726. The Gift of Neurodiversity: How to Harness Your Superpowers
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Welcome to the Almost 30 Podcast. I'm Lindsay. And I'm Krista. And we're your hosts, guides, and friends on this path. Almost 30 is not about your age. It's about the feeling. All of us are almost something, seeking community and resources to support the rumblings of transformation within us. Our conversations are deep dives, shepherded by our insatiable curiosity and desire for connection, enduring inspiration, and a sense of levity that we can all benefit from.

We're looking to find the magic in the human experience. Buckle up, baby. Your evolution is waiting. Hello there and welcome to Almost 30. Welcome to the show. It's Lindsay and Krista. So glad you're here. Thanks for...

being with us. I know a lot of OGs out there have been listening since the very beginning, over eight years ago, and so many of you are new to the pod. So we're happy you're here. Yeah, we love you guys so much. I'm so grateful to be a part of your lives.

For so long, you're so meaningful. Everyone I meet is always so cool and so sweet. How is that possible? It's amazing. I don't... It's just crazy. They want to get rid of me. I know. They're like, I've got a... Hey, I got an appointment. No, literally, they'll be like, I have to go. And I'm like, oh, we're not going to hang out all night? I'm not going to tell you about my whole life? You're going to tell me about your whole life? I know. Everyone's so kind. We've...

done retreats over the years. We've had events. We've gone on tours. So I feel like that has set us apart in the podcasting world where we've really been able to meet and connect with our audience in a very special way. Yeah, that was like our first mission was to not, like it wasn't to create community, but when we went and did the events, we're like, oh, it's to create community and make people feel less alone. And

Even doing retreats now myself, like realizing that so much of the healing work happens in community, even in metamorphosis, the community, like people want to be seen. People want to be heard. You can heal on your own, but it's like really taking those tools that you learn on your own and putting them out with others and also sharing vulnerably and openly is just so huge. So any who's or what's souls, we love you guys. Yeah, truly. Yeah.

This is a juicy one with a lot of topics that I love. So get ready for a great episode with Lindsay and Michelle Miller talking about everything I love. I'm excited because it felt like – and I don't mean this in a weird way, Michelle. It kind of felt random to have a conversation with her. And then I was like, this is making – when we sat down and when we had like dinner the night before –

I had the intention of connecting on certain topics. And then we had a dinner that went into kind of the last 10 plus years since we've like really, uh, been in each other's worlds and understanding what she's been through and how she's kind of alchemized that into the work she does now, whether it's teaching at a university or coaching people. Um,

And it kind of all made sense. So just to give you guys background, Michelle Miller was a teacher of mine in college. So I was a theater and English major and she was in the theater department. She was also a student at BC about I think 10 years prior. So yeah.

I'll say that. And she came back to be a professor and she directed shows. She was hugely instrumental in my vocal progression in college. And she just met me and saw me and supported me at a time that looking back now, I realize was just such a, I don't know, I was just kind of like a

live wire of sorts. And I don't mean like crazy. I mean, so many people in situations were affecting me in ways that I don't think I truly understood or metabolized at the time. And I think college is that for a lot of people where it's like sensory overload. There's so many opportunities to like go out, be social and party. There's so much pressure to do

so well in college. I think for a lot of people to, you know, make the money that you've spent or your parents spent or the scholarship worth it. Um, I, I felt like Michelle was one of the only teachers that I really like connected with at the time who went beyond just the academic and she actually saw her students. She kind of came in as someone who wanted to

I don't think it's like protect is the wrong word, but to be there to empower, especially these women in the theater department. Theater is like such a... Yeah, it's very physical, very vulnerable. Yes. You're going in and out of character, in and out of self. You're kind of shifting states all the time. That's only part of the conversation, but that was really like profound to me to realize kind of the secondary intention in coming back. But in this conversation, we really do...

dip all over the board, but it definitely comes together really beautifully. So we talk about, yes, we talk about the voice. We definitely plug Christa because I was saying that your voice work has been so profound for so many people. And so...

Michelle does a lot of work with young people in college, and it's really at this precipice of when someone can either lose their voice or truly embody their voice or one of the tipping points. So she works with them doing a lot of nervous system work first and foremost and

Um, for example, you know, she'll do a vagal nerve activation with them to start class. She'll, um, she'll really allow people as well to tune into and listen to their bodies throughout their academic class experience. Meaning some people, I can't sit in a freaking chair for two hours, you know, like needing to move their bodies, needing to sigh to like,

kind of move energy in that way. So that was really fascinating. We also talk about both of our good girl complexes, where those came from in our individual lives. It was really beautiful to come together with someone who I'm

super comfortable and connected to, even though I was at a different time in my life, and to regroup now as adults who have done a lot of healing work and feel very on mission now. Lastly, we do talk about narcissism. She was married to a narcissist.

for years and truly had to start her life over after financially, emotionally, physically. It was really intense. But we kind of focus more on the coming out of that and how she's rebuilt. So anyone out there who, yeah, finds himself in the wake of something like that, this will be helpful. And then going into her career, her initial career into acting and all of that, like

I think for me, I also adopted kind of this like be what the casting director wants. And often that for me showed up as just like being good, doing the perfect audition, carrying myself in a perfect way and not realizing that that's, you know, I eventually realized that wasn't what they wanted anyway. But I just connected that to success.

Rather than just being myself or being more relaxed or just being who I was in that moment. Not needing to be anything else. Yeah, would they see that as a bad thing? Because it's almost like then you're... Yeah, would they see that as a good thing or a bad thing for you to be doing the good girl to casting directors? I think it depends on what you're casting for. But what I learned, especially in TV, commercial, and film, so on camera, there was more of a...

come as you are that was more interesting rather than trying to be what they want you to be. So I noticed like people are getting cast that were just kind of like will come in like, I don't give a fuck. Yeah. Kind of vibe. Yeah. And maybe that's energetics too. I do think there is an energetic to that for sure. Yeah. But you don't have to care. I did this. I read this

What do you do for auditions? You read a script and then you send it in? Self-tape? Sure, yeah. I've been doing self-tapes with Joey. It's like the most fun I've ever had. Oh, yeah. You're the other person reading for him? So it's like...

Oh, my God. Are you even coming? Like, it's like I get to do my voiceover work and I'm like literally sending it. Like I'm sending it to the moon. I'm like, oh, walking upstairs. That's too far. He's like, no, honestly, he's like too much. I'm sending each one of them. Like he's used to people being like walking upstairs. That's too far. And I'm like, yeah, I'm like secretly trying to get the gig. Yeah.

I haven't done, oh man, self-tapes are a whole, that's all our auditions are now. Self-tapes. Yeah. It's kind of wild. And you have to make up stuff like the ad lib of it or the improv part of it. Like it's crazy. Yeah. And you just stand in front. That'd be lonely. Yeah.

Totally. I would find that very lonely. I would go nuts. Yeah, I would go nuts. Go nuts. But anyway, I love this conversation. Lots of wisdom. I was, yeah, I was every five seconds, I was like, clip it. Wow. Just so, so powerful. Thank you, Michelle. She texted me the next day. She's like, I have a vulnerability hangover. Is that normal? I was like, completely normal. Yes. Let me know if you want to cut anything. She goes, no, let's leave it.

Let's go. Because I just wanted to check with that because she did share. She shared quite a bit in a really beautiful way because I think, yeah, a lot of what she shared, I feel like I've just picked up on in our community as of late, whether it's, you know, feeling...

just burnt out nervous system wise, whether you're in a relationship with a narcissist, romantic or not, whether you're a creative who can't get out of their own way, the good girl complex, whatever. So I'm excited for you all to listen to this one. Wow. I wonder, I want to hear from a man that's dating a woman narcissist.

I feel like I've heard so many of the women talking about men. Right into us. Yeah, honestly. Men. If you're the man, if you're a man who's been with, married to, dated a woman narcissist, I'm curious the reason why there's so many male narcissists that we know about. Are there more men than women? Because there's so much more shame. So narcissism is, it's not a grandiose confidence. It's actually deep shame. So I feel like men hold more shame because...

And there's more of like the anger, like they have the anger they're not allowed to express, the sexuality they're not allowed to express. Like there's more of the aspects of their personality that they can't express. They've been made more docile, like I think in our culture. Right.

I also think that the way that women and the generation of mothers that we had created this because they weren't in fulfilling relationships with their husbands a lot of times, they actually made the son their pseudo partner. And then that gave this like overbearing nature onto the son where the son was seen as this like cherished prize piece of perfection. Yeah.

And then they weren't really made to become a man in the way that we have made men come previously. And I feel like women are so used to being codependents that we like sort of self-erase for anyone. And we're so used to self-erasing to receive the love of a man. And I also think that our generation of women are,

our dads weren't around a lot. Yeah. Like my dad was around one day a week and I was like, oh, that's the best. Like dad's the best. He's the best. He's amazing. Literally comes around one day a week and my mom's like doing the rest. And so we have this weird distorted perception of men where we're like, they don't show us barely any emotional support, you know,

what, like whatever type of support, but yet we think it's like amazing and we're so hard on other women. And so I think that there's this like idea we have where we have this like kind of like obsession with fathers or the masculine, even though they're not around and they actually don't provide us like a masculine frame or emotional support. So we just accept the bare minimum. And so I think from men now we just are used to receiving the bare minimum. And most of our fathers weren't emotionally available.

