EP47：How to Win Friends: Carnegie's Enduring Wisdom
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Welcome, curious minds, to The Deep Dive. Today we're digging into a book that, well, it didn't just become a classic, it arguably created a whole genre. We're talking about Dale Carnegie's How to Win Friends and Influence People. That's the one. Our mission today is pretty clear. Let's pull up the key practical strategies from this really influential work shared by a listener, by the way, that can genuinely change how we interact with people.

Maybe in ways you haven't thought about. Yeah. And what's amazing is how relevant it still is. I mean, 1936 it first came out. Wow. That long ago. Right. And it's still a bestseller translated into, well, almost every language you can think of. The title itself is practically a household phrase now. You see it quoted, parodied. Everywhere. Political cartoons, novels. Exactly. That tells you something, doesn't it? It touches a nerve. It really does. And you have to remember, back in 36, self-improvement books.

That wasn't really a category. Not at all. People mostly thought popularity, you know, being good with people was just something innate. You either had it or you didn't. Right. Carnegie didn't necessarily invent all the underlying psychology. No, but he totally changed how it was presented, how it was taught. He basically laid the groundwork for, well, a lot of the personal development stuff we see today. He really did. And he tapped into something people deeply wanted. There's this big two-year survey called

University of Chicago and the YMCA schools did it. Okay. They went to this town, Meriden, Connecticut, supposed to be a typical American town, and asked nearly every adult...

156 questions. Exhaustive. Wow. What did they find? Well, after basic health, the number one thing adults cared about wasn't money, not exactly status, but people. People. How so? How to understand them, you know, how to get along, how to make people like you, and crucially, how to win them over to your way of thinking. There was this huge unmet need. So Carnegie saw this need

How did he figure out his methods? He wasn't just thinking it up, right? No, not at all. He was practical. He went out and interviewed tons of successful people. I mean, big names. Marconi, Edison. Inventors, yeah. And political figures like FDR, cultural icons like Helen Keller, Clark Gable. He wanted to know what they actually did in their relationships. Okay, so real world examples. Exactly. Then he boiled it down into a talk, which grew into like

A 90-minute lecture. But here's the key part, the revolutionary bit. What's that? He told people, don't just listen. Go try this stuff in your business, in your home. Then come back and tell us what happened. Ah, like an experiment. Precisely. He called it a laboratory of adult human relationships. The only one at the time.

The book literally grew out of thousands of those real experiences. It wasn't just theory spun out of thin air. That makes a huge difference. It's tested. It really does. And it highlights something crucial about learning this stuff. Bernard Shaw said, if you teach a man anything, he will never learn.

Interesting. What does that mean here? It means you can't just read the book and expect things to change. It's active. You have to form new habits. Carnegie calls it a new way of life. So it takes work, persistence, daily effort. Absolutely. You have to do it for it to stick. It's about changing behavior, not just acquiring information. Okay. So if we're talking about a new way of life...

Where does Carnegie start? What's the foundation? He drills right down to what he sees as a core human drive, something Freud and John Dewey also talked about.

This desire to be great or desire to be important. Important. Not just ego though. No, he frames it as deeper than that. Like a fundamental human hunger. As basic as needing food or sleep. It drives so much of our behavior. And he gives examples of this. Oh yeah, fascinating ones. Even like notorious criminals. Al Capone, Tugan Crowley, Dutch Schultz. They didn't see themselves as bad guys. Really?

How did they see themselves? As public benefactors, believe it or not, or fundamentally kind-hearted deep down. They rationalized everything. Lewis Laws, the warden at Sing Sing for years, confirmed it. Very few criminals he met actually thought they were bad people. That's startling. It shows how powerful that drive is. And it's not just criminals. Washington wanted titles like His Mightiness. Columbus wanted Admiral of the Ocean. Even Catherine the Great, Mrs. Lincoln,

Seeking recognition. So it's universal. To the point where, tragically, some medical folks believe people could literally go insane to find that feeling of importance in fantasy if reality denied it. It's that deep. Wow. That really puts it in perspective. So it's this fundamental dream. Right. And Carnegie makes this great contrast. Think about John D. Rockefeller and John Dillinger. Okay.

