Deep Dive
Shownotes Transcript
Hello and welcome back to the final episode in our Falklands podcast. I'm Patrick Bishop and today Saul, David and I will look back at the immediate aftermath of the war following the surrender of the Argentine garrison in Port Stanley on the 14th of June. Inevitably, I suppose, the end proved to be a bit of an anticlimax.
Yes, exactly so, because after all the intensity of the fighting of the previous 24 days of the land campaign, the victors now had to get down to what was in effect a pretty boring administrative task of arranging for the shipping of the defeated Argentinians back home. More than 11,000 prisoners were herded on two ships for repatriating.
Troops were then set to work clearing up minefields, which the defenders had scattered all over the place and restoring water and electricity to Port Stanley. Now, Patrick, you were there. What was the atmosphere like immediately in the days after the surrender? Well, there was a kind of flatness about the whole thing. You can imagine throughout the campaign, we've been fantasising about how we were going to celebrate when we liberated Port Stanley. But in the end, it came down to...
sitting in the saloon bar of the Upland Goose and having a few beers. There was a kind of strange show, huge relief, of course, but with relief, you know, as the adrenaline ebbs, a kind of slight sense of melancholy creeps in. There were some surreal moments because most of the guys, we had the kind of capacity once in a while to get on the satellite plane
communications and so actually maybe talk to someone back in the office or something like that. But most of the military guys didn't have that luxury. So there was a kind of huge queue of people lining up to make use of the satellite telephones, which were on board some of the ships, which were now docked in Port Stanley Harbor. I remember queuing up myself. We had to make use of them to talk to our bosses back home and send our copy, etc.,
And I remember queuing up and in front of me in the queue was none other than Prince Andy, helicopter pilot, already, you know, a bit of a hero, done a great job there as they all had. And there he was in front of the queue. And then he got to the phone and he was put through and we all heard him saying, hello, mum, which was a moment to savour. Just, I mean, you know, his reputation has taken a terrible battering lately, but I think it's worth remembering that he did
do his duty admirably there in the Falklands. Of course, once it's over, all you want to do is get home. Everyone just wanted to get the hell out of there, much as we love the Falklanders, etc. There was a huge feeling that, OK, the job's done. Let's go. The journalists were fortunate enough to be able to get out in the first couple of Hercules, one of the C-130s that came in from Ascension.
So we drew lots as to who was to get out in the first one. And I was fortunate enough to get a seat. Well, not a seat, actually, because they were very cramped inside the Hercules. So we had this very long, cold journey back to RAF Brighton. When we arrived there in the early hours of the morning, I think even though we knew it was a big deal, we were taken aback at the welcome we got. There were loads of family and friends.
You know, a couple of notables there to welcome us. And it was only then I think they dawned on us what a massive national occasion the whole thing had been.
Yeah, and I think your experience, Patrick, is fairly typical for a lot of the soldiers too, although, of course, they came home in a much more leisurely fashion. Even those who went out on the Canberra and the Norland, I think, found the same thing. It took them, as I say, a month to get home. But many would later say that the time spent on the cruise was actually godsend because, again,
unusually after a war, it allowed them to decompress, talk about their experiences and share their grieving over lost comrades. Now, when the Canberra finally arrived home, back where it started on the 11th of July, Julian Thompson remembers the occasion. Well, we came home in Canberra and it was the most extraordinary thing. We didn't realise we were going to have this wonderful welcome. It came as a shock, a big shock. I mean, it was a shock.
to be met by so many boats coming out and a huge crowd on the quayside greeting us. And really, I was actually speechless. I didn't know what to say. I was being interviewed. I can't remember who it was now. I think it was someone who used to be on Today.com.
until quite recently. He was then a television journalist. He interviewed me. And, you know, I sort of couldn't, John Humphries, I couldn't think what to say. I said, I think I'm in emotional shock. Couldn't think of anything else to say. It was an amazing welcome. And I was so glad for the boys because they deserved every bit of it. You know, I was so glad they were being given a proper welcome home.
And in a way, you know, I felt, my God, we're so lucky. You know, Vietnam had ended only 10 years or less before. And American troops had been spat on by their own chaps, their own citizens in America. And I thought, my God, we're so lucky that this is not an unpopular war and that our families and friends are not under pressure from the inhabitants for doing something that is not liked.
And it was a terrific day. That was Julian Thompson with his memories there. I went down to welcome them home. It was an astounding scene with bands playing. The whole quayside was a sea of Union Jacks. It was like something out of the Victorian era. And the Canberra looked amazing. It was streaked with rust, which gave it a very rugged and heroic appearance. And indeed, the ship and its ship's company had put up a fabulous show.
