370 Citabria Theft, Beach Landing and Recovery with Rachael Webster & DC Midair Update + GA News
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You may have heard a little about Rachel Webster's story about her Satabria being stolen last year and left on the beach. Today we'll talk with Rachel about what that was like and about the long repair process. Also after the news, we'll give you a number of updates on the Reagan National Midair Collision and we'll talk about the limitations of portable ADS-B receivers and why they won't show you all of the traffic around you.

Hello again and welcome to Aviation News Talk where we talk general aviation. My name is Max Trescott. I've been flying for 50 years. I'm the author of several books and the 2008 National Flight Instructor of the Year. And my mission is to help you become the safest possible pilot.

Last week in episode 368, we talked with former NTSB investigator Jeff Gazzetti about the NTSB investigation process. And later in the week, we replayed an NTSB press conference that revealed new black box data about the midair collision at Reagan National. So if you didn't hear those episodes, you may want to check them out at aviationnewstalk.com slash 368 and 369.

And if you're new to the show, take a moment right now in whatever app you're using, touch either the subscribe key or if you're using the Spotify or the Apple podcast app, the follow key. So the next week's episode is downloaded for free.

And see if you know any of these people who've recently joined the club to sign up and support Aviation News Talk. They include a new monthly donor, John Mahaney, and these one-time donors, Charles Thompson, Brooks Maxidon, Richard Krulik, and Scott Wilson. And if you'd like to hear your name next week, sign up now to support the show by going out to aviationnewstalk.com slash support.

And you can also support the show whenever you buy a new Lightspeed headset. When you do, Lightspeed will send a check to support Aviation News Talk, but only if you first go out to the web to a special URL we've set up for you, which is aviationnewstalk.com slash lightspeed. Coming up in the news for the week of February 17th, 2025, a Delta regional jet crashed in Toronto and everyone survived. Layoffs have hit the FAA and the automated Skyrise helicopter achieves a new milestone.

All this and more in the News Starts Now. From FlightSafety.org, a Delta Connection CRJ-900 regional jet operated by Endeavour Air was destroyed on Monday following a landing accident on runway 23 at the Toronto Pearson International Airport in Toronto. The four crew members and 76 passengers survived, but 18 people were injured, three of them seriously.

Several videos captured the accident sequence. On touchdown, the right main gear collapsed and the right wing contacted the ground causing a fire. The wing dragged along the surface for about three seconds before the aircraft flipped inverted. A post-crash fire ensued, which was mostly contained by airport emergency services.

Photos from the scene show the right wing had separated and the aircraft came to a rest inverted. The main gear and tail control surfaces were impact damaged and separated as well. The left wing and nose gear remained attached to the airframe. About 12 minutes before the accident, the automated surface observation system reported winds from 270 at 28 gusting to 35 knots, 6 mile visibility and blowing snow.

I looked at the video that emerged on Tuesday, and while the aircraft had a stable approach, the video showed that the aircraft never flared and descended straight down into the runway. That high-impact landing likely collapsed the right landing gear, as we can see the right wing low dragging out of the ground. A few seconds later, the wing broke off, and the aircraft rolled 180 degrees, ending upside down.

The automated weather said that there was blowing snow at the time, and I wouldn't be surprised if that blowing snow made it difficult for the crew to judge their height above the runway. And on Wednesday morning, there was another fatal mid-air collision, this time between a Cessna 172 and a Lancer over the runway at Marana Regional Airport in Arizona. The two people in the Lancer died, but the occupants of the 172 were able to follow another traffic pattern and land safely. And I'll give you more details about that during my updates.

From ABC15.com, one person was killed and four others were injured in an aircraft crash on a runway last week at the Scottsdale Airport. Officials say around 2.30 p.m., a landing Learjet veered off the runway and crashed into a larger jet that was parked near a private hangar. Officials believe the jet's left main gear failed upon landing, leading to the crash.

Five people were involved in the accident, one of whom died at the scene. Three other people were taken to a hospital to be treated for various injuries, and another person refused treatment. Now, I've looked at the ADS-B data, and it appears that the Learjet was largely stabilized on its approach. There is a video of the jet veering off the runway, but it doesn't capture the moment of touchdown. My guess is that this was a hard landing that led to a collapse of the landing gear, but it could also have been a mechanical issue, such as a stress fracture in the landing gear.

From Reuters.com, U.S. Transportation Secretary Sean Duffy said on Monday that the FAA fired fewer than 400 employees out of its workforce of 45,000. Quote, less than 400 were let go, and they were all probationary, meaning that they had been hired less than a year ago.

Zero air traffic controllers and critical safety personnel were let go. The administration sent air traffic controllers buyout letter offers, but later said they were not eligible, also declaring other safety officials, including TSA officers, ineligible. The FAA remains about 3,500 controllers short of targeted staffing levels.

Professional Aviation Safety Specialist Union said that it believed that just under 300 FAA workers that it represents were fired, including maintenance mechanics, aeronautical information specialists, aviation safety assistants, and management and program assistants. From avweb.com, aviation pauses ALICE development.

Electric aircraft developer Eviation has laid off most of its staff and paused work on its ALICE prototype. The company has confirmed in an initial report by the Air Current that it had all but ceased operations at Arlington Airport in Washington state. In a statement, the company said it was identifying the right long-term partnerships to help us make electric commercial regional flight a reality.

Singapore-based Claremont Group is the majority owner and said it's still committed to the venture but needs, quote, long-term strategic partners who share our vision and passion for building the future of flight.

The twin-motor Alice, which has its rear-mounted power plants and tractor configuration, flew once in 2022, and the time since then has been spent tweaking the design. The plane is designed to carry nine people 290 miles and has attracted 600 orders worth $5 billion. The company had hoped to begin deliveries in 2027. And there have been two crashes of Cessna 208 Caravans within eight days of each other. This first one comes from FlyingMag.com.

The NTSB is investigating the cause of a fatal Cessna 208B Grand Caravan crash in Alaska that occurred on February 6th. According to the National Weather Service, conditions were foggy with light snow when the flight departed. Contact with the aircraft was lost less than an hour later. FlightRadar24 flight tracking data showed the aircraft over Norton Sound when contact ended.

The wreckage was located later about 12 miles offshore on an ice floe on Norton Sound. The aircraft wreckage was removed over the weekend. The pilot and nine passengers were confirmed dead. And from FlaglerLive.com...

A man piloting an Eagle Air Transport Cessna 208 crashed in an isolated wooded area of Flagler County near Lake Diston on Friday evening for unknown reasons. The pilot died and there were no passengers. Flagler County Sheriff Rick Staley, speaking from the scene, said, quote, Just a little after midnight we located the aircraft. It was pitch dark last night. There was no moon, a lot of cloud coverage. It was about the worst conditions you can imagine to try to find an aircraft.

deputies walked the area and noticed the smell of fuel. He said that allowed us to have the Volusia County helicopter pointed in the smaller area, and they spotted one of the tires. Eagle Air Transport is an Ottawa, Illinois-based company that operates eight planes in support of the skydiving industry. I do want to note that the 208 and its reliable turbine engine has a relatively good safety record. For example, there was just one fatal 208 crash in all of 2024, and that plane was also used for skydiving.

