Roundtable_004 - Nov 2024 - Trump, Hash Collisions, Court Rulings, Covenants, All Time Highs, and What We Don't Know
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What is up, guys? Welcome back to bitcoin possible. I am guys from the guy who has read more about bitcoin than anybody else, you know.

And we have got the round table is back. They are with us today. We have got bitcoin mechanic, my brother jeff, and simple Steve, and we are getting into all of the news that happened in november.

I is a pretty long list, and we ended up diving so deep into some of the topics, so we didn't actually get to the whole list. And I had horrible technical problems because riverside and my macbook hate each other. And so he took us like forty five minutes to sort out all of the technical issues.

And because of that, i'm actually going to in the ultra to this if you want to get the rest of the little news items that we had stashed away for the month, i'm actually going to do kind of a fast superfast bullets point read of everything that we didn't cover in the show so we can round out the whole month and get all of the news. And if you have anything that you really want us to expand on or that you want to hear about in a show, just hit me up, shoot me a boost and a note on found they're just a response I found. I think you can do IT without APP not mistaken.

Or tag me on noster less likely to find IT on x but you can tag me on x to, I do try to stay up today on that one just so you guys can get up with me. So let me know and we will go here and get into the epo de real quick. I just want to say thank you to fold and thank you to everyone who supports the show who's zap s and boost.

And if you have not checked out full yet, they are having A A holiday sign up special twenty thousand sets for free right now if you use my link and it's actually a free way for you to support my show. So it's a way get seats and then also get me sets, I will get ten thousand seats for the sign up. And if you're not using fold, and if in your trying to be on a bitcoin standard or you're trying to integrate bitcoin into everything you do, it's really hard to be fold.

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I highly, highly recommend IT and there's a link in the shower notes that's great for both of us. With that, let's go ahead and get into we ve got mechanic jeff, Steve and myself. The round table is a symboled. Let's talk about everything that went down in bitcoin in november twenty, twenty four.

Alright, what you guys I want to get into first, I feel like, I feel like we've got a lot of little things and then a couple of really big things to cover. And I kind of feel like trump is the thing to start on because IT happened right at beginning of the month and maybe we should go in chronological order.

Okay.

okay, alright. So guys, guess what?

Orange man president.

orange man, orange men won the presidential election and um uh orange man has a team of uh people who are orange supporters are not only of orange man but also orange coin.

Sort of sort of its always a mix bag.

There's a lot of cyp to shit. So you know i'm not talking .

about the cypher shit i'm talking about it's a mixed back like the people he appointing or a mixed bag.

Oh, gotcha. Got cha. Well, he also, we also might get another trump coin, which is really exciting in enough itself.

And Charles husk, inland might be, we might be. So launch and and cardono d and all sort of like we will be. We will be the tech, the block chain innovation of the world.

Guys, tell me how excited are you about this wonderful, wonderful development. Steve, we'll start with you since europe. Pe, in the upstairs basement.

I think the sweet .

I like the best was have fun with their politicians and all the other things are playing with.

那是 非常 标准， 但是 标准 just just leave to that less to jeff。

Let's move on to you body. Now I say one more thing. I am really happy for the first day of trump's presidency, because either way, it's gonna be great.

Either he is going to part on us. Yes, yes. So brk or all the big lenders are gona realize why you should never listen to anything a politician says ever.

So either way, it's a exactly either way, it's great. Either way, it's great. I actually think he'll pardon he. He's mentioned enough um that I actually I mean he even did IT after he won and brought attention to .

know what .

was IT that he tried to forgot um but then he said free ross a free ross day one hash shape free ross day one underneath IT so he hasn't forgotten and i'll tell you, the big winners and libertarians will never like there will never be a post on any social media that does not have someone under like you son of a bitch. You lying piece of crap you did not free ross why is ross is still in a rocking cage so that he will not? He will never live that one down. When where are the other?

But yeah, hopefully I am very excited, prefer rules and I can't want .

to be there.

I've already been in conversations with liberals that like are trying to blame the current escalation tion of the of the ukraine were on trump somehow and like you know he's like he said he said what he said that he could in the war and with one phone call before he was even inaugurated and now the words escalating, i'm like you you get that is the people you are supporting that are escalating this war, right?

Like is, is this a problem for you? Do you think that escalating the war is bad because you supporting the people who are doing that?

The mental jm native.

he dude is incredible. And he put out a video of saying we should have an immediate ceasefire. You like like that's the best read we've ever heard from from ever you know like I you know so and and that's part of that I mean, like because he was clearly, you know not campaigning with liz Cheney meant that he was the anti war candidate and so you know that was like half the reason for voting for him you know ross being no half so um h the bit point stuff I I guess it's like that i'm still an aggressive think I don't think the politics solves anything so anything but I do think I guess tumblings said that he definitely matters who is in power you know like florida.

You know your life was measurably Better in florida than IT was in new york um and so like we're gonna get heat from all sorts of people all the time anyway. We can you know have the amount of attacks that we're getting be some sort of muddy like tolerable thing that we can fight and and resist, then I think that's probably Better. And so having some halfway defensive free speech, well, you know what?

We're trying to finish building, you know, key monster and all these things is probably not a bad thing. So friendly, friendly, halfway friendly. You know, handling a bit on.

you know, all that is okay.

So I think i'm more excited about R, F, K and the health stuff than I am about from stuff i've been thinking just I am on board like ninety five percent of what R F K says. I mean, yeah, our countries is so unhealthy.

it's so obvious it's bad. Yeah, i'm i'm an R, F K maxi like if you can make he's coming bizet .

he says .

coming .

this yeah.

yeah, I am the are of case stuff is is I mean in the fact that he's like out a legit vicker is kind of impressive to me but but like the being able to like, I don't know I mean, I don't know if anybody be able to like really go after and me he's a lawyer.

Maybe he'll be able to know, put a hurting on the pharmaceuticals ands in some way but like the health here system so corrupt and so messed up that they're like you got ta change somehow so I K I can't imagine they can really make IT measurement worse. I mean should probably be care for what to say but um but IT IT seems like he's you know aimed in the right direction that what my only worry is that he's not he's not a he's not he's definite not a free market guy well hasn't been historically. So so I worry that like he'll put some sort of regulation, he'll like try to convict things with regulation which will then be you know like um was the the boot legers in baptist theory right? Like though we'll try to um .

capture the regulatory .

agency or whatever they put in place.

Yeah they become the very thing that they supposed to be preventing yeah well, I mean, I think I I see three dots. Guy is attempting to his own life support at the moment, but know the plug. Yes, yeah.

I think I think guys agree with you that. I agree with you that politics doesn't solve anything. But I think the point is that politics makes bad. Politics can definitely make things worse.

So if you can get politicians in at least aren't going to make stuff worse, then that's Better than not than having politicians that you're going to actively sabotage every industry on the planet. Yeah inject money with you. Peak can till an effect, put money in the worst place is possible.

And outcompete anyone that actually performs as you know, a service or create a product that anyone would actually buy. So you end up just with garbage everywhere because it's subsidized like all food is made of corn. And so which is not food, so people are know, but it's it's an vegetable loyal, right? Just because these things are subsidized by malicious politicians in the pockets of big pharmaceutical companies, you know, fake, fragile and health agencies that you know fronted by people with obvious mental health disorders and all that. Like if I can vote in such a way that it's going to at least just make IT neutral again, then we like algorithm doesn't make sense in a while where you don't have free markets.

Markets won't solve the problem of market manipulation, right? And you know there is a fine line, what's market manipulation of what's genuine and this whole idea of rational consumers making informed decisions so easy as and true because crypto is just like the best demonstration of the fact that people are retard and i'll just invest in anything um but some of that is also a symptom of fear, right? So yeah, I mean the best we can do like I think when IT comes to like generally video games are a good example, right? IT was like people will spend money on good video games and is relatively unregulated and the parents showed up and ruin IT.

And now everyone has to be like, you know, transgender inside video games of stuff. And people stand to complain about this. But IT was pretty free, right? IT was like, wow.

Video games are amazing. They're made by really talented people. And like half of my like childhood has spent remembering some great video game I played.

And I was like, really expensive. And I really wanted IT, and I got IT, and IT was good. So that was like, and regulate IT is my point. IT just kind of did this thing. And I think, yeah, I think you can return to that when IT comes to electronics more widely and other wonderful things like food. I really would like to see food return to being just a reflection of what people want to be in a natural state rather than just like just, oh, you want, uh, you want a sandwich to you, but has nine thousand things you don't want or put inside IT that are just all toxic. And you know, I one of the things .

that kind of touch us on, one of the things that concerns me a little bit about thump is that he, like is trying to combat the um the I mean they just like a very real problem with like somehow IT costs less. Like like my microphone in canada is a cost her less to order a some makeup from australia than that does to order IT from the U S. Because there's some sort of like tags on stuff that comes from the U.

S. That makes no sense. Like and so there is some sort of like subsidization this happening on the shipping induction for the shipping industry and whatever is causing stuff that ship from halfway around the world to be cheaper than stuff that is you made right here.

And and IT is it's all in the shipping because like IT is true. That stuff this made here is, you know, more expensive than that would be made in china or somewhere. But but the shipping should like make that not like, I don't know IT just doesn't make sense to me. And so I think that there are some like real problems. And the government is like subsidized in crazy weird things and creating weird to but then trumps trying to combat IT with like tariff s which is adding more crap on top of unlike like the the problem is that we need to fine, the root of the thing is already distorting the incident, is not trying to like correct them with more government taxation. You know, I just to know.

well, the root of that, I don't know, isn't terrify like bear with me here. I haven't really put much thought into this, so i'll asked some question. Ont terrorists, just kind of a crude way to combat the fact that americans generally have a high standard of living or have an expectation of high standard of living with, like, a good set of values to orient all country around.

And when you compare that would like china, where it's just an expectation that like most people are kind of but you know perl is doing like you know boring factory work for very low money with no health and safety. Early of that stuff for expectation of high quality of life aren't how do you level that playing field, right? Like how do you do IT is even the same internally?

Would like let's get a bunch of illegal immigrants to do all the work no one in amErica will do for respectable salaries. Like how do you do that? Like isn't that part of the same process, right, that get rid of illegal immigrants and then people just you know your companies are not enough to stop paying more for stuff like IT.

That's just like I think for the most part, like like I may have worked with a lot of me, have work in construction and whatever, never work with a lot of people that mayor may not be. You here illegally, I don't know, but but is not so much like I don't know anybody that cares about the people we like.

Most of the immigration stuff really does seem to be, I think that the the left is using things like the voice of amErica to leg op aganda dies people in other countries into coming here and telling them they are going to get free stuff if they come here and then they're actually funding like convoys of people and then shipping them two major cities all over the country in order to like, pad like, they're like busting these people to voting booths and stuff like that. They're like and and again, like the countries that went left this time, we're all I mean that the states they went left this time, we're all states that don't have voting ID laws you know and that that doesn't mean that you know like correlation is not calibration. But um but there's definitely so serious like problems in a number of major cities in in where like IT looks like third world criminals are actually being brought here and what buki said from a severe he games talk me like, I know these some of these countries are actually sending new criminals.

