Ep 454: Swedish Death Cleaning 101
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hey everyone i'm jean chatzky thank you so much for joining me today on her money i hope that you are enjoying the holidays the holiday season so far that you've had a little bit of time at least to put your feet up maybe to relax i always like to set aside some time between christmas and new year's to just

tidy things up in my house. This year though, I'm thinking about taking it to another level. I'm thinking, haven't quite decided, but I'm thinking about Swedish death cleaning. Now it is not as morbid as it might sound and no,

I am not planning on dying anytime soon. It's actually this practical method that involves getting rid of things that you don't need anymore to make sure that your family has less stuff to deal with after you're gone. As the title suggests, this method was well popularized in Sweden.

It involves a step that many Swedes take after they turn 60. They sell or they give away many of their possessions to people who are younger than they are. And as many of you know, my mom recently passed away. My brothers and I were tasked with going through her apartment, which was

It was a thing. It was a job. It was wonderful and terrible all at the same time. But I gotta say, I emerged not exactly knowing what did she want me to keep? What did she want me to hold on to? What did she want me to pass along to other people? I think I know everything.

or at least knew what things meant the most to her, but it was a lot. And my husband and I, in talking about it, have said, we don't want to necessarily do that to our kids. We don't want them to...

To have to go through boxes and boxes of stuff and ask questions about who's who in photographs or whether this is important or whether it's valuable or whether it meant something. We want to do that in advance for them.

Which is why today I am so thrilled to be joined by psychologist and Swedish death cleaning expert Katarina Blom. Now she was recently a cast member on the television show The Gentle Art of Swedish Death Cleaning. It was on Peacock this summer.

And we're going to dig into the psychology behind why we have such a hard time getting rid of stuff and some practical tips for those of us who are thinking about doing a little Swedish death cleaning of our own in the new year. Katarina, nice to see you. Nice to meet you. Welcome to the show.

Thank you so much. I'm so happy to be here talking about this favorite subject of mine. As I just mentioned, you were the psychologist on Amy Poehler's show, The Gentle Art of Swedish Death Cleaning. Can you tell me a little bit about Swedish death cleaning in general and the book that inspired the show?

Yeah, sure. So it was actually, I think she was 82, a wonderful woman called Margareta Magnusson, that at this respectable age debutante with this book called The Gentle Art of Swedish Debt Cleaning. And the book became an international bestseller and it reached the desk of some TV producers in Los Angeles.

And eventually it became this TV show that's now been airing on Peacock, as you mentioned. So death cleaning is actually...

just a very old tradition in Sweden. So my mom death cleaned with her mom and I've been doing death cleaning with my parents. It's just something that you do. And it's even so well established that not every Swede have heard like the term because it's just so ingrained in our culture. It's just something you do in your everyday life.

So if you do it in your everyday life, it's not a once in a while thing. It's kind of an ongoing process. How does it work exactly?

Yeah, so it might sound a bit morbid, like you said in the beginning, but it's really a life affirming process. In the show, we often said that death cleaning is for life because it's something that you do your whole life. But it's also something that is aiming at creating more space for what you want to invite in your life.

So it's really about acknowledging that we don't know what day we will die. So we might as well just keep our things in order throughout life. Because we don't want to leave our life with these loose ends, just like anyone would hate.

dying while having a conflict with someone. So just as you want to clear your relationship so they are working and supporting you, you also want to have a home that's not filled with these loose ends like you were just describing with your mother. That sometimes you don't even know what was it that she really valued, what was important to her that we take extra care of and that we can pass on some of these stories to the next generation.

So just inviting this conversation into the everyday of our lives about the fact that time is passing, everything is in constant change, and it's good to keep fresh relationship to death and let it be mirrored in our own homes.

A fresh relationship to death sounds interesting. It sounds kind of daunting. I know that one of your missions as a psychologist is to help individuals come to terms with their own mortality. That's not something that we are particularly good at in America. When you look at the statistics, a huge number of adults in this country don't have wills

A shameful number of parents have never named guardians for their minor children. We don't want to talk about it. We don't want to think about it. How do you get to that point where you have a better relationship with the fact that one day we are all going to die? I really think if we could allow ourselves to see that we are actually dying a little bit every day.

We are, like we are dying a little bit in every moment, by every breath. And that could feel so depressing. But I think what I really want to kind of convey or like invigorate with people is that acknowledging that paves the way for so much life and so much, let's seize the moment, all of those Carpe Diem quotes on walls and stuff.

