Jeff Cavaliere: Optimize Your Exercise Program with Science-Based Tools
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Welcome to the huberman lab podcast, where we discuss science and science space tools for everyday life. I'm dw huberman and am a professor of neurobiology optio logy at stanford school of medicine. Today my guest is jeff caviler.

Jeff cavelier holds a master of science in physical therapy and is a certified strength and conditioning specialist. He did his training at the university of connected cut stores, one of the top five programs in the world in physical therapy and sports medicine. I discovered jeff cavalier over ten years ago from his online content.

His online content includes information about how to train for strength, how to train for hypertrophy, which is muscle growth, how to train for endurance, as well as how to rehabilitate injuries to avoid muscular imbaLances, nutrition and supplementation. I've always found his content to be incredibly science based, incredibly clear, sometimes surprising and always incredibly actionable. Is therefore not surprising that he has one of the largest online platforms for fitness, nutrition, supplementation and injury rehabilitation.

Jeff has also worked with an enormous number of professional athletes and has served as head physical therapy and assistance string coach for the new york mets. Again, the content that jeff cavalier has posted online has been so immensely useful to me over the years that I was absolutely thrilled to get the chance to sit down with him and ask him about everything from how to train in terms of how to split up the body parts that you train across the week, how to integrate strength training and enduring training went to stretch, how to stretch. Indeed, we talk about nutrition, we talk a bit about supplementation, we talk about how to really avoid creating imbaLances in muscle and in neural control over muscle.

One thing that's really wonderful about Jeffery, he really hasn't understanding of not just how muscles and bones, intendance and ligament worked together, but how the nervous system interfaces with those. We talked about the mental side of training, including when to bring specific concentration to the muscles that you're training and when to think more about how to move weights through space and think more about the movements. Overall, i'm certain that you'll find the conversation that we held to be immensely useful and informative for your fitness practices and also for how you mentally approach fitness in general and how to set up a lifelong fitness practice, one that will give you the strength that you desire, one that will give you the aesthetic results that you desire, one that will set you up for endurance and cardio accused health, basically in overall fitness program.

I really feel this is where jeff cavelier shines above and beyond so many of the other pets and fitness so called influencers that are out there. Again, everything is grounded in science. Everything is clear and everything is actionable.

And while we do cover an enormous amount of information during today's episode, if you want to dive even deeper into that information, you can go to athletes next stop com, where you'll find some of jeff programs. You can also find him at athlete next on youtube. There you will find videos, for instance, like how to hair or heal from lower backpack, something that I actually followed directly long before I ever met.

Chef has over thirty two million views, and that is not by accident, is because the protocols there again are surprising and actionable. They relieved my book pain very quickly without surgery. Immensely grateful for that content.

And IT extends into everything from, again, hypertext, y endurance and straight training and so on. Again, it's athlete stock calm as the website athlete nex on youtube and also athlete on instagram. The huberman lab podcast is proud to announced that we've partnered with momentous supplements.

We've done that for several reasons. First of all, the quality of their supplements is exceedingly high. Second of all, we wanted at a location where you could find all of the supplements discuss on the huberman lab podcast in one easy defined place.

You can now find that place at live momentous ous dotcom slash huberman. In addition, momentous supplements ship internationally, something that a lot of other supplement companies simply do not do. So that's terrific, whether not you live in the U.

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And a good number of them that we've talked about. Some of the more prominent ones for sleep and focus in other aspects of mental and physical health are already there. Again, you can find them at limo mentis comet slash huberman.

Before begin, i'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and researchers at stanford. IT is, however, part of my desired effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science related tools to the general public. In keeping with that theme, i'd like to thank the sponsors of today's podcast. Our first sponsor is athletic Greens. Athletic Greens is in all in one of vitamin, mineral, probiotic drink.

I've been taking athletic Greens since two thousand and twelve, so i'm delighted that their sponsor in the podcast, the reason I started taking athletic Greens and the reason I still take athletic gres once or twice a day is that IT helps me cover all of my basic nutritional need to make up for any deficiencies that I might have. In addition, IT has probiotics, which are vital for microbial om health. I've done a couple of episodes now on the so called gut microbial and the ways in which the microbiome interacts with your immune system, with your brain to regulate mood, and essentially with every biological system relevant to health throughout your brain and body.

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Again, go to athletic Greens dock comes so huberman to claim the special offer of the five free travel packs and the ear supply of vitamin d three, k two. Today's episode is also brought to us by element. Element is an electoral like drink that has everything you need and nothing you don't.

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I started using the waking up up a few years ago because even though i've been doing regular meditation since my teens and I started doing yoga edra about a decade ago, my dad mentioned to me that he had found an APP, turned out to be the waking up APP, which could teach you meditations of different durations, and that had a lot of different types of meditations to place, to bring your body into different states, and that he liked IT very much. So I gave the waking up up a try, and I too found IT to be extremely useful, because sometimes I only have a few minutes to meditate, other times have longer to meditate. And indeed, I love the fact that I can explore different types of meditation to bring about different levels of understanding about consciousness, but also to place my brain and body into lots of different kinds of states, depending on which meditation I do.

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And there is excEllent scientific data to show that yogananda and something similar to IT called non sleep depressed or nsd r can greatly restore levels of cognitive and physical energy even, which is to a short ten minute session. If you'd like to try the waking up, you can go to waking up dot com slash huberman and access a free thirty day trial. Again, that's waking up dot com slash huberman to access a free thirty day trial. And now for my discussion with jeff caviler. Jeff, such a pleasure for me to have you here.

I'm glad to be here is amazing.

a long time consumer of your content. I've learned a tremendous amount about fitness, both in the weight room, cardio nutrition, things that i've applied for over a decade. So for me, this is meaningful. And my goal here is really to ask a bunch of questions to which i'm interested in the answers, but also for which I know the audiences really curious about. So one of your montreal is, know if you want to look like an athlete, train like an athlete. And I think that's something really special that set aside what you do from what a lot of other very well qualified people do.

And in terms of the use of weights and resistance, whether not its body weight or weights in the gym or police versus cardio, you know, in terms of overall health, esthetics and athleticism, is there way that you could point to, you know, the idea that maybe people should be doing, you know, fifty percent resistance training and fifty percent cardio? Maybe it's seventy thirty, maybe it's thirty seventy. And and here i'm talking about the typical person who would like to maintain or maybe um add some muscle mass, probably in particular areas for most people supposed to just overall mass.

So they will talk about that later. And people want to maintain a relatively low body fat percentage and being good cardiovascular health. What's the sort of control of a basic program that anybody could think about as a starting place?

Um I think is like a sixty forty split, which would be leaning towards way trading strength in in the. And then you know the conditioning aspect be about forty percent. So if you're look at IT over the course of a training week, I mean, five days in a gym would be a great tasks of ously in the gym.

IT could be done at home, but three days strain training monday once on friday, conditioning, tuesday, thirty two days. It's a pretty easy round about way to split that up, of course, depending upon training goals. And as you said, the esthetic goals like that will shift dramatically. But if you wanted, see the benefits above. That's probably the the effect of dose for train training and the effect of dose for conditioning at the bare minimal level, again, being a much Better performer condition was going to want to more than that.

And in terms of the duration of those workout, what's your suggestion? I've been way training for about thirty years, running for about thirty years and mainly for health, and have found that if I work hard in the gamer at resistance training for more than sixty minutes or so, very hard for me to recover. I start getting cold.

I start getting weaker from workout to workout. But amazingly, at least to me, if I keep those workouts to about ten, ten minutes of warm up and fifty five, zero minutes or so of really hard work for resistance training, and I keep the cardiovascular work about thirty to forty five minutes, I feel great. And I seem to make some progress, at least some place and workout from workout to workout. Yes.

I mean, it's those are good numbers because those are kind of numbers that we usually preach. We try to keep our workouts to an hour or less if possible. Now depending upon the split that you're following, if you're enough total body split, there's just to be more that has to be done in a given amount of time that again, if you're training primarily for strength that could pull along the work out because along the rest times in between sets.

But in general, when you're not focused on that one aspect, but the overall health picture them, you can get the job done in under, under an hour. And again, I always say on top of if you want to look like an athlete, train like an athlete, is you can do train long as you can train harder, you can do both. And I really believe that the focus for me, I have a busy life, a lot of other things that I do believe or not.

And it's like I I want to go hard and I want to go get out and I find that my body also respond to that. I think a lot of guys body response to that and early as you start to get older, I think it's the it's the length of the workout that actually causes more problems than the intensity of what you're doing, particularly if you're warmed up properly. Like you said, I found personally that my warm up has had to become more initial part my workout than an ever has before.

I never I could get in the gym when I was twenty, and i'm going on to right over. I'm going the one set two, and I am ready to go now. I never do another work out, warm, upset for any other other exercise I do the rest of the day.

That's not that's not sure anymore, you know. And I found that as long as i'm willing to sort of give myself a little bit of warm up, the intensity is not what bothers me. I'm very much in control of the weight that I use.

IT doesn't bother me. But if I start to go pretty long, I start to feel AI and I start to have problems. So again, depending upon age, that also plays a factor in the length. But again, I think everybody can achieve on a standard program, can achieve the results that they want within an hour.

Terms of split, you mention split. And so for those who are unfamiliar with this, a term split, it's really which body parts are you training on, which days seems almost everybody follows a weekly work out schedule. The body, of course, doesn't are about a week, right? There's no reason thing that once every seven days or twice every seven days make sense physiologically.

Just the body doesn't work that but that's the way life is structured. Um i've seen you discuss you know three days a week whole body workouts. Um i've heard of split like a pushing one day, uh pulling another day legs another day, a day off, repeat.

I mean, so many variations on this. What are some general themes that we can throw out there? And in order to avoid the the huge matrix of possible, you have some wonderful contact. The point those and we will, in our caption shown notes, will link out to some of those.

There are different ways to design split, but in terms of giving people a logic of how to think about splinting up body parts, what's governing the split? what? What are the rules in the logic that dictate a split up?

For me, the first rule is what you stick to IT, right? Like you, because there are split. I don't particularly like full body split, actually talking to the Jessie about the ideal day. Like I don't necessarily like to have to train everything. Now, of course, the vision will come down for a muscle group.

But if you don't like to do that and you actually don't look forward to your work out because you're dreading having to do everything and feeling maybe too far by the time to work over or the fact that those journalists do take a little bit longer and delt fit into your schedule, I don't care how effect of the split is. A split not done is not effective. So you need to find one that fit.

So maybe you go into an alternate of option like a push table legs that you mentioned. And that could be done either one cycle through the week on a monday wednesay friday split, or could be twice in a week, so actually training six times where you repeat that, you know, pull push legs, pull push legs, you know, you know, however, you want do with either a day off and between the three days or at the end of the six days um and again, that actually impacts your schedule. I broken that down before words.

You know if you put IT in between the three days is good because you're giving yourself an extra rest day in between. But IT starts to shift that day off every week as we rap around for those guys that we're choosing seven days scheduled out of convenience in our heads know IT starts to mess with that off day. So others like to just keep her predictably that sound on sunday in train six days in a row um but that's but that's A A A Better way that maybe group similar muscle actions together, which I think I I definitely prefer that because if i'm going to be training you know polling movements, at least there's a syn nery between them and I feel like i'm looking to achieve one goal that day.

Um and then I mean, quite honest, you can go back to the road split days and those still work affect there's a reason why they worked in the past like I think that science shows that there smarter ways to do them these days like you can you can come back and hit a related muscle so you can do, let's say by steps on one day and then come back two days later and do back realizing again synergy gy between the exercise there your best are going are resisting later again so you can figure out ways to make that work with. The thing that I think is is effective there is that tends to be one of the one of people like the most because they can go in and get their pump. They feel good that it's pretty solely focused on one muscle group.

Is that the definition of a bone gear towards strength? Anaesthetics, really? Maxi zing, yeah. Chest.

probably more more atheistic than strength. Yeah.

but you have bro, right? Yes.

but here I am a science guy, and I could appreciate the benefits of a prosperity, especially good again. Like what to what to what end? Who whose whose glory are we trying to achieve here there or or s you know, like, I mean, if if i'm applying my standard and my goals or even like athletic ideals, but they just want to get in shape, then it's perfectly fine to do to do a bro split.

In that instance, if you're sticking to IT again and you're seeing the results that you want to see from IT, but they're able to, you know really keep their focus on one muscle. They get to focus on like look, a lot of people struggle with the the way of a an exercise feels until they are second or third set, like they don't have that proper capability to can lock in an exercise. So spending a few now I sets in the same exercise, but then doing another exercise the same helps in the dial and a little bit Better and get more other training yeah.

that is a really interesting, I think important question early on when I started resistance strain, which was sixteen high school, I gotten touch with, and I was learning from mike manser teachers yeah. And Michael was very helpful, very, very helpful.

We got to be friendly and no internet.

I um you I paid by western union typing to to send him some money and then he got on the phone with me. And my mother at the time was like, why is this grown man fall in the house? And he gave me A A very straight forward split, which was shoulder's arms one day he had been taking two days off and then training legs and then two days off and then chest back.

And that's a variation of both split to we're sort of breaking them down that way, chest them and bias, you know yeah.

and he worked very well for me. I probably would have because of my age, I think, and because I was, I was untrained, I think IT largely on train. I think I would have grown on on many different programs. But IT worked very well for me, eventually, just made that in every other day, things shows arms day off, legs day or two off, because we hit legs right at least for me i'm not training the next day and then i'm not doing much of anything athletic the next day and chess you back and repeat and so on and the reason i've found that helpful, I almost always recovered between workout um the the six day a week program of push pull legs push pull legs to me seems exciting um from two standpoints one is at least with my recovery abilities or lack of recovery abilities.

I can't imagine coming back feeling fresh and the other one is if I if i'm in the gym more than four days as a week, I really start to fatigued the whole psychological experience of IT whereas I in there three or four days a week, yeah in other's if I put a day off in between each workout. I really want to be there and I get in there with with A A lot of fire um and i'm also doing other things on the off day. So I think that i'd love that you mention the split that you're still too and then you can bring the intensity to because I think that that's really important.

I sometimes hear about two a day training i've done to a day training twice in my lifetime times. I got sick two days later. Yeah that correlation not cause uh you know but is there ever instance where two a day weight training makes sense for the non drug assisted um typical recovery ability person? I actually .

I think that makes sense in some scenario, but IT doesn't make sense. Practically a lot of people scheduled. So like if you could break down, let's say you were gonna do even some version of of a total body session or maybe like you're going to do a an upper, lower split, right? You can do an upper work out and do the entire changed the pushing portion of that in one session and then come back into the polling session later on at night.

If you had the opportunity to the thing that you benefit IT from, there is the freshness of focus. Again, like something in my head is sacrificed. By the time you get towards the latter half of whatever work out, you're in to the same point you may be before, like when you start to approach at fifty minutes an hour mark, you are either losing focus, you're losing energy, you're losing contract availability, you're losing something.

