Pod Save America’s Jon Lovett wants to win an election and make money
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And of course, podcasting.

Yes, the thing you're listening to right now. Well, it's increasingly being produced directly by companies like venture capital firms, investment funds, and a new crop of creators who one day want to be investors themselves.

And what is actually going on with these acquisitions this year, especially in the AI space? Why are so many big players in tech deciding not to acquire and instead license tech and hire away co-founders? The answer, it turns out, is a lot more complicated than it seems. You'll hear all that and more this month on Decoder with Nilay Patel, presented by Stripe. You can listen to Decoder wherever you get your podcasts.

From the Vox Media Podcast Network, this is Channels with Peter Kafka. That is me. I'm the chief correspondent at Business Insider, where I cover media and technology, and that is what we're doing here, too. I'm recording this on Tuesday, October 29th. It's a week before the election, as you know. So there's only one thing to talk about, and I wanted to talk to John Lovett. Lovett is a co-founder of Crooked Media, the lefty podcast company behind Pod Save America, among other shows. He's also very funny. He was also on Survivor this year.

I would have had Lubbock on any time, but this is a particularly good week to do it, I think, because we're seeing a reported 250,000 Washington Post subscribers cancel their subscriptions because of their anger towards Jeff Bezos and his decision to have the Post not endorse a presidential candidate. To be clear, that is an enormous number of people canceling their subscriptions. That's 10% of the Post subscriber base. Really, really, really difficult for the Post to get those people back.

That anger, I think, is misplaced. And John Lovett and I end up talking about that as well. But the energy behind that anger also explains why Crooked Media exists in the first place. Because even though a big chunk of the country is totally tuned out of politics, amazingly to me, there is also a large and hyper engaged audience that can't get enough of this stuff.

And Crooked Media, which again is an explicitly partisan media company, says it generates 25 million downloads a month. That's a huge number. But it's more interesting to hear John Lovett talk about this than me. So let's do that now.

I'm speaking to John Lovett. He is a podcaster, a comedian, an entrepreneur, a political activist, and weirdly, a contestant on Survivor, the TV show. Welcome back, John. Thanks for having me. Thanks for coming on. I know that you make podcasts all day. I'm glad you could squeeze me in here. Everyone I know in media is tired. Everyone who's not in media is either dreading next week's election or trying to pretend it's not happening. You run a political media company, or you co-founded one.

How are you doing? How are you holding up? Oh, well, I'm past the point feeling what I used to know as emotions. And I am just sort of wanting to make sure that we here at Crooked are doing everything we're supposed to do over the next seven days and that we're doing the best job we can to get everybody listening to do what they're supposed to do over the next seven days in the...

in the hope and deeply felt belief that if we do everything we're supposed to do over the next seven days, we will win or we will have proven that we did everything we could to win.

And I don't know the difference yet. And we won't know until after the election. Are you when you're in a planning meeting and someone says, well, really, you're not done in seven days. This thing could stretch on for four weeks and months. Do you are you are you allowing yourself reserve stamina as a human and also as a as a media person to go? Oh, I have to keep I can't blow it all out on Tuesday night. I got to keep going.

I worry a little bit about that. Not for me, but for the team and also just the broader democratic and sort of small d democratic coalition that will have to keep up the fight. Because, you know, I was talking about this on another podcast that like, oh, are you worried about an October surprise? And how I feel about that at this point is we're

What we're living through is what it's like when bad actors try to unleash a million October surprises, right? It's let a million October surprises bloom, misinformation and false stories and all the bullshit that we're living with. But yes, I am worried about how we may be surprised by what happens in the days following the election. But right now, you know, we'll...

We'll burn that bridge when we come to it. I just think we have to get to Election Day and do everything we can to get every vote we can. And then we have to see how hard we have to fight to make sure that the legitimate results of the election win the day.