If we can really live closely with the fact that we are dying, we are mortal beings, we also live very closely with the fact that, but today I am alive. So what do I want to do with that life? So I do think that there's so many ways that we can start cultivating that fresh relationship with death.

One way is, of course, this more philosophical way that I was just talking about. But we can also do it in a practical way. And this is where I think death cleaning is really helpful. So just looking at your things, thinking about what is really important to me. And when I look at this room through the lens of death that creates this sharpness, this almost black and white context, what really stands out?

When you say you look through the lens of death, what's the difference between looking through the lens of death and looking through a regular lens? How are you trying to see things? Yeah, okay. So, you know, there are so many methods for keeping tidy, keeping things in order, like doing a cleanse. I think the unique thing about Swedish death cleaning is that we actually look at our items through the lens of death.

So it's really not about going like: "Okay, so have I used this lately or not?" "Do I like this? I don't know." It's not on that level. It's really taking one more step back and looking at: "Okay,

What really serves a purpose in my home? What supports me to be me? What supports my lifestyle? And what would I like people to remember me by? If I would die today, am I happy about what I'm living in my home? Is this how I would like to be remembered? And how easy is it for others to see and find and understand what are the important items in my house? And you asked me earlier about life.

like parents and how might I start this conversation? Because I do think that this topic is both philosophical, it's psychological, it's social, and it's practical. And I really think this method is aiming at helping us living our life to the fullest by inviting death.

So I think having a conversation with your parents where you might ask, you could just say like, oh, you have so many lovely things. Have you made a plan for what you would like to happen with them once you die? And some people might be, or some parents might be like shocked and like, why don't you talk about this? But I think if we give it time and keep asking this question every now and then, I think they will probably open up.

And I'm pretty sure that some parents will have the opposite reaction, that they feel relieved that their child or their friend is bringing the subject up. Because maybe they have had this worry. Maybe they had been thinking about how can I bring this up? And I do want to make a plan for my things and I don't want to burden my kids. But how do we even talk about this? So I think it's really worth to go there.

And I don't really think we can break something by just asking this question. But we should also be kind of prepared that it's very different where people are in their relationship with their own mortality. I think this is where the gentle part comes in.

that we want to be gentle and we want to be gradual. So doing death cleaning, it's not something you do like, okay, this weekend, let's do it and then we're done. It's really gradual. It's really like a way of life to be mindful about what you bring into your home and to be mindful about where would I like this thing to have a new chapter in its life regarding items in your home.

We are in the middle of the holiday shopping season here in America, the time of year where we...

add things to our lives and our closets and our homes with more abandon than others. How does consumption relate to all of this? I mean, Americans are notoriously, I think, materialistic. We tend to be over consumers. If we find a sweater that fits in one color, we want it in four colors. How does this get us in trouble? I do think...

The sharpest connection between overconsumption and materialism and fear of death, I think, goes through our tendency to avoid pain and discomfort. So as humans, we are hardwired to avoid pain and discomfort at all costs and increase, like, pleasantries and nice moments and feelings, of course.

And we have so many great strategies, avoidance strategies, like shopping or gambling or drinking or overeating. There's so many ways that we can run away from ourselves and what we're actually experiencing.

And of course, we do shop and of course, we consume without it necessarily being an avoidance strategy. But I think if you become honest with yourself, I think we all know when this is actually something that serves a good purpose and when it's this empty calories kind of thing. So I do think that the strongest connection point is just avoidance of pain and discomfort.

So materialism and overconsumption is probably just one of many ways that we can kind of run ahead of ourselves. So we don't have to deal with our own pain. And like the ultimate pain is losing life. I understand. Like it's very understandable and it's very human, but it's not always helpful. And this is why it's good to be kind of honest with yourself about these things.

When you work with your patients, how do you get them to face these things honestly? What are the strategies or the tactics that you use or the questions that you ask to get them to the point where they acknowledge what's going on so that they can make a change? I love that. I think one thing that stood out to me when we were filming the show was that everyone we met

were facing some kind of challenge, some kind of pain was showing up in their life. For me, I felt like I basically sat down with them and just had a warm, heartfelt conversation where I was curious and present and really leaned in and like, I really want to understand what's going on and how are you feeling about this? Okay, and what happens when you feel that way? Like we were just exploring, just like,

walking around in this subject with like soft paws from a kitten. Okay, what's happening over here? And how do you feel about this here? And what's your thoughts in that moment? And I feel like the thing that most people said to me was like, oh, no one really asks me these kinds of questions in my life. And it felt like they were mostly kind of almost relieved that finally I can share this with someone.

