Ivan Misner: How a Quiet Introvert Built BNI into a $16 Billion Referral Powerhouse | Ep. 193
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He was just hanging out with Richard Branson Necker Island. He's about to go to Antarctica. So we called him at a good time. But I'm going to read his bio here. Dr. Ivan Meisner is the founder and chief visionary officer of BNI, the world's largest business networking organization on the planet.

Founded in 1985, the organization now has over 140,000 chapters throughout every populated content in the world. Last year alone, BNI generated 11.5 million referrals, resulting in over $16 billion.

That's a billion dollars worth of business for its members, which is incredible that that is a highlight. It's not about the organization. It's about what it's doing for its members. He is from the University of Southern California, has his PhD, New York Times bestselling author, written over 26 books.

books, including one of his latest, Who's in Your Room. So check that out right now. I'm sure you can get it on Amazon or anywhere. Who's in Your Room. He's also a columnist for entrepreneur.com, has been a university professor, as well as a member of the board of trustees for the University of La Verne. He's been called the father of modern networking by both Forbes

and CNN. He's considered one of the world's leading experts on business networking, has been a keynote speaker for major corporations and associations. He's also been featured in LA Times, Wall Street Journal, New York Times, numerous TV, radio shows, CNN, BBC, Today Show, and NBC. So among his many awards, which we were highlighting earlier, he has been named Humanitarian of the Year by Red Cross,

and has been the recipient of the John C. Maxwell Leadership Award. He is proud that he and his late wife, Elizabeth, are the co-founders of the BNI Charitable Foundation, which is such a big part of what he does today. He's reached empty nester status. That's exciting. After happily raising their three children. Oh, and in his spare time,

He is also an amateur magician and a black belt in karate, which I did not even know until now. So maybe he has a magic trick for us. I'm not sure. But welcome, Dr. Ivan. Wow, Dr. Ivan. Thank you so much. I appreciate it. And just for the record, it's 10,400 chapters, not 100,000 chapters. I'd like 100,000 chapters, but we have a ways to go for that.

That is just so amazing. Yeah, so exciting. So if you're watching us live, if you're seeing his back, it's not really a backdrop. It's his real office, but it looks so flawless and curated so beautifully. It doesn't look real. Dr. Kyven.

Thank you. There's actually a great story that goes with this office. When my late wife and I decided that we were going to buy some property in Austin, we were living in a condo downtown. And I said to her, look, I think we're ready. Get whatever house you want. I don't care. Here's the budget, whatever you want.

And she was gone one day. One day. I said, all I want is three things. I want to be right on the water. I want my own office. I don't want to turn it into a, I don't want to turn a bedroom into an office and I want a wine cellar. Otherwise, get whatever you want. She was gone one day, came back, said I found our dream home. I came out here and looked at it. It didn't have any one of those three things. Not one. And I'm like, really? Really? I just wanted three things. And that's when I found out she should have been in sales because

She said, look, there's this empty spot right next to the house. Just build your dream office, honey, your dream office. And I'm like, I like that idea. So that's what I did. And she said, look, there's a place under the wine cellar. There's a place under the house. You can turn that into a wine cellar. And so, yeah, it ended up becoming my dream house. But it wasn't when I came and looked at it. There you go. I'm curious. In that wine cellar, what's your favorite wine of all time?

Well, I think Quintessa, which is a Bordeaux blend style. Cabernet's, I like big, bold, hit you over the head Cabernet Sauvignons. Chateau Montalena is one of my favorite. But Bordeaux style blends, Quintessa, Opus, Insignia, Episode, these are all amazing Bordeaux blend wines that I love.

Thank you. Now I feel like I need to eat some steak to match your cab right there. All right. Well, I got 1,600 bottles in my cellar, so there's plenty of space for more wine. Oh, there you go. That's awesome. But Dr. Ivan, tell us, what was your journey like to get where you are? Well, I grew up in a very low middle income family and neighborhood neighborhood.

But I had great parents who were very supportive. And I was actually accepted to Occidental College with a 50% scholarship. The problem was I couldn't afford the other 50%. So I ended up going to a junior college in Southern California and then a state university in California. And it was my master's and doctorate that I did at USC.

And, you know, I started my journey in business while working for a transportation company in California as an employee. I was a general manager for a light manufacturing plant for a while and started my own consulting business in my 20s. And that's really what led me to start BNI. I was looking for referrals for my consulting practice.

And I started BNI to get referrals for my consulting practice and to help my friends. And it snowballed. People just kept coming and saying, would you help me open up a chapter? Would you help me open up a chapter? And my Brody moment. Now, do you remember Sheriff Brody from Jaws, the movie Jaws? Yes. Wow.

Sheriff Brody, towards the end of the movie, he saw the shark for the very first time. And he went into the wheelhouse where the captain was. And he said to the captain, I think we're going to need a bigger boat. And my Brody moment was the end of 1985 when we had opened 20 chapters without trying. And I realized that I had struck a chord in the business community. And that was the point at which I really sat down and thought,

created my plan to scale the business, to make it something much larger than what it was. Wow. I have to say, 20 years old, built a consulting firm, created a referral business, and took off. What a journey. Because most entrepreneurs would say, I didn't have that kind of... What do you think works?

What with, with, um, business in general or would be it? Yes, with business in general. You know what? I think the biggest mistake that businesses make is they try to do a thousand things six times. You want to be successful in business, you're going to do six things a thousand times, not a thousand things six times.

And what I have found is that business people are constantly chasing bright, shiny objects. I keep this in my desk. If you're on Clubhouse, you can't see it, but it's this little crystal ball and it's on a chain. And it's like people see these bright, shiny objects and they go, oh, let's try this. Let's do that. And they keep chasing objects.

things that aren't part of the fundamentals of their success in business. And if I have any strength at all as a business person, if I have any superpower as a business person, it's that I am a dog with a bone. I take something and work it and work it and work it and work it. So I think if you want to be successful in business, you got to do six things a thousand times, not a thousand things.

Six times. And by the way, it doesn't have to be six. It could be five. It could be seven. But it's a handful of things that you do over and over again. Thank you for sharing that, Dr. Ivan. Now, what was your vision in the beginning as you scale BNI? What was your vision? What was the ultimate vision or your BHAG? Yeah, well, and Kate, please just call me Ivan. So I, you know, my, I wanted to help more business people. I mean, in my introduction, you heard he passed $16 billion.

uh, we passed almost 12 million referral for January 16 billion with a B, uh, in business for members around the world. And I really wanted to help more people, um, get business referrals because most business people don't know how to do that. And so my BHAG was, um, I came up with it in June of 1986, 18 months after I started BNI.

