Dr. Joseph Farrell - The Hess Mess Enigma (Pt. 2 of 2: Double Trouble)
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Come, they told me, a lion keen to see. Our finest plots we bring, who lay before the king. So to topple them, we come.

That's changing everything.

The Wolf and Bear Kept Time Parapapam

I played drums for Adi. I played my best for him. And he frowned at me. Me and my drum. Me and my tree.

Welcome back to part two of this show that we have baptized, heavily inspired by Joseph's book, The Hesmes Enigma. You see what I did there? Yep. Not riddle, but enigma. Yeah, I did. I noticed that. Anyway, so...

We have laid the background case here now and let's just get straight to it. And I don't even want you to recite the official narrative for why he went because everybody knows it and we don't have that much time. Plus, it's kind of going to be transparent from when you now explain your hypothesis. Or maybe we should say it's the hypothesis of...

Picnic and Prince? Yep. Yeah, it is. Well, the basic hypothesis, the basic scenario that they're outlining, which I agree with, except in some particulars, I kind of extend it a bit beyond what they do. But the basic hypothesis is that Hess flew to Great Britain

after having under, and this is very important, after having undertaken a study of the British Constitution, which he did,

And with particular attention to the reserved powers of the crown, which most people in this country simply do not have it right. The British monarchy is a monarchy. The crown has real power. It's not simply a figurehead. All right. To this day, they don't even have a constitution. Right. Exactly. The crown has the power to dismiss any minister of government, including the prime minister, at any time.

and to prorogate the Parliament, that is to say, to call a Parliament. And supposedly the Crown is supposed to act under ministerial advice, but it has not always done so. It promoted Prime Minister Baldwin into the premiership, and so on and so forth. So there have been occasions in recent British modern history where the Crown has acted on its own and done things, all right? So Hess undertook this study of the British...

Constitution and particularly the reserve powers of the crown because in the process of his and General Househofer's quiet negotiations with the British, they discovered that, yes, there were significant elements within Great Britain, including the royal family.

that wanted a way out of the war, but they would not accept any condition of peace that included Hitler remaining in power. And this is natural because they were heavy royalists, nobilities, and they saw that under Hitler,

that wouldn't necessarily be respected. He could finish off. So they wanted their way of life, even though they would have been sympathetic to anti-Semitism, fascism, you name it. They had an anti-Soviet thing going. Right, right.

It's just impossible, no matter how right-wing you were. So all these people in Britain that after the war has been referred to as Nazi sympathizers, really more, one should say, the kind of has Nazi sympathizer. And we touched upon this in a former program where we launched some theories about coup in Germany that we noticed that those who...

We're behind the coups we know about and maybe even the coups we speculated about. They were kind of like the same ilk. Yes. In Hesse's case, we have to remember that the Duke of Windsor, the former Edward VIII that abdicated his throne, you recall. Well, they dined, the Duke of Windsor dined with the Hesse's personally in Munich.

Prior to the war. So in other words, Hess has connections directly to the royal family at a very, very high level. Didn't also Haushofer have connections to? Yes, absolutely. To the Duke of Hamilton, to the Duke of Kent, and so on and so forth. So Hess, when he flies to Scotland, is...

to make contact with the Duke of Hamilton. In fact, he requests when he's caught by that British farmer to be taken to see the Duke of Hamilton, that he's there to see the Duke of Hamilton. And why is he doing that? Well, because the Duke of Hamilton, as a senior member of the peerage, can request an audience with the royal family. And not only that, but Hess claimed that

that he was flying to Great Britain under a flag of truce that had been granted by the royal family. And in addition to this, it is very clear that Hess had had the entire party apparatus working on documents. So in other words, Picknett and Prince actually speculate, and I think they argue an absolutely convincing case here,

that Hess was not coming to negotiate a deal. He was coming to sign a treaty that had already been negotiated. And that's the reason he was requesting personal access to the royal family. Now,

On the Nazi, on the German side of things, in these negotiations, they had also come to the conclusion that we cannot negotiate with the Churchill clique. So in other words, on the German side, you have a demand to get rid of Churchill. On the British side, you have a demand to get rid of Hitler. All right? And at this juncture, I think what the actual scenario is is

is that Hess is part of a coup plot, a double coup plot, that is going to replace both governments at the required time. That the royal house will dismiss the Churchill government and put in someone more amenable to a peace with Germany, someone perhaps like Lord Halifax or somebody like that.

And on the German side, Goering and Hess are involved in a coup to topple Hitler once Hess comes back, and they are able to pull this off. Now, why do I say that? Because, and this is something that you can find in some of the history books, and it's one of the most peculiar facts about the Hess flight story.

that people don't really latch on to as to the significance of what's going on. Prior to the flight, Hess has Willi Messerschmitt outfit his plane with a special radio

Because remember, Hess is flying an unauthorized flight through the air defenses of Nazi Germany and Western Europe, which at the time are some of the most sophisticated in the world. He lands in Scotland with the RAF not even responding in any force to this incoming German plane.

So that should tell you the fix is in on both sides. Now, there's two facts about the Hess flight that people overlook. Number one, the maps of the air defense zones throughout Western Germany and Europe were given to Hess by Hitler's personal pilot, Hans Bauer.

Okay. And number two, General Adolf Gallant, who was the Luftwaffe general in charge of the air defenses in Western Europe at that time, as Hess's flight is underway, all of a sudden got a call from Reichsmarschall Goering himself saying, you need to scramble fighters.

And Gollum said, why? There's nothing coming in. And Goering said, it's not about something coming in. It's about something going out. The deputy Fuhrer has gone mad and he's flying to Great Britain. You need to shoot him down. Mm-hmm.

But when the call came, here's the key component here, Al. When the call came, Hess's flight was so far out over the North Sea that it would have been impossible for any German fighters to catch up with it.

Exactly. And hang on, if he knew about this, I mean, God knows, how would he know, right? Yes, exactly. But obviously he did know, and then he should also know the timing. This is obviously to get his name cleared, to get his own record. I tried to stop him. Yeah, exactly. The next day after Hess has landed in Great Britain and it's been announced by the BBC, Hitler is in a panic. He summons everybody to the Berghof.

And Goering arrives and said he didn't know anything about it. Now – That's kind of risky, isn't it? It's extraordinarily risky. And that's a clue right there that Goering and Hess are both in on something as far as I'm concerned. Now, Hess lands in Great Britain. And, you know, Al, the details here, we could go on and on about details.

