10/21/24: Arab Americans SHOCK MSNBC, Scahill Confronts MSNBC On Gaza, Sinwar Video Released, Israel Preps Iran Strike
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We also want to just take a quick look at how Kamala Harris is bearing with a group that really could be pivotal, especially in the state of Michigan, which is Arab American voters. There was recently a focus group that was convened and wasn't

wasn't great for Kamala Harris because every single panelist said they will not vote for Kamala Harris and that at this point, given her support for Joe Biden's policies vis-a-vis Israel's genocide in the Gaza Strip, there is nothing she could do at this point that would win them back. Let's take a listen to how that went. Who was voting for Donald Trump in 24? It's possible. It's possible. Yeah. It's definitely not Biden or Harris. That's for sure. Who's voting for Kamala Harris here?

Absolutely no. No. Not possible. There's nothing she can do or say for us to change our mind. Who's voting third party in 2024? Good chance. So Jill Stein. Mm-hmm. Slightly. It's also a possibility that some of us will just abstain from voting altogether. But we do know that that's not the best political strategy, you know? Why are you voting for Donald Trump?

Because my main goal is to get someone who is actively funding a genocide out of office. Is your vote for Donald Trump a vote endorsing Donald Trump, or is it a vote against Kamala Harris? Against Kamala Harris. Donald Trump has said he will reinstate the Muslim ban. He said that last time. He's said that he wants Netanyahu to finish the job.

Donald Trump said a lot of things his first time around that terrified me. The campaign that the Democrats ran was that Donald Trump hates us. I felt safe, though, in the country when Trump was in office. I don't feel safe right now with Kamala in office. So, I mean, that to me speaks more. Pretty stunning. And we've seen polling.

among Arab Americans in Michigan and other swing states that suggest a majority of them may, in fact, vote for Jill Stein. Jill Stein. That's right. And you've seen the Democrats actually launch their first ever ad campaign specifically against Jill Stein. So, you know, it's not...

surprising necessarily to hear these voters say, yeah, there's nothing she could do. It's too much. It's too long. She had a chance to separate herself from this policy. And at every opportunity, she's done the opposite. At every opportunity, she's chosen to signal, no, I will do exactly what Joe Biden did. So if Democrats lose Michigan because of this voting bloc,

They have no one but themselves to blame. Like, don't blame Jill Stein. Don't blame third parties. Don't blame Donald Trump even, you know. You have yourselves to blame for, number one, backing an absolutely immoral policy. And number two, you know, just completely, you know,

ignoring what was a massive movement against this policy and including huge numbers of activists on the ground, including a massive amount of energy, including if you just look at the polls,

Overwhelming majority of people want certainly a ceasefire, but also to withhold weapons from Israel to end this horror that we've all seen in our social media feeds every day. So I'm glad that they talked to these voters and I'm glad Democrats will have to look at that on their favorite network and understand that you don't get to lecture these people about who they're gonna vote for. But in reality, what happens? They're just gonna run ads about how Jill Stein is bad.

I mean, the Stein campaign, this or the anti-Stein campaign might be the most vicious that I've ever seen it. There's a New York Times hit piece out this morning. There's the Democratic ads. They've got Democratic activists now actively like trying to smear her every single day on the timeline. And this is exactly why. But as you said, it's actually on Kamala. If you look at the way that she even talks about the issue, here she is being asked in Detroit about Israel.

Palestine, about Gaza, about message to Muslim voters. Take a listen. How risky is it that you could lose the election? Well, it is undeniable that it is something that everyone is aware of what is happening there. I speak publicly all the time about the fact that there are

so many tragic stories coming from Gaza. And of course, the first in this phase of everything that has happened, the first most tragic story is October 7, and what happened that day, and then what has happened since. And I think what's critically important as we look at this moment is one, acknowledging the tragedy of what has happened in Gaza in terms of the

extraordinary number of innocent Palestinians who have been killed and taking that seriously and speaking truth about that. In addition, of course, to what I said about what happened on October 7 in terms of 1,200 innocent Israelis being slaughtered, women being horribly raped. And then fast forwarding to today with the killing of Senwar, uh,

This creates an opening that I believe we must take full advantage of to dedicate ourselves to ending this war and bringing the hostages home. I don't know if he caught that, everybody else, but what did she say? The first and most tragic thing that happened was October 7th.