I went to the library because you didn't have anything like Mr. Google where you could just look up stuff online. I had to go to a library, check out books, look at reference books for populations. And I wanted to figure out how many chapters could BNI have someday. And I calculated that BNI could have more than 10,000 chapters someday.

And I remember telling a friend of mine this in June of 1986, I made 10,000 chapters. And he said, Dylan, and how many chapters do you make for battles? I said, 30.

He said, 30. And you think you could have 10,000? I said, yeah, I really do. He said, well, it's good to have goals. Good luck with that. And we hit 10,000 chapters in the middle of COVID. In December of 2020, we passed the 10,000 chapter rule. Wow. What achievement. And I can't believe you got it. I mean, at the end of the day, it's needed for entrepreneurs more than ever. Yeah.

Yeah, it really is. Business people are fools and most business people don't really know how to generate them. And so what we've tried to do in BNI is to codify a system to do that. I went to a lot of networking groups as a young man that I felt were very mercenary. Everyone was trying to sell to one another. And then I went to these other groups that were very social. It's happy hour and hors d'oeuvres.

And I didn't like either of those. The missionary groups, you know, I felt like I'd been slimed and I needed to go home and get a shower.

the social groups were a waste of time for me. What I wanted was something that was focused, but not totally transactional and relational, but not totally social. And the glue that would hold it together is this principle of core values of giver's gain, this idea that if you want to get business, you have to help other people get business. And that's been a principle that has been a guiding light for the organization over the years.

Thank you so much. Now, Ivan, what is leadership means to you? Leadership to me, leadership is not about managing and complying. It's about motivating and inspiring. Leadership is not about managing and complying. It's about motivating and inspiring. Now, look, managing and complying is important, but that's business. That's management. That's business.

leadership,

is about inspiring people. I studied under Warren Bennis at USC. He was in his day the world's leading expert on leadership. That mantle has been handed over to John Maxwell, who's a friend, and he and I have done a number of videos together. And Maxwell is absolutely the world's leading expert today on leadership. But I studied under Warren Bennis and learned a lot about leadership. I studied under a brigadier general

A retired brigadier general, which was an amazing experience to study under him at UST. He said, we teach officers not only management, how do you manage people, but we teach leadership. And he said, when they go to a ridge, when they climb up a ridge and they say, follow me, we don't want people to say, well, let's have a committee meeting and talk about that.

We need people to follow that officer. And so we teach leadership as well as management. And they're different, both important, but they're different. Thank you for sharing that. We all can learn from that. Wow. Now, the last time you were here, Ivan, you said network is not your network, which a lot of us were saying it incorrectly. Can you tell us?

That's why that's not true at all. Okay, repeat that because I'm not sure I said that, but go ahead. Yeah, you mentioned it. I wrote it because I have it in my notes while you're here. You said your net worth is not your net worth because it really is who's going to call you when you need help. Yeah, okay. So you gave me context there. I appreciate it. You know, what I was referring to is context versus connections, right?

I have amazing contacts in my database. The question though is, can I reach out to one of those contacts? If I called them, would they take my call? And if I asked for a favor, would they be willing to do the favor?

So it's not just the connections that you have. I'm sorry, it's not just the contacts you have, it's the connections that you have. It's how well you know each other. You know the old saying, it's not what you know, it's who you know? I don't think it's either. I don't think it's what you know or who you know. It's how well you know each other that really, really makes a difference. And so the real question is, could I call those people that are in my contacts? Can I ask them for a favor? Would they even take my call?

And if they take it and I ask them for a favor, would they be willing to do it? That's, I think, what makes a powerful personal network. Wow. Thank you for that. Now, Ivan, how can someone improve their networking skills? You know, there's a mindset and a skill set to networking. And you need to understand both. But the whole thing starts with the right mindset.

And the right mindset begins with a concept that I call the VCP process, visibility, credibility, profitability. You have to first be visible. People have to know who you are and what you do. Then and only then can you move to credibility where people know who you are, they know what you do, they know you're good at it. And that one takes time. But when you get to credibility, then you can move to profitability where people know who you are, they know what you do, they know you're good at it, and they're willing to refer business to you.

What tends to happen is that most people use networking as a face-to-face cold calling opportunity. You know, "Hi, my name's so-and-so, let's do business." And they try to jump over visibility, over credibility, get right to profitability,

And one of my books, I call that premature solicitation, which you don't want to say fast three times, it'll get you in trouble. But I see that happen in networking groups. So, you know, you go to networking groups to work your way, in my opinion, to work your way through the VCP process, through visibility, through credibility, through profitability. And the process is a marathon, not a sprint.

It is a marathon. It takes time to build relationships with people. Networking is more about farming than it is about hunting. It's about cultivating long-term relationships with other people. So that's the mindset. The skill set, gee, you know, I could talk for hours about the various skill sets that are necessary to build a powerful personal network. But you need to look at both mindset and skill set.

So I have a couple of questions on that. Sorry, I have a couple of questions on that. I forgot to unmute myself on Clubhouse. So you bring up a good point, and this is something I'm really bad at. We were just at an amazing event with some incredible people. However, though, I'm the worst in networking environments. I don't know what it is. I just...

I like clam up. I can't talk. I get nervous. I don't know something about it. What do you tell the people that when they get around a lot of people, they just don't, it just becomes very difficult for them to open up versus when you're in the small environments. There's just something about being around people that, that I don't know. I just do. I'm horrible at it. So, you know, a lot of people will ask me or they'll say to me, you know, I'm an introvert. I have a hard time networking and I have a hard time connecting with people.

And I understand that. I'll tell you a true story about 15 years ago. And you can find this on my blog. If you go to ivedmiser.com, you can find this article. I'll give you the title of it in a minute. It was probably 15 years ago, maybe a couple more than that. And I was at home with my late wife in L.A. and...

We were talking. It was one of the few nights where the kids were at some school event that we didn't have to be at it. It was just the two of us. It was really nice. And I said something. I don't even remember the topic, but I said something about, oh, well, honey, you know me. I'm such an extrovert. And she said, no, you're not.