And we've had a rash of stolen airplane stories. These stories come from the past three to four weeks. From NBCLosAngeles.com, stolen trailer carrying small plane found burned on Long Beach Street. A pilot who sought the public's help in identifying the person who stole a trailer containing his small plane found what was left of his property in the form of burnt bits and pieces.

The burnt frame of the trailer that was holding his aircraft is all that was salvageable after the odd find was discovered in Long Beach. It was stolen January 6th from a parking lot in Torrance. Honest Prodham told NBC4, I'm heartbroken about it. It's just not an airplane to me, it's my work. I've dedicated all my time into it to put it together so it will be a whole airplane to be flown and teach.

According to the Long Beach Fire Department, firefighters spotted the trailer and plane in their city intentionally set on fire. Surveillance cameras captured the driver of a white truck pulling into a parking lot on Loch Ness Avenue near Sepulveda Boulevard in Torrance on the evening of January 6th. He then attached Pradham's trailer to his car and drove off less than two minutes later. Pradham said once they figured out they couldn't sell the plane or the trailer, they didn't want to leave the evidence, they just torched it up. No arrests have been made.

And from abc3340.com, airplanes stolen from Mississippi found. Now this one's a mouthful. The Mississippi Agricultural and Livestock Theft Bureau, otherwise known as MULT-B, with help from the Chilton County, Alabama Sheriff's Office, successfully recovered a Piper Archer II airplane stolen from Indianola Airport in Sunflower County, Mississippi.

Sunflower County Sheriff's Department initially reported the theft on December 20, 2024. Investigators from Maltby were called in to assist. The breakthrough came on January 17 when a stolen Corvette was stopped by the Madison Police Department for a traffic violation. Authorities said information gathered from the Corvette led investigators to Jemison, Alabama, where the airplane was found and recovered.

Authorities said the woman driver of the stolen Corvette was arrested and charged with receiving stolen property, possession of a controlled substance, and possession of a stolen firearm with a controlled substance. During questioning, she was identified as the girlfriend of a man who had been arrested by Maltby for stealing a tractor and side-by-side, which is a four-wheeled off-road vehicle, from the Indianola Airport. Further investigation linked the Corvette to the stolen 1976 Piper Archer aircraft.

And finally, from GlobalAir.com, Skyrise One completes fully automated landing with the swipe of a finger. Skyrise announced that after seven years of work, the company completed the world's first fully automated set down with the swipe of a finger. The news comes just one month after the company showcased its Skyrise One executing a fully automated hover with another swipe of a finger. With this latest milestone, Skyrise is progressing closer to its mission to make flying simpler and allow anyone to fly an aircraft.

The Skyrise 1 First Edition sold out in just six months and has already earned a special airworthiness certificate from the FAA.

In January, Skyrise announced that effective February 1, Skyrise 1 would see a price increase of 10% to $2 million as the company transitions from the first edition aircraft to the general production run. And by the way, I just read that Skyrise is one of five finalists for the Collier Trophy this year, so good luck to them. And in 2015, I was a member of the Collier Selection Committee, and it was an honor to serve and help select the winner.

Coming up next, a few of my updates, including about the Reagan National Midair and the Learjet crash in Scottsdale. And I'll also talk about the limitations of portable ADS-B receivers and why they don't show you all the traffic around you. And then later, Rachel Webster will tell us her story about her stolen Satabria and the long road to getting it repaired. All right here on the Aviation News Talk podcast. ♪

And now let's get to the good news. First, congratulations to mega supporter Kenneth Salosky. He writes, greetings, Max. I get a lot of value from your podcast and take away valuable information from every episode. Proud to be a Patreon mega supporter. I was honored to be awarded an AOPA 2025 Flight Training Award as Distinguished Flight Instructor. And I believe the information I learned in your podcast definitely played a role in making me a better CFI. Thanks for your efforts in making me a better pilot.

fly safe. Well, congratulations to you, Kenneth. I believe he teaches at Nassau Flyers on Long Island. And by the way, I was watching the TV show The Night Agent on Netflix recently, and there was a scene that was shot in one of the hangars at a Nassau Flyer. So that was kind of cool.

And now let me tell you about our video of the week. This is related to one of our stories that we talked about, the crash of a Cessna 208 in Florida. And this video was shot from the camera systems of a Volusia County Bell 407 helicopter as they assisted Flagler County Sheriff's deputies in searching for the wreckage of the 208. This occurred at about 12:30 a.m. on a moonless night. And it's a recording from the helicopter's infrared camera.

It shows deputies on the ground as the camera operator talks them through the woods to the scene of the wreckage. And it really displays the remarkable capabilities of these camera systems.

To see our video of the week and all of our videos of the week, you want to go out to aviationnewstalk.com slash video. And what you're going to see is at the top of the page, links for ways that you can support the show. And then at the bottom page, links to our videos. We have four different ways to support the show financially. And if you don't know how to choose, let me recommend that you sign up via Patreon and sign up with a monthly donation at various tier levels, depending upon how much you'd like to donate. Again, just go on out to aviationnewstalk.com slash video.

And let me mention that we have a Lightspeed giveaway. If you haven't signed up for that yet, head on out to aviationnewstalk.com slash giveaway. Lightspeed is going to be giving away a free Delta Zulu headset every quarter this year to an Aviation News Talk listener.

And I mentioned during the news the Skyrise 1 helicopter. We talked about Skyrise 1 last year in episode 339. It's notable because it takes a Robinson R-66 and replaces the traditional controls, such as the cyclic, collective, and pedals with a single joystick. And I wanted to let you know that I visited them again three months ago, and I wrote what is the lead article in the February issue of Flying Magazine, all about Skyrise.

This includes a lot of great photos and gives more details about this revolutionary helicopter. So if you don't subscribe to Flying Magazine, just head on out to flyingmag.com to subscribe and read about Skyrise 1 and see the other articles that I've written, including my new monthly column.

Now let's start with some updates on the Reagan-Mitter collision. A lot of news has come out in the past week. First, the FAA has imposed temporary restrictions on helicopter traffic around Reagan-Washington National, and permanent restrictions may be on the horizon. Also last week in episode 369...

where he replayed an NTSB press conference. A key piece of information that came out from that was that the Blackhawk cockpit voice recorder showed that the helicopter briefly keyed their mic for .8 seconds and hence missed the words, which is the instruction that was telling them to pass behind the CRJ.

As you probably know, when you key the microphone and transmit, you can't hear any other transmissions, which is why it's critical that we all listen before transmitting on a frequency. And equally important, if when you're pressing the mic button, you hear a fraction of a syllable, then that means someone else has started to transmit and you need to release your mic button so that you can hear what they're saying and so that you're not blocking their transmission from being heard by others.