If you're a Muslim voter, you're hearing that in Detroit. Like, what are you exactly—if Gaza is your number one issue, like, what exactly are you supposed to take away from that? I mean, we're talking about a significant number of voters who literally have family members who are— In Detroit, yeah. Directly impacted, you know, who may have literally lost family members. And, you know, maybe I shouldn't harp on this, but it just really—

displays to me the outrageous double standard that she has never, to my knowledge, said anything about the proven, documented, systematic use of rape by the IDF against Palestinian detainees, for which there is vastly more evidence than that of systematic rape on October 7th. And I know these are uncomfortable things

to say, but that's just the fact and the reality. And, you know, that narrative has been used over and over again by her and so many others to justify everything that has come after that I think is important, even as it is uncomfortable, to call it out once again and, you know, to point out on the other side, actually there is

multiple, even the Israelis themselves at least attempted to arrest some IDF members for their rape of a Palestinian detainee. We have multiple independent reports suggesting this is not a one-off. This was a systematic policy of abuse within this effectively concentration camp that they have set up. And, you know, so I know a lot of

Listen, I think the voters who said there's nothing she could do at this point, I believe them. And I think that that's perfectly understandable position to take. And I can or others can say till we're blue in the face, Trump would be worse. And I think that's true. Miriam Madison is one of his top donors.

roughly $100 million. She wants to just completely annex the West Bank. Sark, you were pointing out, Israelis are very clear on who they would rather have as president of the United States. It's like 68% say they would prefer Donald Trump. Bibi Netanyahu, very clear that he would prefer Donald Trump on the off chance that Kamala Harris actually did something different than Joe Biden. But

I think all of that amounts to not a lot when you're talking to people who really care about this, you've been watching this, or may even have a direct personal stake in the region. Yeah, like that woman who she was like, look, I'm just voting against that person and I want to punish them. So that's what I'm going to do.

I mean, that's a perfectly understandable position. You know, like you just said, you can say to you like, until you're blue in the face, as you said, like, well, if it's different, et cetera, but that's, you know, that's a different way of thinking, especially if you've got personal stakes. So she's got real issues. We did mention this about Elon. Let's put this up on the screen. This is currently going around a,

funded PAC by Musk is currently micro-targeting Muslim people in Michigan and Jewish people in Pennsylvania with opposite messaging about Kamala Harris using zip code targeting. One on the left says Kamala Harris stands with Israel. That's to Muslim voters in Michigan, to Jewish voters in Pennsylvania saying two-faced Kamala Harris stands with Palestine, not our ally Israel. That is crossed out. Wish that one were true.

That's funny. Be a little more two-faced, Kamala. Let's see it. Yeah.

Yeah, I mean, it's obviously a deeply cynical strategy, but it also reveals that Elon Musk, at least his PAC, believes this is an effective direction and an important fissure within the Democratic coalition and are doing what they can to try to exploit it. Yeah, I don't think it's funny because it's actually probably more resonant on the Muslim side.

part but all the data that we have right now is that you know american jews are overwhelmingly democrats voted for like 60 or so almost 70 percent for joe biden last time yeah i have not seen a single scrap of like large-scale sample data that outside of like bill ackman and yeah like rich jews like work in finance that there's been any sort of grand realignment it's well it's trump

Trump thinks of Jews in the stereotypical way that like Democrats circa 2016 were thinking about Latinos and black voters of like, oh, you're brown. Immigration must be your number one issue. Or, oh, you're black. Like criminal justice reform must be the only thing that you care about. He thinks the only thing Jewish voters should care about is Israel. Right. And that's I mean.

It is anti-Semitic to think, first of all, to associate every Jew with this out-of-control genocidal state is, in my opinion, anti-Semitic. And number two, just to collapse any large demographic group down to like a single issue, like, oh, you're one of those people. This is what you care about, is gross and, you know, and...

I think, in my opinion. So, you know, which I also said when it came to Democrats stereotyping the same way. So, yeah, he's he's, of course, wrong. And when you look at the polls, the majority of American Jews want to cease fire. Quite a large number also, you know, hate Bibi Netanyahu, by the way. The greatest supporters of Bibi Netanyahu by religious group in this country are not American.

American Jews, they are American evangelicals who support Bibi Netanyahu and whatever he wants to do. They want the end times. Part Blanche. Yeah. So, you know, this is part of why Donald Trump's coalition is very aligned on the issue of Israel. They're very pro-Israel, pretty much across the board. There's a very marginal dissent.

