Dr. Satchin Panda: Intermittent Fasting to Improve Health, Cognition & Longevity
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Welcome to the huberman lab podcast, where we discuss science and science space tools for everyday life. I am andy huberman, and i'm a professor of neurobiology and optimal gy at stanford school of medicine today. My guest is doctor touching panda.

Doctor touching panda is a professor and director of the regulatory biology laboratory at the sock institute of biological studies. His laboratory has made numerous important contributions that impact mental health, physical health and human performance. For instance, his laboratory discovered the neurons in the eye and neurons within the brain that regulators are so called cydia rythm.

Circadian rythm are twenty four hythloday, everything from gene expression to the overall functioning of tissues, our levels of mood and alertness, our ability to sleep, appetite and much, much more. In addition, over the last decade, doctor pandas laboratory has made critical discoveries in terms of how our patterns of eating over time impact our biology and our health. In particular, his laboratory pioneer discoveries related to so called intermit and fasting, also sometimes referred to as time restricted feeding.

Today, doctor panda, I discuss how are circadian behaviors, everything from when we wake up to when we view light, to when we avoid viewing light, to when we eat and what we eat and when we socialize. And how we socialize impacts our biology and our psychology, and how all of that has a strong impact on our health. During today's discussion, you will learn how we're strict your feeding to specific periods within each twenty four hour cycle, or perhaps even expLoring longer patterns of fasting.

And eating cycles can impact everything from the health of your liver to your gut to your brain, and how all of that impact things like mood and your ability to perform cognitive work. Indeed, today's discussion goes deep into all aspects of internet and fasting. A K time restricted feeding, we talk about the basic science as well as the recent clinical trials that have explored time restricted feeding in the diverse range of people, including men, women, children, people with diabetes, people who are otherwise healthy and much, much more.

I'm quite aware that internet and fasting is the topic of much debate these days. We go deep into that debate, and by the end of today's discussion, you can be certain that you will have learned all the latest and all the details all made very clear to you, thanks to the incredible expertise, discovery and clear communication of dr. panda.

As some of you may already know, doctor panda has authored several important books on the topic of international fasting and how you can benefit various aspects of health. Those books include the circadian code and a more recent book, the circadian diabetes code, both of which we provided links to in the show. No captions in addition of any of you are interested in learning more about doctor panda's work, including seeing his publications and reading those publications were supporting his laboratory.

You can do that by going to his laboratory website, which we have also linked in the show note captions. Before we begin, i'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and researchers at stanford. IT is, however, part of my desired effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science related tools to the general public.

In keeping with that team, i'd like to thank the sponsors of today's podcast. Our first sponsor is element. Element is an electorate drink with everything you need and nothing you don't. That means plenty of salt, magnesium and patache, this so called electronic and no sugar, salt, magnesium and potash are critical to the function of all the cells in your body, in particular to the function of your nerve cells, also called neurons. In fact, in order for your neurons to function properly, all three electrolytes need to be present in the proper ratios.

And we now know that even slight reductions in electronic light concentrations or dehydration of the body lead to deficits and cognitive and physical performance element contains a science back electorate ratio of one thousand milgram, that one gram of sodium, two hundred milligrams of paci um and sixty milligrams of magnesium. I typically drink element first thing in the morning when I wake up in order to hydrates my body and make sure I have enough electrical lites and while I do any kind of physical training and after physical training as well, especially if i've been sweating a lot, if you'd like to try element, you can go to drink element that's element dot com slash huberman to claim a free element sample pack with your purchase. Again, that drink element element dot com slash. And now for my discussion with doctor touching panda. Such an doctor panda, so good to see you again.

Yeah.

good to see you. We are colleagues still, but we used to be red across .

the street from one another.

But yeah, so dely that you're here. I think we're going to talk about a number of things, mainly intermit fasting time, restricted feeding and health, but also the many other things that you're doing. Just before we started recording, we were discussing your recent paper in nature um that involve recordings is from postmortem human retina.

So maybe if there's time at the end we can get back to h your lab has shown that you can essentially maintain a resurrected neurons from that people in order to potentially and eventually provide transplants ts, to rescue vision in the blind. So that's extremely exciting, but of course not the main focus of today's discussions. So I have to lit IT up.

The first question I have is, how am I supposed to define fasting and time restricted feeding in meaning when I go to sleep every night, i'm not eating? So in some sense, everybody is doing time restricted feeding to some degree. Another yeah.

At what point can we start thinking about a pattern of eating as time restricted feeding, so called inner and fasting? Does that have to do with how regular one is about the start and stop times? Um how do you think about defining interminable fasting, timer strato feeding? And maybe just a simpler fy, the conversation is one term more correct than the other in terms of describing this incredible pattern of feeding.

Well you know that the interposing covers many types of posting um actually IT started long time ago uh and it's embarrass into the history of calorie restriction um almost hundred years ago people show that if you reduce calorie, take in a rat than that rat can live for a long time.

And in those experiments the calories were reduced every single day and that LED to the idea that if we cut down our calories by twenty person said, then we can potentially live longer by doing two things. One is preventing is related disease or even if we fall us fall sick, maybe we can accelerate cure and keep the repair mechanic going so that we can live longer. But IT was very difficult to um count calories every day and reduce maintain that um I must say that it's not that kilograms ics is impossible law.

We are not doing IT. In fact lot of us we do um count calories in our subconscious mind when every time you took out, take out the service or something and looking at all, we are doing that. So the point is is we are doing subconsciously some kind of calorie uh counting. But reducing calorie by twenty thirty percent every single day is not possible for many people to bend. The idea came in mouse and that experiment whether they can eat every other day um and in fact there's every other day feeding um also LED to very similar almost equivalent health improvement as um continuous scalery restriction um then the idea was, well every other day is little with hard for humans but just imagine i'll just get to eat only one day and the other day none the idea came well for humans can to eat less for one or two days in the week um so that let to this five two diet by people who can eat for five days and then two days after reduce calories are also informationally people are fasting um there are you know water longer also came up this idea that period in maybe four or five days in every month or two months, three months, you can fast to reduce gallery and he also found many benefits of cato restriction was there were .

those studies on humans many .

of the studies started in in mice but uh alternate day fasting. Five to um water speed past pasting all of them have now been done in humans not for longevity of because because cannot do this for a long time um but for wet maintenance, for reducing some signs of beige reversing ghost done.

So all of them uh have been done in humans, mostly healthy humans uh and in some cases people with predial ties are so much Better so that let to the idea that that all these forms are fasting in which the total caller can take on any given day is reduced for one or more days in a week, a month. That became that umbrella on, became intimate and faster. So if you look up the scientific literature, most international ent fasting involves intentionally reducing calories for at least one or two days in a week or a few days in a month.

So when we uh publish time restricted feeling um the initial mouse experiments and even now most of the mouse experiments we want to test what is the impact of time restriction? Where is calories restriction so in these experiments we don't reduce gallery on any day of mouse life. So remise IT the same number of calories as the other limit on fred mice um but still they see health benefit so that's why we call a time recited feeding.

But since IT involves living without food for several hours for some people which is um IT can be very difficult. Ah the initial experiments was done. They were done for eight hours of feeding and sixteen hours of fasting that kind of became popular. And uh so that there are people use the same term as in comment fasting and now if you uh say in terminal fasting in popular literature of popular media than people usually referred to time restricted eating. So now coming back to how do you define time retry feeding um so the way um we have been trying to define experimentally and also in literature is um trying to confine earlier energy ant tech from solid and liquid fords combine within a consistent window of eight to twelve powers because there's something that do able of course people have done time is repeating with four hours, six hours and some people even try to eat everything within two hours, one million day um but the point is those are not feasible to maintain for very long time for a lot of people.

A one question about the six hour versus eight hour versus twelve. Our feeding window is IT important to that. The feeding window begin and end at the same time, more or less. yeah.

And if so, how much flexibility is there? So for instance, i'm somebody that I am not terribly hungry in the morning. I like to drink water, usually some caffeine and electrical lights.

Yeah, is in the period before my first meal. And my first meal always land sometime between eleven and eleven A M and twelve noon. There are exceptions.

Occasionally have a breakfast. Proper breakfast is called. I guess that would be improper if you're in the faster for me.

But typically elem on is when I first cease in, my last bite of food is typically around thirty and nine. That's what works for me. Yeah is that consistency affording me any benefit? Step illegal. Leave aside total color number matter, neutralize plant based meat that set up. But is there any benefit to shortening that feeding window that we are aware of or extending that feeding window or being even more rigid about the start and end of that feeding window?

yes. So they start of the feeding window. Um that's interesting because at the concept of time, the street feeding, when I describe animal studies, is eating for humans is eating. Uh so the concert actually came from the signs subsequently an rythm. So that means um um our body has an internal timetable um that's present in every cell, in every organ um that three programs um many molecular aspects of the cells that lives to pytheos, gy and all stuff so that essentially uh there is a predetermined timetable for every cell, every organ to do certain things at certain time and um this serial clock, as you and I know, are more sensitive to light lighters.

The most dominant um time give uh so for example, when daylights in time changes, when we travel from one time john to another time john, we feel kind of crappy because our delhi activity is uh out of sink from our internal clock. So that was known for very long time. But then around the year two thousand, two thousand two um there is a famous experiment by only similar from switzerland and what he did, he just fed the mice at the wrong time.

Mice are knocked on all the night feeders. And when he fed mice during this time, they leave o'clock. Instead of following its own routine, liver clock actually started following food.

So that means by changing our feeding time, we can change, we can tune our liver clock. And subsequently, the same experiment has been repeated many times. And when we repeated that into thousand nine, we fight out. This actually outside this brand center called super cosmetic nuclear R S C N, which is considered the master securian clock. Almost the rest of the brain event follows when we eat and that came out from pierson's live in uh where the systematically look that even um places that are very close to the S A um uh those were who know those some media high cotana as adventured nucleus all of this within couple of four five million tons of the S C N. But they were following for you.

So then um and now if we think about IT, so for a example, when they be like seven time changes, just one hour change um one hour change in aligned between our internal time and external time leads to kind of feeling groggy and feeling not out of big for once for one or two days. So the role of tom is when the time give her changes by one hour, then our internal clock takes at least a day to catch up. So that means if you're flying from a to new york, you're moving to three times Jones then on an hour, as it'll take three, three days to catch up with the new york time.

For some people can be even slower, and for some people, that can be two days. But the bottom mine is, yes, there is a dec. economy.

So then what does IT mean for the bodies if one of the function of clock is to anticipate when you are going to wake up, for example? So the blood pressure slightly goes up a heart read goes up, a breathing goes up. Similarly for food, almost every organ that is important feeding or eating 代 热线， uh, all of them have clock. So even from saliva production, there are the first phase of uh digestion to secretion of all the digestive juice and the storm work. And then I ve just some of neutral and liver everything the whole village expects one year supposed to eat and are getting ready for you to eat their first meal after fasting for long time so that words breaking the fast to breakfast um and when that time changes, when you changed by two or three hours from one day another than um sometimes I like all food didn't come maybe um we'll come at the same time we were at the wrong time and then the track the new eating times so suppose that one day you happen eating every day at a time. I start when .

you when does your feeding windows shut?

Six years so I used for ten hours. Okay, yeah. And then one day I switch to ten and then what happens? A clock is thinking while the food didn't arrive at eight but he arrived at ten. Maybe tomorrow the food will arrive somewhere between eight and ten, so will be a online. So next day I come back and eat at eight o'clock, and I may eat, but my clock is not ready to digest food. So that's why this idea is how to be consistent, uh, to take advantage of this, anticipate tory activity of her clock indifference systems to get the .

best out of IT. Is there evidence that those anticipatory systems in as a related digestion help us Better assimilate or food? I would imagine. So I mean, if you have the gastro juices that are going to help digest the proteins, fats and cover hydrates tes and already deployed at the time when you eat, I can imagine that food will be Better utilize than if you don't um so in other words, what is the advantage of having these anticipatory signals um in terms of potential health benefits.

The anticipated nal is really important from even even from working up um reason why many people feel not ready completely when they wake up to an alarm clock because the alarm clock wakes you up but your body is not prepared so that sleep in us after waking up to an alarm clock is due to our body is not prepared for that and then the best example is when the when the daylight saving time changes, particularly when we have to wake up one hour early uh what happens people who have underlying heart condition um when they are waking up, when the body is not ready, your heart is not ready and all over from the heart has to start pumping the harder then there is chance of heart attack and in fact people have looked at hospital records and defined that on those days and there is a start rise and heart backs in car accidents .

in car accidents .

too because your brand is not called in her dead so you cannot um maggots fine decision. So that's a great example of anticipatory activity. But coming back to disease, one thing is um and this is something that many people might have experienced now many rythm in our digestive system and one of the themes is our look, our interest time has this pasta tic function. So it's kind of contraction expands and that moves four doesn't move due to gravity IT goes back. And for and that perspective action actually slows down at night, uh few hours after our last meal. And um so that's why when people eat late at night, for example, then that food doesn't get digested because there is not enough digestive juice first thing and second even if he gets digested in the stomach doesn't move properly so then the next morning people get up and and think um of course um people condemn some alcohol very after another another thing that this is hand over but those who don't go they have the food hangover because IT doesn't die so that's one extreme example where food at the wrong time can um so healthy food at the wrong time can be crapped or junk .

yeah I experiences that where if I work later, I couldn't eat dinner or something and then I get home. I always debate whether not to try and sleep yeah but if i'm too hungry, often times it's chAllenging. And so for me, sometimes consuming something that at least seems easily digestible, like gogo or something in a liquid form um is Better for me than if I eat a meal.

