Nature-Based Renewal: Exploring Aquaponics & The Future Of Sustainable Urban Farming
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Hello, this is Richard Jacobs with the Finally Genius podcast. My guest today is Rolf Morgenstern. He's the Productive Green Infrastructure for the Regeneration of Post-Industrial Sites. That's the organization he's part of. The website is P-R-O-G-I-R-E-G.com.

So we had to talk about one of the items in there. You have to do aquaponics with European catfish. Sounds very interesting. So welcome, Rolf. Thank you for having me. Just to clarify at the beginning, this project you mentioned, it was an EU-funded project that we were part of. I'm employed at the University of Applied Sciences in Soest.

in the agricultural department. But that was really for five years, the main part of what I was working on. - Yeah, well, it'd be okay if we'll, let's explore the project. What are some of the things, what was the goal of it? What'd you do? - It was a EU funded project and the goal was to find new purpose for urban brownfields. So for spaces within the urban fabric

that were somehow underused and we set out to use nature-based solutions to find new purpose for this and new productivity for these kind of places one of the core goals was not to just do something there but to get different stakeholders together to co-produce and to collectively find the best solution suitable for the places that we found so we had a lot of different solutions

Some of those were like green walls and green roofs. And some of those were permaculture concepts. And one of those was like urban agriculture and aquaponics and stuff like that. Okay. Well, let's talk about the aquaponics. I've seen that, you know, have fish, you know, in a tank. And I guess the waste from the fish will go into the water and then that water goes through plants and then gets cycled back to the fish. Yeah, exactly. That's the general principle that you're keeping fish in a tank.

a recirculating aquaculture system. And then the nutrients from what the fishes are excreting, they are accumulating. And if you're running aquaculture system only by itself, you have to replace some of the water on a regular basis. And this water is very nutrient rich and it's very well suited to produce plants. So combining plants and hydroculture and fish culture together into a circular system really makes sense and it works quite well. Order.

What are some of the challenges in doing it? We've been doing this at the university for quite some time, since 2015. And that's where we had some catfish. And now for this newer system, we are aiming for grass carp for different reasons. We have been choosing a different fish. The challenges in terms of operation and financial support

suitability or feasibility, it is a lot of effort to set up a system. The investment is quite large. And then you have these two different types of production, aquaculture, which has a lot of knowledge requirements and you have to be very specific and know what you're doing. And on the other hand, producing plants and producing plant-based products also needs a lot of knowledge. So there is a very steep learning curve on one hand and a

huge investment in the beginning on the other hand so those are the main barriers and then you have of course a lot of different other barriers as you go along well okay so the best fish that you guys have seen or at least the ones you're using were catfish why what's good about the catfish are they resistant to like high levels of ammonia or waste products or like what's good about them yeah they are sturdy we wanted to have African catfish which is really sturdy and it has a really high productivity and you can keep them in

and a very high stocking density. So the African catfish production is really productive. But there is a local law, which we did not know beforehand, which would not allow us to keep this fish in our region. So we switched to European catfish, which is still quite effective, and it worked nicely. But we chose a different fish for the actual project we are working on now, or this pojirite project.

Because sometimes the catfish, they would start to fight and cannibalize. Yeah, and then when you have a lot of guests or people visiting and sometimes you would see a catfish that died from the fights, that's not a nice view. Was that due to conditions or they just like to fight?

We had a catfish producer and worked with him and learned from him a lot. And he said, it's so weird. He says that they are very sensitive to changes in barometric pressure and that sometimes his fishes, he is delivering them to his customers alive and they are totally fine at his place. And then they receive the fishes and they just start to fight. So it's not really clear what makes them start to become aggressive. And that's not totally common, but it happens occasionally, you see.

Do people eat the fish at a certain time when they're old or what? Yeah, we harvest it at a certain age and size and then we smoke them and we eat them. Sure. And at the university, in our department, we are always interested in business models and how these kind of production systems really can make sense financially and whether they have a business model that is feasible. And that's what we look at. Okay. All right. Got it. So what...