But and I wish we had the time to do it because it's it's so bizarre what now begins to happen at one point. Let me just run down a few of them. At one point, he is interviewed by a Polish officer, a member of the Polish resistance forces in Great Britain and a personal representative of General Sikorski, who is the head of the Polish resistance.

And this Polish officer interviews Hess in German for two hours without any British presence.

And Picknett and Prince speculate that, and again, I think their argument here is absolutely ironclad, that he's really interviewing Hess to try and figure out how to get Hess back into the hands of the right people. Because the wrong people, the Churchill people, are the ones that have collected him, all right? So they're trying to figure out how to get Hess back into the right hands and get him to where he's supposed to be.

Now, Picknett and Prince speculate that as part of the deal for any peace, the British wanted to restore the Polish throne and offered one of the royals to lead it. So in other words, the Germans would no longer be formally occupying Poland, but essentially they'd have a puppet state there that had the sanction of the British royal family.

Now, on and on this goes. Hess is then driven ultimately down to London where he spends about eight weeks in the Tower of London. And during that time, he's drugged. He is measured for a Luftwaffe uniform by none other than the guy that plays M in the – pardon me, Q in the James Bond films, Sir James Fraser –

And Frazier himself speculates, well, why are they doing this unless they intend to plant a double? Okay.

Hess, during this time in the Tower of London, apparently actually secretly met on a couple of occasions with Winston Churchill himself and met several times, that we do know for certain, with some of Churchill's personal representatives. All right? And I'm going to mention this now. We'll get back to it. One of these representatives, some British lord, you know, you can never keep them straight, asked Hess, well, what about...

What about Greece? What about Norway? You know, how are we going to divvy up the world in this plan of yours? Now, the mention of Norway, I think, is highly significant. It's code, in my opinion, for Antarctica. Because, again, the Germans…

Because they went straight into the Queen Morslam, which at that point was a Norwegian claim. Right, right. Which again is a claim that before the war, the Reich disputed and rejected. So in other words, I think absolutely all of these claims were part of this peace treaty that Hess brought with him to Great Britain. Well, anyway, after all of these meetings, then Hess gets shifted to mind if court and

where he begins to show signs of mental deterioration, or supposedly showing signs. And then he's shifted from there up toward Wales, the northeastern corner of Wales, where he spends the rest of the war. However, as all of this is going on, Reinhard Heydrich, the head of the...

RSHA, the Reichsgeheiratshauptamt, basically the National Security Agency, wrote a memo to the foreign minister Joachim von Ribbentrop that his agents had placed Hess in Scotland. Isn't Ribbentrop and Heydrich somehow involved in the Valkyria story? Heydrich was dead. He had been assassinated long before the bomb plot.

Von Ribbentrop, no. I've never heard his name mentioned in connection with the Valkyrie thing. Because I regard the Valkyrie thing as the last, as a redoubt of this faction. Yes, absolutely. We're already talking about. But anyway, go on. Well, anyway, Heydrich writes a memo to von Ribbentrop saying that his agents had placed Hess in Scotland.

And Picknett and Prince follow up on this by interviewing some local British nobility and other people in Scotland at the time who very clearly state that, no, Hess was not in mind of court or in Wales. He was up here in Scotland in a castle. And they connect this then to the mysterious 16th person that was supposedly on the flight of the Duke of Kent,

who was, again, one of the members of the Royal family. And that flight actually did crash on takeoff from Scotland, but it had been painted with Swedish airplane neutral markings. Okay? Yeah.

Isn't this what they used to do if they wanted a plane to go past the radar? Yeah. Cooper claims that Hitler's plane, escape plane, was also with Swedish markings.

was that the real Hess was on that plane. And that the Churchill clique took it down because the official story was they were flying to Iceland to give some moral buck up to the troops there.

But, you know, if it's flying to Iceland, you take off from the western coast of Scotland, not the eastern coast, which is where it does. And that they were flying the real Hess back to Sweden and then to have him go on to Germany. And then at that point, it's a fait accompli. The treaty's signed. Hitler's out. Goering's in. Hess is still in charge of the Nazi party. And there we go. Peace, love, joy, and happiness. But, of course, that's foiled. Now.

At this point, the British have a problem because they don't ever acknowledge that the real Hefts may have been on that flight with the Duke of Kent. So they create a double, okay, to replace the real Hefts.

And this is where their story kind of dovetails with Dr. Thompson's story about this was a British… Yeah, because he thinks it's adorable already when Hess leaves Germany. But I think that's a red herring just like you. So let's not even go there. No, no, I do want to go there because the reason that it's necessary to take Thompson seriously is that he was a British physician assigned to Spandau Prison and the British Military Hospital in Berlin.

And he's the one that began the double thing because on several occasions he had opportunity to examine Hess, the Spandau. I mean, that's OK. But the double could have come at any point before Spandau. But at the point where Hess is leaving Germany for the first time. No, no, no. Al, you're chasing rabbits down a hole. I'm not going there. I'm going to the wounds. Right. This is what I want to get to.

So he examined Hess several times at the British Military Hospital in Berlin. And he noticed an absence of scarring on the wounds reportedly that Hess had suffered on his upper left chest during World War I.

And he began to think, oh my God, this isn't the real Hess. Okay. So he began this whole doubles hypothesis. Now, again, I am not saying that Hess was a double before the flight. All I am saying is, is that this is the first indicator that something fishy is going on with the Spandau Hess. Now let's turn for a moment before we get back to the wounds. Let's turn for a moment to Alan Dulles.

Because Alan Dulles at Nuremberg called one, and you're not going to believe this, called one of his friends and said, and told his friend privately, I want you to examine Hess. And his friend, whom we haven't mentioned yet, his friend said, well, why? And Dulles told him, I have a suspicion that it's not the real Hess and that Churchill had the real Hess executed. Right.

So his friend agrees to examine him. The British MPs, the military police, bring Hess in for this friend of Dulles to examine, but they refuse to allow him to remove Hess's shirt and look at the wounds. And so nothing comes of this.

And the doctor who did the examination was, guess who? Dr. Ewan Cameron, who subsequently worked under Alan Dulles in the CIA on the MKUltra mind control project. All right. People go to our program with Lawrence DeMello. I'm not sure if she's elaborating on this in part one or part two. Part two isn't out yet. It's been hugely delayed.

In her story about Borman and all this stuff, this same character pops up in a central role. Oh, boy. This Cameron dude, he's all over the place. Well, let's go further. Yep. I point this out. When Hess is discovered dead in Spandau, the British pathologist who does the official autopsy on Hess says,

is Dr. James MacDonald Cameron. Okay? Same surname. Now, here's the thing that nobody else has noticed that I did in the book. Both Ewan Cameron and James MacDonald Cameron are, of course, obviously from the same Scottish clan, but they also both studied medicine at the University of Glasgow.