You know, we're emotionally processed, emotionally available. And I'm saying this all with love. Like it's not, it's heartbreaking. But yeah, I think there's a lot of different things. I think there's also social media stuff too. I feel like we've come in contact with female narcissists in our work. Yeah, I agree. Just kind of like. I want to think of who.

Let's psychically tell each other. I know. I'm trying to. I'm thinking of one person that I'm thinking of. Oh, yeah, yeah. I have one. Oh, yeah. I have one. I have one that like honestly I would cry when I would – I hung out with her a few times and I would cry every time I would leave and like something's off. And it was just like the craziest, craziest thing ever.

And it was funny because I remember narcissists sometimes it's like, I'll be with them and they'll kind of like watch for like one or two indicating things and then they'll just hook. And I remember saying like, wow, I can't believe you, da-da-da-da-da, all this stuff. And it was like this admiration and acknowledgement of her, but it was like that's the hook where she's like, oh, I can really see where she's going to feed me and she'll be a good feeder. And I remember being like, why am I being hooked right now? And then I was like hooked in.

Not that long, but everything was about them. I never said a single word. So crazy. So crazy. And that's not like that's an aspect of a narcissist that I've seen repeated. But also there can be people who it's all about them. They talk a lot, but they're not a narcissist. You know what I'm saying? A hundred percent. Like there are aspects of a narcissist.

What I want to say is that the word is overused. You know, and so when we're talking about like a true... Yeah, true. Cold-blooded narcissist. It's like...

Yeah. It's hard to be specific. Yeah. It's weird because there's also like aspects of a personality with some women that I know that are like emotional narcissists where it's like their little girl or when they're activated emotionally, they cannot hold anybody else's experience at all. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And they cannot...

And it's almost like they have to make it about them. They have to be the victim. They have to be. So it's almost like they're very loving and kind. When they're regulated, they can be a great friend or a great whatever. But when they're unregulated, it is nothing can be held but them. There's also a nice, you know, I know someone who's a nice narcissist, but their whole world absolutely revolves around them. They can't really hold anyone else's experience. They have to be the main character of every single situation. Yeah.

Which is, you know. It's a vibe. All right. Thank you, Michelle Miller. Appreciate you. Michelle works one-on-one with creatives and executives to really help them clarify their story and message to get out of their own way. And she's a professor at the University of Kansas.

Thank you for listening. We love you guys so much. Enjoy this one. Love you guys so much. Almost30.com for all of our partners. More information about us, you can take our Saturn return calculator. Saturn return calculator is on and popping. YouTube, Almost 30. Make sure to subscribe. Check out Morning Microdose, our second show, our clips channel pretty much. And you can find us on TikTok and Instagram at Almost 30 Podcast. Love you guys. Bye.

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And I would love if you could please support our show. Tell them that we sent you your hair. Well, thank you. So again, let's get 15% off Lola V with the code A30pod15 at LolaV.com. Okay. I'm so excited to be here. Actually, we just did a little exercise before we hopped on that I would actually love to share with people because it was so simple and...

Just behind the scenes, sometimes I get nervous before we have interviews and you were saying how you want to ground and felt a little nervous even after eight years. So this is something that people can do too.

reset their vagus nerve. So the vagus nerve is the longest nerve in the body. And this comes from polyvagal theory and polyvagal means many, um, and vagal means wandering. And they call it this kind of wandering nerve because it starts in the, your cranium in the brain and it goes into your pelvis and it actually branches off into major organs through your body. Um, and it really is where we store fight, flight, freeze, and fawn. So it kind of

takes that on. And, you know, I just came through Times Square to get here. I know we were talking about our journey to Times Square. It's a whole other thing since I've not been living in New York for a while to like navigate all that energy and all those people. And I could feel that my breath got high, which is very much an indicator that your nervous system is getting overwhelmed.

with stimuli, and I'm very sensitive to stimuli and know that. And so it's so simple, and there's a lot of different little exercises like this. Some are a little more subtle, so people don't look at you in public like you're doing something odd. But the one that we did is you gently lace your fingers, and you place it at the base of your skull. And this is not, you know, for anything other than to just support your skull. Mm-hmm.

And also when you're opening up your elbows like this, you're opening up your heart, you're opening up some space and some breath. And you take one deep breath and then you open your eyes and you very intentionally direct them up into the right until you feel a yawn, sigh, or a swallow. Or you can just do it for 60 seconds. But there I go. Because yawning on camera is awesome. Yeah.

Wide open, yeah. And then when you feel that kind of physiological change, you go up and to the left with intention until you feel a yawn, sigh, or swallow. Okay.

What does the yawn, sigh, or swallow mean? So your vagus nerve runs right down. Okay. So it's just a way of saying that the nerve is waking up, getting toned, getting kind of refreshed. You know, the physiological sigh that people do, which is two deep breaths in and then exhaling it all out. Kind of almost like what you feel in a sob, that...

also can do it. It's just a different mode because I always say that like everything I teach and invite people into experiment with, it's a tool and not every tool works. It's like sometimes it could be like giving right-handed scissors to a lefty. There's a reason why lefties had higher incidences of death for a very long time because they were using the wrong tools. And that has to always be the permission that people have is to not feel like a failure if it doesn't work for them.

Our bodies do their own things. Our brains do their own things. Our nervous systems have experienced their own biographies, and we have to honor that and where we are. Yeah. Okay. We're going to get into five questions just popped into my head about that. So I'm going to pin those in my mind. But I do want to kind of pull up a little bit for people. Why are we sitting here together? We have a history, and I'm excited because I've never done –

an interview, a conversation where I've had a history with someone like you. Um, and I'm excited. So Michelle and I met when I was in college. Um, I was a theater teacher,

an English major, but we met in a theater. And I want to let you kind of tell the story of why you, who also went to this college, you went to Boston College, why you came back to teach. What I'll say is that

and I told you this the other night, like you were one of those people that I can now look back as a true adult and just really reflect on the truth you spoke into me and the confidence you spoke into me at the time. I don't think I totally got it and totally appreciated it at the time. But to know that God, source, spirit, whatever you believe in, kind of sends you certain people on your path

I don't know. I just, I think it's one of those things that I reflect on. I'm like, oh, I love that part of life, you know? And then it brings me to presence in this moment where I'm like, who's God sending me today or this year for where I am on my path? And at the time I was

You know, college is a vibe. It was a vibe. I really, I was so passionate about performing, acting, singing, just fully embodying the creative that I know I am. And at the same time, I was, I had like eight dangling carrots around me, like my

new boyfriend who played football. I had, you know, parties on the weekend. I had pressures here and, you know, comparisonitis over here. So it's, and trying to keep up with schoolwork and just like doing my parents proud. And being a good girl. And being a good girl. You had that syndrome. Oh yeah, I had the good girl syndrome. So,

I think to have another woman see me for who I really was, was very impactful. So thank you. And I really want to get into today so much actually, but you are a teacher, you are a leader. You, I think you lead with so much heart, which I think is rare, but hopefully becoming more common among leaders. Let's pray for that. Yeah.

And you are just so multidimensional and your work speaks to that. And I think in this conversation too, I just want to give people kind of permission to embrace aspects of them that society might say are wrong or broken or, you know, having different paths that are nonlinear and having that be like perfect and okay. So all that to say, I'm excited to dive in.

And I think I want to start, yeah, with your story, why you came back to BC. Well, it's interesting. I think if we go through like the themes that created these many branches, because there's not a linear path. Our paths break and splinter and they can splinter with great force and a tremendous amount of pain. And what I've learned and what I have to hold and actually really just in this year of my life being 48, embracing it is that

I have had the ability to transmute pain into purpose. And I do not wish any of these things on anybody. I also, if I could go back and change it, I don't know what I would do because I'm

If I'd gotten everything with the ease that I wanted it when I wanted it, there's so many tremendous blessings I wouldn't have. Meanwhile, pain should never be met with platitudes. It should never be met with anything that diminishes it. So when I showed up at BC, you know, I was in my early 30s and I was on my own journey of kind of speaking about finally things that I had suppressed and tucked away. And really I came back to kind of be a balm for

and the type of person that I needed as an undergrad. Now I had some life transforming teachers who then became colleagues when I came back as a visiting professor and met you. Um, and,

But really, the reason I came back to Boston College and how I found teaching and journeying with people as a vocation was because not because my journey was easy there. It's because of what made it fraught and difficult and really soul challenging, you know, and

My senior year of college, I'd spent the summer in New York, had this like transformative time being in this crucible of creation with life changing teachers here. And I went back with so much purpose and excitement. And within the first month, I got mugged.

And I broke his nose because I'd just taken a self-defense training. And that is that stranger danger kicked in. And that's an antidote to a story that's coming. And then a couple weeks after that, I experienced a devastating life-altering injury where someone at senior homecoming threw me over their shoulder like a sack of potatoes, dropping me onto the floor. And at a hotel, it's just concrete covered in carpet.

