Talking Dateline: The Case of the Man with No Name
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this episode of talking deadline was recorded on october seventeen S. Everybody, i'm judged what's and this is talking date .

line and know that was very much enthusiasm I would do you know hi everybody is more.

Hi everybody is judge my equites and we're talking date line. And our guest today is you're actually .

not very believable when you do with .

that was the point you're supposed to see your name there. I guess this Keith Morrison, we're talking about the story that sent Keith back to his homeland of canada.

fact, to the city where I spent a always by year and after eight years old is a great place.

Now to our audience, if you have not seen this episode on television or listen to IT on podcast, it's the episode right below this on the list of podcast. So go there, listen to that or watch IT on TV and then come back here. So you know, is IT great to be able to go back to canada .

and cover a story always, always um em hit a wonderful country in so many ways, and it's always a delightful to be there to spend some time there.

Are you mob? Ed, when you go there?

Gosh, get me silly. Not mobs anywhere. Josh.

are you? No, no. I sort of have this idea that when you return to canada, it's like Franks and ater and the Bobby axes.

No, come on, let me silly. I well.

but IT is nice to be. You lived in eventually when you .

were a small boy. yeah. I remember vividly to bending down the side of the the banks of the so schedule river.

My dad was a preach to make google united church at the top of the ill, and we slide down that hill every sunday after church was quite exciting. Got lost in that city one time when I was that age friend of mind. And I went down to watch IT, you don't want to hear all these stories.

do you? Oh, no, I think we do. Yes.

watch a parade downtown. And we looked a little far of mistakes. Ks, but so who's kind of a long walk for two little kids? And we never thought the idea that our parents should be worried about us. And by the time I got home over police cars all around the street, people are terrifying, and we are a lot of .

trouble for a bit. For that trouble, take in the Morrison household.

Well, they were crossed with me, but they didn't. You know, no one lays a hand on you. They were just disappointed if I can put that way, which is a which is you know it's it's a certainly a punishment and is one feels the thing for a long time of disappointment.

But though there's no grounding you are not like can find your rumor.

No, no, no, not that call. Anyway.

I would say based on current evidence, probably not enough discipline exercise in your household and.

Coming from you, and I think that's a fine idea.

Back to our story now. One of the interesting things about the stories that this originally came in through the digital team sort of not in the traditional way that we get stories, which is we read about in the newspaper or local stations, calls, or, you know, prosecutors are cops that we worked with, this came in through the the deadline digital portal.

and what from one of the detectives involved in this, in this case. But there is more background to that as well. And production invent Stella and I vents who work with and you've work with for many years o we did a story in edmonton few years ago about a guy who thought he was going to be a movie maker and he would impersonate somebody who got people's bodies happen.

So on the evening, police solve that. That case, and I was a IT, was a kind of fascinating police procedure. Well, the detective who called, who got touch with our digital team, was one of the detectives on that case.

And we talked to a different detective on that case. So this particular detective was wrong. Very, very happy to talk to you.

Add, met this guy before.

No, didn't meet the guy before at all.

But that was the connection was an earlier story. Yeah, you know I mean, it's funny like, I mean, you go on across country lines, but like you look at those guys and like those guys are cops.

you know you know they they betrayed in a particular attitude a sincere about the way they approach their their task which which is sweet, is lovely to watch I accuse them of playing deadly. I do right. Uh, the united.

they do seem very guilty. I like that.

Well, yes. And yet they're the opposite of government, and they are .

quite smart. And d and they saw through everybody I thought that they needed to see through in this, you know, talking about the differences to in our two countries. One of the things that leaped out at me was how quickly the case of of doing who was missing, and is the first person you sort of meet in the story, the first character when they actually see him, how quickly doins case accelerated from we can find them, and we find a missing person's report to having, like some really season homicide guys put on the case. I am not sure that that would happen with that kind of speed here in this country, because one of the things that family complained about all the time that we deal with is that follow missing person's report and then nothing happens because for a lot of departments, missing persons is not a priority.

Yeah that is true um although in this case also when you find a car on fire in a parade and there's a bunch of blood, the back seat, you can really tell how much and some guys running away from the scene trying to take off your shirt so he won't be recognized. That gives you an indication that maybe you should following this up as a crime.