And I do think that this conversation can be both powerful, but they don't have to be dramatic.

You can approach these things in a gradual way so that the person still feels a level of safety while exploring. And I do have a lot of respect that some challenges that we all have or some types of pain that show up in our own lives, they are too big for us to approach on our own.

We're not built to go through hardship alone. We're built to do that together with other people. So if I could show up and be that kind of just supporting force next to them, while just asking kind of easy, curious questions, I think that goes such a long way. And I think the biggest betrayal is actually just going quiet.

Because if everyone is hesitating and don't know what to say, and as a default, we go quiet, it creates this isolation around this person who is really in need of warmth and support and connection. Yeah, I often feel like it's better to just kind of knock and be open with like, I don't really know what to say. I just see your pain. I see this horrible thing that happened to you.

And I just want to be there for you, but I almost don't know how. But I just want you to know that I am here. Also, like I've read kind of recently about some studies in the US that you are struggling with this epidemic of loneliness. Yes. And I think it really ties in with these topics that we're discussing around pain and hardship and death.

How can we support each other and show up for each other when we're in those rough places in life?

And I think death cleaning is really an entryway in, into maybe start to talk about more practical things. Okay, what's happening with this cup? And by that, or like through the item, we get to access the emotional side of things. Very much like we do in the show, actually. Just asking about if this cup could tell a story, what story would it tell? I really want to know. It can start...

This journey where you're kind of time traveling through objects and maybe accessing pain that this person haven't been able to share. And I really want to emphasize like it doesn't take a lot. I think we're all very capable of showing up to each other and being that warm, present person. I think it's just like a societal norm, maybe that we feel a bit insecure. And it's really like, I don't want to hurt you in any way. So I better just step back.

where I really want to push everyone like, no, let's lean in and just not. Let's lean in. Let's lean forward. I will always remember when I was in my late 20s, I had my first child. He was born with a congenital heart defect and

it was a lot. He's great. He's 30 years old. He's healthy. He's really good. But it was a very difficult time. And I will remember that this 22 year old editorial assistant or young reporter in my office clearly did not know what to say, but wanted to say something. And she said, I am so sorry that this is happening in your life.

And those of all the words, right? It's been 30 years. Those are the words that I remember, right? I got a lot of, well, God doesn't give you more than you can handle. And I wanted to smack those people. But this 22-year-old was...

was afraid she was going to say the wrong thing, ended up saying the perfect thing. And I think that's sort of your point. Like we want to, we just want to show up for people. Katarina, we're going to get really tactical. We're going to get into the nitty gritty, but before we do that, we're going to take a very quick break.

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We are talking with Katarina Blom, grief psychologist, and the practical steps involved in the gentle art of Swedish death cleaning. All right. I know one of the first steps that you lay out is finding a purpose for your home, not your stuff, but for your home. Can you talk about why this is one of the first steps and why it's so important?

Of course. So I think I'm going to lend some words now from Ella, who is also on the show. She says that if we have a home that's filled with clutter, it's like we're walking around with this silent to-do list. Like, oh, I should mend that thing. Or, oh, I have to sort that pile. And it's really hard to be able to relax and feel like you own your own home, kind of.

So I think we all deserve to have a home where we can feel at ease, that we can feel complete relaxation and where we can feel safe, that we don't have these high demands on ourselves that get triggered as soon as we see like a pile of

stuff like oh you should do this and you should do better and why have you gotten all into this mess so I think of course a house and a home can have different purposes for different people like it can be I think commonly a place to relax and feel safe but it can also be a place where you want to be social and want to be able to invite

your friends and relatives if that's really important or maybe you want to live very minimalistic and you just want to travel so you need to have a really clean and like practical home or maybe you have this extra income as an airbnb pad for people so i really think it's good to understand what do i need from my home how can my home support me right now

Just in my own life, I've been living as a student in like really small tiny apartments for very temporary times. I've had kids, I've had the baby face, I've now slightly bigger kids. And it's like your whole needs to mirror these different life stages in your life. What's the purpose of my life right now for these coming three to five years maybe?