So I dislocated at my collarbone right here, the sternoclavicular joint, dislocated my shoulder, all my ribs, and I got a massive concussion and had post-concussion syndrome for the better part of a year. So that was life-changing. I, you know, this is the only place where your arm attaches to the thoracic.

So my arm was hanging down. I was in so much shock that I still just was trying to get someplace. I went down, said, hey, something terrible has happened. I talked to the front desk and they said, oh, well, we're not going to call you an ambulance, but there's a taxi stand that way. And I had to relearn how to breathe, relearn how to sing, which was

had been my identity. It had been what I found purpose and excellence in as the youngest of nine children and a very accomplished group of humans with really wonderful supportive parents. But all those dynamics,

And so this big piece of my identity where I was going to be auditioning for the Metropolitan Opera and I went and had to relearn things. I was told I'd never sing again, never dance again, and I should drop out of school. Instead, I had them relocate all the body parts and dance.

In spite of the pain and the concussion and whatnot, went and started rehearsals for a show, which was the worst thing I've ever done. But had I stopped, I never would have kept going. It would have been this complete failure.

stall in my life. And then six weeks after that, and that, that show was directed by an intensely creepy individual, who, you know, really good faculty members there have tried to buffer or move that out. But when you have tenure, and tenure protects dangerous people, instead of just talking about good ideas.

That's very challenging, especially in a theater department where our bodies, our emotions, everything is at play. Yes. And you get a lot of access.

to young people and especially young people at a university like that, Catholic, high achieving, you want to be the good kid. You do what you're told. You take direction. And I remember him turning off the lights and it was a cast of five men and just two women saying, now you get to explore each other's sexuality. And I remembered in my little sling being like, I can't explore anything. And that was massive. And

So I went back partially to combat that, to show what was not correct, to go toe-to-toe through my own teaching with that energy. And that teacher was still there. He's still there. That professor was still there. He's still there and he was there when I was there, yeah. Yeah, he was there when you were there. And has been suspended a couple times, things like that. I've actually been told by other people if I ever reported this person more publicly than to the university, I probably wouldn't teach in academia again, which is its own thing.

tragedy. But six weeks after that, I experienced, and this is of course a bit of a trigger, I'm not going into tons of detail, obviously, for people who are listening, because it deals with sexual assault. But I was assaulted by somebody that I had trusted and cared for. And I was pinned by my dislocated shoulder and a pillow was over my head. So even 20 some odd years later,

I've done all the cognitive therapy and things like that. It took me a good 10 years to actually say what it was that happened instead of internalizing it as being somehow my fault, as me being broken, you know, whole bunches of those terrible tropes that we go into.

It took me a very long time and I can still, if I slam on the brakes too hard and I get pulled back by my seatbelt, my body has its memory and has its response that throws me back in two flashes of that memory. And so, you know, there's the tremendous gifts that have come from these absolutely terrible things and assault. What makes that part of my story actually so sad is how common it is.

And how we don't talk about it and we vilify ourselves and think I'm an intelligent, intuitive person. And, you know, if these things are going to happen to you, it is never your fault. And I'm so grateful that I get to be the face of compassion for people who've gone through it. To say it's never your fault. It's always an act of violence. It's always an act of power over the other.

And just even speaking those words to another person because there is a neurological thing that when you speak things, you are hearing it as well. So you've got this sensory thing of feeling the words coming out, you're forming the thought and then you're hearing it.

And that's why what we say to ourselves is so important, not just the little alphabet soup of things that we have going in our heads, but what we speak out loud is so much of what we can become. So that was really a big piece of why I went back and why when I started going back and teaching and embodying this

place of what did I need at the time, which then turned into really what do these students need? How do I need to pivot for their neurodiversity? How do I need to pivot for their own body biographies, their own stories, making sure I don't project on them, letting everybody show up who they are in the fullness of who they are to feel seen, heard, and understood. Because when we feel seen, heard, and understood, we don't feel so othered.

We don't feel so fractured. And we don't walk around the world with all these broken edges that then cut other people. So I don't know if you remember me saying this, but it's been kind of the mantra ever since the beginning is my job is not to put people on Broadway or in movies. My job is to help people...

see the mirror reflected back to them of what is enough and that their muchness is never too much and that I want them to be compassionate, critical thinkers, and whether they go into the arts or other areas. And it's super fun for me to see people go off and be fantastic photographers for Playbill, you doing your work and seeing where those lessons get

you know, put into different places. And then seeing you at that time, this, I knew people underestimated you because you were beautiful. And, but it wasn't this beauty that I just saw. I saw someone who showed up so dedicated, so present in many ways. You have not changed in that way in the many years and this great sense of humor and ability to laugh through things and a sense of resilience and

That is rare a lot of times, you know. I manage my loving critiques to bring people along on their journey, really kind of getting a sense of how much they can tolerate. Sure. And you always wanted more. You always wanted the notes. There was never a sense of need or neediness, which also let me know that oftentimes people just were like, Lindsay's good. Yeah.

And you are a sunny person with a sunny disposition. We talked about this the other night and I know what this is like. That when you tend to, you're Atlas, you're carrying your weight on your shoulders, but no one sees it. You project lightness. They're not going to tolerate storms and squalls because that's uncomfortable. That's not what they know of you. And if you're a soft and sunny place to land, it's really hard to navigate that. So that's

That's how we landed here. It's so interesting to think about the aspects of who we were when we were in college because it's such a potent time. Yeah. We're like not completely adults, right? No. And then we're not –

kids anymore. It's like this weird, interesting in between. And we're still kind of in this like playland college. It's a liminal space. It's a neither here nor there. Yes. And, and everyone has a different experience in college because yeah, for many reasons. Um,

But I definitely, I felt that liminal space. And I think I was trying to grab on to, okay, like, what is my purpose here? But I was also quite distracted in many ways. But what I wanted to say was thinking back to aspects of me then and how they've kind of morphed, but

remained within me now, whether it is the people pleaser who I'm still tending to and looking at. Yeah. I think we all are, I guess what the people pleaser who else within me, I think it's the, like you said, kind of projecting to the world that like, I'm good. Yeah. Same jinx. Yeah. I got it. Yeah. I got it. And I think what I've discovered as an adult is that

there's a part of me that really wants to control my experience. And so to have more players come into my experience and like, quote, help or support made me feel uncomfortable and kind of out of control, which is so interesting. But I see that now, even as a mom. Sure. Where it's like,

I should be asking for help in a lot of different ways, but I'm like, they don't do it like I do it. Or, you know, my way. It's the control piece for me that I've noticed is a little bit of a thread and also seeing my mom be someone who is so strong and just kind of like, all is well, you know, on the outside. So there's different influences, but I guess for you as someone who you would say is a people pleaser or has been. Has been, definitely. Yeah.

and or kind of projects this like light and all as well at times in your life when it really hasn't been. What has been your journey there, whether it's the work that you've done or what have you found to be important aspects of that, like discovering that really sticks with you today? In kind of transforming that people, please, or peace or...

Wow. Well, I mentioned before, I'm the youngest of nine children. And the first, well, actually 10, one passed, but the first nine were born within 12 years. And then I came along five and a half years later. And so being in that place that the family, and they say, you know, with birth order and things like that, the family starts over, you become more like an only or an oldest, and I became an aunt at the age of 10. And I was like,

and caregiving there. That's probably where I started being like, oh, this is the type of tenderness I wanted at that age, from which I always, always got from my mom. I have to give her full credit. She's like to this day in 91, my rock, my favorite person, as someone who managed us with great grace and care. And when people say she ran a tight ship, I'm like, it was really done graciously. There was nothing that felt wrong.

I'd run a tight ship with nine kids. Yeah. Well, then when you get to be... Keep it in the ship. Oh, my gosh. When the oldest is 18 and going off to college when your youngest is born and you become a parent at 25 and then finish that cycle at 43...

You know, you learn every child gets a different parent, even with the same two parents. And my parents had this unbelievable love story that continues even though my dad passed eight years ago. And that seeing that as an example was always amazing, but also something very big to live up to.

always wanted to do what my siblings did. So I think that that created this person that wanted to people-please by showing interest and curiosity in whatever they did. So whatever sport they did, music, dance, all of that, and then I would hyper-focus and get very into it. And that's really so much of following them, their good examples, their pitfalls became informative for me. And the people-pleasing aspect is that also when you have that many personalities...

People are much older and they're going through their own things. And whatever is said from somebody, you know, over a decade older can land very hard on a very small person, whether or not intended. It is just intention and impact are two different things, which I think is very important for us to always remember. We may not intend to wound people, but when we do, how do we own it? How are we accountable? So the way that people pleasing showed up

Was sometimes me giving a wide berth to people who should have had much narrower parameters in my life and a lot less access, whether it was relationships or in the professional realm. I was a little too porous to those influences. What did that look like?

Being porous just meant taking on criticism and never, not actually being defensive, but being like, I am not lovable. If someone yelled at me, it would make me feel like anger to me feels unlovable. So I, as an adult, am still learning how to express anger in a way that

Yeah.

