe AI helps us get to a four-hour workday, right? Or a four-day workweek or a three-day workweek, right? Because all this work is being done and handled by agents, intelligent agents, right? That are able to interact with each other. And you just have sort of the human check at the end, which doesn't take a ton of time. And

And, you know, again, it's either you're freeing up people their time to do other things, to be innovative and think about things that can help grow a company or can help them grow personally. Aaron is listening, by the way, and he's applauding. He's applauding that answer. Maybe not the four-day work week or the four-hour work day. But so let's go there. So...

So at the level of society and kind of the broader implications for humans, it's a lot of platitudes. And I think it makes sense to an increasing number of people. But there's also the reality. So Ravi is a leader. You walk into your all hands, your team meetings,

And, you know, there's a little bit of apprehension because, you know, every tech company, not just Aaron, but everyone's thinking about what do I do with that productivity dividend? And a lot of, I mean, probably the highest profile is a 5% layoff at Meta, which is doing phenomenally well financially. And yet, you know, looking at delivering, you know, maximum gains for shareholders and made the decision to do that. And

Every C-suite is going through the same process. So how do you walk into that room as a leader and know some of the hard decisions you may have to make and yet try to encourage employees to feel like you're not their adversary when it comes to AI potentially replacing them?

Yeah. Also, love that question because, you know, that is sort of the burden of leadership, right? Is being tasked with making those hard decisions and communicating hard messages. I always tell people that, you know, if you look at how careers progress and if you look at people who have gotten into leadership positions or they started companies,

It's because they saw a challenge and they saw a problem that needed to be solved, even if it meant potentially working themselves out of a job. Right. And I think that's, you know, that's the sort of intellectual curiosity and drive, you know, that you look for in people. You know, where some of the larger companies, right, that, you know, growth where growth was largely fueled by, you know, people, right.

by adding roles, you know, are in a position now where they're, yeah, they are having to make those tough decisions and realizing that they don't need that labor force. But I think smaller companies, I think, have a more unique position in that

How we look at growth and how we address growth can be very different, can be independent of human labor, right? And we're in a better, potentially a better situation where we can look at kind of our labor force and say, hey, you know what? I think I can support, we're 1 billion today. I think I can support 2 billion, 4 billion, 10 billion with the same labor force, right? So I can drive growth without having to necessarily reduce the workforce. And I think that's where

I know certainly, you know, Box takes a very unique approach and that we look at that, right? We look at how can we scale, you know, without having to impact, you know, impact boxers and impact our workforce. I know from our conversations offline that you think of it just like what you said. It's an investment in people, not an investment in not people. It's always with an eye toward how can we make work life better. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

You are in an interesting situation that you interact daily with peers in your C-suite, leaders looking to you to define the internal technology vision for the company. And of course, I'm sure every third, if not every other, if not every conversation involves your perspective on AI. What are the kinds of questions that come up most frequently?

Usually it's, what are you doing? How have you implemented it? And what are the things you're doing? I think there are a lot of executives that are still looking for a starting point. Something that's tangible. And when I say tangible, something that can be connected to a business outcome. And I think that's where, again, getting back to how are you being deliberate about this? How are you being thoughtful about it? We need to make sure that we're connecting it to a business outcome, whether that's top-line growth or bottom-line expansion.

Those are the things that people are focused on, right? Because at the end of the day, that's what we're measured on is how are we improving the business? So usually it's where is a starting point, right? Where's a great starting point? And I think there are some leaders that understand it really well and they have their aspects or dynamics of their business where they see like, okay, I've got an issue, I got a problem that's very definitive that I can go solve doing this. But then it's sort of,

They do that and then it's like, okay, how do I then translate that? What are other areas that I can go apply generative AI to? And so that I think is the most frequent. The next, you know, with the sort of the rise in conversations around the agentic workforce, that's definitely number two, sometimes number one, right? How are you thinking about that? How does that actually work? What does that look like in four years where I'm able to spin up, you know,

1,000 agents, right? I have a seasonal type of business and I'm able to spin up 1,000 agents that handle increased call volume because our business rotates around the holidays, right? Or it rotates around the summer or something of that nature, right? I think that's now kind of how people are thinking, right? How do you manage that? How do you put the guardrails on? And how do you start structuring that? Where do you start experimenting to figure out what that looks like, right? And really, what is nature?

agentic workforce look like, not sort of a RPA plus, right? And I think that's where I see too is sort of people understanding that delineation because it's different, right? There's automation, which we've all been working on and trying to do for the last few decades, right?