I'd made the mistake of going to the refrigerator, being super hungry and eating a to food ten or eight P M. And then falling asleep. And indeed, the sleep, if i'm tired enough, can be quite deep.

But the next morning I feel just completely physically and cognitive ly weight down. So I think what you just described makes a lot of things. So is IT.

So if someone were just selective a feeding window, regardless of whether not IT bls in to classic and train fasting time or suit feeding sounds like eating your first by of food and eating your last bite of food at more or less the same time each day has benefits. I have this question you mentioned feeding versus eating and I think it's actually not just a uh, grammatical semantic issue. And here's why we tend to think about when .

you take your .

first bite of food and then when you take your last bite of food. But course foods digest different rates, more fat, and there is going digest make couple hundred over IT that. I mean, there's all these adjustments to the glasses mic index and so forth with foods and combination.

Is IT Better to think about not eating, but your fed state and blood sugar? So for instance, I often get asked on social media, does blank break a fast? So and so I like to think about IT scientifically, like, okay, is, does plain water break of fast know? Does a break of fast know? Um does one grain of sugar of success break fast? Well, probably not.

But does one teaspoon of sugar free fast? Well, you could say yes, but transiently like, so I mean, when we're talking about breaking a fast, are we talking about a rise in blood blue coast? Or are there molecular signals downstream of of a rise in blood blue coast that um cannot be reverse and otherwise? So i'm going to eat my first meal every day at noon, and I eat my last by the food at eight P.

M. And at nine am. For whatever reason. I have coffee with one tea spoon of sugar IT. I suppose in the strictest sense, I broke in my fast, but maybe by, if I went for a hard run that morning, maybe by nine thirty A M back in a corton cote, fasted states.

So what is the fasted state really? Because when i'm eating at eight P M, just to give another example, I started fasting at eight o one, perhaps, yes, but I have my blood glucose elevates. I'm not really fasted, I am fed.

It's just that i'm not eating the verb, right. okay. So so again, I I don't want to get overly detail just for sake of getting detail, but I think a lot of the confusion out there about what makes a fast yeah is related specifically to this issue.

No, which is if I eat hole pizza after sitting around all day is very different than if I eat a pizza after having run out twenty six miles marathon that very different um metall ics speaking. So how should people think about faster versus fed? IT can we be mildly fasted versus severe fasted? Can we be fed ish versus very fast? Anyway I i'll stop h asking questions now but because they all relate to the .

same thing yeah now this are um very interesting question. And unfortunately, as you can as you have you might have seen in life, um the most obvious questions are often unanswered because it's so hard to do this time experiments because if you really want to address this in humans, you are to bring humans for them in isolation just like you said, I can now imagine planning private sixty experiments.

Each experiment should involve eight or ten volunteers, its gender, sex and then do IT so it's difficult so now let's go back to see how do we uh less dissect um in terms of the indirect calorie metres. So for example, indirect calorimetry is best on this principle that whatever season we breathe in and carbon dioxide we breathe out, if we can measure these two, then we can figure out what are our body in total. We are not saying what they deliver got a patch muscle in total either is uh consummate brooker are fat as energy source.

The idea is when we for when we are without food for several hours, then ideally our body will tap on to gain first and then do a little bit of fat. And then when body is mostly running on fair, and that dress to two oxon will come to point seven. Um but what is interesting, we can do this experiment in mice, so we can go to mice and ask cookies.

So what happens in mice? So in my mice are little very different because mice are not simply little people there. The metabolic is different. They store relatively less like question than humans do. In terms of total, the overnight within twelve to fourteen hours, the area respiratory exchange rates, this ratio will go from one when the congeries mostly blue les or carbo hundred as energy source IT will slow down slowly go to point seven point seven, five, thirty, twelve to fourteen hours. They are kind of mostly running on fat.

So now as we give them for um within ten or fifteen minutes, they're not actually consuming couple of grounds they might have in a hundred or two hundred milligram of their child, so which is less than five persons of the food. But then the area will immediately begin to rise. A gift that small amount of food stopped that fat burning process and cracked out the um couple hundred burning process when you .

save fat burning process, you mean body fat stores being burned, right? Not dietary fat, correct? Yes.

all body first. That's why I said, um we don't know where that start is being born because we're just measuring how how much mice is being in and out. Um so for example, IT can be from the skin so subcutaneous or belly fat uh but not .

diet ary for no by that .

time the data, if had this already have served and digested and hopefully sitting on the liver ardest SE issue somewhere. But it's day fat as body yes thank you. Yes yeah the .

reason I asked is that nowaday I think more than half of the battles about nutrition that I see online relate to to this issue where I won't named named but someone will come along and say low carbo hydra ET allows you to burn more fat um and the more nuanced um people out there will say, well that's true but you're also talking about dietary that the world can confuse people I realize you're not doing that.

You are certain ly not when the people guilty doing this but indeed you eat more fat, you're burn more fat. But that doesn't mean you're burn more body fat. In fact, I think the data say under conditions of color restrictions, you actually burn less. I I don't all ably get i'll probably get a pitchforks and through the male to me on that one. But but I think that's true whether you know people who consume carbon rate can still burn body fat, even though the majority the fuel the burning is from carbon hydrate .

so so here in this case, for example, for mice, we know that as soon as they start eating um the area goes up. Coming back to your question, what would the ideal for us to do the experiment to be O, K, I will go back to that and then give the mouse maybe hundred milligram of ford and mouse runs around in the case, and then will continue to measure to see how long IT takes for the mouse to come back. And then so there's one has been so now let's see um and let's stay on this and then i'll come back and talk about non caloric for and whether that is considered that i'd like .

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So there is a famous experiment that was published last year by georgia asi lab and IT came out in science that relates to calorie restriction. And we kind of started with um we started discussion that the rat experiments were done with calorie restriction and researchers gave reduced calorie construction by twenty percent or thirty percent and and give that food the rats and then subsequently mise and they all lived longer what is interesting is um in all those experiments um the researchers came and give this bullers of food at one time where they are livered, unfair mice or rats, they had access to food all the time so they are eating all the time and then these states uh were given twenty questions less. And what happens is this mis address that i'm going to take that less food which is less or now and just eat a little bit of a lunch and a snack after three hours or snack after three hours, they gover all that food within two to three hours, maximum four hours, food is gone.

So there is sort of on the oma died the one meal day yeah.

that almost like an one Miller day, three to four hours for discount or you consider on four hours sitting a feeding and twenty hours fasting. Um so then the question became, well, the benefit of calory agresta tion, as we know, is IT due to reduce gallery our time restricted feeling out time. There is a timing component to IT that they are eating all of that within three to four hours and there is a long fasting. And this is a difficult question to answer because now you had to ask these poor grass student technicians to come and split that food into eight or ten or fifty and different small persons and then give them to mice in every two hours.

Um so georgia has I actually published the first paper in twenty seventeen showing that most called restriction said in aman he used the protocol that was used by caledon tion field IT actually creates a condition of time restriction so he saw that and then he went back and work with engineers to come up with a smart kids where um he could actually tell he could program how much food is given to mice at what time of the day or night completely programmed so then he took this. For example, suppose the other limit of had mice at the pig ground of how in a day and if you want to reduce calories by twenty percent and the sea mouse should get four grams of food, and he divided this into nine or ten meals and then give them in every ninety minutes, so in this case that I think small meals throughout their nights there is no fasting. So we can say that, well, this mouse actually is not getting into fasting because in every two hours is uh getting some food and then he measured how long the mouse is going to live um and he used um economy.

Uh this is a very standard protocol. People count how many might have dying on which day and then examine them to see whether they died because there was an accident or they actually there was a natural cause and then they calculate at the end what is the um half a life. So fifty percent survival because that's on an hours.

That's a good indication because if there is an outlier that will live for a long time than that can sew. So what was the interesting was the elivated fared mice up because they live certain number of days. And then this calorie restricted mice, you've never gotten to super fasting, but kind of eating, snacking throughout the night that also live ten personal extra ten percent in longer. So that means calories restriction extended life span by ten percent.

I've wondered about this because recently, you know, there's been there were a bunch of news headlines about intermit and fasting. And Frankly, I was frustrated if you looked at one major news outlet, they would say time restricted feeding affords no additional benefit beyond color restriction for weight loss yeah then an another popular impressive venue let's call at that same study described as time restricted feeding doesn't work yeah right and then another one, maybe some place um even more extreme struct feeding um uh only beneficial because of color restriction or something like that.

So what you essentially got our three different interpretations of the same data, all of which are well, two of which are true, one of which is false in my opinion. But what I think people take away from that is oh time mistreated feeding is into valuable, which is not the case that I think for many people it's a convenient way to eat because at least for people like me, it's similar to design between portions of my day when i'm meeting in portions of day my day when i'm not eating as a positive portion control yeah for other people, portion control can work. But all of that is related to either maintenance or loss of weight.

None of IT deals with the potential health benefits independent of weight loss. right. So and so I I think that um if we can segment those out um obviously in humans, it's hard to know if a given treatment or experiment is extending life because you not really know how long people live anyway.

yes. right. Wherewith mice, you have some sense of when the mortality was likely to occur. So what what can we say about time, restricted feeding and longevity in terms of biomarkers or in terms of any other indication that people who start and stop their feeding window at a consistent time somewhere between eight and twelve hours per twenty four hours cycle, are tilting the scales towards living longer as opposed to living shorter?

This example of this news article that you man is really interesting because that the georgia has is study. Because I described that if you split calories and eat throughout the day, throughout day, night, then they might leave ten person extra. But if you now give mouse the same calorie restricted diet and fit them during daytime, either within twelve hhs or two hours, then they must leave ten person extra beyond that.

Yes, so twenty person. So okay, so let me make sure I understand so that so that I don't make sure I understand. If you take a certain number calories and you distribute them throughout the twenty four hour cycle, yeah, it's chloric striking.

The mice will live ten percent longer yeah. If you, however, restrict that to the active cycle. So for humans, the daytime then twenty per, then they live twenty percent long.

So it's not just total Clark intake yeah that meaning it's not just important to be submitted ance and calories for single on chevy IT also is important as to when in the twenty four hour cycle here you eat those calories. Do I have that? right?

So now that still the story is not over because the mice were fed during daytime, they're not supposed to IT.

that's right. So for us, we will be the equivalent of being on the night shift and only eating at night, but a sub caller, sub maintenance calorie diet I get.

But when he fed mice during nighttime, and they are supposed to IT, and that think getting the same number of calories within two hours or two hours, then they must left thirty five percent longer than the control.

thirty five percent longer. So a scale to human lifespan, don't thirty five percent longing mean that? And again, no one knows. But um humans, now, what is the average mortality in the united stay somewhere?

Ah so it's surround eighty IT dues to be eight in our slot, reduce little bit because of covered, but let's take eighty.

And so people then now living somewhere between twenty five and thirty five years longer, putting some robots on here.

Yeah so that is a really profound. But now you wanted out um biometry and steps and now if you look at any given time within that experiment, and actually I went back and um had a separate court of mice very similar and so the article take this samples and of course in this case you have to sacrifice the mouse and he looked for um he did load of molecular analysis with non markers for a jamo himkof in one see equivalent of locks, control, collect all all the stuff IT could not find anything that predicted the benefit of caloric string. So that means in this experiment, whatever we know so far, the prediction of longevity, none of them could predict for the this um they are only mouse, which yet throughout the night that mouse is going to live less than the nightfall mouse that was going to live twenty five, twenty five percent extra.

Does that mean that there are biomarkers related to longevity that we just .

haven't discovered? Yeah yeah so that exactly. So that means what would we know so far about biomarkers? Um so he could not use to predict. Maybe there was a lot of noise. Maybe he wanted he had to use more number of miles to get that because you know, by much, i'm not going to predict in every instance by some error. What is also very interesting is if you look at the body where and body composition of all these mice, there is no difference in body where and body composition .

across all these .

different because all these groups.

so IT doesn't matter when they ate yeah, provided they were submit substance maintenance calories and take so less, fewer calories then is required to maintain their weight. Didn't matter what pattern of eating they were the same way yeah so that in many ways seems to mimic the human studies where they say, look, IT doesn't really matter whether or not you use color restriction or or you start your feeding window in the morning or start your eating window in the evening or you um or you portion control for sake of weight country .

weight loss because you are taking is that and another thing with the human study that we are referring to you here, that in that human study people are actually already eating within ten hours window habitually when they selected this people to have them enroll in the study. So they are already eighteen for ten hours and fasting for fourteen hours, all participants had to reduce their calorie act, and they reduced by almost forty five percent.

