WAGNER MOURA — on joining ‘Dope Thief’ last minute and bonding with co-star Brian Tyree Henry
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Hi, it's Jesse. ♪

Today on the show, you know him as Pablo Escobar on the hit Netflix series Narcos, as Joel in Alex Garland's Civil War, and more recently as protagonist Manny in the Apple Plus series Dope Thief. It's Wagner Mora. I love telenovelas. Yeah, okay. And it's just the best way to decompress is to see like those evil characters saying evil things and really wanting to fuck up the lives of other people. This is Dinners on Me, and I'm your host, Jesse Tyler Ferguson.

It won't come as a surprise to anyone listening, but I absolutely loved being a part of Modern Family. Yes, it was incredible to work on a show that people genuinely loved watching. And yes, it was lovely to be recognized with awards. But more than that, it was a rare and special thing. It was a lightning in a bottle. In an industry where finding consistent work is tough, landing a job on a hit show is a once-in-a-lifetime blessing.

What made it even more meaningful was the social impact that Modern Family had, especially within the LGBTQ community. When the show premiered, only a handful of states had legalized same-sex marriage. And over time, Modern Family became more than just a popular sitcom. It became a cultural touchstone, a reflection of shifting values, and in some ways, a catalyst for change.

It's a rare and beautiful thing when the work we do as artists aligns with the world we hope to help build. Wagner Mora is someone else who seems to have cracked that code, whether through great choices or great luck. Actually, probably both.

He's an actor who doesn't just take on roles. He takes on missions. His work is packed with social and political meaning, and he brings a kind of fire to his role that makes you really pay attention. Take Narcos, for example. Wagner didn't just play Pablo Escobar. He basically earned a second diploma in Spanish to do it.

As a native Portuguese speaker, he didn't just learn the lines phonetically. He dove in headfirst, committed to getting the nuance, the rhythm, the danger, and yes, even the dad bod energy of Escobar just right. That's dedication. And now, in his new Apple Plus series, Dope Thief, he's continuing that tradition, playing another layered, morally complicated character that reflects the same passion he brings to his activism—

Mora has this incredible ability to take on roles that are gritty, real, and rooted in the bigger questions while still keeping you glued to the screen. At the end of the day, we all hope our work can be more than just entertainment. We hope it can spark conversations, open minds, and maybe once in a while help push the world in a slightly better direction. Wagner Mora certainly does that. Hi, how are you? Hi, how are you?

Thanks for coming to the support of the film. Are you kidding me? I brought Wagner Mora to Milo & Olive in Santa Monica. Milo & Olive is the cozy, cool Santa Monica spot from the husband and wife team, Chef Zoe Nathan and Josh Loeb, who also helm sister restaurants Huckleberry and Rustic Canyon.

Known for Zoey's legendary 48-hour pizza dough, listen, you have to order a pizza, and head baker Andrea's crave-worthy breads and pastries, Milo and Olive is all about seasonal local goodness and laid-back vibes. Not to mention it made the Michelin Guide in 2021, 22, and 23. This was my first time meeting Wagner after being a longtime admirer of his work, and I can't think of a better way to spark a new friendship than by sharing a pepperoni pizza.

Okay, let's get to the conversation. I'm single parenting my kids this week. I'm along with three dudes. I'm happy to come over here. I mean, I'm a parent myself, so I know. I know. How old are your kids? Four and a half and two and a half. How about yours? Three. Yeah.

My oldest is 18, then I have another guy, he's 14, and my youngest is 12. - So you must have had kids young. - Yeah, I was 30. I'm 48. I was 30. - I mean, I'm 50. How am I older than you when I have younger children? - I mean, can I say, I think that I'm a way better father now.

- Yeah. - Than I was when I was 30. - Yeah. - Way better. - Well, I think I am having kids at the right time. - Yeah. - But you know, you met your wife in college, right? - Yeah. - So you had a good, maybe 10 years, eight years before having kids? - Five. - Five years, okay. - Five years. - But it is interesting, I always think about that. - And we'll just go like, oh, I remember when it was just the two of us. - I know. - And we could do whatever the fuck

- Exactly, travel anywhere. - Traveling. Oh, let's go to another state. Let's travel internationally. When? Tomorrow? Let's just, let's do it. Now it's like we used to be like a boat and now we are like a Titanic. We move like. - I know, so slow, yeah. I get it, yeah. - Hello. - Hi. - Hey, welcome. - Hey, thank you. How are you? - I'm doing good, I'm doing good. Can I get you guys started with any drinks?

I'll have some just sparkling water with some squeezed lemon if you could. With some lemon? Yeah. Yeah, you got it. I'm going to actually have your Mexican Sprite with grenadine. I love that. Shirley Temple. I haven't had a Shirley Temple in so long, but Mexican Sprite I haven't had in...