So one sign that I'm a broken person is I probably listen to you like four or five times a week. Oh, wow. Because I think you do what? The three, three pie in same America episodes. You do two shows of your own. So yeah, I'm pretty broken. Another is that when I saw people posting clips of Tony Hinchcliffe on Sunday, he's the comedian who did the Puerto Rico floating garbage joke at Trump's rally. My thought was that doesn't mean anything. He's a comic. He's a roast comic.

His vibe syncs with the vibe of Donald Trump going back to 2015. People are going to shrug this off. This is just for a snowflake online. People are going to care about this. No one else will. It seems, and I remember recordings with you Tuesday, Tuesday night. It seems like it broke through in some way, at least temporarily. Were you surprised?

No, here's what I thought when I saw that, which is I felt the two thoughts, right? The thought number one is the kind of, I think, human desire.

righteous thought, which is, well, that's disgusting and that shouldn't be said at a presidential campaign stop. And that represents something deeply fucked up about this movement, this Republican campaign, this moment. And then there's that more cynical part of ourselves that I think is a bit broken by the last decade of feeling like, LOL, nothing matters. But I do think this goes to

Why in the debate with Donald Trump Kamala Harris said I invite you to watch his rallies That's why at her rally. She is showing clips of Donald Trump We were doing a recording of love it or leave it this morning and David one of our people on our video team we were just playing moments from the rallies and some Jag off says something to the effect of Kamala Harris and her pimp Hamlet handlers Yeah pimp handlers

And David, who's not on mic and an absolute professional, goes, whoa, whoa. And we maybe have lost our ability to be shocked, but we have been exposed to Donald Trump already.

on an unfiltered basis for a decade. A lot of people tune out politics and boy, am I jealous and boy, do I respect it. We may be the rats at the bottom of the cage, shocked so many times that we just lay down and take it. But most people...

still have some outrage and some shock left in them. And this can break through. And once people see it, once they confront it, they don't like it. But why do you think that one broke through compared to anything else that not just his surrogates, but Donald Trump has said in the last year, let alone the last decade? That's a great question. I don't know the answer. I do think it is in part because of...

larger politics around Puerto Rico specifically. We had AOC on Pots of America. That interview is going to come out tomorrow. But there's a lot of really interesting politics happening in Puerto Rico right now. And a lot of it is around the bad response to the hurricanes that hit Puerto Rico, the corrupt response, the corruption that Donald Trump and his goons were deeply involved in. So there was corruption in Puerto Rico, but there was also corruption that involved the Trump administration. And I think that

is the kind of fertile soil into which this kind of fell. And what is a straw? Like, why is this the straw? I don't know exactly. And we don't know if it's a straw. And we don't know if it's a straw. But if it is something that broke through a little, it did break through. Will it have an impact? Who knows? Time will tell. But it clearly did break through. Because Republicans were saying, hey, that's bad. Don't say that. Republicans were saying it was bad. And I also think, as with anything else, like part of it is that it comports with the narrative

of these Republicans. That was it. Look, J.D. Vance, a lot of the kind of more cynical pro-Trump Republicans, they want to make this about one bad joke. Wasn't one bad joke. It was not. And by the way, it wasn't just one bad speaker. It was a night of vulgarity and bigotry and obscenity.

that was getting tons and tons of cheers and applause, right? This is what that movement has become. This was a good example. And I think for a lot of people, part of what I think maybe is why this is breaking through and why I think in the last week these moments are important is because, you know, I put these two things side by side because I think it's a bit instructive. You have on the one hand, Joe Rogan and Donald Trump sitting down for three hours and actually being honest about it.

I thought Donald Trump, that was his best for him. He seemed normal-ish. And by the way, I first saw, and I think this is a helpful way for me to see it. I first saw a bunch of clips

That made it seem as though it was a bad conversation for Trump in which Rogan was hard on him and Rogan found him embarrassing. Rogan shocked by Trump, whatever. Yeah, I saw those. Bullshit. Bullshit, bullshit, bullshit. It was a solicitous forum for Trump. Trump did well in that setting. However...

You take that and you put it up against Michelle Obama giving a moving personal speech about the stakes and a plea from women to men about why women need the men in their lives to vote with them and vote out Donald Trump. You put those things side by side. I think Michelle Obama wins. And I think this Puerto Rico joke as...