The C. R group continued with ten hours sitting window, and the C. R. Plus time restricted group had to eat the same number of calories within eight hours.

So it's just a two hour difference.

IT was OK so that people.

I just want to make sure people can understand in this human study, which is the one that I felt that the popular press venues all accept. One venue got either semi wrong or badly wrong in terms. The conclusion that was my interpretation anyway, was that either people came into the study eating basically in a ten hour feeding window, which goes back to my first question, which is that most people are not eating in the midst the night.

yeah. They are on shift work and they are they are sleeping during the day. anyway. They're reading and attend to twelve hour feeding window anyway. So you're saying they either did chloric restriction portion control within a ten hour window or another group within the study a sub mainland calories to chloric restriction C R, as weren't calling IT the acronym C R, but restricted that to an aha feeding window and they didn't see any difference in terms of weight loss .

yeah but but does .

not all that surprising, right? I mean, if it's just a two hour difference.

yeah exactly. So we have done that experiment in my and we don't see um difference in not only work less many other markers. And I was talking about this um jota his paper where I told you that he allowed his mice to eat within two hours or twelve others sub gallery died two or .

twelve two or twelve .

yeah .

that's dramatic but still .

he did not see change in longevity even within those two. So that means um when you do killer restriction and then at least four monks and you are within twelve bar swinger, um that that is giving the mice the best benefit, the optimum benefit and um two, three, five or twelve for a mouse dozen matter at least for the longevity.

Can we conclude for humans that whether not a feeding window is four hours, six hours, eight hours or twelve doesn't matter, provided the calories are are similar or same?

Well, I won't go to that extent because we don't know many of these um particularly we don't know how this sort eating window will affect both success because you know we always think many of these mouse experiments that tell .

about those should be changing. I know this because i'm on study section, which is just to a bunch of people who who review grants, is that every grant now has to include sexus biological variable. It's hard to get away with. Well, rather I should say that the way IT should be said, which is people are required and SHE want to look at these phone enon in male and female mice yes, especially if there are differences.

So in this case there are many amends。 There is also another paper um in time to repeating that also came out the big paper showing that they um thermogenesis was accounting for loss in fat mass in time the street fat mice there was also done only in male mice um so this is um we are paying attention IT. We are now doing all of our studies in male, female, and we do see big differences between male, female coming back to humans. What typically happens is when you're trying to do four hours or six hours, time restrictions will inadvertently reduced their career can take just .

because of gut volume. I tried one year per day, and then I felt like I was eating so much at that one sitting, yeah, that IT LED to a lot of gastric distress. And I retired after the meal. In part, the reason I like to do time restricted eating as I have more energy yeah and certainly in the fasted state I feel more energized especially if i'm ingesting a little caffeine .

or something like yeah uh so people will reduce um energy and take and then some people who are more active, they can actually unconsciously there may be spending more energy in their physical activity and best migrate all of this combined than how eating and that can have a very adverse ve fact in long term because we know that this energy deficit and international um sciences c term for that is called read as relative energy deficit in sports .

of energy deficit and .

sports okay ah because nearly forty percent of athletes um not the N F L guys but you know a lot of people who do try and field um and nearly forty years of athletes actually experience this red red dress without knowing .

can male and female red so it's red. R E D S relative relative energy deficit in sports. Interesting is the first i've heard this acronym.

We have a new acronym folks. This is good to add to a list of other iconium, but so males and females can experience IT. So in females i've heard that red um can lead to uh em so loss of of of the mental cycle.

Yeah so that's uh so common that uh so prevent and that impact many women many female athletes. They take IT for granted that yes, if they are more active than they will lose their mental cycle, which is uh which may be common but it's not Normal or of the member health even .

if they don't want to get pregnant.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

yeah. We had an expert on female hormones come on and say the very same thing that regular cycling is a of obligatory mental cycle is is important to try and um maintain.

Yeah so that's one but then what is really concerning is um IT does affect bond health. And um in this state people actually have a long period of time the loose bond mass and the bone also becomes more prone to injury, microfracture and fractures. Um so again, as a risk means some people are trying to eat within very short time and they are physical active.

That happens. And IT also has impact on uh main's division. Why these women are losing mentor cycle is the um H P G access is disrupted, hypothalamus petitionary good order lexis and IT starts in my starting of stream at hythloday as appetite tory.

So that means that H P A access have Thomas petitt and adrenal axis may also get disrupted. One of the symptoms of parts is also depressed on anxiety pipa like symptoms. And we know that many um many athletes experience that.

We think that well this this might be just be a pressure that always trying to compete, and we know them. Unfortunately, there are few athletes just can cope, and that many attempted suicide or suicide. So this is a serious issue.

And there is also another new topic in the law to come up with a mouse model of reads and then study IT um but this is one risk why we should not reduce waiting interval to two such to one male very short time um because I can have adversity fact that we don't know now um maybe picture will pick up when we systematically study them. There are studies that are published showing four hours and six hours time rested. The dating has benefits on wet lass but those are on healthy individuals and they are in the study.

So they um you know the study seem to get where already monitoring the matter that there was no sudden wet loss or White loss below um some safety level. Um so those are very different from regular people who are who may be even Normal weight um even with within the healthy range. If they do, then they can potentially.

So that's why what we think is eight to ten hours, maybe the ideal spot to begin with. And um once you are physically active and you are also spending a lot of energy in physical activity or sports, you can even go up to twelve powers because in mice, we have done that experiment. Um after twelve powers that does get lot of benefits, not all.

but so this is twelve hours .

of of heating for about of posting um in humans um again nobody has done systematically twelve powers, but there is one study in europe um from ten high color lab and T H I and I we collaborate so they used our michie's an clock up this is a research rap we develop just to this is mostly used in time restricted eating studies and um he had nearly I think he started with two hundreds with participants but then at the end he selected and took very small number of group people who are very um metrics about recording all their food and divide them into useful feeling, whatever they wanted to eat, whatever they wanted to eat.

And they were given the um advice of swiss nutrition, advice that given to improve health and reduced blot workers almost like divide is prevention program in the U. S. And then the other group was given advice to eat within twelve hours. Um this is very early on in time 的 strating。 And we thought that the mice for getting some benefit, let's try with the twelve hours has any benefit.

Um the bottom line is at the end of three months and six months but um he reported is both groups lost same amount of boyband um and then there is not too much significant difference between groups, but both groups actually improve their health so the bottom line is they sway nutritional advice that he was giving um which is the standard of care there IT achieved the same amount of work loss as just giving people the advice eat within twelve powers so one way to look at the look at the results like this. And then he went to more extent, actually look at every single meal these people consume. So though close to I think close to sixty or seven thousand million records and pictures, he went through and then classified them to say, what are these are um good quality food.

So they call IT the nova classification one, two, three, four. One is the food that you can almost eat, fruits, vegetables, um yoga, daily products that you can almost without any preparation. And then second and over her two is kind of home home cooked for that most people will prepare a few minutes than three.

And then four. One is the ford that you can never prepare at home. So for example, biscuit or cookies that we usually purchase on few things. And usually the nova four are unhealthy ultra cesspool, so which we should not retain.

So the advice to reduce nova four and what he found was the people who got all these advice um to improve the nutritional quality, they actually improve the nutritional quality that reduced the nova for food. People who are in time to strating their IT were in full bowers that did not change the nutrient quality. But what is interesting is that both got the same modest weet loss.

So that begs the question that then they may maybe didn't. I would do this to combine nutrition advice with time restriction and maybe reduce the time to ten hours that might help um so twelve hours is something that I said anyone from five year old, two hundred years old can do. And um if you are trying to maintain where that might be a good way and combine that with exercises will be .

great and and people can more easily avoid reads yeah no way. women. And for non athletes or recreational exercise women, if they distribute their calories across twelve hours, are less likely to lose their menstrual cycle.

yeah. So again, this is something that we have to look carefully. They have to be because we do have the mass arian clock up that many people download and self monitor and to share the data for researchers.

We will provide a link to that. By the way, it's a great it's a great tool, yes.

But once in a while, we do get this input from some women saying, oh, I started doing your time being, and I am seeing all this problem. And I asked them a kid, so what else are you doing? They typically improve the nutritional qualities of the eating only salad and few.

They are trying to increase the fire intake, and it's really hard to eat so much of unit four because cooking helps to a job monument ent. And then at the same time, the running five miles every day. Of course, all of this combination can lead to reads like symptom. So that's why well, I think is a good point if a combining physical exercise and Better nutrient quality because in mice also, we have seen that if my are eating healthy food and they are eating with intended powers, then they also live longer than miss the writing healthy food, but distributing that calorie over a long period of time and this is um raf hai cabs um finding from an I he has system matic ally done this study with two different types of diet and in mice and he finds the same thing that even mice are writing within twelve powers. They do live longer than mice that IT Normally even held liquid I I will call .

a recent study I think he was either polishing, sell reports or sell reports. Medicine, forgive me for memory, which for both, of course, sales journals, excelling journals which explored time restricted feeding in the context of low carbon hydrate or non low carbo hydrate diet. So is low carbo hydrate versus low carbo hydrate in time restricted? yeah.

So these are chloric matched right between groups. And then non low carbon hre dies. So, more standard. I think he was somewhere in neighbor of sixty percent of calories from complex carver had and as I recall the um the greatest weight loss member in calories across group spokesman was achieved with low carbo hydrates plus collar c restriction no um and I wondered why all the popular news Venus didn't cover that study but that's why bring IT now I thought this is really interesting and and i'm somebody who's cycled low kara hyda before I find IT hard to sleep after about three or four days of being on a low starch yeah guy just personally I saw I like you some starches yeah especially of exercising intensely you're working intensely that's a editorial there that um but look I know many people who do just feel Better on a low carbo hydroid died. But what do you think of those data because IT speaks to the idea that okay, it's not just the total number of calories, it's not just the quality of those calories, it's the timing of those calories. And maybe corporate re restriction in conjunction with time restricted feeding might be the best path for people who are looking to lose weight.

No, I I totally agree that when IT comes to nutrition, quality, quantity and timing, all these three matter, nearly forty percent of people who maintain healthy body wet, because sixty percent are over wet robes, forty percent are maintaining health body with and out of those, forty percent outside. Early majority of them are very aware about how much dating and what qualities are really in .

to you looking at the forty percent of the glass that or we say not full, that was a punk intended but the um no it's a very interesting way of looking at rather than saying you a wire sixty percent of americans obese uh saying why forty percent not obese it's a very interesting .

way to look at IT yeah I mean, subconsciously we are always making the decisions and means i'm sure that you are not going on eating um cheebo ger .

every day because you want to improve because I lt feel yes no not certainly not the stage or any stage of my life. I think that I think people actually, you think the pandemic had a lot to do with this. I think that people started to take a look at what they were doing to support or not support their health generally.

Yeah, I know people gained a lot of matter in the pandemic. Other people got really into fitness. I've seen some colleagues, you've always maintained um you've always been in good shape the first time i've seen you in a while, and you've seemed to have age backwards. So you are a poster for your own ideas and hypotheses about time of the feeding.

But but I I noticed that during the pandemic, and number of people emerged from the pandemic in Better shape, other people in much more shape, but seem like I IT was like a by model distribution there yeah so yeah, I get the sense that starting and stopping eating at more, less the same time each day, even if lorc restriction is not the main focus. Yeah has additional benefits. Can we talk about some of those benefits as they relate to the other things that impact health? So for instance, if you're starting and stopping eating at more, less the same times each day, are you sleeping Better? Are you getting more predictable a shifts in alertness and sleepiness? I can you predict when you'll feel good enough to exercise?

Yeah maybe can talk about that because you of course um are well known for time, stricter feeding and the science around that but also other things as well. Not the least of which is circadian biology generally. So I always think of the main timekeepers for our system, feeding, light activity and social connection.

Did I miss? And maybe temperature? Yeah, yeah. So how do these combine with one another and using timing that we begin and stop feeding as kind of an anchor point.

we explore that little bit. Yeah so you know we got into this begin and end and we you asked for the gallery how much calorie will break the first um one thing that I want um the listeners and views to bring back to this timing of fun way， one way of breaking the fast because we equate health with wet body wet. And um that's why we are talking about nutrition quality and quantity because both of them have impact.

So now let's think about mental health because lot of people do struggle with mental health. They have aniele or um depression and also um Scottie because there are a lot of people who also have a flocks or hardbound and we know that esc reflux or hardball d can be exhausted by caffeine and take an empty stomach. Um those who have a set flags headband n are prone to that then um having black off in the morning bit for any food um can observe their stomach.