So I am wondering if there is not a connection and that this may be how Dulles actually heard about the potential of a Hess double is through the Cameron family somehow. Now, obviously, James MacDonald Cameron was very young at the time that Hess flew to Great Britain. So there's some sort of back channel here. We don't know exactly what it is where Dulles is getting this. But now let's return to the wounds, okay? Because...

When Picknett and Prince began to examine the question of a double, they discovered something even more interesting that, to me, Al, absolutely cinches the case that what we had in Spandau was precisely a double. What they discovered was when they asked Frau Hess, Ilse Hess,

where her husband's wounds were, she said it was a durchschuss, a lungendurchschuss, a shot through the lung, and she pointed to her left chest. Well, when Spandau Hess was asked where his wounds were at one point, he pointed to his upper left chest, right above his nipple, and kind of said, through here. Okay? The trouble is...

When they found, when Picknett and Prince found the actual, original, authentic Bavarian Army military records of Hess's wound, the wound actually entered the upper left armpit and then exited below his shoulder blade.

Okay. So in other words, for Spandau has to have pointed to the real wound, he would have had to raise his arm and point to his armpit rather than as everybody thought at the time to his chest. Follow. Now, the other problem with the Hess double business is that while Hess is in great Britain, uh,

And the Spandau Hess complained of this to his nurse, Abdullah Malawi, that he was not permitted to smoke. Well, bad news, folks. The real Hess did not smoke. He was like Hitler. He was a health nut. Yeah, he was a health nut.

He was kind of a proto-vegan, if you want to get right down to it. But if a poor double is going through all these sorts of stressing things, obviously he would take up smoking. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Exactly. So it's clear that by that time, you've got a double. Now, let's go a little bit further in this double hypothesis, because this is something that Picknett, this is another little detail that Picknett and Prince discussed.

picked up on, but they didn't really pursue as far as I could tell. And that is that the Hess that is in mind of court is complaining about constipation and also that he's being drugged. He calls it acid. Okay. And I thought, gee, were they doping him with LSD?

Because one of the things that LSD, regular usage of it does is it gives you constipation. Okay? It also weakens your sense of identity, your ego. It weakens your sense of identity. Exactly. So there's clear indication that something fishy is going on with the other Hess. And the real, for me, Al, the real clincher is not even the wound or anything else. It's Hermann Goering at Nuremberg.

And I put these pictures in the book because I think in this case, the pictures really do tell a thousand words. Hess was behaving so bizarrely at Nuremberg that at one point, Goering blurted out during a recess in the hearing so that everybody could hear him. Okay. The judges, the other Nazis in the dock, the press corps, everybody. Okay.

Goering says, so how about it, Hess? Why don't you let us in on your little secret? I mean, that could refer to two things. Either the double thing, but it could also refer to the Antarctica thing. Well, it could refer to that. It could refer to the reason for his flight and so on and so forth. But the problem is Goering's behavior, whenever Hess is involved there at the tribunal, Goering...

At one point, and I reproduce this picture, there's a picture I put in the book of Goering holding papers in front of his mouth because he's laughing so hard and he's looking directly at Hess, okay? And on the other side of Hess, Joachim von Ribbentrop is leaning forward and he's got his head cranked around looking at Hess like, are you crazy? Are you for real? It's just, it's a priceless picture.

But I think, like Picknett and Prince, that probably Garing himself has begun to suspect that this guy, whoever he is, ain't the Hess that everybody thinks. And by the time that the business about the wounds comes out and all of that stuff, yeah, I think you're dealing with something serious.

very different. I'm about, I'm about 80, 80, 20 on this one or 70, 30, somewhere in there that, yeah, it's probably a double, but there's just enough, uh, reality to this guy in Spahn and Spahn dial that he may have been the real Hess. Wolf Rüdiger thought that he was, uh,

Although it's interesting that the family was not allowed to see Hess until about 1967. Yeah, let me now try to make it a little orderly here for those who are not so familiar with the details, because it's very obvious, Joseph, that at the time,

There is a double in this story. But the problem is, the problem is where does the double enter? Because there's so many. I mean, we already mentioned he could have entered already from the flight, but that's the least likely. Right. The real has was the one flying. But after that, there's so many points that

where you have that the double can enter. And we also have many points, like you've elaborated on, showing the real Hess is still present at some point until we lose all track of the real Hess and we don't know anymore. It's pretty certain that if there's a double, at least in this bando, maybe even in the Nuremberg, as you say, maybe even right after the flight,

But I have to corroborate here because many people may not know this. It was normal in that time for these people to have doubles. Stalin had doubles, probably Churchill too, at least Hitler. But then the question is, if there's a double here,

Would this be one of the original German doubles and could he have been on the plane with Hess? Because that could solve the whole thing about if Hess came with a double for some reason.

Then this doctor was right, although he was just half right. Because would the British have a double, so good double ready? Al, that is a fascinating speculation. And please let me elaborate on this. Sure. Okay? Let me get this out. The plane that Hess flew on was specially modified at Hess's request by Willi Messerschmidt himself.

It was a twin cockpit aircraft, a pilot and then a radio operator, all right, and a bombardier. So the back seat of this aircraft, Hess had Messerschmitt put a special radio set in that took up most of the cockpit.

And I believe that special radio set was to allow him to negotiate through not just the German air defenses, but the British air defenses. And it may have included perhaps some jamming equipment. I don't know. But in point of fact, it would have been impossible for another passenger to be in that plane. However,

What Picknett and Prince do mention is a very strange set of circumstances that occurred immediately after Hess's arrival in Scotland.

And that is that at one point, one of the RAF air bases up there stood down, a Luftwaffe plane landed at that air base. An officer got off the plane, walked over and saluted the British officers, handed them a package, and then departed.

And there were similar examples of British flights landing in Germany at the same time with the British handing something off. We don't know what. So is it possible that maybe on some of these mysterious flights between the two countries that are direct, that there may have been a double? Yeah, it's possible because.

Because it would be much easier to supply a double that you already have in your German stables to the British than have the British go out and find some local Briton that looked like Rudolf Hess. All they had to do with a professional double already at the scene –

was to start screwing his mind with the mind control thing. Yes. No, you are actually has. You've been training for this for, what, 10 years, 15 years? Yes, exactly. You are has. Yes, exactly. Exactly. So I'm fairly convinced that if there is a double substitution, it occurs after the flight, right?