You know, as as much as it's just, you know, another obscenity on the pile, it comes at a time when people are going to the people in their lives and saying, hey, I know you're undecided or I know you're softly supporting Trump. Please listen to me. I'm begging you to listen to me as someone you love. Don't vote for this guy. Please vote with me. Do it because you love me.

So, like I said, I'm broken. I listen to you guys way too much. I could tell. I could tell. One reason I know you've listened is because if I'm hitting something I've hit on Pod Save America, you're like, I've heard this already. But your audience may not have. I know. Your audience may not have. I was going to say that I was listening to your newest show this afternoon and you guys played the Michelle Obama clip. And that is the first time I've encountered it.

I don't know how many days old it is. I have not seen it. And part of my job literally is to just inhale media all day or at least think about it. And that clip is not getting to me. I'm ideologically aligned with Michelle Obama, which brings me to just the whole question of how – and again, to be clear, you guys are both a media company and you're a political –

organization, right? You're supporting liberals, Democrats, the left in general. How have you guys collectively gotten better at getting your message out to what we call low information voters? And what things are still sort of immovable obstacles for you when it comes to getting your message out? I don't know about the outcomes. That was a question about outcomes, but I'll tell you about what I think our means are. First of all, it's a hard question. It's the hard question of politics and

Today, it's a hard question for media organizations that are trying to broaden their audience beyond hyper-engaged people. It's a hard question for campaigns. It's a hard question for people that just want a society in which people are sharing a set of facts and living in a shared reality. I view it as sort of two parts. One part is we have a very engaged, progressive audience, and we...

Try to arm that audience with the most useful and helpful messages and information so that they can go to the people in their lives that aren't paying as close attention. OK, I think that's a lot of what we've been doing, especially as we come down the homestretch. Try not to talk to your uncle.

Right, right. Like, here's the best argument. Like, you know, I asked AOC about this. That interview is going to come out on... When does this come out? Just so I know. On Wednesday. So by the time you hear this, you'll be able to hear that. Yeah. So I talked to AOC about this, and she divided it into two groups of people, right? One is...

really less engaged people that aren't paying attention to politics, cynical about it, don't believe it's for them. The other really engaged but very left young people who feel pretty disenchanted with the Democratic Party, often for very legitimate reasons. How do you talk to these groups of people? She offers her perspective on how to talk to those group of people, right?

So those are the ways in which I think we can arm the audience that is paying attention to politics. Maybe their intention went up because maybe they weren't before Trump, or maybe they've become more engaged because of Trump, whatever it might be, giving them the tools. And that's also, by the way, Vote Save America, which if you're listening to this and you're looking for a way to help, you go to votesaveamerica.com, you go to votesaveamerica.com and we will give you the tools you need to help. But then there is this other group that is maybe more cynical, less engaged with politics. Can we reach them directly? And I think one way we try to do that

is to just, before you can be a party people want to join, you got to be a party people would want to attend. And I think we try to just have a fun, entertaining conversation so that if maybe you are new to politics and you haven't been paying attention, you can feel like you're part of this community and you can learn about it. It can be an on-ramp for you. So I think we try to do both. Party you'd like to attend. Right.

That's good. How much of the challenge that you're facing and that conventional media companies are facing and just turn to cover Donald Trump, how much of that is Trump specific and how much of that is going to remain a factor in political life post-Trump, whenever that era is?

I have no idea. Just simply no idea. And to be honest, I'm not in a very reflective mindset. There were two moments, though, in the last 24 hours to 36 hours that reminded me of some of the challenges that the Trump movement faces without Trump at the helm. One of them is the Jake Tapper interview with J.D. Vance. And the other is this moment, awful moment on CNN, where somebody made a very offensive joke at Mehdi Hassan about Trump.

about Lebanon basically, you know, he said he's pro-Palestinian and he said, where's your beeper? You hope your beeper doesn't go off. And I thought they were both instructive moments. The Tony Hinchcliffe one is too, but because, you know, Donald Trump runs around the country for a decade bullshitting about how amazing he is, how much of a genius he is, how he never makes a mistake, how everything's a disaster when he's not around.