So with that, it's seeing the porousness was where I would internalize things. And I have spent, you know, my life with multiple autoimmune. No one would ever know it to look at me, you know, diagnosed with fibromyalgia at 17. Terrible diagnosis just means you have widespread pain. It shows up differently for people. I don't identify with that.

But chronic fatigue, Ehlers-Danlos, I was diagnosed in my 30s, meaning that I'm hypermobile. I dislocate easily. So all those dislocations, no one tested for it before because I was dancing. So I was limber. But that also showed me that my flexibility, whether it was physical or emotional, looked graceful, looked a certain way, but it was actually weakness in my body, weakness that

that flexibility was something that harmed me. And having a certain amount of not rigidity, because it's that thing that I use this image a lot with people, being able to be a reed that's rooted in the mud while the current can change and fluctuate so that you can bend without breaking, but you're also not so rigid because water wears down anything that's rigid. And so looking at that of how I stay rooted

And I can still get swept. I can still feel it. I'm just more present to it now.

And that's taken a long time. And so when I'm working with people, whether it's big systems thinkers and distilling their information from the complicated to the simple or with my students who are in these tender phases of life where they are also very malleable and porous, it's an understanding of where to meet them where they are to remind them to be gentle with themselves. Yeah.

Because there's a lot of we like grit is a wonderful thing. But if we rub up against anything that's gritty too much, it's going to harm us. We have to find that balance. So the people pleasing aspect got me into a marriage I shouldn't have been in. I made choices that were not as helpful to me when I would deny my intuition because of my compassion for someone thinking, oh, I can love them through their trauma.

Well, you have to remember to love yourself and you can witness somebody if they're working on their trauma. But if their trauma is coming out as abuse or things like that, knowing where I have to hold myself in as much esteem as I'm loving you, if not more. Right. So I don't know if that answered. Yes, it did. Okay. Yeah.

I think there's, it's just so sneaky that self-abandonment. Totally. You know, like I didn't, I didn't, it wasn't obvious to me. And I almost identified with, I over-identified with being the person that...

Would be there for someone no matter what. 100%. Or would be helpful or would, you know, lend my shoulder to Christ. Whatever it was, like, I would just take pride to a fault in being that girl. Because I didn't want to be the girl, fill in the blank, that was dumping her stuff all over people. I didn't want to be the girl that was too much. I think too muchness was...

Something I was like really afraid of at that age. And it's interesting because being a theater major, like I had the ability to be like kind of dramatic and too much in a way that was healthy. But I honestly think that that held that belief held me back from really taking advantage of my time at BC, especially in the theater. Coulda, woulda, shoulda.

I wouldn't change anything, though. I just think about that where I'm like, wow, you really had a fear around being too much and like too embodied in who you really are.

Yeah, because you think about it, taking up space is something we're not encouraged to do as women, you know, physiologically. I mean, even the way that I just changed my pose, I didn't think about it. This kind of like staying closed up. And I do teach power posing and things like that to students. This is just physically comfortable. But the idea of two, T-O-O.

This qualifier is so challenging. The too much, the too sensitive. I tell people, I'm like, no, you're exquisitely sensitive. Whenever someone says you're too sensitive, that's usually a form of gaslighting that usually tells you that they are unable to meet you

in that level of depth or whatever it is. They may be wanting to actually say too reactive in this moment and just have used this other term, but I do say to students, you are exquisitely sensitive. This tuning fork to feel with people deeply, to empathize,

is so needed and so necessary, not just as creatives. You know, I say I'm a service-driven storyteller because it still feels best to be in that pouring out. But I remember that I have to fill up with quiet, with things that are awe-inspiring to me. Like my sense of awe, I think, has given me the most resilience through these things. And awe can sound like too much.

But it's not. It's not that I get moved by music to the point of tears, that I can see the brushstrokes in a Monet and want to dig into it and marvel at it. That's a wonderful quality. And the sensitivity has taken me into communities that have been opportunity challenged and underserved and to be present and not to make it about me and to say, hey, what do you need? Listen first, listen last, listen always.

And to sit with students as they are carrying huge weights and to be present with them. So I'm very much at this season of my life embracing the bigness and the abundance. So an abundance of heart, we need that.

We need that. I want to overwhelm the world with love and compassion and kindness and an example of gentleness. That doesn't mean that you're a doormat. That doesn't mean that you, you know, you can, I've said to people before, you know, it's great. You don't have an unkind bone in your body, but you've got to have a spine as well. You have to have something that is, holds you in that center or as your north starts, you're guiding yourself.

because it's so easy to get swept. Yes. So, yeah, it's the people pleasing, all those aspects, the too muchness.

you're too curious. I also had, Ned would say to me at one point in my life, I think you're too smart for your own good. And I'd be like, I think I'm too smart for your own good. Yeah, literally. I think in this moment. Because yes, I mean, I experienced you as just someone, I love the way your brain works and I, yeah, I just love it. And how have you come to

love your curiosity, your intelligence and the way that your brain specifically works. Because I do want to get into a conversation we had off air and one that I'm exploring personally around neurodiversity.

Yeah, it's really interesting. This is something that has been a great gift of teaching as well, is that I've seen students who are, you know, on the autism spectrum or ADHD, you know, so autism, ADHD, which are often, and I don't love the terms that are used with these, comorbidities. Well, morbid means death and not great. They are comorbidities?

They are, yeah. So me, for instance, having Ehlers-Danlos, which is the hypermobility, that can be an indicator of neurodiversity.

Um, now when I was finally put into the category of being neurodiverse, I think I told you my therapist was like, so we would call you gifted. And I was like, that just makes me sound like a jackass. And that's me going to this place of being like, I can't say I'm gifted. I can't say I'm this cause I went to the, the too much, but there's also the piece with being, um, diagnosed with complex PTSD after a very emotionally abusive marriage that there's a Venn diagram that

of trauma that comes into some of those things that look like ADHD, the time blindness, the rejection sensitivity, dysphoria, those pieces of where you are to others disorganized, but you know where everything is. And it's actually been kind of wonderful.

For me, I first really discovered it from an externalized place of, again, I was going through the divorce and went through all these old papers. I had a big storage unit and I was having to kind of do a thing. This is your life because I had to downsize in every way. I had to economize. The family I was going to have was not going to happen. The home that I was holding on to things to build.

was not going to be a part of my journey anymore. And I had to let it go. And I had to keep what really mattered and struck the correct chords with me, the things that I wanted to keep. And I went through my report cards, going back to preschool. And it's amazing how little humans, like you'll see this as your son grows up, our personalities are just different.

Yes. They're just there. I have everything going back to preschool was Michelle's very caring with the other students. When somebody is sad, she tells them a story. She makes them laugh like the second night to this day. If I can make people laugh, I'm at ease because then I'm like, oh, I've served my purpose and being the dancing bear. And then there was the other piece of daydreams a lot.

doodles, is reading. I was a voracious reader and I was reading everything and then being like, I really don't want to do my algebra. Whenever the alphabet entered math, I kind of was like, no. Meanwhile, now I love higher mathematics and Fibonacci sequences and I see the pattern. I see it integrated differently because it makes more sense in my life. So looking at that and then starting to explore it and starting to

read up on it and seeing, oh my gosh, that thing.

That, you know, not only have I felt too much, I've felt less than. Yes. Less than that I've had to do my papers the night before. Yes. The worst grade I ever got in college on a paper because I love writing was when I spent two weeks writing it. And I did it in what I thought the process should be. And, you know, should is a very disempowering word. And I'm like, I came from a very shouldy family. We did a lot of shoulds. We should all over ourselves. Don't do it.

Do it, you know, wake up and say I must. And even when it got to grad school, it would be my research process would be very long and exhaustive and going down every rabbit hole and teasing things out and getting super granular with them, that kind of very tactile experience of learning and then integrating it and letting it marinate till it was nice and juicy. Yeah. And then it would come out. And so...

Not fighting how my brain wants to brain, as my friend who's a neuropsychologist says, not fighting that impetus and going with it and embracing with it, seeing that

This ability, it's kind of like the movie A Beautiful Mind of taking disparate things and integrating them, which when you're working with students who are navigating everything that they're navigating now, you know, whether it's social media and being inundated with news and ridiculous images and such, or, you know, my students who have come beyond you, that next generation that grew up with active shooter drills have totally dysregulated nervous systems.

Because there is no place that's actually safe for them. And also just these pieces of they were in a pandemic. They were cut off. So having tremendous compassion and also combining that with a certain academic rigor, but also understanding, meeting them where they are, and then reminding them, you know, and this I do with all my clients and people is, look, 40% is your 100% today. Right.

Tell me. And what they do is they always exceed where they're going to be. And so discovering this piece that obviously my monkey mind swings from branch to branch. So kudos to anybody who's following me through my rainforest mind right now is that I in having self-forgiveness and some kindness to myself that I didn't use to give, I'm so much more capable to have a greater capacity to

Yes.

Some students need to have nervous system regulation from a panic attack. And for some of them, cold on the sternum will be good. For other people, it won't be. And knowing that I can't sit in meditation because my body hurts too much. That's when all of a sudden I become a pinball machine of pain. But if I lie down and I've got directed meditation or I'm doing...

where I'm moving through it, the brain becomes quiet. And knowing that it's not wrong. There is no thing. We use the word divergent instead of diverse. We say deficit. And we at early ages are telling people that there's something wrong with them instead of they're just their own human. We've got these fingerprints that are unique to us. Our brains are unique to us.