And, you know, their critique is that Kamala and Joe Biden have not done enough, have not given Bibi enough of a blank check. That's their position. But yes, since there is somewhat of a fracture in the Democratic base, especially between Democratic elites.

and base voters, Republicans are trying to exploit that understandably as best that they can. And ultimately again, it comes down to the actual policy and Kamala's complete unwillingness to break from Joe Biden on an area.

For people who don't really care about this issue, which is a majority of Americans who aren't gonna be voting on it, she could have done herself some favors too, just by actually breaking with Biden on an issue since that's been something she's really struggled with as well, just creating some space and showing she's her own person. So it's a moral and political failure on every level is basically all you can say about it at this point.

We can't help you.

but we will find someone who can. Listen to the How to Do Everything podcast on iHeartRadio. Hey, friends. I'm Jessica Capshaw. And this is Camilla Luddington. And we have a new podcast, Call It What It Is. You may know us from Graceland Memorial, but...

Did you know that we are actually besties in real life? And as all besties do, we navigate the highs and lows of life together. And what does that look like? A thousand pep talks. A million I've got yous. Some very urgent I'm coming overs. Because, I don't know, let's face it, life can get even crazier than a season finale of Grey's Anatomy. And now here we are, opening up the friendship circle. To you. Someone's cheating? We've got you on that. In-laws are in-lying? Let's get into it.

Toxic friendship? Air it out. We're on your side to help you with your concerns. Talk about ours. And every once in a while, bring on an awesome guest to get their take on the things that you bring up. While we may be unlicensed to advise, we're going to do it anyway. Listen to Call It What It Is on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

I'm Dr. Laurie Santos, host of the Happiness Lab podcast. As the U.S. elections approach, it can feel like we're angrier and more divided than ever. But in a new, hopeful season of my podcast, I'm Dr. Laurie Santos.

I'll share what the science really shows, that we're surprisingly more united than most people think. We all know something is wrong in our culture, in our politics, and that we need to do better and that we can do better. With the help of Stanford psychologist Jamil Zaki. It's really tragic. If cynicism were a pill, it'd be a poison. We'll see that our fellow humans, even those we disagree with, are more generous than we assume.

My assumption, my feeling, my hunch is that a lot of us are actually looking for a way to disagree and still be in relationships with each other. All that on the Happiness Lab. Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. All right, let's go and move on to Israel. Israel.

So last week we brought you the news that Israel had assassinated Yahya Senwar,

That, of course, an extraordinary development. He was the leader of Hamas, especially after the assassination previously of Ismail Haniyeh, who had been the head of the political branch of Hamas. He also was the architect in large part of October 7th. So incredibly significant developments there. In the wake of that news, MSNBC...

Shockingly, one of my old friends, Eamon Moyle-Dean there, brought on our friend, Dropsite co-founder Jeremy Scahill, to talk about the significance of these events. And he really called out MSNBC on their own airwaves. Let's take a listen to that. I just want to begin by saying that as we're speaking tonight, the Israelis are waging an extermination campaign in the north of Gaza for the past two weeks.

two weeks they've surrounded the area and they've intensified it after the killing of Yaya Sinwar. No food or medicine of any kind has reached most parts of the north. I'm in direct touch. I'm in with medical officials in the north and with journalistic colleagues. I understand that at least 80 people have been killed tonight in a horrifying set of attacks on

half a dozen residential buildings. I've just gotten done seeing images from the ground where children are being shredded like meat in a butcher shop. I don't understand how any of us, whether we're journalists or not, this isn't about objectivity, how any of us can watch this genocide unfold in real time and watch the pontificating of the politicians running for president and not just cry out, "This has to stop."

I mean, this has to stop. We've looked at this. I mean, I know you've reported on the ground from Gaza. I mean, we're watching a genocide in real time, and I'm sorry, but on this network also, there are people who have promoted propaganda from Israel.

There are people cheerleading for those running for office who are lying to the American people about concern for the Palestinians. And yes, we should talk about Yahya Sinwar. But Yahya Sinwar is also in many ways the story of Gaza. You know, yes, this was a violent man, but his violence was rooted in the fact that he was born in a refugee camp.

And Israel throughout his entire life waged a war of annihilation against the Palestinians. I'm not here to defend Yahya Sinwar. I'm here to say that we can't talk about who Yahya Sinwar was or what Hamas is without talking about 76 years of colonialism, of apartheid, of mass killing, of mowing the lawn, of controlling the calories. No lies detected there. Let me just say, Eamon is such a real one for bringing Jeremy on. He's going to get in trouble for that one.

