189.2 - To Tip or Not to Tip? Cultural Curiosities with Liz
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Hi, everybody. My name is Shawna, and this is the American English Podcast. My goal here is to teach you the English spoken in the United States. Through common expressions, pronunciation tips, and interesting cultural snippets or stories, I hope to keep this fun, useful, and interesting. Let's do it.

Welcome back. I hope you enjoyed that last episode with my good friend Liz, where we shared our thoughts on double dipping, appropriate behavior related to gift giving, and whether you should take your shoes off when you come into someone's house. Now, this is a continuation of that chat, and you can expect to hear a lot about tipping, splitting the bill, and more.

To start off with, I'd like to cover some very useful words related to someone's willingness to spend money. Now, these won't come up in the audio part with Liz, but when you're talking about this topic, I'm certain they will. Let's start with the term frugal or thrifty. They mean the same thing.

These terms are neutral. Someone who is frugal or thrifty is careful not to spend too much money. I would consider myself frugal. If there's a cheaper brand of medicine at the grocery store, maybe a generic brand, then I might buy that option. I enjoy going to thrift stores to buy secondhand clothes. I can stay within a budget. I'm frugal or thrifty.

So once again, frugal and thrifty are neutral. People wouldn't take offense to these if you said someone is frugal or thrifty. If someone doesn't like to spend money, they never give gifts, they never share or contribute financially, you might be tempted to call them a cheapskate, stingy, or tight-fisted. These terms are typically used to criticize someone's behavior.

They're judgmental. They're pejorative, right? So they're negative. They have a negative feeling to them. Now, so if you call somebody a cheapskate or stingy because they're not spending money or they're not contributing, then they will probably be offended. Do you know any cheapskates? Anyone who has difficulty parting with a dollar or maybe even a penny?

We have actually the term penny pincher as well. You can imagine a penny stuck between someone's two fingers and they don't want to let go. He's a penny pincher. He doesn't want to spend money. Now, these terms will come in handy when you discuss the topics that are going to be talked about today. So while you listen, consider what you would do in the situations we bring up.

The next one I think is good here is this tipping confusion. So I heard from a lot of people who are not Americans and even Americans themselves, not being sure when to tip for service. And it can be very confusing. And I don't think people get it right all the time either. And it's become a cultural touchstone.

in this country that people are requesting tips more frequently now than ever before. It used to be there might be a tip jar out at a coffee shop or an ice cream parlor, but really not very many places. And now it seems like everywhere you go, a tip is requested. And also because of the payment is on the phone. And yeah, it's just so quick and instant and

swipe your card and then it's there in your face. Yeah. Yeah. And so I think even as Americans who are used to this culture, we may be thinking to ourselves, oh, shoot, should I tip for this? And I can only imagine somebody coming to visit here and thinking to themselves, oh, my God, there are so many places I'm supposed to tip and I know Americans tip and

Where does it end? Right. Totally. And I know from going out to meals with you that you are very generous. And by generous, I mean that rather than leaving 15%, which is also standard in the U.S. for after a meal, and that's on the price before tax, which I think a lot of people are confused by. Yeah. So you tip on the meal before tax.

15 to 20%. And Liz is always going on that upper tier, that 20%. Out of curiosity, have you always tipped 20%? Probably at least the last 10 years I've tipped 20%. I think servers and wait staff do a lot of really hard work. So I think 20% and I can also afford it. So I feel...

I should be getting the 20%. And then I know a lot of people don't tip that high. So then by the law of averages, hopefully that person is taking home more money. So I think about that as well. Yeah. A long time ago, and I want to put you in the same situation to see what you would do. When I was, once again, living in New York, I was in Brooklyn and I met a group of people. Most of them were foreign.

And we went to a pizza place that was about to close, but they stayed open for us. And now looking back, I realize because they were thinking about getting a potential really good tip from a big group. But after the meal, we decided to split the check and one guy was chosen to leave the tip. And he ended up, which we found out afterwards, only 50 cents on the massive amount of food that we had ordered.