And I'm like, what? Of course I'm an extrovert. I run the world's largest networking organization. I'm an old speaker. Of course I'm an extrovert. And she's like, hey, whatever you say, sweetie, but, you know, not so much. And so I'm getting annoyed with her.

because she's telling me that I'm basically an introvert and she's reading this book called The Introvert and Extraordinary Love and she's telling me how I'm an introvert and one of the things in there is that introverts recharge their batteries by being alone. I'm like, well, that kind of sounds like me, but I am not an introvert. So I go into my office in LA, my home office, and I get on Google and I find a test and I take this test and it says, congratulations, Ivan Weisner, you are an introvert who is a situational person.

extrovert. And that blew my mind. By the way, the article is OMG, I'm an introvert. You can find this at IvanMeister.com. I wrote it the next day. And it hit me the kind of network I started. You know, I could have started anything.

Big mixers, hundreds of people mingling. But no, I get uncomfortable meeting people in a large environment. I have this technique where I and it's like so much fell in line for me when when I realized this. I have this technique where when I go to a networking event that I, you know, a large networking event and I don't know a lot of people, I have someone introduce me around.

Somebody who knows the people or if it's at a BNI event, you know, somebody who is helping to run that BNI event. I have them walk me around and introduce me because I don't like just walking up to strangers and introducing myself. So I am here to tell you that introverts can be just as good. A lot of people think I'm pretty good at networking.

Introverts, I believe, can be... And by the way, it said you're a situational extrovert. So when you are talking about a topic that you are passionate about, you come across as an extrovert. Otherwise, you're an introvert. Go apologize to your wife. It didn't say that, but I did. So...

The thing with being a situational introvert is that I created a network that was about having smaller groups of people, 30, 40, sometimes less, sometimes more. We meet every week. You get to know each other. You build relationships. And it hit me, this is perfect really for introverts. Introverts can be great at networking.

Because I think a good networker has two ears and one mouth and uses them both proportionally. So introverts are really good listeners. They're better listeners than extroverts. Extroverts love to talk. And what's their favorite subject? By themselves. By themselves, yeah. So, you know, introverts and extroverts have a strength and a weakness when it comes to networking. Extroverts have no problem meeting people, but their favorite topic is themselves.

Introverts have a hard time meeting people, but they're good listening, you know, good networker, two ears, one mouth, uses them both proportionally. So I think being an introvert is fine. There are techniques that you can use to help you connect with people more effectively.

Wow, that's awesome. That actually makes me feel so much better. I have to say I forced myself to network often. And it's exhausting mentally. I can't force myself where I'm not like I would rather be a listener. But it's it's amazing. But I love how you said, I

Ivan, that building relationship, it's not hunting, it's farming. What are some of the things that people are doing wrong when it comes to building a relationship with amazing people? Like for example,

You, yourself, or Richard Branson, what are some of the things that people are doing it wrong? Well, they're using networking as a face-to-face cold calling opportunity when they're networking peer-to-peer. When they're networking up, networking with somebody above their weight class, who they think is more successful than they are, I think the biggest mistake they make is trying to sell to the person too quickly, which is a mistake most people make, but it's particularly a mistake if you're networking up.

And the reason for that is people like Branson and really, really successful business professionals, everybody and their mother is trying to sell something to them. So if you want to be like everyone else, try to sell something to them. And let me tell you, do you want to ruin the relationship quickly? Do that. Instead, what you want to do is add value to them. So you want to find out what they're interested in. What are they working on? What are they doing?

And when you find out what it is that they're working on or what they're doing, see if you can add value. See if there's something you can do to help them. And if you go to my blog, again, at IvanMyson.com and do a search on Branson, you'll see on a couple of my visits to Necker Island, I asked, you know, I talked to Branson about some of the things he was working on, one of his books and this idea of the B team, the business team, where business can be noble and do things in communities. And I said, how can I help you promote this?

And, and he said, well, you don't get it out to your, to your network. And I, and I said, would you like to do, would you like to do a video and I'll promote it on my video? And he said, yeah, of course. So rather than ask him for something or ask him to do business, I asked him, how can I help you? And, and so, you know, so far he has generally said, well, you could do this and I'm happy to do it. And that's the best way to build value, especially if you're networking up.

Hey, Kate, just really quickly on that. Thank you. Because that I think clears up a lot of a lot of people want to say, how could I add value to somebody like Richard Branson or Ivan Meisner? What do you say to people like that? Maybe they don't have that network. Is there is there something else that people can do who might say, wow, this person is so untouchable?

How can I add value to them first? Yeah, well, everybody comes to the table with value, some type of value. So for me, I have an audience. And so that's the value that I can bring to the table. But everybody has something that they can bring to the table to help. Let me give you an example of what I'm talking about.

I had an associate who came to me once, and he was in an organization that I'm in, and he really does a lot of work with online website promotion stuff. And he came to me with this idea, and I said, his name was Alex, and Alex said, hey, you should try this. And I'm like, I'm open to it, but my budget is set for this year. And he's like, no, no, no.

I would like to do it for you. Just, I need to experiment with it so that I can sell it to people. Like, shit, okay. You want to do that? That's fine. So he did it. And then like a couple months later, he reached out to me and he wanted to tweak something. And I said, okay. And a few months later, something else and then something else and then something else. At the end of a year, he called me up. Now he had done nothing at this point, but pour into me with the kind of skillset that he had.

the end of almost a year, he called me up and he said, Ivan, I have a favor to ask you. And I said, hang on, stop, Alex. The answer is yes. What is it that I'll be doing? And he said, how could you say yes? You don't even know what it is. I said, well, you have done nothing but pour into me for a year. You've given him, you know, I said to him along the way, you know, what can I do for you? He said nothing. So the first time he says yes,

I need a favor. The answer is yes. And I said, I can't imagine that you're going to ask for something I'm not willing to do. You know me well enough. So what is it I'll be doing for you? And he told me, I'm like, are you kidding? I'd love to do that. That'd be easy. Happy to do it. And so there's an example of somebody who with his skillset, not a big audience, but his skillset poured into me to the point where when he needed something, I'm like, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

Wow, love that. Thank you so much. Back to you, Kate. Yeah, so Ivan, aside from your blog, is there any book that you would recommend for people how to be the best networker that really is awesome? Well, I've written a few and I'll share some of those with you, but there's a couple written by some other people that I really recommend. Susan Rowan has an amazing book on how to work a room. And she's probably one of the few people

People who I think is an absolute expert at networking and would certainly recommend her in any situation.

any presentation on networking. The other is Bob Berg, who wrote the book Endless Referrals. So How to Work a Room by Susan Rowan, Endless Referrals by Bob Berg. Bob is the real deal. Bob is, I mean, he's a giver and he's written the book, The Go-Giver. So he's definitely a giver. He does what he promises and he does it well. So I'd recommend those two books.