OK. Polar opposites. Both, Carnegie argues, were driven by that desire for importance. Rockefeller sought it through, you know, massive philanthropy, building things. Dillinger sought it through crime, infamy. So it's not the drive itself, but how you try to satisfy it. Right. That defines your character. Exactly. And that leads directly into a really key distinction Carnegie makes.

Honest appreciation versus, well, flattery. Okay, what's the difference for him? Flattery is just cheap praise. It's shallow, selfish, insincere. He calls it counterfeit money.

Counterfeit money. I like that. Yeah. And he says it rarely works on anyone with any sense and it'll usually backfire eventually. Even King George V apparently had a saying against cheap praise. So avoid flattery. What's the alternative? True appreciation. Yeah. Which is totally different. It's sincere. It comes from genuinely recognizing someone's value or effort. And that, Carnegie says, satisfies that deep, gnawing and unfaltering human hunger for importance.

And this genuine appreciation, it actually works. Oh, absolutely. Think about Charles Schwab paid over a million a year, which was astronomical back then. Right. What was his secret?

Steal expertise. He said himself, no. His real talent was his ability to arouse enthusiasm in people. How? By being hardy in his approbation and lavish in his praise, he genuinely appreciated his team. So it motivated them, made them want to do better. Exactly. Or, uh, Florin Ziegfeld, the Broadway guy. He glorified the American girl. He took women who might have seemed average and made them feel like stars. Captivating. He tapped into their need to feel important. Making them feel seen and valued.

Right. Even Alfred Lunt, the famous actor, admitted, "There is nothing I need so much as nourishment for my self-esteem. It's a universal need." It really makes you think. We feed our bodies every day. But how often do we consciously feed someone's self-esteem?

with just a few sincere words. Words that, as Carnegie says, might sing in their memories for years. That's powerful. It's not manipulation, it's recognition. Exactly. Recognizing that deep human need. Okay, so we understand this core hunger for importance and the power of appreciation. How do we use this to actually, you know, build rapport? Make people genuinely like us?

Well, Carnegie lays out some principles. The first and maybe the most foundational is be genuinely interested in other people. Sounds simple, maybe too simple. It does. But think about it. How often do we really do it? Howard Thurston, the famous magician. Yeah. Before every single show, he'd repeat to himself, I love my audience. I love my audience. And he meant it. That feeling projected. So it's an internal state that affects the external interaction. Right. Yeah.

Or George Dyke, this guy who found joy in retirement just by getting genuinely interested in other fiddlers. Listening to them, learning their stories, it opened up a whole new world for him just by shifting focus outward. And this works in business too. Definitely. Edward Sykes, the salesman, saved a big drugstore account.

He started by just chatting with the soda clerks, the sales staff, showing interest in them before he even talked to the boss. Built goodwill from the ground up. Exactly. It works. Yeah. And then there's another simple but incredibly powerful tool. What's that? Remember that a person's name is to that person the sweetest and most important sound and

any language. The name principle. That one feels true. It's huge. Jim Farley, the political operator, figured this out early. People care more about their own name than all the other names put together. Remember it. Use it. You've paid a compliment. Forget it. Misspell it. Big disadvantage. Can you give an example? The story of Sid Levy and Mr. Nicodemus Papadoulos. Great name. Most people just called him Nick. But Levy made the effort to learn and use his full name.

Papa Dulos was apparently moved to tears, said nobody in 15 years in the U.S. had bothered to use his real name. Wow. Just for using his name correctly. It shows you see them as an individual. Andrew Carnegie, the steel guy. Yeah, you mentioned him. He wasn't a steel expert, but a leadership genius. Knew how to handle people. Even as a kid, he named his pet rabbits after the neighborhood kids who helped feed them.

He learned early the power of a name, later used it to smooth over business conflicts. So it makes people feel unique, recognized. Totally. Your name is yours alone. Remembering it matters. Okay, so genuine interest, remembering names. What's next for building that connection? This one's crucial. Be a good listener. Encourage others to talk about themselves. Listening.