That's why in those cases is very clearly that gaffin for them becomes the trigger and there something that is supposed to come and the stomach is not seeing the four sides overreacting producing excess is and that comes with as a highers and that for their experiences. Um so if people have that kind of condition, then maybe they should consider when they drink their first coffee is breaking the overall fast or kind of putting them, putting the health at risk or a flux. The other thing is people who have anxiety, panic attack. Um we know that geffen can you especially on .

an empty stomach.

especially on an empty stomach. So put them again, caffeine can be a trigger. So that's why um I want to kind of differences that there is this mental health and other aspects of health and these are too clear jump es where anxiety, panic attack related to brain health or excited flux related to a gut health um in those cases when we consume that capture in the morning can effect so do you avoid .

caving in the morning?

And actually um here is the interesting uh, history of our cashier and this is something I didn't not know and um I was once invited to this history of nighttime activity and maybe we can take a little bit of detail and talk about a nightly activity because that passenger me as A C D and via because of the last two hundred thousand years, means we assume that humans homosapien ens evolved two hundred thousand years ago.

So we have been as a species, we have been living on this planet for two hundred thousand years, and only in the last, you can say, couple of thousand and five thousand years when we came to control fire. Or maybe you can even go back to one hundred thousand years, there is some debt. Um so then the question is, well, when we controlled fire and we light IT of the fire and we could light up whatever we wanted, we can add fuel and we can stop the fire when we don't want IT.

That's the he ability in humans that differentiate them from all the other species, no other species. We can always say yes. There are signs of this colligan.

Um this is on making. For example, we know many crows can make decision. Many, many animals. They kind of figure out strategies how to get food, but control news of fire is something very specific to human.

And when we started um controlling pie, fire did not essentially extend the day because fire created the evening. There is very different from what people did during the day and what people used to do during the day, walk, allotments s gathering food, who was almost everything that we did. And so in the evening, after the after the after, we brought a food, mostly tubers, or maybe then tells to cook, or once in a while is um animals that we can, we could barbecue.

Um all of these things happen on fire. And fire was too expensive that IT was mostly communal. So if you go back to, for example, must I and um all this uh sorry um populations that have no access to electricity and still living kind of that uh historical life, fire is a communal event and the certain around the good food.

And then what happened, they did not talk about work. They talked about um culture. They talked the same. They danced uh strategize um that's how politics started philosophe started signs started all of this thanks that are very you need to human civilization and started around fireside chat so um and that way, if think about IT, we are still doing fireside chat. The only thing is we have the microwave and the television.

our social media chat with our homes.

So still so we are hooked to that evening activity because that's when we are completely free from the pressure of the world. And we want to express ourselves our independent time. So that's why most people find IT very difficult to do timidity and stop eating at six o'clock because it's in grand, in our in our even DNA that we want to eat and socialize in the evening.

So now, uh let's fast for and see what is the role of coffee in this. If you look at coffee on jobs and particular cafe um where people can come and have a little bit coffee and socialize, IT also started as the evening activity and this isn't um now we can go back instant world because that's one place where coffee cafes started in mid sixteen centuries. We are talking about fifty in forty to fifty seventy um and that's when um i'm sorry i'm forgetting the number of historians who actually invited me and uh okay is next champ uh career and uh um I must be buttering the name but I you will provide the spelling .

and the wonderful thing about social media, somebody will tell us on youtube the proper pronunciation. So is a great opportunity if you know the proper pronunciation, please put IT in the .

comments on youtube. I should have even checking right now, not picking up .

that so what .

happened was um the coffee was introduced and um people came and drink coffee and talked about politics at night, at night, at evening and he actually started with a with super branch of islam because there they want to uh condyle coffee the evening and this is the branch of islam where they actually sing and dance and all that happened in the evening so singing, dancing um by the supreme and then here in istanbul people started congregating and having um talk about politics but then are on the same time um some end of in talking there was a good sizable number of muslims who have to do five players a day number of prayers at set time the first prior is very early in the morning and then they figured out that if they wake up and immediately have coffee then they can stay awake for the first prayer and in that way they felt pretty good they woke up and so that so I started as a morning drink to stay awake and kind of get get on with the day but what happened was I don't know whether you however tried talk kh coffee it's Better take yeah a .

few years ago right before the pendel c twenty travel to turkey as well. The food is amazing. The coffee is indeed very, very thick yeah and I have a prey high caffeine tolerance from drinking so much coffee in urban matter over the years and still do I really enjoy IT but um yeah it's it's very intense and so what your team is that um coffee and takes started as a way to extend into the night.

Ability to extend into the night at all was because of the ability to harness fire. And then coffee stimulating properties were leverage told morning, which is essentially like the way I think about IT. We didn't episode caffeine and some someone else, Michael pollen, not I described in this way, whether you sort of taking a loan out on your energy bank account, we caf, you're suppressing the identity system density makes you sleepy.

But that had done in system will kick in in later. So it's a credit card of source within interest, right? And the interest being um an energetic lag that you're going to experience in the afternoon. Yes.

but what happened was the strong coffee um that gave hard bone on s reflux to lot of people. So then they started eating something with coffee. And that said, the culture of breakfast started .

in the coffee actually LED to the development of breakfast, not the other way around. And yeah, so that's very hardening. No, again, no pon intended for the the caffeine lovers among us, which I count myself one of those.

So essentially the food before coffee became breakfast. So you kind of give something to to a stomach. S is busy digesting that. And then when the coffee concern is not reacting to coffee and creating s plus.

So IT wasn't is fascinating. IT wasn't that breakfast is necessary on its own IT was essentially a buffer against the gastric distress caused by caffeine.

And late in that context, we can say that what the same thing after and all over the world where coffee is not consumed but still people eat something in the morning.

Um you said you should start your um first meal of the day around eight. What time do you wake up, wake on started to what time do you have your first caffeine?

No actually I so that I brought of this story because I have coffee after my breakfast. fantastic.

I'm a big proponent of delaying caffeine intake for a few hours after waking for other reasons that my listeners have heard me talk about endlessly. So I won't bother with that now. But I think allowing the surface to say that allowing some of the natural waking up signals to occur, you using light to kind of clear away in a dentistry to further extend and activity is Better than using a stimulate. But until a few hours later, this is fascinating because i've never thought about the link between extension into the night, socialization or socializing, rather feeding and caffeine.

Now actually kind of um speaking what many other researchers have found and this this particularly the fireside chat and forgetting again the name of the scientist I think is from university of washington, seattle um SHE went to africa and kind of recorded what people are talking. Of course he could not understand what they were talking .

twitter and whether or not tesla zs stock is going up, of course just just getting folks and then came .

back and try to translate and then figure out that what they are talking during daytime and in the evening, we are very different. So um so so what are they talking about at night?

So exactly.

So this is like they're talking about match making and talking about politics and strategizing. To gather food or or um even singing and dancing. Uh so this is um if you think if we think about IT, how we manage sunset to a bad time, what we do between sunset and bad time affects most of our health.

I'm going to think about that for a moment. I totally agree. And by the way, i'm a huge believer and and i'm in living in great hope for the idea that right now I do think that scientists understand a lot more about the different stages of sleepy low wave sleep and sleep bittner.

Then we do active waking states like we talk about being focused or being alert. But that's not those are in scientific terms, as we know. But I do believe, and i've noticed a distinct difference between the first eight hours of the day in terms of cognition.

And we know that the category means are at much harder levels, plus court is also a dope court, also up, and all of really at much hier levels than in the later evening. And so this evening time IT is certainly in the context of mental health. We know that morning and evening we are basically different creatures. Yes yeah completely yeah.

So that's why I think in the evening, if you think about IT um again this is uh again another set of research from um my good friend for assia who deglaciation yeah oh yeah .

yeah a big fan of her is another he's a fellow argentine so occasionally we ref about things related to that but he's a wonderful biologist.

Are you guys collaborating? Yes, I said very humble and kids, a low profile but he does amazing, amazing research. He does research that um we want to know but nobody is ready to do IT because field research is very difficult to go to the wilderness are go to the places whether is no electricity, and then record um when these people are eating, sleeping or in this case activity exposure to light um that tassie has done.

And uh he put this active watch, which is kind of a modern um activity to tracker um but is a little bit more refined because IT also collects light information. What he found was most of these argentinean towels who have no access to electricity, they consistently go to bed somewhere between three to three and half hours after sunset. So this is very important because we always think that um our ancestors, when they didn't have a electricity, as soon as the song went down, they just want to sleep. Now the fire extended the evening, so they were staying awake for three to four hours, kind of, you know, um decompressing ing themselves that we say, and then doing all these activities, cooking, sharing meals and then they will not go to sleep. And if you look at the sleep onset variability, IT was very small, like they're going to bed almost within fifteen to thirty minutes, standard deviation.

So no night hours versus morning people. This company. So get to that. None of this this I get attacked by for many reasons. That just goes with the business i'm in of being public facing these days. But every time I talk about viewing sunrise or low angle sunlight, know getting some sunlight early as someone says, well, i'm a night out and they just it's almost like a protest of trying to protect identity. It's become this ideological like I I identity related thing. I'm a night out, i'm a morning person, I am not but you're telling me that in these cultures where there is intel electricity but there is fire, people are going to sleep within all of them within about fifteen minutes of one another ah so there is no such thing as .

a night morning person text pointless because um uh and then he said no he he has not seen when he has track hundred people. And if we ask many, many sleep researchers of um at least the public facing sleep and physicians or experts, they say, yeah we can say one third of people at night, all one third of morning and one hundred and between .

wolves and and i'm not being dispersed ing of that idea. I think people really do feel as if the orient towards one pattern or another.

When I was an underground student, I never went to bed before midnight. And actually like midnight was my going to bed time. Exactly like eleven forty five will try to get ready to hit bed and and by twelve en in bed and I used to get about six alarm.

of course.

but then time I used to take forty five minutes on our nap. And there is regular, like even if one ever I got time. Of course in college, you know, you don't have the whole debt, unlike in high school, I don't have opportunity to to nap but in call as you can I might .

have been one of those kids with his hood on napping on the desk but .

they come around and they wake up yes and this guys just come back to the dorm and um after lunch. So um then in ground school, I remember I really went to bed before two and I could have clearly said that i'm a night all and actually wasn't night as very comfortable staying up so late as very productive doing experiments, writing all this um manuscripts mostly but then afterwards um when I look back in post dog, when I had when we had our daughter um then things started changing because you have to put the baby to sleep and then after the baby slips, it's almost when you have a baby your life revolts and on the baby so then we had to dim down the light.

There is no caffeine and alcohol drinking or any other things after the baby slaves because we cannot do too much noise then I realized that no and actually not a night out and I became kind of more Normal because I could go to sleep between ten and eleven and um that's how I thought, well maybe this is very unique to me but what is interesting is um have another colleague um good friend can write junior or to and he also had garston and and post dogs like me who strongly believe that they were night out um just like everybody else and he took he took the whole love for camping. And when they were camping, of course there is less light, a lot of physical activity, hiking during day and they all went to bed. Um between thirty P M.

I love that study. Yeah what just described as a study, I think there are two studies there. Two yeah and what's interesting is our recall is that after going camping for a weekend where people wake with the more or less with the sunrise and go asleep a few hours after sunset, yeah, their melatonin, rythm and cortelyon ms. And sleep rhythms persisted on that schedule for several weeks despite returning to environments where there was a lot of artificial lighting, which I find amazing, that just a weekend of consistent rising and going to bed with the sunrise and sunset more or less allowed in a reset that was a very long .

lasting yeah so um actually even in horai yesterday, he found that almost all the toba they wake up around a sunrise time and it's amazing when I look at this hundred two years and it's like short, tight.

So take that night so called nights. I also would in graduate school, I would work until two A M. I loved in our blast music in the lab.

Everyone was at home, pretty much not everyone, but there were the night crew. And then i'd get in some time around get up for sometime around nine, thirty, ten and then get in around eleven. And IT was no problem because I was going to stay so very late.

And then over time, I know if I become more lock to a standard schedule. So I think what we're seeing is that the clock, our internal clock can shift yeah, but this idea that we are genetically bias tored one schedule and another may need revisiting. That's what that's the conclusion .

i'm taking from number of us. One is um you know some people are genetically so reprogramme because they other Cliff side is um what is called technically familiar advances f of syndrome. So these people um you can give them caffeine or whatever, but they will fall asleep.

So at eight o'clock they cannot stay away till nine or ten. And since it's a very strong final time and sleep and second under them failed, they are very well study. So in fact, uh, li pei can in with food, they were the first one to track one family like this. And then they figured out there is a mutation in one of the clothes period two that clogged and that mutation um allow the clock to run in a way that these people went to bed very early.