As for books on networking, for me, probably Networking Like a Pro, the second edition. I'd recommend the second edition of Networking Like a Pro. I've also written Who's the World's Best Known Marketing Secret, which is a really good book on networking as well. Well, thank you for that. I'm writing it down. Now, how to work a room when it's 500 people? Where do you go first?

So, yeah, go ahead. I'm wondering, do you have a strategy to do that? Like $500 could be very overwhelming. So I'd like to hear. Yeah. So when you walk into a room, and ironically, I think I just posted this. It's a concept that's in my books. But I think, yeah, ironically, I just posted this today on my blog. How you stand changes who you meet. Yeah, I'm just going to plug it real quick. Where do you start?

So just so everyone knows, I'm going to plug just real quick. Sorry. If they go to just so you're talking, they can check it out. Go to Ivan Meisner dot com. I V A N M I S N E R dot com.

Uh, you can check out his blog, the things that he's talking through, check out all his books. Just want to make sure that people can follow along because I know we're going to open up to questions. I know they're going to have a lot of questions. Ivan Meisner. You can look at the top of the room. I V A N M I S N E R Ivan Meisner.com. You can see all these blog posts. It's incredible website with a ton of great information because we all need to be better marketers. I'm sorry, networkers and marketers.

And also you can check out his books and you can of course go to BNI.com for the organization, but Ivan Meisner.com. Sorry to interrupt, but back to you. - Heck, are you kidding? You're talking about my blog. I can interrupt anytime. I've been doing two blogs a week.

since 2007. So I have lots and lots and lots of content up on there. It's all free. Obviously, if you want a book, you go to Amazon, but the blogs are all free. All the content is free. So the article I was talking about was when you walk into a room, where do you start? So

Well, next time you walk into a networking event, there's a lot of people. Observe the room. People who are standing perpendicular to each other, let's say two people facing each other, standing perpendicular, it's hard to break into that conversation.

So just look past that for a few minutes and then look around the room. People who are standing in a triangle, a closed group, a closed triangle, it's hard to break into that. People that are standing in a square, four people standing in a square or in a circle like a huddle, it's hard to break into that. What you want to look for are what I call open twos, open threes, and open groups. An open two looks like the letter V. People are standing askew from each other. It's

It's really easy to slip in there and introduce yourself. Or people standing in an open three, which looks like a U, it's easy to step up and introduce yourself. Or an open group where you have a larger number of people, but there's an open spot. Look for the open groups and slide in. Now, if you are a member,

of a networking group. It's really important that you teach your fellow members to always stand in open twos, open threes, and open groups because it is a subtle but significant technique to make people feel included, to make people feel like it's easy

easy to strike up a conversation with other people. It is a great technique to use. I've tested it and we've seen where people, chapters who use this technique in BNI, people walk away going, I don't know what it is, but it's just so easy to strike up conversations with people in this group. Well, it's done on purpose. So always stand in open twos, open threes and look for them. I remember once I did a, it's so funny, I did a presentation keynote

I talk about this and you can, by the way, you can see I've got on my blog, I think I've got JPEGs in there. Let me just double check. And so everyone go to IvanMeisner.com so you can follow along. And you can see the JPEGs or a JPEG at least and use that as a model of what I'm talking about.

And I remember once I did this presentation, talked about it, and I'm standing with a guy at a networking event. And the two of us are standing. We're doing the exact wrong thing. Perpendicular, looking at each other. And he looks at me and he goes, is it closed too? I'm like, oh, yeah, yeah, we opened it up.

Boom. Immediately, third person comes in. He and I look at each other. The first guy and I close three. We open it up. Boom. Fourth person, fifth person, sixth person, seventh person. The circle got to like eight or ten people before I stepped to another group. But I mean, that's the way it works. Look for people in open stances. It's such a simple technique, but a lot of what I talk about is simple. It's not easy. If it were easy, everyone would do it.

and they forget. And so these techniques are very effective. Hope that answers your question. Wow, that's really awesome. Now, this really happened to me over the weekend or the last few days. How do you recover from saying something stupid because you're nervous? This is what happened to me. I was in a bathroom and I was washing my hand and I asked the lady, I compliment her with, it's really beautiful. It's a real beautiful thing.

tops some beautiful tops like I asked her what she does and she said she handled Beyonce's fund and I don't know how to say after that I think I said something stupid so I don't know how to recover maybe I'm beating myself hard because I said something that oh that must be weird seeing people's reaction when you say that but I don't

Did I say stupid thing? I don't know. Is that what you said? Yeah, that's what I said. I normally don't say things like that, but I guess.

How do you recover from that fall? I feel like it's a big... Yeah, look, first of all, don't beat yourself up. It's not that bad. It's an unusual thing to say. Listen, I've said worse, okay? I've absolutely said worse. So the first thing I would tell people is don't worry about saying something stupid. You will. It's inevitable. We all do. I definitely have. Don't worry about that. What you want to do is recover as quickly as possible and ask a few more meaningful questions.

And there are some that you can use that are really easy. Like, oh, wow, that's a really interesting business. What do you like most about what you do? Well, people love to talk about what they love most. You might want to ask questions like, what's the most challenging thing about what you do? And you said that she handles, was it Beyonce's foundation? Is that what it is? No. No.