And if you're relegating whenever IT is the pulling portion of that to the end of that workout, something suffers. So okay, and that if they realize happening that switch them up the next time you do the workout, where the pulling portion of the upper workout goes first and then the pushing goes later. So you're at least not just containing that cycle, but at the same time, if you were able to split them up, you get a chance to to take a break.

You can have that fresh to focus again and you can actually get a Better effort in because again, I think effort drives the result. So the effort is not compromise that you should be able to do that. But systemically, is that a problem? And I think that this is a problem for a lot of people is just hard to it's hard to red the engine up a lot of times in the day, you know you warm that thing up once to that car in the winter, you get to go on one.

You're lucky. Okay, I drive at the rest of the day, but you know, you put in the garage and try to start the next day. It's a problem. So, you know, Young people can get away a lot more than than older people could.

You know what? I've never had a strong recovery equation, but if I stick to this one day, often in between, everyone's in a while, two days in a row in ing maybe because I have to travel and I want to make sure I get all the work out and kind of thing, I seem to be okay. I like your example of warming up the car.

Spoken like a true east coast, east coast, those of us from the west coast of the like. We both from the the east coast and me to just get IT and certainly from from europe in terms of the mixing up of cardiovascular training and resistance training. Um same day, different day, which one should come first, which one should come second? If once main goals again, everyone listen, has different goals.

Are most people like either maintainer, again, some muscle? I don't know many people that want to lose muscle. We maintainer against the muscle, usually in specific locations on their body. Most people would like to be a bit leaner or a lot leaner. There are a few people out there that are either naturally lean or don't want or actually just want to gain weight. But assuming that people want to get lean or put on some muscle or maintained muscle and want to have a healthy heart and a healthy brain, which basically requires a healthy cardiovascular system, how would you incorporate a cardio accused work into the overall weekly regiment?

Um so again, I think that you the bare minimum was probably twice, so we can turn of cardiac cur if you want to have some ones of condition. But I think most people who actually need IT more or want to pursue IT more than that, I need more. I'm to do that. So um at some point, IT can't just be relegated to a day off or a day off from the from the wait training work.

So at some point, that has to occur on the same day in in that case, I just like to put IT, if that is you're not your primary goal, but you're looking more for the just the overall picture on the extension, putting muscle on in certain areas, then I would put IT at the end of the work out because you don't want anyway compromise the way training work out. And as we have all of reference times already, the intensity of those workout is important. And we know there's a strength component to those workouts also that is going to you be a helpful stimulus for growth.

So the conditioning, the cardio that have done prior to any training and work out likely going to impact your ability perform at your best. So unless it's just done for a quick little warm up in the beginning, but then it's not sustained long enough ready to be benefit for cardiac conditioning. So I just like to know put that at at the end, realizing that even if my effort level is lower, my output is lower.

If it's still placing a demand on my cardiac output to get that conditioning effect because i'm fatigue IT still has the demand of my car dcc output. So it's still achieving its goal. But I didn't fear with my main goal of being able to increase .

my performance in the gym IT and interview the form of cardiovascular training. I've seen you do a number of, have to say uh very impressive uh high intensity interval type work so burpee type work or push shops with you know with chunchuse mixing to them anywhere people can see your videos to I didn't describe those in the best way but um rather than on the trade mill out jogging for thirty forty five minutes. Is that because you prefer higher intensity, higher heart rate type um training or because you live in called connecting um and you don't want to be out jogging on the roads in the midwinter um what .

I think all the above I mean those are factors from a personal level. But I think that if if you are, if we could blend function across these realms and not have such a deLinda between this is my way training and this is my conditioning, but figure out a way to to blend them together, I always think that you've ve got Better opportunity to get that more well rounded result.

And I like to kind of mix up that straight conditioning work and also some of the football drills that we we have some high expectations for guys that come to our programs, like to just do some foot work drills like latters, like latters or relying drills or something. I know what what happens. People become intreated and interested, like, I never haven't tried this since high school, you know.

And they become interested in just the chAllenge of IT. And as we become almost distracted by the chAllenge were now like fighting ourselves, conditioning. You know I always think that's an important part that sometimes you ve got to draw people in um to to show them what they might be interested in and from the output or the effect of IT.

I just think that when you're able to blend some some, you still maintain some of that strength training into the exercise. As you mention that some doing some kind of a push up P M in there is there is a an annabi a component to that, that is going to be helpful. Um that then rather than just walking or just just um not not to say that, that isn't an effective means for strict cardio conditioning. It's one of the ways that we've had for the centuries, you know had to do IT. But I just think that if we can blend IT, then IT becomes a maybe a little bit more interesting and you get some of those cross over benefits and doesn't become so segmented in terms of what we're trying to do.

I love the idea, bring some mental chAllenge and some desire to improve a skill while conditioning. That's not something that i've thought of before, and it's simply because I ever looked at makes sense. Me is my sister who is reasonably fit, although almost always trying to get her to do a bit more SHE always asked me, what should I take and I I believer in supplements up for certain people in certain instances, but I keep telling you know, the behaviors are going to and nutrition are going to have the greatest outsides positive effect.

And SHE love s things like dance classes and things um or kick boxing these kinds of things which so makes sense that if you can hook somebody on the conditioning aspect, the skill as back and can trick them into doing more cardio and so to speak, that that's terrific. Also the neuroscientist in me just has to say, forgive me um that anytime you're engaging the you know the two sets of motor ons, ones in your brain, the upper moderns and the ones in your spinal cord, anytime you engaging those upper promoting irons, which are for deliberate a well controlled action, you're doing a great thing for your brain in terms of brain langevin. So um i'm now I need to incorporate some actual skills in the mind training um going back to way training a bit.

One of the most important things I learned from you so over the years was that when training to increase muscle size to really think not so much about moving weights ts but more about chAllenging muscles yeah um I also heard this from um my friend bend but costi who is very well accomplished he was about and now he's into other aspects of fitness teaches fitness but don't move weight to chAllenge muscles unless you're in trying to power left or something that works which i'm not immensely helpful. But the other thing that I learned from you that I combined with that was this idea that certain muscles will grow Better and get stronger much more easily maybe even will recover Better because of our ability to contract them really hard. And this, what I call the cavalier test, which is, at least if, if I could paraphrase abit suffering tive, if I can, it's always the bye.

Use the car for the bye. P if, if you can flex your bye to the point where IT hurts a little bit like you almost els like crap or a cramp, you can flex your cap to the point where really cramp up though, but almost feels it's nodding up. That's a pretty good indication that you're going to be able to.

Stimulate that muscle well underway. Ad, if you're doing the movement properly, right? And that's the feeling, actually aim for each repetition, maybe even throughout the repetition. For me, this completely transformed my results. And this was, as I think, maybe five, six years ago that I first heard this from your body parts, that, for me, lag behind that I thought, maybe genetically weren't onna work for me immediately just started growing, right? And I was getting stronger and stronger.

I thought, this is really something so much so that I dedicated a portion of my research, along in collaboration with another group, to try and understand what's happening in these upper modern irons in the brain that can engage the muscles even more and that it's not just about progressive or overload putting a pump into the muscle um that is really this mind muscle connection is a real thing when IT comes to predicting results and that you can get Better at IT. So um forgive me for paraphrase your incredible content around this is made a tremendous difference for me and the number of other people that I pass that along to but uh what can you first while how did you arrive at that um because we hear about the mind muscle connection but I really heard IT first from you. How did you arrive at this kind of crap test? The cavalier test has all call IT always wear when people name things after themselves in science, when other scientists can.

So there is now officially, the cavalier test is whether or not you can cramp the muscle in the absence of load, just flexing IT to the point where hurts a little bit. That would be a in a good indication that you could grow that muscle. Well, how did you come up with this?

I mean, I just honestly something that that made sense to me because during my work out, even as a as a Young kid just starting out like I always wanted to know, what is that working? You know, that people ask that question more than you think, like what is this supposed to work? And a lot, I don't know you ever noticed.

But like when people ask that question, if they are being trained by a trainer and the trainers say, we'll just do this, do this exercise and they'll show you how to do IT, but then theyll say, but what is that supposed to work? Where am I supposed to feel this? right? People, did they just inherently ask that question? A lot of people will.

I was one of those that did that, and I asked my question now because I know what I was doing. But just because I don't know, I wanted to know what was supposed to be doing the work once you do that and you start to seek that out. And so okay, the backup is what supposed to be doing the work.

Then I want to make sure the buy up doing the work right. So then I would just sort of really like tweet the movement to make IT do more work or feel more uncomfortable, get a stronger contraction, knowing if that supposed to do the but IT wasn't til P. T.

School learning a well flex of the elbow is the brake and the bias in the bus responsible for. I learned other components of IT, but all I wanted that was to bring my ARM up in a curl, what is supposed to do the job, so I would seek out ways to make that happen Better. And when I was able to do that, I could feel the stronger contraction.

And I just I don't know what I I was no visionary or I just felt like I I knew that that was going to be Better for me if the muscle trying to grow was being stressed more effectively. So when I was um attempting to do this across different exercises, I would notice that what I could do potentially on a curl where my arms is up and you asked me to flex my bye p that position I couldn't do if I was not in a concentration girl or I couldn't Carry over to a cable girl. And that shouldn't really change right because the function is still largely the same.

They're still allow flex. They're still super nation. Like why am I am not able to do with there? And that's when I sort of include into me that like you're my muscle connection and not just you're mine with one muscle, but on every exercise matters and that varies from exercise and exercise. And even if you don't gain muscle size from doing that, although I think it's very hard that too, especially for not used to doing that, there's a term I like to call muscularity, you know, which is a difference, right? Is the level of sort of resting tone in the muscle that improves dramatically.

You can learn how to just start to engage that muscle Better, the muscularity that the resting tone of that muscle is harder, is more, is more, uh, and attention is is more, is more alive you and that's all driven from being able to connect Better neurologically with the muscle that you that you're trying to train. I've talked about a lot. Inefficiency is really what you're trying to seek in movements when you're trying to create hypocrisy.

When gold, when strength is your goal, efficiency of the movement is what you're looking for. You're looking to have muscles tied together and work well efficiently, the chest, the shoulder, and try set to get a borrow off of your chest there in the best press. You're not looking to make IT a very inefficient your leverages for your chest to try to grow your chest in a bench press.

You're trying to let the whole package come together for a great to output. But when you're trying to go and create muscle, hyper chopin or even this muscular that to talk about, you need to seek ways to make you feel more uncomfortable, right? If you don't feel the discomfort, then you're doing something wrong. And I struggle to this day on certain mother groups to still do that, even knowing what i'm trying to work. And knowing with the goal of everything on preaching here is very difficult for some muscles and certain people to do this on certain muscles but as you mentioned, practice does help in the more you become your consistent and deliver with what you trying to do, the more than of a result you actually get.

It's couple of really a poor boy sid likes IT to um delve into further. Um first of all my hunch was always that the muscle groups that grew most easily and that I could contract hardest without any. Um the first time of the cavalry test got ten out of ten.

We give you a ten at ten scale. You know, I could just like isolate those muscles since them grow them easily. I mean, y're certain bypass, I want to say which ones, because IT doesn't really matter.

Ad, I always thought like if I just did push ups, they would grow. And these muscles are far away from any the muscles be involved in push ups even though I like that i'm doing pushover correctly. Um you'll tell me if i'm not um but some of that I think is genetic and some of that has to do with the sports that I played when I was Younger.

So I swan M, I played socket ice skate board, yes. And then later I boxed. And so the muscles involved in the sports were always very easy to engage later when I went into the gym.

Yeah ah so I guess that perhaps a call to parents, you know having kids do a lot of dynamic activity. Um seems like there might be a good idea. The other thing is this issue of a muscularity.

I so glad you brought that up. There are and I have to imagine a large number of listeners who don't want to get bigger. They don't want to take up a larger clothing size, they don't want to take up more space. In fact, some of them would like to take up less space, but they want that quality that you're describing, which is that know from time I see you here more in the um here i'm started typing a bit but with kindness um you know you heard from women who haven't wait, train to say I don't anna get big often sometimes they do but most women that I ve helped wait, train or talk you about wait, train say I don't want to get I wanna tone right and I think what they're referring to is this quality of muscularity.

This idea that at resting or at close to rest or anytime on reaches out and grabs a glass, that that the muscles almost look like they're kind of twitching and the skin, and yet it's not surround rap skin anatomy chart type skin, right? So this thing of muscular or resting tone, you know, has a physiological basis. So I think it's how readily the nerves, our the muscles, and you're saying that by learning to engage the muscles more actively, the resting tone or muscularity can improve. Have you seen that both in men and women? Yeah oh yeah and and do you think this is something that takes um upkeep, maintenance or that you you know once you developed that animal you can just kind of let IT coast so .

I think like everything keep IT requires upkeep you know user loser. I do believe firmly, but like I think that it's the the development of the connections can be harder than the mainland of the connection uh, as I said, I still struggle to this day myself with a unnamed muscle groups also you know.

But like there's there's there's just certain um areas that are harder for your brain for whatever reason to this develop that that and at that type of the level to create create that extra strong contraction. But I think that is with proper dedication and focus, I go right out and say, you know, caves is one of the areas that I know I don't necessarily have a great connection with. And I also obviously must not care so much because I don't put in the time and effort to create that connection as I could.

Um so I think what might happen is, you know yeah there could be a struggle there, but then with what struggle comes this interest you like skirt, i'm i'm a cafe not and i'm going to do anything about IT, you know so I think if you put the the required effort in and the time and repetitions that you will develop that. And once you do develop IT, it's gonna stick around a lot longer than I would have you not investing any time into IT at all, you know not requiring as much of that. But I mean, I I don't know like you know you mention now when you train, it's like you're you're just this is part of how you train now like you're going hard.

You're trying to you know really forced contract. You not just moving the way I say from point a to point b, but you're like trying to contract the way through that range. Um that is a mindset that I try to.

Put into what everything i'm doing unless, of course, some focused on the strength exercise where i'm just trying to lift a great to amount and use all the muscles together. But when the goal is inefficiency for hypocrisy, I am really trying to create that contraction and is just part of my training. So I guess you know that for consistency sake, as long as i'm training is happening, you know, is if I if I get away from training, this not happening all.

But you know even there I probably, uh, another embarrassing admission, probably you will mindfully do IT throughout the day, even when wait in my head, you in certain muscle groups over my ABS, my ARM or my something, i'm doing something just a sort of engage in muscles. And I do think that some of that sort of A N A practice actually helps. By the time you go back into the gym, you just kind of keep that, you keep that that .

connection going IT certainly obey all the rules. Plasticity know the fire together, wired together. Montreal, which is the word of my colleague Carola shat um hold true for all aspects of neural function, including nerve to muscle. So this flexing throughout the day, or the the delivery isolation of of contracting a muscle throughout the day is without question engaging your own plasticity. And if you were to do fewer those repetitions, you're gonna less engagement of the nerve to muscle connection.