They are unloading their prisons on you because your like your government is like importing people you and they don't care you. They just want like more bodies and in these places and they don't care who he is. And so so like why wooden these places like empty some of their prisons and lower their costs at your expense. You so I think there's really an immigration problem. But I don't think I don't think the majority like I don't think that the the thing that people are mad about has anything to do with the fact that there are people who want to come here in work is the people that like like somebody I was listen to like like went to like one of the who was I don't was either someone know how that was like the wind the guys that like you know took over the apartment complex or whatever and think that one was in colorado maybe um but like they literally held in the apartment complex hostage and like IT were extorting the members of the people in the apartment complex and um and so like this is like really happened you know like as far as I can tell, like even the main street, like the the corporate news head like you know report on IT they were like was only one apartment of building and you know it's not a big deal, was like, dude you're talking about about like an apartment building in A U I like in a first world country supposedly being little house like an entire you know like but it's an active .

war in an other context like it's just like imagine if that was russian in there the kind of not like noise they're make about yeah and and somebody somebody .

like travelled to when these places to see like if IT was I can't member with like like pod caster I listen to her maybe he is I don't know somebody and they like they said. You know we didn't see we didn't see by eating cat or or anything like that but we I did said I literally did see someone walking down the street like like threatened people with a moti. He's like like there is a real problem.

Like this is not Normal, you not going on um so yeah I don't know if it's I don't I don't know that like like I don't think IT makes any sense to try and baLance out what people are willing to work for in any way, shape, perform. Like if you've got people willing to work for list and that means your market for like that's that's a downward pressure. That means there's some natural deflation happening, some natural source .

of deflation you have. The trouble is wages after be construed to the standard of living expected by the people in the country, you know with a congruent quality of life like IT doesn't make any sense like you can't get out of the like dynamic that existed since the dawn of civilization, which is we get a bunch of people that don't speak the local language, that have a terrible time of IT wherever they're from in the first place, and we get them to do the shit work.

And what that does is that erode s the bottom of the local population and the middle class to like IT was the same in ancient room. Like IT was just had a slave at this, which meant the actual romans at the bottom of the wrong just are on powers with them, because the slaves are just gonna do all the work. And that IT like you come back from goal or whatever with a bunch of like slaves from there, and then they do the work in rome, and then no one else can do anything unless they're willing to accept the standard of living that a slave has.

So like, how how do you ever like? How do you ever square that circle? There isn't really a way to do IT like maybe something like terrorists, not evenly. I'm just saying maybe that's how you actually you do that. American isolation is thing where it's like it's just us doing what we're doing. And like if you want someone to like, just move stuff from a truck to the back of a supermarket or something the like, sorry, that guys in amErica that's gonna like, you know, two cars in his driveway and a mortgage can afford. And alex.

I think that quite holds up because I mean, you could argue the same thing that like your your starbucks mara is getting paid your slave wages or whatever, if you're you like on the same like same level of compensation, right? And and I think there is different like there are different levels of what people are willing to do, what they like can work for. And so it's these are like intro level.

Like like my mom was boring tobacco when he was you in in high school and like when he was Younger, that is what they bring people, and you as the sort of labor they they bring people into do. But like, that was, that was just what people did in her community. Like, like, that was just one of the jobs that was available.

And so, so like shouldn't do that anymore. But like when you're Young and you need a job and you're physically capable, whatever IT doesn't like, the problem is, is not like people move up based on you know like their socials to make their age and social standing and knowledge and everything else. And yes, you bring if you bring in people did don't speak language very well and you know aren't well educated, they kind of fill up the bottom, but it's more or less like depriving high school students of jobs than IT.

Is anybody else like because that is the sort of stuff that like we we naturally do those that like we cover most of those jobs anyway. Now maybe there's a bunch of privilege like but but like that's not like it's not abNormal for us to like for a whole society to be able to fill all of those positions without importing people. I mean, from what I think you do have .

those rights of passage, like, you know like you say, kids that are to get the first summer job, whatever, like, and that is supposed to be a job. So I don't know there's that too. I I don't really know how you do. I just think it's it's a scalability issue at the end of the day.

Like if you have a small area, a small town where you do have like the new generation coming up and there isn't like massive demographic imbaLance or something where it's like, you know ninety percent of people are know old age pensioners and there's not enough kids and stuff. There's a lot of variables, right? A lot of IT is just there are some economists that just look at demographics and there I don't need to pay attention.

Anything else is just demographics. I can tell you this country is screw like just based on the age disparity. So I don't know. I think there's too many things, but for some reason, i'm generally of the opinion the the terrorists will have a positive effect even if the you ideologically unpalatable able and it's and if you're it's been talking about getting rid of income tax, which is like i'm getting on the first plane to america. If you do that, like just if .

he did that, he wouldn't matter .

what he did with there.

didn't on that plane to north CarOlina a her like where in amErica and one I don't .

know some I don't know what state I would choose. That is a very good question. Um I think I don't know, I think i'm just like non descript red state, just one you wouldn't really like cans saw something just somewhere that doesn't get like illiterate financial disasters will be good somewhere that doesn't like have eight feet of snow from multiple months a year like .

change a thousand years. Now actually I don't know .

what the perfect american state is, to be honest. The entire east coast is just going rect. Like up north, the weather is this freezing or winter, and further south you get these awful hurricanes .

and stuff might might be western intendencia.

Yeah, I think in tennessee.

yeah, maybe tennesee is a good one. I didn't like nash feel much from there for a bit conference that was just just an absolute dump and like.

I mean, what what was what did you like about IT?

IT was just like, I don't I I grew up in a big city and then for the last few years, i've been living in a small city. When I go back to big cities, i'm just like, this is drugs everywhere and like, you know, it's just kind of filthy, you know, like, I live in this clean british colombian. Socialist old people's home in and like of the west coast of canada. There's just everything so clean here like and you get used to that after a while when you got kids around like when I have my kid in vegas was just like I don't want my kid in this city. It's just like, I don't want any other stuff around this .

going mei was like.

miami a zoo is an actual zoo are like like forty percent of people walking down the street like in a thug and nothing else like just and they'll just get in uber was like a hot, sweaty, naked ass and just like, leave sweat all over the now I have to get there after you this is really just and .

we try to walk to, we try to walk to one of the like, I don't know one of the dinner or something, one of the venues and and we turned the corner and I was like, nope, we can't walk down this street like, I mean, like, I was like, we got to go. We ve got to go around this walk or like color where or something IT was very clear that that there was like, like, I don't know people, I were about to fight each other and like, IT was very, very, very bad, said.

yeah, you can pick up when that kind of stuff is about to kick off but I don't moment I really like america, I really do. And if IT wasn't for the I O S, I said IT before, I would have just moved that I know, but the IOS is just such a bad institution when IT comes to tacks, is much worse than IT is in other countries.

And that, to me, just is enough to sort of counterbaLance all the other things like respect for, you know, self defense, second amendment, all that stuff is just so unique to america, like it's enough to just like turn the sea so all the way, or move IT to the other end, just because they're just so over the top, like Roger var and people like that. The kind of trouble is in that so ridiculous. And that wouldn't happen like when I left the U.

K. And IT wasn't my tax jurisdiction anymore. They were just like, okay, like they sent me a letter like and we think you are some money and I just have a lot of back and I don't live there anymore and no, I don't and they were like, oh, sorry about that that was the end of IT like IT wasn't just like, yeah, we're gonna trade ite you and put you in jail for ninety years.

We think you might like IT wasn't something like that, right? So i'm grateful for that. Genuinely so like as ironic as he is like a scow's ll circle because the american revolution was motivated by pune tive treatment. They know when you came to taxes and now the inland revenue is nothing like as bad as the internal revenue service yeah and .

I mean they'll steal your money and then like keep IT and and have you like prove your moneys innocence because like this is like how to get around like innocent of proven guilty is that like, well, your dead isn't applied to your money and your stuff is like, well, IT should apply that your property is the extension of your like basic human right like it's just so is so fuck and insane like the way things have like the total corruption .

I got part of what and hopefully we can actually load back up some of that recording you are talking about with the election and what what that means for bitcoin and or what IT doesn't mean for bitcoin. Um but there is one little section that I called when you are taught him about terrors and it's funny I can't believe like people are saying that trump was saying that they do terrace like day one which I I just seem so unbelievably stupid to me to do to be like, oh, we're going to get rid of the income taxes or where we're going to cut two trillion dollars from the budget. But then to do make every thing more expensive first, like before you would do that IT just seem so backwards.

Like do you want to piss everybody off and make everybody think that you're norm going to be of any user or going to be like White terrorists first? But england, um uh it's twenty the you know there the there's the element of capital controls and terrorists and everything. Could that even is that good for bitcoin um or is from completely neutral? I didn't mean that I missed if you have had anything specific to talk on that, and i'm here if you think this is positive or just not bad.

I guess this like for anything that's like a non physical good world service. The you know if you pay with the traditional payment network, there's the time because they're going to enforce IT. If it's paypal, they are going enforce IT.

However, if i'm hiring some a web developer from india or something and they expect bitcoin, then there's no typhon that, right? So I mean, that could be great for a bit going because you can't IT can't be deputize. You can't deputize the bit on never to enforce jurisdictional xia. You can with paypal and visor that crap. So anything red tape is always good habit on because it's just really annoying to do that big coin for the authorities.

Did you have any a points on this, Steve?

Now not really. I Terry have seen I seem kind of entire market. I guess it's like sometimes I think in my home owners association and sure a hood nis association could like decide to have a terror on anything that comes in through its like gates or whatever.

And I guess that's still okay if everybody volunteers in. But yeah I mean short term locally for the U S. May be tired so we good income tasks goes away. But like generally long term and seems weird.

I think they .

disrupt supply changes when you vertical inflation and and you you talked about adding a new costs and you know whatever supply and that's that's gonna disrupt supply chains. Like if you increase the influence for somebody like sometimes ban about the chinese inputs for something they're making here, that's going to change the cost of the final product, you know and so um I mean, you know the fact that I can go buy cheap tools that harper free makes my life easier. So if all those things are going to go up in Price is not a good thing. Um but I don't know a lot of times like know when he was targeting china specifically for terrify people were just like shipping IT to other they were shaping IT to like how I like some other country first and calling IT you know like like IT was coming from that country instead and so IT doesn't really like I know we'll see maybe maybe he'll just it'll be some arbiters thing that people can .

kind of get around yeah you already have a situation where because of the the monetary problem, the fact that we export paper more than anything else because of how trash are currently var, uh, is you have you have a situation where like IT makes more like it's literally cheaper to ship something from halfway around the world than IT is to make IT here. And we've exported our base and like so adding to that like a be shipped at the france first and then shift IT from france to the U. S. Just to get around the tera h IT just makes things that makes things that should never have been economical to begin with make economic sense, which is really so much of the problem that we're dealing with anyway by and that be interesting to see what happens if he does that day one, I mean to be like what I did, what god doesn't make any sense to me, but whatever like i'm not sure .

the ramifications. To be honest, I really can't tell what what's gonna en as a soul of IT. I do think there's like an under like there is an ethic call element, like an undeniably ethical element to what you choose to spend your money on.