Yeah. So, you know, who does Beyonce support? What organizations does she support? I'm really curious. And just get the person to open up. And then you don't have to follow a very specific line of questioning. Remember, it's not an interrogation. It's a discussion. Follow the thread. So if, you know, if she were to say, these are the kinds of things we support,

Then you can say, tell me more about that. That's really interesting. Or I have some experience with organizations like that. You know, this is the experience I've had. Tell me more about your, and just get people to open up and talk. You can recover. That was not, that was not so bad that you couldn't recover from it. Willingly, I've said worse.

probably one of the worst I've never done that but maybe I was in the bathroom I wasn't expecting her response and I was kind of looking who's in the room again I was kind of look at but then like you it was a bad timing but there you go again yeah no no that's incredible the same event interestingly enough there was somebody who is very very very high level individual and

used to be C-suite of a very large organization. After two minutes of talking to them, they turned around and said, enough about me. I want to know more about you. And that person, out of all the 50 people that we met that day, I remember that person. So I love what you're saying around asking questions about the person. And then you gave everyone those two examples, the challenging, what do you love? These are great openers. We're all...

for amateurs when it comes to networking. And I think that's why so many people are here. Just so everybody knows, I pinned to the top of your website, IvanMeisner.com. So they don't have to remember how to spell it. It's right at the top of the screen. All you have to do is just click the top of the screen, goes right to his blog, his website. So just tap literally the link. We pinned it to the top. Really simple. Tap that, go to his website. You can check out his books, his blog, two blogs a week.

for a long time. There's a whole lot of information to read. And we all need to be better at networking, especially since

I know I've done the most networking the last few months I've probably ever done. I think everybody right now is going to conferences, is going to events, and we all need to be better. I wish we had this conversation a week ago, by the way, because I know a few days ago I could have done a much better job at networking. So I appreciate that. But I think we can go. Kate, do you have any more questions or I can open up to audience? Yes, I have one last question. These are great questions, you guys. Oh, thank you. Ivan, how do you want to be remembered?

You know, it's funny, the more gray hair I get, the more often I mess this question. You know, what do I want my legacy to be? And I think your life is your legacy. How you live your life is how you're remembered. There's a, let me give you a variation of a quote by Jean-Paul Sartre that I read in college, and I love this quote. I'll paraphrase him. He said, we all...

die too soon or too late, and yet our life is complete at that moment with a line drawn neatly under it, ready for the summing up. We are our deeds in life and live more. And I think that summarizes

What I think a legacy is, it's not what you want, it's how you lived and how you affected people. In one of my books, Who's in Your Room, I talk a little bit about this and then we can move on to the next question. I talk about the fact that we all have people that are in our story.

That there's somebody, particularly when we're young, that said something that helped change our trajectory. Sometimes the bad, sometimes the good. But they're in our story. To me, we all have people that are in our story. But to me, what's more important than who's in our story is whose story are we in.

Whose life have we changed in some way, helped in some way that we're in their story? And that's a life well lived when you are in people's stories in a positive way. Great question.

Wow. Thank you, Dan. Yeah. Which is exactly why we call this founder story, this segment here, because there's so, I love that point. I mean, there's so many quotable things that you're saying. So I hope you don't mind that. I think a lot of people are going to be quoting Ivan Meisner. So if you quote Dr. Ivan Meisner, please give him credit for that. Maybe give him a hashtag on social media, maybe do, you know, an app right there.

add in Ivan Meisner. You can also click at the top, but it's so incredible what you said. I think there's so much inspiration and power in the story and the impact. And that's what people remember. They remember your story. They don't necessarily remember your accomplishments. So we have Dr. Ivan Meisner, the founder of BNI, the world's largest business networking organization. I keep saying the world and I say planet at the end. I don't know why it sounds like

It's like double the world's largest business networking organization on the planet. Dr. Ivan Meisner here. You can click the top, the link right there. You can check out his blog. He has incredible New York Times and many bestselling books as well.

Also, of course, you can go to BNI.com with this organization. And I remember going to one, I want to say it was maybe 15 years ago. Throughout my life, I've gone to different types of BNI. First in Florida, one in New Mexico, then also in California. And I've met some great, great people that are even, you know, somebody who became a great friend of ours as well. So I want to open it up to questions here. And I want to see who,

Who has a question? Before we do that, somebody did ask real quick. I've never seen this before. When is your birthday? June 30th. Somebody asked. So you might get a present in the mail. I don't know. June 30th. I was born in 1956. So I'm 65 years old.

All right. So June 30th, somebody asked, what is the day of your birthday? So I don't know why, but there you go. You might get, you might get a great, great greeting card. So I'd love to see who, let's go to Dimple first. Dimple, Renee, Michael Butler. Welcome Michael Butler. So Dimple, Renee, Michael Butler, and then we'll keep it going over to you Dimple. Well, that's a great question. You know, we had almost 10,000 chapters when, when,

COVID hit 9,700 groups, all meeting every week, 9,700 weekly meetings in person. So we had to pivot very quickly. Luckily, I've got a CEO who runs BNI who was absolutely visionary on this topic. And he saw that COVID was going to make, you know, have a dramatic impact.

impact in the world. And so we started transitioning Asia in January of 2020 and Europe in February. And we did the rest of the world in March of 2020. The whole world transitioned to online. And so all of our chapters are meeting online for the better part of a year. We still have chapters that are meeting online. We have 700 chapters who started

online and they may continue to be strictly online. What we are suggesting to BNI chapters now is they consider, they look, they can do what they'd like. They can either go back to meeting in person. I, you know, I started the organization meeting in person, so I'm in favor of that. But I also recognize that the world is changing. And so some want to meet in person again, that's fine as long as it's safe.

and you remain safe meeting in person. Some want to just meet online, and that's fine. But what I think we're going to see a substantial movement to, and I'm seeing it now, is a hybrid, where chapters are meeting online, say, three times a month, and meeting in person once a month. I love that concept because it's still...

Has people meeting face-to-face, in person, but the ease of operation online is significant. By the way, I predicted in 2018, I wrote an article at entrepreneur.com that the future of face-to-face was online.

that we were going to be moving to an online platform because of the technology that was developing mixed reality, 3D technology, holographic imaging, that I predicted that within 10 years we were going to be meeting online. I didn't see COVID coming, but the technology is a... I mean, think about this. What if COVID had hit us in 1990 instead of 2020?

we would really, really have problems as a world business. So many more people would have died. So the technology has been a godsend for us worldwide. I hope that answers your question. Wow, incredible. Thank you, Ivan. All right, great question too, Dimple. Appreciate that. So we had, I wrote it down here. We had Renee, Michael Butler, then Diamond Diva,

And then, uh, Bali Paul and Katrina, and then we'll go from there. So Renee, Michael Butler, Diamond Diva, Bali Paul, Katrina over to you, Renee, and great to see you. The interview with Dr. Ivan and Dr. Ivan, I'm just so grateful for your honesty, your humbleness, as well as your heart, you know, for your passionate purpose of being able to share for so many. I think we have a hot, a hot mic. I'm not sure.

but I do hear other people in the background. Just being able to really help others to succeed, especially during this time. You know, I too was in this space of just working online since 2016. So I definitely can, as you said, it's a gift that we're in right now because we've all been able to connect so wonderfully. And I know for sure, thanks to Daniel alongside with Chief, we can continue on listening to your interviews

hours because we hear the sincerity as well as the confidence and also you are a true gift and you continue on giving and that's a great gift that you've been doing. I'll say this too. I've had the pleasure of meeting your friend as well as I would say one of my mentors, Mr. Sir Richard Branson and I am going to post this picture up. I had the pleasure of meeting him and he's another great gift.

give her in this space. I have two questions for you, Dr. Ivan. With a long and triumphant career, what has been your proudest moment that will stay with you? The second question is, I know everything that you do is so important to understand, how do you juggle the fatherhood as well as the entrepreneurship?

still while making time for yourself. And while you're answering, I'll make sure I switch out the picture to show Alfred and salute to Branson. Thank you. Thanks, Renee. What a great set of questions. And first of all, let me just talk about Branson for a second. Amazing man. His ego does not enter the room before he does, which is really incredible.

