Jocko Willink: How to Become Resilient, Forge Your Identity & Lead Others
03:59:35 Share

Welcome to the huberman lab podcast, where we discuss science and science space tools for everyday life. I am Andrew huberman and am a professor of neurobiology and opened ology at stanford school of medicine today. My guest is joko willink.

Joko willing is a retired navy seal and author of numerous important books on leadership and team dynamics. And the host of the joo podcast during his twenty year career with the U. S. navy. Joko third was seela three as commander of task unit user in remote iraq and elsewhere in the middle ast, as well as deployments in asia and europe.

After retiring from the navy, jaco used his experience and knowledge clean from his time in the seal teams as a way to develop tools that anybody can use to develop their leadership skills, both for leading themselves and for leading others. That took the form of several important books, the first of which was published in two thousand and fifteen and is entitled extreme ownership, how U. S.

Seals lead and win. He has also authored several books for kids about leadership, personal development and how to navigate various aspects of life. I've read both extreme ownership in the way of the warrior kid, and I found them to be immensely useful in terms of actionable information and understanding of oneself and different kinds of relationships, both in and out of the workplace. Typically guess on the huberman lab podcast are scientists and or clinical IT was some time ago that I was a guest on the joko podcast.

And during the course of our conversation on his podcast, we quickly realize that many of the science space tools that my laboratory has focused on and that i've used over the years and shared on the hub room in lab podcast had direct overlap in parallel with many of the tools that jaco and other members of the sea al teams had arrived, that independently, that is, without knowledge of the underlying science. And in fact, he had many more tools that he had incorporated during his ears in the sea el teams, as well as in business leadership, in family and elsewhere in life, that I quickly realized that would be an enormously valuable conversation to have him on this podcast in order to share those tools with the general public. During today's episode, we discuss numerous tools that joko has taught and used over the years in a number of different context, including tools for generating more physical energy and for generating more focus and cognitive energy, and for navigating sticking points, that is, how to deal with lack of motivation, how to deal with difficult relationships in the workplace and elsewhere, and perhaps most importantly, how to think about and navigate the self.

In fact, we spend quite a bit of time talking about this notion of the self and once self identity, and how self identity plays into our ability to engage in actions of specific types consistently over time, where IT can hold us back how to gain Better perspective and how to help others gain Better perspective so that we can work Better with them and them with us. We also go deep into the likely scientific mechanisms underlying why the tools that joko teachers and users are so effective. In fact, one thing that you'll immediately notice that jacka was writing things down and I was writing things down throughout the conversation.

And that just reflects the fact that he's not just an immensely powerful teacher. He's also a practitioner in an avid learner. He's always seeking knowledge. So we kick back and forth our ideas about what likely does and does not underlie different tools and techniques, focusing, of course, mostly on what works in the practical sense in the world.

What I can assure you is that by the end of today's episode, thanks to jocose immense generosity and curiosity, you will come away with a large number of tools and much richer understanding of how to navigate and enhance mental health, physical health and performance in all aspects of life. Before we begin, i'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and researchers at stanford. IT is, however, part of my desired effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science related tools to the general public.

In keeping with that theme, i'd like to thank sponsors of today's podcast. Our first sponsor is element. Element is an electric light drink with everything you need and nothing you don't.

That means plenty of salt, magnesium um and potash, this so called electronic and no sugar. Now salt magnesium um in patasse are critical to the function of all the cells in your body, in particular to the function of your nerve cells, also called neurons. In fact, in order for your neurons to function properly, all three electro lights need to be present in the proper ratio.

And we now know that even slight reductions in electronic concentrations or dehydration of the body lead to deficits. And cognitive and physical performance element contains a science back electorate ratio of one thousand milligrams, that one gram of sodium, two hundred milligrams of potassium and sixty milligrams of magnesium. I typically drink element first in the morning when I wake up in order to hydrates my body and make sure I have enough electrical lites.

And while I do any kind of physical training, and after physical training as well, especially if i've been sweating a lot, if you'd like to try element, you can go to drink element, that element t dot com slash huberman to claim a free element sample pack with your purchase. Again, that drink element L M N T dot com slash huberman. Today's episode is also brought to us by waking up, waking up as a meditation APP that includes hundreds of meditation programs, mindfulness training, yoga eja, recessions, n sdr non sleep depressed protocols.

I started using the waking up up a few years ago because even though i've been doing regular meditation since my teens, and I started doing yoga ea about a decade ago, my dad mentioned to me that he had found an APP turned out to be the waking up APP, which could teach you meditations of different durations, and that had a lot of different types of meditations to place the bringing body into different states, and that he liked IT very much. So I gave the waking up up a try, and I too found IT to be extremely useful, because sometimes I only have a few minutes to meditate. Other times I have longer to meditate.

And indeed, I love the fact that I can explore different types of meditation to bring about different levels of understanding about consciousness, but also to place my brain and body into lots of different kinds of states, depending on which meditation I do. I also love that the waking up up has lots of different types of yoga eja sessions. Those who you don't know, yogananda is a process of lying very still, but keeping an active mind.

It's very different than most meditations, and there is excEllent scientific data to show that yoga ea, and something similar to IT called non sleep deep breath or n sdr, can greatly restore levels of cognitive and physical energy even, which is to a short ten minute session. If you'd like to try the waking up up, you can go to waking up dot com slash huberman and access a free thirty day trial. Again, that's waking up dot com slash huberman to access a free thirty day trial. And now for my discussion with joko willink. Joko .

willink, welcome.

Thanks, man. I'm super excited and super happy to have you here.

Glad to be here. I know that you and I did five and a half hours on my podcast, so a schedule is clear. Let's go.

Let's go. And actually in, people will see the joo go drinks. Uh, this is not some sort of promotional by me, but these are the the energy drinks are drinks.

So this could be called the bring your own IT is the energy drink I drink. And no, i'm not told to promote that or paid to promote that, just the one that I drink. So there you go.

No one intended. I was just saying to our producer a moment ago that rarely do I sit down into a podcast with somebody that skilled in podcasting. Lex reman would be the only person that i've had on this podcasting, believe, who's also a podcasting. Since you're podcasting many other things, I can have a little bit intimidated.

Well, it's a weird thing to actually call a skill because it's something that I just kind of start to doing. It's something that you just kind of start to doing. It's something that lets just kind of start to doing, and I never practiced that.

I didn't sit down before my first podcasts. Think about how I should deliver things. I just kind of did IT. So maybe it's just lock more than skill.

Well, you do not actually go back further than that conversation that we had on your podcast. Think I might have been twenty fourteen, twenty fifteen and you were on the tim various podcast and the time I was living with my girlfriend, we had moved from Sandy ago to the bay area. We're living this little tiny apartment in a basement in oakland's ying to save up I A place for rent of place that was decent to live.

And and we both knew a lot of team guys. SHE knew more team guys than I did and Sandy ago and dated a few just to be direct. Great woman. Those guys, we're called to me mostly.

And I remember when I saw the photo on the top card for timm's podcast, who was your face? I said, do you know this guy from sano? And he goes, no, but if you had to draw a navy seal, that's what you draw. So I think for a lot of people, you embody their notion of a number of different things, some of what you talk about, but some of which, when you open up a bit and really get specific about work in the military and work in daily life and what IT is to be you, but really what is to be a human being, some important contradictions also emerge.

right? Obviously, discipline as a theme that people associate with you, right? In my view, and I think in the view of a lot of people, you in body disciplines, so today I definite want to talk about routines, but also mindsets, but also things that you do in ways that approach things that might not contradict, but not be so obvious to people, might be a little bit counter intuitive.

And in addition to that, you have a lot of different aspects to your life addition of running businesses. You are a family man of children and married a long time, and so you have a lot of knowledge from different domains of life. So with your permission, i'd like to dive into all of them over the next twenty six hours.

Let's dive.

great. I'm fascinated by this idea of sense of self. I feel like all of us can look back to a time early in life when we first had some experience, could be in art class, could be fishing, could be sport. Doesn't really matter what the exact experience was, but where we first realized that there are really cool things in the world like something going to turn us on at the level of excitement. Or maybe scared us or something like that. Do you have any recollection of such an event? Maybe not the first one, but you ever remember hearing or seeing something as a Young kid and maybe you tell us how Young and just thinking like, yeah, more of that, please.

A lot of times when people ask questions along with this line of, like, when was there a moment, when was there a moment that you realize discipline or when was there a moment you realize leadership or when was there a moment you realized detachment kind of like the question, when was there a moment you realized, for lack of a Better way, saying that i'm a person, right? I'm, i'm, i'm a person with my own thoughts and I can make things happen.

And for me, all those answers are usually fairly gradual. You know there's like a little thing that indicates and you get a clue and then you move a little bit further down that road, then you get another clue and you move a little bit further down that road and you get another clue. Um so that's what I would say for me.

Life was like when you were when I was a little kid, I was kind of slowly discovering that I was a person, I was a human. I remember my mom took me shopping. I I was probably about ten years old, and I needed to get pants for school, and my mom took me shopping. And when I went to into the store, there was a girl that was, I don't know what they're called in the store retail sales girl, he was probably about sixteen.

and I started .

chatting her up, right? And I kind recognized IT a little bit. But I thought I didn't too. And I just was chat of this girl, and I was make laugh. I was having a good time with the whole thing, and you put them on the pants and spinning around like, and he was laughing.

And I remember when we left the store with the pants and my mom was sort of talking to me about the fact that what what are you trying to do to that girl? I was, I was thinking to myself, I kind of liked that crosses was pretty. And I don't know why that popped into my head, but I just remember they can hey, but there's a whole world out there and let's go make that happen. Yeah, it's a great .

story because IT, I think IT really speaks this thing that you mention, which is that when we first start to realize we have a sense of self IT has something to do with causing effect on the world like we can have an impact in some way on things outside of us, outside of our home. You, i've lately have been reading lot of psychology, and i've been listening to some your content.

I finites want to talk you about a study that you covered related to these is a brutal experiment with these kids that either had studied or didn't have stutter. I want to get into a little bit later, but you know what we do and how we treat people and how we receive feedback and give feedback has a big impact. But I think some of that happens just in our own relationship to things in the world.

The older hungarian psychologist, i'm learning how this idea of two kinds of people, they literally thought there were two kinds of people. There are generators and projectors. And generators are people that are just from a very Young age.

They realized they can impact other people, positive ly negatively. And they they wanted create things in the world. They want to generate stuff.

And I wow, I can actually like build stuff and break stuff and blow stuff up, maybe, but also help things. And and then there are these projectors that like to just kind of reflect on what they see. And they made a really important point.

I think that it's not the generators are good and projectors are bad. The world needs both that they really work in a kind of sympathy. But your story captures the essence of what IT is to be a generator, which is that by doing certain things, you can have an impact and IT feeds back to you and it's likely that they receive something .

as well yeah and where this all came to fruition as I as I now piece together, as you talk to the stuff, look, when I joined the military, you join the military and you get a blank slate. So no one cares where you came from. No one cares what you did.

You are the captain of the football team cap in the socking team. No one cares. No one cares what your grades.