That's like with the real sugar, right? Yes. With the extra sugar on top of it. I will. I will. But at some point, I think I'll have a glass of Cabernet. Oh yeah, we have a good one. At some point. At some point. At some point. It's gonna come. At some point, just bring it over. Have you been here? I walked in here, I was like, why is this place giving me deja vu?

Like about five or six years ago, I had a little bit of skin cancer on my face. It was here and I had to get it removed. But like,

It was when I was shooting Modern Family still, so I couldn't let them shave my face. They shaved a little patch of my beard off, and then they cut out the skin cancer piece, and then they check the perimeter of what they've taken off to make sure that that's cancer-free. And if it is, then they can stitch you up, but it takes a while to test the sample that they've taken. So I was starving. I was across the street. I basically had a chunk of my cheek taken off. They slapped some gauze on my face, taped me up, and I came over here and ate...

ate some pizza and had a glass of wine at the bar. - That's exactly what we're having. - Yeah. - This is it. Jesse, this is it. Pizza and wine. - And then I got like a text message from there like, "It's all clear." So I went back across the street, got stitched up. - So there is a memory for here. - Yeah, the funny thing was because they had shaved off a bit of my beard and then also I had stitches on my face and I'm still shooting Modern Family. They made like a little patch of hair

that they basically taped to my beard and it was like always flapping around. I have actually seen those episodes every once in a while. It looks like they have like strange, weird, hairy growth coming out. - Do you go back to Modern Family? Like do you watch, like sometimes you go like, "I'm gonna watch this episode." - If it's on, like if I'm in a hotel or something and I like pass by, I'll sometimes stop for a little while just to see if I can remember like,

what was happening and also if i'm on a plane and i see people watching it across the way has that ever happened to you where someone's watching like narcos on the plane i know i have never i guess narcos isn't really a play that doesn't give you a lot of peace in the air you know you need to watch something comforting like modern family if you're flying you look so different from every other role i've seen you play you're kind of a chameleon in a way that i wasn't really expecting

Obviously in Narcos you looked totally different. I'm glad that you say that I'm different from that. I know you had gained weight for that. That was great. But then I was watching Dope Thief. But you look so different in that too than you do right now. You look completely different. Yeah. Yeah, we like to play with the different looks and hair. Yeah, well you're a theater guy, right? Yeah. Yeah. I'm going to do theater this year. And I'm very excited about it. But I'm...

Also terrified. Yeah, because it's less less play that I did was in 2009 What was it Hamlet just a little play called Hamlet, but it was my last experience on stage Wow, so yeah, it's been a while. So what's what's your next one? It's an adaptation of enemy of the people. It's not the play Wow the Ipsen play not Ipsen's play per se but it's gonna be like an adaptation doing this back in Brazil

Starting in Brazil and then do the whole Europe. Avignon, Edinburgh, all those European festivals. Did you happen to see Jeremy Strong do it on Broadway? Yeah, yeah. Really liked it. Really liked it. I really liked it. Jeremy Strong is...

- So, so great. - Yeah. - Yeah. - Are you in the mood for pizza or? - Yes, yes. - What kind of pizza do you like? - You really can't go wrong with any pizza. Start at the dough. It's all farm to table ingredients. My personal favorite is the margarita, but any of the pizzas are really good. The mixed mushroom is a really great white pizza if you're in the mood for that. Our traditional pepperoni pizza is really delicious, our cup pepperoni. Some of the best pizza you'll find in the world in my opinion.

- And it's like, should we share pizzas? - Yeah, everything at this restaurant is meant to be shared. The pizzas are 12 inches, six slices each. Every dish on the menu is perfect for two to three people. - Okay. Do you eat pepperoni? - I do, I love pepperoni. - Yeah, so should we have, can you have like half something or half something or just one? - Yeah, you can do half if the sauce is the same. If you couldn't do a half white, half red. But you could do half pepperoni, half margarita. - Let's do that. - Okay. - Let's do that. - Okay.

A side of the hot honey. A side of hot honey and pizza? Yeah. Awesome. Thank you. You're so lovely. Now for a quick break, but don't go away. When we come back, Wagner tells me about the hilarious circumstances under which he met Dope Thief executive producer Ridley Scott for the first time and shares a bonding moment he had with his Dope Thief co-star, Brian Tyree Henry. Okay, be right back. All right, let's talk about something near and dear to my heart.

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There's no safe like SimpliSafe. And we're back with more Dinners on Me. I'm excited about this Enemy of the People adaptation. That's really exciting. It's such a political play. Yeah. And it's so timely. You...

tend to lean toward very political pieces, you know, I think in film and in television and now in theater as well. Civil War, the film that you did, being incredibly political and, you know, a lot of the themes in Narcos and now, you know, in Dope Thief, which I'm so excited for people to see. It's so good. Ridley Scott, right? Yeah, it was such a, you know, I was like, at some point I was like, oh my God. There was a moment where I got there

and they had to dye my hair because I had to look younger. Yeah. And then I was in the makeup trailer with the hairdresser and he entered. It took us like an hour, right? Yeah. So it was like

This hair person, Shanika, myself, and fucking Ridley Scott. Man, I was asking him all the questions that us fans have. All the stupid, crazy questions. And he was so gracious and so lovely in answering everything. The sense of humor is very funny. And you know the thing I really liked about him is everything for him is like, fuck you.