Like if there's two products at the same and one of them I know is made in a death trap in a skyscraper int china and another one was made like you know in in canada, amErica or locally for me, right? I'm going to prefer to buy the other one and I would even spend more money on IT. So I mean, at least when a law reflects you know, an ethical principle is Better than when the law reflects an unethical principle. So you know, I don't like there's something about IT that makes me amenable to IT, but i'm probably just being a idea.

Well, the thing is, is like china, I really like the change. The chinese employment problem is a problem because, you know, china is any economic mess, you know, authoritarian like place, but like, you know, people line up. I like the thousands for like the apple factory jobs and the nike factory jobs and stuff in china.

And so so like compared to what theyve got, it's like the options they have, these things are dramatically Better. And that's the partner. Like whose fault is that? Like the fault of the chinese government is fool.

Like IT may be the fault of apple and nike for lobbying for more control. And you I don't note what the film they're doing over there. Like you know maybe they doing the same thing there they do here to like you know try and like increase their own like advantage over other companies? I don't know.

but isn't this a bit like if a bunch like if you managed to successfully educate people that shit coins are awful and don't buy them and someone goes like, but what about older people work in at coin base? They'll lose their job like isn't and you kind of making that I like let's let's buy good things like that aren't well.

like, okay, so like harper fit. Like I don't know where most of those tools I mean are made in china. Like I an excavated made in china.

Like so I don't know what the working conditions are in the factors that are making these things, but I do know that like when I like follow the groups online, that like somebody is like keeping up with people having problems or stuff, that the product seemed to be getting Better. So like so like at least the people running the company seem to be like aware of a score on. And so but I I don't know what that that means for the workers and you know the conditions that going on there. But at the same time, like I don't know like like is .

IT like I don't know.

Like I don't think I don't think spending more on me, like the the difference in costs and the difference in quality. Like like so the chinese exhibitor is lower quality. Like there are already things i've had to fix, but they're not major things and I would have had to pay.

I was paying, I paid for a brand new excavator. I paid the same Price that I was going to pay for one with, like, over a thousand hours on IT domestic. Cally, that was like a rust book.

They had all sorts of problems. So you know it's like the difference in Prices is incredibly like it's just really dramatic. And you know I don't I mean, maybe that's all just because they need you know like like where ship and feet over there. And I I don't I don't know what all of the things that play or but you know, IT is good for me to buy things that make the most economic sense for me. And the money is supposed to be the signal that things are flowing in the right way at when there's a distortion is that .

I don't know how you really becomes are interesting like but I guess kind of an ethical question is like easy going to make any difference if you change is like a good a good example actually is like my buying a house on on dead is, you know, when I bought the house, IT was the house that we live in.

And without calculating for any of the stuff that we've put into at the improvements we've made like IT made up like really serious financial sense because right now our debt is only is only like a half of the value of the house. The the Price of the house has more than doubled in the span of time since we've bought IT. Without calculating for the fact that we've put supports all way downstairs and remove all the pillars and simple ted in the basement, read on the .

but I basically gotten .

has the house for free because I just bet against inflation. But like it's basically i've basically allowed myself because of how crap we are money is to leverage against the dollar on a four percent interest mortgage and I just never have to pay repay the economy for what i've taken out of IT. I guess essentially what's what's happening. But I got to subsidize.

I got a subsidies ized by people who are working and had the value of their paycheck go .

down every paycheck as why it's a big financial decision to do IT, as why IT forces everybody in the real state and forcing everybody to bloat the stock market. And I hate IT pieces me off. Yeah, it's bullshit.

I just did the same thing. I just had to renew my mortgage and you know, I did the whole deal and IT was just you borrows a bunch of money. I I have a house that costs more than IT should and i'm borrowing money to pay for IT like everyone else does.

And it's just complete bush. Like at every level this is a sm like every single persons like the mortgage broke, the the, the landa, the notary like, uh, you know, the old provider, the the new provider. I am like every single one of you is just in a complete game industry. All you're doing is facilitating everyone to buy houses with money they don't have to collectively raise the Price of IT and to make IT. So the long story short, all of us are just working .

on behalf of banks that .

work like the back makes a bunch money. Yeah, yeah. It's just we're all working for an industry that does absolutely nothing like the old image of the the octopus on the face of humanity label is golbin sex just like to suck everything out of you like you do anything, didn't money and gave that to me.

Now I have to give you thousands of dollars every month. And if I don't, you just have a house. congratulations. Like it's it's such a scm and we all just participate in IT. And then the most inferred things on the boom m is are all like, you know you Young people don't want to work anymore as that you bought a house .

for forty gram that's .

not worth eight hundred thousand.

We don't want to. That's where it's it's.

it's just such a scam. And I just I don't I know my house isn't n't worth that. I know like the amount of work I would have to do to earn over a million canadian dollars to buy this, like a quarter of an acre plot of land. Like it's just garbage. Like, I know this is all garbage, you know, it's garbage, but we all just play this .

stupid and mechanic. Um big think of this one chicken of this. This is the great leg. I mean, a good is the joke of IT.

Like i'm doing really well because I have been a bit coin for years. So I can like if they're like you got to take out a hundred chg mortgage, can actually do that thanks to bit going, but like most people can't do that.

And like this is canada and just like middle class people are just suddenly had the button fall out of their life over the last few years who had just like, yeah, I can't go to the dentist that's like an eight hundred dollar check up and I might not have the problem. I think I do IT might just go away. I'm not onna go like I get charged that even if I don't have a caveat, however. So i'm just not gonna like this people doing that now who are like Normally like middle class fluent people like in twenty twenty that like just actually have at the bottom fall out.

People don't understand how much not it's feel .

like I am the person you guys are talking about. I don't own a house and I haven't gone to the dinner in ten years.

I'm my god dey. I'm the soccer. Er.

I ve .

been been. I don't.

I can even, I can even make against the outside of my pico. I am poor. Yes, SHE is there will be crazy though because this will fix IT and it's it's to be enough to see what happens in this cycle specifically. Look as I think like the whole idea is that you shouldn't be sucking up the resource is out of society that you don't need just apart money, you know, like you shouldn't be buying a house if you don't need a house and the house shouldn't have been made unaffordable because a whole bunch people are printing money in buying like IT just says, like we all just owe the black ground to goldman sax in black rock because they're creating the money. They're holding all of our retirements and then they d buy mortgage back securities and then sucker like just suck up all the houses is why everything stayed in the marker like twenty four hours max because they just they just print money, buy IT up and then rent IT back to us. We rent the whole country from the whole volunteer people who are just close to the speak.

They use everybody to retirements to make all the companies we buy from gay.

But rainbow is on everything um but so mechanic, you roll something up was get back on the bitcoin was go back on big because there's a bitcoin news show doing around up here. Oh no.

H no.

no. My news .

network and and and Steve mechanic .

said that you had a perspective on convenance. And i'm curious and actually we can use that something on, I think is like a twitter thread or amy noster something recently and that IT was funny because it's something I identify with. Like as I said in one of the recent episodes, is whenever did together is that I still like the primitive and I like the scope of C.

T. V. But your hundred percent right on what you post on is that there is there is no construction with IT. Now like IT seems useful in a lot of different ways and IT seems like IT could simplify some of the things that we already have. But there's like nothing super exciting to something, nothing to be super excited about.

It's like unissued the holy grail of layer tools that are really easy to build and also change the risk assumptions a lot. It's just kind of it's kind of mad, I think is what you you bring. The thing which I think is a get 到 100.

i think somebody somebody out to build whatever they if they have some some specific feature that they want that to cover are required for. They have to build a wallet that uses liquid to do IT and show us and then like, okay, yeah, we would love to have this on you big maintain .

yeah I think it's a room noster a little wala this this phenomenon. And like any collaboration environment where there's like multiple people trying to do a thing, where everyone actually agrees that we want a thing, but no one can quite agree on the right way to do IT. So IT never happens.

And I think a good example that is like secret, a message signing, right? Like we have message signing with legacy addresses was never a problem, like we knew, we know was a thing. And IT worked the same way wherever is, like a bunch of different ways for signing messages with secret addresses.

And everyone hates all of them, but everyone wants them. Like there's no. Like, everyone has one that isn't as bad as the other. And so he go going sparrow and transient. A message with the secret address is like four different standards for doing IT or three, I can't remember and that's just because no one can agree on how to do IT.

And it's the same with like bit in nine, right? Like we want to to have a way where you can pay people, you know, they can give you information once, and you can pay them multiple tenants without address reuse. That would be great. But no one can agree on a way to do IT.

And when someone does just yellow IT like sammer I did with that, you know, people I like, no, this isn't the right way to do IT called dev advice against IT um it's like you just can't have IT like there's no all the core dev like yeah don't use hardware wall, it's as well and that's what most people do at this point. No like no is not good enough and then you like suggest something Better and they're no there isn't any likely which are going to come up with. I get like internal ocean affairs.

I'll mention like we I build a lot of just you know intel note boxes that just run a bitcoin node and data and looks just like, well, we can't trust that. We can't recommend that and i'm like, alright, fair enough you know intels backboard, we know that like, you know, D B N doesn't satisfy him either. I am like, right so what we recommend he's like, I don't know okay so like, all right, what's like if if ocean was to sell like a pre built that in um like what how I will be used is I don't know.

Like alright, what rn would we use? All right, it's going to have the the error correction, all right, in case bit get flipped in your mind. Valid book because that's the thing.

okay. All right. We can agree on that. What what manufacturer though, I don't know, right? So you just like every step of is right, right? We can agree on an Operating system. We can't agree on a manufacturer for the hardware like at at some point, you just have to go you have to hold the feet to the fire of like the the big brains like the developers and you know and go if we don't do this, someone is gone to make the most horrible product. You can not .

imagine it's going .

to work. It's gonna work. You're going to hate everything about IT. So how about we just bite the bullet and build something at least isn't as bad as that, right?

So I think when IT come when IT comes to convenance right like this, the you know, there's so many people that have issues with all of them because they they want to do IT a different way, right? And then you have like A P O can kind of be made to do what, you know, A P O can kind of be made to do what convenance does in around about way but IT has six you know seek cashing modes right or when I only really need one and the other five kind of weird um but unlike no one's demonstrated to use for any other and it's like we shouldn't do something this this broad in scope and Allen hands like we're onna pick apart the useful parts of A P O and just do that which is like counterintuitively, it's four of code instead of one but it's supposed to only do one thing instead of a bunch of unnecessary stuff despite that. And but like like you are just describing what I said guy CCTV is um IT doesn't do that alone.

Uh you need a bunch of other stuff with IT. And when IT comes down to what C T V itself does, it's like that the fireworks just aren't there. It's not like segura.

It's not like tap, brutish and all. You don't have this. Like if we have this, we can do that and we all want that.

And it's great. Let's just go and fight about how to activated. Maybe, but at least we all agree.

it's basically more of that. If we have C, T, V, then we could also have this, and then we could do some really close.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You need check IT from back for IT to be for in order to have, like Allan simec is a huge thing. I can get behind that all day because it's every lightning node.

If it's you know during a reasonable amount of if it's reasonably active node, it's got a store gieger bites of data of prior channel states because that's the only way you can. That's the way the justice mechanism works in lightning as IT stand today. The minute you have simec that's gone, you only need to keep the latest state. That's just that is like dream scenario scaling for lighting and it's just great. But C, T, V, this doesn't enable IT unless you add the annick to IT, which jerrem's Robin proposed with a modified version of V, C, T, V, and no one liked IT.