And the person came running out screaming F-bombs and was so furious. I went back in this situation and I think I gave an extra like $10 or like, I don't know, 15 bucks to this person because I felt so bad.

What would you have done in that situation? Would you have explained to the group how important it is? Or like, would you have gone back and paid more money? Or I don't know. Absolutely. Yeah. I would have said something to this person because that also feels like stealing from me. So if we split the bill, for instance, and one person didn't pay any part of the bill because they were expected to pay the tip, then that person has now, in a way, stolen from me.

Right. Because I just paid for their meal.

with the expectation that they're paying part of it. That was the deal we struck. And then he chose not to pay any part of it. That's a problem to me. He didn't hold up his end of the bargain. And so then he makes this whole group look bad, makes the server feel bad because the server is now chasing you down the street because yes, they just got cheated out of money as well. And that

That takes a lot of guts to approach people in that situation as well. So that person needs to know that they did wrong. And clearly by tipping 50 cents,

did not believe they were doing anything wrong and needs to be told. Yeah, I think, and this came later on when I was doing some research about tipping and just in the U.S. in general, like what is a server actually bringing home? And I've discovered through that that 17, I believe it was 17, and I will make a correction at the end of this episode if that's not the number.

17 out of 50 states still pay under the federal minimum wage to servers. So, for example, in the state of North Carolina, that's $2.13 per hour for a server, meaning that like they absolutely rely 100% on those tips in order to have an income.

And that's like a huge portion of the states. I mean, I actually have the list here. There's only like a very small handful that are above $10 per hour. California, of course, now at least according to this list, says $6.

Wait, what is the minimum? Or what is this? I think it's 17 an hour, depending on how many employees are employed by that employer. Yeah. Yeah. So it's significantly higher in California, Alaska, Arizona, Minnesota. New York is still only 10. So these people need the tips for sure, especially the huge number that are at like $2 per hour. Yeah, very, very, very important. ♪

So a tipped wage, that means that they set it below the minimum wage in these states because the state believes that the tips will make up the rest of a server for any employee who receives a tip, their wages. So it does fall on the patron to give their wages.

staff member more money, which I don't agree with. I lived in Washington, D.C. when they were debating implementing a tip or getting rid of the tipped wage and just having a straight minimum wage for all employees who make tips as well. And the argument against that was that customers will no longer give tips if they believe their service member is

is earning minimum wage, is earning enough money already. And I thought that that was a crazy argument because I grew up in California where the minimum wage has always been a standard across the board. Yeah. And there wasn't a tipped wage. And I never once thought to myself, oh, well, I'm not going to give a tip because they're already making minimum wage. That made no sense to me because the minimum wage isn't that high. Right.

So the tip is supposed to be on top of the wages. So I thought that that was a strange argument. And I believe it was voted out. So now they have a standard minimum wage even for tipped employees. They still have like $2.13 for a ton of these states. Oh, no. I just meant in Washington, D.C. Oh, in Washington, D.C. Oh, gotcha. Yeah, I have no idea. Yeah.

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But I do remember from this episode a long time back that Shake Shack was so against the American way of tipping that he wanted to start adding the tip into the price of burgers and fries.

And they lost so much money because of it, because people didn't like to see a burger cost $20. The people prefer paying less up front and then more afterwards with the tip than seeing the full price listed up front.

With the tip? Yeah, with the tip included. Yeah. I think that was across the board at all of his restaurants. The owner is Danny Meyer. And so he did that at all of his restaurants, got rid of tipping and just increased the cost of the food. Yeah. But people didn't like that. Yeah.

Yeah, I don't know. I definitely if I saw something like a $20 burger, I also would think the same thing, even if it's the same thing as paying a $16 burger plus a $4 tip. Yes, I could see the argument being different.

Well, I'm paying for good service, but I don't know if I'm going to get good service when you're paying it as part of the cost of the meal. And maybe you have a horrible server and they get your meal wrong and they drop a drink on you and suddenly you're still having to pay them for this horrible experience. That's true. Yeah, because it's already embedded. Yeah. That's wild. I've had situations where you've seen a tip requested and you thought,

No. I think my area of most confusion is to-go orders.