Now, it's unlikely the helicopter crew was making a .8 second long transmission, so more than likely one of the pilots may have thought the tower was done speaking and keyed the microphone, but then perhaps heard a syllable from the tower, realized the tower was still speaking, and released the mic button to hear them. Sometimes it's

absolutely impossible to avoid pressing the microphone at the same time that someone else is starting to talk. But we can avoid some of those situations if we listen before transmitting. And if you hear something just as you're about to start to press the mic button, release the mic button and let the other person speak.

Another thing that came out this week is a 3D visibility study that was done by the Washington Post. NTSB has announced that they will be doing a visibility study, but we probably won't hear anything about that for a year or so. Undoubtedly, it will be far more detailed and accurate than the Post data, since they'll be able to use FAA radar tracks, which will be more accurate than the ground tracks currently available through public websites.

The post headline says it all. 3D analysis shows how helicopter pilots could have mixed up jets in DCA crash. That's something I thought of when I first reported on the crash, and I noted then that at the time the Army helicopter was told to look for the CRJ, there were no other aircraft between the CRJ and the runway. I did see that there was an aircraft behind the CRJ, but didn't mention it as it was seemingly so far behind the CRJ that I didn't think the helicopter crew was likely to confuse the two aircraft. But

But the post-simulation makes some interesting points, and I now think the helicopter crew probably was looking at the aircraft behind the CRJ. The post writes that a minute and 52 seconds before impact, from the point of view of the helicopter, the two aircraft approaching Reagan National appear almost in the same position and may have been hard to tell apart or may have appeared as one light, especially if the crew were wearing night vision goggles.

About a minute before impact, the CRJ continues to curve east and north from the helicopter crew's perspective. Their lights are likely blending in with those of the city. Pilots have said that night vision goggles amplify light, making it hard to tell light sources apart. On the other hand, the aircraft behind the CRJ was flying over the dark river. Pilots told the Post that this would have made the plane's lights far easier for the helicopter crew to see.

17 seconds before impact, the controller instructed the helicopter, PAT-25, pass behind the CRJ. Of course, those words behind the were the ones that didn't come through. At this point, the CRJ is curving northwest toward the airport. The jet's position and the angle of approach could cause the landing lights to appear less prominent and potentially go unnoticed by the helicopter crew.

And you've probably noticed this too when you fly at night. When an aircraft is pointed right at you, its landing light appears very bright. But as the aircraft turns away from you, the landing light becomes far less visible. So this is the most credible theory I've heard of why the helicopter crew may have misidentified the CRJ and were instead looking at the aircraft behind the CRJ, which was pointed more in the helicopter's direction and had since landing light was far more prominent than that of the CRJ.

And this points out a flaw in our current system where ATC asks a pilot if they have traffic in sight and a pilot responds that yes, they have traffic in sight because some of the time pilots are looking at a different aircraft than the one ATC has asked them to look for. And it's almost impossible to catch this air unless there's another pilot in the aircraft or unless you're referencing an in-cockpit traffic solution to see if there are other aircraft in the area that you may have misidentified.

For example, sometimes when I'm teaching, a pilot may report they have traffic in sight, and they point to a distant airliner which may appear closer than it is because those aircraft are so large. But in fact, ATC was referring to a closer, smaller aircraft than the pilot spotted.

I'm lucky in that I specialize in teaching in glass cockpit aircraft, and almost all of these aircraft have some kind of traffic display. And I'm constantly watching these displays when we're in crowded airspace or in the vicinity of an airport. One other interesting thing that came out of the Post article was this statement, quote,

The UH-60L Black Hawk does not come with a radar screen that shows other aircraft traffic, an Army official said. It is common for helicopter crews to use iPads with an app that can track flights, though it is unclear if the crew was using one. So eventually we'll have a better idea if this crew was using any kind of traffic screen.

In the meantime, if you don't have a traffic display in your aircraft, you may want to enhance your safety by buying a portable traffic solution that you can use with an EFB app such as ForeFlight or Garmin Pilot. But please be aware that these portable systems have a number of limitations. They are inferior to most avionics traffic screens, and they won't show you all the traffic out there. I've talked about these limitations eight years ago in episode 10, and I'm going to replay that clip for you now.

Okay, let's talk about portable ADS-B receivers. I'm prompted to do this because yesterday I was doing a checkout with somebody who was interested in flying an airplane. He brought with him his Stratus portable ADS-B receiver, and I mentioned to him, are there any limitations to what traffic you can see on that? And he thought, no, this shows everything that's out there. And I thought, wow, I thought everybody...

knew this about portable ADS-B receivers, but apparently not. So let's take one step backwards, talk about ADS-B. I'm going to quote here from an article I wrote when I was a columnist at EAA magazine a few years ago.

And I wrote that ADS-B stands for Automatic Dependent Surveillance Broadcasting. Now, there are two ADS-B capabilities. There's ADS-B out. That's the only one mandated by the new rule. And it refers to an aircraft broadcasting its position and other information. Unfortunately, aircraft equipping with ADS-B out will spend thousands but not gain any new benefits.

Owners can elect to equip with ADS-B in, which allows an aircraft to receive traffic information from other ADS-B out equipped aircraft, surface vehicles, and FAA ground stations. One type of ADS-B in equipment can also receive free in-cockpit weather information.

Now, ADS-B won't be required everywhere, but it will be required if you're going to fly above 10,000 feet MSL, unless you're within 2,500 feet of the ground, which means you'd be next to a mountain somewhere. Also, if you're within 30 miles of some mostly Class B airports, it's going to be required. And when flying either under or above or through Class Bravo and Charlie airspace, there is an exclusion related to flying within 30 miles of Class B airports for any aircraft not originally certificated with an engine-driven electrical system.

Now, a significant kludge in the FAA's ADS-B architecture is that there are two standards for ADS-B, 1090ES and 978UAT, which operate on different frequencies.

Now, the upshot of that is that aircraft equipped with 1090ES cannot directly detect UAT-equipped aircraft and vice versa. Instead, they have to rely on about 800 sets of cross-linked ground-based transceivers that rebroadcast all the ADS-B signals they receive on both frequencies. This allows all ADS-B-equipped aircraft, regardless of the frequency they use to see each other, except when they are not within line of sight of a ground-based ADS-B site. Now,

This can occur particularly at low altitudes, so pilots of all ADS-B equipped aircraft still need to look out the window to avoid other aircraft. Now, in the U.S., aircraft flying above 18,000 feet will be required to equip with 1090ES. Aircraft that remain below 18,000 can choose either 1090ES or 978UAT.

Most other countries are using the 1090ES standard, so aircraft owners traveling internationally will want to equip with 1090ES. But 978UAT will be attractive to some owners since it can display free weather data in the cockpit.

Now, how did we get to ADS-B standards? Seems kind of weird, right? 978UAT is technically a superior system since it's got a faster data transfer rate and it can accommodate up to 500 aircraft simultaneously. However, the airlines weren't particularly interested in free weather and they preferred a system that was compatible with all other countries, which would be the 1090ES.