And it's funny, the word that you would you would do narcissistic egomaniac, you wouldn't necessarily say arrogant. It's just not the it absolutely describes him. But it's not the first word that comes to mind when you see J.D. Vance. The first word that comes to mind is arrogant. And it is a difference to me, to me, that there is an arrogance to him that's less on display despite the egomania of a Donald Trump.

And you watch J.D. Vance arrogantly, angrily bicker and try to kind of get one over on Jake Tapper, fail to do so, in part because, as J.D. Vance surely knows, what Tapper is saying is unequivocal, impossible to respond to, unquestionably true, etc. And it's just an ugly moment. And maybe there are some hardcore fans for whom that appeals. But J.D. Vance isn't appealing when he's doing the Trump show. Same thing with that guy on CNN. It's like,

Oh, you're going to try to pull off this kind of hostile thing. You don't have it, man. These people don't have it. Like he he he's like, what a mess. Right. What a mess. Right. The thought is, oh, this is this works at 4chan or 8chan or wherever online you're hanging out. You get in the real world and people just look at you like you just took a dump on the floor because you did. But but there is a big right wing. I mean, there there is a large group of people who see that stuff and go, oh, yeah, that's I'm fine with that.

Yes. And by the way, we managed to win. Trumpism remains a threat. This kind of politics has to be defeated again and again and again, in part to send a message to the less ideological, more craven Republicans who have embraced it that there's no sin like losing for these people. They turned against him on January 6th because he was leaving power and they thought that January 6th meant he was going to be a pariah forever. So the cost of going against him went down dramatically. When it

when the cost went back up because they thought he was going to be the nominee and very well might win because Joe Biden seemed like he couldn't, suddenly they all forgot what they said about the insurrection. We'll be back with John Lovett in a minute, but first a word from a sponsor. Support for this podcast comes from Stripe.

Payment management software isn't something your customers think about that often. They see your product, they want to buy it, and then they buy it. That's about as complex as it gets. But under the hood of that process, there are a lot of really complicated things happening that have to go right in order for that sale to go through.

Stripe handles the complexity of financial infrastructure, offering a seamless experience for business owners and their customers. For example, Stripe can make sure that your customers see their currency and preferred payment method when they shop. So checking out never feels like a chore. Stripe is a payment and billing platform supporting millions of businesses around the world, including companies like Uber, BMW, and DoorDash. Stripe has helped countless startups and established companies alike reach their growth targets, make progress on their missions, and reach more customers globally.

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Hey, it's Liam from Decoder with Nilay Patel. We spent a lot of time talking about some of the most important people in tech and business, about what they're putting resources to and why they think it's so critical for the future. That's why we're doing this special series, diving into some of the most unique ways companies are spending money today. For instance, what does it mean to start buying and using AI at work? How much is that costing companies? What products are they buying? And most importantly, what are they doing with it? And of course, podcasting.

Yes, the thing you're listening to right now. Well, it's increasingly being produced directly by companies like venture capital firms, investment funds, and a new crop of creators who one day want to be investors themselves.

And what is actually going on with these acquisitions this year, especially in the AI space? Why are so many big players in tech deciding not to acquire and instead license tech and hire away co-founders? The answer, it turns out, is a lot more complicated than it seems. You'll hear all that and more this month on Decoder with Nilay Patel, presented by Stripe. You can listen to Decoder wherever you get your podcasts. Thumbtack presents the ins and outs of caring for your home.

Out. Procrastination, putting it off, kicking the can down the road. In. Plans and guides that make it easy to get home projects done. Out. Carpet in the bathroom. Like, why? In. Knowing what to do, when to do it, and who to hire. Start caring for your home with confidence. Download Thumbtack today.

And we're back. The beginning of the year, you guys were pursuing this plan that said, you originally started running a network of podcasts.