When I go, I order food at a restaurant. This doesn't happen very often, but say I get sushi and I go and I pick it up and then on the screen to pay, if I didn't already pay online, it'll say, you know, do you want to leave an 18% as the first option, 18, 20 or 25? And I think, imagine paying, you know, if the meal is $70 and then you paying a, I don't know, I can't do the math real quick.

um, like 15, $16 tip or something on that. And I think, no, I didn't even sit in your restaurant. You don't have to clean any of my dishes. No, I'm not going to pay that amount of money. And so that to me is one area where I go, hmm, maybe I'll leave a few dollars just to be nice, but I can't see the justification for asking for a tip in that situation. So.

I definitely, when I'm doing a to-go order for pickup, I always tip but less the same way because I know that somebody at the restaurant put together the meal, assembled it, put it in the bag, put in the utensils, is sitting there waiting for me. But is that part of their job though? Like in, I mean, in California, when you're talking about like people there get like the 16, they already get $16.50 per hour. Like is that little movement included in the $16.50 per hour?

Maybe yes, maybe no. But it doesn't bother me to tip a few dollars and say, you know, thanks for doing this, especially if it's someplace that I'm going all the time. Yes, that's a good point. Then I certainly want to give them a little something. And because there is such a culture now of...

There being deliveries. And so if I'm going to a restaurant to pick it up and they're seeing my face and this is my order, I want to give them the money because then otherwise the tip goes to the driver, which they should absolutely get.

But then no, but none of the staff is getting the tip. So I feel like the staff should be tipped a little something for their efforts. Okay. Is there some time where you thought like I shouldn't tip or like this is infusing? Yes. So I've seen some, I would consider them more like retail stores asking for tips. I was in a souvenir shop one time.

And they turned the iPad around and it asked for a tip. And I'm like, I bought a sweatshirt. Like, no. So that's a hard no for me. Or it could just be situational. I go in, I buy a bottle of water at a Starbucks.

No, I'm not going to tip you. I picked up the water. Right. There's also, I've seen this actually come up online, but I've experienced it as well. There's a kiosk in the Newark, New Jersey airport that is unmanned. There's nobody who works at it. It's just like a little stand where you can pick up snacks and drinks. Like a vending machine? No, it's like a stand with drinks and drinks.

Okay. And I think they go by the weight of stuff that you pick up and maybe they have cameras on you. I don't know how they can tell if you're stealing or not. Amazon Go store situation. Kind of. Yeah. And then you go up and you check out and you scan it yourself. And then it asks for a tip. It's like, where's that going? There's no employee. Yeah. That's a hard no. I do have a question.

I was looking at tipping the other day and it said that when you stay in a hotel, every time that the cleaner comes into the room to make the beds, you should leave between two and five dollars. And I was I was like, that's news for me. I didn't know. I didn't know that either. I know some people leave tips like at the end of their stay. Some I've done that sometimes, especially if it's like exceptional service.

Yeah. And for a drink, you go to a bar, order one drink. Most of the time now I get a glass of wine and that takes little to no effort. So I might tip like $2. I got like a fancy cocktail. It used to be like $1 per drink, but everything's gotten more expensive. So yeah. Money flying everywhere. Take it all.

Did you see that movie with Matilda? You saw Matilda, right? Where there's like the money machine and like, let's get sticky with Mickey. And he's standing inside this machine covered in glue and like money's flying. Anyway, so yeah, tipping. Is there anything else you want to say about tipping? I mean, it is such a big topic. Yeah, it really is. I think for listeners who are maybe visiting the United States,

Tipping isn't expected everywhere. I think the few places where it is always expected is out at a restaurant. Mm-hmm. Probably getting a cup of coffee. Service industry stuff, right? Yeah. So even getting your hair done. Absolutely, your nails. Yeah. Someone who's performing a service for you. Mm-hmm.