They'd gone from ferrying retirees around the Med down to the freezing South Atlantic with the prospect of an exocet slamming into them ever present without a word of complaint.
So, yeah, it was a great way to come home. Yeah. And I think it's worth dwelling a little bit on the on the point I've just mentioned, which is the decompression aspect. I think we both know, Patrick, you know, from personal experience, I know from talking to many, many veterans that after battle, when the adrenaline subsides,
depression, a kind of deep sense of depression and regret can flood in. And the transition from the military to the civilian environment as a result of this can be very disconcerting.
You're dealing with people, civilians, that is, who've basically got no idea what you've been through and what you're talking about. Yeah. So this gave the lads time to work through what they'd experienced with the only people who could really understand them. It was tremendously valuable. I think a lesson was learned there. And later on, you know, post tours in Afghanistan, certainly, you
There was a policy of staging back via Cyprus so the troops could sort of have a decompression session there. It was only a couple of days. I don't think it had anything like the same healing and calming effect.
Yeah, it's also very interesting, I think, what Julian Thompson says about his personal relief at the warmth of the reception. He didn't really understand, nor did many of the servicemen down south, the extent to which the nation had got behind the war.
He referred to Vietnam, of course, and memories of how Vietnam could wreck the reputation of the military were still fresh in his mind. And he also talked a little bit about Northern Ireland. It wasn't the most popular conflict and therefore soldiers weren't held particularly high in the civilian population's estimation. But this all changed with the Falklands War.
Yeah, I think we can definitely say this was a hinge moment when the military's place in the heart of the nation's affections was restored. And of course, they've maintained it to this day. If you look at polls about who do people most admire, the military comes out at the top, very near the top, right to this very day.
Well, that was one big consequence of the war, but there were others. And after the break, we'll be discussing how the conflict affected the political and social landscape of Britain.
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Well, welcome back. And looking at the footage of the Canberra's return to Southampton, I noticed one banner hanging from the ship which read, Maggie rules OK? And as even the leader of the opposition, Michael Foote, agreed, Maggie had indeed played a blinder. Simon Jenkins, who was watching events from his privileged position as political editor of The Economist, tells us what he remembers of the transformation in her fortunes.
Everybody thought, everybody in our profession thought that Margaret Thatcher would be gone by Christmas 1981. I had a lot of bets out on Christmas 1981. At the Tory party conference, I was going around laying them. I don't know why it's so arrogant, but I thought she'd stay to Christmas. Most political editors thought she'd be gone by Christmas. She was that unpopular, including in her own party.
She survived through to the east of the following year. She was getting a teeny bit better in the polls, but then this catastrophe happens. She was in a very, very bad way. She wasn't Thatcherite then. I mean, she was she was still really a very conventional Tory leader fighting for her position. Everything being obsessed about money. I mean, money, money, money. The Falklands was about money initially.
When she won, she was totally transformed. She was famous around the world. Her relationship with Reagan was quite different after the Falklands War. And I think she was able to do things she would not have felt able to do because of it.
For the following year after the Falklands War, she was on cloud nine, rather unpleasantly so, I think. But it did change things. And you have to think yourself back to the 1970s when Britain was the basket case of Europe. It just wasn't in the 1980s. And the credit for that really must go to Thatcher and the nature of her leadership.
She was never courting popularity. She never worried about headlines. She simply got on with what she was intended to do, ruthlessly. And I do think she changed Britain. I really do. Well, that was Simon Jenkins there. Yes, I think there was a definite kind of step change there.
in the way Britain approached life thereafter and the way that it was seen. You've got to remember that when we went into the war, Britain was still kind of psychologically in the era of strikes, of internal dissent, of basically acceptance of decline. And this completely unexpected event changed all that. And I think...
everyone would agree that henceforward there was a bit of a spring in the nation's step that certainly hadn't been there before.
Yeah, you can see that Simon Jenkins thinks that it's a big sea change. There are things going on internationally, which certainly Britain's role in the world was enhanced after the Falklands. He talks about the new relationship with Reagan. It's interesting, isn't it? We always think, looking back, it had been and always was very strong. But actually, this is a key moment, isn't it? It makes the Americans sit up, but not just the Americans.
