The Science Of Trust: Mastering Client Conversations With Mary Schmid
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Richard Jacobs has made it his life's mission to find them for you. He hunts down and interviews geniuses in every field. Sleep science, cancer, stem cells, ketogenic diets, and more. Here come the geniuses. This is the Finding Genius Podcast with Richard Jacobs.

Hello, this is Richard Jacobs with the Finding Genius podcast. My guest today is Mary Schmid. She's the founder and CEO and creator of the Conversational Edge system. She's written about it. So it's a neuroscience-backed technique to build lasting client relationships. So I think it promises to be very interesting. Welcome. Thanks for coming. How are you doing, Mary? Oh, it's my pleasure to be here and with your listeners, and I'm doing well today. Thank you for asking. Well, good. Tell me about this conversational system. What is it and how did it arise? So...

How it arose is that I thought I was really good at conversations, and I wasn't. I thought that as spending many years as an executive in a healthcare organization, I thought two things. There must be something wrong with them. There must be something wrong with me. But you know what, Richard? It wasn't either. There was something wrong with the conversations. I would talk and talk and talk, and people would sort of not get what I was saying. And so...

I wondered why that happened. And in my wonderment, I came across the neuroscience of conversation, which explains that what goes on in a conversation starts in our brain. It's this interaction of chemicals that allow us to either open up and connect with one another or we shut down in protection. And based on that, as well as social psychology and business, I put together and I

teach that what's called the conversational edge system. And it's a whole program that starts with us understand what role our brain plays so that we can then follow the principles and one by one lead better conversation. So we're in the moment of a conversation and it's not going well. We know what to do. Well, what's an example? Like, you know, we're starting off, sounds like on a good foot. Everything's okay. Like, you know, what do we do to have a good conversation? Well,

Well, you first have to understand what goes on in our brain. And it's this simple. The conversations that you lead will either open up people and the oxytocin gets flowing and they'll trust or they'll shut down in protection and cortisol takes over. And the interesting piece is people cannot develop trust in you in the conversations when cortisol is running the show. And cortisol is more frequently known as a

amygdala hijack, fight, flight, freeze, appease. And when people are in that state, they can't connect, they can't listen, and they can't respond. So our job is to get more of the good chemicals flowing in a conversation. You see that people tend to go into this, I'm not going to listen, I can't listen state where

more readily nowadays? I think so. And I think that we look at the world at large and I think there's a lot of uncertainty and unrest and fear. And so there's some things that we can do to mitigate that in the conversations that we lead. What's an example of that? So the first thing, Rich, that we need to do is we need to prepare ourselves. We need to take 60 seconds before our conversations and

and take a deep breath and reset our nervous system. Breathing is the easiest, quickest, fastest way to reset our nervous system. Then we need to get...

Second, get really clear on why are we even having this conversation? What's the purpose of it? Then we need to switch our thinking from us to the person that we're going to be talking with and ask ourselves questions like what may be going on in their world? What's their situation? And most importantly, how do I want them to feel as a result of having a conversation? You've just turned on the good chemicals in your brain. So now you're ready to share those with the people that you're going to be in a conversation with. Okay.

Okay, so again, what do I do? So you either parent yourself. The second thing that you need to do is understand that from a neurochemical point of view, that when I first lay eyes on you or I walk into the room in a conversation, I have some angst about what are we going to talk about and where's this conversation going? So the first piece of it is that we need to present with a calm presence.

good eye contact, a smile, arms out in front of us, shoulders relaxed. My brain automatically picks that up and simply says, oh, this person seems to be friendly. They seem to be interested. And then the first words that come out of our mouth is not, how is the weather? Which is the normal chit-chat rapport building. I say, no, the first words that come out of your mouth is to look at the other person and say, you know, I'm glad we have time to spend together. I'm happy to see you. What that does is it

Again, it triggers a good chemical. Like you're interested and you're really wanting to be in this conversation with me. You're giving me the time. And many times people will just smile and like take them by surprise, but it takes them by a good surprise. And then once we get going, we invite them into the conversation instead of just business before business, business, business. Invite them in and simply say, you know, the purpose of our conversation is to understand.