No one cares what you ve got on the S. A. T. Or the unknown cares about anything. You're a blank slate. And then with that blank slate, IT is, hey, if you do this thing, if you perform this task and you perform IT well, you will get recognition, you will get, you will hopefully get more control over your own destiny, which is the ultimate in compensation for for human beings to have more control over your own destiny is the ultimate compensation.

You know, you and I were talking before we hit record, like you can have all the money in the world, but if you don't control what you're doing everyday, or at least you don't control most of what you're doing, not worth IT the reason people try and make money so they can have more autonomy in their life. And so in the military, IT becomes very clear. That became very clear to me very quickly that if I performed well, I actually got a lot more freedom with what I did, even in boot camp.

You know, if you pass an inspection in boot camp, you don't have to redo your knocker or you don't have to make your bed again because you did IT right the first time. And so you have an extra fifteen minutes. And and so for me, really, that's when I started to realize, oh, what i'm doing right now is going to impact not only what's going to happen to me in the next hour, but in the next two years, three years, five years.

And I think that's the biggest miss that we have when we're growing up. And and I know you had your chAllenges and tribulations as you were growing up because you didn't realize, oh, what i'm doing right now is going to affect where i'm going to be in the future. And IT didn't happen until you were out of high school and you went to unior college and you know like a way to second, I can actually put my life together in a positive way. When you're fourteen, you're thinking, hey, what i'm going to do tomorrow that's basically future Operations are what .

what I was like, where is where am I going to the sky, which where i'm going to hit escape boarding and where we going to play games tonight, what girls that we're going to hang out with that .

was kind of the mindset IT. yeah. And then at some point you learned and so did die. Oh, the way the the actions that I take now are either going to positive impact my future, or they gna negatives impact my future. And the the the more I focused on doing things that are going to passively impact my future, the Better my life became. And I think that's a very huge lesson to learn that I know I didn't figure out for a quite some .

time at the idea of investment in withdrawal. Understanding that early in life in terms of health behaviors and intellectual behaviors and and you are point about the military is a really interesting one. I never thought about the military that way that there's a blank slate when you get in there.

And before we started, we were talking a little bit about the kinds of mindsets and people that the military attracts. And um I love you to elaborate on that. Again, you mentioned something interesting, this notion of gerson, interesting word in its own right.

Um what kind of people do you think the military attracts? And then within the military, do you start to see some kind of predictable by vacations where certain people go down one track and other people go down another? I've have a few friends from the, as we both know, and i've heard sometimes about the distinction between officers and enlisted guys this kind of thing. But maybe this the question i'm asking is more across the board for all of military and for really for people listening, whether not they are interested in military or not for their own, for their own life. I think there's an interesting less than this idea of who who is attracted to the military is like people who want to instill order on themselves or is IT people want and still water around .

other people or both? Yeah, there's there's A A really good book. And I did that. I ended up doing about four podcast on this book, which is called the psychology of military incompetence. And when I first saw an amazing title, I know when I first saw that title, I thought to myself, oh, you know, this is some some academic that's going to look at the military and bash IT.

And but I did a little research, and I turned out that the guy that had written the book, and I can't think of his name right now, he was a guy that had served in world war two, was wounded. I mean, this guy had I I was talking about and it's really an obvious concept. Won't you think about IT? And is the basic premises this the military, when you look at IT from the outside, it's this orderly place.

It's a place where everything has a place. It's A A place where if you have a certain rank on your shoulder, you will command respect and people have to listen to you. That's what IT looks like.

So it's an attractive place for people that have an authoritarian mindset, for people that wanted just, hey, question what i'm saying, just shut up and do what I tell you do. There's people that love that there, want to live like that. You've work for them. I've work for them. We we've experienced that those type of people throughout our lives, the authority, an mindset that just want to bark orders and have people listen to them.

And so when they when those people are fourteen years older, sixteen years older, eighteen years old, they look at the military and they see a uniform and they say people saluting and they see orders being Carried out, and they think, that's where i'm gonna go and I can get the respect I deserve. And the military certainly attract people like that. And those people that have that highly disciplined and orderly mindset can do well inside the military, especially in gerson.

And I had to again, we were talking about the earlier of the word garish. I don't think there's a civilian equivalent to this word, but IT basically means the non combat situation. So when you're out on the parade field, when you when you're going through schooling where there's no combat involved, when you're marching like those kind of things, we call that gerson.

It's in the rear, it's not in combat. And the people with in the thorn mindset actually do pretty well in gerish situations. why? Because things are orderly and you can predict what's going to happen and you do get a certain issue of and that gear is going to be delivered on time and you're going to shoot this number of rounds down at the range and everything is going to go according to plan.

That's what garson is. And so those people join the military, they are tractors, that and the end of doing well in peace time. Now, unfortunately for them, combat is a lot different.

Nothing goes the way it's supposed to go. The bullets don't get deliver on time. The enemy has a vote on the way things are going to unfold, and you end up in combat, in being in very chaotic situations.

So the type of person that thrives in combat has a more open mind, has a more flexible mind, is paying more attention to the input that they're receiving as opposed to someone. The third minds, they don't listen anybody. They make up their own mind.

They bark orders with someone that has a more open mindset. They're listening. They are, they're taking input.

They're evolving their plan. And those type of people excel in a combat situation. Now, unfortunately, and this sort of the stereotype too, you take that that.

Dog of war and you put him back into a gas or environment. He doesn't do well, right? He's not showing up on time for the inspection. He doesn't have is he doesn't get in, get his haircut.

He does not have his weapon and clean the way he supposed to be clean, because he's got his weapon ready for combat, not ready for inspection. And and so you get this there. There are these two different types of people.

And of course, with those two different types of people, there's degrees going one direction other. But what you hope for is someone that can play the game on the gears inside. And yet when IT comes time to go on to combat, they can also open their mind, be flexible, be creative.

And that's what you really want, is you want someone that is very good at solving problems. And to do that, you need to have a creative open mind to figure out how we're going to do or something. So I think that's a stereotype.

The stereotype is that everyone in the military is sort of robotic and falling into the hierarchy. And we bark orders and people follow waters. And that's just not true. There is an element of truth to IT, but is not the whole truth. And certainly, if you look at the history, the people that are that excel in combat are the people that maybe have a little bit of rebellion streak, people that have that are just more creative and more open minded.

Some of my friends from the seal teams will sometimes throw out stereotypes about the different divisions in the military. Is there any truth to this idea that you air force types are one way and marines are one way and navis one way? Arma, is that a certain way like sort of A A general contra personally? Or is that just kind of inside ball joking around?

It's a little bit of both. I mean, certainly the marine core is steped in tradition. And you, if you, if you make a guess at what a marine, when, if you meet, or you had to, had to guess what a marine going to be like, you provide, give me prety close.

I mean, marines have an incredible program to induct ate their people into the culture of the marine core. And the marine core has an incredibly strong culture, is a powerful culture. I love the mariner work with the ringer attn, and they're outstanding.

As a generality, certainly, you could make those assumptions about the marines general. And now that mean that everyone is the same, same thing with the army, same thing with the air force, same thing with the navy, you've got these kind of stereotypes that exists for a reason. You know, it's interesting to its, uh, one of my friend's named ben millian wrote an incredible book called by water beneath the walls which i've given him a huge hassle about because is the worst title of all time.

But it's it's certainly the best book written about the seal team's history and where the seal teams came from and and it's interesting it's something that I had heard from a CEO officer that had to given a speech years ago, has changed a command. What he said was, hey, listen, he is trying to emphasize why the seal teams were good. And one of the things he said was, you know, in in the army and he was talking to stork y, who was, hey, in the army, if you start to lose a battle, you can just retreat, run away.

In the navy, traditionally, we're fighting on board a ship. And if that ship, if we can't run away, we're fighting. If we lose, we die. So seals can quit this sort of a little over the top expression.

But when you take that a little bit further, when you look at the history of the navy, if you we were in the navy hundred and fifty years ago, you would have to go on deployment ment, you would take your ship and you would sail somewhere and you wouldn't able to talk to anymore. So you would have to understand what IT is you were trying accomplish. I think just go out there and make IT happen.

That's decentralized command, and that's something that exists in the seal teams, without question, very decentralized command. And that's one of the one of the absolute strength of the field teams is you've got leaders at every level inside the organization that if they don't know exactly if you're not told what to do, they're going to go OK. I know haven't been told what to do, i'm going to go figure out.

And that's one of the strength of the sea l teams. We don't. We also, we have more doctor now. But when I came in the sea l teams, there was no doctor. There was all word of mouth.

And so the the army in the marine core, if you have to conduct an ambush, you can pull out a manual, and you can look up how to conduct the bush pti ish, how to conduct IT. And it's all written very clear. And their great dockers, the FM70 k infiniti patoo in squad.

I think, is the army doctrine of campus embedded in there forever.

And it's a great manual, and you can pull that thing out and you have a place to start from in the seal teams. We didn't have that at all. So you would hear from your patton's chief, this is how you conduct ambush.

And he had heard IT from his platoon chief, who heard IT from his platoon chief, who heard IT from his potent chief. And opportune f wasn't so IT getting passed down. But you can make adjustments to IT and you you can you can alter the plan a little bit because, hey, the terrain is different or hey, the the the night vision we now have.

So there's changes that we can make because there's no doctor. So not having any doctor in many ways is a strength. Also IT can be a weakness because if you've got a new platoon commander has never done a an ambush before and he has no idea what is doing.

This potent chief has been out of the loop for a long time and he does know what he's doing. There is no way. There is no reference.

So there are strength and weaknesses, just like any characteristic, right? Everybody's characteristic. You've got strength and you've got weaknesses.

And your weaknesses can be strengthen. You're strengthen, be weaknesses. To get back to your original question, are there stereotypes inside of each of the military brands? sure.

But are there outliers? And each of the military branches there are? absolutely. And that's why you can't judge about by its .

cover for people listening this who are not in the military, maybe have some military lining age in their family or not, but who want to understand a little bit Better about how structure and lack of structure can both support being effective in in life, in relationships, in daily life, in fitness, in business, in school. I think goes of the big domains, in creative endeavors. I think you'll be useful for them. I'd understand a little bit about how you, in particular, baLances discipline and structure with there, I say lack of discipline instructions. You could .

actually just say the word freedom, right?

Because that's what IT turns yeah or maybe even play you know, I bring this up in part because i've seen some posts that you put up of you you playing the guitar with friends or music. One of them was a tribute to someone who I either was killed in combat or passed away. So no, these moments of connection between people sometimes are working together, but sometimes are in relaxation and play in these kind of things.

And I think that was really important post for people to see that while jock, a willink, kicks back with the guitar, not trying to take over stages. Maybe you are, maybe have a plan anyone can do IT, you probably be the one. But what is the baLance for you in terms of structure and lack of structure? And i'm not going to ask for your daily routine.

We know that you get up early, you train, but I do have some specific questions I think would be helpful and putting some meat on the the kind of the notions about you. And again, this isn't topick in to your life, but more to grab ots topick into your life. So a question I asked you in the law because it's one that you know having senior content for a long time and really benefit from IT.

I was curious, you get up early at about four thirty. You train every morning. How long do you train for? And is there any global structure to that? And of course, everyone needs to different programs.