How long is the cycle from the fish being worn and growing up and being in the tank to, you know, time to eat them and replace them? Yeah, that very much depends on the type of fish. And that is why the African catfish is so attractive because it's a warm water fish and the fishes are adapting their temperature to the temperature of the water. So they don't have an internal heating system. They will always be in the same temperature as the water.

And the higher the water temperature, the higher their metabolism is. So when you are keeping warm water fishes, they will grow much faster. And if you have cold water fishes and you keep them in a cold temperature, they will grow much slower. So the

The difference is between the European catfish and the African catfish, for example, that the African catfish, when you keep them around like 28 degrees Celsius, they will grow like crazy. And they are only taking half the time that the European catfish would take. So, for example, the African catfish, you can get them to harvest size within six months. And the European catfish, we took 12, between 12 and 14 months.

So it takes some time. And that is also one of the risks of this production method when you are starting up your business and you have to stock the fishes. It takes around about a year before you have the first harvest. Oh, wow.

Of course, on the plant side, if you're... Well, the plant side, you're getting stuff, yeah. But you have to be aware that you have to fish this for like around about a year before you have the first harvest on the fish side. And oftentimes, you would not start with full capacity, but you would like slowly increase capacity to feel your way into the system. So,

in the beginning you don't have the full capacity and of course not the full revenue potential of your system. Well, are the fish breeding in the tank or when they start breeding and get pregnant you take them out? Like what happens? Usually you are only fattening the fishes. The breeding and hatchery business is totally different and it requires a lot more skill. So usually the producers they don't they don't

produce the fishes or that they don't multiply the fishes, that's what the hatcheries are doing. So you're buying fingerlings and then you grow them until they have the harvest size and then you slaughter and sell. So the breeding business is completely different. Usually, maybe there are some large scale producers that have a small hatchery for themselves, but usually that's two types of business. Okay. Do they put male and female fish or just males or just females or what's the difference?

Yeah, that depends also on the type of fish, the European catfish and also the African catfish. Usually in the conditions where you keep them, they don't multiply by themselves. So they need some sort of environmental conditions to get romantic feelings. The same goes for the grass carp that we are going for. They usually don't multiply unless you really know what you're doing.

But even if you're, you know, I'm not saying breeding them. I'm saying if I buy fingerlings, you know, and I want to set up aquaponics, do I do male-female mix? Is there a certain mix that I should do or no? Well, usually you don't want to have them multiply by themselves. So for the catfish, you can just get the mix. You usually don't separate them. But for example, with tilapia, when you keep male and female together, they will start to multiply.

And because they are mouse breeding fishes, they will start breeding before they have harvest size. And when they are breeding the small fry in their mouths, they cannot eat. So they will not grow anymore. And then you have a mixed population of small fishes and medium-sized fishes and large-scale fishes.

And it's difficult to do the harvest cycle. So usually when you are growing tilapia on a professional basis, you get male fishes only so that they don't multiply by themselves. And these male fishes, they are produced by the hatcheries and they have some fishes that are called super male.

They have two male chromosome sets. So the offspring of these super males is always male. And that's how it's done. The tilapia business is done on the professional side. Usually you only keep male fishes. Well,

But why? What do they do with the female fishes? They keep them to breed? I mean, you said it's hard for them to mate, but then again, you said that they may mate anyway in the tank. Well, if you only have male fishes, then that's the point. If you only have male fishes, then they cannot breed and then you will get the normal grow-out cycle. And if you have female fishes in there, then they will start to breed and then you have this mix of different species.

ages and sizes that is difficult to keep track of so that's why you said the sometimes the males fight maybe not on the tulip that is catfish specific

I think with tilapia, it's much easier, but they don't have this cannibalism issue. Well, maybe for the ones that have cannibalism, there's trade-offs. Maybe you do get a couple of females in there so they don't fight. Maybe they do. I don't know. There has been research on tilapia, on the stocking density. And if the stocking density is too high, they will become stressed, which is quite obvious. If you keep any type of animal or humans in tight quarters, they will become stressed and aggressive.

But the tilapia, they also got stressed when they have too much space because then they will become territorial. So a couple of fishes, they will be in the corner and they define this corner as their corner. And then in the middle, you have a couple of fishes that are always like, yeah, I also want to have my own corner. So there's an optimum of stocking density for tilapia. And also these type of things, they really depend on the type of fish you get. And you have to really...

know what species of fish you're getting involved with. Set up your system in this way and your operation.