And I think I have a philosophy about humility. I think that humble people don't think less of themselves. They just think of themselves less. And Branson is, I think, a classic example of that. I watched him. I mean, I've been to Necker now four times. And I've met him three or four times elsewhere. And for those who don't know, Necker Island is his private island. And I watched him talk to staff.

And he talks to staff the same way he talks to a millionaire. He gives his staff the same respect that he gives millionaires that may be on the island. And there's a lot to be said for somebody who's a billionaire who treats people that way. And yeah, amazing person. Okay, so your two questions are, the second one was really, I think, about balance. And the first one is my proudest moment.

My proudest moment I'm writing about right now, it will be in a book that comes out maybe late next year, 2022, possible it'd be early 2023. The book, the working title on it is The Third Paradigm. And it's about co-creation, about how business has gone from competition, the first paradigm, to cooperation, the second paradigm, to co-creation, the third paradigm. Things like crowdsourcing.

And that's what the book is about. And I tell a story in there about really my proudest moment. It's too long to tell here, but I'll give you a really, really Reader's Digest version, which is it was one particular day at a BNI convention that I knew would be either

the best day of my professional career or the worst day of my professional career. And it was because I had released an online platform that was a total and complete disaster. And what I had to do was fall in the sword, beg for forgiveness, and more importantly, then move the organization in the direction that it needed to go.

Which means that, you know, I had to make it right. And so getting to the point where people would go from wanting to draw and quarter me publicly at the meeting to having them go, yeah, we can do this, was probably my proudest moment in business. And I tell the whole story in the book. It's called The Third Paradigm. It's not out yet, but you might find that interesting when it does come out.

Let's talk about balance. You can get this material right out of a book I wrote called Who's in Your Room, which is about the people that you surround yourself with. And so I'm going to give you the secret to balance. Would you guys, Daniel, Kate, would you like, you think they'd like to hear the secret to balance? Absolutely. All right. Here's the secret to balance. Forget about balance. You'll never have it. Yeah.

When I tell people that, they'll either chuckle or you'll hear, especially in a public audience, you'll hear people groan like, oh man, I thought I was going to get something good. I hope you get something good because I think balance is impossible. And you said it in your question, juggling balance.

all these different things. You used the term juggling. I think life is more of a juggling act than a balancing act because we think of balance as scales and that our personal life has to be in balance with our business life, which has to be in balance with our spirituality and our health, and it's all got to be in balance. And that just isn't realistic. Life is more of a juggling act than a balancing act. And although I don't think you can have a life of balance, I strongly believe you can have a life of harmony.

And harmony is different than balance. This is not just semantics. Even the graphic for harmony, the yin and the yang are out of balance if you separate them. It's the whole coming together that creates a life of harmony. And I have lived a life that is probably not very balanced. I mean, I have 2.3 million miles on one airline alone.

I traveled immensely. It's hard to raise a family, have a marriage of 31 years and a successful business. And so I tried to create a life of harmony. And I'll give you two or three things. This is right out of the book, who's in your room. The first is a technique. It's about be here now. Simple concept. A lot of what I talk about is simple, just not easy. Be here now. Wherever you are, be there. Don't be at home alone.

thinking about that project that's got to get done at work. Don't be at work thinking about the fact that you didn't spend time with the family last night. Wherever you are,

Be fully present. Now, nobody's perfect at this. I wasn't. But I got pretty darn good at being present wherever I was. And the more you can practice that philosophy of be here now, the more you're going to have a life of harmony. Here's one more. There's like six or seven different techniques to create harmony. But one more is you have to have a life with margins.

You have to have space for yourself, just like in the margins of a book. You have to have space for yourself. You know, if that involves meditation, if that involves, you know, for me, I do meditate, but for me, it's like going out on my boat on the lake or, you know, I have a telescope looking at the planets in the telescope or...

Okay, don't tell anybody. Watching TV. I watch TV. You know, I watch, there are programs I like. And that's one of the ways, that's a margin for me. I have, since I was a young man, taken almost always one day a week, unless I'm traveling, one day a week that is my mental health day.

I don't go anywhere. I don't do anything outside of my house other than hang with the family if they're here or, you know, maybe go out on my boat or go in the hot tub, you know. Other than that, it's my day. And I recharge my batteries. And so I talk about this in Who's in Your Broom? I don't believe balance is possible, but I believe harmony is. I hope that answers your question. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Thank you, Renee. Thank you. I appreciate it. And you're right. You didn't say balance. I threw that in there when you used the term juggling. And I hope that again, I hope that answers your question. It's a great question.

Awesome. Thank you so much, Ivan. Thank you, Renee. Always great seeing you as well. So founder of BNI, Ivan Meisner. Ivan, how much more time do you have? Oh, I've got at least a half an hour. I'm speaking by Zoom to China in an hour. So I've got a hard stop in an hour for sure. All right. So we'll just make sure.

I have Diamond Diva, Michael Butler, Katrina, Bally Paul. Sorry if I screwed up the order, but Diamond Diva, Michael Butler, Katrina, Bally Paul will go in that order. So please, if you could just get quickly to the question so everyone can answer. Diamond Diva always asks very, very insightful questions. So get ready because this is going to be a good one. I know that. I'm sitting down.

There you go. Don't fall out of your chair. I just want to make sure that everyone checks out. Just click the link at the top, Dr. Ivan Meisner. You can go to IvanMeisner.com. All you have to do is tap the link at the top so you can learn more about him. But Diamond, over to you. Diamond, thank you so much for your help.