Yeah, and Jeremy, I'm quite sure that's the last time we're gonna see Jeremy on MSNBC's airwaves for quite a while. He used to be, and if you guys go and listen to the interview that Ryan and Emily did with Jeremy, he used to be a fixture on MSNBC. Rachel Maddow had him on all the time back in the era when it was the Bush era and they were all aligned and going after George W. Bush and exposing torture and all the abuses of that era. They loved to have him on. And then the moment that it was the Obama

era and Jeremy was still doing his thing and said, hey, he's increased the drone war, like pointing out the failures there. Suddenly, that was it. He was axed and he's never heard from Rachel Maddow since because he did, I think, something similar of calling out MSNBC on her program. And she expressed to him in real time, like, you can't do that. This is a problem. And then that was it for his. So I don't know if this was his first return to MSNBC since then.

That era, which would have been quite a while ago, but I, again, don't expect we'll see him back there for another maybe two decades. This is stupid. Yeah, exactly. I mean, his story, like he told with, I mean, Ryan too. Ryan was an MSNBC contributor. You guys were on there. And then at a certain point, they made a decision. They're like, this is the direction we're going. Obviously, look, it has worked, right? They are the number two cable news network. Yes, they have the oldest audience in all of cable news, 72 years old, boomer, white liberals. These are mostly people who love

But for them, like, this is genuinely shocking to see something like this. Anybody who watches our show or, frankly, who's even on the Internet, you could be a pro-Israel person on the Internet and you would still not be shocked by something Jeremy has to say. But the thing is, is that on that network and him calling them out directly on their face, I do think it has some power, you know, to hear it stated that way.

Because it's so foreign. It's such a foreign even way of thinking. That's right. That's why Ta-Nehisi Coates and his book and his interview rounds have been so significant too, is that, you know, that perspective is just mostly, almost completely absent from elite media airwaves, whether it's MSNBC, New York Times, CNN, Fox News, et cetera. So anyway, it was quite striking to see that.

Offered there. I really suspect Amon will get in trouble for Jeremy on because he already has been under quite a bit of fire. Remember after October 7th? Yeah, they took him off the air for a while. Obviously, Medi got fired for probably for his approach to that conflict, especially the aggressive way that he would question people about the conflict is probably specifically what got him canned.

possibly by the ADL people who are very influential there. So we'll keep an eye on that. At the same time, I referenced earlier that Israel, for some reason, decided to actually put out

the video of Yagya Senwar's final moments. We can put this up on the screen so we can take a look at some of this. You know, this was after he had already been part of a battle with a tank. And the IDF did not find him. You can see him sitting in that chair and it looks like his arm is, you know, popped

like potentially severed. - Yeah, the photo did show it's severed. - Yeah, it appears to look like it's partially severed. So he's basically has one arm. He uses that one arm, you'll see here in a moment, this is a drone that's surveilling him. He uses that one arm to throw a stick.

at the drone camera. And so, this video kind of dispelled some of the Israeli mythology about him. They had portrayed him really as like a rat hiding in tunnels. They also portrayed themselves as knowing exactly where he was located and saying he was surrounded by hostages in some underground bunker. And here he is actually fighting to the bitter end, throwing a stick at the drone that's sent in to assassinate him.

You know, I think that part, Sagar, I'm interested for your reaction here. You know, part is the Israelis for their domestic audience, just seeing him finished and in this, you know, in this state where he's surrounded by rubble and all the level of devastation, like for an Israeli domestic audience, this plays well. And I think that's probably Bibi Netanyahu's primary concern. Yeah, that's right.

But in terms of the global impression and even especially among Palestinians, many of whom, according to polls, had really turned on Sinwar. Yeah, because they blame him. Because they blame him in part for, you know, I think they blame Israel too. But they're like, you brought this upon us. And they bought into this idea that you're, you know, living this more luxurious life and you're hiding while we're being bombed.

This has increased a large amount of sympathy for him within the Palestinian population and bestowed on him a sort of like valor that Israeli propaganda had effectively robbed him of previously. - Yeah, I'm just struck by the difference between the US and between Israel here. Let's put this up on the screen. This is from the Wall Street Journal. It says, "In death, Hamas leader may have won wider support than when he was alive."