It also made the Kremlin take notice. I think we also realise, particularly from some of the debriefs with senior members of the Soviet establishment after the end of the Cold War, that actually they were beginning to look at Britain's role in the Falklands War
as emblematic of NATO more generally and therefore that there was a tough task for them to actually take on this Western alliance. So they were very, very, very much new, a sea change in the way Britain was seen, but not just Britain, NATO also, I think, Patrick. Yeah, I think that's absolutely right. I mean, the Russians are always looking for signs of weakness, signs of decadence, often it's wishful thinking, but they certainly had their eyes very firmly fixed on how we were going to react to all that. We've seen it in Ukraine, the way that...
they're constantly prodding and pushing and hoping to find a weak spot. And it would have delighted them had we backed down. I think on the American side, you've got to remember that, uh,
Although Tories would have you believe that the relationship has always been very strong, we can rely on America, that's not really the case at all and hadn't been since Suez. So the Americans didn't back us in Suez. They thought our whole kind of strategic mistake we made there in thinking that we could topple NASA and get away with it showed a kind of real advantage.
sign of the kind of losing of British imperial faculties, if you like. So since then, they'd always been rather, you know, a bit kind of iffy about how reliable we were. And indeed, as we saw at the very beginning of this story, they were by no means falling over themselves to help us at the outset. So this was a real kind of, you know, restoration, albeit temporary, I have to say.
of American confidence in Britain. Another thing we should talk about is the actual outcome for Argentina, Saul. Yeah, exactly right. I mean, the one side of the equation is what the Falklanders did or didn't want. But we also need to remember that
the nature of the regime that we would have handed them over to if we hadn't fought the war. Or indeed, if we'd found some kind of negotiated settlement that probably didn't please the islanders, but pleased the Argentinians. And what you've got is a pretty nasty military dictatorship. We talked about it right at the beginning of the podcast.
And what you get in the end as a result of the war is the end of that military dictatorship and the introduction of some form of working democracy, which continues to this day. Absolutely. And I think the fundamental underlying lesson of all this is.
the power of the concept of deterrence. If you've got armies and you don't use them, what is the point of having them? So I think that there was a moment there at the very beginning when the whole kind of concept of military might and Britain being prepared to use it
in its own interest was in the balance. And the decisions that were made very firmly tilted us, in my view, in the right direction and showed that there is a point to having a military. There is a point to fighting when you have to fight despite all the ghastly consequences that flow from it. And that the right thing was done and the right consequences flowed from it.
Yeah, of course, the war doesn't solve the Falklands problem in the sense that there is still a question mark about its long term future. And yet the war now occupies a prominent place in our national memory. And that in itself has made it a no go area for political initiatives to do something about this.
As long as people remember the Falklands and as long as the Falkland Islands want to remain British, there seems to be, I think, no prospect of us ever handing them over. Yeah, I think that's obviously a cause of some regret to some people. Simon Schenken's among them. But I think he's in a minority. Him and the people who think like him are very much still in a minority group.
And for most people, the war remains kind of uncontroversial simply because
It was so obviously the right thing to do unless you're, you know, a big strategic thinker. We're going to hear now a few last thoughts from some of those involved, starting with Falklander Leona Roberts, who was a young girl on the islands during the invasion, occupation and war. Then Mike Scott, who is CEO of the Scots Guards Group.
And finally, Mark Hankin, a very young Marine with 4-2 commando. I mean, I know this is a question you're bound to say yes to, but well worth the task force being sent and that blood being spilt, do you think, to make the point that you can't just invade a country that doesn't want to be ruled by you? Yeah, I mean, that's actually really quite a difficult question to answer in so many ways, because, you know, I think, again, as a mother, you know,
You know, I imagine losing my son in a war and I, you know, it breaks your heart to think of. But the reality is that that was that was a profound moment for the Falklands. It was an absolute watershed. And, you know, it was it was undoubtedly the right thing to do, you know, to invade a small, peaceful country. And, you know, that can never can never be right.
And the Falklands, I think, have worked really, really hard since 1982 because we feel this enormous sense of responsibility, of gratitude, you know, to the whole task force, to everybody who went through so much to restore the freedom, you know, of a
very small number of people. So I think we all feel that quite personally. And there's no way in reality that you can ever repay that debt. You can never properly say thank you. So I think the only way that we have ever found that we can do it is to absolutely make the most of the opportunity that was given us and to just build our country to the best little country it can be. And we've worked really, really hard at that.
And, you know, the Falklands have been transformed since 1982. We've come a huge way economically, socially, politically, you know, in every way. And that is something that we can try to demonstrate to our veterans when they come back, to the families of, you know, of the guys who died, you know,
And to everybody who fought in the war. And, you know, we know actually that's appreciated. I was at dinner just last night with some veterans who were back for landing day. And, you know, they say it really does help. Actually, you know, coming back is very much about laying ghosts to rest. But also the...