I can say this with a smile and and with confidence, because one of the first things all neuroscience students learn is about the neuromuscular junction, because it's a really simple example of where the more times the nerve fires and gets the muscle contract, the stronger that connection gets receptors are brought there is set at center. There's a whole bunch of mechanisms for the topic of another um podcast. But um basically that practice throughout the day is um makes total sense and works.

There's no there blame. There is no science behind that in terms of you know the application of IT. You do IT when you catch yourself doing IT you time the time now. But IT is definitely something that's easily done directly and you want up. And I actually I think in in a recent video when I did talk about um growing your arms by just improve your improving the connection. Not that that connection itself is applying any load or or resistance that significant to create overlook for growth, but is the development of that connection that I then take back with me into the gym at a more effective level that takes every exercise .

I do there and makes a more effective that sharpening the blade yeah speak um yeah certainly obeyed the laws of of nerve to muscle psychology um want to just touch on a couple of things um if the goal is to chAllenge muscles and one is dividing their body into IT let's say you know three or four days a week play or so or maybe up to six um how do you know when a muscle is ready to be chAllenged again i've heard OK every forty eight hours as protein senses is increases and then we've get into this and then IT drops off.

But Frankly, if I trained my legs hard, I can get stronger from workout to workout, or at least Better in some way. Work out to work out, leg workout to leg workout, training them once every five to eight days. If I trained them more often, I get worse.

So whatever that forty eight hour to seventy two hour thing is, somehow my legs don't bey that, you know, or maybe something else is wrong with me, but i'm sure there are many things else wrong with me. But um how do you assess recovery at the local level, meaning at the level of the muscles? So and getting Better, stronger, more repetitions at that and then the systemic level, the level of the nervous system. And i'd love you to tell us about the the tool that, again, I learned from you, which is actually using a physical scale, because IT turns out this is that I will let you to what the tool is. But that too is also actively being used for assessing cognitive decline and cognitive maintenance and cognitive unction in people with .

mention I make little sense, make total sense. I I I so regarding the the um the first part of the question like you know how do you how do you kind of dictate when a muscles recovered? So I do think that what you're experiencing is, is totally real, uh, that different muscles recover at different rates.

And i've always been so fascinated by this concept I talked about internally with with my team. But like I feel like what we really need the holy grail to training is going to be when we're able to crack the code on an individual basis, when a muscle is recovered, and that is going to dictate its training schedule. And the fact that you might have a bay step that could be trained, you v via pulling workout or read the best of the dk, work out, forget to split at the moment.

You may have a bice set that's able to be trained, that can be trained again the next day, you know, and then the next day, and then maybe you mean a day off after that, but like, you know, and that that can vary from personal person for sure, and I can vary from muscle to muscle in that person over the course of time, as you mentioned, because the systemic recover is going to impact all those muscles anyway. But let's say you're systemically recovering. Every muscle itself is going to have, uh, A A recovery way.

And I think what's fascinating is that when you talked about before, we like to train this week, or we have like the way our mine looks at training, well, if that was the case of the bye step, that bioethical a slave to the rest of your train split in. Like why does IT have to be also at the end of every eighth day, or, you know, or whatever, when IT might be Better to something much more frequently in your legs are also being thrown into that mixing like mensa concept, where he's like a training you know one set and be done for fourteen days. I mean, you know there's there's there's such variability between muscle groups and you you're linking them all together.

Um I I think that coming back in using muscle sourness as a guideline for that is, is one of the only tools we have in terms of the local level. You know we don't really have you being able to measure, let's say, A C, P, K levels inside of the most would be amazing, you know at a local level to see how how recovered that muscle is. But that becomes fairly invasive, at least to my knowledge, that becomes fairly invasive.

So what are our tools? I mean, I think that at the basic level, that's the one that most people can relate to and easily identify and then use that as a guideline. If you're training when you're really sore, it's probably not a great idea and it's probably good indication that that muscle is not recovered.

But at least hearing what you and I are saying here might be a comfort to the person to say, yeah, IT is possible that is not recovered just because forty eight hours of the recommendation and just because research points to muscle protein syntheses needing a reticulation. Oh maybe maybe you're not necessarily there for that muscle you there um so it's all really interesting stuff. But as far as the the uh the systemic recovery, I think there's a lot of ways people people talk about resting heart rate measured in the morning, all different kinds of of um you core temperature and things like that, that might become altered in a state of uh no recovery.

But grip strength is very, very much tied to performance and recovery. And when I was at the meet, we used to actually take grip strength measures as a baseline in spring training. All the time, obviously, is a baseball player.

You're grip in a bad, your pitch, your grip in a bolic. You know, gp, having good grip training is important. So we would notice somebody had a very weak grip. Is this a good vocal point of a specialized training .

component for this every day with those guys?

Now we would in spring training, we do sort of a baseline entry level measured and then we would measure IT throughout the season, maybe once every two weeks or three weeks. And and you know the idea there was to to manage manager recovery, measure the recovery. Um I just gave IT away, you know to determine overall your group trained this pretty highly correlated. So we have found that with one of those scales, those old fashion bathroom scales, that, like the bathroom beyond that, you can get with the way, almost impossible, I believe. Just and I were searching for the last scale to put in that video, and we almost couldn't find one because everything is like digital and every yes, i'm like the old fashioned .

dial controls like old there's a huge market for them .

in old phones.

I need to keep your phones now in thirty years that the lame phone so .

you I want up um you finding one and great tool for just freezing the the the the the scale with your hands and seeing what type of output you can get a and I think we we all can relate to this when you just visualize imagine the last time you were sick or you or just try this and next time you wake up in the morning, you first wake up in the morning.

You still gog, try squeak your hand trying to make a fist as hard as you can you guys that they're angry your fist because IT won't contract as hard as you know I can. You don't have the ability to just create the output. And that is because that state you're still sleepy, you're still failed.

You know you're you're not even awake the whole level at this point. Well, that is the that is still the a uh uh an actual phenomena that happens that you know A A lack of recovery or lack of wakefulness or what everyone to says is going to lead to a decreased output there. So when you start to measure that on a daily basis, you can get a pretty good sense of where you're at. And I think when people start to see a drop off of temperament or so or even greater of the a group output, um you really should skip the gym that day because I don't think there's much you're going to do there that's going to be that, that beneficial even if IT is the data train legs or whatever day is.

I I love this tool. It's simple. It's low cost. If you can find such a scale, I guess you could also find one of those grippers that.

And you do this in a very non quantity ative way, but Better would be a scale. You could actually measure you how hard you can squeak this thing at given time a day. Uh, IT draws to mind just a little neuroscience factory in the world of scaean n.

neurobiology. One of the. Consistent findings is that in the middle of your nighttime, you'd wake people up and theyll say, do this test. In the laboratory, they use a different apparatus, was essentially the same thing. And in the mill, the night grip strength is very, very low.

Yeah and you know midmorning grip strength is high, and as the body temperature goes up into the afternoon, group go higher, higher, that drops off at an rythm and group temperature. You probably want to do this more, less the same time each day you going to use IT. But if I think it's brilliant and um in its simplicity and its directness to these upper motive neons, because that's really what it's assessing. Your ability again, it's about the ability to contract the muscles hard. If you can't do that.

you're not going again effective work. They I mean, there certainly are more sophisticated tools to us as A P T. That we have uh handgrip t nomos.

And we can measure one side at the time to we not really getting a little bit blinded by the fact that both hands were freezing into that scale. And I don't get really your left, right comparison, but even at that level, that can give you a little bit more detail. But that comes at the cost, pretty expensive devices. But if is listen, if you are an athlete, the two hundred, three hundred boxes costs to have one of those would be well worth you know, the ad and investment well .

and i'm sure some of our listeners want one two because there are a lot of tech geeks out there. Um not tech industry gives, but you like like .

tech gear.

What's IT called again as a handgrip died and a and gripped done the west coast version um thank you will put that in the shown. It's also um I think recovery is key. We always hear about sleep.

You grow when you sleep and incidently your brain, you stimulate learning when you're awake. Obvious sleep. But the reordering of neural connections happens and sleep.

This is why sleep is the way to get smarter, provided you're also doing the learning part. Sleep the way to get stronger while you are also doing the training part. You've got some really interesting ve put out interesting content over the years in terms of even sleep position.

One of the major changes that I made to my sleep behavior is to not have the sheet tucked in. At the end of the day, I tell you this had a profound impact on several things. First of all, my feet have always been the end of the stand, broke them a unch. They and I noticed when I run, I get chm splint and and then I started know that my feet sort of, you're the P. T.

They are kind of floppy in the, as if I was pointing my to slightly all the time at rest if I was and I realized that based on listening to you previously, that my sheet were rapped tight, not hotel tight thing in the hotel, and I started releasing the the sheet at the end of the bed yeah, and I also started some to be Alice work, front of chins work essentially changed everything. My backpack from running my since disappeared. My posture improved, although I my audience will tell me that is still needs improvement there.

Five or ten people that I i've actually had chairs senta male dress, very nice chairs I so i'm trying i'm trying there um but this is fascinating right um the position that wants sleeps in um i'd fortunately have never had any shoulder issues not come with. But maybe you just talk talk us a little bit about sleep and sleep position for the sake of waking position and movement is this, I think, is a very unique and very powerful way to think about sleep. This podcast has done a lot of episodes, keeping the room cool, getting sunlight in your sets, that how to get into sleep. But you've talked about physically what positions might be Better to sleep and so please, please enriches yeah .

I know first of all that you know some people's opinions of of that type of content is that you know you sleep in the cut the position that most comfortable to you ensure that you're sleeping. Oh, great. I understand that we all wanted sleep.

That's the goal. When we put our head on, the pillow is actually fall left and wake up in the morning and that that what will happen. They had a dream. But you know, beyond that, there are certainly physical components to sleep.

That that is why a lot of times people wake up and say like that you can incur pretty serious injuries and sleep people will wake up and have like a dollar that did not bother them at all, be home the next day or even for weeks after because of the one sleep position they put themselves in in a poor longed way and they happen to have a deep sleep even through the discomfort um that can do actually some some damage. So it's understandable that the body can incur some strain and stress if you're sleeping in the wrong way. One of the things I say, right, the bad is sleeping on your stomach that doesn't really have many benefits.

You know you you're putting yourself into a position that is depending upon the the the orientation of your your mattress or how many pills you're using, what you're basically putting yourselves into, uh excessive extension spine, which for most people isn't very good if you if you're disk patient um I that might be helpful you know for for real in the desk. But I mean for the most part um your hands are then usually not at your sides, but they're up under your arms. So you've got them into sort of interrogation over elevation in your head.

Is this not a great position? You also have to cry your neck for one side of the other order to breathe or face down straight to the pillow so I would skip that one. There are some people that are total belly sleepers and I and I would just say, listen, I don't think that is the most helpful long term way for you to sleep.

Try to adopt a different position um sleeping your side often times is is also brought along with that the legs and needs coming up towards the chest for along inflection. Listen, we're doing enough for that during the day. Height height like IT just is reinforcing you.

And as we said to you, let's say you trained that day, you're just reinforcing muscle shorting overnight where the body is healing and ying to create some you know changes in your body. Um one of the reasons why I recommend stretching or static stretching prior to the bed, people don't really do IT at that point because I could take minutes five minutes. No, it's good to sort of try to establish this longer length temporarily priority going into a state where you're going to be not moving and recovering and and creating new uh, changes in the muscle.

So um you know that kind of I don't say IT doesn't rule out the the side sleep sleep could be very, very helpful for somebody that has happened or h other other conditions. So again, it's not at all or nothing approach, but it's just is something that you need to pay attention to when you are on your back like you are talking about and your V R wedge underneath ath a tight sheet at the end of the bed。 And most of us, unless we consciously are pulling them up, don't prefer our beds that have really shed at the end of the harder make the bed in the morning, right? So it's like you're gna want to have them tight.

Well, i'm saying as you experience you know, you're gna have this this uh prolly plan reflection that's going to likely lead to shorter you know cabs over time um because you're lacking all that length for that long period time that you could have. If you just loosen up the sheds and allow your feet to just hang out where there are now the resting position of the ankle, not enough of functions, is going to be still in some player of fashion but not being driven down and pulled down into that position. Um and I think what happens actually is people who get uncomfortable that way, even in their sleep, will shift away from that by turning the onto stomach. So there is definitely an impact of the body position and sleep and figuring out the best way that you can still sleep, of course, and get your rest but have a mind fly towards what is doing to your body and choose the one that least, uh, a brave ve to your body is the way you should go terrific .

and again is really helped me and um um I A big believer based on good science out of stanford and elsewhere um that you know as much as we can be nail breathers and sleep, we probably should be. I don't know if you've done any content um yet about your tapping the male shot with some medical tape. But yeah, the benefits of nasal breathing and sleeping are pretty tremendous.

But IT takes a little bit of training what people do and the training is very simple. It's a piece of medical tape. So again, a topic for another time.

I'm glad you mentioned stretching. I was going to ask about stretching a little bit later, but let's talk about stretching. When is the best time to stretch for particular types of results? And maybe you could define some the different types of stretching.

You just mentioned A A little bit of um would you call light stretching or okay, i'm completely naive here on stretching. So let me just say I can think of stretching where I hold the stretch and really trying um lengthy in air quotes folks. I don't want the P T jump in all. I don't know what IT is, but nutrition and the P S, online, or really they have got pitch for both ends.

That's a is a recent evolution, I think for sure. And nutrition is much. But the P T have become a little bit angry these days.

I see what I always say. What feelings of powerlessness comes aggression? Remember that folks. So um in any in any case um they're stretching where you trying to consciously um length in again in air quotes the muscle i'm not yanking on the limb or bobbing up and down. Maybe could define the different types of stretching for people. Maybe give us some rough guidelines about whether not to do IT cold or warm before training after training at seta.

So yeah there's obviously there's a lot of different types of stretching. They could get even to P N F stretching and things that are a little bit more um you know niche but like in general the two basic forms of stretching or stretching and passive stretching and your you know your dynamic work and in your passive stretching is done with the goal of trying to create an increase uh in um the flex ability of the muscle.

So whether you're actually increase in the length of that muscle, what you know more so what you're doing is increase in the resistance or decrease in the resistence of that muscle to want to stay at a certain. Level of flexibility. So when we can sort of take the breaks off and allow that muscle to to allow us more range of motion, we're inherently in increasing flexibility without.