So again, either you have to push, go back to the drawing board and push for C, T, V in a way that no one likes, or push for C T, V in a way that doesn't give us what we want with our and symmetry or you have to go to A P, O, which doesn't know anything like consensus so that you're not moving forward with any of that. Um but anyway, out like this, i've because I really just wanna AR what Steve was saying because yeah if I can ask what Steve to touch on one specific thing um obviously my concern is around unintended consequences of secret in tapu where we just have people storing mass amounts of orbital data and ignoring prior filters. That worked great, right? So we had data cariocas you never saw or perturbations because the eighty three bites, and you never saw data being stalled in other ways.

Then you suddenly have insanity after, you know, the soft folks made IT possible to make an entire block one JPEG. And just these awful things that happened, and, you know, ninety percent of blocks space was just absolute bullshit for a couple of years. And now the chain is like unthinkable on hardware that was previously fine. All that stuff happened.

And the people that seem completely unfed by that even would advocate for IT um championet is an old time of use case for bitcoin solved the security budget ya a ta all those people have been the ones that are pushing for the convenience upgrades um and that is a smoking gun but at the same time I can't demonstrative ly point to something that is done by C T V or cat or any of the other proposals that would suddenly take some unknown break off the system right now and cause us to have yet another wave of a new kind of orbital data injection into bitcoin. The the moment went not aware of but all of the all of the politics would tell me that that's a risk. But I can't find the technical um explanation for why that would be a thing.

And something you wrote in our internal chat a few days ago makes me think this is exactly what i'm concerned about. But where is the actual mechanism for how they would do IT? So I hope I make sense .

as a question yeah that make sense um I don't know a specific uh mechanism by way to need to have and I think if there was an obvious mechanism by which you would happen, somebody would have body um you know talk about IT or whatever and nobody is saw that span would end up in the witness data you know I mean this is kind of like A A black swan kind of thing.

Like I don't think anyone now can predict healthy T V will be used five years after its enabled. If it's enabled, like whatever you think C, C, T, V is gona be used for now, the chances that is going to be used for that just because your creativity isn't as good as one hundred thousand people thinking for five years. Um I just think I mean who knows maybe maybe IT will all work out.

And like I would say, improving lightning is definitely the thing that i'm attracted to most about the component stuff um but you know in the back of my mind, you know member those old on dress onto a place videos or he talks about scaling, just talks about the history of scaling for like voice over I K and for like you know the internet can't do this. The internet can't do that. And because you're always kind of like thinking about what IT is now and there will be people that say, like, hey, i've thought a very possible way and the only way to scale is my way to scale.

And we got to do IT now because like if we wait too long, then like all the should going to happen and we won't have any time to fix IT. So we're got to scale now. We're got to do IT this way. Because no one else can have any other ideas and then like that doesn't happen and then like somebody else comes up with another idea a couple years later. And then I scales on a different layer in a way that you never thought was going to yeah I that's just my kind of feeling of what's gona happen .

that's Jimmy songs argument um and it's a very compelling one and it's just these things are possible and the without messing around with the base layer like you can do IT IT requires a bit of intelligence and adding soft folks to constantly come up with the new ideas is just an incredibly child childish way to do things like just you can figure out a way to do IT without it's not as fun IT might IT might require years of work instead of just changing bitcoin every time you get a new smart idea.

But the fact that they're not being done speaks to the fact that no one in this has like a serious approach about IT. They're they're not prepared to work for years and grind something. They just wanna add a new soft fork and then have some fun and then you know maybe making name for themselves in the process because getting a soft k into bitcoin is is career making.

So yeah, our motivations there. And when you keep messing around with the base later, you always create risks and you just rock, pull everyone. That's that's the worst thing about IT.

Anyone that's like grinding away, working on an arc that works without c TV or csf s gets rug pulled because they just change the way the basic layer works. And now there's this other way to do IT. So i'm not even gonna a bother working on IT.

Now like if you tell people you are not changing bitcoins base layer again, leave me alone. Nothing is changing. Then people go, alright, i'll build on that. And IT might take them years to come up with something. But if you're like, oh, we got this new you this new um address type coming in eight months or something, no one's going to do anywhere. It's because they know that like the design space is gonna change yeah so you have to commit to saying no whenever changing this, then everyone can orient themselves .

around .

that out to well, antistius point is that like if if you add and I may like i'm not i'm not a dive, but like if when I start when i'm working on something, the three printing was a good example. Like when you get a new tool, you have to rethink all year every the way you approach problems completely, yet, like everything changes and you to learn how to think in terms of what this new tool can do versus everything else that you use.

And so I dot like this. Part of the reason, i'm sure that IT takes years. And part of the reason that we don't know what's gona happen is that like when you've got somebody that learned to the system after this tool was already made and saw what other people had done with IT then is really easy to make some connection that other people haven't made because you didn't have the original improper framing to overcome, you know. So so yeah IT just there's always going to be a for start bread.

I don't remember which one this was in. It's been a few years now, but IT was talking about technological change that specifically, like kind of technological primitives, is like when you have like an entirely new A A tool is so useful that IT really changes how you think about the problem. And we're talking about how, like, yes, technological innovation and the speed of technology is changing drastically, just ever accelerating.

But he made an argument that what's actually going to happen isn't that we are going to just forever speed up as a civilization, for we're just going to adopt the next, next technology in ten days. He is because what actually when you actually see how people adjust to new technology and actually started taking advantage of IT properly, that that hasn't sped up, that the time hasn't really shunk IT still takes like ten to twenty years to fully realize any new technology. And that he makes the argument that is actually going to stretch out the dynamic where more people are on older technology and there are more people who are aggressively like like the the difference and technology from the people who are non tech to the people who are on the cutting edge is just going to keep getting wider and wider. And the optionality and kind of the dynamism of the economy is just going to aggressively expand rather than the everybody's at the new technology and everything to use IT immediately.

I think it's like maybe this this is not the best analogy, but it's like if you invented the airplane in the car and the bicycle in the subway all in the same week, yes, like none of IT would take off like no one intended because it's like this, too many like like you need them all to come out one by one and developed their own news case.

Like, you know, it's same in monitoring in what this is another and you don't pay a parking ticket with a check or something like parking me to you put coins in IT. There are different kinds of unit, right? So it's like you don't come out with like everything at once. You have to do things one by one and then the use cases for them become clear. Yeah and you know the circumstances in which you'd use a specific iteration of a technology would become like obvious and you don't you don't throw them all at everyone at once because I just not appropriate for every use case or scenario.

I guess story on something that Steve was saying is talking about how like like we just don't know how people are going to use IT. And just in the the general concept is there's no limit to human ingenuity. There's actually something in our news list gets very relevant to the conversation about convenance because uh couple of people, Andrew pollster uh AV q levy and Victor colvile have an ease entire ment have figured out how to do.

They've got collider script and they're figured out how to do convenance on bitcoin as is. And the way they've done IT is actually by using the shaw one algorithm, hashing algorithm and ripe M D one sixty, is that you deliberately make the little two different things, unlock the same script with the hash. And so one of those things can be a carbonate along with like the Normal, it's like until you just and the those current code security of IT is that you can create with with those algorithms because they are old, couldn't code broken algorithms. You can create a collision and about a day's worth of coronal biton mining um but you can create three collisions because that's going to take in the fact the section of got right here is IT each cover in IT uh two .

to the eighty six .

hash queries and two to the fifty six bikes of space so for security rely on the assumption that regarding the hardness of finding a freeway collision um with uh with short random inputs, hundred and sixty eight hash function, arguing that if the assumption holds breaking a covenant enforcement requires two to the one hundred and ten hash queries so to put this in perspective, the work to spend our cover inet is about thirty three hours of the bitcoin mining network. Whether breaking the cover inet requires four hundred and fifty thousand years of the bitcoin mining network. So they're literally found a way, A, A, literally a around, around by using a broken hash function and using IT broken to create the same hash from two different pieces of information, so that you can make coconut, which is pretty nice.

This is what I mean. That stuff exists. You can figure stuff like this out, but if you keep logging everyone by making other designs for IT with unknown consequences, then people are going to put this kind of effort in. I mean, I think that's that's genius.

Really I really was a genius. Um yeah, I got saw a few weeks ago and I looked into that and my feeling that I was super complicated stuff but my feeling when I was reading that was these guys have found a way to make like a proof of work style difficulty adjustment style different levels of um you know brute forcing to like make this whole system where it's kind of like you can only use this convenient if you really really want to like computers like here you're willing the brute force um try all combination of letters until you find out what the script was kind of thing like um I was I do that is this just a wild I mean, I was just like that kind of creativity is stuff i'm .

talking about like I was never real which cover that we want and somebody .

figured that out you know yeah well I think that like i'm damas when IT comes these like the depth of these protocols and stuff like there are there are outputs in shared that are not achievable with any input. It's not like this, not an even distribution of like all the numbers between zero and two to the two hundred and fifty six minus one are achievable in a Normal distribution like because we know that there are multiple inputs that can give you the same output. That's what a collision is.

But there are is known that there are numbers within that field with that finite field that are actually not achievable with any input, which is actually kind of why bitcoin mining slowly breaks as we start to have more than fifty percent of the block had to be zeros at the beginning, you start to have all minors start dropping below one hundred percent luck because just some of the stuff that some a subset of the numbers that are acceptable that are below the target as required um become a bigger and bigger percentage of the um you know the the achievable things that you'll get out of shot fifty six. So it's like if you can have if it's essentially saying, you know you've got you need to find a number below ten within one hundred sided dice, right? You got a one in ten side of one in one in ten chance of that being successful, right? But actually the number seven will never come, no matter how many times you really, because he just doesn't exist.

So seven is one tenth of the acceptable numbers, right? And then if you go down to in is to be below eight. Now seven is one eighth of all the numbers, right? So IT keeps getting worse and worse like that.

So we know share of fifty six does have that thing, and it's probably gonna an issue like by twenty forty or something. So i'm just given the sort on the fact that these things aren't mathematical perfection, that they have these issues. How do you like come out with this reliable um you know a assertion that.

There's a the chances of a collision or roughly one day of mining and the chances of you know a three way collision or you know require a hundred of thousands of years. Like, how can that be like a this is I should really should be all seen like the actual cpt graphs like i'm not sure any of us know, but this is just my question. How can you make that sort of assumption and be like, yeah, this is a reliable government. I'm going to look my money on something that can only be spent if I can mind a collision in twenty four hours when I know that these algos have all .

these things .

just because the likelihood of the collision is an potential problem. Elena, is that the the longer because because it's the the hash is still it's literally just the space of the hash is not about like two different are talking about the the collision between two different things having the same hash versus three completely different things having the same hash, which is a multiple of the exponent to the exponent. So their on top of the sort .

of the same as the value of a network, like the .

growth of a network. Remember.

you can change the have like.

sure, you can find two other pieces of information did collide into the same hash. But after you have a hash collision, now you have to find a third piece of information with the same hash collision. So it's an exponentially bigger problem to to the same. So it's the fact that you can change the hash of the destination you're supposed to come up with, wherein the first to contest the birthday problem. So like the reason the first was easy to do is because that you can you can change both of them until you have a collision. But once you have a collision, trying to change a third, where you can only change hap of IT to get the same hash like is super difficult is why I like in a classroom or whatever, you I need twenty six people to get a birthday collision um so that's yeah that's the only that's the level of understanding that I have is to why I think that's actually there's actually something too why that is secure.