Fuck it, you know? He doesn't care. He doesn't care about people. - He's earned it though. I mean, also, I think it's a conscious effort to like get to that place where you just do things that are meaningful to you. I feel like as an observer of your career, you have been doing that. It seems like you do stuff that you want to do and stuff that resonates with you. I mean, have you ever done something that doesn't feel like it's like an extension of kind of your beliefs and who you are? - Yeah, I really take care of that, Jesse. But sometimes also, for example,

Dope Thief, for me, I saw the political aspects of it, which interested me, like a Latino and a black dude. There are usually, it's a cliche, but when you get closer to the characters, you see that the characters are the opposite of the cliche, of the stereotype. They're very vulnerable people. They don't want to be there. Many people, like in poor people in Brazil, in the countries that produce drugs or that...

could have another life. They could, they could, they could. If the system wasn't so brutal, they could have another life. And that was like, oh, this is politically interesting. How you want to do it? These characters are interesting. They're not like the cliche of the macho testosterone action. There was a lot of tenderness and it's a love story between two friends. That's exactly right, yeah. But also there was a component that really made me do it, of course.

I wanted to work with Ridley, I wanted to work with Peter Craig and Brian. - Yeah, Brian Tyree Henry. - Brian Tyree Henry. - Tyree Henry from Atlanta. - He's a fucking great actor. - Yeah, he's sort of your co-star on it. - And became a dear friend of mine. - He's incredible. - But there was one thing that I was like, this is interesting, 'cause I got called on a Friday

to hop on an airplane on Saturday, try my costumes on Sunday, and shoot on Monday. - Why was the turnaround so fast? - Because they had another guy. - Oh, this is how you found out you got the job? You found out you got the job on Friday? - They shot the two episodes with another actor, and then they were like, "This is not working." And they needed another actor right away. - Oh my God.

I spoke with Ridley and Peter in the afternoon and I was like, guys, I...

I'm very flattered that you're thinking about me, but I don't think I can do that. I take preparation so seriously, you know? I mean, I'm an actor, I'm a serious actor. But then I was like, maybe this is something that's going to shake me up in a way that I had never experienced before. Like to show up on set, not really knowing the character that I'm playing well, but just like listen to Brian and react to whatever he's saying.

and figure it out while you're doing. Oh, and then, and that's exactly what I was doing. I was like, oh, okay. So I think, oh, so I was understanding. You were playing catch up.

Wait, let me ask you this. When you went into a place, this other actor, had they already shot episode one and two? Yeah. Were they starting again at episode one? They started again. Oh, thank God. I thought you were like popping in on episode three. Oh, no, they reshot the entire thing. I mean, I know eventually they would reshoot it, but like I didn't know where they were in production. So, okay, so you got to start from the beginning of this. They had to reshoot. And then they were like, that's reshoot, that's real fast. And that was pressure for you, too. And Ridley Scott shoots with six cameras on set. So it's the fastest thing. And I did telenovelas in Brazil.

But this was fast. This was really fast. So I was there, like, not really knowing my lines. But it was a great experience. And I think now I go like, "Okay, I think I can do things without that much, you know, effort, that money." I'm listening to the story and I was like, "Okay, I prefer to prepare." -Exactly. -"But I can do it if I have to." -I can do it if I have to. Exactly. I always find the first day on set is so terrifying, even if you're prepared, because you're laying the groundwork for something that you're gonna have to sustain.

And especially if it's a series, it's like eight episodes. It's like, okay, here it is. I'm literally creating the DNA and the blueprint for this character. And hopefully it works out because I'm stuck with it. You can't like change your mind halfway through. - Yeah, exactly. And then I was making these connections. Like he is a guy who spends the entire show trying to get out of that cycle of violence.

He foresees a life for himself. But in order to do that, he has to break up with Ray, who is Brian's character, who is the love of his life. It's just to back up a little bit. I mean, you know, when I watched the first episode of Dope Thief, you're a DEA agent. And I was like, oh, this is interesting. You know, you had just been playing Pablo Escobar for so long. It's like, oh, now he's on the other side of things. And

And you find out within about seven minutes that, oh, you guys are not who you seem to be. And you're pretending to be these agents to go in and steal drugs and money. And it's an incredible twist that happens very early on. But the whole story has these twists. Like you were just saying, it is a love story. It's a show that constantly surprises. And I think, you know, it reminded me a lot of that sort of super classy, edgy...