I would say. So although there are plenty of jurisdictions in this country where we have interview people who had that kind of knowledge or something like IT, and they they couldn't get law enforcement to react quickly enough eventually law enforcement in. But I just thought that I noticed that the speed of this was something that I found a remarkable.

One more thing I wanted to talk about with you was the the extent to which sort of this story is driven by technology. I mean, IT wasn't too long ago that if you saw somebody leaving, what you thought might be a crime, saying you had no way of recording. And now everybody's got a handheld video recorder on times. And that made a huge difference.

IT sure did. In a number of occasions. A during the, during the sole investigation, IT could have run the ground because you couldn't do things then that you can do. Now, obviously, there are a bit of, because of evidence, bits of DNA there that made an enormous difference, which would never have been discovered.

And that corrected IT did.

He did. And then the idea that you can send A A picture of photograph of somebody to a whole other country to, uh, the D. M. V in washington state and they would run through their face facial recognition program and come up with some, you know, good alternative, does who that person actually is and that that person did want slive in washington state. I mean, you would never have gotten that.

I would have been unthinkable just a few years ago. I love the motion generated security video from the limo parking lot, right? Where you can see a guy hiding in the R.

I. That that is truly jewish. Video, I I just love that .

I was great IT IT truly was. Mean, what an odd thing to do. You're hiding in a dumpster. And every once in a while you raise the little couple interest to see if somebody there.

So please ask your question, that sort of mean, one of the things I really loved about this story was that even going into like the last part twelve, there are twelve parts in every two hour day line. Even going into a part twelve, I was think of myself, what's going on here? Like what's the idea? I don't get IT.

I mean, like, why did he want a whole other identity? You know, Jason statement, A, K, A. Jason, no. Last name, which I didn't even think you could do. A, K, A, Robert, Robert maxwell, I mean, I was fomc. S, by the whole thing, I didn't understand why he'd gone to such incredible lks to create these new identities and why would he want to kill por doing just because they'd had to run in once that's gonna you hide in a dumpster and like, do everything that follow that .

tom plan yeah very strange. And unless unless he felt that doing could expose him you know just um some misplace jealousy over a girl didn't seem adequate either and yet IT happened so about that one still can if you are really .

and I sort of felt like prosecutors like we're offering that motive and essentially saying this is the best we've got here like we know you want a motive okay， how about this? But I didn't even think they sounded like they were hundred percent sure as to what was really going on.

No, I don't think they are IT just doesn't make any sense. It's a stranger turn thing. But then after that, the whole trail is very calculated to race.

Uh, you know any vestige of what he did well in canada and then get back in the washington state and resume his old character having dealt with all in a potential crimes against them and nobody would ever be the wise. You're in cana and I just, you know a little bit of thing is like bubble gum at the back of a truck. Uh, you know, that sort of thing that did.

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okay. So I know that there was internally here at date line. There was some discussion when this story was was in .

production.

Yes, I know that you do. There was some discussion that you you keys, we're going to be on a jet ski that you know that that was the kind of reporter involvement um that you and I ve both been asked to do numerous times in our careers and a lot of reporters seemed to relish, although I don't and i'm not sure you do, but there are a lot of people wondering whether or not you were going to adjusted and I will say this when I was asked that question, do you think keys will appear on a jg in this in this story? I said there is no chance of that.

嗯， 没有你， 你 know me well， I think I said the time, I know I won't do that。 I mean, I don't about you, but I came up in the time when getting in front of the camera and actually some stuff for getting on a just ski or or you know standing in the middle of hurricane. Well, the thing is blown your body when you know what's really windy out there? no.

I mean, yes, that's that's all just kind of putting on a show and as a report, I always felt like you you, you you don't want to become part of the story. You're standing back letting the story happen and then simply describing IT. That's our job.

You know, I think there are probably times in which the reporters doing the thing that happens in the story helps the audience understand that. But I think that most of the time when the reporter is doing something that that somebody and the story is done, all you're thinking about is the audiences, what would he is doing, which is what you want to be thinking.

You want them thinking about the story and heat.

I'm glad that you did not that you did not get on the JK. Let me ask you a follow up question. As we saying in in journalism.

have you ever been in a just ski? Yes, I I have been jusko. I'd fell off the back, of course, and the .

thing went around probably .

was enough for me.

This was what year? roughly?