I guess historically, given these fireside chats, that those people were probably not contributing much to the political discussion, whatever they was decided after they went to sleep as what they woke up into. That reminds me because as you are describing the difference between nighttime discussions versus morning discussions, is there any theme to what is discussed in the morning verses in the item of people just sipping their eating and sipping their caffeine and just waking up um but are there any ideas about what morning discussions really consist?

Morning discuss, daytime discuss are mostly about um work and like counting, gathering a farming other stuff and even these days therefore we do we you know you go to uh I go to work and is mostly one meeting up another and um we are talking about and if different committees and solving problems are your students come with questions, you have your T A or the office hours, all these things work related.

We're not talking among serious philosophy of unless you're in the philosophy department that you are talking our political science um and also we are not singing and dancing. So that's why the evening activity, even these days, are very different. And typically, the evening activities are where we express ourselves.

We express who we are. We feel like we are free and um you know you and I we have this academic intellectual freedom. We can talk about our work just like we are talking now there are a lot of people who work for even in take industry. They may be working for google and all these big tech companies. They cannot talk about their work to anybody else.

It's all secret.

It's all secret. So just imagine that's staying up. So they're spending more than half of the wake of time at work thinking and doing work, but they cannot talk about that work even sometimes to their own family members. So then what happens for them? A lot of people also do the same thing like um the person who is going and backing in a restaurant uh cooking at the boston with um taking trust and driving .

or nurses and doctors can talk about their patients of yeah and some people .

just don't want to talk about IT is so stressful they don't want to bring that stressful. So that's why I always say that from sunset until we go to bed during that time, we try to find time for ourselves. People say, this is me time.

The me time is essentially we want to truly express who we are, or we want to entertain ourselves. Because on the fireside chat is not that everybody was a performer, though also some audience. So we always switch. Our role, sometimes we are performing and sometimes we are observing. So that's what happens with me time.

So I love you. So um maybe social media time should be restricted, just maybe a small portion of that evening time because I would hope that people would also interact in .

the really constructive way. Or maybe you use that for connect to your family members who love or you can have some productive discussion.

Something so it's kind of interest. I think it's extremely because they think again, this this conversation about timer structure feeding is really a conversation about seti's m and sleep wake activity and human evolution right .

so that's right. Let's go back to this um uh nights because uh we we cannot make a common that maybe it's not genetic but uh this is where i'm still wrapping my head around you know these days there some um java studies where they're trying to look at night house to see whether there are some genetic uh lincoln and you know sometimes we always think, yeah if you take half a million people, of course you will find some outside that but going back to this idea that are some people more sensitive to light so that is likely that the same level of light, even in the same household, may make some people stay, wake late into the night.

Or as other people are more resistant to light so that they can go to bed early. And since light has become so prevailed these days and this to a story that we are talking about, what people going on campaign is we have removed that light. Um so there is some um evidence that people's light sensitivity, particularly the I P R G C of this intrinsic photosensitive retinal gangling cell or the simple speak, is the blue light sensors in our eyes. Um there seems to be even one log in a change in sensitivity as measured by pupil construction.

So for some people a small amount of artificial light at night could really shift their car clock, wake them. Yes.

i'm very sensitive .

to light at night. Yes, exquisitely sensitive to IT.

So then you like .

a teenager? Yes, in many ways i've been told this. Thank you. I think I have actually switched to using a red nightlight, but I should be clear, not a fancy high cost red light for sake of any kind of infrared, but a red party light, light.

And I find that was based on reading one study that we covered in an episode on jet lag and shift work, which was that IT seems to reduce the cortisol releasing properties of light at night to use red shifted light. yeah. So I just use a red light bulb, actually travel with one.

If I go to an arb B. R. Hotel and I switch a light, and I find that I fall asleep and stay and sleep throughout the night much more consistently, especially in when i'm in new environment where is always makes a disruptive to sleep.

Um it's made an enormous difference in the depth and duration of my sleep. And um because often times hotel lights you know in the bathroom, you'll turn them on and just you're just getting been and you're right, some people don't seem to to be bothered by that. I I I really struggle with that.

Yeah and in fact in tina is right up the puberty um there since to be I think that's when uh the teenagers become more sensitive, sensitive to light and and it's very is well known that the ten is boys and girls. They tend to stay away late into the night and they can stay up to twelve past midnight although they can stay up that late. That doesn't mean that their sleep schedule is reduced. Their body still needs the same amount of sleep as other team as also that's why they are more likely not to wake up at six thirty ty or seven when we expect them to wake up and go to school.

I have a question, and I ask every circadian related bio gist. I can come into contact with this, and no one one has been able to give me an answer one way or the other. But I grew up hearing that every hour of sleep before midnight was of more value or potency than the hours after midnight.

And indeed, I find that if I go to sleep at nine, thirty or ten P. M, I can wake up at three or four. I am feeling pretty fantastic and ready to lean into the day. But if I get the equivalent number of hours of sleep starting at midnight, I feel like complete garbage when I wake up after five, six hours. So is there any truth to the idea that going to sleep within three hours of sunset is somehow Better for our circadian timing mechanisms?

Well, um there are few things. One, you said that you are very sensitive to light, so I assume that you also avoid bright light in the evening as best as you could can then h what is happening is with absence of that bright light, your melanthon in levels begin to rise. Um you are prepared for sleep.

Um of course this is something that we cannot measure because measuring militant in and every one hour or twenty minutes um is very difficult. And there is no consumer facing uh product yet. Uh so it's likely that your your body is preparing very well under the dim light to fall a sleep.

And when you are trying to stay away and go sleep at midnight, then maybe from midnight for the first three or four hours, you were sleeping well. But then after that, a melatonin a level might be beginning to fall and it's not only melton's in your code, body temperature and the heart and everything is changing to make you awake, but the sleep debt that you have accumulated is pushing you to be in bed. So that is this tension between the sea dian aspect and your sleep that and um unfortunately you cannot have good night of restoration ative sleep for the second half of the sleep because of detention .

that makes good .

sense yeah so that's why um you know you are not the only one means there are many people who who experience that and in had a lot of people think that well this may be the way I sleep maybe i'm not um I am not designed to sleep restoration ably until you know I sleep one day just like the camping on trip and then .

they realize what what IT feels like to be missing you absolutely. I I want to make sure that we talk about the other aspect of fire, which is you had a paper that came out recently, very interesting paper, studying firefighters and time restricted feeding and firefighters. Would you share with us the general contour maybe in some of the specifics of of that study? Because I think very interesting for for sake of shift workers, but for everybody really to understand these results.

yeah. So let's go back to shape workers because this also related to all of us because I also said that each of us is a shift worker or has lived the life of a shift worker um and we have experienced how terrible difficult is um and now lets start with what is the definition of a shift worker um shift work like lifestyle.

There is no universal definition unfortunately but there are many european countries particularly if figure to international labour organization um then you'll find some references. Different european countries have slightly different definition which essentially points to if you stay awake for two or more hours during your habitual sleep time. And when they say habitual sleep time um they assume that we are just like you said, we are kind of program to sleep somewhere between sixteen P M and length day in bed and kind of wake up after five.

So the idea is if you stay if you're staying awake for two or more hours between ten P M. And five, and you are invest in some activity, whether physical activity or intellectual activity, you are not lying in bed and wondering, worrying about something, but actually working. So that defines that defined a shift work.

And you don't have to do IT every single day, even if you do IT once a week for fifty weeks, then that itself is enough to disruptive biology and metabolic behavior of brain function like a shift work. The reason is, as you discuss, when you change our external timing queue. So in this case, when you travel jet lag or or traveling across three days, three hours of jet lag will take um three days to um break set.

Similarly, if you are staying awake for two hours extra or if you are waking up two hours before your habitual wake up time, then we just don't get wake up and then be based in some activity in the dark. Most of us unmeant unless you are waiting a infer, we turn on light and light research of clock. Then that way, every time we stay up two or more hours, even for one night and for the next two nights, our clock is kind of trying to catch up so that we have for three days the day of the disruption and then two days following the disruption.

Um a clock is trying to catch up with the outside time serve clock. Our body is not on time with our clock. So that means almost for half of the week or half of the year, our clock is trying to catch up.

So that's the definition of shift work. So now let's come back to um department of level statistics. U S. government. Um they have not been tracking what percentage of people are doing shift to work um accurately because there many difficulties in tracking to but it's generally accepted that one in five working adults is a card caring shift worker card caring shift workers means their nurses and doctors, firefighters um and bears prodrives um that many in the service industry so that's one in five. So twenty percent of working adults then if we think about all the college students, just like I was doing and you must have done, um they're also deadlines.

granted grant deadlines.

We are also experience in experiencing the lifestyle le offering worker because were delaying sleep, even if you're delaying sleep by two hours for most of the collection and for five days and in the weekend you are trying to catch up, that's kind of IT c dian disrupt and going on. Then you take one point five or one point six million new moms um in the U S.

Every year when the child is born and that mother is a shift worker and actually that mother is worse than a ship worker because um you know you don't know what time of the night the baby will wake up and how many times and there is no weekend in motherhood so they're also living the life offering workers um we don't count many food delivery and h uber drivers, lift drivers are ship workers, but many of them we know that they live. So in that way within the actual number of people who are experiencing the life of a ship worker is um someone around people of the adults um population and at any given time. That's why it's also another point that you might have hurt from people that say, up I cannot do time rescuing because my schedule is messed up or i'd work in a different way and um that comes into play so that's why we thought, um okay, so we should try something on shift working.

Another point is all the one in five people are ship workers. They Carry this proportionately heavy bottom of disease, because almost all as related disease that we can think of for there is high blood pressure. Usually high blood pressure starts in forties or fifties, a high cholesterol um gastric distal problem india um chronic uh in flames of the colon and then even uh colon cancer in many cases and then of course divis um all of these are disproportionate to more prevalent ant amongst workers.

But then when you think about clinical trials, whether it's a drug or a lifestyle, often one of the top ten exclusion factor criteria is shift work. So people who are doing shift work, we exclude them from many of these trials. Ah one thing is most physicians and most scientists, even people who do ship to work, to know that their body and mind is so messed up that often time even medications may not help them.

So that side, if we don't try new medication on why to take the risk and we know IT may not help them. And then when IT comes to lighting intervention, whether it's um sleep extension, for example, we cannot do because they are supposed to stay awake and do their job. We cannot ask them to stay a sleep at night. And then physical activity and exercise some people can do, but some people are so tired after all night that they don't have the energy to do physical activity. And the nutrition again, most nutrient studies involved um the participants to come to the clinic and get them one on one or one or attend group sessions and they cannot come and they cannot have been sometimes come to the clinic visit um when people have to take drop blood and in fact there is another period, just if surprise them, healthy I perfectly Normal blood pressure, blood locked collection ol everything is Normal and I live the life of a ship worker just for five nights that means i'm sleeping less many five hours and even if I don't eat at night time, of course many shift workers also feel hungry and just for um to keep the world they eat um just out of five days my blood lookers level will read almost like i'm prediabetic well I I saw a study .

in polishing proceed of the national academy that showed that even uh hundred locks, dim light present in the room while people are sleeping with eyes closed can lead to disruptions in morning uh bg glue coast levels in directions that are not good yeah um one night so the faint clock in the corner even A A A nightlight that's too bright yeah could be problematic. By the way, folks, these effects are reversible.

So I whenever I say these things, I we had a lot of comments about all my godness what have I been doing for years but you know kids with nightlight, this is an issue yeah um but what i'm hearing is that one in five people are truly shift workers. In the classic sense, their jobs require they work at night or into the night and sleep into the day. But for more people are shift workers by virtue of the fact that they're tweet or working or watching movies at night even though it's not work and that they are stopping paid for that time. They are essentially Operating like shift workers. If we add those two groups together, would we say it's what A A third of americans I say .

half of half of amErica you take teenage because you know high school students and collections because again, going back to horatia, uh, study, because harasses also collected activity data from high school students and color students. And we have replicated that with high school students and school students in sunday ago that seattle and sd ago and this study now there are many sleep researchers. They have been collecting this data. And what do we find is um typically the high school students, they are going to beds around midnight color students at least the use as the students we found maybe one out of hundred who went to bed before midnight that reminds .

me that herodium glacier is just publish this really nice paper um showing that counter to what we believe students and others are the university wasn't ton piano I should mentioned where is very dark in the winter. Young people, these are people in their twins, are staying up later in the winter months compared to the summer months yeah which is totally counter intuitive if you think everyone stays up late in the summer, goes to Better or in the winter, but because of artificial lighting .

is exact yeah so another um means um I don't know that who are you monitored but my other suspicion, i'm not saying what that is true. In winter, we are more likely to consuming more coffee, hot chocolate in the evening, and that might also be delaying, uh, sleep onset.

Make sense.

So in that way, again, here is another thing which can be related to policy or practice and educational institute. So what happened during, uh, coit was everybody went to remote learning. Um the assignments became digital and assignments some mission became digital.