But do is IT like way training one day, cardio training the next day. You combining them is is always hours, is always half an hour. I think people would benefit from getting a little bit more understanding of what that looks like for you with the cover that everyone has different needs. Levels of you know background is set up, but i'm intensely curious about this and i'm certain not the only ones.

So do you want to talk about wait, lifting a rock and roll on the guitar?

I want to talk about um let's let's talk about the most structured first part of your day and then let's talk about the least structured part of your day.

least the part that you can share with the with the world yeah waking up early and i'm going to work out and depending on what's going on that day, if I have an early flight, I might work out for eight minutes, right? I might go and do two thousand meters on the roller, get get a sweat going hard as I can and then i'm done and because I got to go catch a flight so that could be happening, maybe i'm supposed to go surfing in the morning.

I wake up, the waves are terrible. And so now i've got nothing, nothing to do. I'd planned out, you know, to be surfing for two or three hours.

And now i'm going to go surfer's. I want to go, i'm going to go left and i'm going to go playing the gym and do a bunch of stuff. I also spent two or three hours in there.

I love doing that. So the workout could be anywhere between what I just say, eight minutes and three hours, and IT could be anything in between. I i'd fully enjoy the the physical aspect of working out.

So if I have more time to spend in the gym, i'll spend IT. Remember my dad saying at one point, if I retired, I wouldn't know what to do. And I was think of myself serious right now.

You know, if I didn't have anything to do, I spent six hours a bay in the gym. We'd spent four hours doing judge to like I could fill my day. I could fill every day with just physical activity, things that I just like doing, but that's so wake up early, get a sweat going.

And do I left? yes. Do I do cardio? yes.

Do I run? yes. Do I sprint? yes. Do I. Lift heavy weights? yes.

Do I swing cattle balls? Yes, I I do everything and and anything, and I enjoy all of IT, and i'm not really good at any of IT. No, i'm not really good at any one aspect of physical activity. I am there's people that are infinitely Better at me in every aspect of and i'm not just talking about, oh, this guy is a world class room and there's like guide for red down with the gym that can dead live more than me. There's a guy when I was sea team, there was a guy who was probably five seven, and he look kinds chubby and he was older than me, and he could run faster than me .

and he could bench more than me.

So bother some. Yeah.

they're out there. They got some engine in their related to something. I mean, I do think they're genetic differences in terms of people's resilience and work out, but even just grip strength is highly, highly subjective, like genetic influences maximum grip strength.

But of course, there is a huge range in what people can develop. But I guarantee your grip strength. This is greater than mine.

People asked me this all the time. Who would win an ARM restful between you and jack? My jack? Just there's a technique .

I have to imagine .

they're putting their body behind. They're their like there .

is legitimate technique in ARM restful where for you yeah there is no like if we could bring a female ARM Russell in here that knows how to a ARM Russell because I know how to ARM rusal leader and he would be both for us um because there is a lot there's a lot more technique and army thing than you know than most people recognize. There's all these little games that are going on. There's all the little ARM position that you get. So just like everything else, it's technique. There's a lot of technique in ARM restless not good to know.

I didn't know that about ARM restless. I think we all start off with some genetic previous positions, both good and bad, for different things. And then there's as far as we know, there's a huge range based through neural plastics, ity and muscle adaptation in what we can obtain. So never want genetic creative position to service a barrier. Nobody knows also what the upper limits of any of these things are.

And some of the best examples we know from sport, and certainly from academy, are people who knew they were at a disadvantage and just worked ten times harder than everybody else because they had an act ground with their genetic disadvantage, which is really cool at the face of IT. I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, athletic Greens. Athletic Greens, now called ag one, is A A vitamin, mineral probiotic drink that covers all of your foundational nutritional needs.

I've been taking athletic Greens since two thousand and twelve, so i'm delighted that they're sponsoring the podcast. The reason I started taking athletic Greens and the reason I still take athol Greens once or usually twice a day, is that IT gets to be the probiotics that I need for good health. Our god is very important, is populated by got microbiome that communicate with the brain, the immune system and basically all the biological systems of our body to strongly impact our immediate and long term health.

And those probiotics and athletic Greens are optimal and vital for microbiota health. In addition, athletic Greens contains a number of adaptations, vitamin minerals, that make sure that all of my foundational nutritional needs are met. And IT tastes great.

If you'd like to try athletic Greens, you can go to athletic Greens dot com slash huberman and theyll give you five free travel packs that make IT really easy to mix up athletic Greens while you're on the road, in the car, on the plane, at sea, and they'll give you a year supply of vitamin d 3k two。 Again, that's athletic Greens dot com slash humor, man, to get the five free travel packs and the year supply of vitamin d 3k two。 So you get you get the training and due track you're training in in a detailed way. Are you keep a track of less?

And I I write down what I do, and I write down, I write down what I do every day. And that way I can go back and say, yeah, what was I doing back then? Because I might go through some phase where i'm trying to do more pull ups, i'm trying to dead lift more and i'm trying or whatever the whatever the thing is, i'll go back and it's going on the board of dead lifting afterwhile that let's face IT, if you just want to be a good dead lifter, you're not going to be that fast, right?

You're you're going to be slow on long runs, so you don't want to go too deep in a dead lifting. Also don't want to be so good at long runs that you can't lift, you know, a good amount way. So I gonna go through phases, not getting into something for a while, not get into something else. So I do log down what i'm doing so I can look back and say, oh, then, you know, i'm not even close to a strong, as I used to be.

need to get back to that. I'm fascinated by the concept of energy when the most interesting aspects in all of biology, all of psychology and all of life and when I say energy, I mean um the distinction between being back on your heel, flat footed or forward center of mass and I get the impression and I think everyone gets the impression that use somebody with a lot of energy and I wonder whether or not you wake up with a lot of energy and you feel like you have to burn IT off with this physical activity and work in other demands in your life or do you find that you wake up and your energy is kind of neutral and exercise and physical activity gives you energy because I think this is one of the key things out there.

I think that access a barrier for people doing more with their body because maybe they don't want tire themselves out or may they don't feel like they have enough energy to begin with. It's also feeds into this idea that or you know some people just have a lot of energy. They're really physical and other people aren't.

So let's just say, on most days, do you wake up feeling like you want to burn off energy, build energy? What is exercise mean to you? And there may way you talk about some of the underlying stuff going on there because I think we both might find that interesting.

I would say it's both, right? There's no way I consider and say, oh yeah, every day that alarm clock up is often i'm like, oh yeah, let's block and rote certainly that's not the case. It's also certainly not the case that every day like good not get A I say most the time they want cock is off and I don't think a bunch like when my long cock goes off.

I I don't think a bunch I don't debate with myself am not negotiating, I just think goes off and i'm doing what i'm supposed to do sort of robotic now this this much I can say, when you going to work out, you're going to feel Better. You will get energy for working out you. That is, that is a guarantee.

If you go work out, you going to feel Better. If you go break square, you're going to feel Better. This, you're gonna get more energy from IT.

And look, you ve got to go really, really hard to wear now. You feel more tired when you're done and even, I mean, you can go cycle. I'll do that occasionally, but I don't do that on a daily basis.

You know, at the end of the day, if I wake up, left, run, surf, and then I do you just in the afternoon, like at the end of that day, i'm tired and I feel tired. But Normal day, working out just makes you feel Better. IT definitely gives you that definitely gives me energy, I should say, because I guess i'm not everybody.

Yeah, I think it's a very important point because one of the things that we are learning from circadian biology and time of day effects and sunlight and all that stuff that we talk about our dca that you've done intuitively, right? There's what we can arrive. Last time we had a conversation that so many the things that science is telling us to do in that we emphasize on the podcast, this podcast you've been doing or are built into military schedules. And one of them is this notion of waking up early and getting physical early in the day.

And I supose if we were to just throw a one blanket rule on the table to encompass the number of themes, it's that once every twenty four hours, we each and all get a big increase in this release of the home on cordial, whichever says, oh, cordial, it's terrible. Know, can burn you out a dream or burn out all that, but it's a non negotiable peak. And you wanted to arrive early in the day.

And viewing sunlight, physical activity, caffeine and in particular, intense exercise all amplify. That court is all peak. In fact, I think the numbers i'm seeing is just sunlight viewing gives you a fifty percent increase in that course, all exercise on top of that, another fifty to seventy five percent crease.

So there is huge released in this hormone that everyone thing is terrible, but actually sets a huge wave in motion for the rest of the day, which gives you more energy, higher levels of immune function, more focus that that are in does indeed, as you mentioned in york, example of your daily life sets a timer that about fourteen to sixteen hours later, you're sleepy, which is what you want, fourteen to sixteen hours later, unless of course, you're running vampire shifts in the military, you're your own shift work. But most people aren't, of course. So I think the idea that movement and exercise gives us energy, I think is an important idea.

And at something that I was Frankly, I was hoping your answer would be that as supposed to, that you know, you wake up every day and you just want to just attack the world because you have so much energy getting out of bed, because, Frankly, I never feel that way. But I always feel Better after I train always. And of course, there are times when I crash in the early afternoon if I trained really, really hard, but usually that's when I over caffeinated to an outrageous degree.

And then I don't nourish after, or I over nourish. So this is the other thing that eating the whole rest and digesting the digest word and there is meant to for there for a reason, which is that when we eat a really big meal, we actually need to slow down. So I hate to get into daily schedules at the level.

Nip picking and nutrition is about the most controversial topic on the internet, but you nourish after you train. And if you do, do you do IT to the point where. You can like, okay, i'm mostly full or i'm for you trying to like, really nurse yourself. Or do you find that eating slows you down?

I find that eating slows me down. And I would say, again, it's weird how some of this stuff is like the means. I got the habit of waking up early and working out is because if you do IT before anyone else is awake, then they can bother you and you can get stuff done, right?

You go to the sea el team, and you get there before anyone else is there. No one can say, hey, can you help us with? Hey, no one send you any details.

You you get that time. You get IT done in each years, right? I remember what you were on my poncas.

And I don't wear sunglasses when I run in the morning because I sweat and I fell s my sunglasses is not because I want to let the U. V. Light into my eyes. That's not call, not for the quarter.

All I didn't know that it's cool that I know that now, but I just did IT because I don't want like sweat in my sunglasses can see so I just run without put a head on 啊。 As far as eating, I don't like to do physically active things with fruit, my stomach, that's just the way IT is, yes. And so I don't want and what really keeps that in line for me is i'm doing to do to in the afternoon. And so if I eaten a big lunch, by the time the afternoon and rules around, i'm kind of, uh, I got food in my god and I just don't like that feeling. So no, I don't eat a big meal until i'm kind of done with the physical stuff for the day, which is usually at night six seven o'clock at night, which I guess there are some bad things .

about that I need too late well, the data say, you know, if you yeah this good, we can go down a rabbit hole this, and then someone's going to pull up some little clinical study. And then another one that counters that. And I think the data essentially say that having a regular meal schedule that allows you to sleep well at night, whatever that means for you, and that allows you to be active in focus when you need to be active in focus. That's the ideal schedule.

I when i'm working with clients, sex leadership of consultant company in front, when i'm going to work with the client because because they're to be asked me questions where can be diving into what's happening inside their business. Like there's a lot of stuff going on. It's a lot of cognitive work.