Oh god, I don't didn't remember. It's a long time ago. Thing is, I have always been sort of person who new falls off things I can't trust. You know, somebody said, because they heard I was from canada. So what you probably want to talk about hockey and of course I don't, because played hokey in seven, ten years and when I did play hockey, I used to fall down all the time and hurt myself .

so I don't on the ice that's why yeah true it's very slip. Yeah that's why I replay IT. Yeah, I like keeping my footing. So we talked a little bit about sort of you, this story happening in the age of modern technology and the age of surveilLance.

You know, one of the things that some of the homicide detectives that I know that i've got to know in this job, one of the things they talk about is that know the cops today who come out of the academy and and you know doing homicides early on, they're very good at getting the security footage and they're very good that you know, dumping people's phones and getting information like that and setting up a thing where they, you know can figure out which tower the phone was on and thus charting someone's movements through that and looking through their social accounts and all of that. And it's very important, and I don't want to minimize that. And then also, they know everything about DNA and how to how to how to make sure that the forensic examples are are submitted in the right way and they're lifted from the right things.

And you know DNA costs a lot of money, so you can test every single thing. You have to have a best guess to sort of what where you're going to take your samples from. But the art that's going away, I always hear about is talking to people in the in that little interrogation room. They're not training for .

that as much. Perhaps not all there. There are more written and unwritten rules in various different jurisdictions about how how I should be done. And I think that's good because we have seen in both of us have done stories in the past um more than a few about interrogations that went wrong and produced the wrong result in the case or at least got somebody going down a kind of a tunnel of uh of wrong evidence uh, toward the a solution apparently solution of a crime that wasn't a solution at all. So now I mean, I don't know whether how many, how many jurisdictions have a rule that you must record both picture on A I don't know how many jurisdictions have rules in place about having somebody in the room with a Young person if they're being interrogated.

It's increasingly happening everywhere. And also, I mean, the other thing now is that, you know, juries now they don't want to hear the cop saying, I told I ask him this and he told me that they want to see the .

video and is perfectly understood. I mean, how many times have you had a conversation? And you know, a month, two months, six months later, you're telling somebody about the conversation. He said this, I said that and then you hear a tape of the conversation and it's no where you're correct. So no, you know.

understanding well, I mean, that's something we run into all the time here, which is that people's memories are frequently now as good as they think they are, as we think they are. And I love the the reference to encyclopedia Brown, whose books I read all through school. I was very big.

Those are great books. I mean, I would call him being great books is it's IT was delighted seeing seeing them being talked about by a guy .

who call himself the cowboy, cowboy I loved, I really loved. How dose friends sort of march themselves into this impromptu, my, and sort of set out to come up with answers like the the cowboy and the woman who I get the feeling sort of should have been his girlfriend, but wasn't. And I thought that was all I I love. That doing .

was from saskatoon, saskatoon, which happens to be my central own, done as as, as are his parents who still live there, brother, who was with the one who appeared on a television show nice nice man all of the very you know sweet soft spoken people um who just want the right thing to be done and there is you know you go back to your the the place of of your beginnings of your roots and when you discover that people really kind of nice there IT IT it's good time you may you feel .

well they certainly wear good people and IT was great to see them rally around their friend and try to know basically solve this murder um even when they sort of recognize that the police were we're doing something .

you know right now there was a thing in this a thing in this story you whether which i'm sure you saw going by um that has always troubled me in troubled others who have been there who have worked on other stories there with me which is the downtown each side of vancouver which is where poor robbert Robert maxwell and IT is days IT is a nightmare able place several square blocks area .

in in the you know the old core of uh.

City I lived in back in the early seventies beautiful city then and an extraordinary city today was .

that the city row of the city back IT IT .

was becoming that you know kind of beginning in the sixties, I think and then got worse worse and and the place you always think is gonna how get Better? And IT and IT and IT doesn't right, smacked up in the middle of that middle. 好， boro od is the main police station.

And I think intentionally so in a way that they gather around there for safety sake. And uh you know the salvation army is there and various other social agencies and government agencies to look after them in some in whatever way they are. But IT goes on along and one is is kind of a hell on earth than those little few square block area.

Very sad thing to see in the middle. Love you. Arguably the richest, if not one of the richest countries on the planet.

Certainly that's the case here in los Angeles, where sko is in the shadow of no gorgeous office towers and all this money. So Robert, Robert maxell, first of all this story um I thought first proved and then later disproved um a maximum that i've always believed in uh which is the people who have three names are criminals. John wilks, proof we are we.