There may have also been concerns that if all U.S. aircraft were equipped with 1090ES, this lower bandwidth system could become saturated in large metropolitan areas with too many aircraft.

Having a separate 978UAT alternative offloads aircraft from the 1098ES standard by offering a carrot to users in the form of free weather. So the idea was that small airplanes might go with that 978UAT because they have free weather, which would get them off the frequencies being used by the airliners.

But here's the rub when it comes to using portable ADS-B receivers. In the FAA's original deployment of ADS-B in Alaska, which was the Capstone project back in about 2003, the ADS-B ground stations there broadcast continuously in unlimited mode, meaning that all traffic data for all aircraft was continuously broadcasted.

However, here in the U.S., new ADS-B ground stations being deployed in the lower 48 broadcast what they call a custom payload, meaning they only broadcast traffic threats for participating aircraft. That means those who are equipped with ADS-B out. Thus, if you have just a portable ADS-B receiver and no ADS-B out in your aircraft, you will be seeing traffic threats for other ADS-B out-equipped aircraft, but you won't be seeing the traffic threats for your own aircraft.

Now, iPadPilotNews.com has an article that talks a little bit more about that in detail. Now, this is an older article from 2012, and it's talking about the Garmin GDL39 portable ADS-B receiver. But everything they say applies to all of the other portable ADS-B receivers on the market, such as Stratus and others.

What they say is there are two basic ways to get ADS-B traffic with a portable ADS-B receiver. Air-to-air and ground uplink. Air-to-air is straightforward. All airplanes equipped with ADS-B out will transmit their location and the GDL-39 will pick up these transmissions directly.

Because the GDL-39 is dual-band, that is, it receives on both 1090ES and 978, it will receive all ADS-B out transmissions from nearby aircraft. No ground stations ever come into play. Between the air-to-air traffic and the ground uplink traffic, you get a very complete picture of traffic around you. Just like weather, you have to be in range of an ADS-B ground station to receive this data.

Now, there's a catch. Unfortunately, it's not that simple. You will only receive this TISB information, that is the information sent to you from the ground, if you are equipped with ADS-B out.

The FAA wants to encourage pilots to equip their airplanes with ADS-B out, so they're requiring this equipment in order to receive traffic information. Their hope is that this incentive gets more airplanes flying with ADS-B out sooner. Many pilots think this is a bad idea. Yeah, I'm one of those. But regardless, it's the way the system works right now. All is not lost. If you do not have ADS-B out, but you are flying near another airplane that is transmitting ADS-B out, you can be a parasite.

That is, you can listen in on that airplane's traffic message and display nearby airplanes for that aircraft on your iPad. That's because each ADS-B out airplane receives back an ADS-B in traffic package from the ground station, and it's specifically tailored to their location. In particular, that ADS-B out airplane will see all traffic within a 15-mile radius and plus and minus 3,500 feet of their altitude.

And that's being described as a hockey puck. So if you're flying in that hockey puck close to a participating airplane that has ADS-B out, you will have traffic uplinked from the ground in addition to the air-to-air traffic.

This is the best case scenario as you'll have free traffic that rivals a $15,000 active traffic system. But as you can imagine, staying within 15 miles and 3,500 feet of an ADS-B airplane can be a serious limitation. When you're outside their hockey puck, you will only see air-to-air traffic, which is fairly limited.

And they summarize it by saying, here's the one thing that is easy to remember. If you do not have ADS-B out installed in your aircraft, you will not get reliable traffic on your iPad. That doesn't mean it's worthless, just incomplete. Most often you'll see lots of air-to-air ADS-B traffic, which is usually airline and cargo jets.

But for aircraft that don't have ADS-B out and are using a portable ADS-B receiver, this traffic feature is most useful in terminal areas such as Class B and Class C airports where airliners are coming into land. There you'll see a lot of air-to-air ADS-B traffic regardless of what ground stations are around. This is handy if you're flying into a major airport, but GA traffic is very limited with ASB right now, so you won't see much at the country airport.

So I guess the bottom line from my perspective is please, please, please be aware that if you're using a portable ADS-B receiver, you are not seeing all the traffic. There may be an airplane right next to you that doesn't show up, even though your display shows lots of airplanes other places.

In some ways, to me, this is a little bit misleading, much like looking at XM radar. You know, people look at the XM radar weather picture and they go, oh, yeah, the rain is right there. Well, no, that's where the rain was somewhere between, you know, 7 and maybe 12 minutes ago.

because things keep moving around. I think the problem we have is people look at a computer display and they just believe that whatever they see there is the entire story. And it's really important to understand where is that computer getting that data and what data is it not getting?

Okay, enough on ADS-B. I think, by the way, we'll have to talk about traffic systems more in the future because I also find a lot of people don't know all the differences between TIS and TAS and ADS-B and so on. But coming up next, listener questions on basic med and how one flight school is cutting the cost of flight training.

Now, if you don't own a portable ADS-B receiver and you're interested in buying one, head on out to my website, aviationnewstalk.com, and click on ADS-B receivers at the top of the page, and you'll see a number of them listed there.

And I'd like to pass along this feature request to ForeFlight. We've had their founders on the show before, and I know some of their employees listen to the show. I would really love to see a dedicated traffic page in ForeFlight. One that essentially looks like the traffic page in the Garmin G1000, where the background is black and there are concentric rings on the page that show distances from your aircraft, such as 1, 2, 6, and 12 miles.

As traffic is currently depicted in ForeFlight on that main map page, traffic targets tend to blend in with all the other information on the map and they don't stand out. Plus, in order to figure out the distance to a target, you have to tap the target to find out it's, say, 2.3 miles away. Much of the time when I'm flying, I know exactly where I am and I don't need any other information from the map page except for traffic.

And it would be nice to be able to have a page in ForeFlight where I could see only the traffic and easily see how far the traffic is from me based on its position among the concentric rings. Now, to their credit, I believe the Garmin Pilot app, which I haven't used in some time, has exactly that kind of traffic page. So I'm hoping that ForeFlight will do something similar in the future. Now, I've looked at the ground tracks on ADS-B Exchange for the midair collision that occurred on Wednesday morning in Arizona, and here's what I saw.

Both aircraft had been in the pattern and were on final for runway 12. Winds at the time were from the southeast at 10 knots, so the ground speeds I give are going to be about 10 knots slower when the aircraft are on final and about 10 knots faster than true airspeed when they're on downwind. By the way, there is no audio of this crash as LiveATC.net doesn't have a receiver at that airport.

Five minutes before the crash, both aircraft took off from runway 12 with the 172 ahead of the Lancer. When the 172 was on crosswind, it was flying at 99 knots. The Lancer, behind it still on the departure leg, was at 144 knots. As the Lancer completed its turn to downwind, it was at 160 knots and about 1.5 miles behind the 172, which was doing 111 knots.