And then we outgrow that face and maybe we outgrow that purpose. And then we need a home that can reflect this growth and this change. And whenever there's change, there is the fact that we're gaining something, but we're also losing something. And this should be reflected in your items. Once you've got your purpose, is there a blueprint? Is there a series of steps that you would have people follow to change

go through this process of death cleaning over time. Again, I agree with you. This is not something that you accomplish in a weekend. How do we start and how do we pace it out? Okay, so one thing I've noticed as a common pattern is that most people feel kind of overwhelmed by the thought of just getting started. And it's like, where should I begin? And there's so much and I will never get to the finishing line.

And I really think it's good to pace yourself and really start small. So you will probably notice that when you start sorting a drawer or...

a cabinet in your kitchen. It's this like release of energy where you feel kind of uplifted and, whoa, okay, this actually went well and look at my beautiful cabin. Now there's even more space and I feel more calm and like I feel so proud of myself. And you want to build on that wave to go to the next cabinet or the next room or like slowly, slowly go through your whole house. But it's all about like harnessing that wave of energy, that energy release energy

That happens when you kind of sort your things. And I think a good way to lure yourself in, that we also do in the show, is by starting with a really messy room maybe. If you know that you have one, maybe, I don't know, the basement or the attic or that kind of room. Because there we often have a lot of obvious trash things.

And it's always good to start with the obvious trash because it's like an easy win. It's not very demanding for our thought processes around decision making because it's very close to trash. And you get this sense of accomplishment kind of easily, like I can throw this away and this and this and this. Things that are broken that you know you can't mend, things that obviously no one else would like to have, things with stains and like holes, those kind of things.

that you can kind of gather. So that would be an easy first. And next, I would suggest like we do in the show that you have like a big table that could be your sorting station.

where you put the things that you want to go through and sort. And then you have three stations under with maybe just moving boxes or something. Where one thing is things that are supposed to leave the house, maybe like to other relatives, to friends or to charity. Then you have obvious trash

And then you might have things that you want to upcycle, things that you want to give to the tailor or things that you want to mend yourself, like projects that you want to build to make it better. And how long does the process typically go for? I mean, for me, it's kind of an ongoing thing, right? So I have a, I keep a bag in my clothes closet and

things that when I decide they're done, or at least they're done for me, I have a place to put them. And this is the bag that's going to the church, or it's the bag that's going to Goodwill, or, you know, I have other things that I'm going to consign. But I always have a place for when I decide I've had enough of this thing or

it's had enough of me. Yeah. So for me, it's kind of this ongoing, never ending process. But I don't know if that's a good idea or a bad idea. No, I think it's brilliant. I think it's really good. And I love that you have this dedicated spot in your wardrobe that it immediately just goes in there because it lowers the threshold for us to take action and actually bring it out of the house to a place where it can serve a better purpose. And

So I love it. And I do think that this is always an ongoing process. We are never done with this. Some people listening will...

know people in their lives for whom stuff has just gotten excessive. Maybe they're hoarders, maybe they border on being hoarders. How do you know when this is a problem that can't be solved by death cleaning and you really need to get some professional help? Yeah, sure. So this is actually not a fine line. Some people, I know I've got that question from journalists

Like, how do you know? Is it just a fine line? And it's not. I would say that if you are hoarding, this is a strategy to keep your anxiety in check, to keep your catastrophic thinking in check.

So this is driven by high levels of discomfort and anxiety. Some people have that as long as I collect all the newspapers from this year, nothing bad will happen to my aunt.

And look, she's still well and alive. That's so important that I keep gathering these new papers then. So there's really a clear sign of suffering involved whenever we talk about hoarding. It's not something that you do, oh, this feels kind of nice and like,

It's not like a lazy thing to do. It actually requires a lot of effort to hoard all those things. And it's very rigid as well. It's not like on a Sunday, I decide not to collect these newspapers. No, you're going to do that every day. It's very rigid and very...

rule based so it's not a fine line so if you are if you're feeling like your home is becoming dysfunctional and if you feel like you are suffering you want to stop this but you just don't know how I think it's well enough to go to I don't know the medical system in the US but in Sweden you just go to a hospital and talk to your doctor about this and he will send you to a psychologist and

So I do think it's a good idea to look for help sooner rather than later, because everything we do just gets more ingrained in our neurological patterns. So it's easier to break these things the sooner we kind of get to it. Last question, Katarina. If you are thinking this is something you'd like to embark on, but maybe you could use a little help,

When Marie Kondo took this country by storm, all of a sudden there were a whole army of Marie Kondo people who knew how to bring her methods to the homes of people across the country. Are there now Swedish death cleaners throughout America that if I Googled, I could find one in my local area?