And you still have that. But your plan was, we're going to sort of double down on the shows that you make and your co-founders make. We're going to do a lot more of those. And it was clearly, like a lot of political media, you guys were synced to the primaries. We're just going to be this primary. We're going to cover it. And by February, for sure, but really in January, it was clear that there was no primary. And you guys were sort of, I could hear it. You were in this position where we've got to do another show and there's really nothing to talk about. We could tell you that maybe Nikki Haley is going to have a surge, but there's just...

The election is what it's going to be. It's going to be Biden versus Trump. Did you have a plan B or a plan C at that point, or did you just have to sort of barrel through and hope there was enough interest? Well, I just think we didn't know what the future would hold. Obviously, the more interesting the primary, the better, but we had to cover what we had to cover. I will say, when I did leave to go film

survivor, and I gave up my phone. And I had a month, a month without politics, without any of it. And I did have this moment when I was just sort of alone with my thoughts at some point thinking, oh man, I am just not looking forward to

But also nice to be off the line.

It was also very, very nice to be offline. I mean, it kind of generates hives for the first couple of days, right? And then like, how long did it take you in a total digital detox to go, oh, I like this?

You're checking your pockets and you don't have a phone in it. You keep checking your pockets. Where's my phone? Where's I've got to, what time is it? Let me, let me check my phone. You don't have your phone. And then I really did notice that my attention span started to heal, that I was able to kind of within my mind, that the wavelength of my thoughts got bigger, the frequency got lower and everything

everything was a bit quieter and I was able to have a little bit more space to think and be comfortable being alone with my thoughts. I was reading books before and after and just sitting and reading for an hour or two without having my hand reach for an update. And that was very good.

And you went straight from that to, I'm back making television. I'm back making content. I'm checking my Twitter. I'm checking my phone. Oh, as bad as it's ever been. I absolutely took none of the experience and turned it into better behavior. None of it. Absolutely not. I was going to save this for later, but let's keep talking about Survivor. So it's an election year. You're at a political media company. You go on Survivor. What was your initial thought? Like, I'll try out and I won't get on and that'll just be a fun experience? Or did you think you would actually get cast? Oh, Peter.

That's not how I ever, I never, of course I just thought I'd be on Survivor. From the get-go, you're like, this is a thing I want to do. The second I decided to make a video, I thought I was going to do it. It was going to happen. Why did you decide I want to do it this year? Well, because no, no, you know, make Hey While the Sun Shines. The reason to do it

was because I did think I could lose my nerve. The other is there was a part of me that thought in May, which is a little bit of a lull, whatever was happening with the primary before the conventions, before things really heat up, it'll be an opportunity to take time completely outside of politics, have this challenge, this interesting experience.

And then at a time when all of us are thinking about and focused on electoral democracy to be part of this show that is ultimately a social experiment in democracy. That was sincere. I said it when I talked to Jeff the very first time. That really was my motivation. And I do think that there is a kinship there. Now, I would have liked to have made it a little bit longer on the program, though I will say the most nerve wracking experience of it is

was the run-up to the episode airing. I'm sure I would have felt a little bit less nervous if I didn't think I was... We're not spoiling anything. You were the first person voted out. I was the first person voted out. Yes, thank you. Thank you. Yes, for those listening, I was the first person voted out. But I will say, if I was going to go home early, I'm glad it was first as opposed to fourth, fifth, or sixth because...

It was so nerve wracking watching it. And I got to watch it. I got to, by the way, talk to a lot of people about the election and Vote Save America in the run up to the airing and in the press. It drew people to Vote Save America, I hope, in this home stretch and exposure to a different audience. And in that sense, it was worth it. Good job. Thank you. Thank you so much. I've still never seen an episode. That's fine. But I'm familiar with it. We'll be back with Jon Lovett in a minute. But first, a word from a sponsor. Support for this podcast comes from Stripe.

Payment management software isn't something your customers think about that often. They see your product, they want to buy it, and then they buy it. That's about as complex as it gets. But under the hood of that process, there are a lot of really complicated things happening that have to go right in order for that sale to go through.