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So you have to essentially stock it and everything has to be ready to go at once, right? Yeah.

Yeah, you have to really prepare your system and also the fish tanks and like the water throughput and all these kind of things, the filter system that has to be designed for the type of fish you want to have. Of course, some fishes you can exchange and you can have the same type of system. But usually before you build and design a system, you know what kind of fish you want to keep and then you design the system to this type of fish.

Okay, so you know the number of fish you need to put in based on the dimensions and all that? Like you have a good idea or what? Yeah, you define the stocking density and all these kind of things, like how many fishes you want to have and what kind of depth the fish tanks should have. For example, pike perch. And they prefer higher trash dumps. So for pike perch, you would get a tank that is

that is deeper so that they have the chance to go down to the bottom and then get to their preferred water pressure. Oh, so they need more room because they have to go deeper. I'm not sure whether it's really only about room, but if I understood correctly, they really prefer to have the depth of the water and that has to do with the pressure that is in a deeper tank and stuff like that.

that so when you want to have an aquaponics system there is like a set of fishes that are suitable and that you can choose from and then you design your system to this and of course you are using the water the process water on the plant side you are going for freshwater fishing in if you have saltwater fishes then you have saltwater and a lot of plants they cannot cope with the salinity of this saltwater so you are in the sector of freshwater fishes what other um

fish have people tried with interesting effects maybe? Very common is African catfish tilapia and European catfish we know works. Also trout works. And we have a small system running at an NGO that is using grass carp and tench, which is very good together with the grass carp. They are very friendly to each other. Of course, you can use any type of carp.

We know that people are using pike perch and probably a couple of other fishes that I'm not aware of. Interesting. Okay. Have you ever been involved in trying a new fish in there to see if it works? Or are there some systems where they have like fish and snails and different kinds of creatures that work together or just a single one? I think there are a couple of fishes that would be interesting. For example, maybe paku.

which is a South American fish that is a relative of the piranha, but it's vegetarian and it's a common fish for eating in these regions where it lives. And that would be quite interesting because you can feed it on a vegetarian meal and it's

That would, for example, be interesting. But if you are going into or if you want to be a producer, one of the criteria why which fish you choose is that you need to get the fingerlings on a reliable basis. And then you are going for those fishes that are already established in the different markets.

So if you are choosing an exotic fish, you will have to import it. And this paku, for example, that is really nice and promising. But I think if you buy one small fish, it already costs 15 euros. So because it's more like a decorative exotic fish and not meant for consumption. Okay. What kind of plants now do you pair with which kind of fish? Which ones work? Which ones don't? On the plant side, there is everything.

almost no limitation. You can use what is very popular are the leafy greens from lettuce or spinach and Swiss chard and the herbs, chives and whatever. Also the Asian leafy greens like mitsuna and pak choi and tatsoi and all that stuff that grows really well.

But you can also grow for fruiting plants like tomatoes and peppers and chilies and cucumbers or these kind of vegetables that work. The category of vegetables that don't work that good are the tubers like tomatoes and carrots and stuff like that.

because you are working in a hydroponic system. And we know that you can grow potatoes in aeroponics, but usually that's not economically feasible. So it would be possible to grow potatoes, but then you have to have an aeroponic system where the water is sprayed to the roots, and that doesn't make any sense economically. Do you have to have aeroponic or hydroponic? It's hydroponic. And of course, you could also do aeroponics, but

But you have to be aware because of the fishes, there is some turbidity in the water. So if you have irrigation lines or if you have spraying nozzles, they tend to clog. So we on the hydroponic side, we keep it simple. We have systems like media bed systems, airbed flow. We have deep water culture and NFT nutrient film technology.