Amazingly, I hadn't really understood that Frankly when I first came out and I really wasn't sure whether I was a joi think everyone responding to the like noble, a lot of people like this is a joke right in their response to the to the thing that is actually not like from what you're saying. I'm looking at IT and like this, this is pretty genius.

I think IT works. I think there's something really interesting there. And IT maybe just be one of those things where it's like stay training are really cool, but no where IT seems that we're using them. You know there may just be a big enough barrier that IT would do anything, but I think they're figure something out that's complete.

that's unique, i'll be honest, like the shit is in the family with IT. And I i've seen an opportunity of the last week and i'll be handed with you guys. So there's a lot of disillusionment around bitcoin core and a lot of the people push for convenance. So like in a in a similar way to the way the the the filter advocates like me have been disillusion with core, apparently just being negligent. They feel the same way, but about something else.

And IT is, at the end of the day, aligned with the purpose of like maximizing bitcoin network utility as you as a monetary network, right? And you know in theory the convenance brows uh aligned with us because there of the perspective that if you can increase the economic density of your on chain footprint, IT will out compete other use cases more easily, right? Like I can out compete your chapel with an l one transaction uh or I can now compete IT with the fact that there was a lightning channel that did you know thousands of transactions which makes you know gives me a disproportional advantage.

So that was the argument that they're making from a monetary maximum st point of view. Um and i'm like and you're also pissed off with core, so core on going to activate this stuff and you're not not going to be able to activate IT with a rog client like this isn't bit one forty eight secret kind of thing. Again, if you have A A C T V activation client out there in the wild um that doesn't activate a soft fork that exists inside core anyway that just doesn't have activation like you or their activation isn't you know gonna this just won't do anything and you'll trigger U R S F which is maybe that needs to happen you know for anyone listening that you know the opposite.

U I S F. That's like the bitcoin community saying we don't want this soft fork you're trying to put in and we're going to actively rejected. Um so you know I looked at IT and I thought, all right, well, here's an opportunity then why don't the people that are trying to get the filters fixed in bitcoin, which they have with knots, which is getting a lot more adoption of APP, to say there's over a thousand notes notes on the network now, which is like a record for which is awesome.

Why don't the people that want that join forces with the people that want to activate C. T. V, because they're all pulling towards the same. For some reason, we've totally hated each other as two different communities. But IT doesn't any sense that we did let just reconcile ate and let's move forward that way.

And luke is basically the person whose wait behind in any initiative is what's needed to get a fork activate or or not in this historical precedent for that. Luke activated. You know, cigarette was dead until luke said bit one forty happening and then IT happened and we have cigarette.

So and that was, you know without core. IT isn't isn't because look look isn't like a massive C T V guy. He just thinks this thing has consensus.

Like people see like most people that are against IT um you know aren't strongly against IT. No one's found anything about of this like, yeah, that will break something. But a lot of people want IT and IT. Look, in his opinion, that looks like IT has consensus, therefore bittorrent court being negligent if they're not putting IT in.

I think the power behind look's opinion is that such an unbelievably disagreeable person. But if he increases on something, rise like, oh, okay, okay, we might be on to something.

I want to have Steve thoughts a little more because, like Steve has, my perspective at the beginning was just that bad act is pushing for this thing. Don't mess a bitcoin. And even during this conversation here, I have become even more like, I don't want to do this.

I just don't want to do IT. Because if you know this, there are ingenious things that can happen with be going as IT exists today. Like, like, I find IT so hard to not keep coming back to that position every time I start getting a little bit ten, maybe you can. Steel man. C, T, V, Steve, like, that's me, what I can ask you to do.

And the still men of C, T, V, I, S, A, 嗯， well, like you said, there just C T V itself isn't gonna be the thing that makes lightning like a whole lot stronger. So that I guess that helps. But I might need something else to make a lightning stronger.

And then you know, potentially there are some U T X O sharing opportunities that could come along with C, T V. If put by some miracle, some demand shows up and by some other miracle called that the kind of developers that work on up codes are going to a transition. The kind of developers that actually make applications and like, make you accent stuff.

So it's like so that's the still man. Is that like a lot of there is a very small percent chance that is going to work out that the effects of C, T, V are gona work out the way people think they do. But that would be the steel man, is those things are possible.

You made one point that you haven't made again here, which I really want, that I thought was brilliant.

And I had not before again in our internal chat what you just talked about, who will work on IT when we have IT, who has got IT? Is IT the main people pushing for the tap rate visits? So if there working on what is made possible by it's not going to be on arch or other things that are about U T, X, O, it's gonna be about spam because that's what they're interested in doing.

So the fact that you just have that mindshare that's going to use the resources specific game means that's what will manifest as being used as like there. Like, do we need jams and lop and bend carbon? And those guys working on a new kind of wallet that does ut X O sharing, they're not going to do that. They've made IT obvious abundantly clear that they're not interested in that. So activating the tool.

it's only gonna used by the people who are advocating for IT and want IT. And so that's what it'll be used for what yeah whenever that thing .

is yeah you well in funding people that want to build and maintain wallets and that's .

like major .

problem yeah but like I I wonder if we can build if you could build a wallet on liquid that has the lightning symmetry y or whatever that you want you know to to bring the bitcoin and and have you start growing? I mean, because we have bridges now between liquid and lightning and and like i'm assuming ing you have you basically just building A A liquid token channel.

IT is has A A biton token in channel the other side, right? Like like somebody's taking the risk of managing you both those nodes and and aggers as a bridge. And so if you could start building uh a lightning network or a lightning wallets that use those bridges or whatever, but that are really, really light weight, easy to run on mobile because and you're actually interacting with the lightning network because you you have some metrical channels, you being built on on liquid because of the convenience and the stuff is already there.

Then then you've got like and you're you're build you're literally building out the stuff that we want and you say, hey, would be really good if we could bring this you know to a bitcoin and so you don't have you at least got something we can immediately port over. You know, when I like, you know, like for all people, like, like, say, what happened on bitcoin is in? No, I do. I do think that .

light coin .

adopting IT first, inventing at first, played a big role in that. Like, I think having a space, I do you, I don't.

So I think that.

I think because people were so afraid of IT not being saved and .

there was so much .

fun about, you know, that anyone can spend who just stopped this kind of like the the left right now, who like we've been so an anti like crypto and bitcoin for a really long time. And then when IT became apparent that that wasn't going to work anymore, they just shut up. They didn't become like pro bitcoin.

Encrypt u when trump t went pro and said, you know, all the coop was up you're playing with like they didn't they didn't mere him, but they did shut up about IT. They did like somebody got a memo or an email to this, be warm and please shut your mouth. This is hurting us. And I really think that's what happened with light coin, is that he even convinced anybody really, in a sense.

But I got them to stop saying that and stop because a lot of people, I think, did believe cgi and everybody and Roger bear, who is like all they're just going to steal coins and then literally somebody put like twenty million dollars in on a seg with address and said, steal IT and they they just SAT at there to steal IT and they are at all. You can still was like, okay, here IT is. And like, just kept month to month, another month, another month, another month went by.

IT was state at SAT there and then that just became not part of this conversation anymore. I think he was IT wasn't everything like IT was a no reason. But I think IT was a big part of why they kept losing points.

You know, I think you guys are right. I think i'm making this mistake. I keep trying not to mate, which just stop thinking. People are going to look at these things in a non stupid way so that anyone can spend secret foot was ridiculous. But you're right.

Maybe it's a factor because now I look at convenance and the main neger reaction seems to be the government can force you to accompany your coins, know in like right? And I every day someone comes up with the argument against confidence. And unlike that does not apply here in a unique sense because you can do that with multi sic. So if it's a worry, it's already a thing and that's not like you .

can put a recursive carbonate on somebody else as address like. And I don't think people realized that. Is that like even a recursive cabinet just means that you're inside the keys that created IT and you're just in like a sub key between that you don't have that you don't have a while, you're just using.

So one of quit. But as far as like a recursive coding IT that like is literally a black list that you can use IT, you can do something if you make an address and give IT to somebody. They can add new stipulations to that.

You have created that, not IT, and includes all the coin and all the mop c, all the everything. Yes, IT still work to the same way you might IT. Time locks have the same security profile as to somebody can force a time lock on your coins. No, they can not unless you're using their wallet and they're telling you how to generate your self. But that's that's a different problem than time locks can be forced.

You it's not immune to coercion like a government can say you must use an address that provably only has outputs on this approved list, but that is exactly the same as them saying you must in to an address that we generate together. That's a multi sig address that I have one of the private keys for and it's a two of two so you can spend IT without my permission. They can just as trivial ly do that.

And if that's a problem, then it's a problem, right? Like but at the end of the day, this is like bitcoin can't is is almost the stone was like someone can come to me and hold a gun to my head and tell me they sure. But that's just bit .

there's .

nothing you can do. Well, it's there's nothing you can do about IT.

Like I mean, a well, there are metal rules, you know like it's just it's just not relevant you and and it's just .

not unique to confidence, right? But like you say that that does seem to be the main sticking point. And interesting the anda whose name keeps coming up today um was like the first to push that third like he did a video on C T V M was like governments can force people to income, but coins, you know, government black lists and the rest of and it's like that this is not it's an amazingly bad argument to make.

But it's so terrifying that when you hear you go, oh no, I don't like IT so that's IT but that's not it's not an intelligent argument to make against IT like the the three positions of of summaries against IT oh that one which is groupes, they just don't the people pushing for IT don't really care about eight billion people having U T exos. Access to the base layer for cheap and all that stuff because if they did, they wouldn't be you know massively against making the filters work properly. Um and to my songs position was what we've been talking about for the most part, which is you can do IT already.

People just aren't bothered because it's not that compelling and because you keep rugg's them by changing the design space. And Jacobs position is that people pushing for assets and you can't let assets put upgrades into bitcoin because that what is he's like we did with secret two ex. We did secret two eggs.

We literally have to make a bite blocks and seet. That's literally what pyrite to x was. It's just we didn't anna do IT the way they told us to with a new york agreement.

We didn't want to be like, yeah brian armstrong and jeff gaza are now in charge of bitcoins code base. yes. Like we didn't want to a do that for political reasons. We actually did the upgrade though. Um obviously IT was a software k instead of a hard fork. But the point is that we basically have said good to eggs, but we didn't want to to let the new york agreement and barrier silver and all these assets come in and stop .

throwing the wait around and telling us what wrote garbage code. Never produce like there's there's a reason why apple and incompetence goes together.

IT wasn't that .

IT was enough by one error. But that's the thing though is that they made a naive mistake in the implementation and they were ready to go like this was ready to implement. People had downloaded IT and we're running IT like IT was a .

IT was a horrible bug .

and he was a horrible bug specifically of how I U IT was.