Sounds easy, but probably isn't. It's harder than it looks. Carnegie tells this story about being at a dinner party, talking to a botanist for hours. Carnegie himself barely said a word about botany. He just listened intently, asked questions, showed genuine interest. Afterwards, the botanist told the host that Carnegie was a most interesting conversationalist. Even though he barely talked. Exactly, because he made the other person feel interesting.

Charles W. Eliot, former Harvard president, said, "Exclusive attention to the person who is speaking. Nothing else is so flattering." That makes sense. Giving someone your full attention is rare. And valuable. Think about disputes. Mr. Detmer listened to an angry customer for three hours straight. Just listen. Let the guy talk himself out. And it completely resolved the issue. Three hours. That's patience. But it worked.

Isaac Markeson, the journalist who interviewed tons of famous people, said the VIPs often told him they preferred good listeners to good talkers. Interesting.

Why do you think that is? Because most people are wrapped up in themselves. As Dr. Nicholas Murray Butler put it, people who talk only of themselves think only of themselves. Listening shows you care about them. Okay, so being interested, using names, listening. What else? Talk in terms of the other person's interests. This is key for influence. So focus on what they

what they care about, not just what you want. Precisely. Think of Emerson trying to get that calf into the barn. Pushing and pulling, focusing on his goal didn't work. The maid understood what the calf wanted, sucking her finger and let it right in. Right, the calf's interest. Or getting a kid excited about kindergarten.

Standovac didn't order his son Tim to go. He talked about finger painting, making new friends, things Tim would find exciting. Frame it from their perspective. Carnegie did this himself, negotiating that hotel rent. He faced a massive increase. Instead of arguing about his budget, he talked only about how the increase would affect the manager's interests, the hotel's reputation, vacancy rates. And at work. Got the increase reduced significantly.

because he framed it around what the other person valued. It's about seeing their world. - It seems like a powerful shift in perspective. - It is. Michael Winnin used it to fix a problem with a rundown gas station. Instead of ordering the manager to clean up, he showed him photos of a brand new successful station tapping into the manager's own desire for improvement and pride.

Made him want to fix it. Inspire them by connecting to their interests. Exactly. It's way more effective than just talking about what you want. Like the guy trying to get people to play basketball by only talking about how much he wanted to play. Futile. Okay. These principles for making people like you interest names listening, their interests seem really practical. But what about when things get tougher?

when you need to win someone over to your way of thinking, especially if there's disagreement. Right. This is where it gets tricky. Because, as Carnegie stresses, human interactions are often driven more by emotion, pride, ego than pure logic. So arguing facts might not be the best approach. Often, it's the worst. Which leads to the first principle here: the only way to get the best of an argument is to avoid it. Avoid it altogether. But what if you're right? Carnegie shares a story where he was right.

He corrected someone about a quote at a dinner party. Later, his friend told him, "Why prove to a man he's wrong? Is that going to make him like you?" Hmm. Good point. You might win the point, but lose the relationship. Exactly. Ben Franklin said something similar. "You can win an argument, but it's an empty victory if you lose the other person's goodwill."

People dig in when they feel attacked. It becomes about defending their self-esteem. We cling to my ideas, my beliefs. Right. James Harvey Robinson pointed out, we form beliefs often for personal reasons, then spend our time finding arguments to justify them. Being told you're wrong feels like a personal threat. So direct contradiction usually backfires. Almost always. Better to find common ground or just let it go if it's not crucial. Okay. Avoid arguments. Hmm.

But what if you are genuinely wrong? Ah, then the principle is just as counterintuitive but powerful. If you are wrong, admit it quickly and emphatically. Don't hedge or make excuses. No, just own it. Quickly, fully, and

Carnegie says this takes all the fight out of the other person. It diffuses the situation immediately. Like that story of the father admitting his fault finding. Exactly. His quick, emphatic admission to his son just opened the door to reconciliation. No defense, just honesty. It clears the air. Okay, so avoid arguments if possible. Admit mistakes quickly if necessary. How do you proactively start persuading someone? A great starting point is begin in a friendly way.