And there's just so many differences if you look at the way that the U.S. operated against Osama bin Laden. For example, there's a photo allegedly of bin Laden's face like split in half like a pancake or something when he was shot by those Navy SEALs and SEAL Team 6. And that was never released to the public. They made great effort to make sure that he could never be seen as a martyr or to give ISIS, which was big at that time, any propaganda or al-Qaeda. And they made...

buried his body at sea, you know, to make sure that there was never any grave that people could flock to. It was just a very different reaction. And I mean, what I would point out is people celebrated. I was there at the White House the night that bin Laden was killed. It was one of the craziest, honestly, moments of my life, just remembering what that was like, you know, for the country and for everything. It's not like people didn't celebrate and Obama didn't get the political bump that he needed, I guess, you know, if we're going to talk in crass terms. But there was also a lot of thought

about, hey, if we're gonna do this, then we shouldn't release video. We should make sure that this doesn't become like a major thing in the Arab world or for people who are radical Islamists to be able to flock around. And this was like the opposite reaction that Israel decided to pursue. You know, I would say too, even with that,

I believe the Baghdadi video was never released by Trump. So it's not like Trump, I mean, obviously a very different person than Obama in the way that he thought about things. Even he never did that whenever Baghdadi was killed. So that's just the major difference in the way that our countries look at these things. And I think probably because

We have more experience with a 20-year GWAC blowback campaign of what happened when we did try to have all these celebratory actions during the Iraq war. And we found out hard in 2005 and 2006 what that looks like. I think there's also just –

such a gulf, massive gulf between how the Israeli domestic audience consumes these things versus how the global audience consumes these things. When you look at the polling and you have the preponderance of opinion saying we weren't tough enough in Gaza and we haven't been brutal enough in Gaza.

That's why we from the beginning had this question like why are they why aren't they taking the phones of the idea of soldiers so they can stop recording their war crimes, you know, and the answer is because they actually from a domestic political standpoint. They liked the recording of the death destruction extermination war crimes. They liked it. Those soldiers that were posting these things became like, you know, heroes who were feted at these various way. Let's resettle Gaza conferences.

So the victory that's on offer to the Israeli people is one of utter annihilation. And so the more that those images of annihilation are shown to the Israeli domestic audience, the better Bibi does in the polls and the more he's able to hold on to power because that

That is the real victory that he is promising them. So I think that's part of why. I saw some people theorizing that maybe the IDF hates Bibi and so they leaked this to like undermine what he'd been saying, but I don't buy that. I think this is to feed the Israeli domestic audience who loves to see him there in the rubble in his final moments.

And, you know, the Wall Street Journal, again, to cite a very mainstream publication here and their analysis, they interviewed a number of individuals. One said one Gazan said that once they saw the footage, it changed his mind about some

Sinwar. He said it showed he was fighting until the very end. Another analyst said it makes a difference to people in the Arab world that he was above ground, that he didn't escape, that he was fighting. How and where he died also refutes the Israeli narrative of Sinwar abandoning the people of Gaza. Many people feel Israel can't pretend this is a big achievement because his killing wasn't planned or done through using intelligence. So, you know, pretty, I think it's

It's pretty revelatory, their decision to release this video and what it says about Bibi's mindset and Israeli societies. At the same time, there was, let's put this up on the screen, apparently Bibi's own house

came under attack. Israel's government said that a drone, a Hezbollah drone, targeted Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's house on Saturday. There were no casualties, but an attempted assassination here on Bibi Netanyahu. Certainly, Israel's military said dozens of projectiles were launched from Lebanon. Day after Hezbollah announced a new phase in fighting, Netanyahu's office said the drone targeted his house in the Mediterranean coastal town of, I don't know how to say this,

Caesarea, maybe? Let's go with that. Yeah, neither he nor his wife was there. It wasn't clear if the house was hit. And of course, we know from the military sensors, they will not allow you to report whether the house was hit or not. That's something they're very sensitive about, showing any damage from attacks from Iran or from Hezbollah. We can also put this up on the screen, Israel taking a significant hit in terms of one of their top ISA

IDF commanders, this is Colonel Asan Daksa. It says Lieutenant Colonel, but it was actually a full Colonel Asan Daksa, commander of Israel's 401st Brigade, killed today in what this individual describes as a precise ambush by Palestinian fighters in Jabalia.