So i'm not looking for a podcast. I'm not eating before a podcast before recording podcast. I'm not eating because I don't want to have a bunch of food, my stomach, I want to you get a certain level of mental clarity when you haven't eaten a bunch of food.

So going out on machines, i'd never would eat before I go out. Out on a mission, I would eat when I come home. You get home four clock in the morning, three clock in the morning from doing Operation could then because then i'm going to do the brief for fifteen minutes, clean weapons and then eat a big meal.

Go to sleep. cool. yeah. I don't want to have food in my stomach when i've got to perform or execute anything. So again, I think that's just kind of a fluke that I ended up living like that. But that's kind of how I live.

A fortunate fluke for all of us because because so much of what you embody in what you do, I think, centres around this idea of discipline, of course, but also energy. It's it's um it's the intuitive sense I get about why people are so drawn to your messaging and what you do and how you do IT energy. We know, of course, is chloric energy.

I think that's what most people default to. They go of that how many calories or energy and how many calories and that unique calories to fuel things. But the energy that you're describing, I think, is the one that, well, I really maps to eastern traditions more directly, all in and yang thing in in the end, I was get that wrong.

So which is the notion of neural energy. And so there's a particular cluster of chemicals in us as a fancy name called a category means, but that's doper mean apple, apple, which is a gentlemen and nor appan afra. And then you got court as all.

And those four hang out together and basically give us enough energy to run our brain and body for fifty days, fifty days. So the idea that you have to eat before you train, sure. For some people that might work Better than others.

But I think what people don't realize is that anytime where is taking in chloric energy, IT takes neural energy in order to digest that and put IT into storage. And so the way you describe your day of you, I also don't need before train, like to hydrate. Caine, I have been drinking these before I drink.

I have to limit my myself to two before, because otherwise I like picking up morally quaking a little bit. The second one, but I have a pretty high caffeine tolerance. So I like to train faster also, and then I finally gives him in the energy.

But then the moment that I eat a meal that's a little too large, all of a sun and amount of energy. And what's the deal? This calories or energy, right?

You spoke to have energy order to think and move. And I think, I think a lot of the world has this backwards. And this isn't a push for intermit fasting or any particular style of eating, really.

I didn't care if people are kind of vy and doesn't matter to me. Whatever works. I happen to be an ominous, but I think IT wants people understand that energy to do things is neural.

And yet, of course, IT relies on having like gene and all the stuff around. But neural energy is what's really about then your schedule in the way you function and the way you describe your schedule really makes a tono sense. So you described getting up and lifting, running surfer's n Judith in the same day.

So on a day like that, you're hydrated, correct? Oh, is that vital? And I know in the teams, in the seal teams, there's a lot of discussion about hydrogen as important even though you guys I know, I want to be able like eat sand and survive on sunlight and dirt and like drink your own blood. You know, it's hydration .

taken seriously, right? And different people need different amount of hydration. And I unfortunate as one, I always need to bring a lot of water in the field, which sucked because water is heavy.

And I have friends, one of my friends, tony B T F tony, he go on the field with like a cana, copenhagen and coffee in his company. Like three right, survive. And I would always have to bring on water.

I sweat a ton when I work out, when i'm doing anything that requires physical, physical, a output, i'm going to, I sweat at on. So I have to do drink a lot of water for sure. But not even is the same.

you know? Yeah, I think if most people focus more on hydration and movement, they would find they have two. I'm an adventure guess years is not a scientific study, but two to four times more energy than if they focused on chloric energy and what to eat.

Yeah, and I think the cool thing about this know you're using the term energy. And what's cool about this is you or I, I create energy, right? I create energy by, like I said, by going to the, by going to lifting in the morning, by going and doing, you go to bumpies, you go to a hundred burpy.

Like you're creating energy, you're going to be tired, you're going to be sweating, but you just created energy. So that stuff is is totally true. Gather the neuroscience to back IT up yeah.

i'm actually thinking to voting some of my lab to this. You know one of the best examples, another familiar territory for you is cold water. You know now is there's a lot about ice baas and cold baas and showers and all that.

And I always like to to say, listen, it's all just a reliable source of inducing a general release. And you get out of a cold shower, you have more energy and that energy couldn't have been choric energy. It's a drennan.

And know again, i'm it's fair the same. I'm obsessed by the ideas of identity, which is a little bit how we started off. And I want to get back to an energy.

I feel like identity and energy can account for seventy five percent of what he is to, you know, live a good life, if you can master those, because then IT all seems to fall in the bins. It's like, of course, you need sleep. Why will to restore your neural energy, right? At some point you just fade out of neural energy if you don't sleep.

So sleep then falls into a particular bin with a particular purpose. And then exercise becomes not a way to like burn energy. But as you said, to create energy, we actually trying to understand why this is, if you'll indulge me for a second on some neuroscience, we didn't talk about this last time.

We have neural circuits that control deliberate action. We have neural circuits that control deliberate actions that we forget that we're doing, like walking. And then we have neural circuits, which are called central pattern generators.

And these are the unusual circuits that love to just work on their own and in the background, just kind of hum in the background and take care of all the stuff like heart, beef breathing and movement that is repetitive. Like if you you're just marching and you don't have to adjust your kid and as much or may be your hiking even and step in this rock, that rock once. So central pattern generators get going.

It's very automatic. And we know that once so central pattern generators get going, there's the release of those category means those three or four molecules that then feed all the other neural systems. They are called neuromodulation for a reason because they set the gain higher.

So you go out for a run, or a jog or a hike or something, where are you pedal or you roll, and then your whole system is is at a higher rpm. So when you say create energy neuroscience, sts are shining. And what that is, repetitive movement that allows you to forget the motoring commands that are required to generate that.

You might think about your rose stroke or something like that, but you can do IT without thinking much. You come off of that, and you now are set at a higher rpm to do more deliberate stuff. And none of this again involved like eating enough carbon hydrates are making sure you have enough key tones, are enough protein like it's like you got plenty of that stuff provide you nervous at some point every twenty four hours or so.

So I think we know a little bit about the science behind jacko willings schedule now. But I will ask this, are there certain forms of exercise like weight lifting versus cardio that you find give you an especially big boost in what we're calling energy? And here this could be cognitive energy, could be physical, a ready ness for the next thing.

Yeah, first I got to back you up on this. I have backing up your, your, your science so you ever do a rock march, like put on a heavy way. And rocket started in drop.

Yeah, Peter, a tea got me into this. He got into doing a long sunday instead of a long sunday run, throwing on a light weight vesa rock, going off like three hours. And the first twenty minutes, I find always want to go faster and get this over with. But then I learned that the real pain in IT sets in around an hour, and then the beauty sets around ninety minutes. We're like, I could do this all day, all night, and I never want to stop.

See that when you are describing how this chemical, these chemicals get released. And once you in that automatic mode, because in the seal teams, you're doing maritime Operations for a month and then you're going to do some kill house shooting and so you're not caring a bunch of way and then you go out to the desert and now you're put on eighty pounds. And you're going on, like day one, you get out there.

You're going on eighty pounds rock march. And the first break and seventeen minutes, the first twenty three minutes just suck. They just suck. And what was beautiful was, by the time I was, you know, twenty three, twenty four years old about, oh yeah, this is gona suck for seventeen minutes and then it's going be i'm going to be a robot and IT doesn't matter anymore. I can just keep going forever.

So is now that sounds like what you're saying is what I experiences my basically my whole adult life, there's gonna a little break in period mentally where think of this totally sucks and then you just can keep going for a really, really long time and it's not that big of a deal. To your question of, is there any form of exercise that gives me that energy book, I would have to say, like the the high intensity sort of aneroid c glast. You know whether it's on the biker, on the rower or you screen in a cattle bell hard, something like that, that last ten, fifteen minutes.

That's a really good way to you. Peak my mentality for the day. Do you do .

the cold water thing? I mean, to certain ly do a lot .

of IT in bud. I need you force yourself in .

a cold bath house.

usually around five minutes, five minutes before you train.

or after.

no, after. So this sum I haven't played with yet. And for me, i'm like, i'm like such A I I don't like to make a bunch of effort for something. So for me, going downstairs, getting in the ice tub, and I guess you only need to do in that before you work out. You only go a minute.

right? Do a minute to three. Joe and I have been texting back and forth about this. There's a lab at stanford, cg hillers lab that works on cold and performance in the athletes that stanford mainly ader. The the cross countries here in the foobar, players are doing cold before they're training because of the huge increase, huge long lasting increase in dopamine and the general caused by that. They're finding in the increases performance mainly by waking people up and again.

And though IT creates energy, basic and students, you never thinks that like our athletes are all supermoto vat, this is no pick against stanford athletes and particular, a lot of athletes are excEllent at what they do because they're very lazy when they're not training. This is true, not all athletes, but a lot of athletes are. And so they really good at resting and recovering so they can train more.

But a lot of athletes have a hard time getting in to integers to to train every day. And the cold is a great stimulus, right? It's a it's like a four shot of the spread. So kind of stimulus without all the jitters.

I think, uh, maybe going in there for a minute would be cool. Before workout, I will say this. So I had I had like a long workout and IT was a saturday, which means on saturday I do just to kind of in the morning round ten o'clock, and I they have like a long work out, went for a long run.

IT was hot and I just got in the ice bath and I SAT in there for like seven minutes, like the deep chill I got out when I went right to do you soon I felt awful. I felt absolutely awful, like tie cold. And IT took me an extra rounds to get warmed up again.

So that kind of left a bad taste in my mouth for free work icing. But i'm going to tried the shorts. So talking another friend of my, oh no, only go a minute before maybe i'll give that a try .

if it's really called thirty seconds to a minute. I is gonna you the this big release in a genome and and doping.

Actually one time I did try, you know, the the the chAmber that blast called her on you, the co, other co.

And I did that .

for for like a minute or whatever. And that did make me feel prety work out pretty good. Yeah.

I think that the the whole notion of called from a tabligh m you know people say, well, it's not that big of an increase of metabolite. Far as i'm concerned, the main function of the code for most people is going to be the discipline of doing IT, the sense of resilience that you can build up over time, just being familiar with having the journey in your system, and then the fact that the dba mean increases are huge and long lasting.

I mean, they, like two point five acts, increases that there's a colleague. And its stanford onomea I runs are dual diagnosis addiction clinic. SHE had a patient getting off cocaine addiction who decided use cold ice bas as a way to a kind of assist himself along the way.

You know, he wasn't get dopamine from cocaine y more so he decided to to get IT from the ice bath. The differences is cocaine is using sharp increases and then decreases the drop away below baseline. So what do people do? They go seek more cocaine.

It's really principle that way, whether the ice bath and cold showers will give this long arga sting two to three hours or more. And that's really something to treasure. You know, the idea that you can basically save on your heating bill, you know, give yourself this huge dopamine increase.

And I think everything in the fact that is healthy and good, but I mean, obviously it's working for you to do after your training. I think all the the gym at you want more hypertrophy. You're trying to get extra you know eight of an inch on their try separate whatever they freak out because they hear that I can inhibit um and then for .

whatever reason there's .

this my doing IT wrong well, I mean, I get clearly you're doing no, you're not. I don't think your hypertrophy is suffering. I actually move the mind that if you're training really hard, sure, getting in the cold afterwards might blunt some hyperdrive phy.