And before we get going, I'm wondering what you were thinking about that's important for you to discuss. Let them go first. Tell you what it is that they have on their mind. And then you can simply say, well, thank you for sharing. Always acknowledge and appreciate people. You can say, well, thank you for sharing. Here's some ideas that I had that we could talk about today. Share that with them. It shows that you're prepared.

prepared, that you're ready for them. And then together you decide the course of the conversation. We call that co-creation. I take your ideas and my ideas and we put them together.

So you see that gives, that puts us on a playing field where we're partners. You're not above me and I'm not below you, but together we can create this conversation that is going to be beneficial and fruitful. So when I come into a conversation and I just start asking questions and maybe I'm not soft, I kind of like interrogate the person without meaning to. It makes sense that they would all of a sudden be filled with stress and, you know, clam up because they feel like they're being attacked, I guess, in some way, right?

Yeah, because they have no context and no framework of why you're asking what you're asking. And it's easy to jump into business to be quick and to be efficient, but it doesn't build trust. In fact, it's the opposite effect. We think that we're being helpful, like let's get to business and let's talk about this and let's get this solved. So we think that we're being easy and efficient, but it backfires on us. Why does it backfire if it's just business? You know, if it's not a personal thing and I'm not being anarchist,

angry over bearing, but I just like, all right, let's just be efficient and get started. Why is that no good? Because people don't, they're still sort of in that anxious state, like what's really going to happen here and how is this going to go? And they have no idea. And that unknowingly

uncertainty makes him feel a little angst. So we just set it up in a way that we're very clear about where we're going to go and what we're going to do. That calms people's nervous system so they know what to expect. Our brain is a very predictive, expectant brain. And when we know we're

we can relax. And we've got to relax because that's what allows the oxytocin to start flowing, which allows us then to build trust. So that's why it's important to invite them into the conversation. And then we can get going with the business. Well, I'm glad to see you today. Glad to have this conversation. I want to talk about XYZ. Be that cool with you. Yeah, that sounds good. All right, well, let's get started. And then it's

So then there's no fear or worry and the person's prepared. And what I like about that is you've just beautifully demonstrated how simple it can be. You see, I teach principles, but I don't teach you a script. It's that simple. It is that simple. Mm-hmm.

And three sentences really calms people down. They know what to expect and they're ready to engage with you. Okay. Yeah, because our job is to say more and do more of what gets our good chemicals going. And something as simple as what you just said does the trick. It's not a trick. It triggers them in a really good way. Now they're ready to...

Yeah, it makes sense. Like my podcast guests, I'll tell them how long we're going to talk and, you know, it's recorded and all the other stuff. I try to, over time, answer all the questions they'd have beforehand. So now they, sometimes they have a question or two, but usually they're like, okay, I'm ready. And off we go, you know? Exactly. That's a perfect demonstration of the principle. Well, I've also noticed though, too, in the

In the first couple minutes of a conversation, even if you had that preamble, there still could be like a sticking point. So do you watch for something like that? Do you see it happen? Or, you know, if you set the right framework in the beginning, it's smooth. Or there are other milestone points where you have to like re-

smooth it out. There could be sticking points. I think one of the biggest sticking points that I see is that we don't consistently follow this way of speaking to people and we go off track and we think that by talking about the hobbies and the weather and all these things that really aren't pertinent to the conversation at hand, we're building rapport and you don't need to do that.

We get way off track and we spend all our time, you know, on the weather and the sports and the ball scores and whatever it might be. And that takes away from the real reason that they're there. And the real reason I'm in here in a conversation with you is that I've got something on my mind I want to talk with you about. And it's not that. Well, how do I reset that expectation? Let's say we got on and you took control right away and you're asking me about all this stuff. And I want to tell you, like, you know, Mary, I appreciate it, but we got to get started. Like, how do I?

redirect you in a nice way. You go with it and you simply say, let's get started then. I have an example of a client that tried this technique. It uses this all the time. And the clients that came to visit him simply looked at him and said, you know, enough of this. I don't need a social relationship. I'm not here to socialize. Let's get down to business right now. And his response was, great. Where do you want to start? It's that simple. Okay. And that's not going to offend the person that's wanting to talk about X, Y, or Z. Yeah. Okay. I just wondered if you had any trouble, you know, like that. No.