And there are many systems, online systems that are going to play. And by default, the assignment, some missing deadline, became midnight. So then now what is happening is I don't know about stanford uh maybe you are when you are giving assignment um when is the airline in night? So then most of us, most students they were try to cram as much as possible, try to solve as much as possible. And some midnight, midnight and IT will be really cool to go back to your system ministrant or to see is that so me the frequency lot of take the distribution of what time people are submitting the um assignment because we know um means when we submit our grand yeah so I mean.

you know you hear about the obesity crisis, crisis of metal olic disorders, not just in the U. S. But everywhere in the world. I mean, really striking. I remember going to a keystone meeting, scientific meeting in the early two thousands.

And there was a map of the united states that showed where the obesity rates were over thirty percent in adults and the entire country, because he was lighting up like crazy. Now IT would be the entire country. But there were these kind of zones in the middle that were almost have a weight of obesity, a colorado name, ly.

Idaho, at that time. Those are now also fAllen under the umbrella of rampant obesity. And everyone speculating, okay, is that you know is IT C O is IT um is this is that is a highly processed I am i'm guessing it's all of those things, including lack of activity. But one has to wonder, given everything we're talking about in terms made about disfunction, late shift reading, all these issues with light shifted reading and staying up late with artifical lighting, but there are not that could be one of the major factors in the social obesity crisis is likely.

You know we all say freemen fifteen .

that's right.

This cares are gaining piping pounds in their freshman year in colors. And um this is where I think as education professors um will be interesting to go back and see uh what can we do because another thing there's also becoming more and more common.

Uh for example I I give a six under the class meaning I just give two lectures and I remember when I started um fifteen seventeen years ago um that lecture used to be around one thirty P M or two P M in the afternoon and they said two and half our lecturer is done by five and for the last um before the pandemic I realized that they change the timing. Now the electra was starting at seven P M. So as finishing by nine, nine thirty P M and these kids they had to go and eat after nine thirty and studies socialized, fast chat and then to express themselves, like to feel free from assignments.

One are going to do that after they submit assignment, then they're going to do that. So also we have to go back and revisit this issue, say, okay, so for adults, for most of us who are working a day job, our deadline is five P M. In most cases right um means at least an university system. The person who submitted the grant of who is doing um taking care of my eyes be your air clock. They are all living at o'clock up for me, everything has to end by five.

I think for most people out there. So this raises a kind of macro scope c question, which is maybe it's not so much about restricting the feeding window, but maybe it's about feeding mostly in and being active mostly in the early part of the day. I mean, you know, I could imagine a time three, four years from now when it's when waking up early and going to bed within three hours of sunset.

Is the protocol which harness is all other protocols, right? You're going to exercise, you're going to do IT in that time. You're going to eat, you're going to do IT in that time. You going to socialize, you're going to do IT in that time. And in doing so, you're also avoiding a lot of the issues related .

to disrupt sweet. So that's why all these things that you said a time of serving is just one aspect of the sick dian health and these are all interconnected. And going back to the comment about um within three hours sunset as a that's good. But then what happens in a toronto or bank ver in winter time?

I guess you're going to bed very, very early, but also waking up very, very early. Yeah you know, one of the things that I hear all the time because i've always beating on the drama of getting morning sunlight, even if your cloud covers. People say there's no sun here this time of year, and I I forgive me, but there is sun.

Unless you live in a cave, the sun is just coming through cloud cover. No matter where you live in the world. Their sun, yes, unless you live in a cave, of course. So I want to make sure that we didn't overlook what was the major conclusion .

of the firefighter studied. So why we did this study was, as I said, there are a lot of us who are living the lifestyle of firefighters, of uh shift workers and shift workers are excluded from studies. So that means whatever we are learning about a lifetime le or even medications that may be beneficial for people who actually have a Normal schedule um but not for people who have a disrupted scheme.

And if you look up um clinical trial dog gov, there are more than four hundred thousand studies listed. And if you such, how many studies are on shift workers is less than a thousand. And then if you ask, most of them are to see what is wrong with ship workers like that.

So we know that ship to work increases our resort for medaba disease, cancer and even some aspects of dementia. But if you ask how many studies have done to improve the health of shift working alone, that's less than fifty means have to go back and check the actual number but it's less than fifty. So that's why um we are super excited.

Uh we thought um from sixteen to the perspective something to address. So this study, again, this kind of study is only possible because i'm at so can we are filled with U C S D. And um I can work with U C S D physicians to do this study.

So I collaborate ate with doctor pam tob, who is the director of cardiac. We have thirty in U C S D, and pam has many firefighters as her presence and we both know that the number one caused for death and disability on work for this is not fighting firework, just getting heart attack and um stroke. Um so I have a very high incidence of heart attack, stroke, and they are also highly prone to different kinds of cancer.

And IT may be difficult to ascribe cancer to disrupt on second an disruption because I also exposed a lot of boxes anytime. Fie bonds that smell fire is essentially smell of cause, and they are breathing, even if they have the um hood on a respirator. The student, so the idea was very simple.

We know that firefighters, a nearly seventy percent of firefighters in the U. S. Full time firefighters, as because there are volunteer firefighters and then full time firefighters, the full time firefighters, seventy percent of them were twenty four hours shift.

So for example, in sunday ago, they coming up their shift from a ten to a ten the next day, and they do a test on sunday. They do one day on, one day off, on of four cycles and then four days off and um but in some fire departments they actually do forty eight hour shift. So they come for two days two days of two days, two days off and then four or .

five days of thank you firefighters yeah .

yeah I mean um so that the idea was OK. So we screen firefighters and then fine firefighters who are um metabolite unhealthy, and then we will see whether they can actually follow ten hours time retiring.

Because the point is if firefighters can follow IT than everybody else should be, because with all their stress, if they can and this is again where I should also acknowledge the sunday of fire and rescue department because without their health we could not have even submitted the ground and at that time ah David behn, who is their health and wellness battalion chief he is the one who actually approached um because is very careful. He knew that the job that the deal makes them weaker in long term and can kill them in long term. So he was always looking for new solution so he approached us and then we said, this is the idea.

I said, well, I love this idea because we are not asking them to sleep more. We are not going to cut down the overtime or shaped or chance the work schedule. The only thing will be doing is asked them to eat within ten hours. And hopefully.

we can do this so consistently between the days that they're working and not working. yes. So that means if they're from A M to A M working the next, then they go home, then they're going to eat on the same schedule they did when they were at the fire firehouse yeah but while at homes, so they're not allowing themselves to to deviate from that yeah.

So we we whether they can do IT or not because the number one goal or the primary outcome and this clinical trial was feasibility, can they do IT? And then second was, if they do IT done, what happens to the blood sugar and weight and all other stuff? And then we started to study and we heard the next a hurdle and that um and a firefighters, a very, very tight nt community, and they want to make sure that you understand their culture and the best way to understand their culture is to live the life of a firefighter. So in million monogue with the fast doctor, see and then uh we had a dinner jian who is now in my school. He was this was quoting her at that time.

Um they have volunteer as so okay we'll go to the b gest fastest and in Sandy ago and we will live the life of a firefighter and the three ago fire rescue and the city um they all um agreed they reported for duty at seven thirty in the morning they are signed a bed in the station because all five stations do have some beds for five five fighters to rest and they have a signed bed so they are signed a bed um yeah so every time and nine one one called him and if that fire and that fire that fire engine was called then just like other firefighters, they had to run get into the gears, just the shoes and um a jacket and a helmet and getting this site and attend the call. Of course they are good. They side.

They just get out of the truck where there then come back when that twenty four hours Emily got ten calls at night that he had to run to. But there are more than ten times they um they got the nine one every time the nine one one called cam. And there is a bit that goes out all highlighters were sleeping, arresting to get up. Or if are doing something, they will look up to see which engine is called interesting.

So it's not just the ones that go out. It's everyone gets walking up.

Everyone gets walking up so that means night, typical night, they're waking up um ten, fifteen, twenty times sometimes. So they almost like um you know new moms are like firefighters because they don't have any idea what time the baby will try and for what reason also they are not. So similarly is five a and that's what everybody did. And the next morning wants to come back .

like now go easy. Yeah so so so .

then we did the study and we are since ally assigned uh, all the five fighters, we recruit her fifty firefighters. We assigned half of them to medicine and diet because you cannot do any harm, have to give them something good. So that's another thing that's no, we want something that we know works for firefighters.

And there was a meditation and diet study um so everybody was supposed to follow every day. And then half nearly seventy five of them were supposed to eat within ten hours. We did not fix the ten hours because we said, um you pick your own ten hours that you .

can stick to but IT has to be consistent from day to day. So if you .

start eating at nine am, you finished and then we said as we understand that there will be some things and you can take my be half an hour here and there and we'll see how many times you can do IT. And um what is interesting as how though they are all doing twenty for our ship, the moral less just to begin eating somewhere between eight, ten and eleven years and um they did not skip any meal.

They had their first meal or what we call breakfast, but IT was several hours after per waking up because they're waking up at five or six and the driving to come to work at seven, thirty or eight and eating the first male, say between eight and eleven and then the finished meal um ten hours later. And what we found is more or less most of them could stick to doing this at least five days out of seven doors. Um and then at the end of the study, when we look at um their health parameters, one thing that I said, we recruit everybody who can.

So that means a lot. Nearly one in three, five fighters are completely held. There are no sign of any um any illness, no hy blood pressure, hyborian, sugar of high cholesterol, depression or anything.

So since we have one third of the population who are already healthy and then everybody has slightly different conditions, some have high blood pressure, but they don't have high blood workers. Some, mary, has high blood lookers, but not high blood dress. So that is kind of heroin ious.

So we did not see big difference in wet loss or any way change between these two groups. Another thing is the firefighters actually run almost eight to nine miles when there are the job fixes as part of their um exercise routine. But then one thing that change significantly in the time to strating growth was a very called real deal particle size and particle number because this is something that we know is very low density property.

These are anthropic if we can manage them much Better than we reduce the risk across. So there's one parameter that changed in the timeless repeating group, even when you combine all healthy, unhealthy everybody. Now if we take firefighters who were beginning with high blood pressure, then we saw significant reduction on in their systolic as well as diastolic road pressure and the change in blood pressure.

Of course, we don't claim that in the munus cute. But when we talk about IT, some physician would get up and said that looks like almost there on a blood pressure lowering drug um so the extent of blood pressure lowering is equivalent to somebody taking A A anti hypertensive drug. amazing.

And then those who started with high blood sugar, of course, we didn't have too many type to do, but there are few predial and they could Better manage their lod lookers. And this is interesting because once shift workers become predated or diverted, they have more difficult than managing their blood sugar than non shift workers because they work schedule self will mess them up too much. Even if there are on many medications, they have difficult .

that's fascinating. And i'm really glad that you explain the study in such detail because I would have thought, you know, from reading the abstract and I did look at the data, but someone were to look at the abstract, they say, oh, firefighters are, they wake up in the mail the night, and there you throwing on their gear and going out to calls and do IT but panshin in correctly.

All firefighters are being woken up by the signal, which makes the firefighter population a bit more similar to the more standard population is waking up to the middle night to use the bathroom, getting on social media for a couple of minutes or flipping on the light. I am IT maybe not as severe as what firefighters are going, but we know there are blood sugar regulation issues related to those multiple middle of the nights wakings, especially if people are than staring at screens yeah. So I think it's really important that people were able to hear about the the deeper countour of the study.

Uh, I mean, this result of. Regulating blood sugar Better is really powerful. I get asked all the time i've got new kid or a shift worker, how can I do this morning sunlight viewing um what i'm hearing is that keeping a regular meal schedule every .

day this five, five.

five and seven or closed every day but we say try and get a really great nights, eighty percent or more of the nights of your life and on the other twenty present, hopefully it's for fun reasons a great party or something like that is a celebration of some sort that seems to me a great anchor point. When one can't reliably control their sleep wake cycle, does that mean that if somebody is coming off a shift work and they're very, very tired, that they would be Better off staying awake and eating and sleeping well?

It's uh yeah uh this is why we get on the no answer. So here the firefighters are twenty four hours ship worker. So that means and they have been working the shipped for very long time, so they have figured out.

And one thing is, yes, firefighters are different from nurses and health care workers who have to work throughout the night, and they are staying a way throughout the night. For as firefighters, they get opportunity to sleep. Then, even with their pen calls, they actually have opportunity to come back and go to sleep.

And in fact, when Emily and dinner they were in the fastest and what they observe was firefighters after day after um at turning a call, they're not going back and playing, are trying to wash the news or get discard. They know they will just go back and lined bed and switch of the light. So whenever they got any opportunity to sleep, they will try to sleep.

Then that way, their sleep day and sleep pressure during daytime is not as strong as a nightshift nurse or a truck driver was driving all night because they had they are staying away throughout the night. So when people say, yes, you found this and can you extend IT to other shift workers? My answer is no.