And that's what we use. NFT is where it goes through like a pipe that has holes in it and the plants sit in the pipe and each one, the roots dangle into a pipe, right? Yeah. And the feeding pipe usually is rather small, but for an aquaponics system, I would use a slightly larger feeding pipe to take account of the clogging issue. So we have to make a small adaption on the hydroponics side. How do you not have the fish poop sucked up into the lines and go into the plant tank? You

You are trying to separate the fish poop just to keep the system from clogging. We have a mechanical filter. The filtration system on the aquaculture try to clean the system from the solids. And then you have the biofilter, which is converting the excretions from the fishes into the fertilizer. And that's a process that's called nitrification, where you...

where bacteria are converting the ammonia into nitrite in the first step and from nitrite to nitrate in the second step. And the first two are toxic for the fishes, so you have to remove them. But nitrate is not really toxic to the fishes.

at least not in those concentrations that you have it. And the nitrate is the main nutrient or nitrogen-based nutrient you have for the plants. So you try to remove the solids just to keep the hydroponic system as clean as possible. But of course, you will always have some turbidity. And then I think you briefly mentioned snails or things like that. You can use snails. It's possible to use snails or to use maybe...

some fishes in the hydroponic tank also to get rid of, or also crayfish and shrimp. That is something we have been thinking about, but then you also have to take care of those animals and make sure that they are, like, that they are okay. Okay. All right. I gotcha. So what, how do the plant's needs change?

Let's say they're in the vegetative state and they're going to go to the flowering state and eventually produce vegetables or fruit or whatever it is. What do you have to do with the fish as the plants go through each stage? What you can always do is what we are doing. We designed our system in a way that we can decouple. So we can have the aquaculture circulate by itself. That's one loop.

And then we have another loop for the hydroculture. And if we want to, we can just separate the systems from each other for a certain time. And if you need a different set of nutrients on the plant side, you can always provide them from additional fertilizer. So when the plants are going from the vegetative state into a fruiting stage, they will need more potassium and more phosphorus.

And these type of nutrients you can put as an additive into the hydroculture, which is possible. Also, what you can do because the nitrification process on the biofilter is in total producing acid. So the pH of the system is getting lower over time. And at certain points, you will have to add something to do pH management to get the pH up again. And depending on the nutrient needs on the plant side, you can use different types of things to make the

pH management. So I could usually, we would use calcium carbonate to add some calcium to the system. But if we know we have flowering plants and now they need potassium and phosphorus, we will use, for example, potassium, what's it called? Calilog. I don't know the English term. A potassium-based... Zolte? Arefshimin?

Yeah, that's the base of potash. And you can use to raise the pH again. And then you bring the potassium into... Like sodium hydroxide to raise the pH or some kind of acid to lower the pH, you say? Yeah, exactly. But there would be potassium hydroxide to raise... Amidst... Exactly, exactly. And then...

By using these different types of substances for pH management, you can provide the plants with a different type of composition for their nutrients. What you usually have to add is iron because iron is not a

available in the required amounts in the fish feed and the fish feed is actually the input for the whole system in terms of nutrients but that is something that you can just add to the plants you you add some shelated iron that is you can buy that on the market it's not very expensive and it's totally okay for the fishes so that's not a problem but you just have to know that you have to add iron to your plants otherwise you will see the deficiency symptoms there okay gotcha interesting the

So what, I don't know, what plants tend to do best in an aquaponic system? We have very good experience with watercress, which is not really surprising, but they, because they live in a water-based system. So watercress is really doing well.

And also things like mint. You just put one small root stem of mint into the system and it will just grow and it will be very prolific. But usually most of the different plants, they are doing fine. Even those plants that you would usually see in drier systems,

For example, rosemary. We had a rosemary plant in our ebb and flow system and it worked just fine. So on the plant side, there are not a lot of problems regarding nutrients and water supply. That's usually quite easy. You can also have perennials if you have a media-based system. For example, the rosemary, you can just have it in a system and keep it there. Also, we have some chives and over the winter they will die down.

and dry out and then in springtime the chives are coming back. So we just keep them in the system. We don't have to do anything. They will be just there. And you can even plant some trees. We saw systems, like not personally, but we know that there are systems where people have papa trees or mango trees in their aquaponics system that works. You have to have the temperature right.

in the environment of course. Okay. So the aquaponic systems, so can all this be outside in the sun or where they kill the fish? Does it need to be like not air conditioned but maybe just in a shaded like warehouse or where's the best place to put systems like these in case they leak? You know, all that stuff.