That is what the data tell us. Andy galpin on the expert on that literature. But Frankly, I don't know anyone that trains really hard with the weight and then gets into the cold that looks like they're suffering from hype.

I know a lot of people, however, who love to point fingers in pocket cold exposure. This seems to be a big thing on social me. People who don't like the cold love to point out the studies showing that the cold screws up everything, and most of them look like that.

You need a few sets in the gym to me and know fort will poking them because I feel like all of these are just tools, right? And in any case, I am a big fan of deliberate called exposure, mostly for the neural effects. Again, i'm obsessing over this concept of energy and is something that I I can't home. But ask, is that IT is the cognitive side of this and the kind of the effects of winning and losing.

So you obviously have A A lot of development um and a lot of winds whatever in the context that met right killed the target, capture the capture the hostage sea and then um as is the case with war, um there have been some cases of losses, right you have lost people um maybe there were targets that weren't accomplished right? This kind of thing you posted about these and these are always um you know things that are hard to see, but I think it's really important that you have post about people that you've lost right IT because first of all these people served, but second of all, that things don't always work out the way that we want and sometimes to really catastrophic consequences. There's a theory and biology that when we win, we somehow get more energy to to win more through the release of no surprise depine and some related molecules.

In fact, testosterone in both men and women is that another close cousin of the dopamine system actually released from the same general or the the patterns of release, or from the same general areas in the brain, believe that are not in body. But when we win, we feel like we can keep going, like you look at the team that wins and like, don't play another game, super bowl, where where you imagine they are jump ing up and down and they could not play other super bowl. Losing, we know can sure can drop things like test astern and dopamine for some period of time.

But when you're in the teams, what was your observation about how winning and losing would impact people in the short and long term? In other words, would you observe people that had a quick reset button? And could you say that was horrible? And then transmute, I guess i'm getting into the the eastern language out trip, convert that into energy to go do Better the next time. Whether we also see people, military and in the civilian world, that a loss, in particular, severe losses, basically set them down the path of like less energy and certainly and less calories. In fact, most of time is the other way, they start consuming more calories, and that doesn't get them going.

So again, this notion of energy and asking winds versus losses, what did you observe? And from the perspective of leadership, and maybe more importantly, from the perspective of yourself, how do you work with that? How do you calibrate wins and losses? How do you transmitted losses into energy? Because when we know convert to energy, but loss is often times can sap our energy way, way down.

I think. To start with, I think that the selection process to get into the seal teams is going to weed out a bunch of people that can't recover very quickly from something bad. So you ve probably heard these type of stories before.

The kid that was the star of the football team, the star of the basketball team, the captain of this, the captain that he's been winning his whole life, he goes to budget and he quits. Because in bud, you you you're not gonna win. You're certainly not going to win everything.

They're going to find what you're not good at and they're going to exploit that and you're going to lose. That's what happens. So a lot of guys that may lose and IT disrupts their their motivation.

They're probably just gna quit. And so that's why you get this massive attrition rate with guys that are study. I mean, what's talk in division one athletes, division one athletes, division one restart, division one football players, division one runners and summer, they all come to buds.

They are quit, not all quit. But there's plenty of examples of the highest level of colleague afreet in sports that translate very well to what you're doing in in basic seal training. And they quit.

And sometimes it's because they don't know how to lose, they don't how to recover from a loss. And there they're just so so I think already and once you get to a seal team, you've got people that are, generally speaking, gonna pretty resilient when IT comes to dealing with a loss. Now of that, I mean, you should get you talk about losing people, your friends with this guy.

You meet this guy and seal training. Hey, this guy seems like a stud. Oh, he's gonna quit.

And and you're gona lose five, six, seven people, eight people, people quit. So faster, keep track of them. So you're just going to lose. You're just going to get used to IT.

So there's that now what you're in the teams and what you're talking about is now you start taking much more significant laws and not losing a ratio, losing that one of your friends. And this is what from a leadership perspective you have you have to pay attention to you. So when you're in a leader in any organization, you're basically in charge of a mob.

When IT comes to what the morale is, they're a mob and they feed off each other, just like a mob riding in the streets. We can break this winter, let's break all the windows, and they move this mob mentality. And that happens with moral inside of a team.

And you, as a leader can't get caught up with the mob. You can't let that happen. You have to detach yourself from the mob mentally so that you don't get caught up in their emotions and numeral.

Because if you get caught up in their emotions and you get caught up in their morale, you can correct IT. So we go out on a mission. The mission goes great.

We get to a gun, fat kill a couple of bad guys. Everyone's okay. Hi fives.

Everyone's feeling great. You come back to base, hey, we don't need a debris that was perfect. Hey, we don't need to get a gear, you know, a maintain.

We can just go to bed. We wear awesome. That's when the leader has to say, oh, we've got the mob and the mob is becoming slightly arrogant.

Hey, guys, real quick. That was a good up. But there some things we couldn't prove.

You gotta a bring that more back and bring them back to center line. Same thing in the other direction. You go out.

Operation IT doesn't go well. You go out and Operation, you take casualties now, you come back to base, you see guys moving around. You see the the spirit starts in a break.

And same thing, if you, if you're part of that mob, you'll be with them. Your morale will be breaking your spirit, be breaking you and look and say, oh, I see what's happening. Hey, guys, listen up.

That was tough. Didn't go the way we wanted IT to go. We need to learn some lessons, hear some things. I can do Better. What can we do Better to make sure that that never happens again? What can we do to make sure we have the opportunity go out and avenge our brother on the battle field? What can we do to move this thing forward? So as a leader, when IT comes a winning and losing, you're generally going to be the person count dering what the mob mentality is, because when the mob starts winning, they want to keep winning and they might get arrogant.

When the mob is losing, they might start to lose more because their attitude goes down the drain so that we have to pay attention to from a leadership perspective for for me personally, I think I know what I did when when I lost guys was focused on, alright, we need to, we need to celebrate the life. We need to move the more the us. And then we need to go to work.

We need to get our gear back on. We need to lock and lower weapons. We need to get back out there. I know that that's what we need to do, you know so often. The best way to contend with with problems, with issues, with adversity is action, is by taking action.

The more you sit and the more you wait, and the more time you spend with that adversity, with the upper hand inside your head, the the worse it's gonna get. So for me, always taking action, making something happen, IT doesn't have to be huge. IT doesn't have to be some mammoth.

You triumph that you're going to go and go and pursue. But if you say, hey, listen, this, what happened didn't go the way we wanted to to we're going to get a gear back on. We going to go back out.

We're to do this other mission. And that's that's what I think. I think taking action and it's in in your personal life, too.

You know, something doesn't go the way you wanted to go. You didn't get the job you wanted. You didn't get the higher you you don't get the promotion.

You can go home and sit there and and dwel on IT that's not get you any progress or you say, okay, you know what? We do a quick analysis, why didn't I get that promotion? Oh, because I didn't get this qualification or I hadn't jump through this gate. Okay, cool.

What do you need? Let me look into how how do I get to jump through the gate. So next time I will get the promotion, you start taking action. So action, for me, is a cure for a lot of problems that we have in life.

I love this because the images surprising my mind. I'll share with you and tell me where IT agrees with and maybe violates you. Tell me. But what I was imagining when you trying about leadership in the mob is a bunch of candles, but not wax candles. These are oil candles.

And you trying about a win, you know, could be an up, go out and win IT could be a team that could be an individual taking an exam and I get an a plus. So IT does not matter. But the riding high in those winds, we know, crank up those category means, and is as if the intensity that flame starts going up as a consequence, as natural.

But the oil in the candle is continuing to burn down like you need to celebrate wins, but you're burning that oil. And so we're really talking about here is how to moderate and then we claim energy. And I was imagine you is the leader who is like, okay, guys, great.

But listen, you're burning that oil, right? That oil is what you got you to win. Let's not just clap IT like we can know, do A A few disbarred s and, you know, maybe celebrate in some other ways. But then let's let's take the energy we got and put IT to the next thing rather than just go crazy. Drugs of abuse, in particular drugs that tapping the dopa system, namely cocaine in and fedewa.

And just because there's no way to avoid this, if we're being true to the biology, the the energy, the dopamine in system was designed for forging ing for all sorts of things, food, so people that overindulge food or seek out food, sex, people that over indulge in these things, they those things. And again, the sort leads to eastern philosophy a bit, but there's western neuroscience, or neuroscience, which you just say to support IT, you start to deplete these dopamine systems. The baseline starts to drop.

And so i'm imagining that the leader, you in this case of saying, like, listen, let's turn IT down, use the energy that we've gained and put IT to good use, rather than just burn IT up and enjoying IT. And then, of course, after a loss, when those I saw, think of the candles going dimmer and the, but the oil reserve is still there. And like, how do you start to tap back into the oil reserve? Well, you have to actually rap the candle up again.

You can just sit there waiting for the know the the intensity of the flame to come back. You actually have to do something in order for that to happen. So maybe this isn't the best analogy because IT lacks sort of like the exactly what is that? The person turning the intensity up and down on these candles, but that's what comes to mind in in eastern intradiscal is a idea.

Che of energy, energy to fight IT, energy to seek mates, energy to seek food, energy for sex, energy for all of that is the same energy. And I actually believe that the energy that they're referring to are these categories I really do. Now there are other energy systems to relating to child wearing, their bonding, oxy tos and all the kind of like fuzz warm stuff that's super important and way we would exist as species, the way we do if if we didn't honor that energy system also and that energy system that we Normally think of as love as opposed the forward center of mass syntaxes with this system.

Right when you're work working within training within um people that you love, this could be your your brothers, your sisters, whatever your family there is. I think there's an amplifying effect on this whole thing, right? If is just for more doping, just for more money, just for more wins, just for more trophy.

I never forget this is inside. When I was a kid, I had this weird experience where tony hawk is. Dad rescued me from a skate board contest in linder via the linder vista.

Boys, like everyone else left. I was left there alone. I was fourteen because of my homelife at that time at. And he was like, where you are and i'm like, i'm the bus to lancaster. I know this guy.

He was like, on your coming our house okay, so if he took me a tony house and I went into tony y's room that he had grown up in, tony lived in far work at that time, and the room wasn't filled with trophies. The rumor was tropes. And I remembers, you're thinking, like, holy cow, like.

And when I think about that, and I think about what a healthy person tony turned out to be because that happened, the blessing Normal little bit. It's amazing because a lot of people that had those trophies, whatever domain of life, they converted all that into ways to just burn the oil down on their candle. He's a guy who's still going in his fifties, right? So hey, IT, that's a lot of sad story. But I think this notion of energy to me is so important because as you said, when we move toward action and we complete something, the oil in that candle starts to get replenished and the flame burnt.

Hoder what you're talking about, and i'm very interested in this now, and I don't know if there's this already been measured or not, but what essentially we're talking about is the confidence level, right? So if I go out and win, I feel good about IT and IT. Let's say i'm doing A G G.

tent. And the first magic, I submit the guy and thirty taken down, submitted in thirty seconds. I'm feeling good.