And so you having to increase the length of that muscle that is usually done at a time far away from your workout because they have shown where this type of stretching done prior to an activity and IT could be a like a structure activity like like lifting or IT could be a little bit less structure, like competing a sport in a in a spontaneous type way. That there is a period of retaliation tion that is needed after doing this because you're disrupting the intense relationship of the muscle that causes you to not necessarily be able to rely on these i've talked about before, stored motor ingrams in your mind. And in terms of this is the pattern for how I swing a golf website, you know, and now introducing a little bit of flexibility or add of flexibility, arrange, because of the stretching I did before IT takes maybe a whole or two or three to match up again.

Oh, this is, this is what he's trying to do, that golf wing thing I that I remember red again, like is not remembering the every component. Like I have to be by right respect. Ten degrees I have to my elbow and I have to break.

Like your body stores these patterns for mother efficiency. So and when I have to start matching up that stored pattern with what's feeling knew because of the increased range, I can impair performance. And again, I could happen even a gym.

Work out where you're talking about your first, second set there set um where maybe the repercussions are as big because i'll just do a few extra sets. But in performance, if you screw refer three round, you plan P, G, A, T, know your six over after three, you done know. So I think that matters there as far as the dynamic.

So we relegate that as I mention. I sort towards end of the day, when it's not going to impact performance, but even maybe have the additional benefit of creating the the feeling of length or the increase or decrease in resistance to this length. Um at a time when I know my body is going to try to tend to heal and heal shorter, never longer, but heal shorter. So if I can introduce a little bit of that extra a length or or decreased resistance to that length, it's a Better time to do IT. So I think we promote A A Better recovery um if I wanted started interview .

stretching later in the day um because I am intreated by this concept of heel shorter yeah so part of the healing and recovery process means a shorting of the muscles this is the tensing up sleep yeah could you abate just a bit on that and then start to break your flow .

but then to continue basically you know has been shown as that when when the repair process must to repair from that, say, string training during the day they repair process user results in a muscle that is slightly shorter rather than increased in length is that is your muscles prefer to sort of you know ratched their way down into that that a contraction and then maintain that that that more comfortable link tension relationship.

So when you're sleeping IT IT tends to air on the side of shorter rather than lower when an ideally, we don't really want that. We want to maintain as much of that length because with more length, we actually have more leverage, right? That muscle has more leverage to contract.

If IT was all the way contract, you know you really can't obviously know generate much force in a muscle. Let's already maximum contracted. So I think we we want to do something that we whatever we can, whatever little weapons we have, an arsenal that could allow us to do this prior to sleep. And again, it's just making A A A conscious choice to do IT a time of the day that makes a little bit more um dynamic. Stretching is really not done for that purpose of trying to create any type of of feeling of uh act or or increasing the the potential length you of the muscle, but more so the readers of the muscle perform and increasing you expLoring the ends of that range of motion in a more dynamic ways. You're not hanging out there and disrupting that line tensions relationship was just sort of touching the ends of those barriers so that when you feel movement again, IT feels loser IT feels more ready and and obviously the same time warming blood flow, all the benefits we get from just warming up in general. So like no, that's that's a series you probably seen in a bunch of times, but like no leg swings and and butkis ks and large walking lunges and all types touches to touches all those kind of drills as active stretching drills or you know lunging with rotations of the upper body to try to get some thassall spine above to those are the drills that people will do prior to training that are both excited atoms in terms of just the nervous system, but also helpful for just the general warm up the body because the blood flow, but from a muscle ready in the standpoint, not in pairing the performance, while at the same time expLoring the increased ranges. Because, as you know, the first told touch you do is not as high as the last to touch you do.

He doesn't .

have to touch.

No touch attempt, right?

right? So those are going to improve with each subsequent rap. And I think that what people actually like you, when you can see those those actual changes from rep one to rep seven, you just feel ready.

You feel more a alert, ready to go on your work out. So the dynamic type of stretching um and I mentioned earlier on like what i've had to do to sort of increase my warm up focus. I think that's more of what I try to do these days.

I try to be a little bit more alert to the fact that my body is not ready. I was when I was working with the antonio Brown. I remember like he would spend twenty minutes, thirty minutes on all dynamic work, and i've never seen name, but I spent that long on the dynamic work. But like he said, he just didn't feel right and ready to go unless he did a lot of that. And I mean, you know his his dynamic struction routine would be a work out for most everybody you know it's crazy how much he did.

These pro athletes are amazing and you've had the great fortune of working with and improving their abilities. Um but I can only imagine because I also imagine he's pretty strong in the gym so .

mean and so I always amazes me the guys that make IT to that level no about what sport they do they're so gifted in everything you know like David, right used to make me laugh all the time with the math because no matter what I paint on, you know, like anything, he, because of hand, like coronation, like anything, you know, great. That jump rope, I remember he hadn't done a lot of jump rope.

And I I I think jump from the best things you can do from a conditioning standpoint. It's actually fairly interesting, is not just you know um is not too harsh on the joins depending you even though it's a political move and he wasn't admit, I know if you listens this, want to kill me, but I I was Better at him, then jump rope when the only things I could do. And then I gave him about five days, and he completely blooming out the water to the poor.

I could never keep up with him anymore. He made IT look effort list is like, that's the worthy athlete. And someone comes out no matter what they pick up.

They're good at IT. And I think that when you see guys like this in the G M, like their strength levels tend to be pretty damn good in their abilities, their coordination there. Everything just stands to serve. Be good at that level, you know, and sort amazing me why those guys can go pick up of a golf club, no, and go shoot seven, two, you know and and having never really played, know there are there are just naturally good at whatever they do.

Yeah, I have a couple smiling because I A couple really close friends who did a number of years, some several decades in the seal teams. And I don't know that their skill level at everything is so high as you're describing for athletes, but their level of competitive ess is beyond I ocean swim with one there's no chance and i'm outswim that ever ever he actually goes back and for some time just to check up on me um which I appreciate. Thank you.

Bad i'm around yet but the but in addition that you know we can play and it's like this switch that just flips on and like he's going to murder me a very nice guy, right? In general, they tend to be very nice. But the level of petition and even there yeah I know.

Thank you now so that worse, it's true. It's it's a remarkable thing. I'm glad you mentioned jum roping used to skip rope for warm t for boxing like three three minute rounds or something like that.

Um but I am glad you brought IT up because skipping rope is something that um obviously has a cardigans. Ic component there's the condition and component, there's timing and and is is kind of interesting. You can it's frustrating when you don't ips you on the air of using rapper rope.

I'm just curiously, you just give us a quick skipping rope one. I want you like to see people jumping with both feet. And also we will link to a video of if there was one and I missed IT you like to see people doing honest. You likes people basically like shuffle, want see people doing double duck.

What do you want to see people doing over time? All of you be double ove. I think I that's the cool thing, right? Like once we sort of master the skill because for all of us that first jump with the two feet going together is a chAllenge because he just got a time that rope, he got time your job and then we get bored. As we often do as humans, we get bored what we can do and want to take our new chAllenges.

So then IT becomes one lia of time, or then IT becomes side, the sid hops, right? All those things are beneficial, I believe, in neurological, to enhancing the ability to the skill as a whole, but also just because i'm such a believer in training in all three planes. So like just doing straight up and down first.

And now I can give frontal plain, side to side motion, and then I can even do small little twist or course cruiser column. Um IT requires a different you and no more, but but I do there. IT requires different neurological.

To be a little coordinate that because you're changing the orientation, your body in space. So it's not just that i'm changing the exercise, changing how my body interprets ent exercise because what's happened to my body in space. So I I love you know, whatever people wind up doing, but am I am amazed there are people.

I just started following the Young woman on instagram who is like, I give a pg. It's like ana skips something and SHE is ridiculous like I watch her and I like measured zed at what he can do with the rope. No, it's it's like is an extremely athletic endeavor.

But IT when he gets to be at that level in the speed, in the precision in the year and you I think one of the goals that you want to be a lot to have is to wear you're feeling as if you're almost effortless ly dancing without a rope like where you're just bouncing off for the ball of your foot. It's an important skill. Learn to whether you go back to a run or or you or even even job right, just like casual running.

Learning how to land is so important. One of the drills that people should try is like try to jump on your heels. So just stand up, pull your toes off the ground, right, and just jump from your heels and land on your heels.

You'll fill IT in your jaw. You'll really feel your jaw rattle when you land on your heels. There is no shock. Absorb capabilities through your heels. Meantime, a lot of people land on their heels, a lot when they, when they run.

And you're just your body's not built to absorb the forces like the ball of your foot cut is really built as a spring. And in the fit is to me as a physical therapy. The food is always been the most.

You talk having a bad feet. I have flat feet. IT looks like I got flippers. If I took, if I took my shoes off, like, I like, on school of fence, there is no, there is no adaptations of that foot to the surface.

And when it's completely cave and flat and like that, the job of this of the foot is to be adapted table. There is maybe there is some adaptability because is so floppy. But the same time, at some point, that critical junction, when you're going to then step through and you need to be able to push off the foot, has to actually changes in the middle itself to become origin L S.

That they call IT. you. You're going from a mobile adapter to origin lever. The rigid ever literally locks up the meta seal joint to become solid so that you can push off of IT with leverage. If you lacked that, the capability, all those stresses that are supposed to be born by the foot glop into the ankle, into the knee, into the hip, into the low back. So learning how to land and and start to train your your body to to h experience ground reaction forces the right way is so critical to all other function and all the disability of the canada chain. And jumping rope is like one of the best ways to learn.

How do that? great. I own a jump up. I love doing IT in the morning. Well, like a sunlight in my eyes.

It's actually protocol I picked up from tim fairs you mentioned because listen to my podcast and i'm like a broken record with get sunlight in your eyes even through cloud cover. It's just set your sleep rhymes in your waking rythm on and on. Um but somebody be kind of barring for people and I wanted get them off their phones. So jumping rope also disagree when to wake up. So um jumping rope can be a the cardio workout, the fifteen thirty .

minutes there is. So that hybrid that we are talking about before of like you, you're not necessarily dropping down to the ground doing burpy, but I just look at that as a more athletic endeavor because of the coordination involved. Then just simply walking or .

a jogging and it's not much of a uh, equipment requirement, very minimal cost. Could even use a robot or something if you .

although we we even instruct people that you use no rope and just pretend, you know and just move the arms, just you never hit the rope, which is know if you doing IT wrong but at least you can move through the and get the same benefits to the .

feet I want you I want um I told myself before sitting down with you today that I wasn't going to focus on specific exercises because there are such a wealth of incredible content that you put out there that people could just put into youtube or elsewhere and arrive at the proper way to do a chain or a deep or for whatever purpose.

But there's one exercise in one particular emotion that i'd like to discuss for a moment because I believe that learning about this cautionary note from you is one of the reasons that i've maintained steady training for thirty years with no major injury. Not on wood. And that's the upright row. You know one thing that whether i'll be weight train or not.

this podcast. And so we be this out. Do you get me for that night night? You know what? I always get beef. And in a social media platform ever put out. But like now, I some I get some from IT, but for my self.

But here here's the reason for asking about this. I never really cared much for upright rose. It's not exercise I tend to do. But one thing that's apparent in all my colleagues, in every child I see, in every adult I see, is that almost everybody is in rotation now.

Um so folks think if you still I think I learned this from you all, so if you stand up straight, then you just point your thumbs like like a thumbs but you're just your thumbs are down, your your thumbs straight out. Ideally they would go straight out. Most people the thumbs will be pointing toward one because most people are starting to look somewhere between a um a non human primate um and a melted candle.

You bended the helps that up from too much sitting, we all sitting or an inward rotation. But I learned from you that the upright road compromises uh, some important aspects of our shoulder mechanics and could be actually have a dangerous movement in some ways. I'm sure there's a safe way for people to do IT. But so I always made IT a point now on the basis of of this advice to a not do Operate roads, but I wasn't doing them before, but to really strive for um external rotation on things like bench tips on on a number of different things whenever I can I try and go into external rotation and provide you without looking like a nadia walking out of my palm s facing outward. Please tell us about internal external rotation um the upright row is one aspect of that but why this is so important, not just for wait training, but as in terms of posture and mechanics and and not looking like A A melted candle or partially melted.

I actually love I I am happy talking about, I love, I love the shoulder as a join. I think pt tend to fall in love of certain areas, and the shoulders is one of the cool areas for me. It's like the foot, but like the shoulder has the most mobility in the body of any of any joint.

But it's also got the least the ability. But there is always that trade off of more instant. So your stability comes from, you know, muscle groups. And one of the ones that the only muscle group that actually externally rotates the shoulder can be the rotator cuff, okay. And unless you are devoted to training through extra rotation and exercises that are going to especially rotate the shoulder, you're not training that function.

And it's so easy for us in everyday life, especially those that aren't training to not ever really undergo any of those stresses that could be beneficial to can interacting what happens freely and naturally with this interrogated. When you think about the imbaLance created just by nature and how we live our lives, interaction far, far, far out ways, extern. So you need to address IT. And the reason why you need to address this is because you need to Normalize those biometry shoulder if you want their long term health and one of the functions of the shoulder to raise our ARM up over ahead. And if we do that from an iteration rotated position, we are going to have a higher likelihood of creating stress inside that joint.

Funny thing I talked about before, my my pt brother and you can be somewhat um uh uh angry these days I don't know what happened but for the angry they they want to discredit the existence of something like uh shoulder and pinched which I don't know how I mean certain studies look both we all read studies and we we studies will say one thing. One thing potentially conflict entirely in a different direction. Some studies will point to the non existence of of of a shoulder and instrument.

Meanwhile, we have thankfully, a digital motion x rays that will literally show the in pageant occur in real time, in real function. And that's one of the limitations, I will, on attention here. But like those types of x or that type of philosopher that we have nowadays, that gives us such insight that we never have before because we're taking static x as as someone lying down on a table, I want to see what happens when you actually raised my arms up over my head in function.

And the tools now exist to do that. We see the, the, the problems occurring. Because in order to get Normal and free up the joint maximum inside, you need extraordinary rotas.

You raise the ARM up. So if your muscles aren't firing and they are not necessarily um as strong as the interros bias that pulls them in, you're asking for trouble every time you do that. Well this exercise is literally putting you in elevation in interros.

And if you were to walk into A P. T. Office and someone said, I think he's got pinching, you diagnose this, a test cause of hawking Kennedy test.

And I would put you in the position I know were not visible at this point through the podcast, but i'll put you in this position here where I have your ARM elevated and your hand pretty much under your chin pushing downtown on that to create an internal short rotation. Pretty much exact position that we're in when we're holding a bar in, in an up right, right. Some will say we'll just don't go so high, go only up to the level of the chest, but you're still in this interview rotated position.

The the thing that I think frustrates me the most about the exercises is that I have an alternative and the alternative does the same thing in terms of helping the muscles grow by simply fixing the biomechanics the exercise, but just allowing the hands to go higher than the elbows. So so that the elbow is being higher than the hand, which drives you to interrogate. The elbow was lower than the hand, the hand being higher here i'm an external and I could do something called the high pole and still get the same abduction of the ARM, and still get the same benefits of the shoulder of deals in the traps, without having to undergo any other stresses that would come from the somewhat awkward movement of an up right.