And it may be that a double was part of the original deal somehow. That's a fascinating speculation. Yeah, to put off the Churchill crowd. Yeah, to put off the Churchill crowd. They had hegemony at this point, right? Right. Have you seen the Churchill movie that recently came out with Gary Oldman? No, I have not. Well, it's a brilliant movie in the way that it's...

you know, it's very well made and he, the good actors, good story, but of course it's all war propaganda. But the thing is, I think the, uh, you, you were speculating who would take over. I think it's pretty obvious who would take over on the British side in this peace plan. Right. Because, uh, in this movie, I forget his name. It's one of these dukes, but he was really supposed to take over after Chamberlain failed. Uh,

Right.

He was cooperating closely with the royal. Right. I'm not sure which one it was. You would know. Lord Halifax. Probably Halifax, yes. One of the H's. And by the way, people, Joseph makes a point in the book of all these H's. Everybody's name starts with H, both on the British side and the German side. One more elaboration I want to make, and then I'll hand it back to you.

Just to keep people on track here, it's pretty obvious. You are making the point out of evidence, but only from logic you can make the point that there had to be a...

I mean, Hess was given free passage both on the German and the British side. And there has to have been a double-tuple plan because if the Germans were to, you know, make a peace plan and then Hitler would stay in power, that would basically...

basically just mean that England surrenders they couldn't have that if it was the opposite if Hitler was to surrender but not Churchill that would mean that German would surrender and at that point none of them would want to surrender why would they

They hadn't battled anything out yet, so they would have to have a mutual assurance that both leaderships would go. Okay, let me address that because you're absolutely correct. This is, in my mind, this whole thing was a double coup d'etat plan as well as a peace plan to replace Churchill in Great Britain and Adolf Hitler in Germany, all right?

But how do you give assurance that the bona fides are actually there? And this, to me, Al, is one of the most priceless details in Picknett and Prince's research. They discovered that a Bulgarian had gone into the British embassy in Sofia, Bulgaria,

and told the British, seriously, that Hitler's pilot, Hans Bauer, the very same pilot, let us recall, that gave Hess the map of German air defense zones, okay, that Hitler's pilot,

had offered to through the back channel to the british to fly adolf hitler himself into great britain and turn him over to the british you know take off in his big condor aircraft and land him at heathrow and there you go all right yeah mind you we're going to france you know but um

The British, interestingly enough, took that seriously and kept units, apparently, according to Picknett and Prince, on standby for several months, expecting that to happen. So the way I look at it is, okay, you've signed this peace treaty, you've put the first steps into place, but

So how do you deliver bona fides to the British other than deliver Hitler right into their hands? So that's the assurance. And that means that the coup has worked and the British can go ahead and get rid of Hitler.

But there's an obvious question here because at the German side, you make the case that Hitler would have been let in on parts of it. It would be too risky to do everything behind his back. I think the only part Hitler didn't know about was that he was going to be replaced. Right, exactly. But the thing is, Hitler would have, first off, did have some influence on Hitler. They were very, very close. And we didn't even get to that in the biography. But anyway, they were close.

Some even speculate homoerotic connections. But even if Hitler was against this, he would have indulged us. He would have said, OK, OK, if we can gain something from this, if we can get some upper hand, go ahead. And maybe Hitler even himself would never take it seriously, but just wanted to exploit it to, you know, get rid of the British so he could go full power into Soviet Union.

it makes totally sense. It would be no risk to have Hitler in on that part of it. We're going to pacify the British. And this is the official narrative anyway. They always said that Haas wanted to have the peace plan. The only difference from the official narrative is that

Hitler was kind of shocked. Oh, you did this without my knowledge. But that would have to be in the cards anyway. If Hitler knew, he wouldn't have acknowledged it officially as you make a case for two. So that's okay. We all understand this. But on the British side…

Wouldn't the same apply to Churchill? Why would they keep Churchill in the dark? Or would it be easier? Maybe it would be easier for them to topple Churchill because he wasn't a dictator and they had the royals in their back. I think the royals would have known about this, if not Churchill. Absolutely. No, I think Churchill definitely knew that something was up because, as I point out in the book, he makes certain remarks in the House of Commons after the Hess flight itself.

that yes, there is this party in Great Britain, and he acknowledges its existence, and he goes so far as to say in those remarks that it is much larger than the House of Commons can imagine. So in other words, Churchill himself is under siege, but he knows that something is up. And the reason that we know he knows is that once it's clear that yes, they have their hands on Hess,

and that Hess is in the hands of people that he wasn't intending to be in the hands of, Churchill immediately calls the Duke of Hamilton, whom you recall Hess was himself saying, I'm coming to see the Duke of Hamilton. Churchill summons the Duke of Hamilton down to his summer residence and has a, let's just say, a lengthy discussion. And at the end of it,

says, well, I've got to go watch the Marx Brothers now. And everybody has, yeah, everybody has always taken this to mean that, okay, Churchill's not that interested and he's going to go watch a movie. No. That's ludicrous. The Marx Brothers was his code for the royal family. Right. For King George and Prince Edward and, you know, Prince George and all these members of the royal family. That's who he called the Marx Brothers.

So in other words, Churchill was saying, yeah, okay, now I've got the idea, so I'm going to have to have a little talk with the royal family here. So in other words, I do think that Churchill was kept abreast of things, not necessarily by the people involved in the plot. Let's remember, this is also the time that you had –

you had the Cambridge Five infiltrating MI5, and Churchill's getting a lot of his information from MI5 and MI6, which are not necessarily directly under the control of the royal family. No, they seem to be actually more on the war, Churchill's war faction. Right, exactly, exactly.

So you have all of these strange things going on, but I'm absolutely agreed with you. I think that Churchill probably before this happened knew that something was going on and then bang, Hess shows up and the guy is not dumb. It's immediately clear what's going on.

So I think Churchill is in the hot seat, quite literally, before all of this. And once the Ruhl Hess probably dies in the crash of the Duke of Kent's aircraft, then he knows he's sitting pretty. He doesn't have to worry. Yeah, but do you recall that? That Hess died already at the crash? At the Duke of Kent's airplane crash? Oh, yeah, the one that went out of Scotland later. Right, yeah. I think that's where it probably happened. Because...

They put together a very convincing case that there was an uncounted body on that aircraft. And they couple that with the fact that it was painted with Swedish markings and so on and so forth. I think it's a pretty convincing case. It is one of the possible – when did that happen, by the way? 1942. 1942.