This colonel, very significant saga because he was really in charge of that assault on Jabalia refugee camp. So that's why it's quite noteworthy that he was killed by Hamas or other aligned fighters there. Well, also a little bit of a preview. What does it look like? You've got the army. They come in, refugee camp. He was killed by an IED. So they're learning exactly the same problems.

that the U.S. forces learned in Iraq. Some of the initial reporting said that some of the IED was actually assembled with unexploded ordnance that Israel had dropped on Gaza, which again, same thing that people learned in Afghanistan. That is a

Classic play out of Afghanistan and Iraq. You can ask anybody who served over there. Like these things are very deadly and the more that they operate there and in Lebanon against Hezbollah, much more competent, you know, enemy, which has already proven the ability to strike at them effectively even hit Bibi's house.

I mean, already they have accomplished more, like better tactics against the IDF and their ability to penetrate Israeli defenses than anybody in Hamas ever could have dreamed of, you know, in the war. I'm just talking about, you know, post-October 7th. So clearly they've got a big problem ahead of them. And the Israelis are really getting a taste of what this looks like. Yeah. And finally, we don't want to lose sight of the continued, uh,

assault on Gaza. This is one of the deadliest strikes that we've had in quite a while. Let's put this up on the screen. At least 80 people killed in Israeli missile strikes on a school compound in Gaza City. 6,000 displaced people were sheltering there. It was hit

as they prepared for the morning prayers, reportedly once again caused a fire. Video from the scene, according to The Guardian, showed horrific loss of life with body parts, rubble, and destroyed furniture scattered across blood-soaked mattresses. So, you know, here we are, obviously more than a year after October 7th, and yes, Hamas was able to, you know,

to kill this colonel who was quite significant. So they have not been defeated. I don't think they're probably anywhere close. I don't have always thought that it's probably not really possible to thoroughly defeat Hamas. But Israel right back in Gaza's

city, northern Gaza, and continuing this campaign of devastation and annihilation. Also telling people once again to relocate, but in some instances shooting them as they try to flee, floating this idea of starving the population. There was a PR ploy effectively last week where the U.S.

seemed to pressure Israel to let some aid into northern Gaza. None had come in since the beginning of October. There was a photo op with 58 trucks, but all of the reports on the ground suggested that none of that actually went to northern Gaza. So that's where we are. Yep. All right, we got Ken Klippstein standing by. Let's get to it.

♪♪

Listen to the NPR Politics Podcast on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, friends. I'm Jessica Capshaw. And this is Camilla Luddington. And we have a new podcast. Call it what it is. You may know us from Graceland Memorial, but...

Did you know that we are actually besties in real life? And as all besties do, we navigate the highs and lows of life together. And what does that look like? A thousand pep talks. A million I've got yous. Some very urgent I'm coming over's. Because, I don't know, let's face it, life can get even crazier than a season finale of Grey's Anatomy. And now here we are, opening up the friendship circle. To you. Someone's cheating? We've got you on that. In-laws are in-lying? Let's get into it.

Toxic friendship? Air it out. We're on your side to help you with your concerns. Talk about ours. And every once in a while, bring on an awesome guest to get their take on the things that you bring us. While we may be unlicensed to advise, we're going to do it anyway. Listen to Call It What It Is on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

I'm Dr. Laurie Santos, host of the Happiness Lab podcast. As the U.S. elections approach, it can feel like we're angrier and more divided than ever. But in a new, hopeful season of my podcast, I'll

I'll share what the science really shows, that we're surprisingly more united than most people think. We all know something is wrong in our culture, in our politics, and that we need to do better and that we can do better. With the help of Stanford psychologist Jamil Zaki. It's really tragic. If cynicism were a pill, it'd be a poison. We'll see that our fellow humans, even those we disagree with, are more generous than we assume.

My assumption, my feeling, my hunch is that a lot of us are actually looking for a way to disagree and still be in relationships with each other. All that on the Happiness Lab. Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

Very happy to be joined this morning by journalist Ken Klippenstein, who may have just gotten himself in trouble with the FBI yet again. Ken, welcome to the show. Good to see you, man. Hey, guys. Good to be back.