And while they were accusing everybody like like biton lobo people or whatever of like hydrogen development and taking a bit point whatever, they were literally trying to hide fire the development like get home and they were trying to games yeah and IT .

was like explicit IT think is actually goes all way back to fact what's hit news items is already already way into this um but and we had a couple already but this the argument that has actually consumed me more recently and why ah i've been less of out like where is super important to have told dence is just the um that the news items specifically the blocks stream opens a research center in lugano, switzerland um focusing on liquid and lighting advancements of which is actually really cool black stream of i've heard some things that they're making a pretty fix position twenty twenty five and there's I am pretty excited to see what they going to be doing.

But here's the thing is that if you have something cool to build A C T V, if you have something that's like revolutionary, that you can build the of cat, like we have, you have convenience on liquid, like you will just have them, like just build IT, just build IT, like you will get all the fireworks you need, you will get all the support if you build something awesome. And if you build your own liquid, you will have extremely minimal porting problems to then put IT on bitcoin later, none of your work will be wasted. And you'll have just shown everybody exactly what a potent and critical tool that IT is for all of us to get the future that we want, where everybody can hold their own keys.

And the whole billion people on planet ter can can be sober n and there's no government and there's privacy and all of that great stuff do IT do IT. There's nothing holding anybody back from doing IT. Lots, lots less bitching, lots more building done problems .

of and the privacy benefits, the privacy benefits of liquid or should not be like understated when you .

have like making with lighting is pretty amazing.

is the test bed that light coin was. I think for all of the things that are contentious right now, yeah that .

comes in like it's Better. And I just in .

general SE that like you have so much that you can do on liquid and they've build tools that make IT easy to work with, like there's just no reason not to build IT there. First, if with something that you hope to bring the big going because it's usable on liquid and there's a lot of tools that like I I love the uncle l on IT, it's really involved has become like a really critical piece of the whole stack.

I ve ve been on boarding people to oaklawn. Like j has a built some really cool stuff. So yeah, I think that's like that's IT.

It's like, okay, like I think there's we're done with verbal arguments. Build something. I just build something.

It's a good point, I think after this conversation and like a lot of us, just me think and I loud as I appreciate your adult munt, but it's just I really do think that and the the neither have I like it's it's just at this point this this upgrade fatigue that demonstrates ly no viable way to solve unintended consequences of you know of of folks and IT just doesn't have the ww factor.

There isn't a thing that C, T V does that makes everyone go yeah I want that like cigaret had IT should also had IT and you know like some of the most easy stuff is gonna come out with tape is going to have been IT. So but I just don't see IT for anything else. And I think the people pushing for IT, they always just Young people like in every case, they're always just Younger people that are like excited to build.

They just want the new thing instead of making realizing the actual text that we have.

Yeah what one thing mechanical you said to me are you said a long time ago not really related to convenience was I think was in an open source versus close source debate or for private or debate, you like what building you good ux stuff is hard. Um kind of developers that work for apple and stuff like that. These are guys that are doing kind of monotask coating tasks.

Um the creative coding taxes are fun. These are the things like we love to come up with new up codes and these new like brainy ax stuff, and we love to write the alpha software for IT because that's fun. Yes, I like sitting at the bar drinking a beer, drawn a picture.

You know, like this is that we do in our free time, but like actually making a product like A U T X O sharing product just gonna hard. You're going to pay developers to do so you don't want to do and you have to pay him. That mean you have to have a business model, that mean you have to have to mand.

Like that means like that the whole business aspect comes from IT. And so like with the spam stuff for the nf t stuff and stuff like that, like that has its own business model. So you're going to be able to pay developers to to build those kind of wall is like curly quickly. Um but you know the pain developers to do the hard ux stuff like new walls for U T, X, O sharing.

Where is the where? Where is the where's the alpha coming from? You know where where is the income coming from? Who are the customers that are pain for that wallet to be developed because like you know that this would be different if we saw demand for U T, X, O going through the roof right now.

But no, I just like actually if if there is a lot of demand for this kinds there, i'll granted that there is some demand to fix lighting. Definitely I I get that. But if there was like more demand for you U T X O ownership, I would probably have a different view. I be like, yeah, I we pride need to do something but I was.

yeah, we really don't need have gamma and dumb money designing.

This is the biggest point ever, which goes which just destroys the governance advocacy, I think, is that l one is cheap and l one is very, very simple to use. And I don't know the percentage, but is not great. So many people are just still leaving their coins with third party custodians.

And the reason they doing that is not because we don't have covers, they're doing IT because is just natural to them. So you can come up with the best time out reason ark of that stuff with governance, in best case in ario, you can come up with all that stuff and they still aren't going to do IT. That's just that's just a fact like a feet implicate book chain now feels in nine saturates. Alright, that's higher than .

IT hasn't for a while, but was yesterday .

most of the time. Look at that is too says of which is just like for most for most people that can afford to be into bit going even if they are not part of the west, they they can afford a couple of transactions a month if it's on, if it's costing you under a dollar to open a lightning channel. Like come on, there's nothing about adding confidence that suddenly gonna make the another billion people hop on and suddenly have biton in a sovereign. It's just not realistic, man.

There needs to be demand for IT before because the demand will probably end up being the thing that really informs what kind of solution we need anyway.

Yeah and they'll pay for the debts too. No paid for the depth to make wallets.

That point you are just highlight, Steve. Again, it's like unglamorous rought IT up because I did say IT before, I don't remember the context but it's like noster is like the best example ever of people that want to have fun creating stuff that basically works when everyone on IT is just there for the mission and wants to have a good time.

Yeah but then someone comes, someone has to ux and like dealing with like dose vaccine and stuff like that is a paid job no one wants to do. It's not fun, boring. It's a grind.

So this is why, like this is why start A S had to be like approached away IT was with like people getting salaries and charging for products and stuff like that and even staying out with like license and product keys and stuff like that because it's just, yeah, all this stuff exists. Next cloud exists, is great bit concow exists, slightness nodes exists. But if you want to to run IT outside of being a tech, you know, informed technical enthusiasts st, your average omi can't run.

This stuff is too difficult. You need someone to come along and build a bunn too, right? You can't just build.

Hey, there's a github with this inkle of linux on IT like you just need to spend four years learning how to use IT all and put IT all together and king endlessly like someone has to come along and go, alright, i'll make IT actually usable and that's a job because you just to sit there and customer support all day going, oh, right, there's a footguards and there's a foota gun there. I am sorry that's just people are annoyed that emAiling you saying this doesn't work. I need IT fixed.

I want my money back. No one's gona do stuff like that for fun. There's not sitting at a bar with know, a piece of paper sketching out a new protocol, having some fun. It's sitting there a laptop for nine hours, for seven days a week, just dealing with people complaining at you.

And i'm just like no one's going to do that like for fun because it's not fun and that so I think it's just your point is right, like someone's good and building the times as gambling is also very compelling and a lot of fun like so people are gonna do that is high time preference is fun. You make a lot of money building like good ux wallets with no foot guns and take a fight of governance. IT will be fun for a minute until you start get into the edge cases where you have to stop people from hurting themselves. And then it's just like, i'm moving on to another project. I let this.

the new super test.

neat. IT, you, you.

you test?

Rong, yeah, I love. I ve upcoast guys. But there is no chance that after one of these C, T, V stuff gets implemented, that they're going to a like not think about another upcoast you like they're not going like, okay, i'm going to transition to the the sales, the tax support department and like they're just not can .

do like men even so to I had like limited ability just around and make IT just grind and make IT work like a lot of people like he had to do that for the good of the project. Another thing is just he wasn't that kind of guy like he wanted to invent a new monetary paradise would be like, here you go and it's like he does all this stuff and see you later have fun with IT and then you just get people like look that sit there for years being like no IT has to do this and like, you know slowly catalog ging everything and making IT work ultra conservative attitude and it's it's just necessary and someone's going to do IT and is so thankless and no one wants is .

not fun treatment. Thankless and so rare to have somebody who even cares yeah you .

know what IT takes our looking .

or takes never that's all we .

have you know capitalism .

and entrepreneurship know it's like you had a baby able to do the boring stuff and know Michael sailor makes this point a lot is like you guys aren't understanding like when the open source um idealistic stuff stops and when the um entrepreneurial aspect uh kicks and you know I think sailor would say like this scale in second layer that needs to be an entrepreneur activity. People need to fail. People need to lose money like that. That's a free market thing. The scale and aspect, and I don't know, I totally believe that, but i've think there's something to that .

now it's definitely a good point. It's I think again though, it's kind of bad in any direction. That's the ultimate conclusion of this debate, I think, is that if we don't scale with something like convenance being you know in in the best scenario that you can imagine with like all that stuff, if we don't do that, then scaling bitcoin literally just means third party custodians because like kind of by default, IT has to mean .

and the best k scenario is like e cash, basically.

which is not is not super back .

or with a of, but all that does is distribute the problem, like because right now all our third party is government. Like government is the third party for all money, and that is the end, all bal. So the idea would be that we could decentralize this down until like one hundred and fifty thousand in the ties read all across the globe, and you can connect to anyone. But IT doesn't solve the third party problem, that just a good reservedly distributes that against the government and central bank as the only and and all third parties of all money, which is what we have now.

which is a lot Better. We shouldn't turn on knows about about IT IT .

would I would hopefully mean the competition keeps things mostly on, yes.

IT just means that the scale of problems is naturally going to be less IT won't be society destroyed problems. They will be bank and community and town. I get look like the sides of the problem. Typically what IT will collapse. But for IT gets to a stem c we're all after problem, which is what we're all sitting on right now.

If you look at the internet like we're alone, we're well not thankfully not as much anymore, but we've all been on very silly ode social media networks, right? And and as the problem has gotten worse, like we've looked for and people have been building alternative you things and so in may be the bit more adoption has to go a little bit in the wrong direction in order to for there to be enough motivation to like build the thing that you know people really .

need to sport really yeah ah you know let's do a let's .

do a bit of a lightning .

round here because I want to hit there's a number of difference like news items that don't require a whole lot of time. But I think they're important to bring out one of is just the strike has launch becoming ottawa s and basically going back to the whole U T, X O thing is I really think every, every, every service that does be going, especially that does D C, A like order withdraw should be a thing everywhere.

And I guess it's it's pretty common, but IT seems to be only common in bitcoin circles. Um but I don't know that I like me. Kudos to them to finally doing IT but like is .

IT out which you also are relighting.

That's a good question in that work. I don't with both twelve, you could generally do that now or wet with lightning address and stop. You can do that now, but that require someone else to have a lighting address, which is usually what strike provides to people. So that's typically a custodial tool. I feel like lighting .

addresses socks anyway because DNS sucks belt twelve dozen suck and I know jack malis is like trying hard to push the envelope on that um but yeah I didn't thinking about .

whether that was actually lightning or not. I think it's just a big one address. I think it's just like you punched in U T, X O like Better if you .

could give them an x pub that could eat through the addresses.

Now we cool a whole lot of people talk about how that is like a huge privacy problem, but it's like did you can make like x club and ah I go back that gets into technical details so someone .

has to know like how to do that to make IT than bitcoin is not private man. Like it's not like if you want to work, you want, I don't know, it's strictly Better.

Well, now IT, now that we have, so does this work? Like, okay, so if you have since we have and I should work, if you you could give them. I mean, I don't if they support this, but here you give them like a liquid address, and then they could use the liquid, delightful bridge to send you, to send you liquid.