Why don't we embrace that and allow people to really embrace and embody what is so beautiful in them? Yeah, thank you for sharing all that because I think what I'm kind of psychically picking up on people listening, there might be a lot of people that are like, that's been my experience. Yeah. I have not.

Um, I've been, you know, judging myself all of these years. I've been being so hard on myself and trying to fit into a certain box or do it a certain way. And maybe my brain just works differently. And I think as someone, me, who's felt like, I think in our industry for a time, I was like the girl next door.

Right. So I was kind of like girl next door, sweet, normal, da, da, da, da, da, da. Oh my God. Normal. Normal. What an insidious word. What a crazy word to kind of take on as like an identity because anything that felt not normal, I was like, oh no. And so for what I'm realizing, and I'll just give

kind of a brief aha I had recently. I was sitting with my therapist virtually and my therapist is, I've been with her for four years now and she's someone who kind of spans the realms of the galactic and angelic and spiritual, but also is an incredible like traditional therapist as well.

So we go every which way in sessions wherever we need to go. And it makes perfect sense to me and it's beautiful and it's exactly what I need. And there was this session where we were talking about something related to how my brain worked and how I was just frustrated that like, I just can't get it. After all these years, I'm 36. Why can't I just do this and like get it right and like stop fucking it up? And...

I know that in her monologue. Oh, yeah. I'm like, dude, again? Yeah. And she was like, I'm so sorry. Like, I have to share what they're sharing with me. And by they, it's my guides. Yep. My guides were sharing. She said, neurodiversity? Yeah.

neuro, like there's a neuro divergence. She, she might've said divergence too, without that. It's the vernacular. I mean, it's, it's, it's not to vilify it. It's just to start the dialogue of integrating something a little less. And I love that. It feels different. Yeah. And when she said it, I was like, my initial reaction was no, not me. What are you saying? Cause she also said ADHD. Yep. And I was like,

No, like I'm not. What? What? Yeah. And so I was I kind of had like a little moment. I wasn't emotional, but I was just kind of in shock because so much made sense. Right. It starts to like it's like the Tetris of the weird things and the shapes in your mind that lines up.

And then as, you know, as the universe does, people started to come into my life or re-come into my life who have this type of mind. And it was really beautiful to connect with them and understand that.

Just the really cool and fascinating ways that they've been able to be successful entrepreneurs, do all the things. Because I think from my perspective, I was like, oh no, this is a disadvantage. How, wow, how did I not catch this and fix it? And so I'm kind of on this very slow...

just paced journey now of understanding my brain, embracing the way that it works, and also just forgiving myself for years, specifically in these last eight years with Almost 30, of comparing the way my brain works to how Krista's brain works. It is so...

different. And I haven't had like a in-depth convo with her about my experience with neurodiversity, but we shall. And we're also very connected and psychic. And I'm sure there's been some conversations in the psychic realms about this with each other. But I just, I was so hard on myself. And I just felt like

Yeah, in so many chapters of my life where this has been a prominent piece of like, why can't I be more like this person or do it that way? I just, yeah, I held back on what my true gift was. So I'm excited now like that I'm realizing this and really learning more about this and embracing this as a new mom. Because, yeah, I mean, no better time than now as a mom raising a child and

kind of embracing a family now to understand and celebrate the way my brain works. I know that I will also give that gift to my children and my husband and just really anyone more so now. And I love it. I mean, here's the thing. People are like, it's a superpower. Yes, it has powers to it and challenges. Yes. Like anything.

It just does. Can you talk about some of the challenges? Like, I guess just so people can have an idea of what this looks like for you. Yeah.

Yes. So for me, sensory processing is a big thing. Understanding that all those years of me wanting to walk out of stores when the music was too loud, of not being able to concentrate when there was a lot of ambient noise, of getting a little stabby when people are smacking their food out loud. Uh-huh.

where I just was like, I'm a horrible person. Yeah. Where that smacking noise, I won't even impersonate it because I'll hate myself. Mm-hmm. That that was part of it. That was part of it. Tearing tags out of all of my shirts because it was...

too much. You know, I've seen something that was like, sorry for how I behaved when my clothes felt weird. I was fully like, oh my God, that feeling of not being alone in it is so, you know, important. And I have to also think of alone as, as all one self-contained, I am okay. This is just how my body reacts to things as a very little girl, too bright of lights would really affect me.

And again, that was something that would get the phrase you're too sensitive.

It is just the way my body processes things. The way that I am organized, I will either be incredibly organized, like you look in my closet, color-coded, this and that, and then a drawer will look like something went off. It's just odd. If I'm not in my home for several days, things pile up, and I can have an issue with getting there. I always keep a pretty tidy home. However...

That means that, you know, I walk in my door, I take off my shoes and I can't sit down until I get everything done. So it's just getting, you know, again, it's finding those tools, those left handed scissors that work for me. And so I'll, you know, my days don't have a set agenda.

Because they've never been able to. That comes with having autoimmune and very, very high chronic pain for a very long time that I still manage and deal with in my own way. And so I know in the morning my routine is tongue scraping, oil pulling, do this morning drink routine. And then I have the meetings that are set up. I also have to know that my capacity...

Is not eight hours back to back. I used to push myself too much and exert too much and then deplete and then wonder why I would be sick. So, you know, and you go through seasons when you're directing a show or you're working on a set or even working with a team that you will have very long days. But as long as I know what's at the end of the tunnel, that there is...

time by myself, which I took yesterday because the first day back in the city the day before was very full and very big. I let myself have one meeting yesterday, took myself to a Broadway show, which I hadn't done in a while, and that filled my soul. Walked the streets of the city that I had called home for 12 years.

And went and sat in a favorite restaurant and then walked along and just listened and took it in and then went and tucked myself away to be out of all of that. So, you know, it has been just integrating everything.

new patterns. And instead of fighting against that current floating, you know, it doesn't mean that I don't have terrible days and doing my taxes is my least favorite thing ever. Those like taxes, billing, things like that. But when I'm working on a project for somebody else and I'm called in to consult in different areas, and this is where I love my curious brain and

is that I get to learn all the time and I get to steep and soak things up of things that I never thought I would be interested in, but then I find them very interesting. I'm able to, I put that in front of my needs sometime. I'm somebody who has to remember to eat because I will get into a thing, five hours will have passed of me sitting and writing or working on something. And then I'm like, oh,

The letters are crossing on the page and I'm feeling a little hangry and spacey because, I mean, I've always got water with me. I'm drinking water constantly, but I will fully forget to nourish myself. And again, everything that we say about the physical body is also for our spiritual and emotional selves too. What does that look like to fill up your cup? And sometimes that's me pouring myself out in service.

It is filling up. And in other times, it's taking the very hot Epsom salt baths I take multiple times a week because I need that for my physical well-being to manage all the rest of the things that I do. Sure. Yeah, no, it's super insightful. And I don't know if the world is set up for...

I don't want to say us. I mean, yeah, people with brains that work differently. And it's interesting because I keep thinking about this. I'm like, is it this camp who has a certain type of brain that the world kind of accepts and is set up for? And then there's this camp that we have all these different beautiful sensitivities and challenges and intensities. Or...

Yeah. I'm like, are people like trying to fit over here, trying to fit into the round hole and they're really not fitting in there? Yeah. I'm like, is everyone neurodiverse? Well, the thing is, it's a spectrum. Okay. Everything is a spectrum. Okay. Light is on a spectrum. Sound is on a spectrum. Yeah. Our health, our well-being, everything, brainwaves, you know, everything.

And it's when we try to fit into this very parochial myopic piece of, again, the should of the one way. So, you know, people have integrated Ben Franklin's early to bed, early to rise makes a man healthy, wealthy and wise. First of all, he said man, because that's all that mattered at that time. And also that was that worked for him.

You know, Thomas Jefferson at work, I'm all of a sudden in a very, talking about founding fathers, would sleep four hours, get up for a few hours in the night, work, sleep a few more hours. And people will ask me, I want to know what your routine is. I want to know. It's not going to work for you. And what we see are people who are pushing paradigms.

of get up before 30, I do this, I do this, and it's this very kind of, it's another, it's like muscling wellness that, again, actually creates more brokenness. Because that doesn't work. My beauty routines are because it's for health. I can't do it for just the vanity. I do lymphatic drainage because I have to do it. I do the Epsom salts baths because I must. Right.

in order for me to be in service the way that my heart and my soul wants to be. So this shape-shifting and this human origami that we've been told we have to do to sit in desks all day long as children,

not to play, you know, and it does such a disservice thinking that we all learn the same way, thinking that we all have to work the same way. There is an evolutionary reason why some people are night owls. You needed somebody keeping watch. Why is that vilified? Why is the way that someone works and there's great creatives that their minds come alive and

At night, when I found out I was born at 815 at night, I was like, oh, showtime. Curtains up. You're on stage. That's this piece of understanding where my energy works best and in which capacity. So the trying to fit.