What about if you're like in the middle of conversation and for some reason it's kind of going off the rails? How do you bring it back in a nice way that doesn't upset the person or make them just cut them up? That's a beautiful question because that will happen and people go on and on with their stories and things that aren't really relevant to what it is that you need to talk about. So

What I suggest that we do is we politely but directly interrupt and simply say, Rich, I understand this story or this, what you're telling me is important, but I'm not, I'm lost and I don't understand how that relates to, help me to understand how we can talk about how this relates to what

what it is that we're here for. So you interrupt and bring them back. I call it refocus. The skill is refocus. We're talking about a lot of things that are important to you, but let's get back to what the main reason that we're here today for. You take control back and refocus them because people don't even realize that

Sometimes they just get talking and talking. And, you know, because the dopamine kicks in and we like to hear ourselves talk, they just go on and on. And we take control to guide the conversation in a way that's productive to the meaning of why we're meeting. Okay. So just like a general redirection back to the subject at the end. Yeah. That's the way to do it. Correct. Redirect, refocus. We were talking about let's go back to that because I think that's what you said to me was important that we talk about today. Hmm.

Okay. So what are some personality types that are difficult to do this with? It's like I run into some people that just talk you to death if you don't stop them, like you end up being a skeleton. You know, how do you shut up people like that? They just go, they won't stop. Time out, time out, time out. Let's pause. Take a breath. And you're talking, you know, so why do you think that they're talking a mile a minute? I don't know. Maybe out of discomfort. Maybe it is like the talk. I don't know.

Yeah, there's something underneath all of that. They're uncomfortable. They're nervous. They're anxious. They just like to talk. You know, the real reason that people talk is because of our brains. Because the more we talk, the more we get a hit of dopamine. And the more that the dopamine takes over, the more we talk. Because we love to hear ourselves talk. So it's incumbent upon us that we take a time out and say, whoa, Rich, slow down. Take.

Take a breath. Okay. Now let's get to what it is that we need to talk about. You're talking a mile a minute. I can't quite keep up and I want to hear what you have to say. So slow down, slow down. And you actually do that. Actually, you do that with them. It's just, Rich, I'm calling a timeout. Let's slow down here a minute and take a breath. You're talking a mile a minute and I can't keep up with that. And

And I want to hear what you have to say because it's important. So let's just take a breath. Now, what is it? Can you summarize? Can you bottom line it? Can you... I use the word bottom line. Can you bottom line for me what's important or what's the impact of what you're telling me? Oh, okay. Do people take offense to that or how do they react? They react with like...

oh, I didn't even realize that I was doing that. And yeah, I can bottom line it. You see, you deliver it in a kind way, but a very direct way. You don't say like, just...

stop talking and get to the point. That wouldn't be very effective, but you frame it that you want to hear what they have to say, but when they're talking a mile a minute and they're all over the map, it's really difficult for you to understand and you want to understand. So let's both pause, take a breath. Now, what's the most important thing of what you were trying to convey to me? What's the most important point? Well, what do you mean? Bottom line it,

Tell me in two sentences what I need to know about this. What about if someone's shut down in a conversation? They're not talking much. They're just like, what could you do to bring them back to the table? That's another really good question. So we go back and say, why are people shut down? What made them shut down? Oh, it could be many things, but just something that happened in the conversation where it's gotten uncomfortable and you want to try to respond.

Bring them back. You know, what could you do? So you call, you name it and you invite them back into the conversation.