Stripe handles the complexity of financial infrastructure, offering a seamless experience for business owners and their customers. For example, Stripe can make sure that your customers see their currency and preferred payment method when they shop. So checking out never feels like a chore. Stripe is a payment and billing platform supporting millions of businesses around the world, including companies like Uber, BMW, and DoorDash. Stripe has helped countless startups and established companies alike reach their growth targets, make progress on their missions, and reach more customers globally.

The platform offers a suite of specialized features and tools to power businesses of all sizes, like Stripe Billing, which makes it easy to handle subscription-based charges, invoicing, and all recurring revenue management needs. Learn how Stripe helps companies of all sizes make progress at stripe.com. That's stripe.com to learn more. Stripe. Make progress.

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Trump debate ended June. Biden does what he does. You guys recorded a show that night and started floating the idea that maybe Biden should not be on the ticket. How much discussion did you have about that discussion in advance? Because you were basically the first prominent Democrats, people on the left saying that out loud after that night. So as we're watching the debate,

The way that I would describe it is that at first it was nerve wracking. Then it was shocking. Then it was terrifying.

And then it started to become it started to become undeniable that we were going to have to have a conversation about what this represented. And look, I think part of why that conversation happened so quickly is because, first of all, the conversation, the conversation in quotes, was behind where voters were. It just was.

But the question was always, what's the bigger risk here? Right. Joe Biden's biggest liability is his age. We know that. And it is a big liability. But every voters have been saying it over and over and over. And the voters have been saying it. But other candidates will have liabilities. Joe Biden is tested. Joe Biden is also certainly on domestic policy. An excellent president. I really believe that he is an excellent, excellent.

excellent president. And you can't point to any place in which his being older had been a liability. If he was 10, 15 years younger, it wouldn't be a question that he would deserve a chance to seek re-election. And so do you stick with the person whose liability you know, or do you seek out a different candidate? And by the way, that different candidate would have to run and they didn't. They just didn't.

And so you take solace in the moments where the State of the Union, he really kind of silenced, by doing a great job, a lot of his critics, and the window for a vigorous primary had closed. Only kooks had challenged him. Right. This is what you've been saying all spring. Like, this is the boat we're on. Right. And the only, I think, non-kook was Dean Phillips, and that was, I think, a misbegotten

option. And we have to be practical here. We just have to win. We have to do everything we can to help him win despite this liability, despite the fact that the polling was getting rough. And then that debate happens. And I think the math changed. The risk of sticking with this path is greater. But did you guys huddle and say, OK, we all think this or maybe some of us think this, but let's let this sit for a day or two before we come out and say we should start thinking about replacing Joe Biden?

I just remember that as we were watching the debate, there was a moment where I can't remember. It might have been when he said, we're going to, I can't remember exact phrasing, but I'm the guy that killed Medicare or whatever he said. We're going to beat Medicare. We're going to, I'm the guy, we beat Medicare. Or the answer where he went from talking about abortion to a terrible immigration story. And it was just sort of more, I don't know, this is different. It's, we have to talk about it. And it was just,

There was never a question that we were going to be honest about what we saw because that's what we do, right? We just like, there's always a balance, right? We come from being part of politics, being part of campaigns. And as is true in life, some of the worst people in the world are the people who say, well, I'm just being honest. And so sometimes you say to yourself, well, you want to be honest and you want to be practical. It became...

important to be honest and practical about what it would mean to stick with Joe Biden and why it was necessary to have the debate. And then you guys became part of the story then. You were referenced as Obama bros who were trying to take him down, or they'd make references in the New York Times to podcast bros. It was all about you. The fact that you guys had stuck your neck out or just had said...

we think this is something we should change, was you got a lot of blowback politically. And then I'm assuming your audience, in fact, I know I heard one of the shows you did afterwards was a live show and the audience could not even hear a clip of Biden acting badly on stage. You don't necessarily need the White House to do your job, but you need your audience. Was there ever a moment after that where you thought, fuck, maybe we stepped in it? Maybe we shouldn't have gone this way. There were definitely moments where we wondered,

Is Biden really going to stick this out? Right. Because there was a lot of a lot of pushback was Biden's not going anywhere and you're hurting Joe Biden. Now, the argument in response is we the voters have already told you that Joe Biden's age is their biggest factor. I'm not going to say only, but the biggest opportunity he would have in the entire campaign to reverse that impression, he just made worse.