Sounds obvious, maybe, but the tone you set initially is huge. Like Woodrow Wilson's point, fists up, invites fists about. Precisely. If you approach someone ready for a fight, that's likely what you'll get. But if you approach them in a spirit of cooperation, let us sit down and take counsel, you open the door to finding common ground. Like Carnegie starting that rent negotiation by praising the hotel. Yes. Setting that positive, friendly tone right away made the difficult conversation much easier and more productive.

Friendliness begets friendliness. And then, once you've started friendly... A really effective technique is: get the other person saying "yes, yes" immediately. The Socratic method, essentially. Asking questions they have to agree with. Right. Find points of common ground, things they already believe, and get them nodding along. Build a foundation of agreement. Like that Westinghouse salesman, Joseph Allison. Exactly. Couldn't sell motors for years because he argued. Then he shifted.

Got the engineer agreeing on basic industry standards? Yes, yes. And suddenly the resistance melted away. That momentum of agreement is powerful. Creates a positive psychological current. It really does. And alongside getting those yeses, another key is let the other person do a great deal of the talking. Let them talk, even when you're trying to persuade them. Especially then, people want to feel heard. And frankly, when our friends excel us, we often feel small.

But when we let them talk about their accomplishments, their ideas, they feel important. So resist the urge to dominate the conversation with your own points. Yes. Be modest. Encourage them. Barbara Wilson finally connected with her rebellious daughter, Lori, not by lecturing more, but by finally just listening and letting Lori pour out her feelings.

Listening built the bridge. Listening creates space for connection. Absolutely. And closely related is let the other person feel that the idea is his or hers. Make them think they came up with it. Isn't that manipulative?

Not necessarily. It's about guiding, suggesting, asking questions, planting seeds, rather than imposing your solution. People naturally trust and champion ideas they feel they discovered or co-created. Okay, I see. Like Adolf Seltz, the sales manager. Right. Instead of dictating expectations, he asked his struggling team what they expected from him and what he had a right to expect from them. They essentially created the plan together. Morale and sales shot up because they owned it. They felt ownership.

Or Eugene Wesson, the salesman who failed for three years to sell sketches. Finally, he brought in some unfinished ones, asked the client to finish them with his input. The client felt it was his creation, bought them, and became a regular customer. Let them take the lead, subtly. It's about respecting their intelligence and creativity, which ties into the next big one.

Try, honestly, to see things from the other person's point of view. Empathy, basically. Deep empathy. Really try to understand why they think or feel the way they do. It saves so much friction. Sam Douglas and his wife's gardening. Right, he stopped criticizing when he considered her enjoyment. Exactly. He didn't have to agree that gardening was fun for him, but he understood it might be for her. That shift changed everything.

Compliments replaced criticism. Understanding precedes influence. Absolutely. And building on that understanding is be sympathetic with the other person's ideas and desires. Sympathetic. Even if you disagree. Yes. Acknowledge their feelings as valid from their perspective. Carnegie suggests saying something like, I don't blame you one iota for feeling as you do. If I were you, I would undoubtedly feel just as you do. And you can mean that sincerely. You can because

Because if you truly had their exact background, temperament, experiences, you likely would feel the same. It acknowledges their reality without necessarily agreeing with their conclusions. Think about Al Capone, if you had his upbringing. Who knows? So it's about validating their feelings. Right.

Carnegie turned that angry listener about the Louisa May Alcott mistake into a friend simply by apologizing and sympathizing with her justified indignation. He validated her feelings. That makes sense. It lowers defenses. Tremendously.

Or Jay, the escalator guy. He got the hotel manager to agree to a longer shutdown by sympathizing with the manager's desire for minimal disruption, but framing the longer repair as preventing more disruption later. He appealed to the manager's own concerns. Okay, sympathy is powerful. What about appealing to higher values? That's the next one. Appeal to the nobler motives. Assume people want to be fair, honest, and honorable, even when their actions suggest otherwise. Give them the benefit of the doubt. And appeal to that better nature.