early aughts dramas that like the HBO was doing like The Wire and even like Six Feet Under like just relationship wise it was a bit of a throwback just in terms of like nuance and complexity that a lot of those shows had that I feel like I don't know I have kind of been missing for a while and this show has a lot of that yeah Peter Craig is like he's such a great writer but honestly man I mean

That dude was the nicest person I've ever met in this industry. - Yeah. - Just a nice, good man. And that was, I would do anything. You know when you know someone, I'll do anything you want me to do. - Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Another beautiful thing that happened is that when I got there, I hadn't, I haven't met Brian before. And I love rehearsals, right? Like, I love, I love to rehearse. Me too. I think rehearsals are so great. Yes. And then we rehearse and then you go to the set and it's just, you just have fun because you don't have the... The anxiety about like... With the other person, personally, like, I mean, so we were playing two guys that were like very, very close. They were really... And I met the guy like

on set with these costumes on. It's so crazy. And then to shoot that very first scene of us in that van and then we were walking to the set and I was like okay this is okay. Brian can you

And I grabbed him and was like, dude, can we go to this green room for a second? So we went to the green room. I locked the door. By the way, if you're on a set and like, there's so many people watching every move. Like if you go to the bathroom, there's people with walkie talkies outside the bathroom waiting for you to come out. So you guys go and lock a door. And people with walkie talkies like...

They're in the green room. They're going rogue. They're just going in the green room. I don't know what's going on. They're in the green room. And then I talked to Dorian. I'm like, just a second. And we sat in front of each other. And I grabbed his hands like this. Grabbed his hands, looked at him. I was like, my name is Wagner and Water.

I'm from Brazil. I have three kids. And I started to talk about myself. I came, I'm scared. This is weird. And you know the beautiful thing about it? He just like this, he looked at me and he said, my name is Brian.

I came from this place, blah, blah, blah. And it was such a vulnerable moment that we shared. - That's sweet. - And we started up with a connection because you know, that's what I feel it really misses. I miss this. - Yeah, well you didn't have any other-- - You're gonna do a scene with someone that's your girlfriend or something and have to touch the person.

And listen, for me, like, this preparation is like, it doesn't take anything away from the freshness of the moment. When you get in the moment, it's another thing. It's something different, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm sure you were just so scared. But isn't, doesn't that feel like, if you're not scared, like, there's no point doing it? There's no point. I mean, but that was like an extra level of... Yeah, but that's different. I was like...

But that also, but you're right, you're right. That was, like I said, that was one of the reasons that I was like, I should do this. - Yeah. - You know, go through this. Honestly, for me, now at this point of my life, the experience of doing it and the things that you learn like this, like, I can do things like this or people that you meet, relationships that you create. - Yeah. - For me right now, that's more important than the result. - Yeah.

I can say this with the bottom of my heart. And of course I want everything that I do to be super successful and great and all that. But the journey, it is indeed the most important thing. Yeah, I agree with that. Can I ask you a little bit about playing Pablo Escobar? I know that you obviously wait for the role and you look so different, but what really fascinates me was how... I mean, he's...

so notorious, so many people have an opinion of him. Finding humanity and sympathy within that character couldn't have always been easy. I mean, it must have taken some creativity on your part to find moments like that.

I researched a lot about him. With that one, I really took my time. I mean, I learned a language to play that character. I read everything that was written about him. I lived in Medellín. I was there. I was talking to people. So I could have a really clear understanding of the man that he was. And he was an evil man, for sure, but he was a human being.

And, you know, this is what we do, right? We see people as people, regardless of what they do, of who they are. He was a family man. He did a lot for his family. He did a lot for poor people in Medellin. Built them houses and things. Might be like for...

personal interest because he wanted to be a politician too. But he did it. - Yeah. - And many people there, many people there. There's an entire neighborhood in Medellin called Barrio Pablo Escobar. If you go there, if you say shit about Pablo, they might kill you. - Wow. - Because they gave the public their houses and their schools and... - I mean, I saw similar themes, you know, when I watched Sofia Vergara at Duke Griselda. You know, she brought a lot of humanity to that part and

there were a lot of people that

that Griselda did help and their lives were made better by her, but it's obviously a lot that she did that hurt people as well. I can't even imagine though learning a new language and being able to create nuance within that language. - Now that's a difficult thing. Until today, for me, it's really, really hard to work in English, in Spanish,

Because when I say something in Portuguese, the words come filled with memory and emotion. It's not the dialect itself. It's not like being able to pronounce the words correctly so people wouldn't go like, what? It's the meaning behind it. It's the meaning. It's the relationship with it. It's hard.

I mean, a really baffling speech. Have you done anything in another language? No. Yeah. No. This is an interesting exercise. It's an interesting thing to do. Now for a quick break, but don't go away. When we come back, Wagner tells me about the crazy carnival night that led to his 24-year-long marriage and why one of his films was censored by his home country. Okay, be right back.