By the time the Lancer was at midfield, it had slowed to 120 knots. It was about 1.1 miles behind the 172, which was doing 113 knots.

When the 172 started its base turn, the aircraft were about 0.8 nautical miles apart. Now to its credit, the Lancer started its base about a half mile beyond where the 172 turned to base. As the Lancer rolled out on final, the 172 was 0.6 nautical miles from the runway, and the Lancer was about 1.4 miles behind it. Their ground speeds were 53 knots and 92 knots respectively.

As the 172 crossed the threshold, it was about 20 feet above the field elevation, doing 57 knots, and the Lancer, which was three-quarters of a mile behind it, was doing 77 knots.

As the LandSayer crossed the threshold, it was at 81 knots, but the 172, which was just 0.3 nautical miles or about 600 yards ahead of it, was on the ground and had slowed to a ground speed of 2 knots. So perhaps it did a stop and go, or maybe it got very slow during a touch and go. Ten seconds later, the LandSayer was about 70 feet above the runway at 88 knots, and it

and was a little over a tenth of a mile behind the Cessna, which was 50 feet below it, climbing at 53 knots. The collision occurred about 10 seconds later, over the runway. Notably, the Cessna appears to be just right of the centerline, and the Lancer is just slightly left of the centerline. The Lancer dropped immediately, killing the two on board. The Cessna had reportedly had wingtip damage, flew a traffic pattern and landed safely.

Now, at my home airport, when they issue a go-around instruction to an aircraft, they almost always say, go around and offset to the right. And the reason they tell pilots to offset to the right is twofold. First, it gives the pilot in the left seat a much better view of the preceding aircraft. And it prevents that preceding aircraft from climbing up into the aircraft that was told to go around.

Now, the airport in Arizona is non-towered, so no one gave the landster that kind of instruction. But offsetting from the center line, preferably to the right, is an industry best practice that you should follow whenever you go around. Because it can help prevent the kind of mid-air collision that happened today in Arizona. And of course, having an in-cockpit traffic system can also help. Coming up next, our conversation with Rachel Webster about her stolen Satabria that ended up on a beach. All right here on the Aviation Is Talk podcast.

And now let me tell you a little about Rachel Webster. Rachel is a two-time AOPA distinguished CFI, as well as an honored instructor at UC Berkeley and the founder of the Next Level Tailwheel Flight School. She loves teaching people to fly in her Kitfox and Satabrias and has a long running live online private pilot ground school with several local clubs. And now here's our conversation with Rachel Webster.

Rachel, welcome to the show. So good to have you here today. Thank you for having me. Well, you've got an interesting story that you and I have talked about a little bit over the last year, but you're in the unique position of having an airplane stolen out from under you. Tell us about that. What? You mean not everybody has? I mean, come on, Max. Come on.

Not everybody does. Tell us about the day your airplane was stolen. How did that all start out for you? So it started off just like a regular day and then, you know, Grand Theft Auto happened. And so that was a thing. So what ended up happening was,

I was getting ready to become a tailwheel instructor. And so I was flying with a lot of my tailwheel instructor friends who are phenomenal. And there are many, many around the Palo Alto airport. And so I flew with my friend in the morning. And so we were, we went out to the plane and I got

got to the plane and I said, wow, somebody is really nice to me today because the plane was untied and I have all these covers on it because it's a beautiful plane. The man that I bought it from took immaculate care of it. And so I wanted to make sure that it was really pretty and everything. So I have a bunch of covers on it. And so all the covers though were nicely painted.

fold it up and it was great. And I said, okay, that sounds, thank you for whoever did that. So I did the walk around. I did the pre-flight. Everything looked great. Then I said, cool, let's go. So then my friend and I, we flew it and we came back and it was lovely. Then we tied it all down, put the covers back on and walked away. And

Later on, I was having coffee with my other CFI friend who needed a friend and we were just chit-chatting at my house. And then I got a call from the COO of where the plane was being rented through. And he said, so I want to let you know that your plane, 446 Alpha Charlie, has been stolen. It

launched in the direction of San Carlos and it's at low altitude. The transponder's not on and that's all we know. And I said, and then I just started laughing hysterically because what the hell?

heck? Like, who? Like, what happens? Like, who does this happen to? This is so bizarre. So I found the whole thing funny, just because I'm like, how do you even process this? Like, yeah, he's like, I don't even know. And I'll like, I can't even, I was like, okay, that's happening. And so my friend who was here, we just started laughing. And I was like, well, this is this is happening.

okay, well, we'll see where the plane ends up. And I literally thought it was going to end up in Mexico because it's like, maybe it's going to get stolen and it's going to get in Mexico. And then the serial numbers are gonna get filed off or it's going to get chopped. I don't even know. I was like, I don't know what's happening. Then I get a call back and he said that the plane has been found. It is on a beach south of Half Moon Bay.

We don't know the status of it. It's there. And that's all we know. And the police are on the scene. I'm like, great. So that was happening. And so I just kind of sat there. I'm like, well, do I need to go out there? Do I need to do anything? He's like, no, no.

don't do anything. You can just sit there and the police are going to call you. And I said, okay. And then I ended up getting a call from him later saying that it looks like it's undamaged, but it was found in a nose position, nose over position. But other than that, it looks okay. And after he said that to me, that was when it hit me. I'm like, thank goodness. It landed on a beach. I

Nobody was hurt like the person. And oh, and then he told me that they have a person in custody. And so it sounded like that cycle was going to get closed up. And so that was good. And then that was when I was really like, oh, my God, thank you. Thank you for stealing my plane and landing it in some random beach and

and not hurting anybody, not doing anything else. Cause I'm just thinking like this could have been so much worse. And so I was really scared more about that, about just having him hurt someone. You know, I just didn't want to be a part of any of that. Cause like, I don't need this in my life. I have enough drama. Like I don't need that. So I was really relieved that I'm like, whatever sounds great. So that happened. I ended up getting a call from the police.

later on that night. And they said that it was a detective and he was filling out the grand theft auto report. I'm like, cool, that's what we do. And then the best thing, he clearly said, you know, this is not anything I've done before. I was like, yeah, this doesn't happen to me every day either. And then he said, so I'm filling out this form. I'm not quite sure how to do this, but how many miles are on your vehicle? I said, well,

doesn't quite work that way with airplanes, but I can give you tack time hours if that would help. And he's like, okay, I will just put that down in the box. I said, okay, you do that.