James L. Thomas collected uncollectible debts by sending someone to interview customers, saying he knew they were fair and patient, and asking them to suggest a fair payment plan. He appealed to their sense of honor. And they responded. Often, yes. People like to live up to a positive image someone holds of them. Interesting.

What about making your ideas more engaging? Dramatize your ideas. We live in an age of drama. Just stating a truth isn't always enough. You have to make it vivid, interesting, dramatic. Like show, don't just tell. Exactly. The sales manager selling yeast didn't just list facts.

He dramatized the science, made the invisible process exciting, turning a mundane product into something compelling. Make it memorable. Right. And finally, for really motivating people, throw down a challenge. A challenge, like competition. Sometimes. Charles Schwab boosted mill production by simply drawing the output numbers for the day and night shifts on the floor with chalk. Six verse five.

It sparked a friendly rivalry, a challenge to do better. Tapping into that desire to excel. Or when Al Smith convinced Louis Laws to take the tough job as warden of Sing Sing Prison, he didn't just offer the job, he framed it as a challenge. It'll take a big person to go up there and stay. That challenge appealed to Laws' spirit. Fascinating. So it's about understanding motivation. Deeply. Okay, we've covered winning people over. What about leadership?

Specifically, how to change people's behavior or correct mistakes without causing resentment. That feels like a minefield. It can be. Absolutely.

But Carnegie offers principles here too. A crucial starting point is: begin with praise and honest appreciation. Start positive, even if you have criticism. Yes, always. It's like the barber lathering the face before the shave. Praise prepares the person, makes them more receptive, less defensive. Examples. William McKinley, running for president, got a speech draft he didn't like. Instead of tearing it apart, he praised its good points first, then indirectly suggested it wasn't quite right for a speech, maybe better as a written article.

gentle redirection. Or, Linker's famous letter to General Hooker. It contained sharp criticism, yes, but it started with praise for Hooker's bravery and skill. It softened the blow and maintained respect. So praise first. Then, how do you actually point out the mistake? Preferably, call attention to people's mistakes indirectly. Direct criticism often wounds pride and breeds resentment.

A subtle hint, a question, is often more effective. Like McKinley suggesting this speech was a good article. Exactly. Not, this speech is bad, but suggesting a different, more suitable context. It allows the person to see the issue without feeling directly attacked. And even better, perhaps. Talk about your own mistakes before criticizing the other person.

This is incredibly disarming. Show humility first. Right. Saying something like, you know, I've made similar errors myself. It shows you're not claiming perfection, makes you relatable and makes the other person much less defensive about their own mistake. Like that engineer who admitted his own drawing error first. Yes. His honesty and humility actually won him more business. It built trust rather than damaging it. OK, so praise first. Hint indirectly. Admit your own faults. What about how you ask for change? This is key.

Ask questions instead of giving direct orders. Why is that better? It respects the other person's intelligence and autonomy. Orders can feel demeaning. Questions invite cooperation and make the person feel part of the decision. Owen D. Young, the RCA founder, apparently never gave direct orders. Always suggestions. You might consider this or do you think that would work? It saved pride,

Stimulated creativity, fostered buy-in. Makes sense. It's more collaborative. Exactly. Like the teacher, Dan Centorelli, getting the student to move his illegally parked car. He didn't yell orders. He asked questions. What could happen if you leave it there? The student figured it out himself. Empowering, not commanding.

And related to that, preserving dignity. Crucial. Let the other person save face. Never humiliate someone even when they're wrong or need to be corrected or moved. Find a way to preserve their dignity. How did GE handle Steinmetz? Charles Steinmetz, the genius engineer, terrible manager,

Instead of just demoting him, GD gave him a fancy new title: "Consulting Engineer," essentially for the work he was already doing brilliantly while removing him from management duties. He kept his status, his pride. Clever. Saved face. Or the accountant, Marshall Granger, laying off seasonal workers. He didn't just give them bad news. He took time to praise their specific contributions during the season, expressing confidence in their future.

It cushioned the blow significantly. Treat people with respect, even in tough situations. Always. And when you want to encourage improvement, praise the slightest improvement and praise every improvement. Be hearty in your approbation and lavish in your praise. So focus on the positive reinforcement like BF Skinner taught. Exactly. Catch people doing something right, even small things, and praise it specifically.