And for those listening, we will put a link to a short clip of what this looks like. But basically what jeff is doing and tell me i'm describing this incorrectly or correctly, jeff, as taking in your two thugs and pointing behind you, you know, so bows up kind of near the chin and and point you behind you like go ahead of that way, like somebody directing the airplane, like, come back, come back back.

And what they call that is, I think it's called semaine reign, is the action of like where they direct the planes or something, the flags or whatever. Someone, of course, tell me i'm wrong about that too, which is I say these things because I like I like being told what what the correct answer is in any case. Um so this replaces the the upright row and and probably does the number of other important .

things as well. 我 觉得 again， I I without naming your programs, are in that when I got involved, when I got involved in in athlete, next I first started, you know, my online presence there was a very, very, very popular, uh, program that was out there that I just for fun, I wanted to have A P.

T the nerdy things we do but I wanted to evaluate the the workout structure and I went and I looked at every rap over the course of a week and there were something like you know eight hundred and ninety repetitious or something done um and zero of them were dedicated exchange shoulder. So if you think about let me get that was a very popular program that was done by a lot of people. There is no there was no focus at all, no dedicated focus tours, creating a baLance to an action that is so predominant and remember, is not just because we sit with that posture, but the fact that our chess can internally rotate, our lats can internally rotate.

There's like muscle, other big muscles that participate in things that we do every day that will further international, rotate the shoulder. The only weapons we have for extraordinary those little rotor cuff muscles, and three of them, actually three of the four, and the job is to sort of actively and consciously train them through really the borrower exercises is right. Like you've seen them with the band.

You you anchor band to a poll, you stand with the band in the opposite hands. So if it's anchor to the pool in my left side, i've got the band on my right side and you see people where they kind of rotate their hand towards the back again, kind of what you are saying. But at a lower elevation, taking the back of my hand and trying to point to somebody behind me, um well, you know that that is that is one of ways to train the muscle is just a one function of the shoulder, external the shoulder and you need to do IT.

And again, it's not that if somebody was doing more exportation work, could they absorb the upright row Better? Probably because as they elevate the ARM, they probably have a little bit more of a contribution from the rotated cove to what one of the functions is to centralized the head of the humorous inside of the glenoid near the capture. So as IT rises up, IT stays central as opposed to migrating up um because the dell toy likes to pull up.

So if the rotation cuff has some ability to contact the upward pull of the delt, then you can maintain a more healthy relationship with over hebb b. So just realizing that that that that functions only gained through doing these exercises. Um you know we went live to dedicate more time there. But the road the upright role might be Better absorb by that person because they have a little bit more strain.

But again, why? Because if you have an exercise that does the same thing for what you're trying to do muscularly, to build the muscles that IT affects, why wants you just do IT, where you can still see actually pick up more repetitions of externally, you know, so you're getting none of the harm, all the benefits. I see zero reason to ever do the up, right, right? And people will argue this is where they, that I ve done this for thirty years.

I never heard myself, and I always say, yeah yeah, like I listen. The goal is to not hit yourself ever. So even if you is sort of like, you know, the championship game and you might play the game of your life, but if you lose your lost and when you get into the end of, know, the record books, you still lost.

So even if you had the game in your life, you lost. I don't care if you do if for thirty years, no pain, still doing that and there's no pain, i'm giving you an option that's gna give you the same results in the exercise you're seeking. That's why you're doing the exercise without the the possibility of having the the the bad out come from IT. So you know, I get a little bit, you know, defensive of the move, but I feel like I was like.

why would you do that? No, being able to try for a long period of time and feel good. And you know, no, I proud to say, you know, I don't have the kind of you so like we don't have a lot of impressive athletes in our family tree and there you know some fit individuals, some less fit individuals, but I really believe it's about putting in the work consistently over time in the the the more often you can wake up not in pain, the Better.

Um and so you know that I think that being an external rotation has often possible good this is actually a good friend who's a yoga teacher told me this is also a problem with the yogis you know a lot of the downed dogs up for those listening um you can think of inward rotation as like thumbs like thumbs down. Emerging isn't bad, but less thumbs down, more thugs up as external. So for those just listening, maybe that is a of visual.

The more exercise you can do an external rotation, uh, the Better IT seems on average. Um i'd love to chat with you just A A little bit more about biomechanics and and this is a personal thing that that and your contact really help save for me. One is I thought I had lower backpack.

I had seattle so badly that on a few trips, I H work trips years ago when I was doing a lot more international travel, I mean, I was hard to stand up. Sometimes I really like excruciating pain. I didn't want to take medication. I want to do back surgery um in the end turns out I wasn't a back injury at all.

Um and one of the things that helped fix IT was this just learning about this thing called the media group yeah and you are had a video that that fixed back pain and then you quite actually say that some book pain isn't really about the back at all. And and have me do an exercise where allowed me to try an exercise where I lay on my side and then he pointed my um my toe down, the top toe down, almost like pointing the toe down and then would slowly lift the the leg up while pointing the toe down. Maybe I got a character and then holding that and there's a muscle that six at the top of the glue peaks out.

Everyone's in a while you can feel IT there with your thumb which is I think that you had push back on IT yeah a bit creating that mind muscle link again and um and there with proper exception, the actual feeling of a muscle literally with with a limb. We know for the based on the neural circuits for movement that that enhances the contract our ability of the muscle. Like if you touch your boss, you you literally can contract IT more more strongly and this makes total sense based on um uh no muscular physiology.

So help me do that repeatedly. I started doing that in my hotel room, and the pain started to disappear. And then I came back again the afternoon.

So I did IT again in the afternoon. So this is something I did for three or four days and long behold, a book page gone. I handed this off to my father because he liked me, has a slightly lower right shoulder.

I think that our gate is probably thrown off by. This is pride genetic. Who knows? He handed off to somebody. You IT turns out that we don't suffer from book pain.

And in fact, now I don't suffered from any pain because I was doing this exercise, which I think is helping my low of my media group. Two reasons why I raise this one. I know a lot of guys who have the right side psychotic, because people to keep the wall, theirs one idea, or left side saa. There are a lot of people, male and female, who think they have backpack when they don't actually have backpack. And the other thing is that is about a general question about biomechanics or stay about biomechanical.

I had of a feeling that a lot of what people think is backend in, or nee pain, or neck pain or headache or show their in is actually a the consequence of something that's happening above below that side of pain, right? And um this is a whole landscape of of stuff for late to P T and and recovery and and pain management. But maybe you you just, uh, educate us a bit on this and why this works.

What is the media glue? Why did to make my so called bad disappear? And um how should people think about pain? And I like to use this to say where to get into a little bit more deeper discussion .

about pain recovery. sure. So this is definitely like big corner copy of pt stuff here. But like I and this why I love so first of all that video that is my proud test video that I have in the reason being is that I is helped so many people like we get commence on video every day. Um I don't know how you got now thirty million or we will link to IT.

Yeah there's a lot use and quite honestly, I was a little bit of an after thought video in terms of its a its origin I think that that day maybe Jessie was having some problem, just something that a little bit little backpack and and I showed him and he helps right away like, well, you know, we can make a video on that because this this will help people. You know that everybody, you know, if you have a real. This problem is I going to help you know, because you're not change in the structural problem that's there.

But as you said, a lot of people don't you know and and even this issues, a lot of them were not Operative. So you would want to try these things first um as far as what you sort of experience sometimes as that group media is rely tightened down and that's that's again from poor biomechanics up down the canal chain IT can actually press on the psychic nerve and give you what they call a suo SATA where you like your you're making IT up. But it's not like you're not feeling that pain over that same size distribution but is not caused from a desk, is not caused from something mechanical there is caused by the fact that this group videos has has postal become a problem for you or weak, you know, because you don't train IT and you need to address IT.

So like unlike not unlike any other muscle, the body there are common trigger points in common areas where the muscle will become tightened or painful or spam. And you can basically apply pressure to these areas to, and then sort of thread that muscle through the pressure by pushing down through there, and then contract in the muscle, which is why you go through that action. I think we call a toast stabber, but like stabbing down and liping up and stabbing down and looking up, taking that that loop media through its function.

So is basically kind of working underneath the downward pressure of the finger. And that tends to help you to almost, you know uh, need out what might be the that trigger point. And that's why people can see immediate relief there because once the trigger point lets go um IT feels like that's what the comments are in that video like, my god, I I couldn't walk up, put on my hotel floor.

I did this and i'm fixed and meanwhile then you know, I could come back because your body is like, why I I like being more like this. This is how i've been. You in a in grain to be so might come back.

But then when you do another round of IT and another round of IT and then finally started, Sarah, i'm not going to do anymore and ease this up. You can relieve yourself of of those trigger points. You can do that up and down the back.

There's all the people that get that in that sort of inside their shoulder blade, you know, that same type of cramping in another area. But once that takes place， well then the job that I think people have is like become educated that you know the group media is different than the glue maximum. Their functions are are different.

You know you have to work are not just extending the hip, but also abduction of the heap, extra rotation of the hip. Same thing is in the shoulder. And this actually segway is nicely into what into the whole concept you're talking about.

Like the body is like a miro image. The hip is like the shoulder, right? The ankle is the rest.

The foot is the hand, like they function. The knee is the elbow. The two hinge joys, the functions that way. Well, with the shoulder, you've got that mobility that comes from having all that freedom emotion, but the stability is lacking. Well, the same thing with the hip, like you've got mobility, but if you don't fully stabilize IT by training all the muscles of the hip, and if you don't strengthen the exterior of the hip, then you know you you you're gonna have issues like, is that biomechanical gonna work the same way?

If you think of the body as A A series of, you know, bans, you know, polling in different directions at different levels of tension, you know you're being pulled into one direction, the other just by the baLance of tension from one weak area to one tight area. And you need to make sure that you can sort of baLance this out in order to eliminate some of the adaptations and compensations that happen. So what I say when we look at sort of the the um the the body as a whole, most often whatever you're feeling the pain is absolutely not to blame.

There's not blame. IT is somewhere above or below as you hint to that. You know you're talking about the the knees.

My my favorite example of that whenever you have nee pain, I tell you ten, nine is which I I I have forever. I've had a bad, bad cases of tea ten minutes where square is very difficult for me. It's not the need. The need is the knee is early, a hence joint that that there's a mineral table capabilities and the need, but it's a hence joint and is being impacted by the hip and the ankle and in the foot.

As I said before, how critical the foods, if you thought of the of the knee being the like, the middle of the train track, where the fema down your side and your shine down below your knee, where the train track, what happened if the foot collapses at the bottom? All of a sudden that train track on the bottom gets talked just a little bit well. Who's gna feel that the most the area words talking, which is at the knee, so the stress is, are going to be felt there.

Meanwhile, the problems, the fun or the problem is the ankle people that are chronic ankle sprains are almost always going to want to having backpack, because the ankle spring in causes weakness. And malta's and the ankle that then IT gets connected through the chain because now once I just store the ankle on the shin, now the knee is trying to maintain its the ability to hinge smoothly. So IT talks on the fema to do that.

All the family is now inside the hip joint, pull on the pElvis and the pElvis at a wax. So it's really, it's really is fascinating. I like, is one of my favorite things about how the body works is like how I interconnected IT is and how one little thing somewhere causes this repercussion somewhere else.

And the easiest way to find out what your problem is is to say, okay, I know where my system is, but I gotta find someone who can help me find the source somewhere else. Because IT is gonna be usually either abroad below, mostly usually below, because IT usually translates up the connected chain, but usually it's gonna be below um where the real sources of people with low backpack usually have hip issues, witnesses tightening sis. The issues is almost always below.

When you get to really high performer statistics though, IT almost works to the way, like where we have pictures, who can't. I mean, i'm always fascinated by guys that have Tommy john issues in the album. Right pitch is like if you can externally rotate the shoulder every talked about again, the ability get your shoulder back and patient, well, your ARM has to get to a certain position for release of the baseball.

And if you can get there, if you can extraordinary the shoulder to get there, then the elbow has to sort of talk more in order to allow the ARM to get back further. And I will try to take some of that motion from a joint has not really, again, another end joint really capable doing that. So I started to stress that media vel ligament to get a little bit further back because the shoulders not working, and that just ultimately places in the elbow.

So when you see a guy that has pain, that floats around, a picture, that float around their ARM, all that is a sort of this baLance of compensation. Once this short elbow starts her and then he can't to get the the range from the elbow. So he tries to dig a little bit for the back in textile and then the rotated cuff gets in flame.

And then he feels that in flame. So by the way, during that time period that takes on the straight off the elbow, the elbow feels Better. Then he decides, okay, now i've got the extraordinary, but i'm getting too much of that.

So I started training the elbow again, and IT keeps going to the cycle. So your body is very smart and it's gonna compensate every single time is gonna the compensation. But there is no guarantee that that compensation doesn't leave you with the whole the other issues.

Yeah, fascinating. In another lifetime I would have gone to be A P T.

although that sounds like the community of among p yeah.

Scientists and neuroscientists can get into pretty intense in coming from the academic community. The adequate is so different online because I would say, you know, I think in person, people would probably behave a bit and and you and and and and there's also look out i'll just be very direct about this. There are a lot of people online for whom there are only content is pointing out the misunderstanding, ings or alleged flaws of other people.

That's like IT it's like that bulk of their identity, which to me is sort of a sad existence. But you know there's always more to gain by thinking about what's possible, what's new and what's good. But teach their own um demise um or when I mean question .

questioning was out there, health Normal great actually conversation um but as you said, some people's existence is solely to find things to me nag about and not actually with the goal being to advance anything but rather just to .

yeah in in the world of science um being skeptical but not cynical is is encouraged um but I would say that the longer that somebody dies in a career path， that certainly in science or medicine and they realized how harried is you know to do various studies once they publish a few studies generally they they sort of get A A Better understanding of how the various things are done, in any case, another along the lines of pain and pain relief and and misunderstandings about the origins of pain in the body.

One of the great tools that I picked up from your content, which IT is benefit A, I know a huge number of people's, I think I used to hold a weight in the tips of my fingers, has posted in the meat of the palm of my hands. And I had a elbow pain. And I thought that I felt at most on try step exercises and pushing exercise.

And I thought I was doing those exercises wrong. Turns out, told the end of my pull ups or my best work, I was letting the weight or the bar drift into my fingertips and and the mere shift to making sure that my nuckles were well over the bar or that the weight was really in the meat of my palms is completely eliminated. That for reasons that you point out, and maybe you could just share with us why that is of this kind of finger poor exercise. You usually when someone pull my finger .

is like a DDL school and b push this is specially this is um because IT just shows again how intricate the body is and how responsive or over responsible IT can be to something so little. And you know what you're talking about is that when you grip a bar.