I thought a Robert, Robert maxwell was going to be among them. And then I turned out, of course, he was blameless in this. So let me ask you about Robert or rem. Well, his body has never been found, right.

His body has never been found that right.

So we don't really know whether our suspect in this, Jason, whether he was involved in killing him, or whether he just found out that maybe happened upon him after he died or or somehow helped him down that road, maybe by giving him too much of whatever druggy was taking. We do not just know assume is identity that .

he encountered him and I think there were some evidence that he encountered him well alive ah there on the downtown, his side um and then a few days later, he was going around with a the man's ID and nobody ever saw again.

Uh, you know we were talking earlier about sort of the extent to which you, the viewer, are kind of left wondering in this thing a lot of times a daylight, you know what's going on on, you know sometimes you don't know, but usually by the time the final act begins, like you act twelve, you know what's going on. And in this case, I did not know what was going on. And I thought that for you in vance, that was really A A triumph story telling uh, because I was hanging on the edge of my seat the whole way I was watching this thing and that's hard to do to not tip the story at any point why you're telling IT.

It's tRicky and you know because I worked with tim mellinger, who was the original producer on this, but we sit together and had explained to me how they were. He figure out that we could probably put this together in a way that made sense. IT was a circular route, so we had to cover several basis, just in case you know that we had to go a different direction.

Did the people at the limo company, i'm assuming you tried to talk to them and they said no pressure. They didn't want to talk. They didn't want talk about their employee. What would why would .

they not want to talk just general, reluctant ance I think to talk about, to go on television to discuss the the crime that occurred there. The other person who was extremely who who you know, thought about the true while, but in the end didn't, was the girl for an Angel. And I think out of the fear, out of concern for what could happen when .

they're looking at at who they think is Robert doing, maxwell, the cops are realizing like there's no, there's no social media presence. There's nothing you know who didn't have any photos of them anywhere online. IT looked like the only photos of him. We're sort of required photos, like ID photos with drivers license photos .

give careful to avoid those things. Mean, you gotta know if you're living that kind of life, you probably need to avoid that stuff. He didn't even revealed to his friends where he lived or even his even his girlfriend wasn't sure yeah.

I mean, I sort of get the feeling that most people didn't know who he was and didn't know his true colors, although it's a pretty clear that his wife and the mother is child did see him pretty clearly and he was right to be frightened of him. And once again, know domestic violence. So much a factor in deadlines, so much in the background of so many stories that we do made another appearance here, which you don't think it's going to because IT looks like this is just about a murder between a couple of guys and then IT turns out, um no, there's dv in IT somewhere.

There's always solution. How I got to start really SHE .

told a great story. I thought .

a great job with her. He was very good and and very affected by what happened. I I found myself a having feeling for her, a child, and hoping that, and I didn't become a long term problem.

He's locked up. He's get out. No.

you know, I think you could .

probably breathe little easier.

therefore least safe. yes. But can you imagine being in that position where your your child is in the presence of a person like that and you're know where and you got to get there as cricket? You can god knows what's going to happen.

Was an ability part of the story and he said, made three years like eight minutes.

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By the way, it's time that we brought up something here on tucking dates, lands, but the biggest for a long time. And that involves you. You are too nice and you are too self facing and you never talk.

You always like argue with me about how great you are. And the truth is, no, no, no, you're a giant icon in our neighbor to the north. You are.

They love you. Oh, he's getting up and leaving. He's getting up and living like it's a deadline interview when the person doesn't like answering the tough questions.

You are not even to focus right now. You're so far from the camera. The truth is canadians think you are a huge success story and a wonderful journalist report. And the reason I think that is because it's true.

Yes, okay, you you .

all right. When do you have to call people to get them to appear on date line? Let's go back .

to that about the same times you do, josh, which is you know you often and I think, well no, not that often but because you know the people we work where there is extremely ly good at that the thing occasionally IT just needs a um probably a reminder that that appearing on our program is is not like a big terrible, horrible thing to do. And the uh in most circumstances, because we are doing a story, we want to portrait well, portrait them fairly and and get IT right.

I always say to people who are who are reluctant to beyond, I like like this stories is going to happen with you or without you and you're gona like a lot .