I'm feeling like confident, right? So what does that mean? My dope, mean is up because I got that vict.

My text resume because I got that Victory. My confidence is up because I got that Victory. Same thing. All the direction, if I go out first match and I lose to somebody, my dopamine goes down, that chemical thing goes down, my confidence goes down.

And what what I have to do is I have to learn how to maintain a level of confidence. Because if I get overcome, if I win that first match in the next, i'm going to kill this next guy and I go B, I don't care. That's when I get caught.

If I get told, if I lack confidence, I got nothing to be. This guy going to be horrible, of course i'm going to get smashed. So it's it's a similar thing that we're talking about.

I just wonder how much if you start measuring because they say, hey, you win your test, astern goes up, right. And then if you win more your test, astern goes a pie, your dooming goes apply. Your confidence is going up, but you can get to a point where your confidence is too high.

And now you're getting sloppy. Now you don't care. And you know, you mention cocaine.

You know, you see like videos of people that are all caked up. And here, I do think, can do everything possible, confident right over. They think they can kick your ass off of that.

That's like too much dopamine, too much ego, too much confidence. The other side of the spectrum is someone that's on some kind of downer drug and they don't feel like they can do anything. They are lothar gic.

Their confident is low and they're just depressed. So there's an interesting thin between doping, ego, confidence and probably test astern that you get from winning and from losing. And once again, as a leader, from a leadership perspective, you can't get wrapped up in that you can you can get wrapped up in that you have to attach from me.

You have to be to take a step back. And then if you're good, even as a competitor, you'll say all that last match was easy, but I need to prepare for the next match. I can't bring over confidence.

Look, I don't want to lack a conference. Is a baLance right? Is that is that flame on the oil burning lamp that you're talking about that you want that steady flame? You don't want too much going to burn out of control. You don't want too little, the flame will go out.

Yeah, earlier we talked about this notion that the some of these orders hungarian psychologist had, which this notion generators versus projectors. And their idea is that people are divided into these different categories and the world needs both. It's not a that one is Better than the other, but the world absolutely needs both.

And there is this idea now, based on some neuroscience and some other psychology that i've been kind of living into, which is that generators know how to tap into the system, and they love this system. I think back to your story about being taken to shop for pants and IT turns out to be a trip to shop for a number of different experiences for you, right? A really telling experience have an having an action effect on the world.

And something coming back to you that still sits with you inside. In fact, there's a dopamine, an circuit. They are still related to this, you know, Young woman or then no Young woman at that time.

Some people are generators, and I think that they are more tuned to this dopamine e system. And so as we're having this conversation, i'm guessing that about the estimate is that somewhere between fifty and sixty five percent of people are going, yeah, I IT more workout. So I was going to give me more energy.

I need to do more of that. I need to, when i'm back on my heals, I need to think about the things I can complete set. And then the other forty five percent or so, thirty five percent might be saying, I don't really get IT.

Now the idea is that the projectors. Can tap into the same circuit. Everyone has these categories, circuits, dopamine eeta, but that they tend to be more of observers in the world, and they like being partners with and symbian with these people.

Now that starts to take on kind of like steroid pal, masculine, feminine things. But this exists on both sides. IT really does.

There might be some biases right by biological sex. There may not be. We could argue that it's probably argument. We'll get us into more trouble than to answers and doesn't really matter.

The point is that some people are perfectly happy to be in the company of people winning, because they feel good to see other people winning. They like to be a support staff. That's what makes them feel good.

Other people would rather stick hot forks in their eyes, then not be the person engaged in the activity, maybe not every activity, but the activity. So we talking about the generators and the projectors, I think that in the context of moderating these systems, it's so key. I mean, it's key to have a long art in a career path, military science or others SE.

I think it's key in every domain of life. And I think for me, one thing that i've learned, but the hard way, and i've also benefit from the paul ve experience of, I think, in relationships, this could be romantic relationships, but also friendships. And in family there, because there are generators and projectors, almost always in those kind of syn biotic relation of romantic couple or a family that you know some kids are more generate.

Some are more projectors just by by something, who knows, maybe hardwired, maybe not as the leader of your family. I'm going to be one of the two leaders, but as a leader in your family am going to make any assumptions here, as the leader, your family, and also as a father in particular. How do you apply the same sorts of ideas when you know your kid is gna down because hard to be a fourteen year old, or because IT was a bad day? Or when they're up, right? I think the up states are as interesting as the downstage.

Like, yes, I got the degree, got the win. How much do you let them celebrate before you like? Hey, listen, you just got yourself another couple million leaders of oil in your candle you can do with that. You're gonna burn IT. Are you going to save IT for the next things .

you can climb the staircase? Well, clearly, it's a very similar thing to what I just talked about. You know, if your kid is doing well and and wins the restless tournament and is like, I want the resting and what do they want to do? They want to eat a triple cheese pizza.

I mean, they want to go crazy. And you as a leader, and as and as a parent and as a friend, need to say a man, I mean, you did good. That was awesome yet a great day.

But let's start think a little bit next week to, how about we just have a few sliced the pizzas, a reward. So this is, this is the same in any situation that you could be in interacting with other human beings. You want to be the person that kind of moderates the the confidence and the ego, or the the way you put IT, you know, the doping and and the celebratory activities.

So no matter who you are, and and this goes with yourself as well, you know, you do something, you have a success, and you say all that great. H, but all Gloria's fleeting. And I need to get back to work and look.

And do people go too far with that sometimes? Yes, absolutely. Sometimes people, they they don't stop and celebrate at all.

And those that kind of people, I think they get burned out eventually because they never say, hey, that was awesome. We had a big win. cool. High five. They don't even say that.

So I think you know as a leader, as a friend, as a parent, as a spouse, you want to be able to modulate that help modulate that don't show IT down. You know your kid walks off the restless mad with for a high five and you said you could run by more. No, i'm not talking about that.

Or your kid walks off the math. After losing, you say you've got what you serve. No, you've got ta be the counter, the counter weight to the emotions that other people have.

And and I think that when when you're doing a good job as a leaders, as friend, as spouse is whatever you're doing a good job as a counter wait, think that's A A good way to look at that. You want to you want to provide some baLance for people to make sure that they don't get out of control. And you you notice when people have a downfall, it's Normally because they're surrounded themselves with people that there's no counter.

Two, there's no counterbaLance. If you were my best friend and you, I went out drink and last night had a great time and party all night and met a girl, and you're like, hey, let's do again tonight, eventually we're we're going to be we're going to be in the gutter somewhere but if you say, hey, you, that was awesome. But do you remember we got school on monday, right? And you can to pull me back, that we got to find baLance in life and ourselves, and and then we got to as much we can provide baLance for other people, because people are emotional. And he called up on what they are doing. And you want, you want to keep people baLanced.

I think one of the reasons people are really drawn your message, and I put myself in that category and I member twenty and fourteen was a very different picture for me. Doesn't really matter what the country was, was things were were working, but they weren't working the way I wanted them to.

And I remember arriving at your content first through the temporis podcast then the eventually the jock willing podcast um job rogan podcast was the big two one I like introduced medio in your content. Not really a case of at the time. I didn't have a lot of friends that were doing similar things to me or that matched my daily routines in a way that know I could kind of synergies within this way.

I think one reason why you are so helpful to people is that not everybody has these friends know you can have the friend that's like let's go out and taiwan again. A lot of people don't even have that friend or they have a friend, but they're not really close with that person. There's some ideas nowa ys about you know like eighty percent of miles don't have a close friend that they could I don't know.

I mean, i'm guessing girls and women feel the same too. You know that a lot of stuff is superficial and there's a lot of communication, but not a lot of connection, right? And so I think that you and a few other people in the let's called social media, public ACE, public facing space service as architects es of like the friend that's gna tell you when you're up.

great. So let's clap IT after while or that when you're down, let's get going and here's how you get going. And so I do want to highlight that because I think it's really important is but one reason why people are drawn to your message and the message of some other people who are out there trying to do some more things.

But you in particular because, yes, you have this military background, very intense military background, wartime background, but also you bring IT into the daily routines that certainly applied everybody. You most everybody can access none. He did water, right? One would hope there's another dimension to this that I want to just bring up and get your reflections on as a relates to military work, school, relationship, family and sea, which is is somewhat counter intuitive idea.

But then once you hear IT, IT makes perfect sense, which is that even though the categories are responsible for drive and that that's what we're really about when we're forward center of mass and we have control the level intensive of the candle in the level of the oil. I don't know what that was actually map to exactly. We could proud ly figure out out we really passed IT.

But that's the the, the idea here, the analogy in a kind of surprising way. We know that for sure, one way to restore levels of motivation, drive enthusiasm and to some degree, confidence that things could be different is through deep rest. Things like sleep, right? When things are really, really hard, when kids are just like they were like falling in apart, you know, it's like you put to sleep, they wake up and they're like the light for they like running around the pajama as when they're little and a teenager wake up after a good night sleep and they might be alone like surely, but we're back.

Adults are like this. The world is falling apart. We go to sleep, wake up. Okay, I might be able to manager this kind of mind set. So sleep. And then the other one is we know that play the sort of the the kind of physical activity or mental activity where IT might be low competitive, but the stakes are low and it's really more about connection with the activity or connection with somebody else like we're onna play a game of whatever you know, I won't play just with legs because you kick my eyes on you juju o with either of you because you'll beat me up both of you kindly, but you'll do IT but you know, like we were to play a game is just us yeah we might be a little competitive, but the stakes are low, right?

We know that play in social connection and sleep are basically the reservoir with the location that you go to refill the oil in the cantle every single time. And so for you, where do those things play into your routine? You know, you mention, you can go hard all day, and then in the evening is IT dinner with family, typically if you're at home.

And what does that look like? I know we're kind of passing. I don't want to carve in to your you know your personal life to deeply, obviously their boundaries there.

But was that look like? Is that everyone at the table phones away and you're talking about the day? Or is IT know you have share with us a little bit of what that looks like? Because I think IT is an important control to what you're about and what we're talking about that most people just don't have a window into.

Yeah so well, first of all, I am just refilling the tank with games. I mean, that's what do to is right? You're going to go and you're going have social connection with people.

You're gona talk to people that you know you're gna joke about whatever, then you're onna roll. You're going have a good time rolling. You're going to get a little sweat on.

You're going to feel good. You going to hide five like there's. Huge that that there and your brain .

is kind of off.

You know when you when you're training digital at a certain level, you're you're not can be thinking anymore. Same thing with surfing. You go surfing and you catch a wave.

I mean, you you're not thinking about, oh, I need to put my baLance here. No, it's happening and you're having good time. So I would say that restoration for me comes from those two things for sure.

And then I mean, my my wife and my kids when I home, my kids are older now and they are out of the house except for one. And when I was in the navy, when they were Young, I went around at all. You know, there wasn't any like we would rarely have dinner together because I was gone coming home late.

You're working all the time. You can never get all you worked done. I'm training Judith like IT was. We rarely ate dinner as a family when I was in the in the teams and now when when i'm home and we can need to for sure you know my my daughter that still at home, she's gonna.