Rather be through a coral or rather or be this is mostly pulling exercises because the tendency for the bar is going to be to fall out of your hand, not like with the pushing exercise, where is kind of you pushing your hand into the bar? So on a bench press say, um that bar can drift just by gravity. We doing this thing or fatigue of the the hand grips train can start to drift further away towards the the dial digits right through those through the last couple nuckles that we have on our hands.

And though our hand can still hold IT there, um the muscles are not equipped to handle those types of loads. And that can started a very, I like, say like, but like, you know, I could started, you know, dumbbell way, you know, forty pounds, thirty pounds, even twenty five pounds for some, depending upon the overall strength levels. But then when you start to apply to something like your body way with the chin nap, right, that's natural for the bar of somewhat kind of flow down towards your fingertips. And IT actually is a little bit easier to perform the exercise with that sort of like fall scrip little hook grip at the end because you're not gonna gage the forms into the exercise, you're not going to start pulling down.

But at the same time, while that could help you to perform them Better by getting the back more activated if you have weakness is in these muscles, because is not a thing that happens that ever, not one of those upright role type things, where I think this is happening to everybody, this is happening to people that have these inherent weaknesses in in this, in these muscles, you or or having done enough of the gripping in the four, in, in the media, the hand know for long enough, but IT starts to put that stress on. These muscles are ill equipped to do this and to handle this. And IT starts to is particularly on that fourth finger, which is part of the muslim we call the fda function digital.

Um that is just too much for the handle and that comes always down. And me right at the middle level, right on that spot that you can say feels like someone like nothing you write in the middle, in the middle level, in medial epic lights, or they call IT gold, as is something that a lot of us deal within. The gym is one of the most common and flaming conditions people get from the gym, and IT all comes from this positioning of the dubell lar barbelle or hand on a polar bar over time.

So the easiest thing to do is just grip deeply. That what you're doing is you're using, uh, more leverage from the palm to enable late the bar or the dumbbell ler, whatever. And you're not putting that pressure really distantly right on that last digit because that's where the that F, D, S muscle is most strained.

So you you're just almost eliminating that from the equation is one of those exercises that the load can exceed its capacity pretty quickly so that like no maybe something capable of handling thirty pounds. And then when you're doing to chin up and he goes and that drift so far, that is you to say you to one guy, you've got hundred pounds through one ARM and one hundred pounds. This is simplified math that obviously is offset by other muscles. But hundred pounds to one ARM hundred pound there, one hundred pounds of the muscle can handle thirty, is not going to take many repetitions to strain IT.

And you're onna feel that maybe by the time that sets over or certainly by the time that work out over over the next day you wake up, you've got that notable stabling pain whenever someone feels that the best thing would be to determine, okay, what exercise would I doing that we're polling and where the bar could have drifted deeper, further from the me of my palm into my fingers and figure out a way that deep in that grip. When that happens, though, the best thing to do with most of these film meaty conditions is not do any of that stuff for a little while, not ever, just for little while. There's always things that you can do around IT.

And not saying, I say I don't go to the gym or don't find something you can do, but i'm saying that particular exercise that you feel the pain, why you're doing IT never a smart idea to do that exercise when it's inflamed. If you are doing exercise and IT hurts, you publish to do the exercise. Because another, you know, a reason, a for the variability of exercises there.

There are so many other options that you can do that we will train similar muscles or even the same motion. And that caused that stress. So I mean, a cable, a cable curl would be much easier to do that on. Then let's say, I chin up where you don't have the control over the weight like you do by moving a pin on a stack. So you know, I think that that that is a common thing that people find. And the best thing to do is just figure out how grape, how deep group that bar you going to find that, oh my god, realize that because was just even though you even might start a step in a good position and drifts away as you go.

Yeah, I think that's what was happening me and i'm very conscious of this. Now again, for me, it's haven't at this elbow pain at all. So very fortunate.

So again, that gratitude never. I thought there's something wrong in my elbow, basically, and I thought maybe was ten is cell. I don't in play tennis. And so there you go. Other aspects of recovery and very for recovery.

Uh, I think um you and I both put out content about the use of cold and I think we can summarize IT by saying, yeah does seem my cold water emerge immediately after hyper trip or strains workout might be a problem, but a cold showers not a problem. What about heat? Um do you do you personally use heat and cold? Uh sam as hot, your hot baz, uh hot compresses um you and by you do I mean you personally and and athletes um that you coach your people that you coach um what are your thoughts on the use .

of heat and or cold um well I think if you know IT might just be inhered practice from the days of no trainers of since a big broth we in baseball we use a lot of cold following performance you know just because the the idea would be there. There is some especially pictures, there is some information that is abNormal. The ARM is not really designed to do what they do, especially the at the speed that they move IT and everything else.

So we would use the ice as a pretty standard practice after that um but not not a lot of heat, use a lot of heat. And of course, from the recovery, the the healing aspect that actually becomes rather uh personal preference theyve found now um after let's say the first twelve to twenty four hours, know where you really trying to control information of what you know might be an injury. But then then you can kind of shift the personal preference because the heat can bring blood to the area also and then the cold has its sort of and die inflammatory effects.

So like there's there's a baLance between which one's working Better for you. So there really no standard anymore for heat or cold in that way. But from a standpoint of like post work out healthy status, I haven't used much heat or cold in terms of what we do.

We cover the topic of the cold showers to try to dispell the myth of the um you know even people saying that there's chance to astro releases and know all kinds of stuff that you know listen to here are all kinds of things because people want like I think the idea just turning the water cold and being in IT for thirty seconds and then also set of magically growing three times your size is intriguing for a lot of people. And and that's why they asked these questions because I like that be a how much easier than going to jail in training hard. But I always fascinated by some of the stuff that that you talk about. Fact, we started to talk about some of the stuff in terms of cooling. And what I can do on performance, and that was, you like there is someone tap territory there that I think here you are finding out about will be fun.

would be to bring the cool MIT technology from stanford. This is a treg heller, my colleague crag hellers lab at stanford and really important um amazing work in this area but then had moved on to some other things. He's also working on downtown german. He works on a number of either really important topics of scientists often do but I have access to the school with technology, no relationship to the company.

By the way, we love to come out to your facility and and um we can do the blind type studies and blue back yeah exactly exactly and and see how I goes um in in with somebody advance advances trained as you um that that's why the best thing do so content for the future um yeah I think he and called that are kind of staples in the P T world. And I doesn't m my people use them um slightly differently, but they are they are kind of the macromedia ts of recovery. There are along with sleep.

Um I what I do have a question about precision of record keeping. Do you keep a training journal? Uh, do you recommend people keep training journals? Are you neurotically ally fixed to you can save movement.

And, uh, are you looking at the do you have a buzz going off for when it's ninety seconds rest? Is IT ninety seconds rest? I confess I have my slow workouts and my faster workout and they scale with whether i'm training heavier with longer rest yeah or whether on may be midway through a work out our shift over to doing higher repetition, low arrests. This is of my you know crude way of of keeping time but i'm not you will be just kind of watch the but i'm not neurotically ally fixed to the buzzer nor am I on social media during my workouts, which is actually a way to really improve workouts is to just not be on .

social media. Yeah, I can clean, not guilty of sometimes I am on social media, but sometimes i'm trying .

to post something well.

that question what I mean I I I am not necessarily uh, chained to some sort of protocol in terms of how I do. I think by this point in doing this a long time and not only is something i've done for a long time, but it's it's a passionate I really enjoy.

So I probably inherently have the ability to stick to these these uh guidelines in terms of rest time um to know what I lifted you know even six months ago on a lift in how I felt without journal IT. But I recognize the value that has to a lot of people that goes back to the whole my muscle connection idea that we taught to about the beginning, like there is a lack of awareness for all aspects of training, is because he maybe isn't like you're interest level. We're talking you and I from A A position of interest like this is what we do.

We enjoy just how our body work and understanding how they work. Some people don't care, they just want the end result. But journal and keeping track of that raises awareness to, like all my god, I I happen on instagram for the last seven minutes and I was supposed to be back at my next set in ninety seconds. Like there is a training effect of that. You know like you you're training for a meta c overload you below in that opportunity because you have your rest time was very um was very important to that protocol working as IT should.

Um if you are trying for strength, maybe the extra few minutes doesn't matter so much when you get back on the bar, you might find I mean, you might find that it's a Better response to your body to rest even longer than you've been told three, four minutes, five minutes um and so that way maybe IT helps. But I think that anything you can do to increase your awareness of your performance and also give yourself some objective goal whenever we have an objective goal is a lot easier actually obtain IT when you're just there to get a pump and you're just there to lift how you feel that day. You have to be incredibly disciplines in all other aspects of you're work out in order to make that effective.

And and i'm done that too. I've actually been able to do that too. But again, the level of repetitions i've accumulated over the course of my life in the amount that I that I read about this stuff, and I think i'm able to get away with that.

But but I think more are often than not, what i'm doing is not journey, but at journey in my head, exactly what I think people should be doing. And that is getting a specific effect from what you're trying to do, is not so haphazard. You know, you want to get specific effect just like any other experiment that you're doing.

You doing an experiment in your own body with your own ways, which to me is one the most empowering thing someone can never do when they get bitten by the bug for exercising in in training. And and I like to use word training and rather than exercise, this is the purpose behind IT when they get bit and by that training bug and they start to see actual changes and results, you know, impowering, that is because we can't we can't really control that many things in our life, unfortunately. And there are some things that happened to us that we really wish never happen um and those are not something that we can do anything about.

But this is one thing that we can do our best to. We can avoid disease entirely. We can predict more anna die. We can you do those things, but we can certainly decide to shape into the gym that day and get to work out in or go for a run or do something. And by doing that, you're giving yourself, I think, a Better chance of a higher quality life. So anything you can do to increase your wearing ness of IT and keep you on track with that is like i'm the .

dorsey fully couldn't agree more. I could not be more the there is a topic, it's of a dread topic, but I think it's an important one and that's the topic of nutrition um and rather again, into specific meal and which would take take hours and and probably wouldn't even manage to scratch the surface even with hours.

If we could talk about principles around nutrition, what are sort of the themes that you think people should keep in mind in one thing about how to eat generally? And free training and post training are too particularly sensitive times for most or times that people want to know a lot about. What should they before training or can they train passage? What should they eat afterwards? But in general, what do you think are some axioms of of nutrition that that really hold? And I I asses I because not because there's a lot of bea about this, but because you've been around this space a long time.

Yeah and you've seen what works for you, obviously, for other people too. You know what tends to work, what tends not to work? And how should we think about nutrition?

I mean, like you've touched on that a bit, but like nutrition can be a touchy subject for people, and I understand where that comes from. I've talked about before the there's a dogmatic tendencies, nutrition, and there's a reason for because it's an area that people struggle with more than anything else. And the reason why people strugling with nutrition is because the commitment is extremely high.

You know, you could start to workout program and actually get to the gym three to five times a week. That's five hours based on how you and I were discussing IT before. Well, what about the other twenty three hours of each of those days? There is opportunity to eat incorrectly or unhealthfulness every one of those hours people wake up in the middle night, go there.

There are things that you can do that can cause amazing amount of damage um to your longevity in the twenty three hours, not the one hour, the twenty three hours someone, people finally figure out of a way to make that work for them. It's very passionate and I understand their passionate. I do like I put out.

So my approach, my approach is like i've always been sort of a low sugar, lower fat guy. I made the mistake of going no fat years ago, and I paid for. And I was, like, in college and back in the day we were the same age, know we read the all the magazines, and that was going to have been at then.

So we were reading magazines. And the recommended path was to go low that um IT helped you to become hyper color d very easily because the density of the calories, a gram of fat versus a gram of carbo hydrates of protein is nine university four, the carves in protein. So if you're cutting out grams of fat on a daily basis, you're quickly cutting out calories that allows you to get leaner.

Well, of course, as everything, I mean, if little is good and a lot is Better. So I would cut all of them are almost all of them. And at the age of twenty two, twenty one, like standing at a stop of university, and I waiting for the tram to come and brain in the campus, and I couldn't even open my eyes because the light was blinding to me IT was Normal sunlight IT was blinded to me.

The photo sensitivity I had, you know, learning later on, after a few more courses that I took there in biology, know how is necessary. That was for the development of healthy, you know, uh, cells. I I realized what was going on then nothing made, other stuff. Skin was bad. Here was fAllen out all kinds of stuff.

So I I I think that the approach to decreasing fact was not excessive you know because again, how chLorine ally density could be in having lower sugar, I know i'm a firm believer and sugar is really pretty toxic and um something that we would all do Better getting rid of a lot of IT. Um that is the best approach for I believe again my opinion personally for the overall big picture because though the people can take exclusionary approaches to nutrition, taking carves out or you know you know eating only fats and proteins, or again, i'm not saying IT doesn't work you. And if it's the first thing that actually allowed you to gain control of nutrition to the point we actually serve, results got to a healthier way.

Then I always say then do IT, then do IT, but just make sure something you can do forever and doesn't bring upon other repercussions. But I think that not exclusive approaches to dies are the the most sustainable for the rest of your life. And when I and all i'm interested in from nutrition standpoint, something that sustainable.

So when I preach, what I preach happened doing this since I was fifteen, fourteen. You know, people say, like how you get so rap, how you get. I have been doing this for four since, for how many years? thirty? Thirty years? Thirteen in low sugar.

Yeah, thirty years. You know, in the beginning I was a slow shift. I had to make words like, I went from the worst, die in the whole world.

I was even when I fourteen years old, my breakfast was. I taught about this many times. But like animals, I would eat. Animals know donuts .

in those long road.

even took .

the whole .

out of the donor. yeah. Why would you .

delete the middle .

of the donor? The chrome, the chrome down there? I stated.

I don't like sugar very much, but I, over the years, to my appetite for sure. But as you talk about the entire stone, I can literally smell and taste the frosting. yeah.

And to me now it's disgusting. We were back then. I might have been .

appetite would probably have like really good information on this. But like my ability to actually remember, I know they're said smell is very a evoking of memories yeah so there's a smell .

is unlike the other senses because there's a direct line literally from our sense of smell to the memory centers, the brain IT doesn't have to go through .

any in immediate station OK. So you know my ability to actually recall exact case of all the time, that is, to love, is enough to satisfy me to not not engage in those things. Now it's crazy.

That is, I like, I almost get my fill through remembering because of the strong senses of memory of what I was like. Oh, I used to so good. Okay, that's I that we know .

the neuromodulators or there that's doping. A your ability get the the dopamine released from the thought of something. Most people, when they get that dopamine release, IT causes A A triggering of the desire for more right?

People think of dobin is pleasure. Do there's a book, great book called the molecule of more. I didn't write the book, unfortunately, but someone else did.

And it's a great work and it's really about how dope mean. We think it's about pleasure. But IT establishes craving so you're able to satisfy that.