So he did that. It was just so weird. It's like, oh, my God, this is so weird right now. So weird. So this was the first time a plane had been sound like it was stolen in the county. And so the police people had no idea what to do. And that happened. So tail wheels, you know, you get definitely get into some hairy situations with tail wheels over the years. And so there is an instructor there.

at Palo Alto who has been involved in many different emergency off airport landings in tailwheels. And so my first instinct was to call him and said, and asked him if he wanted to come with me to see the plane. And of course he said yes, because that's what he does. And so he came over the next day and, uh,

pick me up. And I hadn't really processed much. I just thought the whole thing was bizarre. And so I just pretty much spent the evening just not even answering calls from different LA times from places like AP press and stuff. I'm going, Oh my God, this is crazy and weird. And I just didn't want to talk to anybody. I didn't know what I was, it was happening. And so I was like, Oh my God. So all I did was talk to my friend and we just chatted about

random nonsense. And it was lovely. And so that was really, really nice. So the next day, my friend came and picked me up. And we were trying to figure out where to go at the beach. And so he was scrolling on his phone, looking at things. And it kind of just hit me the weight of everything of just what happened and how I was relieved that no one got hurt. I was just

It was just a lot to process. And so, cause I didn't have anybody else to process with just my two kids that I live with hashtag single mom life. It's great. And so I was having this moment and I just lost it. And just, I was like, I'm just going to cry right now. Okay. And he said, okay. And so he just let me cry. And I just kind of hugged him while he scrolled on his phone. And then he said, okay, are you done now? And I said, yes, I am. Okay, let's go.

So it was perfect. It was the weirdest thing, but exactly what I needed. It was lovely. And then we went out to the beach and we figured out where to go, where the closest parking lot was. And we walked down to the beach and we walked over. And as soon as we started to see the plane come into focus, I grabbed his hand. I said, I need you to hold my hand right now.

because this is how we're going to do it. So I was like, I'll hold my hand, please. So he held my hand. We walked up to the plane and it was just like the saddest thing I've ever seen. Like, this was such a beautiful plane. It was so pretty. And here it is on the beach in the nose. So the nose was in the surf and then the waves were coming up and just hissing

the plane over and over again. And so it was nosed over, as you can see in all of the pictures that were taken by the newspaper. And it was just washing again and again. I'm just going, oh my God, this is the worst ever.

Oh, it was just so sad because it was such a pretty plane. It was so pretty. And then we saw the Coast Guard there and the two Coast Guard ladies were very nice. And they said when they got here, so I was told that the police were going to be there overnight. So I didn't do anything or worry about it or anything. But apparently nobody was there overnight.

And so a lot of people, looky-loos, came to take pictures on it, climb on it, and do other things to the plane. So one of the struts was bent because people were climbing on it, taking pictures and, you know, selfies and all that kind of stuff. So I'm going, really? Wow. But

But then the Coast Guard people came out and they shooed everybody away, which was, thank goodness, that was very nice of them. And then they were saying how they were very surprised to find the plane here in the morning because they really thought it was going to get washed out to sea. So I'm going...

Oh, okay. That's wonderful. Great. So it went through two high tide cycles and it did not get washed out to sea, but it did get a lot of salt water obviously in the plane. And so there was a lot of damage to all the metal and the corrosion and everything in the front part of the plane.

So talk a little bit about the recovery process. Obviously, you don't just take an airplane off the beach and put it on a truck. It's got to be more difficult than that. Yes. Tell us what that process was like.

Well, so if we were to have done it in a maybe non-legit, but in the best case scenario for the airplane, you would call the manager of the nearest airport. And in this case, Half Moon Bay, they would call somebody because obviously that doesn't happen all the time, but they have people on recovery and they know how to do this. And so if we were to do that, somebody could have magically appeared with a bobcat and pulled

pulled it away from the surf and we could have at least saved it there. But that did not happen. What did happen was we went through all of the legal process to get the plane off the beach and to get it off the beach, we had to talk to at least almost like 10 different federal, state, county offices and people to get okays to get the plane away and take it off the beach and all this stuff. And so it just took,

like almost 24 hours to get the okay to get this plane away. And in the meantime, it had accumulated way more damage. I don't know if it if we got there right away, if we could have flown the plane off the beach, but it we might have been able to because there actually wasn't

really any damage to the plane. What we think happened was there's beautiful footage of him landing. So he did do a very nice wheel landing. So good job. And we think what happened was when he was taxiing, he went into some soft sand and then nosed over at a lower RPM. And so we're

The prop seemed fine. The plane seemed fine. Like nothing seemed damaged, which was really surprising. The only damage that I saw on the plane that happened was he punched a hole in the side of the airplane for good measure as apparently he walked away from the plane. So that was what we found. So the recovery process was after we got all the okays from all the different agencies, we had the guy in the Bobcat come back.

and drive down the beach. And first of all, the

club that I had, the maintenance people came out and we were trying to get the tail down because we're trying to do it. And he's like, well, why don't I lift you up and see if you can get it down? I said, okay. So then here I am like hanging from the back, the tail of the plane is like wiggling my legs in the air. And I'm like, this is not working. So then I let go and drop down. So we tried that. That

We got the bobcat out there and they lifted it up and they attached it to the tail. But we needed to dig out the propeller and the cowling and everything. So I was down there and with my little hands and I didn't bring my sand tools for my kids, but I needed to. So we dug out the front part of the plane and then the bobcat brought the tail down, nose up, and then they pulled it down the beach with the bobcat. They drug it down to the nearest place.

beach access driveway. And then they brought it up to the parking lot. They had two trucks that they had ready to go. And so this was amazing. Like the, the maintenance people came in. I mean, they got that thing done quick. It was, it was phenomenal. They got in there, they took the wings off. They put the wings on one of the trucks. They put the fuselage on the other truck and

Off it went back to Palo Alto and that was that. And so by the, how quickly it got off the beach, I'm going, oh my gosh, you guys are amazing. Thank you so much. So I got a lot of like,

And cookies and muffins and donuts and a lot of treats for maintenance happened for a long time after that because I was just so grateful that they did all that for me. And it was amazing. And then the plane ended up back at Palo Alto. And then it had a lot of sand in it. And yeah, so then it came back.

Well, I know a lot has gone on in the past year, and I want to get to that in a moment. But tell us a little bit about what you heard about what actually happened, how this man got access to your airplane, what he did as he left the airport, and so on. Right. So what happened was not targeted at me, at the airplane specifically, nothing like that. And so...

There was a man who apparently had been acting a little sketch around the airport for a while. And he had been sort of putting people's radars off. There was a little coffee shop that was kind of saying, there's this guy that's kind of creepy outside. And so they knew something was going on. He went into one of the aviation clubs at the airport and started shaving, apparently, in the lobby. And people thought, this is kind of weird. But nobody really...

said anything about this. So he definitely did some interesting things, but nobody really reported that. Then later on, what happened was he did cut a hole in the fence. He calls himself Sunrock. And as someone who calls himself Sunrock does, he represents himself in court.

And he wanted to apparently prove the lack of security at small airports. So this might not have been the first airport or the first airplane he had stolen. But yeah, so that's what happened. So he cut a hole in the fence, I guess. And then he made his way onto the airport. We think he might have gone into some other airplanes, but we're not quite sure exactly what happened with the other airplanes. But I do know this. Mine was not the first airplane that he tried to steal.