And their skills are appreciated. Definitely, definitely important. Especially you don't want people chasing you down, screaming F-bombs in your face. No. Because they need to pay their rent and they didn't get their full wage. Too close for comfort. Have you ever felt like people are too touchy-feely or too close where you just realize that your personal space is different from theirs?

Yes. Recently, we went to Disneyland. And when you're standing in line to get on a ride, sometimes people feel really comfortable standing right on top of you.

And I always think to myself, we're all going to the same place. Like you do not need to be an inch from me. If I take half a step forward, you don't also, person standing behind me, need to take that little half a step forward. If we're moving forward a few centimeters, don't, I'm mostly shifting my body weight. Don't stand right up on me. Yeah. Especially in these times like

quote unquote, post COVID. I really don't want people right up on top of me. Yeah. Because then I start to think to myself, is there some sort of other motive that this person has? You know, are they trying to steal your wallet from your purse?

Or like, I don't know, feel me or something. I don't know what they're trying, getting a whiff of my hair. I don't know what other weirdos are doing. I'm trying to smell your good hair, Liz. Your hair is always perfect. They're like, herbal essences or what brand of shampoo is this? And I know it's a cultural thing whether people are comfortable with people being really close to them.

I am personally not. And I think most people in this country don't like having other people being really close to them. So what is what is comfortable? Say we are and I know this might be a little confusing for people because measurement is not the same in the U.S. People don't use feet and inches. But if you're talking to somebody you just met, chatting about the neighborhood, whatever.

How much distance should there be between your face and their face? Maybe a little less than an arm's length.

I was thinking about three feet, but like a little less than three feet, which is exactly probably the length of your arm. Yeah. I think that would be okay, particularly given whatever situation you're in. If it's loud or something, you need to stand closer to hear. Sure. No problem. I don't think somebody's going to think out of that of, oh, I can't hear you. Let me stand closer. But if you just met somebody and they're a couple inches away,

I'm going to naturally lean backwards. I may smell wonderful, have great breath, be handsome. I don't want to be that close to anybody. I feel like it's weird when you can feel the breath coming at you. Or, yeah, smell it is even worse. Yeah.

Yeah, it's an interesting thing. I've noticed a lot from shopping in other countries that people tend to get really close. Like say the aisle is really, the aisle is long. There's a lot of food, but they want to get something that's right next to you and they'll stand next to you or like come right in front. And for me, it's this awareness of like, whoa. Stand back. Yeah. Because I think it's most common here if you're doing that little way, being really interested in something.

further down the aisle waiting for somebody to get out of the way of the thing that you want. Exactly. If that goes on for maybe more than a minute, you would walk up and say, oh, excuse me, can I grab this? Yes. And then that is completely acceptable. People are generally fine with that. Yeah. But if you just reached over somebody instead of asking, that's when it's a cultural no-no.

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I never know when I should speak up, you know, when it's a teaching moment, because it can come across so poorly to actually mention cultural differences.

I don't know when to do it. Like the double dipping we talked about in the beginning, you either have to say it before it starts and talk about it because once it started, it's awkward. It's already awkward. You can't speak up. Or, you know, we've had this issue with toilet paper. A lot of people don't have toilet paper.

They're not allowed to throw their toilet paper in the trash can or in the toilet. And so they use the trash can for that. Whereas in the U.S., I've never seen that anywhere, not unless it's like a specific toilet where the piping is too small or something. And they might have a sign on the wall to say, you know, make sure to throw it in the trash. But I've seen that only probably a few times in my entire life.

And so that's another situation that's 100% awkward. If people are visiting my house and I don't say it the moment they walk in the door, then it's as if I'm complaining about what they've done not culturally okay. I mean, I don't want to say it's not culturally okay. It's just not custom. Yeah. That's the way I see. I agree with you. You say something early.

So then it's not uncomfortable later of, I've been doing this for four years and you never said anything. And you're like, then you feel worse. Then you really can't say anything. And I think that comes up with name pronunciation too. If you don't correct somebody early on when you meet them of how your name is pronounced or how their name, how you're mispronouncing somebody else's name, you go by years mispronouncing that person's name. Yeah.