This is the way, like, this is the the bull bitcoin method that I really wanna like. Champion, first off, they have, like if they are not just also withdraw that you can't buy until we already have a method to pay you.

right?

I love that. It's amazing and also introduces way less regulatory risk.

by the way. But is that like you can use you can you can give IT to somebody else. You have to use your wallet or whatever.

So yeah like even with fia and b bitcoin, he put on like a hundred grand to buy bitcoin, they'll take IT, but they it's written there that if you don't spend this on bitcoin, we are going to send that back to you within next time period like we do not want to to become custodian, which is amazing because yeah, becoming a custodian means basically that's when it's all the you know the euro and samples in the DNA .

samples and all that becomes requite they're sending in your exam is the my god, I have so many of these little cups. I've had to do that .

so many times. I really twenty three and me and p twenty .

three and p twenty three .

and I don't know. It's a good thing well done to I like jack man is generally I think he's like that favor bitcoin mainstreet media news guy every time he goes on there .

he's so inappropriate and the I T V, I T V division and any .

complaint or whatever you have about strike, like I understand somebody that could could be like he's not he's not building something awesome and not trying to build what like exactly what bitcoin needs. Like he he seems to put themselves in a really good spot and like T.

T, L, C.

Standard here, guys, come on and .

he's just he's still humble. Bitcoin just hanging around like to have been a bit like just absolutely like, I love that guy. Honestly, I have so much time for.

And next new item we've got car right in the U. K. Has advised a new pension steam to allocate three percent of portfolios of pension on portfolios to bacon.

Why so barish? Why so barrier?

right? Three percent. Come on, man. But there's something really interesting here because I kind of felt that would start in the last cycle and IT didn't really like I think everybody was still too nervous to get in. And you know, institutions are so slow moving. But it's going to be really interesting because I think it's gona get to a point very, very quickly where pinchin schemes, retirement things that don't allocate some percent are going to beat the ones that are the should I work with you and and I think that shift is gona happen really quick. And it's gonna be interesting.

Wasn't there a state that they put pension funds or something just, I mean, before this last run up, like, so they should be sitting. What is like.

I can look through my last series of notes. Maybe there one, there was the top, or maybe you had like, this was something, was .

something like, I don't know why I want to say, say hi. I don't know why I would .

be E I remember something my mind bad about that I wonderful was just a proposal and like nothing concrete has surprised with IT but I don't .

know be interesting because they've done really well if they mean like that was been months ago yeah .

like and IT wasn't many months ago that the Price was well. In fact, I posted in the audio notes one of the, you know, I have a bunch of money set aside of the ot, set aside for the construction still. And I put an irresponsible amount of IT in the bitcoin when IT dipped down to fifty to fifty and I almost forgot about IT like I just can't move IT to my this is my stack wallet for this year kind of thing.

Um and uh somebody I think he was like I think was big on pop. Maybe I don't know, somebody in the audio notes went up and found that is just from August. This is like living in a long ago and found the post and then reposted IT like down to the by in the change.

But you feel good about this now, don't you? And I was like, I do. I do feel really good about IT.

Thank you. That made my day. That made me monday because I totally, we're on about IT. Uh, uh.

another item maybe is a microstrip gy. I ended up buying some 嗯， because in canada you have these retirement accounts and it's basically like if you earn money, government will take IT all unless you put some of IT in in a retirement account and invested, then you can just deduct that of the income you apparently made. So i'm like, all right, i'll just put a bunch of my income in microstrip gy stock.

And even if he goes to zero, it's Better than IT going to government. yes. So this this works like i'm going to do this and maybe IT goes up a bunch of genius invested, but i'm just like it's i'm just gonna do this like I can't buy bitcoin with IT because he doesn't work that way.

I have to buy some stupid blue pill version of bitcoin like microstrip gy. But maybe then I start, maybe he's right though. Maybe we do get the whole infinite money glitch thing that he's doing really is worth less money and to buy bit going while people still take feet for IT like maybe IT works.

I would just think IT ends when we start pricing stocks, like when we start pricing the the risk reward ratio to a an investment in bitcoin, when when we compare against like what the the the cage or whatever in bitcoin is going to be, what's what's a ready to return every year? Okay, that will be .

the basis the government .

that will .

be the the government specifically targets IT for being .

like some sort of finances scheme you to bore to borrow the money in order to buy good money. That's legal.

why? That's illegal. Well, that that was fun. Buying some microsoft and I love IT because is all tax free. So facility a profit is an a retirement account. Don't think I pay tax on IT.

Yeah, IT stays there. Yeah, you're good. That's awesome. I find this kind of funny. So detroit plans to accept big one encysted to for taxes by mid twenty twenty five, supported by paypal. And there is something really funny about like us of city that in such horrible condition being like will take big coin.

take what's the worst check going? What's the worst check? Like just will take B S V this point will to say anything .

like please, she's give us some thing. It's money to the the. Uh the I not this not a mayor who was IT I I Cameron the guy from legal a who has dung like serious work in making IT so that the whole city can accept the coin um for payments for you permits taxes like basically everything.

And they like built this serious integration with their uh banking partner. And it's like super simple IT. Basically it's those processes zero difference from the Normal process except you can just select and then they're going going to an address for I pay, I think over lighting as well.

And then then he did this long presentation on IT, and he said, this is basically everybody. Anybody in swift, any municipality in swift survey, can basically pg into this with nothing because of all the work they've done. But then if you started about how like unless they received like five hundred dollars total, like since since they started, like it's like the almost no payments, so whatever, because they just nobody wants to like that.

You think about like the phase we are in, like who wants to pay the government bitcoin? You know, like why would you want to do that in an addition to the fact that you then basically announced to them that this is your address? Like even like with my accounting and stuff that I do like, I don't I don't tell everybody like what a list address says. I listen dollar amounts for what the value is, do my taxes or whatever, but i'm not going to give my I am going to give my wallet, you know. And if I pay them directly, that immediately becomes a problem.

Wasn't nine E U, think for a while? Or they like you have to print all of your bit going addresses and tell us all of them yeah and those like immediately people like going to you my entire every single generation of all address from this ten to the forty .

numbers like good book force .

to dark at the end. And we started out and go backwards, find out .

work into .

i'm rolling forward .

state on a four cake bite, rose. I that with the misery of a bit kind node in rolling forward state, it's it's like when there's a glitch in the chain data and IT has to like reprocess the chain and it's that goes on forever is of that .

you can compare against. And in the role, the the the roll back or whatever the like, you now have the entire thing to check against. So the the amount of data that you have to process against is just like that much a larger as both the ibd is that you can just like like anch forward and only reference the very last thing .

because you're only did IT yeah that's grow grow sucks and is a pipe I need this to work for a live stream on doing on monday um good luck and is wednesday good last so I want to block eight hundred and thirty two thousand two hundred .

and .

seventy five and you go forth and you d like this is the thing like the bigger D B cash you have and I B D the worst IT is if you accidentally interrup the process, like if you unGraceful ly shut down, going when you had like an eight gig bite cash of U T X O, yes, screw. Like the irony is you had the big cash to get through ibt faster. So yeah it's just yeah that's .

the funny thing about about like the initial thinking or what I was like the first five hundred thousand blocks take like twenty minutes. But then then you get the block six hundred thousand and they start like taking more .

and time like and I hurt yeah man, I am thinking on a pie five on a number i've got ta use for demonstration too. And I mean, I started that last night and about to load IT. Now I bet it's probably almost finished.

Actually, i'm eighty eight percent of the way through. Like pi five with N V M E is so quick I can do IT in like forty, forty hours or something. H .

well, crazy. Um this is a big one that I am pretty stoked about. I don't think we know exactly what IT means quite yet um but a judge is just ruled not specifically in the tornado cash case but in A A sister partner takes or something um is as just ruled the tornado cash is to be removed from the opa sanctions list that is basically not legal for them to have the code and the software be something that is sensible that is that is restricted and that you can't exford IT um but what's crazy about this so i'll be what lower etes and the rage has said about this.

This is usually good news for anyone developing privacy software, and we will likely have a positive impact on roman storms trial where it's debated whether the court may criminally charge the developers of the software. So that's basically the foundation of the case itself is saying the because they have created it's kind like make of listing photography as and uh and then the people who created A C photography itself are arms dealers but if you if the judge says that you know cartography is not munnion will then how how is your trial against arms deal is gonna you know um so that's a big step in the right direction um and um hopefully hopefully that means I mean there there will probably still be a bunch of back in fourth on this. But hopefully means good things for basically the both the trial for alternative cash but also just samari wallet for um basically all the privacy software in general because it's it's kind of setting a precedent that will know you can do that like you've overstep your authority and you cannot criminalize the software um which is a pretty good barrier for developers.

What where is this stuff being .

being tried with circuit? 这是 pressure。 This is all in the E, U, if i'm not mistaken.

I don't remember. Perhaps congress will update I E, E, P, A. Maybe maybe tornado cash is actually in the U. S.

IT feels to me like there needs to be like a dramatic overhaul. One like no one has any idea what a money transmit is like, yeah, server that processes payments out of money transmit wow, you know, where's mercury in the sky these day? I mean, it's like there we have absolutely no clear guidance over like whether you are um involved in monetary .

trands action.

We need like some R F K style just huge overhaul above all of this framework.

If there is a time to get IT, IT will probably be in this administration just because there so many people fighting to to try to get some sort of a concrete definition to this crap. But like most of the rules and stuff are created in the eighties, like before, the internet was even a thing like. So of course, it's gna sound, the analogue e and it's going be vae when yeah like dotie an even bills around the understanding of what the held the internet is.

right?

You know IT reminds but even even beyond even beyond that they I mean like they pass the health care bill. So did you can find what was in IT? I mean, like they build the you with all sorts of vague ies on purpose so that they can attach and build other structures, know on top of them like it's is there so they can stop you when they you're doing something they don't like or the threatens .

s there it's intentionally vague and then president gets set in various legal cases that they just self IT becomes a self referential thing that, well, this guy rote some code and he went to jail, but that guy rote some cold. He didn't so like I don't like to me it's just adam gibson and the summer and the wob bii guys all right.

IT seems to me that the was sob guys did get in some heat in america, but not anywhere else that i'm gibsons just fine. Uh, and the summer I guys got absolutely just buried under just the weight of you tyranny. And IT seemed to me basically the summer I got in trouble. Mainly for the way they marketed rather than anything else. Because he doesn't doesn't do anything that these other .

implementations don't.

Same stuff like, hey, if you are russian oligopoly, you can come and wash your money through here and stuff. And it's just like I think that's actually what provoked the authorities to go in after them. I don't think it's about the design of the product or anything. I think about the about .

the intent that or they're saying that the intent um but I think their defense is that like it's just edge marketing, like we're just we're just doing that because like anybody can use IT, like we can control who or where any of this thing is this designed this way. And so we're just doing the thing that's politically edgy right now to get attention, which worked in the wrong way.

Well, I don't know how to to reconcile the whole thing and why some people are get in trouble and others on. I don't know why that is, and I can only come up with that reason or I think it's just .

because everything they illegal and just have to pick and choose who they go after. Like the whole three felonies a day thing, like we all commit three felonies a day. It's just about they want to go after who makes them, who embarrasses them, who looks like our criminal. And so we just find to think that they're guilty of and the everything so vague and there are so many hundreds of thousands of pages of war, it's just find one just just find a way that they're y're doing something illegal. They'll find IT know, hey, um I gotto run soon.