During the war. But just like we can't be sure where the doorbell enters, at what point he was doorbell, we cannot even be sure when Hess exits. And another scenario, I don't think you touch upon it, is that there may have been a doorbell at periods, but that Hess was

Because why would the double be private to – well, you know what? We're going to get there later when we get to Antarctica. I have a couple of more points to do with the peace plan and this before we move on. First, just a minor thing. You said that Goering, to get his name on the record that he wasn't a part of the plot, you know, so Hitler wouldn't kill him.

He said that, oh, stop, stop the crazy man, Hess, from escaping. But then he came to Hitler and said, I didn't know about it. Why would he do that? Because he's already on the record knowing about it but trying to stop him. Why wouldn't he just say, hey, I knew, but I tried to stop him? Well, as I recall, when he is summoned to the Berghof and Hitler asks him, did you know anything about this?

Hesse, or pardon me, Goering's response was, no, I didn't. But that doesn't necessarily mean that he didn't tell Hitler about the phone call. So in other words, I think what Hitler was asking him, did you know about the plans for this? And that at that juncture, Goering may have probably told him, well, I've learned about it at the last minute.

And again, you know, we're speculating because there's nothing in the record to indicate what the nature of this conversation between Goering and Hitler may have been. But it would have been very easy for Hitler to pick up and corroborate the story, pick up the phone and call General Gallant and say, did the Reich Marshal call you at such and such a time?

to shoot down the deputy Fuhrer. And there you go. What we know is that at this point, uh, Goering fall from grace, Hitler stopped trusting Goering. Yes. In fact, uh,

Many exploited this because you would assume that Goering would replace Hess, but instead it was Bormann. It was Bormann. So Goering wouldn't have – he would have motivation also from that because he knew his grace had fallen. Well, yeah. His star had begun to fall with the failure at the Battle of Britain. But again, it was not Goering's fault. Hitler changed –

Yeah, that's immaterial. I mean, Hitler was Hitler.

But yeah, that had already begun to happen. And this coup plan, we can't just credit Hess for the peace slash coup plan because in the background rooms, Haushofer, isn't this really his plan? I think by and large, this is Haushofer's plan to

By extension, maybe Thule? By extension, the Thule-Gesellschaft, that faction or party, because it's so deeply intertwined with the German nobility that backed Hitler. Yeah, I think that you're looking at a Thule faction and Hess only kind of seals the deal. But I wouldn't say that's entirely Haushofer's plan, because when you look at Hess's own correspondence with the general and with his son Albrecht,

You can clearly see Hess dictating, well, don't do this, don't do that, use this channel, use that channel.

So Hess is still kind of the spider of the web. Yeah, but in a greater context, he gets his geopolitical influence from House Hofer anyway. Oh, yes, absolutely. Absolutely, he does. You make a point of that. Yeah, he does. He does. So, and another interesting detail you touched upon, Dulles. I mean, at this point, Americans, they were late in the war, and I'm realizing that the American influence is much stronger post-war because Dulles,

The British were still a mighty power up until World War II. Yes. And we see that they may have been...

more than the Americans involved in the survival of Borman. We have the Demello scenario, but we also have the other potential scenarios like Heydrich. Oh, Carter Heydrich. There's so many scenarios, but in all of them, the Brits seem to be more involved in this. I think the Americans takes over after the war because why would Dulles say to Manning that you're onto it, right? If he himself was the brain

behind the Bormann thing. And I think the same is the clue here because if Dulles learns from Cameron that MI6 is keeping the Hess thing, it means that the British are behind both the Bormann and the

Well, I disagree about the Bormann thing. I laid out a very elaborate scenario based on Carter Heydrich and his scenario in Critical Mass that I do think that this was largely an American thing. I do think the British are up to their eyeballs in the Hess affair in ways that we still do not entirely understand. Exactly.

They had too much at stake, and particularly the royal family had too much at stake in this whole thing to keep it covered up. So I do think that if there is a...

behind his murder, it's probably coming straight from London. Now, I'm not saying that the royal family would have been involved in the murder. It could have come from other factions in Great Britain wanting to protect other aspects of the Hess case. So it could be just about anybody in terms of the British deep state that may have been behind it. But there's something definitely that they're still wanting to keep secret. And

I suspect part of it has to do with the legalities of, as I mentioned earlier, about him being the last surviving title holder of Reichsminister and so on and so forth. There's something going on there that we still do not understand. Yeah, and you have – you make a point that he's sealing the deal. I think you should explain that a little more, the Haushofer letters.

You write here the German side, no peace with Churchill. The British side, no peace with Hitler. We touched upon that. But I think for people to buy this, because they don't have the details that makes this plausible when they don't have the book, go and get the book. But you can explain a little more why we are so certain that it's sealing and not proposing. Well, the reason why it's sealing is, as I mentioned before…

The Hess had the party apparatus translating a boatload of documents and he supposedly brought a briefcase with him with that was stuffed, apparently stuffed with lots of papers. And to this day, those documents have not shown up, but, uh,

Part of the clue here is that he had the Auslandsorganisation, the party intelligence service, translating documents from

And if you read the sources that Pitnett and Prince cite, they were translating the documents in German, English, and French. And that is an indicator that that probably was a treaty that they were translating, you know, French being the diplomatic language and all that. So that to me is an indicator that he's bringing something with them to sign that.

And the period when I think the real Hess is still alive, when he's in the Tower of London, that period is very clear that there's some very, very secretive back and forth between Hess...

And Mr. Churchill or representatives of Mr. Churchill, that's where you have that strange incident of the British Lord asking Hess, well, what about Norway? Again, which I think is code really for Antarctica because, you know –

A peace treaty between – let me put it this way. The Germans invaded Norway simply to secure their iron ore supplies that were being shipped into Narvik from Sweden and then shipped to Germany down the coast. Yeah, but couldn't they attain that by invading Sweden? Well, they could have, but Sweden would have been a much tougher military nut to crack. They took Poland. They took France. They almost took Soviet. I mean – No. Plus Sweden wasn't even affiliated. Sweden was independent. It would be much easier to –

deal with them. I'm thinking Norway has to do with Antarctica.