We have to go back and figure out. That's why we went to the station and figured out what would work for them. If I have to go and do this for the north is maybe even I will go, or our staff will go and figure out what is that work schedule, what happens to? They have opportunity to eat.

Do they have opportunity to even take five minutes break? What do they do during break? And all of these things come into play but here another thing is um I always said that in other times of feeding paper we see change and nutrient quality and quantity matter.

We also saw that somehow both groups inadvertently they um improve the nutritional quality because everybody was told to IT medicine died to increase the fruits and vegetables les in olivier and tax um slightly. And when they had to stop eating early, they also reduce the alcohol intake. This is very significant because many shift workers just to cope with the shift work that tend to depend on alcohol at night and caffeine the morning。 So they begin the day with, in an end, alcohol.

And now we can relate that many Normal people were not doing shift work. We also more less begin our day with many of us and with alcohol. And then when they reduced ed that eating to ten hours and then with significant doxy in alcoholic in the time treating group, but not in the standard of care or military diet group.

I certainly support that. We didn't episode on now call. I was shocked when I researched that to learn that zero to two drinks per week is essentially the threshold beyond which you start seeing health deficits, in particular cancer and metaphor disruption, sleep disruption and increased the anxiety when people aren't under the influence of alcohol.

It's pretty incredible how alcohol kind of escape as the the opposite of caffeine and therefore um not a health hazard. It's and here i'm somebody I have a drink every once in a while. Nobody deal for me. I can have IT or not have IT but it's just striking how alcohol despite extensive data that I can really disrupt alth even at three drinks per week, is just avidly consumed as if IT was kind of like food or caffeine. And it's really incredible. I want to make sure that I circle back to something you mentioned earlier because I know they are going to be a number of people that asks if I recall you said that provided that the feeding window is not shorter than eight hours, that men, women and children can use time restricted feeding.

I yes, what I say is um twelve hours.

twelve excuse me, twelve hours.

Thank you for that um because we did a study there is popular in twenty fifteen and again um behind many of our studies that is a story.

So we are publishing all these mouse stories and then I go to conferences and then of course they um some some people would give me a look saying, well, we must be doing something wrong with this just best day x law tumor DNA is because how come they are eating the same number of calories and not wait? Of course, by that time we figured out that addition. Mouse time repeating also changes.

They got microbial in a way. Now the mice may be popped out a little bit more fat than sugar than absorbing them. So one thing that happens in time sitting, at least in mice, the liver collection al metabolic to violated and violate exchange in the got changes because they got microbes on changes.

So this is a very nice study. Uh, when a major in power was, uh, in the lab. Now he has his own lab in U.

C, S, D. And he particularly ly did that. And we we even did bomb kilometer from the pop and my tab o makes from the book. And then we figured out that the excuse some some calories and then that Brown fair activity goes up. So there may be burning some of .

the extra .

calories magoni. But anyway, so you know, one nice thing or something about sock is if they say that your science is going well, then they will find ways to help you and this is yeah and um this is when bill roddy was our president.

He was the president of um half kinds for twelve years and then he was president and um that time he had started this innovative grant program uh which was founded by orin uh alone is the founder of welcome and was also a factor the U C S D. So he understand there are very few take leaders who actually spend some time in academia. So he understood the pain of getting grant money when you have some interesting idea or test some ideas.

And no knock on the nh. But i'll do IT anyway because I sit on study section for the nh. Me with nh wants to see proposals for things that are so certain to work that they're mostly done. And so really groundbreaking work can happen and does happen with an I age funding. But more often than not is IT is the a generosity of philanthropists like her when Jacobs s and other people that allow the really pioneering the new stuff, the cool stuff, yeah, the ground breaking stuff, the stuff that really.

no, i'm like I say, really matters IT. All matters is all important. Not making money from thin air and its taxpayers money. Uh, there is a little bit responsibility or conservative that, okay, so we should not worst tracks for money on in this .

guy kind of problem, not talking about politics, talking scientists conservative. They would be so careful with language. Now is pretty soon we're just going to sit and stare at one another at the microphones to stay, say so. So that's interesting.

So they so that we started this. And then what we did was we, I had awesome, great student, and we got this funding from our win. And also there are some any philanthropist. Ter, so actually the way we say yes, if you give me fifty box, then that fifty box towards goes towards buying the glove sun, a friend of deals for one post dog for maybe seven days.

So, so true. I think a lot of people don't realize that ninety nine percent of labatt scientists, just, they don't make me any money off their discoveries. And even if there is a patentable discovery, typically the the divide between the institution and the company that will have lunch put that to market is so slim in favor of the the others involved that scientists really do this as as work of .

passion labor I love so so we we came up with this um up my securian clock at that time and we took some um and lessons from tech leaders um particularly from amazon one click check out um because we thought most nutrition apps actually ask people to detail describe what they had go to their food library and and person size is not okay so we just sort got all of that we just as people to take a picture of the food, open the up one click, take a picture, second click and press save thirdly and when they save the picture actually came to our server did not stay on their phone and we asked one hundred fifty thousand six people who are not shipped workers, just regular worker or homemakers to be part of the study.

No student was allowed to be part of the study because we know that there's large active focus and we monitor for three weeks. And so here is some ones, and I want people to understand the support said, when somebody is starting to eat at the seven A M. And since the recording everything, we we got every single thing, even if they yet have a cookie, they had to take a picture, and they actually took picture because it's not IT become second nature after three or four days, that every time at something, even if there is a glass of water, they actually take a picture because we ask them take picture of everything, will figure out what IT is.

What is surprising was we found the media. So the median number of times people eat within a day twenty four hours, actually seven. So it's not, it's not that we are eating three times a day.

We actually snacked little Better than day seven times. And there are ten personal people. The top deal was sitting twelve times a day um and that makes sense in the tropic. Sometimes maybe i'll fall into that seven or eight before um I did this study because you know getting up having coffee with clean sugar is one and I had my breakfast that's two.

Then I came to love and I found that cookie, that three I went to a meeting and there was some cookie and uh something else uh, as another one and launched and then afternoon, somebody asked me to go out and have a meeting. And so if you think about IT is very Normal that we can go seven to eight. Times ten times. But then if we look at what time, say, I start breakfast, and as I said, we see that in many people theyll start seven o clock one day and seven thirty other day and eight fifteen the day.

Are they go back to six years because they had to get up early and go to work? Um so we took all these food data from three weeks and then ask, what is the time when your body system is expecting IT to eat because it's kind of average out is kind of thinking, okay, maybe for you, if you are eating breakfast and say someone between six, seven, thirty seven, forty five, eight, maybe you are expecting food around seven o'clock, let's forget about six hundred and there's an outlier. And then similarly, at the end of the day, somebody is sitting, finishing the last bite on the night cap, whatever you call IT, say, one at nine P M, nine.

Television, ten, eleven, twelve, thirty or one, let's ignore that one and twelve, thirty. But still we got some hundred and seven to eleven party for that person over three weeks time. So this is how we kind of figure out what is the likelihood that your body will encounter food. So when we do that, what we found was nearly fifty percent of adults in our study, eight for fourteen hours, forty five minutes, that window when your body is expecting food. So is easy to say that fifty percent of our dogs eating within fifteen hours or longer .

wo and and quite frequently.

quite frequently too. And then if we ask what fraction of our adults were actually eating the conventional within twelve honours, three meals a day or something like that was ten percent.

So this nacks is gone up dramatically. How everyone that defines snacking, the frequency .

of of food intake outside this breakfast, lunch and dinner, there are all these small snack there. And also a lot of people, the dinner is delete. And we went back and looked at, okay, is what kind of food before eating late at night and all the stuff.

And what came out interesting, which is very counterintuitive, is people who prepare their own dinner, they are more likely to eat later at night because are coming home and then they're taking some time to prepare dinner and then they are sitting down and eating or maybe eating next to the computer, whatever IT is. So what is kind of interesting that came out? Um but coming back to your point, that's why I say that nearly ninety percent of adults are eating for more than twelve powers.

So that means a lot of people can there is scope or there is enough space to reduce and eat with them. So as I said, all of these are interrelated. So when you think of our children, most sleep researchers agree that children and teenagers should sleep somewhere between nine to ten or eleven hours because Young children even piped to ten year old, this should sleep nine to ten hours.

Just pumping our growth and growing, growing.

And then the teenager was actually the um recommendation is they should be sleeping nine hours because if you take teenagers take out all these stimuli inputs to them and then remove homework assignment to everything and then let them kind of equilibrate to their homestays, what are likely how many hours are likely the sleep that turned to be somewhere between eight and half to nine and half hours? Which also means that going back to sleep, nearly ninety percent of high school students in this country are chronically sleep descried, because most high school students don't get nine hours of sleep on a regular basis. Maybe in the weekend .

proud I because of devices yeah on ipad and also as I said.

this new idea that midnight is your um assignment for mission time. I'll come back to that again and again.

I'm hearing that again again. So teacher is take note. It's an it's a very interesting idea as a way to kind of anchor behavior earlier in the day. Yeah learning to I mean public health h is complicated because people are incentivize by fear. But you get more bees with honeys as they say, right you know there the incentivising people to wake earlier, not necessarily with the sunrise, but wake earlier and going to a sleep earlier and eat within an eight to twelve hour window twelve .

if it's children.

That sounds to me like you know that all these health benefits are what I think you're going to incentivize people more than, for instance, this idea that well, if you don't do this, you're onna .

get to something I feel more hey. And so that's why I said that even if children are supposed to sleep for nine hours, of course, they are not eating during those nine hours. And we are not feeling children and putting them down to sleep because you know that cold body temperature will be high.

They cannot fall a sleep. So at least they should have the last meal one or two hours before going to bed because typically parents feed them and maybe give them a shower or but and then we've read the Better time story, sorts one to two hours before Better time of finishing food. Similarly, on the other hand, after they wake up, it's not that we are waking them off and then feeding them.

Hopefully we are doing that. So that's a twelve. Hers seems to be optimum and is not only i'm saying that if we put all the health recommendations together from pediatric than IT makes .

sense um fascinating. I have a question about structuring meal intake or food intake during the eating window. I have a good friend. Actually he's he's the neurosurgeon at neutral link now, but he came up through stanford and and he has a habit of eating of skipping one meal per day within a feeding window.

So I might be breakfast, lunch, skipped dinner one day, then IT might be breakfast, dinner the next day, lunch and dinner the next one. So it's not in keeping with the same start time always, but the end time is either going to be earlier or there's a gate. It's never later yeah it's never later.

Um what do you think about that as a strategy? You know in many ways, IT feels like that fits with the way that a lot of people's lives run. So sometimes for insensitive, i'm in the podcast.

I don't tend to each during the mild the day because IT makes me a little bit in the postman dual dip and energy. So i'll do breakfast well again at eleven. That's the first that's when I break my fast eleven ish and then dinner maybe a snack in the middle day but other days it's three meals.

So does that matter? Um overall, as long as um one isn't allowing the start time in the ending time to drift out is IT OK. If you go from twelve hours to ten to eight, eight, ten, four, twelve, as long you don't exceed that the brackets are you okay?

Uh so this is where the security an expert come in because if you are going um if you are moving that breakfast time or dinner time three, four hours essentially causing maybe a metabolite ET like you know in short term in weeks, months or maybe even few years, you may not see any change um by the same time, we don't know what is the long term consequences. One thing is we always think I will come back to this point again and again. We think that a body where is a marker of health, our body composition is a marker of help, is not always true because that they said issue reflux um feeling um you know having some .

pack of depression or anty yeah so those are the things .

that um we don't connect with our habit. And since the acadian and male timing, male structure now is a very new um field, um I think good studies will come out only in a few years because right now, if just going back and retrospect to be looking at some diet record, one day of diet record and trying to clean too much adopted, I think hopefully things will improve where people become IT IT will become standard to at least look for one week of diet record meantime and what they are eating all the stuff because um are now mouse dies also showing what the front loading couple hired a front loading fat of protein has benefit over. So I think this studies are starting. So I should not comment this good or bad.

I think it's great to hold off until then. We have you back on to this. Um I have a question about um fasting on the longer term and there is an near infinite space we going to explore two days of fast and one day.

But I know people that everyone's in a while, they just decide i'm fasting, they've been eating too much at parties or they're not feeling well or whatever. They just decide i'm fasting for twenty four hours and they still consume water and caffeine. They'll just fast. Is there any health benefit or detriment? Um you mention the circadian clock shifting effects, but if somebody wakes up on sunday and you know they you ate too much or they feel they too much or they don't like the food they ate on Sarah, they're not really feeling and they're just gonna into monday, is there any known benefit or um health detriment to doing that kind of thing?