Some of my favorite episodes of Dinners on Me are episodes that happen over a good glass of wine. Patricia Clarkson, Keri Russell, Margo Martindale, they gave me some of the best stories I have ever heard over a glass of wine. They definitely opened up. I mean, maybe it was the food or, you know, maybe it was the wine. I'm just saying. I don't know.

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At Sierra, discover top workout gear at incredible prices, which might lead to another discovery. Your headphones haven't been connected this whole time. Awkward. Discover top brands at unexpectedly low prices. Sierra, let's get moving. And we're back with more Dinners on Me. You know, Jesse, we're about the same age, and I've been thinking a lot about, I don't want to sound creepy or anything, where I want to die. Oh, interesting. You know?

Where do I want to die to spend the last days of my life? And I think this is kind of the age you start thinking about it. I know for sure that I don't want to spend the rest of my life here in Los Angeles, although I love the city, I love living here, my kids love it, but I know that it's not here for me. I don't know exactly what it is. - It's not Los Angeles for me either. - Not for you? Where are you originally from? - I was raised in New Mexico.

but I lived in New York for a while when I was doing theater before I came out here, and I was born in Montana. It's interesting, my mom passed away in November, and she didn't get to travel a lot. - I'm sorry, Joseph. - Thank you, thank you. We just had a service for her a few weekends ago, and she wanted her remains divided up between me and my siblings, so we each have a third of her.

So

I just... This isn't too grim. Take me traveling is so great. So I got... Her urn came in the mail a few days ago and I was...

transferring her ashes into the yarn and I thought, okay, well I needed like a little to-go size portion so I could take, I'm going to take her to London and I'm going to leave her a little bit of her in London. I'm going to take her to New York and leave a little bit of her. So you're going to leave her like, you're going to leave her around the world. That's genius, man. And so, but I couldn't find a container. I thought I had like these old spice containers, like glass spice containers with screw tops.

Couldn't find them, I don't know where they are. So I'm looking through the cabinets, trying to find something to put her in, and everything's either too big or way too small, or looks like it's gonna break.

Anyway, I end up dumping out a bottle of like sprinkles that you put on like a cupcake, like jimmies. You know what I'm talking about? Like, you know, like those rainbow colored jimmies. So I dump out the jimmies and I transfer some of my mom's ashes. And there's even like a few jimmies that are stuck on the bottom. It's like, I'm just going to leave them in there. I love this so much. I feel like my mom would be just like laughing at this situation, like me laughing.

emptying out my cupcake drawer to figure out how to transport her to London. - That's so nice. - But I'm gonna find a little place and just leave her around. She's like, she didn't get to travel a lot. She didn't have a passport. - She didn't get to travel a lot? - No, no.

- She went to-- - Isn't this beautiful? - I love this, I love this for her. - This is beautiful. - Yeah. - I've never heard of it, you know what I mean? It's interesting because people usually like, oh, this is the place that this person loved. The sea or the countryside, blah, blah, blah.

Oh, that's moving. She said like, I want to travel. I want to travel. And she knows I've traveled so much. And she's like, just take me around with you. I think this is beautiful. Thank you. But when you're talking about like where I want to die, it's funny because I've been thinking about that myself a lot because I had that conversation with my mother. Did she live here? She lived here. She lived 10 minutes away from me here, yeah. I moved her here from Albuquerque. To L.A.? To L.A., yeah. So how long have you been living here? Um...

Oh God, it's probably been about 18 or 19 years now. Yeah, so this is... Yeah, it's home. I've lived here longer than I've lived anywhere else I think now at this point. Although I still feel strangely like a visitor, which is why I feel like this is not where I would want to be if I died. I still don't feel an emotional connection to it. My family's here. I started my family here. My kids are here. Obviously, my in-laws are all here.

But yeah, it doesn't feel like this is emotionally where I want to be. Same. Same thing for me. And I don't know exactly which place would be. Could be Brazil? Could be Brazil, could be my hometown Salvador, could be Rio, where I lived for 18 years. But could be also like, man, I did this trip like two months ago in Tuscany. And I'm like...

What's the, remember that film? What's the film? It's like, what's the actress? - "He Pray Love"? - No, "A House in Tuscany". - Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. - You know what I'm talking about? - Yeah, I do. I don't know if that's the name I already talked about. - Who's that actress? It's a famous actress. Diane Lane? - Diane Lane. - Diane Lane. - Yeah. - Diane Lane, she's an American. She goes to Tuscany, she's like, "I think I'm gonna stay here." And she meets this handsome Italian guy.

And that was what I felt. So beautiful, so cultural, and way less expensive than living in this crazy city. But don't get me wrong, I love living in LA. I like LA. My kids love LA, but I don't want to die in LA. Have you had this conversation with your wife? Oh yeah, no. Does she want to go where you go? Oh yeah, we're together. You guys go in separate ways? No, no, no.