Well, I'm thinking Norway had to do with the iron ore plus Antarctica, precisely, because there was this pre-war dispute between Oslo and Berlin about who had the real claim to it, and the Reich Foreign Ministry just utterly rejected Norway's claim. Well, with the invasion and the toppling of the government and Quisling coming in, that's a settled matter at that point as far as the Germans are concerned. But the British, if you're

Putting out a peace treaty between Britain and Germany, well, part of that treaty is going to mean that the British are not going to interfere with iron ore shipments. So why are the British concerned about Norway? And again, I think it's because of Antarctica. Just on the resource explanation alone, if you're divvying up the world into spheres of influence, you're going to want to make sure that you have something about Antarctica in there. So I think Norway here is code for

for Antarctica because the British really aren't concerned about Norway otherwise. No, let's not go there yet. I think we need to deal with, I guess, Hess's death. First off, what is Spandau Ballet? Let's start there. Well, Spandau Ballet, that's the name of the very first and very last chapter in the book. It's the name of a British rock group in the 1980s that had a couple of very popular hits that

Gold is one of them, True is another one. You know, the song True was near the top of the charts in this country for quite some time in the 1980s. So it was a very popular group. The name of the group is what intrigued me. And I started digging into it and I discovered that Spandau Ballet was slang.

for one of two things. It was slang either for the, you know, the dance of nerves of executed prisoners in Spandau prison that had been executed by hanging. And by the way, they executed only those who were the most enmity to Hitler. Those who were kind of on Hitler's side, they were arrested and then let go early, like you said. I just want to make a point. Well, actually, the slang comes from the German Empire days when it was a prison for

capital punishment prisons and Spandau Ballet is the slang that the Germans used to describe the nerves twitching after a person had been hung. But it also was slang by the British in

For their soldiers, you know, that were trying to advance on German trenches in World War One and being mowed down by Spandau machine guns. You know, the British soldiers were dancing the ballet, so to speak. So it actually has two slang meanings.

But at the end of the book, I started to think, oh, my word, you know, is that group somehow making some allusion to Hess because – I think it's synchronicity. I think it's providence. It may be synchronicity. Who knows? Who knows?

But the lyrics, particularly of their two biggest hits, Gold and True, are so suggestive of the Hess case, it's not even funny. Just very, very strange stuff. So maybe we have a case here of synchronicity. Maybe we have a little case of MI5 using popular media to put out a message. Who knows? But at Spandau, Hess, on the day that he was discovered dead...

The way that Abdullah Malawi, his nurse, tells the story. He got a call. He was at home that afternoon. He had gone into the prison in the morning to check on Hess, to check on the equipment, you know, all that stuff. And he was at home. He received a call that you need to get to the prison right away. And he hoofs it. He lived very close to it. He hoofs it over to the prison.

He's met at the gate, and the British guards, they've just called him, won't let him in. And they delay his entrance, and finally he decides, well, I've had it trying to get through this. And as he's there, he notices some people in American uniforms that he's never seen before at the prison. So he takes another way into the prison. He finds Hess's body.

in a little kind of outdoor country shack that they'd built for him in the courtyard of the prison. And Hess is laid out cold. He's barely got a pulse. He's barely breathing. So Malawi starts CPR. And at some point, actually, I think he was probably already dead at that point, but Malawi pretends that

that he's doing CPR because, again, he's got these two big burly guards in American uniforms, again, that he's never seen before, and he begins to fear for his life. So he pretends to do CPR. He tells some of the guards to go get the oxygen tank, which he just checked that morning to make sure it was functioning. They bring the oxygen tank back, and it's out of oxygen.

And so he requests one of these Americans to help him do CPR. And the American is so brutal with this frail old man that he ends up breaking one of his ribs. This is found out later at the autopsy. And as he's doing this, the story begins to be told to Malawi that Hess had hung himself in that little garden house and

with a cord to an electric lamp. Okay? It's almost as if they don't want us to believe it because you cannot be rational and believe that claim. Right, exactly. Because, as Malawi himself pointed out, the cord...

Hess would have had to reach up and tie a noose on the window where the cord was supposedly placed and then place the noose on his head and then fall off the bench that was by the window. Okay.

But Malawi pointed out the major problem with that. By that time, Hess, or whoever he was, was so old and frail and so arthritic that he could not raise his hands above his shoulders, which he would have had to do to tie the knot.

And additionally, his hands themselves were so arthritic that he had to have people help him place eating utensils in his hands so that he could eat. How old was he at this point? 93. Right. Supposedly. Again, you know, if it's the real Hess, he's 93. And in addition to all this, he had to have help walking and so on and so forth. So physically, Malawi pointed out

that there was really no way that this whole scenario could have worked with Hess himself tying a noose on a window ledge up above his shoulders with arthritic hands. And he raised such a stink about this that Wolf Riediger Hess, Hess's son,

had an autopsy performed after they got the body from Spandau and the German pathologist concluded that Hess had been strangled from behind because the ligature marks on his neck were almost perfectly horizontal rather than stretching up behind the ears like it would have had to have been if it had been a suicide by hanging. So in other words, he was strangled from behind and again,

Hess did not have the musculature at that point to reach behind his head, tie a noose, and then strangle himself. He simply did not have the strength to do that. And that's why Wolf Rüdiger suspected that his father had been murdered. So you've got those two people, Hess's son and Abdullah Malawi, that raised all sorts of questions. And it's clear to my mind that, yes, this man was murdered, but

And those guards, again, according to that lawyer's affidavit that I referred to earlier, those guards apparently had put on American uniforms but were in actual fact probably British SAS. Yeah, because I was – I'm thinking at this point in history, CIA is much more powerful and influential. And when the Soviets do that cunning move of saying, no, no, we don't want to –

keep him anymore and throwing the ball then they have to because they've been blaming conveniently all this time oh poor Hesper it's the Soviets it's the Soviets now they're exposed and they're panicking yeah

So I'm thinking, yes, it was under British because it was rotating who was controlling and this was under the British responsibility. They were, as soon as they took over, this happened. But on the other hand, the fact that American soldiers are involved can indicate that there's a joint operation from both MI6 and CIA. At the minimum, I think that the French and the British and the Americans, the French and the Americans probably would have said,

given a nod and a wink, you know, go ahead and do this. And again, the timing here is very, very weird because within two years of Hess's death, Thatcher is gone and so is Gorbachev. That's the other part of the story that's rather fishy.

And then Germany is reunified. Isn't Bush senior a big shot at this point? Oh, yes, absolutely. Absolutely. What's his role at this point? Well, at this juncture, he is vice president in two years of,

Three years when Germany is reunified, it's Bush that gives the nod and the wink to go ahead to Chancellor Kohl and go ahead with your annexation, which really is what it was of East Germany. So, yeah, it wouldn't surprise me that there's a Bush angle to this. But again, there's been no evidence of this happening.

No, but speaking of evidence, what you have mentioned now to substantiate the case that it was a murder is just a little piece of all the circumstantial indiciums, indications all through this book here. So just for you people know this, that even if we are going through the main line now, don't think that you don't have to read the book because…

It's just too much for us to cover and it's just not trivial details. It's so many interesting tidbits all through this book. You really did a good job of, well, first of lifting the best points from these other books, but also injecting your own interesting angles and revelations and dot connectings notwithstanding because you do renew this story to a far degree, not even considering the Antarctica aspect.