They feel that that value of what they did, you know, is very evident here. They can see how far the Falklands have come. And they also are left in absolutely no question of the esteem
and love that we hold for them as Falkland Islanders. And, you know, it's 40 years ago. That's unchanged from a year after, from a day after the liberation. But it's a difficult one because how do you say that the loss of people's husbands, sons, brothers is worth it? You know, that's really hard. And as I say, I think as Falkland Islanders, we feel it very personally and very, very deeply. ♪
It was certainly worth it. Although we lost people, it had to be done. If we had failed, I mean failed politically for a start, we would never have held our heads up again politically. From the
From a military point of view, it was a very good wake up, if you like. We'd been very good in Northern Ireland. We knew what we were doing in Germany, but we'd never really been tested in that sense. I mean, Northern Ireland was a special case and we were severely tested there. But nobody really knew if we were going to take on the Russians, for instance, quite what was going to happen. But there we had done a proper battle, a battle which...
people in the Second World War would have understood. I mean, my father was still alive who fought in Normandy, understood it entirely. It was a very simple, straightforward war which civilians and professional soldiers could understand. So that was important. I think what is the lasting legacy for me, and I had a reunion just this weekend before last,
with all my old cronies, was the comradeship. We depended on each other. It didn't matter whether we were a lieutenant colonel or a lance corporal. We were all in it together. And we had a sort of ethos, if you like. I'd been in that battalion, man and boy, and there were people I knew from way back and people who'd come in during my time who I got to know.
So we were a family and there's an old adage that you
fight better with your friends. And that was certainly so. Nobody was going to let anybody else down. It just simply wasn't on the cards. And that still comes through. You know, when I see my old friends, whether they were guardsmen or whether they were captain, it doesn't matter. It's irrelevant. We were all in it together and we are still fighting
Was it all worth it? For me, definitely yes. You know, you can't have countries invading other, you know, democratic countries and just doing what they want to do. But, yeah.
I think, would I still be saying that if it was my son killed or I'd have come back with some horrendous injuries? I was lucky enough, thankfully I made it through unscathed, nothing physical or mentally. But I know many weren't as lucky and my thoughts will always be with him.
I mean, I can't think of a day since that I've not thought about what we went through or the lads that I was with. And I know many others weren't as lucky as I was. But looking back, yeah, I would say it was definitely worth it. You know, it was a privilege to know and work with the lads that I was down there with. Absolutely brilliant men.
Well, those are the words of Leona Roberts, Mike Scott and Mark Hankin. And it's quite moving stuff there, I think, particularly from Leona Roberts, who, although she is in no doubt, as you would expect, that the war needed to be fought, it was the right thing to do, as she says. She also makes the very important point that she couldn't imagine losing a son, like many mothers and families of those servicemen who were killed.
And that therefore she she to this day and so do all the other Falkland Islanders feel an enormous sense of gratitude. And she also points out that there's no way you can ever properly repay that debt. So the best thing for the Falkland Islanders was to, you know, do the best they had with their new opportunity. And as she puts it, they have managed in those 40 years since to transform the islands.
socially, economically and politically. And it's that legacy, I suppose, that would convince or you would hope would convince some of the family members of those who died that it was a war worth fighting. Yes. Well, many times in my career as a war reporter, I've struck by the
of the words of the great French songwriter and poet Jacques Prévert, Quelle connerie la guerre, he wrote, what bullshit war is. That's very often the case, I think. But in the matter of the Falklands, I never felt that. Not only was the cause just, but it proved again the point about how the greatest danger can bring out the greatest selflessness in human beings. And I think we get that from the soldiers, this sort of
tremendous fraternity that men in arms feel for each other in battle.
Yeah, and Mike Scott's words, you know, rang absolutely true. It's not just his bond with his fellow officers. It was with the guardsmen more generally to have fought within a family. It's one of the reasons why the regimental system was so important to the British Army for so many hundreds of years, because generally speaking, if you care about the people you're fighting with, you tend to fight a little bit better. I mean, we know that in defence of their land, the Ukrainians are fighting tooth and nail because their families are involved. But
Same goes within a regiment. It is a family and it's amazing the sort of bonds that are forged in battle. I think this brings to mind, of course, Dr. Johnson's famous comment that every man who hasn't been a soldier would regret that to the end of his days. And it's probably true, Patrick. I know that I myself, having written about war...