That depends a little bit on the climate zone that you are in. Here in Germany, we have frost in the winter. So if you have an outside system, you can build outside systems. That's totally not a problem. But you have to be aware that in wintertime, they will not produce and you have to make sure that all the pipes are protected from the frost so that they don't break.

And that's the main thing there. And if you want to produce year round, you will have to have a heated structure, like a heated greenhouse with artificial light to keep the system going, which is what we think quite energy and also cost intensive. And that is something we are not really a fan of. So we think that this could be a seasonal system, but you can build it outside. And if you are in a frost free zone, then there's little you have to take care of. You can use a pond and the pond water onto your hydroponic system.

and let it get back and then you have your anthroponic system. So...

There are very many different ways on how you can design your aquaponics system. But usually people think that the fish part and plant part that they have a distribution of roughly one to one, which is not really the case. Usually it's more in the relation of one to ten. So with one cubic meter of fish tank, you would have 10 square meters of hydroponic system that you can feed with nutrients. So the plant side is much bigger than the fish side. Okay. So

So again, you'll get once a year, you'll get a harvest of X number of fishes. Do all the aquaponics places harvest at the same time because fingerlings are available at the same time or is it staggered throughout the year? Yeah, if you want to spread out your production over the year, you would do a staggered production.

But then you have to produce into the wintertime. And then, as I said, you have to heat it. But we are doing one crop cycle or one fish cycle operation. So we will stock in springtime and then harvest late in November sometime there. And there is actually a problem here.

regarding the nutrient availability because the fishes, they are growing exponentially. So they start off really slow. And of course, because you're only feeding a little bit, you will only have a little bit of nutrients for the plants in the system. And then towards the end, they will grow really fast and you're getting a lot of nutrients. But if you look at the nutrient demand on the plant side, the maximum will be in early summer when there's a lot of light and the plants are growing faster.

and the temperatures are right, so they will need a lot of nutrients before the fishes are able to supply this amount of nutrients. So if you are in a climate zone where you have a pronounced seasonality of winter and summertime, you will have this kind of matching problem on how to operate your system so that the plants are happy and the fishes are happy at the same time. But if you are more on the equator...

Where the seasons are not so pronounced, this becomes less of a problem. You can just have staggered production and then produce year-round. So it's very well suited for African countries, Asian countries, all the countries that are centered around the equator. You know, if I go and I'm going to eat two tilapia, one has been doing aquaponics for a year and one, you know, was farmed or wild-caught, what would I notice in the difference in eating them? Do they taste different? Are they the same? There is...

informal information that I think is not scientifically proven that the fishes will benefit from the substances that the plant roots exude. So it's said that the fishes become karma because there are plants in the system and you have a biome, a shared biome, you have a shared system

And there are some aquaponic enthusiasts that say that the fishes are happier because the plants are in the system. But we have not seen any scientific evidence of that. And I think it's really difficult to put this to a scientific rigorous test. So I'm not sure about this. Usually the mass production of tilapia in the Asian countries, they just have less.

huge fish ponds and with the feed they're feeding antibiotics and stuff like that so they're going for maximum production but I think it's really hard to differentiate that from the quality of the product that you get. I don't know. I really don't know whether you can you have a difference in product quality on that term. But we do have contact to a UK producer they are producing trout and

and they are producing trout in an aquaponic system, and they are going for high quality trout. And the operator said, Antonio said, that they have customers that really cherish the quality of his fish. And that's why they are paying quite a high product price to him. And that's why he is able to operate the aquaponic system. Product quality is a huge success factor. But I would like

not to attribute this only to the aquaponic method. You can produce high quality fish if you know how to do it. And then if you have this, you put sustainability on top because you're using the nutrients from the fishes on the plant side. That's just an added bonus for your production system that it's more sustainable than if you would only operate the aquaculture by itself. Okay. Interesting. Yeah.

How long do these systems last? Or do they need major overhauls over time? Or what do they need? Today, we dismantled our aquaculture system at the university. We've been operating that from 2015 to 2019, I think.