It wasn't just one bad night. And so it is not the fact that this is now a debate on social media and on podcasts and on television. That is a debate that reflects what people were already feeling. And so that was the response. But there were moments where he said, oh, he's really going to try to stick it out. And he did really try to stick it out. But I really sincerely, I said this on podcasts, I said this on social media, that I've always...

Yeah.

And I personally continue to believe that through the entire time. There were moments where I doubted it, but I really believed that he would do the right thing. I'm just curious what you think of sort of the idea of audience capture, right? I mean, you see it with the New York Times, now the Washington Post, right? There's a contingent of their readers and subscribers that are

liberal left-leaning, they're very angry about the state of the world, and some of that, they focus some of that anger on the way they think the Times and the Post are falling short in various ways. And you guys are, again, explicitly liberal. Like, the whole point is for you to elect Democrats, and you're out there saying, well, maybe we should rethink this, and we're going to screw things up.

Were you getting a visceral reaction from them or was it not really factoring into what you're thinking? Yeah, we heard criticisms for sure. And we heard criticism from the audience. But also the audience grew dramatically during that time. Like people sought us out.

I think they sought a place where people were having this honest conversation because there was a conversation they were having. And it was a huge story. It was a huge story. And it was also a place where people were hammering this out. Like we had a, had a Medi Hassan on and we did a real debate about whether we should change candidates. And that was a really honest conversation.

The sides were assigned, but it was a real debate about the merits of both and understanding that there were look, there were five people on both sides. And and being honest about that, I think, made us a place where people felt like there was a catharsis and value to hearing that. And so, yes, there are people that were upset. I will say, you know.

We're watching a bunch of people cancel the Washington Post because they're upset about Jeff Bezos taking an action that will have zero impact on Jeff Bezos, but might actually have a negative impact on the journalists who work at the Washington Post. They've lost 10% of their subscriber base as of today. And first of all...

And it set off, I think, a legitimate debate about compliance, right? Voluntary compliance with fascism, doing it in advance, right? Avoiding retribution by complying before it's even put upon you. And I think that I actually think

That is not just a concern. That's an undeniable fact that is taking place. Republicans have have said, I would come out against Donald Trump, but I'm afraid of the threats my family will face. There is more than just craven politics in the reason Liz Cheney and Mark Cuban are out there alone. I think their concerns, the concerns of the people canceling are legitimate. However,

Sometimes I think in this era, when people feel a bit powerless, they feel dispirited, they feel confused and rightfully angry about a politics. And when someone as heinous and despicable and obviously unfit can get so close to the White House and may well become president, you look for the places where you can have influence and

And sometimes this feels a little bit like what we're watching is a national divorce. And mom is the better parent who will listen when you get upset. And so they take out, they, people take it out on mom. And you just see that over and over again, like the reporters of the Washington post who are doing great work investigating and reporting on Donald Trump. We want them there. We want them there in part because of the threat that he poses. And, and I, I just like, there is a kind of,

We have to. It's a hard. This is, I think, one thing we try to do. And like, I understand that feeling. I have the same anger and frustration, but we have to direct it, especially in this last week, in productive ways. Am I worried that that that corporations and the wealthy will capitulate to Donald Trump to protect their own interests? Of course I am. One way to prevent that from happening is defeating Donald Trump. Am I worried when Mike Johnson and Donald Trump tell each other that they have a secret?

And we don't know what it means. Does it give me a pit and a bad feeling in the pit of my stomach that I trust? It does. But one way to make sure we never have to worry about that winning the House. So on January 3rd, Akeem Jeffries becomes speaker. We have seven days. And practically speaking, we can win this. And it has absolutely nothing to do with whether people keep or cancel The Washington Post. I want to end it there, but I wanted to ask you about Elon before we go. OK. You used to own a Tesla.