Any sort of a form is so detrimental because you are – I don't believe in perfect either, I have to say, because perfect becomes the enemy of the good and it becomes the enemy of process and progress.

And you have to be really bad at things before you begin it. And before you become an expert, you have got to fall and you've got to flail and fail. And so I always tell my students and even clients, come in, fail beautifully. Take the risk. And we've become such a risk-averse society.

that it's killing our creativity. It's killing this innovation that comes with, hey, let me give you a bad pitch. You know, Anne Lamott says everybody's got to have their shitty first draft. You can't edit if there's nothing on the page. Just get it out. Get it out. If I cannot love a piece of art and still be so proud of somebody that they put something new in the world, that takes courage, which comes from the French word cœur for heart.

So when we think of courage, we think of strength. It's different. Courage, it's to be embodied and to act wholeheartedly, even though someone may criticize, even though someone may say that you're not enough or too much. And just that act...

I'm always going to applaud it. Is it always my aesthetic or what pleases my nervous system or my ears? No, but that doesn't take away from its value. And that's the same with people. Do they always jibe with me? No. Does it make them less valuable, less worthy of kindness and dignity? No. Yeah. Do you feel like...

Because I think often about the influence of technology like phones and social media and kind of the addictive nature of that stuff. Has that exacerbated the experience of being neurodiverse? Do you think people can confuse that because...

I do think that my phone as well is a source of, it's like there's a magnet. There's like a magnetic quality to what that provides me, the dopamine and the distraction, whatever. And sometimes I sit down to do work and I find myself on my phone and an hour later I'm like, what did we? That's a time blindness. What is that? But I guess how have you experienced technology now?

as well, layered on top, having, being someone who's experienced life before the phone and social media. I grew up without it. I mean, I was, I read, I know, I mean, it really, I got my first phone in 1999 when I moved here, I will hold onto my 9 1 7 number forever and always. Um, and I wasn't, I didn't even really own my own computer until 2003. Um,

We weren't a video game family. And actually those things can be very helpful tools for people who are neurodiverse. It's just not something that was for me. So I painted, I drew. It was a different type of – it was a different mechanism. I would dive into my books. It wasn't a screen. It looks a lot more erudite and respectable. But it was still something that was my magnet and drawing me into another realm. I really didn't notice the phone being an issue at all.

Until lockdown, because I was locked down in a very difficult situation. And it was a very necessary form of escapism that I needed. But like any tool, if you use it too much, it's problematic. Again, it's something we cannot vilify everything as bad and wrong and whatnot. Because of, you know, discovering certain reels about psychology or, you know,

narcissism and navigating that like Dr. Romney, who you had on your podcast a while ago,

has been a tremendous, was a tremendous help for me in recognizing certain things I was dealing with. And so, yes, my brain will go into the rabbit hole. I have no problem putting my phone away when I'm with another human being. Because one thing, you know, because I love going into data and hard science because I can love the esoteric, but I love it being grounded in truth and, you know, testing and rigorous research.

vetting of certain ideas. There's the four chemicals in the brain, dopamine, oxytocin, serotonin, and endorphins. So think of it as dose. That's my like anagram for it. All of those become activated at once and are engaged when we are creating something with other people.

in that moment of being truly present in that crucible of creation. And so it's why I love directing. It's why I love being in the classroom environment. It's why I love collaborating. And I think a lot of people, when they write and they're solo, they're not getting all of those things. And so it becomes very precious when they're writing and editing and every word is so important. But when you're in a writer's room or you're on a set, um,

and working with a group of people towards something, that engagement is one of the best antidotes to that. But when I'm alone, I will go down that rabbit hole and I can see where it's deleterious and then also where I've gotten a tremendous amount

of helpful information. Well, I mean, like you put out there when I reconnected with you, you know, after having seen the podcast come in and out, the last time that we saw each other was eight years ago. And it was just, you were just starting it. We were sitting in West Hollywood and you would never have known that I was managing what I was managing in my private life. I was

wouldn't have known everything you were, although you were much better about being forthcoming about those things at that time than I was because I felt so much shame in myself. And because I had to be an example to a younger woman who I'd been a teacher of keeping it together. Well, you know, Pema Chodron's book, When Things Fall Apart, is one of the biggest helps because it's like things do fall apart. And you have to allow that, this sense of control.

is just not even a thing. And so when I know what I can and can't control, I'm very careful, by the way, I don't put my phone out on the table because that immediately creates a triangulation and a third party that says I'm not totally here. My students sign a contract with me because they'll be signing contracts their whole life where they know what to expect from me and what I expect from them.

And one of the things is, unless you tell me before class, because communication is scary as well for younger people because... But to learn young is so important because I didn't. Yeah, accountability and all of that. And I just say, look, if you have a family emergency and you are waiting to hear from somebody or because of...

the spiciness of your brain, you need to record things in class. That is fine. I will give accommodations, but you are marked absent if your phone is out, unexcused, because you're not present. And we have to be putting that discipline into things and really showing that being present is the biggest gift that you can give. And you can't learn if you're

so distracted, you know, but if students need to get up and stand and move a little bit, I'm fine with it. I love that. So long. I just say to them, I'm like, you can have a fidget spinner, but if you click a pen, I will go offline myself. So help me, help you, help me, help you, help me help you learn. So I know I now feel zero shame about the fact that that will take me and into a place of disassociating or kind of shutting down. Yeah.

So, yeah. Yeah, I love just your leadership in the classroom in this way. Like, I guess my prayer is that all classrooms eventually adopt this. And as I like foray very early into the school realm with my son, which he's one, we're good for a few years. He's so curious. I'm already thinking about it. Because...

From what I hear, you can have your phone out. Like, you can have your phone with you as a student. Very few schools are forcing kids or requiring kids to lock away their phone because it's just a dicey thing, apparently, that, like, well, parents want to be able to get in touch with them. God forbid there's an emergency, et cetera, et cetera. Well, there should be absolutely...

things in place where you are contacted as a parent immediately. If there is an emergency, there shouldn't need to be this constant connection. And yeah, it just, it's something I'm thinking about a lot because I know the effect it's had on me. I can only imagine the effects just on these precious, malleable brains. Young brains. And

I didn't have a phone so much of my academic career and I was still distracted by things. So the fact that...

That you have a computer in your hand with the answers to all the things. Insane. And now we have AI and chat GPT and all the things. I'm like, so are people going to be writing their papers anymore? Are people going, well, you don't have to go off into that, but like. You can tell. You can tell. Chat GPT, again, it's a tool that can be very helpful. Yes. So for someone who's neurodiverse, if you have trouble putting things into a format, say you say format, this is my information, my stream of thought.

and format it into a syllabus. And then you have a framework upon which to build. So again, it's never vilifying things. I always want AI to be doing the grunt work that I don't want to do. It does not get to

take over my creative life. I had somebody contact me once about licensing my voice to AI. Hell no. Yeah. They can still listen to this and take it and whatnot, but at least I'm not signing away part of my identity and my will and my place in the world. So with that, with like the people writing things, it's feels stilted. It feels off. I agree. And I, you know, you know that. And because I'm working,

Right now, you know, I also have a background in writing for stage and screen, but I'm working mostly in this speech and voice and musical theater when I'm not working with my other clients out in the world. It's not a lot of papers. It's more expressiveness. I give students the option to send me a video because some people just their stream of thought is already very formed. And

And they are going to be less hard on themselves and it's getting them used to speaking up and giving a presentation. So again, one of the things that's amazing with this, whether it's navigating AI or accommodations, I get to be creative every moment I'm working with anybody because I don't have one set structure.

And, and usually I, my syllabi are not fully fleshed until after a week or two of class when I know what the needs of my students are. I know what I'm basically teaching or when I'm brought into work with a group as a storyteller, um, getting them into themselves or I'm writing with them is I have to see what the needs are. And I know, and this is where my ability to shapeshift

as human origami is great and expansive and not restrictive is that I'm like, ooh, challenge. Yes. I get to find that pathway in because not every student learns the same way or is as receptive to it. And if I'm meeting them there, I'm getting to navigate that path and that's an adventure for me. So it's gamifying things for myself too. And it's not the easy path, right? No. And I think that's...

This is a mark of an incredible teacher and I've known a lot of teachers, thankfully in my life, to do this, to actually take the time to get to know the student and the way that they learn, the way their brain works, behaviorally even know what's going on at home, what might be affecting them in the classroom. Yeah.

But I think there are also a lot of teachers and ways of thought within the classroom that are like, you do it this way. This is my method. Because it makes the teacher feel like I got things under control. I'm good. I'm doing my job. And I think that's where it gets a little...

when it's like a job. Well, yeah, it's different than being a vocation. Yes, exactly. You know, they say, especially in anything that's a performing arts, those who can't do teach, nonsense. Those who love what they do and want someone to have a smoother road or a deeper experience, teach. You know, I was on the precipice of Broadway. I was at that place that most people strive to get to when I went, hmm.