You know, we sit out there and eat dinner and talk about just Normal things that people talk about, like you know how to conduct the night ambush or talk about Normal, Normal, you know daily things and and what's going on. And you know my daughter that she's thirteen right now and SHE SHE talks me about all kinds of stuff, you know and it's awesome. Yeah I am definitely enjoying that aspect of being around more than I was when I was in the teams.

And I just we didn't have dinner. We didn't happen. So I would take my kids to g to. I taught judge to classes when I could when I was in the teams, uh, would do like workouts with them in the morning if I had time on the weekends, for sure, stuff like that with my kids. That's kind of what I did.

But now, yeah, we my wife is awesome and he is a great cook now, because when we first got married is questionable. I just got to asking her about this the other day, like SHE SHE got. She's an unbelievable cook now.

And it's awesome. And when we first met to buy her own admission, SHE will tell you SHE was not a she's from england, right? And so they're just not cooking what we're like in and .

the food over there. At least when I was grown up in a few times I made IT over there. The food was pretty dreadful I mean that um there were some exceptions to that but and they drank a lot over there.

So have been to some scientific meetings over there where they would start with like Sherry in the afternoon and then beer afterworld IT was outrageous. I mean, the amount of alcohol and take was just absurd. Yeah, sorry, britz.

Again, i'm trying that I did an episode. Alcoa, a lot of people are angry, but was so basis said, once you get past two drinks a week, you're starting to head in the territory that's um can delete your health. So I do a lot of other things off set IT, but um they drink .

a lot yeah the great drink a lot. I I have spent time over there with my father in law, my brother in law and and we definitely drink a lot, so i'm glad I don't live there and had to drink with god. I don't have to drink with them all the time. I'd probably be dead.

You are straights growing up.

right? yeah. I mean, I was when I was a kid and then when I joined the navy and I started drinking.

That's like part of the culture that I bought into and you know, like I wanted to be a good seal and i'm looking around at the guys that were considered good deals. Oh, so we're drinking. Okay, that's that's what we're and that's what I did.

I think I .

think my my looking back now, I didn't really I didn't think of IT is a big deal at the time. I wasn't like, well, first of all, everyone else grown up and I was didn't drink and didn't smoke, didn't do drugs. I I wasn't like a guy put in an x on my hand, although my friends and I, we all didn't drink in smoke. So we definitely look, I was in my for when I was, I get IT, but I wasn't guy running around telling everyone I was straight and you know but I was on that path for sure I do when I got the seal teams like, okay, this is this is a different culture on my use to and I didn't really even haven't even understand what drinking was.

I mean, i'd never I never had been drunk so got the field teams like, okay, won, you know and once I turn twenty one, okay, this is hey these guys, we're gone to have fun and I kind of just okay that's what we're doing um and then I drank a tone walls in the seal teams and then as I have retired from the seal teams and went out, we basically went to every bar that we would Normally go to like him as seals. I think we closed out the night of the pack shores in ob and went went home that morning. I walk up the next morning, worked out and then I just kind of stop drinking because and and now I just definite I mean, now I just don't really drink anymore so um that's that yeah when to have my .

lab in Cindy ago for five years as when my lab started, I definitely saw a lot team guys and but you guys come come in and take over little takes you I wouldn't leave because I wouldn't like give them the satisfaction or me the the dissatisfaction, but is little frustrating. You know you're in there. You're having decent time.

And then just an enormous back team guys comes to the answer like I maybe time to close out the night sometimes as friends were enough of them that. But if you're not really a part of, you're not really a part of and I always knew that and understood that. One thing that I think really comes through now, especially but throughout our discussion and all the things i've seen of you and that gets me back to this thing that came up with the beginning i'd really like to return to, is that you seem to have a very strong sense of context and self.

I just say i'm not a psychologist. I'm not here to play one. But you know, what you just described? Was that okay? In one context, IT made sense to be straight ed, mention minor threat, great band, strategy band, but when I came time to, you know, you run around with your friends then, and that made sense to be, you know, without alcohol or drugs or anything at that stage.

And then you get into another context, it's like, okay, I can do this, I can drink and still perform well in all the things I need to do. And then when that closes out, i'm going to i'm going to do something else. And some people are like that because they're kind of a communion right day. They're switching themselves depending on the context and they're kind of getting accents when they're one location or another. But that's not you at all.

I can tell with with certainty that's not you at all, that there seems to be a very strong sense of self so that when we have a sense of self, that firm, we can go into different contacts, we can even change our behavior, but we don't lose who we are, which means we can always return to IT. The image of my mind is like um i've done in a little bit studio, not a lot, but there's during some of the more advanced insulation side. This wasn't seal training, of course, was you following a line in the dark like a night dive and you're following a line and you know sometimes you're navigating tools, but something you're following line underwater and this idea that like you can let go at that line, but you have, you remember, what is you can return to IT.

That's kind of how I imagine the sense of self, because in different context, most healthy people modify themselves a little bit. We actively at a wedding or a funeral, then we do in class or out, you know, with our friends. Of course, it's important part of being a human and functional human.

So IT seems to me that from a pretty early stage, you had a pretty good sense of self. Now I don't know if you sit in your room and meditate on like, who is joke of William and like, touch that that central cord themselves. I'm guessing you don't. But as I say this, I have to ask, was there something in your upbringing, your parents, or or was IT just kind of how you always imagine yourself as like, yeah, this is who I am.

Like, no matter what happens around me, like I kind of know who I am, even if i'm engaging in some of the behaviors that I mind, I do in another constantly, I know who I am because I actually think that many people do not have a very firm sense of self, or their sense of self is so rigid that they can only Operate in this like narrow trench of one domain of life. And they end up very, very isolated. So i'd love you to kind of share with us what your recollections are going like the first time you realized like yeah like i'm good in a bunch of different places. I'm safe for um whatever because I think this is also relates to confidence.

You know i'm glad you um are giving me the benefit of doubt on going in the teams and and being like, hey, man, looks like guys are drinking and I head really drink before and seems like these guys are have a good time it's go have a good time with these guys and that's kind of what I did right um as far as and you know I look at IT now and unfortunately for me, you know I look at alcohol now as just i've seen so i've seen to destroy so many people that i've now kind of a look at and go and I don't I don't think people should drink and look, I get IT.

I'm kind of example like I used to drink and go out and have a good time and IT wasn't that big of deal that negatively impact me in some dramatic way. But I have so many friends that IT is horrible for IT IT is all but ruined their lives and you know it's totally legal which is kind of bizarre um so I think that figuring that out when I look back and the culture in the seal teams was very there is a very alcohol centric. And part of that is because you know that you got like it's just like a maternity is alcohol centric ora ora.

A football team is because you got a bunch a Young dude that are gonna drink and have a good time. So it's just sort of A A Young dude kind of thing. And unfortunately, IT IT ends up growing a lot of people's lives and they make bad decisions and they do stupid things.

And that is not good. And I think the culture is moving away from that a little bit. The seal teams um you know my my alcohol brief used to say I say tell my guys if you go out, you get A D Y, you get put in jail for a fight, you get hurt because you're doing something drunk.

You just did alkahest job for them. You just did our cars. They want to take you off the battle field and you just took yourself off the backfield.

You can go on appointment ment now and that would always hit guys. And I think that that you know, the seal teams is kind of leaning in that direction, more realizing the negative negativity of alcohol. I wish I would have realized that earlier.

I wish I would a bit a Better leader and recognize that at an earlier stage and recognized that just because I was kind of get away with IT, meaning I didn't really I did. I didn't wake up in the morning, then I can wait you. I I never really had that feeling.

I wish I would to realize that there's other guys that do and there's people that can Operate and be functional and IT doesn't rely impact their lives, but there's lot of people that don't. And I don't think it's worth the dice role to start drinking. I just don't think it's worth the ducal.

What do you get out of IT? So I think that overall, that's why if if when I think about alcohol, I just think about all the all, all the lives that is a ruined. And I don't like IT.

And I wish I would have done a Better job of saying, you know what, this probably not good, and we shouldn't do this. And unfortunate I didn't, and I try to convey that message as much as I can now. And I did bring me back to my roots, because when I was a kid, I was like alcohol as weak.

And you look at these guys, they don't know what they're doing. They're acting like idiots. I'm not gonna like that. And so, you know, as I got older, once I got all the system S I kind of went back to that.

Um as far as kind of where I became me, I I just actually have to go to a give a lot of credit to the music that I grew up listening to and the attitude that we had back then listening to hard corn music, being able to stand up against what other people were saying, which is what you're doing when you're in that scene and the whole DIY nature of IT. Hey, we we can just do this ourselves. We can just make this happen for ourselves.

We don't need any. We don't need anybody else. We can do this and that hard core attitude and sticking by your friends and standing up and get in fights and like that's what you're going to do, that kind of my attitude.

And I had interviewed for a documentary that they're making about hardly fan and and and the crown max. And you know when when I was a kid and actually feel my whole life like that, was that music is the soundtrack of my life. And so I always would have that music running in my head.

But to your question, I had something in me that when I heard that music for the first time, I was like, OK vit there. Here IT is, you know, here IT is, this is, you know, I hear the beetles, I hear the grateful dead, I hear the rolling stones, I hear the whoever, and you go. Okay, that's fine.

But when I heard hard corn music for the first time, when I heard the coral max, I heard a noise fault. I heard the bad brains. I thought IT was that was just like I was part of me already.

And then IT was the attitude. And and again, you can listen to my podcast was hardly plan, again, the way i've viewed, hardly atlantic, in the way i've viewed the cho max was not the way they actually were. I've been, you hardly was doing drugs, I mean, horrible drugs.

He was on hair and everything else. But his image was was like strategy, kind of spirit. They had all that stuff going on. And I thought, okay, well, that's what that I didn't know. I'm like a kid live in in the woods in connect cate, I just going, hey, hearing what i'm hearing, hit, listen the lyrics, listen the lyrics of thread, listen the lyrics and you go, okay, this stuff, I agree with this stuff.

And I just think that that kind of, kind of set my, my kind, set a datum in my head of being OK with being outside, being OK with saying no, being OK with being a rebel, be OK with not going along with what everyone else is doing. And that came, that became very important when I was in the military. And I looked at what leadership might be telling me to do and might think my self, hey, that doesn't seem like a good idea and having where to say, hey, boss, i'm not sure this is a good idea to be a jerk about IT, but just to say there might be a Better way to get this done.

What do you think of this? Or hey, boss, can ask you a question about that. So I I think if I had to trace IT back, you know, having black flag, my war side to on my record player for like a year and a half straight, that's gona leave a mark, man. And I think IT left mark on me.

I love what you just said. And when I say love, I really mean IT, because as we both know, we share a common love for certain music, in particular, minor threat and some stuff from the punk roxy, in particular for me, the northeast punk roxy, the bruisers, and how bar from the bruisers. And now people know, as the least for the drop kk morphs before was the Bruce we we run the risk of going deep down a rabbit hole of music that most people mayor may not be familiar with, although most people heard the drop cakes. But ah right there with you I know I remember the first time hearing differ.