And then we went into this other project and then we said, okay, let's stop here at the university. And now it had been dormant for quite some time. And now the greenhouse is being dismantled. So we have to dismantle it. It will be reused at a farmer. And usually because of the high investment, you want to run your agriculture system or the whole system for quite a long time. So I think you can run it for like 20, 30 years.

I know that there is this European catfish farmer. He has been running his system from 1998 till today. 24-7. He started the system once in 1998. And since then, he is running the system without ever taking it down. Almost 30 years. Yeah, but he's going into retirement now. If you want to buy his system. Are you going to buy his system or what? I don't know. I think he's going on vacation.

No, but I think his system is for sale, actually. So these kind of investments, they really require to run and operate this for a long period of time. And I think on the hydroponic side, it's easier to dismantle and maybe relocate somewhere else. But if you're building fish tanks, maybe out of concrete, it's really hard to move. You just have to have your system there and then you have to operate it for quite some time to get to the break-even point also. Well, how long does it take to come to a break-even on these systems?

It's hard to say. And there is this saying in the aquaculture sector that says, how can you make a small fortune with aquaculture? The answer is build a really huge system. So the profit margin is really small and the investment is high. And it's not uncommon that the first investor or the first operator is going broke.

And then someone else is buying at a discount and maybe even the second operator is going broke because of this huge investment and it takes some time to recover financially and to get to the break-even point. So it's not a very profitable business. The margins are tight. Same thing is also on the hydroponic side. If you're a commercial grower of produce, this sector also has very small margins.

And then you have to imagine you are connecting these two systems into a cycle. And then maybe sometimes you have to make small compromises on the operation. So the overall performance might be a little bit lower, maybe 5% or 10%. But if your financial margin is only 10% and your performance reduces by 10%, then suddenly you are cutting into the bone. So that's why commercial aquaponics is not very common so far because...

On each sector, the plant side and on the fish side, the profit margins are so tight because the markets are so tight that there is not a lot of leeway to make mistakes. So, I mean, who and where are the best places to have hydroponic systems? Like, is it should be an adjunct to a farm or, I mean, I don't know, what's, you know, if you wanted to do it for your house, I mean, is that crazy? What do you think? Yeah.

You can run a hobby private domestic aquaponics system for yourself. That's just a lot of fun. And if you've got your system set up and well-tuned, then you can even go on vacation and just keep it running. It will be fine. But if you want to do it commercially, we see two different types of business scenarios. The first scenario is that you really upscale. We see a calculated...

quite pronounced upscaling effects. So when you're building a larger system, you have a lot of potential for optimization and optimization. You get better prices for fish feed and all these kind of things. And these larger type systems you cannot build inside the cities. So we would say go just outside the cities with proximity to your customers. So maybe farmers that are living on the border of the city.

In Germany, they have a privilege to build greenhouses outside of the cities without having to have a building permit application. So there's privilege for the farmers. And that is one scenario. So you build a large system or larger scale system to really produce on a larger scale. And we think there is the potential to make this economically viable.

The second idea is to make a smaller scale system and then really do direct marketing and find your customers and find customers that are willing to pay for the better quality, for the sustainability, and that they see how you are producing your plants and your fishes and they cherish and value your work. And that's why they pay higher price. And then you cut out the middleman with direct marketing. You just sell to your customers directly. So that's the second sector where we think

that a viable business is possible. Great. Well, very good. Well, Ralph, what's the best place for people to learn more about aquaponic systems? You know, let's say they're new at it. You know, do you have any resources for them? Should they just go to YouTube? Like, what's your recommendation? Yeah, on YouTube, you have to be careful. There's a lot of good information on YouTube, but there's a lot of information that is really questionable. There is on edX. There is on

a course that is done by other researchers that we are also working with. And I think that course, it's a MOOC course, video course is really good and really recommended.

And then there's the U.S. Acroponic Association. They are running a forum, and I think you can go to that forum and then find some contact. So if you have questions, you will have access to the community of acroponic people. I should send him. I can send you the links. Yes, please. That would be great. We'll include him in the show notes. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast, Rolf. I appreciate it. And I know it's late for you, but thank you. Thank you very much.

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