So effectively, Ken, you decided to publish some leaked U.S. intelligence documents which were assessing Israel's likely response to Iran, which we're still waiting to see what they have in store. And there's been a big public debate about that. First, talk to us. Here's the piece that you posted on Substack. Israel preps for strike on Iran. Top secret leak reveals. Read the U.S. intelligence reports. The media won't publish. So there's a lot about this that is quite significant, including this.

what is actually in the documents themselves. But just talk to us a little bit about your decision to go ahead and publish these documents, which is a move that other mainstream outlets have not taken. Yeah, so I got a copy of this from my friend early on Thursday, and I thought to myself, oh, well, this is already circulating on social media. This will be up in a matter of time. And by Friday morning, I realized not only have

have the documents not been published to any major media outlet, the media had even talked about it then. And it wasn't until that afternoon, this was like more than 24 hours after it had been circulating, that Axios had the first story on it. Barack Ravid, a reporter who's very close to the White House. And what's interesting is in his report, they just describe, they're just, I call it, you know, trust us journalism. Like, here's what it says. You don't have to see it. They didn't publish the underlying story.

intelligence reports. Subsequent to that, virtually every major media outlet has now reported on it. It became impossible to ignore after the Axios story, and I published a few minutes after Axios. None of the other outlets, not one, has published the underlying intelligence report. And the reason that matters is because you're forced to sort of rely on the media's paraphrase, not just the accuracy of it, but even assuming that they have the best of intentions and they're not too close to the White House, like

I think Ravid, Barack Ravid is, but just that they would understand what the general public is interested in. And, you know, just by pure accident, maybe they don't. And I think the reporting on this shows that they don't know because they're getting key facts about it wrong. So, for example, the intelligence reports come from what's called the National Geospatial Intelligence Agency, which deals with satellite data.

imagery and analysis. It's been reported in both CNN and Reuters. I'm not making this up. You can go look it up. They mentioned this coming from the NSA, which is factually untrue. It shows you the problem with not giving people the underlying records. Media ends up repeating each other, and it becomes an echo chamber, and they're not able to check the underlying facts because nobody has the source material. Get to the source material then, Ken. What can we learn from it exactly? I just saw the write-up around what the

potential sites and all that could look like. Can you lay that out for the audience? Yeah, what this shows is that despite all the happy talk about our ironclad relationship with Israel and how we have total trust, so on and so forth, we are spying on each other aggressively.

And it's not just the satellite intelligence, it is human intelligence, spies, it is cyber intelligence. It's all sorts of different things to paint a mosaic picture of what Israel is up to because we can't take them at their word. We don't take any nation state at its word, but in the context of the conflict that you guys were just describing in the previous segment, the stakes are really high. And so it becomes important to look at not just what are the officials saying and what are they saying to us in private,

But to look at their military exercises, they were doing mid-air refuel exercises, which is what you would need to do if you were going to strike Iran, because the distance from Tel Aviv or from Israel is far enough that they couldn't make it with one fuel tanker. And so you're looking at a bunch of different characteristics, military readiness, military

special operations. This stuff is really complicated. And so it shows that we, the U.S. intelligence community, the Pentagon, is looking at every one of these domains that might be indicative of an Israeli move. And I think what this should show you is this stuff is complex and it's not as straightforward as

as perhaps Biden suggested when they asked him, they said, "Do you know about what Israel is gonna do?" He goes, "Yes and yes." There are all kinds of different factors you have to look at to try to make that judgment. And that puts us in a dangerous position 'cause it's not a straightforward question about if we know what they're gonna do or not.

The news outlets, all of them, who chose not to publish these documents, have they given any rationale for that decision? And what do you think that their rationale would be? Do you think part of it is just like when I look at these documents, you know, they require some understanding of underlying lingo, et cetera, to really make sense of them. So you have to be somewhat of an expert to really glean much information.

from them? Do you think that maybe they just have the sense like, oh, the general public isn't really going to understand these documents anyway, so we need to encapsulate for them what it is and what it means? - Yeah, well, I don't have a problem with them explaining what the significance is, because as you say, these are very technical documents. They have all kinds of notations and markings on them that are not something that the naked eye is going to-- that an ordinary person is going to know what it means. But the problem is they're getting it wrong. I mean, I just looked at the Times write-up. You could see a number of factual errors in it. And as with science--

The best thing for discourse is to have it openly so that we can check each other's errors. Nobody's perfect. Everybody makes mistakes. I make mistakes. But when you don't put that underlying record out there, then that conversation becomes difficult to have because people are going off of something that not everyone can see. So to answer your question, what was their rationale? In two cases, they were admirably frank,

mentions in, I think it was CNN's article and ABC News' article, where they say, we are not publishing the underlying documents. And in both cases, they want to step further. They said, we are not even going to quote directly from them.