This isn't totally fulfilling. And helped my friend start a nonprofit that used to be based in this building. Using the arts to help children in poverty around the world. That took me to India. That took me to a deeper place in myself. That took me to a greater sense of interconnectedness with other people. Like there's nothing that happens around the world that I don't feel deeply because every image they show looks like someone I love. And so I've been very...

lucky that I recalibrated success from what I thought it had to be, which was Broadway, which was this one set thing. And then when you're in a community, you see where the people who are at the pinnacle that everybody's striving to get to and how unhappy they still are, how there's still a sense of this, you know, restlessness and

And I didn't always want to feel that. I always have a sense of curiosity and motion, but it's not this restlessness of lacking purpose. Sure. And I think that we can get so caught up in what that looks like to other people that we forget to check in. What does it look like?

to me. And I want my students to think that, you know, the, their grades are usually just show effort and showing up and things like that. And really like I mostly judge students, um, or judge, I hate that word, but the way that I, I, the metrics I use.

punctuation in when they're writing understanding it punctuality is what i really meant to say so grammar my monkey mind went to the wrong branch and that's also a long coveted thing i've noticed that since i had really bad covet that i'll flip words and when you're a words person which you've noticed i use a lot of them um that's challenging so punctuality presence and you know

being in the space, really, really being there. And the written word, you know, everybody's got a certain level that they'll reach. But I just want to know that people are moving forward. Sure. Because the world will judge them on that. But when they're performing for me,

I just have to know that they did the preparation and that they're exploring and that they're showing up to do it. I will never say, oh, you didn't really cry on that measure. And that's terrible. Because you cannot create from a place of fear. And a lot of learning environments or coaching environments are very set up still in kind of a punitive fashion. So we can still have parameters for excellence there.

without being stifled by structures that don't work for everyone. And for me, because I feel so fulfilled, I'm not trying to get my students to fulfill something through them. And a lot of times, my goodness, the amount of people whose trauma I have to unwind in the work from a

terrible choir director who told them something awful or a theater director who overstepped. I mean, I had to do that for myself, right? So, so much of it is this striving towards a sense of wholeness and a oneness within themselves so that they're, they're present and they can get buffeted by things, but not feel totally knocked down. Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

I could talk all day. I was like, I need a sip of water because I've been talking all day. I had a cup of my Sheila Jeet this morning. It is my...

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I was told recently, hey, coffee depletes minerals. So we got to replete them. You know what I mean? So this is what I am doing every single morning. I love Symbiotica for all my supplements. The liposomal magnesium, the magnesium L3 and I is fantastic.

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It is so important to me that I have as much of a non-toxic home and environment in which my family is living, sleeping, breathing as possible. And one of the things I learned about recently is the off-gassing that certain furnitures and mattresses and things like that give off. And it's just not great for the air, for the environment, for our bodies. And so I wanted to find a mattress that

was just comfortable, but also made with natural and certified organic materials. Um, I wanted a Gotson Green Guard gold certified mattress. I learned that that's important. So when I found Birch Living, I was like, okay, they're doing it right. And I love this mattress y'all. It's the Birch Natural Mattress. Kristen and I both got this cause I was like, girl, you need this too. Uh, we can't mess around anymore. You know what I mean? Um,

But this company is just incredible. So their mattresses are not only stylish, but they're comfortable and most importantly, environmentally conscious. The non-toxic mattresses are made in their own factory and are crafted with natural and organic materials that have been sustainably sourced. Again, I have a new child. I am someone who is very health conscious and I am just wanting to make sure that

Um, no synthetic materials are harming my body on the outside or the inside. The wool in the birch mattress makes it hypoallergenic. So it's great. My husband has a lot of allergies, so he's been sleeping like a baby. Um, and this mattress is made with raw material sourced straight from nature. So yeah.

What?

And don't forget Birch owns its own manufacturing facility and relies on skilled manufacturers to produce the highest quality product. Birch mattresses are shipped directly from their manufacturing facility to your door for free. And the mattresses come rolled up in a box and is super, super easy to set up. So I

I'm excited. Um, Birch is giving 25% of all mattresses and two free eco rest pillows at birchliving.com slash almost 30. That's birchliving.com slash almost 30 sleep better with Birch. Thank you for that reminder, because I think so much of how we are now, and I'm just speaking to the audience who's probably most likely between the ages of 25 and 40, uh, post college, if they went to college and, um,

they are still operating from the templates or stories that they picked up in college. Yes, childhood. We know that. We got that part. But college is a college and or that time in life, those early twenties where I don't know about you, but yeah, I was just, I was kind of grabbing onto whatever I could to define me. And yeah,

there can be a lot of moments there that are formative in a not so great way that we could be dealing with now. So I'm grateful you shared that because I think we can have a lot of grace for ourselves and those experiences. I would love to round out this conversation. Prior to talking on air, we had dinner the other night and you mentioned that you...

in a few ways are kind of in like a rebuilding and post. And you've mentioned a couple of times in this conversation, your marriage. And we've had many conversations on the podcast about, you know, being in relationship with a narcissist, being in relationships that we know are no longer possible.

serving us and no longer aligned, whether professionally, personally, romantically. And so I do think that this is potent medicine for people to share just a bit about that experience and how mostly how you've really embraced the rebuilding. I think people get so bogged down by, oh my gosh, I have to start in whatever lane of life. And I just, I look at you and I've had to start over and

at different points in my life. And the less that I resist it, and the more it's an adventure, I've, yeah, I've just had a better time. But I would love to, would love to round out with that. So it's interesting when you said resist, because there's that phrase, that which we resist persists. You know, until we get a lesson, the lessons keep showing up.

And, you know, there are divine angels that come in and are very positive influences. But there's also these challenges are how we build. You know this from just you have to start over and rebuilding your body after birthing a child. When you're building muscle, muscle doesn't come from ease. It comes from weight bearing, load bearing and fissures in the tissue that then get bigger. So when we understand that it's a part of the process and, you know, I have to always acknowledge that

There's a tremendous amount of privilege that we're talking through right here. When we talk about college, when we talk about just our ability to have mental health care, good sources of food and clean water and health care, so many people don't have that. And so this is where, you know, giving people potent medicine that is free to them is really important and also making people not feel ashamed.

about it. I, you know, I always say I won the lottery when I got my parents. I it's through no luck of my own. And people say, Oh, you're here at this place because of hard work. Yes, I've worked hard. I was also born in the end zone. I did not run the length of the field that many people have had to do. So I have to always acknowledge that piece as well. And it afforded me to be

you know, exquisitely sensitive and to have these experiences in a creative life and an outlet. And then also to really acknowledge like where my own vulnerabilities are. And I always look at vulnerability of strength, but it doesn't mean impenetrable strength. Right. Right.

And, you know, when I was getting towards 40, and this is one big, very important lesson, stop calibrating success via age. I feel younger at 48 than I did at 28 when it was this idea of you have to hit these milestones. Nonsense. Yes. Things show up in their time, in their season. And if you're lucky, you're learning along the way. You know, and that...

Had I at that time really been present for myself, I wouldn't have made the decision that I made. I was

Turning 40, that human showed up in a very specific way with very specific attributes, I thought, at the time. And then, as one of my dear friends says, a bait and switch. Or also, was it their own psychic break or things like that? There were things that were withheld before the marriage about certain aspects of family mental health.

Um, there was also where, you know, and this is a big thing when we talk about narcissism or BPD and things like that, not pathologizing people. Sometimes people are just a jerk. It's narcissism is a very, very specific thing, which I know you've talked about on this show. And it comes from wounds and it comes from core things, which I can see and also not want to be

a party to and relationship with that. And at the time that he proposed to me, actually in New York City, in the hotel that I'm staying here, which I've told you, I transmute pain into purpose and I do my own exposure therapy. I was like, that hotel became a place of refuge when I would travel during the marriage. But he was, without talking too much about him, because he just doesn't serve that much anymore rather than this

was that there was one human who showed up at one point. Then we got engaged and it morphed. And at that time, I turned 40. My dad was in a very steep decline. And...

My dad – so I got engaged in October of 2016 and my dad – I mean 2015. My dad passed April of 2016. And I had moved home from New York to Kansas City to live with my folks to have that opportunity, having older parents, being with them. And I was traveling for work. I was shooting with PBS and it didn't make sense for me to go back to an apartment when I would want to be seeing my folks anyway. Yeah.

And so I was living with them. I was focused on my dad's care because I met was medical proxy for him. And I knew things were going wrong. I knew that this person who had never been cruel to me was drinking more and becoming cruel. They'd started a new job. And I was carrying that while I'm trying to be present with my dad who went from functioning one day to it was like 70% of him was scooped away overnight with a stroke and

And he had a neurological disorder called progressive supernuclear palsy. It affects the brainstem, which is why I'm also so interested in the brain. And in that two month decline, there was also the deterioration of how I was being treated, but I couldn't process it. You know, the definition of trauma is too much, too soon, all at once. And I was having too much, too soon, all at once while planning a wedding.

while navigating sibling relationships with my parents. And I was the person who was there and on the ground and neck deep in the care and with the 24-hour caregivers that we had. And there's so many times where I thought to call it off and I didn't. So that's one thing. That's where intuition...

was overridden by compassion because also at the same time, there was a lot of upheaval in his family with a mom who was diagnosed BPD and a dad who had his own issues that came out later with addiction and stuff, I found out after the marriage. And his family had also separated from him because of behavior he had during this time. So I'm just trying to keep it together. And three weeks after my divorce, he lost his job.