I'm going to club today. I'm a DVR. So great to see you, Dr. Ivan Meisner. Again, here is people's face. And as always, I'm learning new things every time I share. And my question is in regard to something that you shared in your book, who's in your realm. And so we think about the people that we serve.

ground ourselves with. The network, if you will, it really is important that we have the right people because guess what? They're dropping those gems and those seeds that grow in our subconscious mind and really impact how we view ourselves, the world, our mindset. And we truly are the average, like Jim Rohn said, the five percent, we're 100 percent

with and with that in mind what advice would you advise for people to be able to start are these the right people in my network and what would you do about that found out this is diamond and i'm complete so that's a great question um and i do talk about this in who's in your room um

So let me give you the concept of who's in your room and then I'll answer your question directly. The concept is imagine you live your life in one room and that that one room has only one door and that one door is an enter only door so that when people come into your room or into your life, they're there forever. You can't get them out. Now, many people say to me, well, that's a metaphor. You know, I've gotten people out of my life.

And so what I'd like all of you to do, Diamond, what I'd like you to do, everyone who's listening, Daniel, Kate, everyone, I want you to think of somebody that you got out of your life. And I want you to think about why you wanted them out of your life. And I want you to think about what they did to make you want them out of your life. Now, you guys, you don't have to say who it is, but do you have someone in mind?

Yes, I do. It's normally when someone's clashing my value when it comes to integrity. I can't be around that person. So I want you to think about something they did that made you want them out of your life and then you get them out of your life. So here's the deal. If they're still in your head, they're still in your room.

And they'll be there for the rest of your life. Because every decision you make in the future will be in part, anything that relates to what they did, will be in part because of your experience with that person. And so it is more than a metaphor. You know, people's, one of the people we interviewed was Dr. Daniel Amen for the book. And he said, people's fingerprints are all over your brain. When you have a relationship with them, personal or professional, their fingerprints are all over your brain for the rest of your life.

And so it's very important to be selective about the people that you let into your room. And you, name it, Kate, it's about values. You've got to get good with your values. You have to know what your values are. And in the book, we have a simple values instrument that you can use to kind of figure out what your values are. And there's a lot of stuff online to figure out what your values are. And what you want to look for are people who have values that are resonant with yours. They don't have to be the same values. As a matter of fact,

In so many ways, diversity is good. And this is one of them. You want people to have values, but values that are not dissonant with yours, incongruent with yours. And so you screen people based on their values and how their values interact with your values. Part of the question was, what do you do with people who you finally want out of your life or your room?

There's a couple of techniques in the book that we do. There's several, but two that I'll share here today. One is homeopathic doses and the other is benign neglect. Benign neglect is like, you know, we went to college with people that were friends, high school friends, people that we really liked.

And through benign neglect, the relationship dissipated. And we liked them and that happened. Now, imagine if you did it with a plan. Imagine if you have a plan for people that are problematic that are in your life and you use benign neglect as a way of pulling yourself away from them being active in your life. The other is homeopathic doses where you

When you have to interact with them, you interact with them in small doses. Let's say you're going to go to a city where you've got this person that you maybe never really, they're no longer a good fit in your life. And you know that if you show up there, it's going to be on Facebook and they're going to get mad that you didn't let them know. Let them know the day before. Hey, I'm going to be in town tomorrow. I'd love to get together for a cup of coffee between 12 and 1.

And chances are pretty good that they may not even see the email that you've sent. And it's like, oh, I'm sorry I missed you. And if they do, then you've created parameters around the amount of time that you have to spend with them. And so homeopathic doses, benign neglect. And one last thought. Someone might be in your life like family members. They might be in your life, but their baggage has to stay out.

This story is not in the book, but it will be in the second edition that we're working on. And then I'll take another question. I had someone who told me that she had someone, a family member who would come to family dinners and they'd have these big family dinners. And at every family dinner, she said this relative would throw in a verbal hand grenade into the room.

And people would get upset and there'd be arguments and fighting and crying. And she just kept doing it. And so the family got together without her and said, how are we going to deal with this? And she actually talked about my book and different techniques. And they decided, I love this. They decided that the next time she did it, that everyone would look at her and say, oh,

Hmm. Interesting. Okay. And then turn back to their conversation. Ignore it. No matter how hostile the statement or, you know, the grenade was, just ignore it. And you know what happened? That woman stopped coming to most of the dinners. She was getting something out of winding people up. And when she could no longer wind people up, um,

It wasn't fun for her anymore. And so she went to very, very few dinners. And when she did and she's throwing a grenade, everyone was like, oh, interesting. Okay. And just ignored it. Very effective technique. You may be in my life, but your baggage has to stay. Wow. What a timely advice before Thanksgiving. Yeah. Love that. Thank you. Thank you, Ivan. Great question, Diamond, as well. Appreciate that. We're going to go to Michael Butler here in a second. Diamond, were you going to jump back in?

This is Thomas. I actually purchased that book. And I'm using the techniques that you shared with some of my friends because like you said, sometimes it's a family member. Sometimes it's not someone that you can easily walk away from. And it's important to develop those coping mechanisms so you can protect your mindset and still have a productive life. So thank you so much for your share. I complete. Thank you.

The diet yeah diamond reads a lot of books and it's always every person that we have as a guest She's read the book and always inspires me because she has a great question I think that's you had mentioned before she always has a great question from a book. She's read about a great host So thank you diamond for sharing. I was she always talking about tapping the house with it takes over a million our biz We've done some incredible guests

and we're so happy that I was here. So make sure you follow the club. You can see all the stuff that's coming. Tomorrow is actually International Women's Entrepreneurship Day. So...

So we're going to have a celebration there and that's going to be fantastic. Um, tap the top here. Dr. I've measured.com. Just tap the top. It's really simple. All I get to do is tap. It goes right there. You see his blogs, his websites, and make sure you're following all these incredible people on stage. I have not said that, but follow everyone up here. They're just amazing. And we're so happy that they're here. And we also have, uh, a, um,

sorry i forgot what i was gonna say i blanked out see i was looking at who i have to call on next you can't do two things at one time but tap the top go to ivan miser's website follow everybody go to social i would even say take a screenshot and tag ivan meisner i bet he'd be pretty happy share a quote and put a hashtag in there i'd love to see that trending how cool would that be um

And then we have Michael Butler was up next and just make sure we have about 15 minutes left. So we'll make sure we can get in. We got Michael Butler, Katrina, Bali, Paul, then, then Phil. So Michael Butler over to you. Yeah. Before you go, Michael Butler, if we can be mindful to go straight to the question, that way we can intern as many as we can. Thank you. Absolutely. Absolutely. Hey, great room tonight. Thank you, Dr. Ivan for being here. I've been a fan and a follower for a long time. Yeah.