And it's a very adaptive thing for you because you are indeed very lean. Yeah and that's one of your kind of hallmark things. And you know a professional who does this in the public space, that's important. You know when people are out, they're talking about getting lean and you look at them and you are like, you know maybe you need to do the protocol is A. Vantage but yeah I think that um IT sounds like you cultivated practices around of avoiding certain things .

yes yeah I mean but not you know avoiding certain things that I think are easily avoided if you realize that there I do. I think that we have enough science and literature out there to prove that the altered path is a Better path. No, you know, I mean, like I feel like if I was just doing IT because I want to to be lean, quite sure I would have held for so long.

And we have a guess that a whose episode has been recorded for this podcast runs and eating disorder clinic at the universe, pensylvania medical school studies, binging disorders and iraqi A O C D.

And and he will go on record and obesity, and he will go on record saying that these very highly palatable processed high sugar foods of the sort that we're talking about um do not and so forth that they are actually dangerous, right? That there are elements of the way that they engage. Neural circuitry is a surgeon that reshaped the brain in dangerous ways. And those are .

his words and yeah.

it's not just elements I mean, I think not just animals, right ah had they're coming out to us with with what with donors, they can't catch us right um in any case um so in terms of what you do IT, how do you structure that um in terms of when you look down at a plate you've done these describe this before. I think it's just a beautifully simple description because I think a lot of people don't want to do calory counting and all um you know how should people think about what to eat .

so yeah I have like what I call plate method and it's it's just simple because IT works for me. Um and again, if you're struggling with um with real eating issues, these these mechanisms become immediately less effective because you are having maybe have emotional trigger eating and you can't stop IT one play, I mean you can get the plate right, but if the portions are at the control plate.

right, plate has the dimensionality .

of high or multiple place. Second right play right then you know all these things can be chAllenged. But what what I say is um when you have your plate, then you just simply look at IT as like like a clock right and um if you just make a nine twenty on the clock, so one ARM goes over to the nine and one of the arms goes over, well then you're basically you're gonna a take the the second largest portion of that is going to make line towards twelve clock and the largest portion is going to be your fibre cover hydrate so that the the Green vegetables.

So whether be broccoli or brussels as or space or you pick pick your favorites, you know like those the ones that give us a lot of micronutrient we need, there are the ones that are generally know accept that as more healthy um and they're also going to provide the fiber that's going to be both terms of its a impact on instant and also just through filling you up, right? And then I take the next largest portion of that and I devote that towards protein. And this is really important, especially for anybody active. Um the more active you are, the more you embark on trying to build muscle. You're onna need to have protein every meal so I have that and again, you know we're talking in cleaner sources of protein.

But like I am, you'll never find like boiled chicken on my plate like I ditch those days when I was sixteen or fifteen or sixteen, I realized after reading those body body magazines that maybe the low fat things stuck for two long, but the are the no fat things stuck for too long but the boiled chicken and in the uh steam broccoli thing that ended quickly for me because I am a and eat this forever so i'll have some sort of fish or chicken and but I will be I will be cooked in a way that's that's like, you know, it's got maybe some sauce and got some maybe tomato sauce. Anything that just just make IT a little bit more panel interesting without blowing value of the meal. And then that last portions where I put my started cover hydes.

And again, that's the part that some people say exclude them entirely because you're not healthier, they don't work for you or they are not beneficial. Al, long term, for me, it's been a godsend. And and I do think I like most people, my body craves those carbon hydrate.

I choose things like sweet potato es, which is my favor. You all have a rice or all have passed italian. So I like posted, and I like I will have those things. I'm not excluding them, but I don't put them in the portions that you would generally find. You know my wife and I will go out and i'll go the restaurant sometimes like because we travel um quite a bit of used to these with baseball too.

There is a cheesecake factory where you went and I love cheesecake factory but like the way they structure meals is it's all rice on the bottom and a little chicken on top and I mean it's a played ful of rice that you wouldn't find me make a play that way. I'm gona just devote that portion of the plate to the starchy cover hydrate. And so IT gives me a little bit more responsibility in terms of portion control because those are the foods um again probably you know dolpin driven that are most easily over ein.

I always asked the question that was last time eight ten chicken and breast at a meal like you're get and sick of IT after may be two or three but you could eat a whole hover a lot of carbon hydrate started carbo hydra. They're just so satisfying. And I think those triggers, as you said, they want more like that.

What happens, right? You just keep you you even when you're feeling for all you want more. Um and that's the biggest danger of carbon hydrates tes. So if you can develop some sort of discipline around them um then you can still enjoy them.

If you can develop that discipline for whatever reason, that maybe they do become something that you have to work yourself around or or a after the different installed. And as I said, i'm never to the point i'm not trying to be dogmatic in my approach. I've always trying to say this is how I do IT and and i'm a believer in IT, just like everyone else is believer in their method. But i'm open to the idea that something that works for you and gets you to uh, healthier weight and a sustainability like that is good that's that's good for me. You know provide IT doesn't introit trode ce other other issues .

you know yeah something one can do consistently. That's only I picked up from you a over the years. You know what can you do consistently? And for me, that also meant, what, when and how can I eat? What can I eat consistently? That will also allow me to be alert after a lunch so I can actually get some worked, yeah, you, or eat.

I like to train faster in the morning, but I don't do any long term fast. And just so happens that i'm fine doing a water and caffeine in the morning and training in the morning and at first year afterworld, but I get couple hundred at night. So my like I think cover heads are wonderful.

I just don't need them and access. So to me that I feel like when what you describe as a very rational, literally baLance ed approach um and obviously there will be variations for people who are dealing with obesity or die tes. You know i've got friends that on the the peer kind of our thing, I friends that are vegan and always impressive to me when somebody can stick to anything consistently these except when they're sticking to just poor behavior.

That's impressive about that. I think that that's very helpful um because I think there's for the typical listener of this podcast, you know the online content that people see the battles are very confusing. They're distracting because people really think that there's a right way in a wrong way that sounds like the way that one can um eat consistently over time. That's healthy um certainly fewer processed sugary foods. I think almost you .

almost everyone agrees on that, right? So I think it's is calorie manipulation through some other method, right? So even even in the investing like like he said, like that could be it's for people that are grazers, like if you are a grazer and your real problem is portion control over the course of the day.

But you can respond to a rule that says, no, you're eating between here and here, you can obey that rule. Well, you're not going to be able to grade during the time that you might be doing additional damage. So um sure, there is there there's other hormonal benefits that people will talk about from that approach.

But from a long gever point in habit forming standpoint, if it's fixing the habit that your breaking too often by eating throughout whatever you feel like you walk by food, it's good, you know, and IT works. And again, know people can will tell you, you can probably eat whatever you want to eat as long as you're eating within those that window. But I think the more responsible people who are practices of that will say, no, you still want to avoid Price of sugar and and things like that.

So and that just the mechanism of being not really die, right? But like it's I think that people I I hate, I hate to be as like as as basic as as IT sounds with that. But it's for the exact reason that if it's that twenty three hour day phenomenon that's like you know you said you're impressed.

That is impressive. You know it's so hard to control all of our behaviors and food being one of the hardest and one of the biggest temptations for people. You know learn how to control that for so long and then do IT day after day after day.

Um whatever that mechanism is that works for you is is impressive IT. And i'm and i'm i'm a believer in IT. You know I think that's that's how I feel. I just feel like people need to be able to be given some rains to be able to to find what works for them.

I'd love to eat. And one of the beauties of weight training as I feel like I can eat plenty for my age and i'm not as clean as you are, but happy with where am I can always do Better, you know, with each year actually i'm getting Better problem because i'm meeting cleaner I to cook for me now and and we like we like healthy food and so i'm very fortunate. I don't think we have any package food or home. We've started making sour crowd at home. I don't make IT ah SHE .

makes my wife actually know SHE SHE. Turn on to a tip that actually shared with the whole channel, which was like you can you can go to we have a school landers around our our big progress y store chain around us and they have a cater and department and they often used for during big parties and big tops of of girl chicken, but like really good grill chicken. Again, not the boiled of chicken, but are big tobes of potatoes.

And will you know, we'll get a bunch of those and show go over and you will get sort of arrange you know the plates and put the plates in. And like i'm okay with repetitive eating. I think more people are probably okay with repeated.

And they think I think that when you actually break down how many different breakfast variety, like variations, you had three. So like, I think when the people do this is more variety for dinner probably but like even there, you're probably five different types of dinners over the course of a week or a month. You know, if you have that ability to identify the things that you d like, again, no plan is going to work.

If you're eating stuff you don't like, it's not gonna forever. Nothing will you have to really enjoy. We're reading as long as these these, uh, variations of this meal are something you really enjoy and there are limited versions of them. The reproduce ability of that is simple. You know, I will take some time, but if you're fortune enough in our case, to have somebody who can prepare IT for you, now that's even part out of the equation, you know, and it's it's like IT just makes IT very simple.

But I do think when you tally up all the cost of medical care that that that are Spiked by having poor nutrition, and you then offset that by what IT might cost you to invest in a faster strategy like this catering trick or whatever IT might be, you be best off figure out a way that maybe realize some of your money to preparing this, because you know how how important is to your long term help in langevin. If you can figure out your nutrition issues, if everyone listened to pocket can figure out their nutrition issues, this whole world will be different. That is like we are the largest sources of disease and in pain, in discomfort, because people really struggle .

this and is a huge problem. I mean, the obit is an epidemic in this country, very, very serious. Also, a lot of highly progress foods are are more expensive than healthy foods when you really break IT down. Um even the even the Better source h high high quality foods are right there on par less than the process foods for sure. But couple other questions as IT relates um to training because I think that one one thing that a lot of people wonder about and maybe we could do this and kind of a true false method first IT just to get through some of these exactly men and women should train differently.

The science of IT will say false the and again not not to journalists, but kind of the point you touch out earlier today. I do find that casually interested women in training will migrate more towards certain types of fitness like kickboxing, like dancing, like.

you know, lowest circuit time yeah.

yeah, yeah and and I think again, whatever is that you're going to engage in regularly is what you should do physico logically. no. And I think if if if we can get more women to feel more comfortable in the gym, performing the same exercises in the same uh in in receiving the same train training benefits, in working on progressive overloaded and we hit the holy grail. But I think that um it's a it's A A big bridge that has to be gaps, ed, still because know there's just some reality to listen.

There are very my wife is a perfect example, this living a very complicated busy life um we have two Young boys, their twins and her her attention and focus is there, you know and it's like SHE doesn't do this for a living like I do and if he can get a decent workout and she's happy, you know but she's not necessarily working on her deadlift P R, you know. And so I think that that would help her and serve her in the long term to work on increasing her, her P, R, S and different lives and building her strength progressively, but not in her life right now, is not necessarily the courage to have the time to focus on that. So would you then discourage you know this other SHE might find interesting like some um boxing you know there there is a little um I remember the brand but like one of those punch able boxing stand up things here SHE enjoys IT you know and you know like anything to get to get you moving is going to be preferable. But I don't think that necessarily physiologically .

a difference.

You start way training pretty Young. Yes, I you know with my brother because he was old years, four years old son of messing around a ways probably twelve over thirteen of the five pound dumbo. Okay, yeah, you.

uh, Young kids should not work out with the weights. I don't know what the going a standards now they say, you know, shut down long bone growth or growth plates shot you this sort of thing. You've got two Young boys a door with kids, by the way.

Yeah, one of one of the things that is is very hard warming is to see you're in great shape. You're quite extremely bright. You know your craft.

You love your craft. You work with Jessie, who will talk about as well, which is great. There's a come rotaries there having great teammates part of a business or or to work out this just makes life Better.

This is, be honest, I am grateful to have great teammates for the pocket in my lab, of course as well um but um to see your boys and your dogs and that the whole picture you you am sure that has that a lot of context. Sm complexity that we don't know about and shouldn't know about, but it's a beautiful picture. And uh, will they wait, train? I've seen the videos of wonder both of them having .

from the body these kids are natural and tell you that onder even I don't even encourage IT. I'm not going to be the dad who is sit in there saying, let's go so yeah, we got two days and not going to do that. But they have a natural interest in the gym.

They just sometimes like to be out with daddy. So they will come out there. And you, I, I of the two of us, my wife, friend, I will be the one who has a little bit more of a longer leash to let them explore things, because I was dummy at times to, and figured out best through the mistake of the injury.

We in new science, we call that one .

trial learning. These guys could be matched with one trial learning because you know they go grab the bars of my the handles of my jam that's there because at a lower level to them and they're swinging around, they don't pull ubs on and naturally uncovered nothing from me. Um one will walk up to a deliver bar, stand over and naturally never let me do IT stands over there and this goes tries to pull IT so there there is a definitely inclination to liking the gym and I will fully support that but of course ah you know body IT will be good for quite .

what age you think is reasonable for kids to start expLoring a non body weight.

Um I think about thirteen, I think about thirty. And once purity, I think it's okay to start to no, because there are so much I even say for people that are like later in age, we're just starting out, learn with your own body. Wait first. There's plenty of resistance to be had by learning how to command your body in space.

So if you have never trained before, you're gna get very stimulated by doing launching and reverse launching, even learning some of the proper caption around movement through space pull ups, chaux changes of chAllenging for even people have twenty thirty years of experience in the gym. So there's a lot of stimulus to be had by body way. And jumping straight to dumb bells and bar bells is actually doing yourself of the service.

You can learn Better command of your body in space so that when you go back to the bigger lives um you're going to have an easier time sort of progressively loading them in building up that foundation of strain on that saying that you have to become a master coastal ic athlete before can touch a barr bell. That's not even true. I'm just saying there's so much capacity.

Kids are going be doing this anyway. And really, just if you look at general play, they are jumping, they are launching, they are climbing, they are polling like that's what they do, you know so um why I don't know where the avoid itself like structured training is for Younger kids again, provided they are using, by the way, maybe um you know less politician movements or something like that. You know things that are certainly overloaded movements.

I think we should encourage kids to do more. There's a lot of uh, obese and kids on the rise also and that is incredibly the know disconcerting to me. So I think and I hope he doesn't come from the advice of some that say we will wait until you're older to start doing something like that's a way worst, then engaging in something smart.

Now we get kicked out of the house on your T, T. My mom kick us out, right? I had a huge pack boys a little on my street, but we get kicked outside like litter.

You're loud, right? No television, but there were video games, of course. But we were kicked out the house. We had play first of the skateboarding socket and to find our trouble.

Yeah, but to post training nutrition, we're the same age years ago, I sort of a neurotic about the idea that I had to ingest a certain amount of carbo hydrates and proteins within two hours. Then he was ninety minutes of training. I confess I get if I trained hard.

So i'm trying about the resistance training, not the running, but the resistance training. You know, sixty to nine minutes later i'm really hungry. But there have been days when I just skipped and then the hunger passes.

And then later I eat. I eat more, my twice, much later. Yeah, that's just the way sometimes schedules go.