What that says to me is that they're saying, oh, look how responsible we are. And that's an unhealthy place for the media to be, to see itself as an adjunct of the national security state. I don't think it means I don't care about the country that I'm publishing these things. My own view is it's already out there, guys. I mean, anyone can see it on Twitter. It's like we're engaged in this theater of acting like, oh, by withholding this, somehow we're helping the secrecy, we're helping the task

of the U.S. military, which is just absurd. So I think that all of this is an outgrowth of what I talked about last time I was on the show about the J.D. Vance dossier and the media's perception that it is deputized into some kind of national security responsibility on the part of the federal government, which I think is really unhealthy for the media to see itself as.

Yeah, I remember, you know, so when we had the Discord leaks, that was another thing. We're getting to very much what you talked about. We settled on quoting from them because I think, like you said, that's very important. At that time, there was still like some consternation around whether that would have actually like endangered troops because it wasn't as public as the one you're talking about. But as you said, if it's actually 100% out there,

it's out there, and it's not just media outlets that have it, then you're not doing anybody any favors by just toeing the line for the national security state. That's what I think is really important.

Yeah, I completely agree. And you can tell the media they just don't want to talk about this stuff. I mean, it was more than 24 hours after this thing was already circulating that we know of before they even had the first report just vaguely mentioning it. You know, my editor and I were able to verify the authenticity of it based on the source in the intelligence community within about several hours. And, you know, I hope I don't have better sources than the New York Times and the Washington Post because we're in real trouble if those guys just don't have anybody. So I'm guessing they could have done this all earlier

more quickly, but it seems like there was only any motion after my story and Axios' story came out and it sort of became untenable to pretend it wasn't happening anymore. But this view that the media is separate from the rest of the public and seeing this stuff unfold on social media is just indicative of this very unhealthy self-image that I think that the press has.

Yeah. Let's talk about a little bit about where these documents came from. We can put F2 up on the screen. The U.S. apparently investigating the leak of these documents. And, you know, I also think that this reveals a little bit, too, because it's obviously not that The New York Times and Washington Post never publish leaks out of the national security state. It's just usually those leaks are authored.

Authorized leak of things that those groups want out to the public. But because you have this as an unauthorized leak, something that these agencies find to be embarrassing to put out there because it reveals what we think of these planes. It also reveals, as you said, that even with this close ally, we're still having to spend

spy on them to figure out what the heck that they're up to. Just speak a little bit to that in the response here where they're launching this investigation and try to figure out who leaked these documents and if you have any insight into how high level the individual would have to be to have gained access to these documents.

My understanding is that, I don't think this has been reported yet, is that the sense of the investigators is that this must have been a relatively low-level individual, similar to Jack Turchiera, the U.S. airman that was responsible for the Discord leaks. That's kind of the preliminary assessment right now. But certainly the view that this was an insider incident

within the US intelligence community. I've seen a lot of speculation about where this might have come from. I mentioned before some of the errors in reporting. I've seen again and again, it asserted that the possibility that this was from an Iranian hack, which is absurd because these are top secret documents which live on a system called JWICS, the US military intelligence system, which is air gapped

So by definition, it couldn't have been hacked. It's not connected to the internet. And that's something you can tell at a glance. Anyone who understands how the top secret system works knows that these things are put in SCIFs, secure compartmented information facilities that are not in any way connected to the internet, that you have to physically go into a vault to look at that's cordoned off from the rest of the world.

So the fact that the media is getting these very basic facts wrong is both embarrassing and a reminder of how important it is to be vetting the records that their claims are based on. Because this is elementary stuff. I'm not trying to just ding them on, you know, the errors that invariably occur.

when you're reporting on something in real time. That's unavoidable. But to say this is an Iranian hack just misunderstands the very basis of how the U.S. intelligence system even works. Well said. Ken, thank you so much for sharing with us your reporting. Tell people how they can follow you and support your work. We run a sub stack, and that's at kenklippenstein.substack.com.

Excellent. Always great to see you, my friend. Good to see you, man. Good luck with that next visit from the FBI. You and that guy are going to be buddies. It's fine. Yep, I'll put out some coffee for him. You got to record it. You got to record it. Yeah, exactly. I got to get a ring camera this time. Just memorize lawyer. I have nothing to say. Listen, I just have to say you have some balls, my friend, and I really respect the hell out of you for it.

All right, take care, Ken. We'll see you soon. Bye, y'all. Thank you guys so much for watching. We appreciate you. Become a premium subscriber if you can. Otherwise, we're gonna see you tomorrow.

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