So it sounds something like this, Rich. I noticed with that last question, I noticed that you have gone really quiet. What are you thinking? Would you be willing to share that with? You see, we have to realize that sometimes people go quiet and we think that they're shut down, but they're what we call internal processors. They're in their mind thinking about what they're thinking about what you said and thinking about how they're going to respond. So we give them a little space. We need to get comfortable with silence, first of all, and we give them a little space.

30 seconds, 60 seconds. Okay. Let them think and let them process and then invite them back in. Invite them back in. Would you be willing to share with me what you're thinking? You've been kind of quiet.

Okay. And see what you get with that. Well, I don't know what I'm, some of them will say back to you, well, I don't know. I don't know. It was just kind of quiet. Yeah, I understand. You're empathetic, right? I understand. How can we get this going again? So they're retreating either because they're really afraid of something, they're uncomfortable, or they're busy thinking about what they're thinking about. And we gently invite them back in. Okay. Okay.

What about if someone's just, I don't know, they're just taking offense to what you're saying. They're just, they're pissed off. Now they're becoming hostile. You know, can you deescalate them then? And what would you do? What,

What I recommend that we do is we, again, put a pause on it and simply say, it seems to me that what I'm saying to you is really upsetting you. It seems to me that you're feeling really angry. Did I get that right? And they'll say, yes, you did. You said something that was very offensive. Circle back and say, what did I say that offended you? Because that was not my intention. Well, you said thus and so and thus and so. You took great offense at that? Yeah, I did.

Okay, okay. Let me try again to re-say it in a different way because I didn't intend for you to take it badly. What I intended was to get to the bottom of what some of the facts are so that I can help you. So help me to understand...

so I can help you. Again, you're inviting them back in. You're recognizing that something happened. Sometimes we need to apologize and simply say, you know, I'm sorry that that offended you. That was not my intention. What I was really trying to accomplish was getting to some facts or getting to know the situation more. Can you help me to understand? Turn it back on them and give them some space to respond. You may run into a situation where people just get

totally ignited and furious. And at that point in time, it's time to call the conversation. You simply say, I think I touched a nerve here and you're really upset. Let's take five minutes to regroup. Do you need a glass of water? How can I help you to regroup? And sometimes you might even need to cut the conversation short. If they're really volatile and really upset and simply say, you know, I don't know that we can accomplish much when you're this angry or this upset. Right.

Depends on the intensity of the feeling. Right. So I guess you just prod a little bit, but then if it's not working, then you let it go. Or you just say, all right, let's try again another time.

If you didn't and you kept prodding and prodding, what do you think would happen? It was like you said earlier, they would just become cortisol filled and not be listening. And just they'd probably start coming across to you as like completely unreasonable. And you're thinking like, geez, what's wrong with this person? But I guess they're in a state where they just can't listen. Well, and if you keep prodding and prodding when they're in a state where they're highly agitated or highly angry or highly, you're going to feed the fire. And that's not productive. Yeah, it makes sense. Yeah.

Okay. So who do you teach this to when you teach it? How do you teach it? How do I teach it? So I teach it to professionals who want to be better at their conversation, who understand that their success and their work makes a difference because when you lead conversations that...

build trust and people have trust and confidence in them, the relationship grows and stands the test of time. So I've worked in a couple different industries. I primarily work in financial services, helping financial advisors and firm owners learn how to lead conversations, not just with their clients, but with their staff. I've also worked in the verticals of IT and healthcare. Where does this become a...

What about if the power dynamic is different, like boss versus worker versus co-worker? It's huge. It's huge. So the power dynamics in any organization or any business exists. I'm the boss. You're the employee. And I get that. And what I encourage people to do is when they learn how to talk with people, they shift the power balance. I'm the boss. I know it all. Do what I say. Say what I do, which people...

don't build, that doesn't build trust to more of a power with. So let's talk about how we can improve this process. Let's talk about what's going on. I want your ideas. I'll share with you my ideas. And then together, let's problem solve what our options are. How can we prevent this from happening again? Or what are we going to do now that it happened? What will you do? What will I do? Where will you need my support?