I did. I used to own a Tesla. You sold it because of Elon's behavior. And it rattled. And it rattled. He has lost a ton of money on Twitter, billions and billions of dollars. His net worth is unaffected because Tesla stock went down and now it's back up. Mm-hmm.

In my world, he is a very Trumpian figure in that he agitates people. He says crazy things. My world being people who write about tech and business, we cover almost all of the crazy things he says. There's a woman at The New York Times who's an awesome reporter, and her job is to report about Elon Musk basically full time. And I worry that we have not learned some lessons from the Trump era when it comes to Elon. But then I also think, I don't know, man, he's at least as powerful as Donald Trump.

And maybe we should be overreacting to everything he says or does. As a former Tesla owner, as someone who consumes a lot of media and makes a lot of media, any advice about how to think about Elon Musk in the world and how we should cover him? Elon Musk, what a puzzle. You know, it's very hard to keep... I mean, this is gonna be the most...

pedantic thing I say, which is, I think, impressive. Do you ever read The Crackup by F. Scott Fitzgerald? Nope. It's a lot of drinking. It's a lot of drinking. But he has this line, which I think has been repeated, which is the sign of a first-rate intelligence is keeping two opposing ideas in the mind and retaining the ability to function. And

You know work we're sort of being asked to make sense of anything. This is some of the reason why it's interesting to people, right? It's not just because he's I mean obviously his he has a billionaire with incredible influence that he's using in corrupt and Nefarious and despicable ways, but it's also just an interesting mystery. It is right. How is this person? I have never how did it happen? And how did it happen? And how do you explain that a person I am not one of those people that has been able to so easily dismiss the idea that this man is smart

Because of his stupidity and vileness around politics. Right. Because I just can't ascribe these various successes to luck. There's a dumb critique that says, oh, his dad had a diamond mine. That's why he's so rich. And that's just not true. It's just it's it's just does that maybe explain how he had some resources to get started? Is there luck? Of course, there's a luck. There's luck. There's luck that I'm sitting here. There's luck. There's luck everywhere.

But Tesla, SpaceX, PayPal, you go down the list. This is a person who has some kind of aptitude and genius for making things happen, doing things, getting the best out of engineers, understanding the difference between difficult and impossible. There's a genuine talent there, right? It's just I don't believe that's deniable.

And then on the other hand, you have to square that with the circle of his inane, addled, ridiculous, despicable politics. And I just don't think you can. And I don't think you have to. There is Elon Musk, business person. There is Elon Musk, right wing troll and conspiracy theorist.

people contain multitudes and I am sort of bored of and done with looking for a deeper explanation and I think it just ought to be taken at face value this is a very sophisticated and intelligent actor who has a great deal of knowledge and acumen in in building things and doing things he also has despicable political views rooted in his own psychology and his own personal interests and

And I don't know what else you need to know beyond that. Johnny, he just wants people to tell him he's funny. Couldn't you like set up a comedy club for him and stock it with goons for a night and just kind of solve everything?

Tell him he's hilarious. Yeah, people need therapy, man. A lot of people need therapy. Rudy Giuliani needs therapy. Elon needs therapy. These people need to talk to somebody. And we have a lot of damage being done by people who would rather be angry than sad. John Lovett, you make me happy. You're part of my therapy. Good, good. Thanks for your time. Glad I could do that. Thanks, John. Thank you. Thanks again to John Lovett. Last time I got to talk to John Lovett on a podcast, it was...

early, early in the pandemic, spring of 2020. So glad to speak with him in less pandemic-y times. Thanks to our advertisers. They probably don't want to hear me say the word pandemic very much, but God bless them. God bless you. The people who listen to the show, the people who like it, the people who tell me you like it, the people who I think are telling other people they like it. We love all of that. We'll see you next week. Support for the show comes from AT&T.

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