Actually, I do think there is. I've just seen people reaching out to me on Instagram telling me that I'm working as a home organizer and I love the Swedish death cleaning method. So I definitely think that Google can help you if you live in the US. Thank you so, so much for this. I enjoyed this conversation and really enjoyed talking to you. I hope that you'll come back again soon.

Thank you. I had a lovely time. Thank you very much. Absolutely. We'll be right back. It's the end of the year, which also means it's a perfect time for a financial checkup, sitting down to review your investments, maximize retirement contributions, and protect your personal data. This last step is crucial because your information is likely floating around on countless

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So, Kelly, I know that you know that we've been doing a lot of clearing out. I've been talking about it of my mother's apartment, which we actually sold and closed on. So everything is gone, found a new place. Cleaned out? A little, a little, a little. And so I woke up in the middle of the night because Jake sent me

a text over the weekend. My son Jake is newly married and he and his wife were looking at old family movies which had been digitized of her grandparents. And Jake wrote, do we have anything like that? And my mom had gone through and put a whole bunch of stuff on a thumb drive for me and my brother's

But I woke up in a panic that I didn't have it and that I had deleted it and that I had gotten rid of all the source material, which makes me think that although this Swedish death cleaning is really good, you should not go too fast. Yes. Yes. And have you confirmed your suspicions or are we still in the discovery phase? So we have it, but Elliot can't get the sound to work. Okay.

So I'm hoping that my brothers can get the sound to work. I hope so. And there are professionals who do this on the regular too. But yes to slowing down. Also, if we're talking Swedish death cleaning, I have to give a shout out to my parents who started doing it before I think it was

As popular or as covered as it is now, my parents have been doing it for years. Wow, you are a lucky child. I'm also an only child. And I'll just say my parents are very comfortable talking about estate planning. We might be an outlier, but I would say safely that

I receive a text message almost every week asking me if I want X, Y, or Z. Wow. Every week. It's like a sport for them. And I will say, too, and I absolutely appreciate it, do I want to focus on the implications of this?

Every week or too much? Not so much. No, no, I don't. But I know it's them showing love in a way that also makes them feel more comfortable. And oddly, I think brings my mother so much joy. Yeah. So there you go. It's definitely top of mind in the Hultgren household. And they're influencing me too. It's not so much Swedish death cleaning. It's just being mindful of

Only having what you need or only having what is significant value to you or brings you joy. It's just a good practice to have. I don't know if you're going to remember this, but your description of your mom treating it like a sport made me think about when we were moving from New York to Philadelphia. Our move was delayed by COVID for a year.

And so that gave us a lot of time to clean. And so we didn't want to overwhelm the

the local sanitary garbage department, waste management, whatever you call it. So for about a year, every Thursday night, we would throw out three things. We would just go down to the basement. I mean, some of them we gave away. That's kind of sweet. You made it a ritual. Three things on Thursdays. Every Thursday night, three things. And it was amazing. Like by the time we actually were ready to move, we had gotten rid of a

lot of stuff. And we also, we used Freecycle, we used Facebook Marketplace, we sold a lot of our furniture to the people who were buying our house. And it always felt kind of good. It was good. Do we need that? No, we do not. Or it's like an unexpected treasure hunt and you find something that you forgot about or you find something that you love or brings back memories, even if you're getting rid of it. I

I get it. So I know my parents are going to love this episode. That's safe to say. And I hope everyone else gets a lot of value from it, too. We have some questions, even though my parents would probably like for us to talk more about their Swedish death cleaning and them. Yes. So our first question comes from Andrea, who has a few properties and is wondering what the best money moves are for each. She writes...

Hi, Jean. Thanks for taking my question. I hope to retire within five years, at which point my spouse and I will sell our primary residence and relocate to a cheaper and less populated community on the East Coast.

In addition to our primary residence, located in a very hot housing market, we own land where we will retire and build our forever home as well as another home nearby that is adjacent to our land and to a popular beach town. Sounds fabulous. We will live in that home after we sell the primary residence while the forever home is built and will then likely hold onto it as an investment property.