This is different, right? This is intelligence, right? A real intelligence behind it, you know, where you have multiple logic paths, right? You're not defining logic paths, right? You're tuning scenarios. And that's, you know, that's different. That's different than really how, you know, we've grown up in IT and in technology.

Very different. Well said. Yeah, we're used to writing software, not having software write software. Exactly. Exactly. So that's how you have the conversations at work. But you and I are both parents and outside work. We're getting asked the same questions by our kids. So when you're talking to your kids and they're saying, Dad, what are the jobs that are left? What should I be studying that will make me relevant in a decade? What's your coaching?

Yeah, it's really interesting. And I use my kids as sort of a testing ground or a sounding board, right? And it's really interesting to see their adoption of technology, how they're using it. And even, damn, I have three kids. They're all about two years apart. So a junior in college, freshman in college, and a junior in high school. One of the first things I noticed, this was a few years ago, is even the separation between the oldest and then the next two in terms of

who still types and who uses voice, right? So my older child, she will still type things in and you search. My two younger, almost entirely, my youngest, if he's typing, something's wrong, right? He's almost entirely voice. And so I asked them, and my older, my daughter's a microbiology major, and I've asked her, how are you thinking about, are you learning about AI and how that's changing? How are you guys applying that?

And so, you know, she dabbled a little bit in comp sci as well. And so they are thinking about they do have those conversations. Right. And, you know, I push them to think, how are things done differently? My younger one is still I mean, I don't think he does anything without using some kind of generative AI. Right. One of the apps or models out there, it is it has already become incorporated in how they get work done. Right.

And, you know, I think that's it'll be really interesting to see when they start entering the workforce. And what's even more interesting, I think, is do they start entering the workforce earlier because they have that skill set?

And they have that ability to understand how I get work done, leveraging the generative AI. And then they figure out how to focus on other things, right? And maybe even the job landscape changes in terms of like, we've always been told, hey, you're, well, I mean, for the most part, and again, I'm dating myself here, right? You have a job, you have one job, you focus on that job.

What if it looks like now, like one person has three jobs, they have four jobs, right? They're able to fill multiple positions. And we see some of that even today in terms of folks leveraging technology to fill multiple positions. But I think that, I mean, you talked about real scalability. That's really where things are probably going to end up going.

That's the best advice. The future of work, it's not a career, it's a passion. It's a skill. It's something you love doing. And when you're surrounded by only other people on, call them like ad hoc teams that come together based on combinations of skills and passions. Wow. That's a world of work that I want my kids to inherit. Yeah.

define the outcome. And then, right? Like, I mean, that's, I think that's, that's what we've always wanted to get to, right? When you think about it, as you progress through leadership, right? How do you, as you get to each level, how do you relinquish the things that you were doing before, right? To level up and manage and coach and define outcomes and let people define the path to get there. I think that, that just accelerates in a massive way.

You mentioned that trend with your kids that, you know, more voice first adoption as they get, you know, as you go down to your junior in high school. Well, I have a junior in high school and a freshman, and I can tell you it continues. That trend continues downward. Oh, yeah. I mean, that, you know, it seems like science fiction when we talk about this.

you know, tight collaboration between humans and machines and like, no, you can go talk to my younger daughter and like, you'll, you'll see that in practice, you know, it's not science fiction. Absolutely. Yeah. It is not, it is not science fiction. It is, I think it's going to continue. Right. And, you know, the things that we think about, you know, five years, you know, you're,

You're going to speak into a microphone and say, hey, I want X, Y, and Z done. And all of a sudden, you define the outcome. And 30 seconds later, you have that outcome through a series of agents doing that work for you. We say casually, your colleague will soon be a bot. And it can seem kind of dystopian out of context. But I don't know. I think that's more like utopia than dystopia.