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So it's a great question. Let me give you a technique that I talk about in a couple of my books, including Networking Like a Pro, the second edition. It's called the 24-7-30 follow-up system. 24-7-30.

Within 24 hours, reach out to somebody that you meet, either through a Zoom networking event or in-person networking event. Reach out to them. Send them an email or do something really crazy like send them a card or something through the mail. I love send-out cards. I'm a client. I don't sell send-out cards, but I love send-out cards. It's a great organization where you can send a card by going online, but it sends it through the mail. Nobody gets stuff through the mail anymore.

So within 24 hours, send them a note saying, hey, it was great meeting you. I enjoyed our conversation on whatever. And I hope our paths cross again. That's it. Don't sell to them. Within seven days, connect with them on social media. So when you're talking to them, find out what social media platforms do they use. Do they use Clubhouse? Do they use Facebook, LinkedIn, Twitter? Where are they? Instagram.

Find out what their favorite one is. And that's what's important is find out what their favorite one is. And I learned this really from my kids because my eldest daughter, when she was 17, you know, I would call her and she wouldn't answer. But if I texted her, boom, she'd answer immediately. And then I remember saying to her, honey, you know, this is a phone that you have. You can actually talk into it. She said to me, dad, you're not only not with it, you're not even near it.

Like, okay, well, you still have to be home at 10 o'clock. So then my next daughter was, if I called her, nothing. If I texted her, nothing. For her, it was WhatsApp. I had to WhatsApp her.

And then my son, he didn't like WhatsApp and text, phone. He was a gamer. He is a gamer. And so I knew that Steam had an instant messaging platform on their games. So I was in my 50s. I downloaded Steam. I bought a game so that I could instant message my son and he would respond immediately. I tell you that because you want to go where they are.

Not where you like to hang out, but where they like to hang out. If you want to really network with this person, that's what you got to do. You go where they are, not where you necessarily are. And so find out what social media platform they like the most and go there. Now, I'm on all of them, but I probably am a little more active personally on Facebook than the others, my public Facebook page.

So find out where they are, go there within seven days and make comments, you know, interact, don't sell to them. Then within 30 days, reach out to them and ask to do a one-to-one where you can learn more about them, find out about what they do. Hopefully they're willing to meet with you and tell you what they do and hear what you do. And again, don't sell to them.

Don't sell to them. It's about building the relationship, not closing a sale. Look, even a blind squirrel can find a nut. You'll fall over business. It'll happen from time to time. But what you want to do is build relationships with people. And so 24, 7, 30 follow-up system. It's about building a relationship with people. Great question. Incredible. Thank you, Michael Butler.

Awesome. This is the master of publishing and networking as well. Michael Butler there. Thank you, Ivan Meisner. Click the top. You can follow along. We have about 12 minutes left. So check out his website. Up next, we have Bolly Paul, then Katrina, then Phil. We'll see what we can get through. So Bolly Paul over to you, then Katrina. Make sure we are getting straight to the question. Thank you so much. The problem is I'm taking too long with the answers.

No, no, you are good. Yeah. In case I did this research, my question is, does this remember Charlie Lawson when he was preaching the group, Give Us Again, and the history of it? And it was inspiring. And what struck me was that you created that philosophy in the mid-to-late 80s

When the whole of the sales world and the financial world, everyone was taking, you know, greed was good and the movies and all the stocks and the Wall Street and all that were in the heavy data. Everything was amazing. Sales was extremely flashy, I believe, in terms of closing the deal and all that measure. And what you did was you went the other way. And instead of taking, you told people to give. Where did you get that?

inspiration from because that was a message. Well, I didn't like the networks that I was going to where everyone was trying to sell to me and I just felt like I was being slimed and had to go home and get a shower. And so I realized that the best way to get referrals was to help people. And this philosophy of giver's gain is kind of the evolution of that. Your network, in my opinion, your network is a beacon of hope.

in a sea of fear. The world's a crazy place. When you have people around you that are there to help you and support you, magic happens. And to me, giver's gain is more than a phrase. It's a way of living one's life. It's a perspective to view and interact with the world. It's an attitude, not an expectation. And when it's applied properly, it'll change your life. And when it changes enough lives, it'll change the world.

I really believe in the philosophy of givers gain and I have seen it work particularly over the last two years more than ever before. Hope that answers your question. Thank you. Incredible. Yeah. Thank you, Bully Paul. Thank you, Ivan. Katrina, you are up next. We have about five minutes left. So Katrina, over to you.

creating an online BNI where it doesn't have to be chapter specific to a location. So for instance, like

I've been able to, because of the Zoom now, I've been able to go to other chapters in different parts of the world. And we've been able to network because our businesses are online also. So do you see like a different type of BNI additionally being created for just online businesses that don't need to be brick and mortar or in the area close to other business owners to just have this? I hope that makes sense.

And the answer is, is it within the realm of possibility? Yes. But it's a little more challenging for a couple of reasons, some of which you might not be aware of. But one of the things that we really believe in is the power of meeting in person. And so if it's not geographically based, it's going to be very difficult to meet in person. And maybe that'll change someday with, like I said, with the holographic images.

But BNI is locally owned and operated. And because it's locally owned and operated, there are

There's an aspect of the business that people who join a group that is just global, that the company then would, in effect, be competing with its own local owners. And so we have to get past that issue. And there are ideas to get past that issue that will make it viable. I think it's inevitable that BNI is going to be a platform, a platform that is both online and in-person.

And it's hard to predict when that transition of mostly online is going to take place permanently. But I think it's inevitable. As I said in that article on Entrepreneur, that it's inevitable that technology is going to change things. We're going to be disrupted. And I want BNI to lead the disruption, not be disrupted. A lot of people don't know, but Kodak invented the digital camera.

They invented the digital camera and they licensed it out to other companies. How'd that work out for them? You know, there was an executive with Kodak who said, you know, who's going to, besides who's going to, they didn't want to, they didn't want to compete with their film processing business. And one of the executives said, besides who's going to look at photographs on a computer?

Nobody wants to look at it. They were not thinking ahead. So we're trying to think ahead. We are taking that into consideration, but it's a little more complex than people might recognize at a glance. I hope that answers your question. It was a good question.

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