The airplane that he tried to steal first was an exact copy of my plane that was next to me. But what happened was the owner, which I talked to later, the owner was saving money and he bought some crap battery that was used. And so he put this used battery in the plane. And guess what? It wouldn't start when the guy tried to start it. So I was like, you, oh my God, like you bought some crap.

Oh, so because he was saving money, I bought this crap battery that didn't start. He did not get his plane stolen that day. So because his plane didn't start, the guy came over to my plane and apparently tried to start and stole my plane because my plane has had a good battery. So yeah, because I take care of my planes. The plane was locked, but the lock on Satabria's

And it's not. Yeah. So we're not quite sure how that how we got into it, what happened, what he did. But he didn't damage the outside of the plane when he was trying to get in. But it was locked. And then you don't need a key to start the plane to begin with. It's a push button starter. So that's just how they're made. So that's what happened. And then they caught him. So after he landed and punched a hole for good measure in my airplane, because I really don't think he meant to damage the plane. I really don't think he did.

except for punching a hole because he's dumb. But anyway, so he went off the beach. He went and got some tacos, I guess, and they caught him at the taco stand. And then they arrested him and he went to trial the first time and he represented himself. And clearly that I don't think that really went well, but then he went to jail. And then when they had the trial date set, uh,

he wouldn't come out of his jail cell for the trial. So then he went to a mental facility to get rehabilitated to stand trial. And so that took some number of months. And then finally, he stood trial back in December and he was found guilty and he was sentenced to time served. So he was released to steal another airplane or something. Hopefully not. Maybe he has been rehabilitated. I hope that. And then he

is supposed to pay me restitution. I think of $68,000. So I'm clearly not holding my breath for that, but that's what's happening. Wow. So if he was trying to prove the airports of bad security, do you think it might've been just easier if he wrote a strongly worded Yelp review or something like that? I think so because clearly like, cause I think also too, you never knew like, cause I think it was, he was trying to make a statement of something of some, uh,

Because if he really was trying to make a statement about that, like stealing the plane, and then he could have landed at the Half Moon Bay Airport. He wanted to make some sort of... He wanted to draw attention to himself and do something spectacular. And that's... I mean, clearly, I mean, it's pretty awesome to land on a beach. So, I mean...

I get it. If I was going to steal a plane, that would be pretty rad. But he didn't run out of gas. He didn't have an emergency. It was basically he just, I think, wanted to make a statement. And so I think that's how you get more eyes. Because if he just landed at Half Moon Bay...

I don't think people would have made such a big deal out of it, but it made a sensation. I was on the radio in New York or something. It was crazy. It was bananas. The whole thing was so bananas. Because what I think it did and why it went so well as a story is because no one got hurt.

The plane looked fine. And I think it was a way for people to see something and be able to kind of laugh about it. And because it's just so crazy, like, how does this happen? This is bananas. And because nothing bad happened, it was an easy thing to just be able to laugh about and just say, oh, my gosh, did you see that?

that. And so I'm really, really glad that that was the story that came out that people were able to tell because it made it so that yes, it just made people's day and smile and just go, that's a weird thing to do. And now I am known as the, you know, lady who got the plane

plane stolen out of the airport. And so I'm famous. So on the bright side, do you think maybe you could market this as the only tailwheel training aircraft that has real beach landing experience? Yes. And I'm thinking about it. So now once it's done and it gets repaired, it can come back. And if you come rent it, I'll have a little commemorative vial of beach sand that you can take with you. Yeah.

To prove that, yes, I have flown this plane that has landed on a beach. That's good. Well, so I know it's been a year since the event occurred and things have moved a little bit slowly in terms of getting the aircraft repaired. Tell us about that because I'm sure a lot of people must think, oh, the insurance companies rush to pay you, repairs happen quickly. That's not really the case, is it?

In my case, no. And I think this is probably something that's happening all over the country and especially in the Bay Area is that maintenance is just overwhelmed. And I think we just don't have enough skilled people that are being trained in this area.

anymore. And I think that's, you know, clearly it's a thing that's happened. And as somebody who teaches college, I'm a medical microbiology professor. And so I teach in academia and I get that and I love people going to college, but I think we've really vilified the trades. And I think that's a really sad, bad thing for us and our community and just everywhere. And so now I think we're paying for it where we don't have skilled technicians to take care of all of the amazing things

aircraft, cars, appliances, everything. And so especially just for this piece of the story, yeah, we just don't have mechanics around. And so I know that the club has the maintenance facility and the guys do the best they can with what they got. And I know that they really tried hard to make it work for me. And they just are overwhelmed. There's just too many airplanes, too much stuff to do. And so

The plane came back and they kept telling me that they were going to do stuff to it. And it was going okay. And they were going to submit the insurance claim of what needed to be done. And I said, okay. And I was just super grateful that they wanted to do it and everything. And since I can't do it myself, it felt weird to complain about anything. And so I took it on good faith and I really hoped and just

just basically had faith that it was going to all work out. And so, um,

I was very patient and I waited for a long time and I didn't really push very much. And it kind of started dragging on and on. And then finally, I got told that they took the plane apart and they submitted a list to the insurance company. And a lot of people thought, oh, well, because it didn't look like damage, you know, when it hit the beach or the picture and stuff, it looked OK. They're like, oh, it'd be fine.

Well, the problem was is that it went through the two high tide cycles. And so that saltwater just damaged so much of all the metal, the wheels, everything and people standing on the struts and all of it. And so.

It ended up having quite a bit of damage done to it. And so the list that they finally submitted to the insurance company, probably about six months, eight months, I'd say six months after the plane was damaged, they came back and it was really close to being totaled.

So it very easily could have been totaled just with the corrosion damage that happened. And luckily, or maybe unluckily, it wasn't totaled. And so...

They decided to pay out. And so the plane was beautiful and it was an amazing plane. So I had it insured for about $145,000. And they ended up paying a claim of, I think it was, I think about $92,000 total was what they paid out. So that was very, very close to being totaled. So I think it

I think if it was in the hands of a different insurer or a different claim person, they would have totaled it instead. So I think that's something that if you do have a plane that's damaged, really consider is it worth it to have the plane totaled and then just take the money and run and get another plane? Or do you want the insurance money and then having to go through the pain and suffering of getting the

plane repaired. And so it's, it's an interesting choice. And I've, I've counseled some of my friends that have had planes that are damaged and I'm like, you know, I just have the plane total. It's so much better. And you can end up moving faster. You can move on. It's just better for yourself and your psyche and everything. And so for me though, the universe wanted me to keep the plane. And so it was not total and I'm here. And finally, after about eight months, I was

I said, hey, can we do something with this plane? Is it going to do something? Because nothing had really happened. And to the plane repair wise. And again, it was all good intentions. They just didn't have the time. They didn't have the manpower and just didn't. It just wasn't managed well. So.