But what are your thoughts in terms of the the nutrition science, the try the training related effects of um the post training meal? Is that something that you try to to get? Is that something you think people should pay attention to?

Um so that that science is actually probably been the the one change the most in my lifetime, honestly, because I I I again were the same age and I was a falling for the same uh trap you where I would really be focused on like risking speeding tickets, driving home from the gym. I I did. But um thankfully, that's been sort of the bumped in your body isn't just rushing through you know these certain periods of time to utilize the nutrient in our body but are able to partition them and use them over a long, much grateful oration.

Up to now they're saying you know three to four hours after training five hours after training, you can still see the the benefits of of a lot of that is just you know I think there's a consistency element to IT um that just utilizing a post workout window or a post workout meal, even if its within two hours or one hour, is just integrating the habit of saying, listen, I just did this activity and now want we planted some of what I lost the energy that I used to perform. Know the exercise that I did and just getting into the routine, knowing that the the engine is ultimately fed by what we put in in and the concept of replenishing the fuel loss is still the concept, I think, again, different and mechanism, but still important in terms of fueling overall performance. So in the the pretty period of time gives us a chance to actually have a longer window because of that.

If those nutrition are are obtained, pre workout is not like they're going on in that hour that you've trained. They're still there available for your body of you. So you know, I think it's important to get one of the two you write, at least make sure you you're consistently uh, uh, having one or two or you might risk going through all these periods of having no nutrition to support your efforts, not only where your work has potentially suffer in terms of the output, but then you are also not providing body and ability to capitalize on a um an opportunity to feed, IT and refuel and recover.

So um i'm not very dogmatic about what specifically to to eat free or post you know work out. But I do think you should have protein um surrounding your your training, whether that that be had a time or after protein could be a little bit hard to digest for some people. So if you do that, we work out and then you're finding your work out slogging because you don't feel good, then only put that after your meal.

But this whole claspt of the urgency of time has thankfully been removed. And we can just learn to eat a little bit more um responsibly and drive more responsibly. So we're not you know trying to rush on from the gym in risk, know killing people on the way.

You know, I think I think it's a but I think it's great because I think that that was something that I just show cases, a belief that people had for so long that has since been proven to be not that important. And there there there's a tip of the cap tods research in a good way where it's like, right? I think we can all agree that this is not necessarily true anymore.

And look at yourself and say, oh my god, I did that so often. I bit that one who client sinker but um but then realize, okay, we could always make a change in the good thing about nutrition is those changes can happen the very next time you go to eat and you'll start to see the benefits of that. So i'm not a big believer in that strict approach to pre or post work out.

Um I mean even as far as per workout supplements, um like people don't take them, like people don't like them. They don't take them. They don't like they're not necessarily even being used as the nutritive side of the press kit. They're just more new use to fuel the workout. Um give for me .

it's uh water and some form of caffeine yeah I mean.

whatever you know, again, I think it's important I do think it's important to maintain a high level output. So if your free work and nutrition requires a stimulate in order to help you do that, or if your preview nutrition is causing you to have a hard time the train because you're feeling full or stomach cake or something else that's not achieving what you trying to do, the ultimate goal is to still be able perform at the highest level. So whatever you nutrition is require to allow you to still do that. That is proof the most important factor .

of all of the great. I love the very clear and rational approach. Don't guess anything right before you work out or near you're work out that's going to make your work out worse. So so it's so simple and yet you don't hear this because I think people think, oh, they must have a previa, they must have a post work out again.

even if there are the benefits that are to be had from what is being suggested is going to be easily offset by the fact that you can perform at an output capable driving any change so that, that would be much gate. The fact that you not outweigh in those benefits of whatever your approach took and they struggling through your workout.

Now for me, the best workout is a good nigh sleep, hydration, caffeine.

music. Yes, IT works and impose where I do.

I do find I get quite hungry and one quite a bit more.

And let's a natural response. The body is going to in most people want to do that, and I think this should be fed. I work out, as you know, again, a lot of my posting on instagram will happen at ten o'clock and nine ten thirty and nine eleven at night because I am actually training there.

And that's where i'm taking those little breaks in between the sets to actually film or post something. But like I then go inside a dinner so i'm eating eleven and clock at night. You know it's not necessarily ideal on that recommending that is a tool for anybody. I think IT dispelled one thing. I've never been a believer in Kenny cards six.

That makes no sense to me. It's gone. All of the science of metabolic that i've seen, right? I think as long as you can serve like napping, I talk to matt Walker, one of the great sleep researchers, why we sleep as his own pocket about sleep, tremendous researcher, public communicator about sleep.

And he said, naps are fine, provided they don't interrupt your ability to sleep well at night. Simple, so you can sleep from eight to nine P. M, and then go to a thirty minute launch, and they can't sleep at night cafe, a little different because would argue the architecture of sleep can be disrupted that.

But if you can eat dinner late, carbon hoards late, actually need carbon hoods in nine in order to be able to sleep. Whenever I ve got a low carbo hydra pe regime in the evening, I have a hard time falling leave, just too alert, and so I E carbo hurds in the evening to restore nike aging. But also in order to make sure that I can fall asleep.

I, I actually, again, obviously it's already late at night by the time i'm done eating, but like I can fall asleep within five ten minutes of finishing my meal.

You because I I I do think that they have that same effect on me um but I never I am not bothered by the feeling of fullness on little sleep because of a feeling of fullness um but I do like I do like the fact that I I as if I am at least replenishing what was lost through very hard training and I do like to back IT up with A A dinner. I don't need to eat smaller amounts. Some people can have that much. I will say after a hard like workout, I don't have the same appetite that I do after, let's say, an upper body work out. You can really discuss my my whole feeling of of well being.

You wanted eat less after you train your life. I do yeah, wow, the opposite .

because I just feel I can feel sick to my stomach.

You're clearly training harder. I i've seen what you do train very intense.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I I think it's important. I mean, I think that again, it's that trade off between if you're not gona train for a long period of time, then you're going to want to train harder.

And again, I actually feel like contrary to what people might think as you age, you're Better off training harder for short a period of time. Um it's always within the the realm of of safe training. I mean, I think that's what I like to think. So I bring to the table like an approach that smarter so I can train harder you know like not doing the dumb things I did when I was a kid and with that trade off being a harder trainer um I think I get the results that I want because i'm able to really push IT and then back often and again the the meal feels like almost a uh a physico logical reward for the hard effort I put in the gym knowing i'm also replenishing and setting the stage for the next day to be another successful day of training. You know or maybe not about five times a week I train, you know but ah I think that it's it's a lot less it's A A I I say is a lot less scientific than we want to make IT in as IT seems to be coming back off in times like the thing that works for you is really the most important thing because it's ultimately getting arrest. They're doing what you do is, is really the thing that provides the best benefit.

absolutely. And you can you know there are many things that I would say hallMarks of jeff cavalier, but one of one of them is certainly consistency. You you make that happen one way or another.

huge. I mean, consistency really is determined. And and and I know that, that is the hardest part for people, that and why people tend to look for the shortcut because consistency is the part that, that becomes the biggest chAllenge. But if you could find and listen, if you could find the O, O through. What I am trying to encourage here is that if you could find the nutrition approach, if you could find the training approach, if you try find the training split, if you try all those things that encourage you to want to go the gym, like you locked at the point said, you actually look forward to .

giving a doing here. I look, I love IT. I look forward to I mean, it's actually this morning one of our our one of our t mates for the podcast, I I got work out and and half through, I just turned to him and I said, I never figure out what that feels so good, but IT feels so good.

I just, I really enjoy IT and IT lets and I love to eat and IT lets me eat and I love the way makes you feel afterward. I don't understand this, not enjoying the gym cardio is a little different. I I always.

The first ten or twenty minutes of the job, I mildly load the middle third. And by the end, I think this is the greatest thing everyone want to do IT all time. And then that feeling evaporate ates .

before the next time I got me IT again. exactly. yeah. I I think if people could, if if we had one gift we could give to everybody would be the love of fitness, right? If they could be stowed, the love of fitness IT would change the entire world, you know. But I think when you hear things like this that like he that will work and that will work too and this will work too you know rather than the dogmatic one way only approach um which could be become discoursing for people and then I think IT becomes a little bit of lifting like i've never tried that. I've actually never tried a total bi split or never tried you know that style of eating like IT becomes encourage that you might want to explore and then you might finally get locked in so i've really like this and then .

you're often run in let's what I so enjoy about your content. I we would be remiss if we didn't briefly discuss Jessie. Um one of the great pleasures for me in in watching your content and learning from IT over the years is that you took on you decided mentor somebody, Jessie.

And there's there's some poking fun back and forth between the two of you which is very using, but I have to say IT inspired me to do something uh early on and developing this podcast as I have A A Young in turn who um has helped me with some of the research and his body, his interesting in science. He's about to go off to college, but he also got really into fitness. We would watch the video, guys, he was helping me get the instagram content out early on.

And one thing there was just IT was social pleasure to be able to pass along knowledge in and of course, i'm learning from him is always the way I was we learn from teaching and we learn from students. Um but it's been great to see Jesse's progress. It's amazing i've gotten to meet him in person, uh, just now and and he has grown.

He's changed physically. And and I think that you mention a love of fitness. I think that in the one of the best ways to be consistent is to take on the responsibility of teaching others once one has proficiency in something. So maybe you just tell us a little bit about how that's going, how how is Jessie doing and where does he need a little more work where he thriving? I'm impressed by the progress.

Well, we have been physically. We can obviously see the changes, know the list of things to work on. Our is a mense is so long for him to continue to improve. But now actually, you, in reality, Jessie, the story of Jessie was that I knew Jessie prior to starting even athletes and maritime.

T to think the funny thing is the very first video that was ever posted on my channel was a video that he shot as I don't know, a thirteen year old or something and I said he did just film this for a second. I was over there training members of the family so um he then off off the college went into film, realized he had much Greener pastures at athlete next instead of becoming the next school says or something and he decided to come work with me. And and you know the expectations in the beginning, we're just to edit videos or are just to um you help with various aspects of like my day to day that I don't think I was equipped really handle and grow the business anymore.

So um then you look at by by virtual being in that environment. There's an interest, I think if I worked in a gym, I might become interested in working out and though that my is not a commercial gym is sitting right behind my office you know um there became an interesting wanting to work out a little bit and I wasn't even an intentional experiment to put Jessie there. I just not thought that he's a very likeable person.

He has a very funny personalities. He's also the every man know in some ways you know, as i'm sure maybe you experience sometimes, like i'm the guy that this is comes naturally for me is what people will say like this is what you do for a living. This is what like there's there's an element of disconnect in terms of the relate ability because I do do this for a living. I can't deny that I do work with professional athletes late. There's a level of interest in this move beyond.

But for him he is the kid who wants to train maybe if he roles out of bed before eleven I am and no doesn't have a day on friday night but that's the guy everybody can relate to and watching him transform um and I love the fact that even the interest level was up and down like IT wasn't consistent for him because he was like you know part interested and then maybe not just for three months and then interested in and I never pushed IT on this again. This was no orchestrate experiment for me IT was just like if you want to do this, then do this and also from a standpoint of like um lending my help expertise to him, like I said with my son, i'm not gonna forced to anybody. I don't want to do that anybody.

I don't think that that's ever going to Spark that desire for long term adoption. So he got more interested. He started to learn more about IT.

He was just the videos that we're filming. He films the videos that we're filming. And he's learning through saying is becoming more of a student of the field.

And I have to say his knowledge in the field has grown with the the grow of his physic. And he's put into practice some of the things that I say. He's put into practice things.

He hears other places, and he winds up improving as he goes. And he once have started to love this like he, you know, never thought he would. But it's great to see anybody grow and whether that be physically or that be emotionally, or whether be, you know, just in in their career, it's great to see somebody grow.

And I I like to teese him funny admission here there are times when the jabs that I will throw at him or something that we might know ahead of time what i'm going to say to him um people will say you are so mean to him. I can't believe in your gear and so abusive you like to. Honestly, we laughed after it's over. It's good. We're good. So know, of course.

But but his tough fer than he looks as well.

He.

like he got big bee's looks more manly than I do.

I can't grow a beard. I do. I mean, believe me, he's totally alpha and I like you know quickly be becoming the second the second star of the show but like you know he's definitely um um contributed and people enjoy his presence for sure .

yeah I certainly do. And I think you point out he's kind of a proxy and a template for for everybody we can relate to him because even though have trained for many years, you know it's been a struggle even to graduate school post or you know made IT happen one where another, but with more less attention and admittedly dly through you know waxing, winning levels of motivation. Although I unfortunate, I do enjoy IT.

What I think is nice about IT to is that it's a realistic expectation that we said, I think you know is you're showcasing what the journey actually looks like and he's been on the journey for, again, devotedly for, let's say, the last year and a half.

But on the journey for five years, if I could make the gains that he did, starting when I try started training IT, fourteen, fifteen and you're say hi by twenty, you're going to have the strength levels he does, the physic that he does. The knowledge that you've gained like that seems like a blank of an eye. Now looking back, you know, at forty six years, all of them like holiday, I think IT took me to twenty years, you know, fifteen and twenty years.

So you to just even started get into a group for him to do IT in a period of five years. IT doesn't seem long whether there's people that will criticize his journey like you take IT so long and so like there's such an instant gratification that people seek. Luckily, that's the minority most people are. Like this is amazing, you know. But I think that IT becomes very uplifting because not only is related, but the journey is real and people can and people can appreciate that like this is what will happen if you actually put in consistent hard work and you'll watch him transform, go back and watch the videos like you look at. We like to often times throw back to videos where he appeared, as you know, smaller Jesse, but also shy Jessie, arms cross, head down, not making I contact with the camera know to wear now he's got his own skids and intro, you know, it's like it's it's it's funny because of the confidence with with the growth of physical confidence to which is great.

So press with his world and all we living in IT.

as they say, well.

on behalf of myself and all the listeners, I really want to thank you first all for the discussion today. I learned an immense amount. Even though I thought I knew your content well, I still learned a mense amount.

Many things we could deploy from when to stretch, how to stretch the skipping rope talked about nutrition. We talked about, he called training regions. And what I love about all of this now that you've given us is that there's there's a backbone of logic, you know and some consistent themes indeed about consistency.

But the logical backbone, I think, is what um will enable people to really show up to the table and stay there uh for training consistently over time. And as you said, the gift of fitness is an immense scape. I can't thank you enough. I know you're incredibly busy human being with kids and dogs and in a marriage .

and I I am happy I was able to make IT work because I really i've been watching stuff for a while and I really I love the science of IT. I like what you think um and I just know I was i'm just really fortunate that I was able to do that well.

I feel very gratified in here in that honor to have you here. So thank you so much. Thank you.

Thank you for joining me for my discussion with jeff cavalier. I hope you found IT as interesting and as actionable as I did. If you're learning from and or enjoying this podcast, please subscribe our youtube channel.

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