We are totally on the same page. I know you met your wife in school, but how early into that process were you... Was it like day one of school? No, no, no, no. I met her at college, right? We both studied journalism. And I always thought she was like the most beautiful girl. But I had a girlfriend, she had a boyfriend, you know. We were friends.

You know, we were hanging out with our friends. They are our best friends still today. Uh-huh. Journalists. But then, man, there's something called carnival. I know about carnival. Yeah. The carnival is the most incredible party in the world, especially in my hometown, in Salvador. Because you see people that are in your daily lives, like the guy, like, that works in the bank, that you... You know these people? This guy, the restaurant guy. Yeah, yeah.

And you have this relation. When you see them in carnival, they are somebody else. You know, you're just, hey, hey. And it's sexy. And it's very sexy. And everybody's like really into having fun. It's interesting because it's supposed to be a Christian tradition.

party, but it's very... But when I saw her in Carnival and we looked at each other... What's her name? Sandra. She was a photographer. She was working there and I was doing this play in Rio. I was living in Rio. And this Carnival was in Salvador. And I was like, hey, we spent the whole Carnival together. And I was like, I have to go back to Rio because I'm working on this play. Would you come with me? She's like, yeah.

She came with me. This is how all romance works in Europe. She came with me. She left her job. And we started living together. We didn't know each other. We started knowing each other, living together. That was 24 years ago. Yeah. That's incredible. I'll be married 12 years this July. Married 12 years, together 15. Congrats. Yeah. I love it. I love being married. I love being a dad. Me too. I'm a cancer, right? Being at home, the five of us.

traveling together. And this is the thing, this dynamic might end soon, you know? By 18 years old, he would, you know, start traveling with his friends and going as he should. Yeah. So, when I see those four-year-olds, two-years-olds, I go like...

I just want to... I know. Listen, if you want to hug a two-year-old or a four-year-old, just come over anytime. Man, it's... Yeah, I will. Truly. You know, when you're talking about how you like to prepare and just, you know, rehearsals and how that's such a...

sacred part of your process. I mean, it occurred to me as remembering, you know, you're a journalist first. Like, I can only imagine that that impulse to dive deep and to sort of excavate information as you would as a journalist have to do must come into play in your preparation for characters. The fact that I studied journalism was very important for me. I didn't graduate as an actor, right? I don't have a proper education as an actor.

My education as an actor was like doing, doing things, going to stage and doing plays. Because I was already working as an actor when I was studying journalism. I started when I was 15. And the journalism itself, like being, always being connected to what's going on, to real reading. That's why I think this approach, this political approach that I have with what I do comes a little bit from there, I think, you know.

Because I think, Jesse, that everything is political. Comedies are, you know, like, the things that you go like, "Oh, this is a silly com..." It is political for me.

Because if it moves someone individually, somehow, if the person is like, oh, I had a great night. I love theater. Just the fact that someone goes like, I love art. I love theater. This is political. That's the best kind. That's the best kind, too. I think moving people through art is the best way to do it because sometimes it happens. Your heart's being changed, but it doesn't feel like medicine. It doesn't feel like...

I'm learning a lesson here. I mean, when those changes happen, I think that's beautiful. Was the film that you directed censored in Brazil? - Oh yeah, I directed, oh man, yeah. - What was that again? - Marighella. That film was, you know that we were under a fascist government for four years, right? - Yes, I know a little bit about that history, yeah. - Guy called Bolsonaro. Brazil was under a very heavy dictatorship from '64 to '85. I was born during the dictatorship in '76.

And it was horrible. Have you seen this Brazilian film that won the International Film, the Oscars now? It's called "I'm Still Here." - Oh, I haven't seen it yet. - It's beautiful. It's about that too. But my film is about the leader of the armed resistance against the dictatorship. And this president, this former president that we had, he praised the dictatorship. He thought that the dictatorship was a good thing for the country. So the film, we shot the film in 2017.

And the film was released in competition in Berlin in 2019. And we could only release the film in Brazil in 2021, almost 2022. Because it openly censored the film. And we received death threats. It was hardcore shit. But it was a fight that I was very happy to fight. But I said a lot. I spoke a lot. I exposed myself a lot.

And I don't regret that for a second. It was a very tough fight because it was the entire government against one film. But a lot of people embraced us, you know, everybody, all the progressive people in Brazil. Because, you know, unfortunately, we live in a very polarized situation. You can see in Civil War, which is unfortunate. But it was really...

important for me to feel embraced by people that go like, "Oh, this film is important. We want to know about this guy back then." Right. Well, sometimes when those things are met with resistance, it just increases the interest in what it is, like why is this thing... You know, they're trying to do something, but it's actually doing the opposite. It's actually shining more light on it. For sure. The film was a huge success in Brazil, internationally. It was amazing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They sort of did me a favor, but it was tough.