And on we go. It's much different than simply saying to someone, this is what went wrong. This is your fault. You better fix it.

or else. But coming down to saying, how can I support and work with you as the boss, as the leader, has a whole different meaning that allows people to begin trusting you. So when they do have a problem, they'll come to you and they'll simply say, you know, I got really stuck. Do you have a few minutes that we can talk through this? It doesn't mean that you take responsibility for them, but you take responsibility for leading the conversation. There's a subtle difference

Because at the end of the conversation, we always have an action plan. So what will you do differently? So that what will you do differently? Okay, you'll do X, Y, and Z. And then we get our planning done. And then we say, I will be here to support you. And if things don't, if this doesn't work out, we will meet again to talk about how else we can approach it.

We're always looking at problem solving, problem solving rather than blame, criticism and putting people down. Do you ever have to fall on your sword and be like, you know, it's my fault. Let's just start again. Yeah.

And just like you said, just put it on yourself. Does that help? I think that's totally possible. So as a leader, you may simply say, you know, I really, I really goofed up here and I'm sorry that I offended you or I'm sorry that I didn't do my part or that my directions weren't clear. So you own what it is you own. And then it,

invite the next step is like, and how can we figure this out so that this doesn't happen again? So let's figure out and problem solve together versus me saying, well, I'm going to put you on a performance plan and this is what you need to do. And if you don't do this and if you don't do that, then you're out of here. Right.

Right. Very different. Okay. So what kind of, I don't know, any interesting stories about where you taught this and communication improved? Oh, I've got lots of stories. And one in particular I think about is a financial advisor that was meeting with their client. The client called up and said, I'm glad that we're meeting this afternoon. You did it all wrong. We got to set this thing straight. Now, the financial advisor thought, what did I do? I sent her off some documents to review. I

And that's all wrong. And so she realized that she was all riled up. So she calmed herself down using the breathing and resetting. And when the client came in, she goes, let's talk about what that voicemail was and talk about what went wrong here. A client said, well, there's everything wrong. You told me that you were going to walk me through all these things that I need to do. And here you are. You send this document to me. You send this paperwork to me. And you expect me to sign off. Michelle was the advisor. She goes, whoa, awesome.

I get it. Now, you think that because I sent these documents for you to review that I expected you to sign off and I wasn't living to my promise that we walk through and talk through the decisions you need to make. And she says, well, that's exactly what you did. Michelle said, oh, okay. I'm sorry. That was not my intent. And perhaps I wasn't clear about what it is that I wanted you to do with this document. What I wanted you to do is just to review them so that when we meet, we can talk through what it is you client wants. Oh,

I misunderstood. Michelle said, I misunderstood. So what can I do, she said to her client, to make sure this doesn't happen again? Well, just be clear. When you send your email or you send the communication and say, please review, we'll talk about it. Michelle said, yep, I can do that. And then she said to her client, and what will you do if this happens again? Client sat back and thought, I'll

I'll do exactly what I did in that. I will point out to you that I don't understand and bring to your attention what I think is a problem. She goes, that's exactly it. Because when you identify your problems and we look at them together, we can find a solution. Problem solved. And what was a potential, a breaking relationship turned into a trusting relationship that both people could understand. And when problems did arise, then they could talk about it. Well, that's good. I mean, there's a subset of people that can never admit they're wrong. I just...

Probably wouldn't work for them because they can never admit they're wrong. But in general, it seems like people have a hard time saying, oh, I was wrong. I'm sorry. That kind of thing. Is this enough to get both parties to do it? Or, you know, there's like the stronger willed party usually have to say like, oh, man, I screwed up. I'm sorry. And then say, you know, like you said, like, just use the dialogue you said, but they have to start it.