I finally told the club, I said, look, I want something different. I want the plane. I want the money. I want to be able to manage the repairs myself. And so they ended up giving a full release or getting me a full release from the insurance company so that now they cut me a check for whatever the claim was for the cost and labor and the estimate for the repair. And then I had...

some friends at the airport who said, hey, look, call this guy, have him come over and check it out. And so I called the mechanic and he came out and looked at it. He said, oh, yeah, we could get this done in no time. No problem. I said, really? He said, yes. I said, oh, my God, you're my new best friend.

So he came, looked at it, told me what he needed, what he wanted. I said, no problem. Let's go. I had another friend at the airport who was involved in transporting the plane from the beach who had a truck. And so he said that he'd do me a solid and help me get the plane over to the airport where the mechanic was. And I said, oh my God, thank you. And so we did that just this past two weeks ago.

And so it was almost, it was basically a year to the day that the plane went to this other airport. And then on that day, the mechanic sent me pictures of the engine being hung, the parts being put in, the replacement. I'm going, oh my

God, she looks like a real airplane again. This is amazing. So it was really cool to see that. And so he's working really fast on it and we're ordering parts and getting it together. And so he's thinking he can probably finish it up in about a month or two and then it'll be back. And then I just have the cosmetic, um,

work of how much of the paint and fabric damage that I need to do. But then I'll have the airworthy aircraft again. Hooray! How exciting. So I'm curious, having gone through this entire process, what advice do you have for other aircraft owners, either in terms of theft prevention or in terms of managing the repair process of an aircraft that's been damaged?

obviously when you have the airplane, you sort of take it under good faith that people aren't going to steal it. And it's, it definitely doesn't happen. And I think that for me, I went,

initially right after the plane got stolen, everybody's like, Oh my God, are you going to get a club on it? Are you going to put in a kill switch? Are you going to do all these things? And yes, you can do that. But at what point do you just start making it so inconvenient that it makes no sense? And so for me, I went through that. I'm like, well, I'm going to put a bike lock on it. And so then that way, I don't know, it'll keep the tail down. I don't know, whatever. So,

We could do that. But I decided this is a lot of effort. And especially since I have rental aircraft that I train people in, it would just be a lot of extra just steps and maybe other damage to the plane that happens. And so to me, it just didn't seem worth it. And I said, for the risk versus reward, I'm like,

there's really not much you can do. If somebody named Sunrock wants to steal my plane, they're going to steal my plane. I mean, that's just pretty much how it's going to go. But then for the managing the repair process, you just kind of have to stay on top of it, get with somebody you trust and, you know, just keep checking in. But then the problem is if you do check in too much,

much, if you get a little pushy, if you get a little that and this and the other, then they might start not working on your plane because they hate you. So it's, it's tough, because you're not just managing a thing. It's not the what it's the how. And so it's being careful about how you respect and value the people that are doing work for you and with you. And so I really wanted to be a part of that. So for me, it's just

being aware and just making sure that you value the people that are trying to help you. And even if they're maybe not necessarily doing the things that you want them to be doing,

just hoping and knowing that if it's not a good situation, it's up to you to get it into a better situation. You can't force anybody to do anything. So that's why for me, I took it out of the place that it was at and moved it someplace else. So I know you specialize in teaching in tailwheel aircraft at the Palo Alto airport, and you have apparently decided to take things to the next level and start a flight school. Tell us all about that.

Yes. So I have crazy adventures in airplane land and all of my friends who have real jobs live vicariously through me. And so I've had interesting summer adventures where I had got my seaplane rating in Alaska. And then this past summer, I did backcountry flying in Idaho with Stick and Rudder Aviation, who have backcountry tours everywhere.

who lead backcountry tours in Kitfox aircraft. And they are tailwheel planes that are STOL-inspired aircraft, and they're amazing. And so it just blew my mind. It was incredible. And so the man who runs Stick and Rudder wants to kind of move on and do other things with his life. And so he's really scaling back his operation, and he's looking for someone to partner with him to help the Kitfox community, to help the experimental aircraft community,

the Rotax community. And so he asked me if I wanted to partner with him and start a flight school, he would sell me one of his aircraft. So I ended up buying, well, at first I said, no, I was like, this sounds like a lot of work. So no, thank you. Thank you. But no. But then as we kept talking about it, it made sense. I had the right resources. I had the right people. I had the right interest and it just made sense. So I said, okay, fine. So we're partnering together. And so I started a

Kitfox specific flight school in Palo Alto called Next Level Tailwheel. And I am using the Satabrias as well because I also own Satabrias and that's the kind of the traditional model that we've done a lot of tailwheel training at Palo Alto. And so bringing that into the Next Level Tailwheel fold as well.

And so having that with people that I really trust because we have a ton of instruction and experience in the tailwheel community at Palo Alto. And so for me, I wanted to really be able to use that and take this community and share it with the world and the Kit Fox community and also tailwheel. And so making it fun and interesting. And there's just no other real tailwheel specific thing happening in Palo Alto.

And that's what I wanted to do because I'm crazy. Indeed. And I say indeed, because I think anyone who starts a flight school, oh my gosh, that is just so much work. And you have my admiration. I would not be willing to do that, but, but kudos to you. I don't advise it. I highly don't. It's like, it's like a friend. You want to have a friend who has a swimming pool and an airplane. It's the same thing. Have a friend who has a flight school. That's perfect. That

That's great. So for people who are interested in taking training in Kit Foxes or Satabrias, how do they find you and your new flight school on the web? We are at nextleveltailwheel.com. And if you are a frequent listener of Max's podcast, then Jim Hopp, who did the tailwheel podcast,

specific episode, he is my right hand man in all of this. He is, as I tell him, he is my enabler. And so we have a good time training people. And he was my tailwheel instructor. And so we get up to no good all the time and have a lot of fun teaching people how to have fun, how to be safe, and just have an exciting time with tailwheel.

And so that's why I wanted to come talk to you because you love tailwheel people. And so I wanted to really give you this inside scoop of what happened. I think it's fantastic that you've taken the story of lemons, which was the theft of your aircraft. You're trying to get a lemonade. You've started a flight school. Rachel, congratulations to you. And thanks so much for joining us here today and sharing your story. Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it. Have a great one. Hello.

And my thanks to Dr. Rachel Webster for joining us here today to share her story. You can find out more about her flight school and about mega supporter CFI Jim Hoppuk is on their team at nextleveltailwheel.com.

And just a reminder that I love hearing from you and I read many of your emails on the show. If you'd like to send me a message, just go out to aviationnewstalk.com, click on contact at the top of the page. That's absolutely the best way to send me a message. And of course, I also want to thank everyone who supports the show in one of the following ways. We love it when you join the club and sign up at aviationnewstalk.com support.

To support the show financially, you can also do that at aviationnewstalk.com slash PayPal. We also love it when you leave a five-star review on whatever app that you're listening to us on now. And of course, if you're in the market for a headset, please consider buying a Lightspeed headset and using one of the links in our show notes, because if you use those links, they will donate to help support the show. So until next time, fly safely, have fun, and keep the blue side up. And remember that you can always go around. Go around.

coming down don't wake your silence baby sliding upside down you can always