And never had full-time employment again in our five years of marriage. And I've always been an academic and an artist. That does not mean ample amounts of financial freedom. I have tons of, you know, soul food. But throwing a lot of food on the table, you've got to negotiate it. And there was this piece of being broken down emotionally, mentally. And my physical broke down as well as my financial piece.

Because I'm not having a job, not having insurance, not having these things. And I was negotiating a man who turned out to have a much more traditional mindset than had been presented. Who even though I always said, you know, because of my autoimmune, it would be hard for me to carry a child to term. I've always wanted to adopt. Then after we were married, it was, I want three boys. And if they're not mine, it won't feel the same. You know, it's a very specific way of dealing with things. And...

And also having this thing of marriage, because I saw the best of marriage with my parents. I never heard, you know, they would disagree, but there was never name calling. There was never tearing down. There was always this sense of deep teamwork, which was very much galvanized by their faith.

And their love of one another. And I kept trying to project that. And I realized that how often I've projected goodness onto people where it wasn't there.

Because I also didn't want to be wrong about people. Actually, my first instincts about this guy was correct. And I just didn't stick with it. Come on. And so I went and talked about an annulment with the woman who at my parish had walked us through things. And she said, it's too soon. And I bet that he's feeling bad because your dad looms so large and this and that. So

I kept working and bless her that afterwards she said she gave me the wrong advice. And I'm like, well, five years later and my life savings down the drain, how are we doing? But what, what it did there, you know, it was a series of unfortunate events, um, that alienated me from community, isolated me terribly, even before the pandemic, um,

But I found my voice as a writer. I went to grad school. I was working several jobs. I'd come home to someone who wasn't working who would say on the regular, you have nothing to show for your life to me. And then, you know, the worst circumstances is being locked down with somebody like that. Which I think a lot of people have experienced. Yeah. Yeah. Who was a daily drinker, very mean mouth drunk. And my pride was,

I didn't tell family about this. I mean, I told family that I'd filed for divorce after I'd done it. My mom had been through everything with me. She is my constant witness, my constant, like...

Was that hard on her? It was so hard for her to see me suffer. Of course. Not divorce. She's, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I mean during it. Oh, gosh. Yeah. Yeah. I think I said to my mom once, and you'll appreciate this. I said, Mom, I heard that you're only as happy as a mother is your unhappiest child when you've got nine of them. What does that look like? And my mom just said she was always able to find happiness and purpose through, you know,

And she lives faith in such a very full, open, loving and accepting way. I mean, at 91, she's more evolved and progressive than most people I know and also has a curious brain. So I look to her as my model. But going through that.

Watching how my body was shutting down because I told you I like hard data and science. My cortisol levels were at 44. The top it should be is 22. When I like the week before I asked for the divorce, my cholesterol was at 260. Glucose through the roof. Wow. Triglycerides through the roof. And I've always been a pretty healthy eater and such.

My triglycerides went down. My cholesterol went down 70 points after asking for the divorce. I cut the cortisol almost in half immediately. I lost 17 pounds. It wasn't fat. It was inflammation. It's like you're girding your loins for battles. So your body puffs up and tries to create space. And I really, you know, when I asked for it, I made it very much about that it was the best thing for him.

And that he needed to go off and to get a job and purpose somewhere else that would be good for him. And it was done in three months because I asked for nothing. I stayed. I was never going to leave Kansas City where I am now with my mom. And I found that courage and I found that courage.

That necessity to get out of it because of lockdown, like COVID quite literally, I feel like it almost killed so many of us on an emotional level. But it actually saved my life because I had traveled so much with work and I would go and direct and I would be engaged. I'd be getting that dose of collaboration. And suddenly this expansive world that I had been living in was collapsing completely.

And it was so constrictive. And I couldn't keep a journal because I didn't want anything to be seen. But I would write down words. And I forgot about this for like months afterwards until I found it. And the word would be pulverized, oppressed, suffocating. And it was what I was feeling at that time. And so when my heart and my head are in a battle when I'm shooting myself, my body is the tiebreaker.

And it was telling me, this is going to kill you. And I had a really good support with a couple of friends, all who did not live in my community because I was so private. I didn't tell people. But afterwards, you realize how much people actually do witness your suffering. And they see you become a husk and a shell of yourself. And that made me feel like I was living a lie. And I let him tell everybody that it was mutual.

And I got on a Zoom call with his family to make sure he was supportive. You do the magnanimous thing and you think it's, oh, I'm being the bigger person. It was what was the necessity. Oh, yeah. You know, and, you know, I told you I got stalked by a very scary person after that and all the things. And that's all within the last three years. But all of these difficult things have brought me to a place of, man, I'm

I've survived 100% of my worst days. I will survive 100% of the rest of them. That doesn't mean that I haven't had mornings where I've woken up and been sorely annoyed at the gift that is just waking up, right? Where you get up and you just think, I can't. And how lucky I am that I had enough reasons to stay. How lucky I am that I had this undergirding of...

I mean, true agape love, that pure, perfect self-gift, that Greek ideal that I got from my mom, who is like the pillar of strength. And I got divorced over like Zoom and, you know, and he's remarried. And all I do is send a lot of compassion to this woman because people do not change. And I think the other thing that we do is that we'll like vilify the next person or things like that. Stop it.

Stop it. Let the removal of somebody be actually a gift. There's never a part of me that feels heartache or longing for that situation. And my worst days now are better than my best days were then. And it took that harsh of a lesson for me to stop self-abandoning. It took that harsh of a thing to say, you know...

I get to open up my life. And in that time of not having this constrictive peace that wouldn't let me feel awe, that told me my going and singing under my mom's balcony during COVID to her community. And that's...

Then videoing that so people could see the ways we could stay connected. I was told that was showing off that hit at a core wound of don't be too much. And just be like, no, never, ever, ever, ever deny what you do well. I mean, I show up in the fullness of don't don't have me in charge of this, this, this and this. I don't do it well. I will be the first one to say that. Yeah.

But with the things that you do well, embrace it. Embrace those gifts. Give them freely. And, you know, what looks like attention seeking for one person because that's, you know, they're seeing me through their lens of their need. It's me seeking connection and giving voice. And we talk about the power of the voice. It's the will in the world, giving voice for people who are voiceless, giving voice to things when I sing and take people on a journey forward.

It's mine internally and then it's theirs. You give it over to them. That's what we do as artists. And, you know, the other great piece is that I was lacking connection and input that was invigorating. So I cultivated this internal world where I learned about everything myself.

That was kind of happening in crypto and that's its own thing. But I worked with a crypto entertainment company for a little bit. I'm very deeply invested in the environment and environmentalism. And I'm consulting with a group right now on that. And I'm learning from all of these people. I helped write for a menopause diet, which helped me learn more about my hormones and myself and that...

the way my brain works, especially in its uniqueness, how it's affected week to week, day to day by where my hormones are. Would have loved to have known that from 13 moving on and how we now speak openly about these things. So having so much shut down and clamped down required me to create a vast inner landscape that will always be with me. And I'll

I'll always say yes to the things that scare me that are going to make me grow. When I start feeling a sense of fear, which, of course, I felt a little bit of it today, you're like, oh, this is stepping into a new place. This is putting things out there I don't speak about in a wide space and having it up for public consumption and public ridicule, but also...

The bigger piece is that somebody is going to hear it and say, I can't survive it. You know, I had to opt out of motherhood because I was willing to try to work on the marriage, but not willing to bring a little soul into what I was experiencing. And the word sacrifice, the Latin root means to make sacred. And that was a sacred choice.

And I mother in different ways. Yeah, you do. And I bring things. As one of my friends calls me, creativity doula. But in that mirroring to people their enoughness and working with them no matter what their field, we're giving birth to things that are necessities because that has to come from a heart-centered, courageous place. Yeah. So...

Thank you. Thank you. Powerful, powerful, powerful. We'll link everything in the show notes. Michelle works with people one-on-one. She's a teacher. Like I just love the, the breadth of how you teach and how you coach and who you're working with. Yeah. So if you do want to

get in touch with Michelle. We'll, we'll link that, but thank you. This has been amazing. No, I loved it. It was such a lovely, intimate moment. And it's so fun to see you where you are in your life and to meet your juicy little family. It was so much fun. I was so glad to hear that, that he vetted me well. I mean, the boy reads people. It's crazy. It's

It's crazy. Of course, because he hasn't had the world telling him not to. So that's the other thing. Last thought.

let your children be the judge of who gets to hug them. Yes, please. Like the, and don't shame them out of that. Don't like, and be their advocate. They don't have that voice. Yes. Don't make me hug somebody. I don't want to. Don't make me hug a stranger. Don't, don't even make me hug uncle Ron. Okay. Right, right, right. He's weird. I will do like a matrix backbend to get out of hugging somebody. He is weird. That's like not a good person. Ah,

I love that final note. Okay. We will see you all on the next one. Thanks for joining us. Thank you so much, Michelle. Michelle Miller, we appreciate you. You can find all information on working with Michelle and her work in the world in the show notes. We love you guys. We'll see you on the next one. Bye.

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