The primary residence has $300,000 left on the mortgage at a 2.25% interest rate. The land loan is $90,000 at a 9.2% interest rate. And the beach house mortgage is $250,000 at a 7% interest rate. We pay a little extra on all three each month and a few thousand specifically on the primary property. My

My question is whether, since we are this close to retirement, should we continue paying extra on the primary residence, or should we put the extra money towards the other properties?

While it is currently valued at nearly $1 million, the local government has enacted policies that have led to an increase in petty crime and density, so I am concerned the value of the home will decrease significantly before I am eligible to retire. The primary home is our cash cow, and we need the proceeds of the sale to fund the construction of the retirement home. Thank you. What do you think, Jean?

So I think there are two questions here and they get different answers. The first is you shouldn't be prepaying a mortgage at a 2.5% interest rate. That is just incredibly cheap money. So if you have extra money,

I would put it toward the land loan first because it's got the highest interest rate and then toward the beach house because it's got the second highest interest rate. And this is because, as we have talked about before on this show, when you're looking at the return on your money, it's equal to the interest rate minus any tax deductions.

So at a 9.2% interest rate, you're putting a 9.2% guaranteed return on your pocket. That's really good. 7% is nothing to sneeze at. 2.25%, you can do better. So that's that. But...

What you said about the petty crime and density has me really nervous. And if this were me, I would think about selling that house right now and renting. You could stay in the area. You could, I'm sure, find a place to live that would be suitable, if not perfect, until you are eligible to retire. But if you're really counting on the proceeds of

from this house to fund your retirement and you think there is a risk in this, it's like holding on to a stock that you think is going to fall. You would not do that. You would get out and you would put your money somewhere else and you can take the money that you get from this home. You could use it to pay off the other loans.

You could use it to, you could put it in the bank and use that money to support your rent over the next couple of years, put it into a CD or a high interest rate savings account, depending on how long you are able to tie it up for. I wouldn't put it at a lot of risk. I would not invest it in the markets, but I would look for opportunities

decent return and these sorts of real estate trends tend to they don't tend to reverse themselves that quickly and so if you're worried now that's what I would think about doing. Thank you Jean. That's a tough one but I have to say the strategy for your future homes sounds pretty fabulous so I hope it all works out.

Our next question comes from an anonymous listener, which for the record is totally fine. Just let us know when you submit your questions at mailbag at hermoney.com. You can email us there. This anonymous listener is wondering what the downsides are of canceling a long-term credit card. She asks, when I was 15, I was added to my parents' gas credit card for emergencies. This is a credit card through one of the major gasoline companies. And while I only use it once or twice a year, when I take my parents' car out with them,

It is still active. As a result, according to my credit report, I have a 50-year long credit history and I'm not even 35. My parents are older now, in their late 70s and 80s, and we have begun discussing consolidating accounts.

How much of a hit would my credit score take if we were to cancel this card? For added clarification, I have two other credit cards in my own name. I've never missed a payment. I paid off my car and I've never missed a mortgage payment. My credit score is in the 800s. I also do not plan to make any big purchases in the next few years that would require a hard credit check.

Anonymous knows her credit fundamentals. Except for one. And that is not, it's not a fundamental. It's a nuance. So I don't want to be at all critical because you have done such a good job of managing your credit and your credit profile. You are not the primary owner of this credit card. You are, even though you're 35, you are still an authorized user on this credit card.

And so canceling it is going to have much less of an impact on you than it does on your parents, particularly because you already have these other cards in your own name and particularly because your credit profile is so great.

And because you're not planning on taking out another loan in the next couple of years, don't worry about it. You are going to quickly rebound from canceling this authorized user card. I would expect to see your credit score take a small hit, but, uh,

you could fall all the way down to 760 and it would not impact your ability to borrow at the very best rates out there. So I would say go forward. Awesome. Thank you, Jean. And thank you, Anonymous and Andrea for writing in. Again, if you have any questions, we love hearing from our listeners. It's truly our favorite part about the show. Please email us at mailbagathermoney.com. You can also find that email in the show notes and also subscribe to our free...

weekly newsletter two times a week every Tuesday and Thursday that's in the show notes as well thanks Jean thanks Kelly and thanks to Katarina Blom for sharing the psychology behind why we like to keep things and how to evaluate what we can let go if you love this episode please give us a five star review on Apple Podcasts we always value your feedback and if you want to keep the financial conversations going join me for a deeper dive

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