Yeah. Well, and again, to my earlier point, right? Like, what kind of mind energy does that free up, right? There's sort of been this concern around creativity and what does AI do to creativity? I think it, you know, one, we know AI isn't really creative, truly creative, right?

But how much more does that free up for people to explore their creativity and do things that maybe they didn't have time for? They have passions for art or for music or for other culture. And maybe now you have a whole new rebirth, a renaissance, if you will, of creativity because AI is handling the mundane work.

If you haven't listened to it yet, you've got to listen to this episode from a couple of weeks back with Marcus Bell, who's a Grammy winning. Yeah, I've got that on my list. Yeah, classically trained musician, but he also invented an AI pop star called Raven Light. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, fascinating conversation about the future of creators and creativity. And I love, you know, to me, that's like,

Case in point, you know, anyone who thinks this is, you know, the death of creativity hasn't talked to Marcus Bell and been inspired by what's actually going on. Yeah, well, and if you look at like the evolution of technology, it has always opened up new creative avenues, right? Music, the electric guitar, right? The amplifier, like all those things opened up new levels of creativity. It'll be really interesting to see, you know, what AI, what kind of creativity AI opens up.

Yes, Ravi, I got to get you off the hot seat, but this one just sped by, huh? But you're not going anywhere without answering one last very important question for me. So,

Extend that last reply to a decade from now when Ravi and Dan are back and we're reminiscing about, you know, that time in 2025 when we hung out and it's 2035. What's the thing that has most changed at work that's just commonplace then but today, you know, really seems like science fiction? Yeah.

I think it's this idea and this concept of speaking what you need and what you want from a work perspective, defining that outcome, and then kind of hitting enter or pressing go.

Right. And that occurring. Right. So, you know, again, going back to an earlier point, right, the cost of switching and replacing legacy technology and, you know, the death of software. You know, I do think that the application landscape looks very different 10 years from now. Right. I mean, if you think about applications contain business logic, that's where the business logic is defined. Well, if I have agents that are able to understand and determine that business logic, right.

How much of that do I need? I think it's a situation of you think about the energy and effort that goes into upgrading the ERP today. Maybe that's somebody walks in, there's new features, capabilities of the business change, and you say, hey, I need to upgrade and take advantage of this new feature and extend it into this channel of the business.

Brilliant. And perfect bookend. Yeah, we start off by talking about, you know, AI is the new UI, voice is the new app. Yeah. And yeah, truly, truly, it...

It'd be shocking if it takes a decade for that to come to fruition. It is. You know, it's interesting, right? You look at the history of change and technology and how long it takes, right? And it's not necessarily technology that's slow. It's the people side. It's the adoption. It's the understanding. And we've seen things in the past that come out and, you know, they redefine the space. But it takes time for people to understand how it really gets applied, right?

It'll be interesting to see if that rule still applies to AI or it does compress the change for it to be sort of woven into the cultural fabric of today or tomorrow. Put it on your calendar, 2020-35. You know, it might be, Dan, it might be like

you know, our generative AI selves, our digital personalities. Maybe our avatars. Doing the interview and then we just check the transcript afterwards, right? They're like, yeah, that makes sense. No, let's edit that. Look, we'll be empty nesters. We'll be in Tahiti sipping Mai Tai. That's right. We can do the interview and we'll be on a beach hanging out. All right. Put Tahiti on your calendar in 10 years. There you go.

Brilliant. Well, hey, Ronnie, where can the audience learn more about you, your background and what you're up to?

Oh, goodness. You know, I've got LinkedIn as generally my platform. I've become a little more comfortable on sharing stuff there and sharing opinions and whatnot. So certainly that's an avenue to go. And also, you know, you can reach out, feel free to reach out. I'm happy to love having conversations around technology and the future of technology, the future of work.

Well, there you have it. That's the great Ravi Malik from Box. That's all the time we have for this week on AI and the future of work. As always, I'm your host, Dan Turchin from PeopleRain. And of course, we're back next week with another fascinating guest.