And that I'd rather be corrected early on. Right. Perfect. So if you have food in your teeth, do you want someone to say something immediately? Like you're in a group. 100% of the time. Yeah. Even if you're at a business meeting, everybody at the table. Yeah. Straight to your face, Liz, you've got a piece of spinach between your two front teeth. Yeah. Yes.

Usually there's a little gesture. You try to make eye contact with the person and show your finger to your tooth. I'm like, hey, you've got something here. And then that's like, I think, a universal sign of, oh my gosh, I have something in my teeth. And you try to take care of it. I mean, I try not to do it in a way that's like, hey, everybody, Shauna has a big piece of food in her teeth.

We actually have a family way to do this. And I think it started with Nina when she was visiting. We say, how's Alice? And how's Alice means how are my teeth? And then you say, oh, she's, you know, having a party in the front yard, which means you have something in the front of your teeth. Or you can really get creative with how Alice is. If she's fine, then you have absolutely nothing in your teeth. And it really works very smoothly.

But usually it's very funny because the smile is usually pretty huge when the person asks, how's Alice? That's cute. I think I'm probably more attuned to things being in my teeth. I've had people make fun of me for this for forever. If I finish a meal, I'll hold up a knife or anything reflective. I usually carry a mirror in my purse and I will check my teeth.

Because I don't trust everybody else around me to tell me, but I will always be the first person to tell somebody else that they have something in their teeth. Well, I will forever tell you now. That's for sure. Oh, a lookout for Alice. Yeah. Oh, and I thought you were going to say you carry a knife in your purse. Oh, no. Because you connected those real quick. I was like, Liz? No, let's make that clear. I will take a knife off the table that I had been eating with to check.

Or I use a mirror that I keep in my purse. Oh, my God. Yeah. Too good. Is there anything else awkward that you can think of that we did not cover where you're just like, hmm? Something you mentioned when you reached out to me about recording this was dating and who pays on dates.

Ooh, good. It's your opinion. Okay. Been in relationships for a long time, but... Yeah. Going Dutch is what we call this in English. And I'm not sure what the etymology is. Why we say to go Dutch, which means to split the bill at the end of a meal between like a male and female when it is a dating sort of situation. Yeah.

So for me on a first date, I know it sounds so weird and maybe it's a little old fashioned of me, but I feel like the male should pay on the first date. That's me. And then thereafter, I think, I mean, a couple comes to an agreement, like maybe they earn different financially and then one

And I was happy to pay that perfectly fine. When Lucas came around and he's, you know, got a different background, he was like, no, I pay for everything. And I was like, well, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know.

I was like, okay. Like I was broke at the time. Like, sure. This is lovely. Which was kind of funny because I was still in contact with my friends from Brooklyn. One of my roommates was a complete, like really, really strong feminist where she was like, absolutely not. Never. Not once will anyone pay for my meal in a relationship. The other one said, oh,

Pay for me all you want. Yeah. For me, it's whatever. But I do like feeling a little bit pampered and a little bit appreciated, especially in the first date. So, yeah. I agree. A first date, I would expect the man to pay. I actually went on what I thought was a date with somebody one time, actually right before I met my husband or my husband and I started dating. And he didn't pay. We got...

We were out all day having fun. And then we stopped to get lunch, some burgers, very low key. And he didn't pay. He made it very clear. He stood off to the side and waited for me to order first and paid for my $10 burger and fries, whatever it was. And then he went through. And he comes from a very privileged background. And I was like, you know what?

It just told me something about the situation of this is where you're setting my expectations of, you know, you're not going to get this little thing for me. You're not thinking of me. And that really turned me off like right away. I think the kids say it gave me the ick. I just read something about this. Yeah. We were out all day. We were doing stuff. Both of us were paying back and forth. Like it was vibe. You're vibing and it was things were good. Right.

And you think he had the expectation of another date too, right? Like it was like going in the direction of, yes, this could become something. But then, okay. Yeah, I see. Yeah. And so I would generally expect on a first date for the man to pay, you know, I'm not saying, you know, thousands of dollars of everything, but you go out to a meal and he picks up a check. Lovely.