So when I work with strong-willed people, I simply say, so what is it that you want to do? If you want to power over people and strong-arm them and not overtake responsibility, because we're all human and we all make mistakes and sometimes we're messy. Things happen. If you want to do that, I will guarantee you that. You're not going to have...

employees that will stay with you. You won't have staff that want to work with you and you're not going to have clients that will stay with you because people don't want to be treated that disrespectfully. And the second question I ask is, what's in it for you to get into this position where you know it all? What's that about? And begin to think and if you're willing to look at how we can work with that

But you have to be willing to say, sometimes there is more than one right answer and it's not just my answer. In this world, there's many ways to approach a problem. There's many options for solutions and you need to understand that and be willing to go there. If you're not, then I will guarantee you that you're going to have people that don't

don't want to work with you, that won't refer you, that won't stay with you. People don't want to be treated with disrespect. They want to know that you know your stuff and you're an expert in what you do. I get that. But they also want to know that you care about them and you want to guide and help them make the best decisions. And when you spell them... What about in some extreme environments? Let's say a prison in your neighborhood.

And you're going to consult with the warden and the correctional officers. Like you would think, well, they can do whatever they want. You're not the prisoners. But then again, I'm sure things work a lot better when they get the respect and cooperation of them. Have you worked in those kind of scenarios? And what's the dynamics look like? Well, I have not. Be honest with you. I haven't really. I've never worked in those environments where there is a clear chain of command and a

clear authority, subservient relationship. You've got the wardens and the inmates and a clear separation and a clear distinction. And I'm not sure their model is such that they can meet in the middle. I don't know. It feels like all is possible with the model. That's why I was curious on how far you pushed it. But, you know, how far have you pushed it? Like, what is some of the most extreme examples or example of a

we use this. The most extreme example is currently I'm working with a CEO who just doesn't like to be wrong and we're working and we're working, but it's like he makes a decision and the next day he backpedals and then he blames the staff for not doing what he asked them to do. So we take that conversation that he's had and we do what we do an autopsy on it is what I want to say. We deconstructed it and it

and every step of the way and say, when you said this, this is the impact it had. Is that what you want to be conveying? Well, no, no, no. And then we go back and rework it again. And that's, I think, the most effective way when people are really, it's what I call they're addicted to being right. They have to be right. That's what they think the leader does. That's what the owner does. That's what the CEO does. And yes, you do have

position of power when you're the owner and the CEO, but you can't get work done when you're not working with other people. And so the cost to you is that you will have turnover. You will have people that aren't going to want to speak favorably. Your reputation will be one of being a know-it-all and that you're not easy to work with. If that's what you want, then you don't, then at

You don't have to change. But if you want something, see, this is the whole thing, Rich, is people's willingness to simply say, so where am I missing the mark in how I'm talking with people and a willingness to say, yeah, we'll look at that. Okay, let's look at that. So we look at the brain chemistry, what goes on in your brain that has you say this and how can you rework that? And sometimes, Rich, it's just a subtle, slight shift of how we say things that makes all the difference. Hmm.

Yeah, no, it sounds like it. Where can people get your book and take the course and incorporate this into their lives? Yeah, thank you for asking. So the book is on Amazon and I'm always on LinkedIn. So people can connect with me on LinkedIn. But we have a special link for your audience that they can click the link and then get my presentation.

my free report. It's called Conversations Are Your Competitive Advantage. And it's a brief report that's chock full of a little bit of theory and the neuroscience, but things that you can do to turn your conversations around. Okay.

Is there a book with it or just a, how is it laid out? A whole course or what? It's laid out as a seven page. Here's, here's some suggestions and here's some ideas. You see, everything I teach is, is based on principles. So here's the principle and here's how you can think about it in a different way. So it's sort of a guide to the things that we've talked about. Okay.

Yeah, and Miriam had sent that over to you. Oh, very good. There's a special link just for the listeners that are on the call that will listen to your show. Okay. Well, very good, Miriam. Well, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. That's really cool. You're welcome. You've created this system, you know.

Yeah. And thank you for having me. And yes, if anyone's interested, I'm always happy to have a conversation and to talk more about how the system can help you lead conversations that are not just good, but they're trust building because that's where the difference happens. Excellent. Well, thank you very much. You're welcome. If you like this podcast, please click the link in the description to subscribe and review us on iTunes. You've been listening to the Finding Genius Podcast with Richard Jacobs.

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