There were some premieres that we had to have metal detectors on the door because these people are crazy because these guys like Trump and Bolsonaro, they empower their followers in their worst, in their worst instinct. So you have to be...

Justin, my husband and I produced, we've produced a few films with David Saint, who's this incredible documentary filmmaker. And the one that we came on board with was, it's a film called Welcome to Chechnya. It streams on HBO, but it's about the gay purge in Chechnya. And the people who went in to film this, they had to do it very guerrilla style with secret cameras in their glasses and iPhones being hidden. And it's crazy how...

terrifying it was just to even make the film. And also terrifying to watch, but just knowing that filmmakers actually had to do this. - I'll definitely watch it. - But I was so proud to be a part of that film. - Congrats, man. - The reason Justin and I came on is 'cause they had to implement a technical aspect to the movie. They basically had to deep fake the faces of all of the lead players.

so that their faces wouldn't be recognized because it was so dangerous for them to be exposed. They had to protect them. So they had to protect them, but at the same time, they didn't want to just blur out their faces because they wanted the emotion of these stories. And the voices? And the voices were changed a little bit as well. But so they had these actors that came in and basically did face replacement on these characters.

lead characters in the film. So, yeah. Which is wild because it's like you can see it's a little glitchy. Like, sometimes they'll turn a certain way and it looks like they're wearing a weird mask. But you can still see the emotion and they just borrowed other people's faces. But wait, but so, but the...

The actors, so the actors reproduce the interviews? No, the actors basically, I don't know the technology about how they do this, but it was basically, you know, deep fake is such a dangerous thing. It can be used in so many horrible ways. This was like probably one of the first times it's been used in like a wonderful way. But basically, their images were captured. They went into like a studio and, you know, did all the dots on their face or whatever you have to do to like...

capture these images and did full body scans of these actors and then they were able to directly replace the actors physicality on top of the people on top of the subjects of the film and so there was no reenactment the actors never spoke any lines it was the people it was our subjects speaking the lines but they were hidden in a basically a body cast of a random actor

That's so cool. Isn't that fascinating? That's fascinating. Anyway, so that costs money and so Justin and I were like, we want two. But that's expensive, right? It's very expensive. That's when they were raising more money and Justin and I hopped on board saying, we have to make sure this film gets made and it gets made in this way. It's not an easy watch, but like I said, it plays out like a thriller in a lot of ways. That's my thing, Jesse. I know. Yeah. No, I figured you would like it. That's my kind of thing. Yeah. Yeah.

I mean, are there things that you watch or you enjoy on TV that are just purely like candy? I'm just looking at your resume. You know what I love? What do you love? Adventure Time. What is that? It's a cartoon. Have you seen this? It's brilliant. Okay. Adventure Time is brilliant. It's this...

little boy and a dog, and the dog is sort of elastic. And they live in this fantasy world, and it's just their adventures. But it's so poetic and so philosophical. My kids love it too. - Adventure time, go Google it. - Please, check it out. - Okay, I thought you were gonna say something like The Bachelor. - No, boy, let me see.

So even your candy TV has like, it's poetic and it's beautiful. Oh, but it's like, oh, I love telenovelas. Yeah, okay. So popular. That's what you started doing. Yeah, I did two of them and I loved it and I learned a lot by doing that.

And I love, and it's just the best way to decompress is to see those evil characters saying evil things and really wanting to fuck up the lives of other people. - I mean, it's hard work. - It's hard work, are you kidding me? You're kidding me, if you're a main character in a telenovela, you get in the studio at 9:00 a.m. and you leave at 6:00 p.m.? And you know in Brazil, in Mexico they use those-- - Earwigs, yeah. - In Brazil, people really memorize their lines.

Which is insane. I'm talking about 30 scenes per day, something like that. Yeah. You know? It's crazy. But it's a very... You get, like, very...

- Yeah, I'm sure it keeps you so sharp. - Yeah, sharp. You're like, "Okay, let's do it." - I don't hear in the States, like so many of our most beloved actors did soap operas, like Julianne Moore, for example, started soap operas. Are there like Brazilian actors who are like super big now that have come out of that world? - Oh dude, no. In Brazil, the star system in Brazil is soap opera actors. - Oh yeah, okay. - Our Hollywood is soap opera. It's like soccer.

It's like part of the culture. And the greatest Brazilian actors work on soap operas. Of course, they're always like the indie cool actors that just do films and things. But I was to the episode with Giacopolo. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you've never seen The Godfather?

Is that terrible? Okay, let's talk about that just to... I know, yeah, let's talk about it. No, no, no, I mean, I'm not judging you at all. No, but it's one of those... But, like, what's the reason? What's, like, like... I think... Is it too violent? No, no, I'm almost 50 years old, and the fact that I haven't seen it yet, I'm ashamed. And I don't know why I won't just, like, shut myself away in a room and, like, watch all three parts. It feels overwhelming now. I feel like, oh, God, like...