Thank you.

it wouldn't be in their interest to let Hess loose. First off, on the official side of it, Hess would have more claim to take over any post-war Nazi faction than Bormann would, and he would be more popular. They wouldn't even need a Hitler if Hess entered the scene. So just that point alone would be enough to contain Hess. Right. Yeah, I agree. I think if...

If there's any involvement of this Nazi international, they probably wouldn't want to have seen him released either for the simple reason that he could spill too many secrets that they would want to keep hushed up. So, yeah, I'm in agreement with you there. Yeah, and we'll get to those secrets. But so we are at the death scene.

Yeah, I think maybe we should go a little more, before we take a new break, into the many weird dealings with this death. I mean, has a son. Maybe we could mention a bit about this, because he tried to blew the whistle about it.

Well, yeah, he did try to blow the whistle. In fact, as I point out, Hess's son's lawyer was also Hess's lawyer at Nuremberg, Dr. Alfred Seidel. He had the same lawyer. And it was when Malawi contacted Wolf Riediger and explained all of the strange circumstances that he had seen that day when he went in to treat his father or whoever, that

Uh, Wolf Riediger was the one that got that German pathological report done that concluded that it was, there were clearly ligature marks on his throat, but they were not the kind of ligature marks that you would encounter with a typical hanging. And that, you know, that kind of sealed it for Wolf Riediger. Now, Wolf Riediger published two books about all of this, and they're very hard to get a hold of.

But Wolf Riediger also points out that his father had been involved with the Jewish question and trying to mitigate some of that. And he questioned whether or not it may have been the Israelis that may have also been behind Hess. And he mentions he doesn't substantiate this to any great degree.

But he does mention that he had heard that when Menachem Begin and Anwar Sadat met with President Carter at Camp David in 1983, not 1983, 1978, that Begin apparently, according to Wolf Rüdiger, pulled President Carter aside and said that Hess must never leave the prison.

And again, there's no substantiation for this. But if there is an Israeli involvement, I suspect, again, that it's because there's some narrative about the whole Zionist thing that is still very much a secret and that Hess may have spilled that they were worried about.

I think we'll take that in part three, actually. Yeah, okay. That's fine. Yeah, that's fine. But what about the autopsy? There's discrepancies there, too. Yes. Yes. The British autopsy by Dr. James MacDonald Cameron, or Malcolm Cameron, I should say, is supposedly the official autopsy, and that's the one that concluded death by hanging. However...

Interestingly enough, there apparently was a secret version of that autopsy, which Wolf Riediger had somehow obtained. And I think that that version of the autopsy was also kind of one of the things that spurred him to conduct, have his own private autopsy done.

on his father's body, which showed diametrically different results from the official version, namely death by strangling rather than by hanging with the straight horizontal ligatures. So yeah, the autopsy is in question too. So everything about this case, doubles, war wounds in the wrong place, a double who can't remember where the war wounds were,

And then the other thing that Wolf Rüdiger also pointed out was that on some occasions when he insisted on seeing his father and the prison authorities wouldn't let him, he was allowed one time when he just finally demanded to see him. They allowed him to see his father and he gives this very detailed description of the way his father looked and acted and

And you cannot come away from this description with any other impression other than that this poor man had been drugged to the gills. And I suspect that the reason that the British built a whole wing of their military hospital was

In Spandau, pardon me, in their military hospital just for Hess was precisely because if it was a double, they needed to kind of do reinforcement of the double personality from time to time. Because Wolf Riediger mentions this episode where he's dealing with someone that's not in their right mind.

Very, very strange thing. Even though Wolf Rüdiger continued to believe all of his life that the man in Spandau was indeed his father, along with Hess's wife, Ilse Hess, that thought the same thing. I'm going to ask you after about different hypothesis here. But was Hess suicidal? I mean, any person, Hess or Adobel, being suicidal?

locked up for so long living to your 93 half of your life in that prison it's insane that he certainly would okay I knew that his release was and we should mention that too he didn't want to be released because he knew he would be killed you can tell us about that but just the mere logic of

I'm in prison half of my life, and then I know that I may be free. Oh, I suddenly think, I don't want to live anymore. I've been here for so long now, but suddenly I realize I don't want to be here anymore. I mean, that doesn't cope. He should have done this decades ago. Yeah, the problem there is that Malawi, his nurse, again –

reports that Hess was in good spirits, good frame of mind, that he was not, when he visited him that morning, he certainly didn't seem to be depressed or anything like that. Although, when Malawi told him of Gorbachev's decision to reverse the Soviet stance, he records that Hess did not look happy like he expected him to look. And Malawi asked him, why? Why aren't you happy?

And Hess told him at that juncture that the reason I'm not, you fool, is because this is a death warrant. They will kill me.

He knew they would never let him out. Right, exactly. And the other thing about Hess in Spandau that, again, is very, very peculiar that is part of Malawi's story is that he had given Malawi on a couple of occasions documents that he had written to smuggle out of Spandau and gave very specific, elaborate instructions on how to get these documents into the right people's hands. Right.

And Malawi, interestingly enough, does not say whether or not he actually did this. He simply reports that this is what— He didn't want to incriminate himself. Right, exactly, exactly, because it was strictly forbidden for any of those prisoners to have any communication of that nature with the outside world. So Malawi, there's something going on there that has not come to light yet, I think, but in any case, at no time.

Did Malawi report that Hess was depressed or suicidal or anything? Because, again, had he been a medical charge nurse to a patient like he was, particularly of that stature, it was his duty, it was his obligation to report any suicidal feelings or thoughts to the prison authorities. And, you know, he would have done so. And, again, this is not in the record at all. In fact, it's contradicted by what Malawi says.

The reason I think that there could be a double all the way here, that we could deal with both Hess and Adobo, is that at any point in this story,

You can argue for a Hess and you can argue for a Doble. Right. For the longest time, Hess didn't even want to see his family. Right. And I wouldn't go by Rudiger's because he hardly knew his father. Right. The wife is a different story. But then again, what? How many decades since they saw him? Right. Right.