always wonder the great question, how would you perform when you were in a similar situation? And you'd be very close. Do you feel too, Patrick, that you would like to have experienced war as an actual soldier? Yeah, I absolutely did. And, you know, it's inevitable, really. First of all, I suppose to an extent, you've answered the question, what would happen if someone
a weapon in my direction, would I sort of panic and run away or would I stay calm and try and do something about staying alive? Which,
I think we all passed that test. Would I actually go forward with a gun in my hand to try and take out the person who's shooting at me? Well, we weren't actually asked to do that, but it did over and over again cross your mind. I think what we learned from it was I felt huge admiration, as I've said before, for the military. But it also made me see that they are a slightly different breed of
you do have to have that extra thing in you that is prepared to court danger, extreme danger and, and risk your life, uh, in a way that is, is doesn't really come easily to, to most of us. Um, I think another point worth making is that even if you are a soldier, it was a matter of huge chagrin, uh, if you were not in the Falklands, because, um, it's a bit, again, to go back to, uh,
To the British classics, it's Henry V, you know, gentlemen in England now bed will think themselves accursed. They were not here. And I think for a career army guy, you know, not to have made it to the Falklands, not got the Falklands gig was a matter of great regret for the rest of their careers.
Yeah, and just one thing I should add, having spoken to, you know, many of the veterans that we've interviewed for the podcast, one thing's come quite clear by talking to a number of them, and that is this...
Yes, there was this decompression period, as you say, Patrick, coming back from the Falklands, and that undoubtedly helped. But the long-term care of those who've been in combat certainly wasn't there after the Falklands. You could argue even today, after the experience of the recent campaigns in Iraq and Syria,
And Afghanistan, there's still not a proper duty of care for soldiers once that once they're back and once they're out of uniform, basically. I mean, the military, in effect, washes its hands of them. And I think the long term care of people who've been badly affected and we've heard it in the voices and in the words of people who are in the Falklands.
does need to be addressed, this psychological damage that is done to a lot of them. You need long-term care. And that, of course, is an investment. And it's easy for the government to, you know, to ignore it and say, we're simply not going to pay. Yeah, it's a very interesting subject. I think the Falklands again is interesting because it's the first time that PTSD is really recognised. There's a huge number of cases. I mean, it
I've seen guys in recent months who are still clearly very much affected by it and have these periodic lapses into a kind of really quite debilitating condition of PTSD. And that's 40 years on. I think the various statistics are bandied around, but one of them is like a third of those who were actually in the war zone suffered some sort of PTSD. It comes in all shapes and sizes, of course.
And I think it's the government rather than the military who've washed their hands of it, because it was largely left to individual units to identify, counsel, start some sort of program of care. And of course, that's all down to resources. Ultimately, people move on, things move on.
And so it was left to the kind of, you know, the family ethos of the regiment to deal with it. Some were better at it than others. I think the Paris have taken it pretty seriously and I think the Marines have taken it seriously. But, you know, ultimately, you've got to actually have a proper structure for all this. And as you say, after all this time, this isn't really in place. I just want to add one thing.
Other thing is that even though the wars of the early 20th century were not as high tempo, perhaps, as might appear the Falklands was, it was a very different sorts of stress. So going up patrolling in southern Afghanistan day in, day out, knowing that at any second you might trip a IED that's going to blow your legs off. That is a terrible, terrible thing to have to go through day in, day out. And I would argue is perhaps more stressful
psychologically eroding, if you like, than going into an old-fashioned battle like the Falklands, terrifying though that was as well. Okay, so now that's the end of the Falklands narrative, but don't worry, we'll be doing a bonus episode answering and discussing many of the fascinating points you've raised in emails and messages to us, also on Twitter, and that's going to go out next week.
Battleground the Falklands has been a terrifically enjoyable experience for us and we're so pleased that so many listeners have said how much they've enjoyed the result.
Of course, it wouldn't have been half as good were it not for the great contributions from so many participants who gave up their time to tell it like it was. And for that, we owe much to our friend and collaborator, Matt Nixon. Well done, Matt, who was a huge help in tracking down great interviewees and offering excellent advice.
And all of this has encouraged us to embark on a new series of Battleground. The next one is going to be bang up to date, examining the origins, progress and likely direction of the war currently raging in Ukraine. Week by week, we'll be bringing you the latest from the battlefield, talking to those doing the fighting and those doing the thinking. We aim to bring the same rigor and depth to examining a current conflict as we hope we have to this war of 40 years ago. Do
Do join us next week for the final roundup of Battleground, The Falklands War. And do look out for the launch of Battleground Ukraine coming very soon. Goodbye.