Thereafter, I agree with you. Maybe we go out for drinks one night and I pay. Or we're going dinner and a movie and I got the movie tickets, he's getting dinner. I don't mind there being some sort of trade-off. But I think the food state sets a feeling. I understand in a way some people not wanting to ever be paid for because they don't want to feel like they owe the other person anything.

But I think if you're asking somebody out, you pay because you're inviting them. Right. Would you like to have dinner with me? Right.

Yeah, I think it got to the point where one of my roommates thought it would be offensive if someone was suggesting they pay for the meal because it would mean that she was like less or had a worse job or something. And I'm like, I wouldn't take it too personal. It's just a nice gesture, you know. I think there's a lot of triggers that people have these days. I think communication is key. Yes. They're a...

If somebody does not want the other person to pay, then they say, hey, I'll be paying for my own half. Or you tell the server, you don't even have to tell the other person, but this bill is going to be split and you put my meal on mine and his on his. Different people expect different things. But for me personally, that first date should be on the man. Maybe that's traditional dating.

I'm the same way. That's what I expect. Yeah. Yep. And anyone can feel free to disagree. So to each his own. Now, to use the term to go Dutch, would you say that going out with friends, you could use this term? I wouldn't use it. Like let's go Dutch? No. No. Okay. So only for like a date.

Because if you're amongst friends, you would just say, oh, do you guys want to split the bill or can we split the bill? Do you feel differently? Would you use that? I don't know. Maybe. But yeah, you can say, let's go Dutch. They went out on a date and they split the check. They went Dutch and passed. Yeah. And I think it's also like a more antiquated term. People would just say, we split the bill. Right.

Well, thank you so much for coming on the show today. That was a really fun, awkward, I guess not an awkward conversation, a normal conversation about awkward stuff, which I really enjoyed. Yes. And I always enjoy being on the podcast. Yeah. Come back whenever you want. Seriously. Always welcome. Thank you so much. Thank you. Bye. You're welcome. Bye.

That's the end of this episode. I'd like to finish this chat with a few questions for you to bring to your language class. Number one, what do you think of the tipping culture in the United States? Did you know that in many states, servers receive around $2.13 per hour and require your tip in order to make a regular living wage?

That's pretty crazy, isn't it? Liz and I both agree. That's not enough money. That's why it's important to tip. Don't be a cheapskate. The second thing, in your country, is it common to go Dutch or to split the check when you're on a first date? I'm curious. Can you think of some other interesting questions you might ask someone related to today's topic?

Can you answer those questions yourself? Be a proactive learner. I'm going to end this episode now. It was really nice chatting with you guys. I hope you enjoyed this. Once again, if you would like the premium content, you can access that at AmericanEnglishPodcast.com or you'll find the link in the episode notes. Enjoy the rest of your day. Bye.

Thank you for listening to this episode of the American English Podcast. Remember, it's my goal here to not only help you improve your listening comprehension, but to show you how to speak like someone from the States. If you want to receive the full transcript for this episode, or you just want to support this podcast, make sure to sign up to premium content on AmericanEnglishPodcast.com. Thanks and hope to see you soon.

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Or throwing a bumping shindig.

At Verizon, we're doing all that in the form of special military offers. That's why this month only, we're giving military and veteran families a $200 Verizon gift card and a phone on us with a select trade-in and a new line on select unlimited plans. Think of it as our way of flying a squadron of jets overhead while launching fireworks. Now that's what we call a celebration because we're proud to serve you. Visit your local Verizon store to learn more.

$200 Verizon gift card requires smartphone purchase $799.99 or more with new line on eligible plan. Gift card sent within eight weeks after receipt of claim. Phone offer requires $799.99 purchase with new smartphone line on unlimited ultimate or postpaid unlimited plus. Minimum plan $80 a month with auto pay plus taxes and fees for 36 months. Less $800 trade-in or promo credit applied over 36 months. 0% APR. Trade-in must be from Apple, Google, or Samsung. Trade-in and additional terms apply.