It's pretty tricky, but why wouldn't the real Hess want to see his family? Right, exactly. And then suddenly he wanted to see his family. Right. And then he didn't. And then he made code. And at some point, you point out that they may have tried to kill him. But there was some kind of intervention in the last minute, so they couldn't. Well, again, it was Wolf Rüdiger. Hess was scheduled for prostate surgery prior to his death, which would have been a very, very invasive surgery for...

uh, prostate removal and Wolf Riediger suspects that they were going to try and off him, uh, during the, during the procedure. And, you know, he monitored it very closely to make sure that that wouldn't happen. So there were, in his opinion anyway, uh, attempts to get rid of Hess. But I do want to mention something very strange about his wife, uh, Frau Hess. Um,

And Picknett and Prince, again, this is the kind of detail that they look at in that massive book on this whole case. And again, kudos to them. Ilse Hess, when finally she was permitted to see Hess after 21 years, it had been 21 years from Nuremberg in 1946 in his sentencing, and he didn't even really want to see his family at Nuremberg either. Right.

In other words, they had no close personal contact. If the family was there, you know, they were in the gallery. They weren't anywhere close to him. And frankly, I don't know that the family ever did attend those hearings. But when 1967 came and they were allowed to visit him, Ilse Hess, who always maintained that this was indeed her husband, made a very peculiar remark that he

her husband's voice had become deeper, lower. And as Picknett and Prince point out, as men age, their voice gets higher with the drop in testosterone. And only in very rare medical cases does a man's voice drop as he ages. And it's a kind of strange medical condition having something to do with the larynx.

So that's another little detail, once again, that might indicate that Ilse Hess was dealing with a very good double of some sort. And again, she hadn't seen her husband really on a first-name basis for 26 years at that point. Right.

Yeah, if the double was a smoker, that could explain why the double had a deep voice. That could explain part of it, exactly. Because they would probably also have trained him to talk closer to Hess's voice. Because you can't just alter the voice, at least not back then. You can do anything, you can have plastic surgery, but the voice you have to train. But if this poor chap is a chain smoker...

And why would he even keep up the charade at this point, right? Well, this is the other problem. As I mentioned, one of the Hesses in Britain complained to Abdullah Malawi that he wasn't able to smoke. Okay? Exactly. But in Spandau, he doesn't smoke. Oh, he doesn't smoke? No, he doesn't. No. So again, it's like you said before, at every turn, you're confronted with this puzzle. Is this the real Hesse or isn't it?

I mean, one solution to it could be that at any given time there was two Hesses, both an original and a double. There could have been two Hesses, original and double, or two doubles. Who knows? This is a hall of mirrors, and this is why, in my estimation, no academic ever wants to touch the Hess case because it is such a hall of mirrors. There's just no way of getting around it.

Do you know if Irving has touched it? Oh, yes. David Irving did do a book on Hess, largely about Hess's stay in Great Britain, which Picknett and Prince used to a certain extent. In my opinion, it's not David Irving's best book, but it does fill in a lot of gaps. He's kind of mainstream on a lot of things, actually, despite having been stigmatized for not being that. Right.

But he doesn't touch the double thing? No. His book is solely focused on the period of time of Hess in Great Britain. And he uncovers a lot of details, but to my memory, I don't think he goes very deeply into the question of doubles. But Hess in Britain, that would be from 40 to 43? 41 to 46, right before he's shipped back to stand trial.

Oh, 41 to 46. Right, right. And you think he may have died in 43? I think he may have died in 42, in the crash of the Duke of Kents plane. Could we end this part two by you giving us a big, I mean, you can't do it justice, but just mention the most common double scenarios that's out there.

Well, the most common ones are, first of all, Dr. Thompson's book, where he thinks that there was a double substituted during the flight itself. And again, it's such a complicated scenario, I just don't think it works. And the other double scenarios are that

Hess was, you've mentioned one that I don't mention in the book, that there was a Hess double that was possibly supplied from Germany during all of these strange flights. But the real double theory is that at some point after the real Hess is transferred from the Tower of London, where he was for about two months, to mind of court, that at some point during that transfer, you have a double.

And then there's the possibility that at the other place that he was held in Wales, and I can never remember the name of it, that there was another double there. So the substitution, to me, looks like it occurred in Britain and by the British. But the real question is, where are they getting the double from? After the war, wouldn't it be a case for putting the double in prison?

And God knows what the reel has...

Well, yeah, but the problem there, Al, is you have to give that double a Hess personality. And everything I've read in the literature about altering personality in such a major way, this is an operation that would take at least a year, if not longer, of drugs, hypnotherapy, and so on and so forth. So in other words, if you're saying that there's a double at Nuremberg, you have to push –

What if they – you're discounting an obvious thing here, and that is that these people, you can't trust them anymore.

one meter. So what if they incentivize him to play Hess? And then as soon as they get... There's any number of ways you can do this, but again, you're going to have to train an individual in enough details of Hess's life to be able to spontaneously recall these things in certain situations. So in other words, you're still having to go through the

the process of creating a double that can act the part and pull it off sufficiently

And to my mind, that's going to require some considerable months, if not a couple of years of pretty intense training. Yeah, but I'm not so concerned about when they trained him. I mean, he could have been brought with Hess from the outset, if nothing else, than to put the Churchill people off. I'm more thinking of when did he really enter the shoes of Hess? Because as soon as they get him into Spandau, they don't have to care anymore because he's so completely cut off from...

the world. So whenever they trained or manipulated him, Nuremberg itself, I think, could be done just by, look, you do this mission for us now, and afterwards it will be, you know, everything will be great. Then the poor guy is put in. And this is really probably very unrealistic, but could there be two Hesse's in Spander? Well,

Not in Spandau at the same time. However, if you've got a stable of doubles, and I think it very likely that this might be a possibility, if you've got a stable of doubles, you're going to have to rotate them in and out of there.

For certain periods of time. And the perfect time to do that would be when Hess goes for his regular checkups at the British Military Hospital. Right, right. Because that area of the British Military Hospital was built especially for Hess. And it was sealed off.

from the rest of the hospital. So you could pull one Hess out of there, you know, for his regular checkup and substitute another and put another one back in there. I think that that's possible. Very possible. In fact, I think it probably is likely given the length of time that's involved with this. But as to when a double steps on stage, I think it's fairly clear that

That at some point when he is in Nuremberg, you're dealing with a double. I think at that point you've got the double on the stage because whoever Hess is in Britain, he was kept out of the limelight, out of the public eye. He was not paraded on British newsreels or by British propaganda or anything like that. I mean, they clamped down so hard on that it's not even funny.

Joseph, I'm hearing a baby in the background. That's my dog. She's whining. She's wanting. She's on the bed, and she's wagging her tail, and I think that means she needs to go. Let's take a break. All right. I'll be back in about 10 minutes. No problem. Okay. All of our files are free and will remain free. If you like the show, you can show support by donating $1 to help with expenses.

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