Yeah they actually reach literature on a this complete fast and impact. In many religion, people practice complete fast as a way to close their body and um people love in that there are benefits to that so in fact the every other day eating uh in mouse model or even in humans are also initiates some studies were done um there many health benefits and right now they're even fasting clinics in germany where people check in and under strict supervision and then they do complete fast. Or maybe a small bowl of soup which has hundred, two hundred kilogram, that's all I get to IT. Sometimes two, three days, four days, five days, even they have gone up to three or four weeks .

for sake of weight .

loss is that way for many different things and um they come out pretty well healthy. Of course they under uh supervision make sure that are getting mico micro nutrient, the micro nutrition, vitamins and um electoral des as so those studies are pretty solid. People have uh object that and in fact there are even idea that fasting, this kind of fasting can have huge impact on brand and people may come out of treatment resistant depression on or something. But you know, so those studies are very difficult to do. There are only case of one here and there that we hear once in a while but hopefully in future will see um whether the depression, anxious, the mental health aspect will benefit from pasting because now as there is more and more evidence that as this god brand access and whether the presence, substance or the microbes mm changes in the guard um if they can affect brand and maybe a long term fasting, periodic fasting a few days of low calorie ET back to back um will be interesting to see how IT impacts brand health .

very interesting what are your thoughts on fat fasting where people trying to limit their blood lue cos by a only eating mainly fats, mainly healthy typically dailly healthier fats, OS olive oils and not some animal fats perhaps but as a way to keep blood lucas low and also time restrict this that goes back to the kind of low carbon hydrate what are your thoughts on that as as a general strategy for health? I mean, IT combines or of two general themes that are out there, I think both of which are beyond data are still in coming, that restricting the feeding times that can be beneficial as well as keeping overall blood blue coast lower can be beneficial.

Yeah I think there is too much uh impressive now and blood to spiking uh um we don't know um this kind of eating pattern, for example, means where essentially telling pantry as the okay is, are the islet cells that produce insulin. It's okay you can take um take a break, go on vacation for for a months to two or three months.

Um my question is that would be interesting to see what happens to those islets because uh, for example, we know that if we the sues are on use, our muscles there is muscle atrophy, muscle become weaker um we don't know what the long term consequences of this very low by the diet where you are not essentially engagement the IoT cells, uh periodically uh, what is its impact? So if there is no impact, maybe so kind, maybe did. Because, as you know, many people virtually work computor and a guide, the researchers themselves, they find IT very difficult to stay in through chiozza. Because the true, that is, in a diet is consuming less than ten percent of calories from carbohydrate.

very many from protein. A lot of people think geog ic died allows them to a massive amounts of meat and that's not totally the case. Just one clarification for people such in was referred to eliot cells of the pancreas, which are the ones that manufacturing insulin.

Um so the question is whether not taking in low levels of blood blue coast by wave, a low cover hydra diet, that those IoT cells are going to shut off their production. Very interesting. I think the livers, a very plastic tissue, I mean IT tends to um react very dramatically to to lifestyles changes. yes.

So that's why impact to see what happens means we know that even muscle issues, very ample people who become bader than they lose some muscle mass. But when they come back and exercise, they gain IT back.

So be interesting to say um what happens in these people who are going through long term kilos and a diet and of course once in a while because of um so celebration or something else, if they don't have access to food or something happens, they may consume um some sugar. Some blockers will Spike but it's not that every Spike is bad. I mean, the reason why we have insulted is for good reason .

for that spite.

the buff of that Spike. And also people also say that well, if you have insulin produce or instance like growth fact, those are really bad and you should aboard that. I think there's a little bit .

extreme and I mean that in some growth facto museau um maybe even cognition. So yeah .

yeah and IT also goes back to say interactivity and and all that two people get really. Excited about how to reduce them to activities and repaired and all that stuff. So this is where um again from c dian point of bill um I asked people to think so. Too very popular drug, like molecules or drugs that people think will increase langevin or metformin, which many people agree, not all will come to consensus that IT activites in the kinds or the sensor and the cells that sense that your cells are fasting OK so much for in kind of activity. So that kind of, you can say, although IT may not be science fiction accurate, the, you know.

posting in a pill, so sort of mimics fasting. yeah. And the thing i'd lump in there with met form and is that burberry is kind of the poor man's met t form and it's a tree bark extract .

that also dramatically lowered blood glue code yeah yeah and IT may makes kind of that posting and then reformation um also kind of reduces interactivity. And people have shown that a formation and make form can extend mouse lifespan. And in improved.

So now let's go back to the calorie restriction study. That man, in calorie restriction, people are giving food as a lumpsum, and they are essentially doing time restriction. The mice were doing time restriction.

If we think about IT during daytime, when experimenters are coming to the by varium, they might still be sleeping and fasting, and they should naturally have high level of emptiness if they are truly fasting, and they should also have low level of m interactivity, because am to respond to insulin, and I should go off at night. So my suspicion is, in many of these experiments where the mice were allowed to eat a libitum, even Normal standard chair. Now we we know that as mice get older, they actually consume little bit more food during daytime.

which is the equivalent of human like night time. Meeting, we know, is an issue. I didn't realize I was more than issue as people age. But yeah.

so we don't know about that. Listen, mice, because, you know, we can put the mice in calorie tary look at every single by the meeting, how much eating. So I guess IT was natural to see that researchers found that there is some etho activity during daytime when the mice were not supposed to have tro activity because they should be fasting and since they ate little bit um they were snacking during daytime um amp kind's activity was not at IT speak, so giving metformin kind of mimic the fasting said and reducing intro activity by drug like rap mission also kind of mimic some aspect of the casting state.

So my suspicion is um since these studies were done always in mice um who are supposed to be in the fasting state and both them to sara promise an ambiguous activity or my form and kind of a mimic that fasting state, that's why we have sent those benefits. And it'll be interesting to see if that experiment will be done in humans in long term because many people are very excited about I know there is am to a long term metformin um study and a lot of people are actually dreaming good amount of reproaching off level that can get their own. Uh so that's my um curiosity and not saying where there is good or bad or that there is science or not.

There's something we'll be interested to control for and see um because recently I I saw and one of my again uh close friend and colleague scripts catia lamia uh SHE did a very simple elegant study people should have done in from the field. He took mice and then measured their blood. Looks are different time of the day and in fact just like human blood lookers our blood broker is fluctuated a little bit uh he saw that to them and then in every two hours or three hours um on different days of course they gave the same dose of meat forming to mice and what he bound was a different time of the day my form had bury dramatic change in brook's reducing ability.

Um so which means that even if you take platform in and give a different time of the day for the mouse or even for humans in very long term, of course in this mice, these mice were not diverted or anything our health mice to begin with. So in long term we might see um benefits um that are very different. So this brings to this idea that well maybe met forman say at the end of the day evening matching may trigger that fasting state much earlier and end up dizon um has met found in the beginning of the day, may not artists from longevity perspective i'm not talking about divis typed to the this year um so the same thing with them to um is am to going to have much Better impact if taken during evening and morning before meal. So um these are my thoughts that go along with all this fact um story that we talked about.

Do you take platform in your burberry?

No I haven't taken although you know I have close friend and colleague um Robin shaw is now the director of cancer center at so extensively works on M P kis and its mechanisms and um um so it's always fun to talk to him he he's a fan .

yeah i've taken burbling ing before. I ve had two different very distinct experiences with them. First of all um burberry when injured ted, with carbo hydrates and particular carbohydrates to have a lot of simple sugars.

definitely. I know this because I measured my blood. The experiment allows you to flat out your blood blood coast response. So you know, in some sense, if you you know there is this idea, if you're going to eat up particularly big meal or sugar y meal and you don't want to get a massive blue coast rise, you burberry or meat form metford is prescription that I went with burberry because as far as I know, that works as well.

at least by healthy people.

Yeah, for healthy people. That's right. When I took burberry and did not ingest large amounts of simple sugars or cover hydrates, along with IT experience, profound hypoglycemia felt like complete garbage for about eight hours.

And I had one of the worst headaches of my life because, which makes sense, you you got a blood sugar crash. So if you lower blood, your blood sugar, when you already have fairly low blood sugar, you're not interesting carbo hydra. You can really bottom out your your blood glucose. So just I say that as a for two reasons. One is kind of a cautionary you know and the other one that um when you think about the biology, these compound that makes and and I think that um and I did not pay attention car key and .

effects yeah yeah yeah I think you know when I joined sock around that we know on I want is the kind of the um big leader in in metabolic and he works on nuclear home on the factors um these are the master regulator metabolic and Normal cells, cancer cells and many other and what was interesting was in the first few years rounded a very simple experiment um he just looked at what time of the day this nuclear harmony sectors are turned on a gene expression level and some at courteen level and he found that almost all of them um have A C dian pattern at least in some tissue so um he went to that length to say even that c dian is metabolite and meta lisp method an the reason why we have a syrian random is to have a delhi hsm in food seeking behaviour anything and also go through a period of time when we should be fasting.

And then on the other hand, all the metabolite gulati also have to follow the rule and almost all metal regulators, everything that we can think of connected to megabyzus, macro, eurex, protein, carbon fat, they should also have a second, the modern cycle to a line or missing. So, for example, of hard oxidation, been opposite phase with feeling. 嗯嗯， you know, in the tropic at that time, I was kind of amazing to see wrong, could force a, of course, is smart up to see, and pretty, that this is going to happen to see a dian pill. Because at that time we are thinking of the super athletic nuclear sleep wake cycle. And we are not thinking too much about or something about sock being at sock, because where fifty p eyes really crammed ed into two awesome buildings, sand with open live structure, so you bump on to each other hand talk to so.

and with an ocean view.

some view. Yes.

it's an amazing place. I was luckenough to have an advent position there when when my lab was at ucsd and IT is an amazing place doing incredible ground, greg and work, which of course includes yours, is such an I am clear now that um we have to have you back on for another series of discussion, seriously speaking, if if you be so so a kind and willing to do that. I want to thank you for several things.

First of all, for your taking the time today to sit down and discuss these incredibly interesting ideas in detail, you know, much of what we talk about on the podcast is a obviously grounded in science and and often, but not always as actionable. And so much of what we talked about today is actionable in the sense that many people are already doing certain dimensions of these things. Some are not.

Some are hearing about IT. And considering IT, you've given us dozens have listed some out dozens of tools and considerations based on whether not people are engaging in shift work or not. I think a lot of people are gonna alizay that they are shift workers yeah even though they didn't think they were um because of their nature of their habits now IT to light and activity and so forth.

I absolutely love the firefighter study because of its relevance to the general population. Also not another nod to fight a fighters and shift workers everywhere. Thank you. And you know I think among the colleagues i've known for several decades now, you really are one of a very small few who manage to do both animal studies and human studies, but also animal studies with a very clear eye and a pointer tod h human health and um that such a vital and rare thing, especially in this day of um extremely competitive funding.

So I want to thank you for your time today for the knowledge you share, the actionable aspects of that knowledge, the science that you're doing in your laboratory. We will provide links for people to learn more about you and of course to go to the APP um so people can um engage in some of the science directly. And of course you have several wonderful books now that we will also link to, both of which i've read in a wonderful particular to the book um the first book but also a book related to diabetes and um so for diabetics and people interested in meta lock and and blood sugar regulation on there. So you on behalf of myself and my team here at the human man lab podcast and all the listeners, I just want to say thank you so much. Your time is valuable and the fact that you you share with us and educate so many people is really a gift yeah.

Thank you. And actually likewise. There are very few scientists who have taken this leadership role that you have taken to uh common community science to the public is not easy um because sometimes you have to down to simple sound back to the point where the scientist and also h that may not be right but we always had to keep in mind that we are always living in the dark is of science because the reason why I say that this is not my court actually this is from one of my scientific get up similar from uh scripts yellow says think about IT ten years ago what what you thought was right and the best has already changed. But one thing is uh the security m and aligning IT to uh our internal clock to our habit is very important. And as you mentioned, uh we have uh mysterium clock up, which is research facing, but we have also just all of this down to five or six timing component and we have a new up on time health, get on time health to people .

access that through the standard APP stores.

yes. So now it's have a little and and after uh good sorry uh apple lighter and we want to see um how because people always think about fasting, but as we discuss today, feeding, fasting or eating pasting and activity and sleep a kind of intellect and we have to kind of baLance both of this. So that was the idea behind this own time health program and um thank you.

And because uh, what you are doing is immensely necessary, particularly these days when science is moving at a very past face, there are a lot of ideas coming out. Sometimes something can be very confusing, and you spending your time to communicate science is exceptional. So thank you.

welcome. Days like today, york is IT down in in talk to brilliant colleagues like you who are doing the important work that really matter so much. And so as you mentioned a moment ago that there's a lot of darkness and confusion out there, but I thank you for being one of those whose shining light .

thank you.

Thank you for joining me for today's discussion with doctor searching panda, all about circadian biology and time restricted feeding. If you're learning from and enjoying this podcast, please subscribe to our youtube channel. That's a terrific zero cost way to support us. In addition, please subscribed to the podcast on both apple and spotify.

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