It reinforces the desired behavior far more effectively than criticizing the negative. Criticism makes people defensive. Praise makes them want to do more of the good stuff. Like Keith Roper with the new printer. Yeah.

The printer had a bad attitude but did one job exceptionally well. Roper jumped on that, praised the quality specifically. The printer's whole attitude and performance turned around. Amazing what specific praise can do. Or Mrs. Hopkins transforming terrible Tommy by giving him a reputation as a leader and then praising every tiny step he took in that direction. He started living up to it. Which leads right into... Give the other person a fine reputation to live up to. Like Shakespeare said, assume a virtue if you have it not. Pretty much.

If you treat someone as if they already possess the trait you want them to develop, they will often make prodigious efforts to justify that faith. Give them a reputation for being careful or diligent or fair. And they'll try to embody it. Often, yes. Dr. Fitzhugh got his cleaning man to do a much better job simply by praising the fine job he was already doing and then suggesting he take extra time for occasional deep cleaning, framing him as meticulous. Set the bar high with encouragement. Right.

And make it seem achievable. Make the fault seem easy to correct. Don't overwhelm people with the scale of the problem. Minimize the difficulty. Emphasize their ability to fix it. Like your dancing teacher. Ah, yeah. Telling me I had a natural sense of rhythm when I clearly didn't. But it made me want to try harder because it felt possible, not hopeless. Confidence is key.

or Ely Culbertson's wife telling him he had a flair for bridge. Exactly. That belief helped launch his career. And Clarence Jones' son, David, who was way behind in school. The perceived brain injury.

Right. But his dad encouraged him, taught him multiplication simply, made learning seem easy. And the kid blossomed, even won a science award. Making it seem doable unlocked his potential. Incredible. Finally, how do you make people want to do what you suggest? Make the other person happy about doing the thing you suggest. Frame it in terms of their benefits, their desires, their importance. Appeal to their self-interest, but in a positive way. Yes.

Colonel House convinced William Jennings Bryan not to go on a trip by suggesting Bryan was actually too important for the mission, that it would attract too much unwanted attention. Flattering, but effective.

It aligned with Brian's ego. Clever framing. Or Napoleon motivating his troops with titles and medals, toys, he called them. But he understood that men are ruled by toys, by symbols of recognition and importance. Find what makes them happy about doing it. Like Mrs. Gent solving her trespassing problem by making the worst offender her official detective in charge of keeping others off the lawn. Gave him responsibility, importance, and made him happy to do what she wanted. Wow.

That's quite a tool set for leadership. It really is, based on understanding human nature. What an incredible journey through this book. You know, from those early YMCA classes to training people at huge companies like Westinghouse, GE, millions worldwide. Carnegie's impact is just undeniable. It really is. And it hammers home that these ideas, they aren't just clever tricks. They're presented as a new way of life, right? Yeah.

based on some fundamental truths about people. Absolutely. And Carnegie himself points out the core ideas aren't even his originally. They're ancient.

That golden rule principle, do unto others as you would have others do unto you. Yeah. Variations of that were taught centuries earlier by Zoroaster, Confucius, Lao Tzu, Buddha, and Hinduism by Jesus. It's timeless, universal. Treat others with respect. Try to see their perspective. It's just fundamental human wisdom packaged effectively. Exactly. So for everyone listening.

What's the takeaway? Applying this stuff isn't always easy, is it? No, it takes conscious effort. Like Carnegie said, time and persistence and daily application. You have to practice it. But the potential payoff seems huge. Better relationships, more success. Definitely. And maybe a final thought to leave people with is,

If knowledge, as they say, only really sticks when you use it, what might happen if you picked just one of these principles, maybe genuine appreciation or really listening or seeing things from their view, and consciously tried to apply it in every interaction you have for the next week? Just one principle for one week. Yeah. What hidden miracles, as Carnegie might put it, could you unlock in your family, at work, by really trying to inspire others to see the hidden treasures they possess? Makes you think, doesn't it?