But I didn't have one thing I thought about that I am interested in you guys opinion on, I thought was funny. So I read that sent the alumina bill about the us. Strategic reserve, whatever in.

I actually read the part where they talked about custody. And just like you are saying, looked like this legislation was written in the eighties. IT really looked like this bill was just copy paste of the gold reserve, IT said. The big court will be stored in strategic， diverse warehouses across the country. Like, did you guys read .

that I had enough? yes.

Who the like?

What would be the process for changing over key signatures like they just said? Like, so well, I sorted storage facilities. Like, good. Every okay, was had that on purpose.

like bricks will be stacked five high light and wide.

But I mean, the alone is is smart. Like, but was IT written in this way because he thought this is how SHE SHE could get IT past. Like if you start talking about key holders, your your really .

everybody yeah yeah .

you think that's why you did IT that's .

a very possible is that there they have to think about IT in like which bank at which of all is that gonna be and and that the the specificity of IT being the key is probably just bad. You know, specificity and the details are whatever maybe maybe that's why it's funny .

though are these bills they typically written in a kind of like parallel english where it's like legally where nothing means what you think IT means no or sans, but may be maybe IT .

collapsed on windows X P H. Man.

you know, IT the unpatched version, like the one with all the exploits. I mean, the funny thing I found about that was like some little lead to route, some expose, like the governments gona make attacks and they are going to use that to build the strategic bit on reserve. And I was like, oh my goodness, no.

And i'm like, so I wrote this like sarcastic tweet that was just like I had just had a rumor that the U. S. Government plans to use extortion and taxation to get this to build this statement reserve and ever responded to IT.

Like, what do you show up? And I like, wait a minute, do you guys what is only posting? You think governments get anything? There is no other.

Like, just like, oh yeah, no, it's not get paid for that shifty did a mcDonald. Like is that how they're funding IT? Like they're going to go to get jobs.

Are you going to the government but the governments addressing your minor?

I'll do IT if they give me a Green card, my god, are you yeah.

I was about we should just eat the here I have a bunch of all the news items, but I think i'm just gonna run through them in the ultra to this just so we can bullet point if anybody is is curious because there are some interesting things to to mention, but most of its just kind of general stuff like, oh, more people are putting in a strategic reserve, more people are allocating to IT. So it's just kind of like it's a bullet point, you know.

Um so I think I think of ending here, we we had a pretty good one. Thank you guys for joining me. Ah thank you guys. You're communal .

because all started worse than any .

I we're going to I sort got if I just have to do this on the APP for now I don't even I don't care. I'm just so dead up with a river side on this computer. I don't know what is happening, but we're going to have a different solution. And i'm going to i'm sorry, i'm probably going to make you all try IT, uh, here in the next seven days.

Keep working good. What was wrong did you? We do not able to gain to the key.

Chater riverside made my computer each year. I could not get into key on my back. So like IT might just be key.

I just need a good find, a good way, digit record and key. That might be the solution, but we will talk. Steve, thank you for join me.

Yes.

mechanic jeff, great.

Have a good day.

ham. Let you guys. All right, IT is time for the lightning round. We are going to go through as many of these bulbs. Ts, that we did not get to really quick.

So first boom do to telecoms EMS and c house mesler pilot bitcoin mining to manage surplus energy in germany. So anybody who's been keeping up on at germany Green plan and climate friendly plan is kind of falling apart. They're having an energy disaster. essentially. They're having huge Spikes in.

One of the people who came on very recently who does a ton of the management on the grid said they are literally on the edge of blackouts during Normal days, just because there's like a week of like no wind and not very good sun. So this is actually a really good sign for them having to basically been knee on the narrative and actually do something that matters, something that gives a practical real result and will actually baLance out there grid over the long term. So this is really interesting.

And to see that become Normalized in a country or location and culture that has been so vainly trying to be virtue signaling at the cost of doing, literally doing things that are damaging or stupid to see them kind of have to backtrack or change their tune. And notice that mitt coin is actually an important piece of this puzzle that's interesting. Bullet point argentine's central bank host a live Victorin mining art exhibit, a live art exhibit I didn't want and titled art artificial intelligence in the future of the economy that kind of cool millia seems super on board with the whole bitcoin thing.

So interesting development, the argentine central bank is showing off decline, mining an an art exhibit who knew bullet point new market capital launches biton clattered ed loan strategy explained by their CEO on cmc is just interesting seeing people starting to get into that market. And one thing that I have known personally with conversation that i've had with people who are in the biton loan industry is one of the big problems wasn't actually about bitt coin. The problem was about getting liquidity on the fight side because people were afraid the deal seems too good to be true over clatter zed loan, great interest rate for them and really great time periods and basically the security of the entire set up seemed too good to be true.

And then as soon as they hear that we're bitcoin, they pick up and run and they go buy their bonds for four percent that are losing money. So it's actually a really, really good thing to actually see more capital flow and see people start to the risk. The idea of being associated with pick in their minds and not something that this specific cycle probably will change dramatically, which would be good because if you want to get a bitcoin loan, your interest rate may very likely go down in the near future because people will be less concerned and less associating.

The fact that bitcoin is just a nonsense thing that is only a scam and is dangerous and a scary. The more that that fades into the background, the more of those sorts of financial instruments will be available to people. Bullet shanghai court affirms a bitcoin ownership legality under chinese property laws, the south china morning post reported on this.

And that's interesting. Just because china has been a largely don't even know the rules of the set up is kind of like a hands off the band mining. They sort of stop caring about IT.

It's kind of interesting to see IT slowly make incremental steps back in the other direction. Bullet polish presidential candidate slow ameer promises a strategic bitcoin reserve that one was a twitter post at just kind of showing that, oh, i'm a different candidate. You should vote for me.

Let me appeal to people. It's become a talking point to differentiate yourself. Doesn't mean that they're gona have a big one reserved.

But IT is interesting nonetheless that IT is entering itself into all of the presidential conversations. Bullet pennsylvanian proposes investing ten percent of its seven billion dollar treasury in the bitcoin via the bitcoin strategic reserve act. Now not vote IT on.

We do not know what the outcome of this is. But the interesting thing is, the last october, the pennsylvania house approved a related bill known as the bitcoin rights bill, which protected the right to self custody and digital payments. So something to keep an iron, and that will be big news if that actually goes through a bullet.

Ssc chair gary ginza or announced resignation effective january twenty and twenty twenty five. He's just running because he doesn't want to get fired. Bullet bitcoin hacker ela licked and stein sentence to five years for a three point six billion dollar bit point theft.

Ross old bricks got two life sentences plus forty years, and he didn't steal anything for anybody. It's remarkable that just undermining the state's rules peacefully will get you a hundred times the sentence as stealing almost four billion dollars from innocent people. That shows you where their priorities are.

Bm, now let's get some bad news. Bullet point crypt o CEO. Dean shirker was kidnapped in toronto and released after a one million dollar ransom payment.

Stay safe. Felt there, guys. Conceal Carry bullet. Russia bans winter cyp to mining in siberia, north causes and occupied ukraine due to energy shortages.

Looks like that advertisement about how great their energy sources were. Not so much bullet. U. S. Congress urges stricter regulations, zone cyp done mixers like toronto cash, citing this use for illicit activities. They turn to squeak this through with fencing.

And as the rage says, they still don't know how software works, and they are appealing to Janet yelling in the treasury, trying to say that mixers should have strict reporting requirements on exactly how everything is mixed, which is hilarious. Why would you want? What's the, what's the point? What you're going to K, Y, C to mix your coins, you're gonna report everything to get privacy, did you should have by the faul, because it's a basic right.

Not can happen, guys. Nobody y's, nobody's gone to do that. And our wonderful members of congress come with a couple of very expected members.

This is seven members of congress who are leading to janie yelling infants to do something about the all of terrible criminals, shown castine, bill Foster, Stephen lunch, David got. And then you will clear with the second other guy, joys IT. Bet or bet, bet.

I say that and of course, brad shermans in the bunch, of course, is bullet blocker ft. Focus to bitcoin in mining and bitchy. So block has shifted over to mining and the big key wallet, which I actually have not gotten to use yet.

So I can't say much about IT, but they have shut down title and the web five projects, and that includes TBD, which we've mentioned recently. I think i've talked about IT in the episode with myanma from primal, and I really kind of think it's because jack dorsey is super down the master rabbit hole and doesn't really feel like IT needs to be reinvented. I think it's because nast's winning.

Just say, just say in ballet point, block introduces proto, a sweet of bitcoin mining tools and products is kind of the same ballet point, but it's really interesting the idea of simplifying and maintain ate production zing, really easy biton mining tools and products, basically doing what they did, a bit key to bitcoin mining. That's a really interesting prosy c is kind of like data with ocean, is making IT easy to use, making IT simple to run, I think is a really valuable thing to have an ecosystem bullet biton fog Operator romance sterling gov. Sentenced to twelve point five years for money launder ing.

Conspiracy and they hit him with three hundred and ninety five million dollars in for future for money because the mixer next four hundred million dollars. I don't think they understand how this thing works. I unfortunately don't know much about the case, and I really hope they appeal, because this sounds ridiculous.

And another great example, the bit the next hacker got five years for stealing three point six billion dollars. And roman, who there is a strong evidence to suggest he didn't have anything to do with bitcoin fog, and he simply used IT. But even if he was the Operator of bitcoin fog, doing nothing more than offering the privacy as a service to other people, got him twelve point five years longer than the person who stole four billion dollars from a bunch of innocent people.

Again, priorities, the government hates you. They do not care about your safety. They do not care if somebody steels something from you. They do not care if people kill or rape you.

They care if you threatens their ability to be in charge and their control and the perception of their power and authority over everything else. That's what they care about. The government is not your friend.

Bullet, the FBI rated poly market ceos home, the dog investigates alleged platform violations, which is the bedding market, the trump was going to win. That's actually really funny. That whole thing is kind of interesting as something that might be worth to want to show about.

No bullet blab launchers, pleb dev and education platform for bitcoin developers. Really cool to see just more motivation like the black guys a lot, and a stronger push for getting more development, getting more eyes and getting more people working on. And in bitcoin, pretty dupe that wraps IT up.

Ladies and gentleman, I told you there was a lot that we didn't get to, but those are all the big ones for the month that I think we're worth talking about. And getting a little bit of reference on the election was clearly the big one. And I think I will have I think IT has had a big impact on the Price and the perception where bitcoin is going when IT comes to jurisdictional safety, so to speak, a really big month.

I really appreciate the round table guys joining me as always and going through what we could get through in the time we had available and fighting with the technical difficulties that we had for this episode. And I will get you only next epsom of bitcoin oval. I hope you guys had a wonderful, thankful ving.

I guess this will come out after thanksgiving. So will you'll be hearing this in hindsight? I have a great holiday. Don't forget to subscribe.

Don't forget to check out fold and thank you to everyone who supports the show and what I do, and i'll catch the next one. I'm guys won. This is on and until next time, everybody, diageo guys.