Better if you're in IT. Josh, you know this as well as anybody that um when you have the material, when you have the interview with somebody gonna use IT and what that does is IT shifts IT shifts the focus of the story so that portrays the story from that person's point of view for for a time if they don't appear on the program. Um there's really nothing you can do about you know seeing the sympathetic side of that person. You know we're going to we're going to engage this sympathetic side. We're going to explore the sympathetic side if they're on our program.

I always say to people, look, I will try to tell your side of the story. If you're not here, it's like i'm going to ignore what you have to say, but you're going to do a Better than I am and you're going to like IT more if you're on here.

sure. And what whenever you're on, you are the focus of the story. The story comes through you.

So, so talking about storytelling, because storytelling was a big part of the way that you like this out. We begin every part of the story, as I said, sort of with me thinking to myself what exactly is going on here and I about half way threw was thinking like, okay, it's going to turn out that we didn't know everything about drain the drain and robbert Robert max oil, you know but john walks both you know that there they're in league together, that there are some kind of criminal conspiracy wrong about that doing had nothing to do with anything.

But what I didn't think was what I was going to learn was that Robert Albert maxim was not really a Robert Robert maxwell. And when you do that thing where the cop shows the photo to the to the x girlfriend a, as soon as I see that, I think, oh my god, it's not the same guy. It's not going to be the same guy. This is great. And I like the storytelling part of me is thinking like, oh, what a good idea like we're going to wait until about half through you to realize, oh yeah, that guy you think we've been pursuing.

he's probably dead. That's right. That's yeah that can together rather .

ni and that's the kind of twist that that that our audience expects from us and from you.

That's a rase. You have registered yourself.

haven't a line to register. I have not one of the things getting back again to technology, you know uh all those csi type shows on television have persuaded the audience that you can give somebody the grainy black and White video tape of the person stick in their head of the duster and or the guy walking by the duster, and that a computer can tell you who that is. Can polluter .

drivers .

lizer the picture exist? At least not yet, maybe maybe within in our lifetimes. But IT doesn't exist right now.

However, comparing two drivers license photos, that does exist. And in this case, that that made a giant difference. And they can do IT with like other kinds of photos too, like, you know.

passport photos, right? right?

Those cops are um uh are they convinced that they have found the last of Jason statements victims that IT was only rubber Robert maxwell and that and poor doing. I don't think .

that they would they would sort of that let's know where that focuses. They would still love to know what happened to Robert maxwell um as much as anything so that they can let his family know and you know maybe someday we'll find out. So I think IT would require some CoOperation from a man who is not .

CoOperate at all. I mean, there's doesn't persuade him to CoOperate. He's not no, it's not like he wants to see his family more because I get the feeling bromly nobody y's going to visit him.

not.

How do canadian prisons compare with prisons in the united states? I'm guessing, i'm guessing they're probably nicer.

but I don't know. I mean, they run the gaming. I think there are some that have a terrible reputation, others not so much.

First, we don't do them. Many stories in canada .

is one of the main reasons we don't is not because there are canadian stories, but because the canadian system of justice is is I want to see more protective of the process ah. So getting media access is is not a not an easy thing to do. So frequently were shut down when we want to do a story about A H A crime. The sea in canada, I I I want to say that loosen up some in recent years, but IT still tends to be somewhat difficult process.

So me like like court access for taking pictures of trials, like that's not a guaranteed thing the way frequently.

No, hello.

i've learned a lot about canada by being friends with you, really? Yes, it's a well, it's a nation of extremely nice, extremely civil and extremely self of facing people. You know, opposite for me in other words, yeah in other words, very much not like me but yeah yeah you you're a nice guy, say to say, okay, the keys and I will be back to talk about other episodes and i'll be further complimenting keys and he'll be evading responsibility for having done anything wonderful in in future episodes. And I want to say this because we were talking about IT earlier.

If you or someone you know is experiencing domestic violence, you can call the national domestic violence hotline at one eight hundred seven nine nine safe that's one eight hundred seven nine, nine seven, two three three or visit W W W dot, the hot line dot O R G. Thanks for listings. keep. Thank you and a .

delight is always yeah .

I wish I believe any part of that. So you guys fridays on date line on B.

Hey, i'm your shahid, and i'm the host of the optimistic project. This is the podcast that asks what gives you hope. Each week I sit down with change makers you may or may not know from comedy, music, academia and more to uncover what inspires them to create a Better tomorrow.

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