And also, I built it up so much in my head. I'm like, what if it's not as good as I need it to be? And I know it's going to be as great as I need it to be. And the thing is, why it's been on my mind so much recently is several of my other friends who are about the same age as me

have all recently watched The Godfather for the first time and separately have said to me like, "You know what I just watched? The Godfather." And it is one of the most incredible things. I cannot believe it's taken me this long to watch it. And so now I have to watch it. You have to watch it? I know, I know, I know. And there's so many things I've seen multiple times that you'd be like, "Are you kidding me?" And yet I've never seen The Godfather. Okay. I know.

And there's others, there's other classic films that I haven't seen. But there's stuff that I've seen that people have never seen, like how could you have never seen that? Yeah, that's okay, I mean, but... But The Godfather's a big one. But I was curious, because it's like probably the greatest American movie of all time. Also, I think because there's three of them, I'm like, oh, that's a commitment. Yeah, stick with the first one. But the second, two ones, you don't need to watch the third one. Okay, okay. The third one's like...

But the first two ones are... Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, and you see De Niro and Pacino in there. My son, my oldest son, works at the Arrow Theater here in Montana. Oh, nice. And he was like, yesterday, he was like, Dad, all Pacino's here. It was like they were screening Dark Day Afternoon. And he freaked out. He was like, Dad. That's incredible. My God, he bought a popcorn. But my friend, sell it to him. I'm going to try to...

Oh my god, I did The Merchant of Venice with Al Pacino. Oh man. And Shakespeare in the Park. Oh, come on. He played Shylock and he, it was, I spent a whole summer with him. Oh, come on. And I, obviously we could not have been more intimidated when I first walked into that rehearsal room.

But let me tell you what, he is the coolest, nicest. He is just, he's a student still. - I'm sure he is, yeah. - He loved rehearsal. We did The Merchant of Venice in rep with Winner's Tale. He wasn't in Winner's Tale. So basically every two days he had a few days off from rehearsal and he did not want to be away from rehearsal. So they booked him a little tiny room

next to the main rehearsal room so that he could just run lines on days when he wasn't called in because we were rehearsing the play he wasn't in. He just had to be a part of the process. He enjoys the work. He enjoys the work. And I remember one day I was... It doesn't take it for granted. No, and he's so inspiring. In fact, I called him because I wanted to come as a guest on the show and he just released...

his autobiography. I was like, come on the show and we'll talk about it. Does he know you have never seen The Godfather? He does now. No, I was, of course, afraid to tell him. By the next time I see Al, I will have seen The Godfather, I promise you. But I do remember one day in rehearsal for The Merchant of Venice, we were having a scene with just me and him. I played the clown in Merchant of Venice, which is basically like an anti-Semitic clown.

you know, hilarious back then, not so funny today. That's a racist play. Very racist play.

And we were having, I'm trying to remember the guy's name, Gobbo. Lancelot Gobbo is his name, my character. And we were having trouble with the scene, and so we were brought into another rehearsal room to kind of figure some stuff out. And Al was like, let's just improvise. Let's just improvise a scene. And so I started improvising Shakespeare with Al Pacino. Oh, come on. And he was like, I'm just coming home from the office, like that sort of stuff. No, no, no. And I was like, this is wild.

Oh, come on, Joseph. It was a dream. You were improvising Shakespeare with Al Pacino? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

That's amazing, bro. He is a really cool guy. That's amazing. Yeah, I mean, that will go down as one of the greatest experiences of my entire life. And on theater, on stage. I know. That's beautiful. But yeah, I haven't seen The Godfather yet. All right, yeah. Okay, figure that out, Jesse. Listen, if I see you in London, if you come to London to see my play... I'll see you in London. I will make sure I've seen The Godfather. Dude, I'll see you in London. I'm going to reach out to you. Okay.

Please do. Because I'm Brazilian, it's no bullshit. I reach out to people. I love it when people reach out to me. I'm going to reach out to you, and I'm going to go like, I want to see your play mid-June. You'll buy dinner, because right now dinner's on me. Oh yeah, I'll buy dinner next time in London. This episode of Dinner's On Me was recorded at Milo & Olive in Santa Monica, California.

Next week on Dinners on Me, you know her from her iconic roles in prestige TV series like Sharp Objects and Six Feet Under. It's Golden Globe winning actor and Academy Award nominee Patricia Clarkson. We'll get into her new film, Lily, where she plays real life activist Lily Ledbetter, a longtime Goodyear tire plant worker who fought back against pay discrimination. We'll get into why this role is so meaningful to her and so much more.

And if you don't want to wait until next week to listen, you can download that episode right now by subscribing to Dinners On Me Plus. As a subscriber, not only do you get access to new episodes one week early, you'll also be able to listen completely ad-free. Just click Try Free at the top of the Dinners On Me show page on Apple Podcasts to start your free trial today.

I'm Jesse Tyler Ferguson. Join me next week.

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