Fingers are granted and even bouncing souls right for new jury, not even balancing all so so bouncing ing souls yes, that that's me that's IT like but as you said, he was already kind of knew it's like a recognition and I bring this up and I want to highlight IT, not because we share this, although I do find that to be an amazing kindness that we felt right away and was like we probably referred twenty five hours just on that. But IT brings me back this idea. That certainly is not my idea. Actually, the first time I heard about IT was from Robert Green, who wrote the book mastery and some important writings.

You very was that I think he was the forget how many laws of power, but those books, yeah, Robert masteries actually a book that I highly recommend people read because he talks about mentorship and finding mentors and the fact that we're supposed to break up and move on from mentors and that mentors aren't always people that we know that know us it's at our amazing book really um but he was the first person I ever heard describe this idea that if we think back long enough there, some seed moment I was shopping for the pants. Something that was but also music where you see something and it's like, yes, that's me and i'm that and then that becomes a sort of soundtrack or visual image or something for your life that you Carry forward with you. The neuroscientist and me wants to say that that is the first time that we really tap into this dopamine e system in a way that is unique to us, because every child responds to food with a little bit of doping when we're hungry, response to warmth when we're cold, response to a warm, dry dies after we just wet ourselves, which we all did.

I know maybe, jack, can you change your own diapers? But i'm guessing if someone changed your diver at one point, not an image path, we need to go down. But the idea is, is that we all have these universal sources of of having our needs met, go going from discomfort to comfort and back in, which is basically childhood.

But at some point something comes along that we really feel that is unique to us. And IT may be the thing that everyone else likes. Maybe it's top forty or whatever IT is, maybe is the shoe that everyone's wearing that seems good.

But I do think that there are certain people who are kind of ten or twenty or maybe even one hundred eighty degrees off from what everyone else likes and they like that thing is what's really cool. And it's a felt thing. And so along the lines are felt things as opposed to you things that everyone values.

What are your sources of motivation? And i'm going to guess that some of them are internal. We could point to head and we could point to heart doesn't really matter.

But like when you think of sources of motivation, do you have a pilot of them that you can dip into? Do you even feel the need to dip into them? Or is IT really just all about action steps throughout your day? Or if I can even venture until somewhat, you know, harder stories that afford you talk about? Do you sometimes think backing, listen, i'm going to do this because a bunch guys that are dead now I can't and i'm onna, do IT because I can.

What are you? What are the paints on your motivation? Pilot, if you will.

Well, you you probably heard me say that motivation isn't something that I am going to count on because it's just an emotion that's going to come and go and it's just like feeling happy. You feel happy right now. May be you won't feel happy in fifty minutes.

You feel sad now. Maybe you want to feel sad and fifty minutes feel motivated right now. You might not feel motivated in fifty minutes.

Therefore, I can't rely on IT. So i'm not going to put any I can put any money on just being motivated because IT doesn't really matter to me. So the daily actions that I take aren't from motivation there.

They're just from die. I said I am going to get up and go through some big about what would I really feel like doing this? No, I don't feel like doing, but is a matter so is gonna do IT.

Now if we start to look at sort of a brother movement through life and continuing to try and move forward and move on, you know, my body dsf died, and he was the delta patch e commander in tasking a bruer. And he he died in two thousand and seventeen and he was in a parachute t accident. And if IT was, I mean it's definitely unexpected.

Um and and also heat already ban through multiple deployment ments um was with with us with me in the battle remote. He then went back in the solar city in LED, a ton of very dangerous Operations, and then he did other deployments and was kind of done with his appointments, kind of done. And now he's just talking about when he's gona retire and he's a couple years away from retirement and know i'm talking about, hey, we're going to work together again and IT all seems like we're on a pretty good path tub, just move forward.

And then he ends up dying in in in a parachute accident and he's a guy that you know was really just kind of you you're not gonna be able to replace any any U. K. I can.

There's a unique enim to him that is you're not gone to find and got some stuff that he wrote. He was an incredible writer. And I would like try and write something like him.

And we can do IT because he had bigger vocabulary and a more articulate way of writing. And so I can't write anything as well as he wrote that he was incredible, like guitar. He played guitar, played uka. I like sick, like an incredible at playing guitar. And he's a total nuckles dragger, like a total meat head knocked dragger. You know his nickname was unfrozen caveman because he just he just um you know look like a big cave man and yet he spoke french and you know could recite french poetry and was really good at learning languages. And he was an artist and he had, you know what in synthetic iza is you know that is emerging .

of the census of people that can see colors.

And so he didn't know what I was I sorry.

see colors, but most people can see collars are sorry that can hear colors and um and can associate particular collars sound would like particular keys on the piano it's it's pretty rare some people think they have IT but two. And as egypt are pretty rare, but they don't have to fight for this trait and just kind of emerges for them he didn't know IT.

but one day he was song in me and he was embarrassed to tell me he's like, you know, it's weird, is I when I think of numbers, I I have colors in my head and and I go what he mean, he says, hello was zero and I remember seven is yellow, I don't remember any, but he just ragged off, like, one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, know he says, you know, hello, White, clear all, you know, just rattled off these colors.

So he had this, this, he had that decisions, and he gave him some kind of weird ability to memorize numbers. So um you know he'd be in a bar and talk with some girl and he say, what is your number and he would just he would know IT for two years he would just know IT. And that also made him incredibly good at playing guitar because now, like the scale and the front board of a guitar, this is a mathematical thing that he has all in this weird, this weird coloration scenario going on.

So there's so he's this guy and you know, very a very emotional guy, a very emotional guy, who would, you know, I was talking earlier about being a baLance for someone. I had a baLance. This dude out on a daily basis, sometimes IT d be so mad about something.

You know, one day you be, I hate the teams. I hate all these guys and i'd say, and I to get a man in the next day, i'll never get out of the teams. You know, he would associate that bad and I would tell them, hey, hey Brown, you're always late again and just what would do anything and he and he love these guys and would do anything for these guys.

And so when he died, you know where where eat is is not as funeral before the funeral. It's like the the open casket thing, the wake thing and myself. His brother alex live babin, who wrote extreme ownership with an jp to know who's one of my brother who who works with us at national on front now is with us in remote, was very close to south and and we're like everyone kind of cleared out for us and we we go in there.

And I think jp gave him, J P had won those memorial bracelets with guy's names on IT that he died in. Jp gave that to him. And I think live gave him some surf wax because also said was was a surfer and and I gave seh his black belt because he started change jey with me and he he had his purple belt.

He'd gotten this purple belt. A game is black belt and and everyone is just quiet and you know, jp was told the story the other day. And and I just said, we will not fail him.

Meaning that him, mark, miki, Chris safe and countless other guys that they're not here. They don't have the opportunity to do the things we do. They don't have they don't have the opportunity get up in the morning.

so. That's what IT is, men. I won't fail those guys.

Thanks for share that .

um yeah thank good.

Anyone listening to this feels what I feel right now, which is it's very clear that the. The depth of emotion for people that we care about and lose is has everything to do with our love for them. There's just no question about IT, right? That grief and love are so in intimately tied they they are direct reflection of one another.

And I unite. I hesitate to can stay on hard teams, but I think it's really important for a couple of reasons. Last time we spoke was in your office and um your podcast and after we wrapped up, we started talking about some people we know and some things that had happened in your community and kind of spoiled into some discussions about things that happened in nearby communities and civilian culture.

And you know one of the things that so perplexing, I think, to people. Including me, but maybe with time less so. And this actually came up last night a discussion at home because of some recent events.

Not close to me, but she's that yet. Some people go through things where there is lost. They go through life and there's hardship. I think most people experience some hardship, certainly some more than others, and everyone's in a while and far too often.

And even in the seal community and even in the various communities within the seal team community, where one would never expect IT right, is a highly trained, tight community, hard guys, right? That's the language we sometimes here. But as you point out, these are people often have tremendous emotional debt. I am so glad you brought that up because I think we.

You know, I sometimes think of his motion as weakness, but there was a time not long ago, forty, fifty years ago, where emotions like jealousy and intensity think the character Sunny and the godfather, like you will get so passed over fist, right? As pretty emotional response where intensity and emotion were kind of interchangeable words, right? At some level i'm .

going .

to be direct. There have been log guys come out the sea. Al teams have been surprised to hear that kill themselves. And yesterday there was a major suicide.

I didn't know this guy because we actually followed each other on social, but I admittedly was not close to know at all. In fact, this thing was twitch or something to lose. The sky was a is public facing figure.

But listen happens all too often, and IT even happens in former Operators and suicide, something that fascinates me and intrigues me and scares the hell me. Because for the life of me, I cannot map IT to any specific thing in the brain or body that we're aware of. And yet my, i've had several friends commit suicide, had undergraduate visor commit suicide.

The point is not them where they are. The point is what in the world dict ates, whether not somebody who has a community. Who's doing well and then less well.

Decides to offer themselves to end their own life versus, you know, decide ama, keep going. This, i'm raising this this question. I wish I had an answer.

I you have ideas like all its time perception. You know, with these people are so feeling so miserable that they feels it's going to go on forever. But then you start reading the literature on suicide.

And I started to go into, this is for those people that can stomach IT. And I don't know that I want to recommend this movie, but i'm just gonna IT the movie, the bridge where they fixed the camera on the school gate bridge for a year. IT turns out one person a day, on average, tries to jump off, talk to a guy who arrived IT, by the way, he jumped off. The moment he went off there, he've thought, I wish I hadn't done that. He survived his kid with bipolar, bipolar disorder, especially males, twenty to thirty times higher incidents of suicide.

massive and increase.

The point is that there's something that happens in the brain where somehow people also will get the idea. You hear this, that this is like something they're cited to do, or that they're gonna write the world somehow by doing this, or that somehow it's like a gift to themselves. Again, i'm not encouraging anybody do this.

I wants to be very clear. But these are the things that you hear. And sadly, your community has lost a number of people through suicide, and yet there a lot of guys that thrive. And so more as a template for trying to understand mental health and depression and suicide, what are your thoughts on why some people seem to thrive and some people just go all the way down?

Clearly, there's a that's a very complex question and there's probably a lot of different answers. And I certainly am not want to be able to answer that question.

However, um probably where my where my thought has gone on this lately because you i've known some guys that have killed themselves and i've been totally shocked, but and just been completely and totally shocked that guys that I knew kill themselves, guys that you you would think other guy would would never do this in a million years and that's the feeling i've had a lot about a lot of the guys that I know that have killed themselves. I had A A woman on my podcast name, Sarah wilkinson, and he is an awesome woman and he was married to a CEO. His name was chat.

I didn't know he could themselves, he, and to hear her describe the story, that the shocking thing about the story is that the guy that he knew, the guy that SHE married, was not the same guy that killed himself. Something happened to him that made him a different person. And look there, they're getting all this information now about C, T, E.

And the the the brain trauma that you go through and people are exposed to that. And I think, you know, if you've ever seen you, George forma, he seems totally Normal and good to go right and mahamane I not so much and have known fighters. And you can look at any number of boxers that i've had a career, and some of them are fine, and some of them have some real significant.

What is IT peul isc um peul isc syndrome, right? Theyve been punched too much and they have problems. So different people you can expose different people to blast blast impact and it's going to have a different impact over time.

And I think that um you know again to hear Sarah explain that story and what he saw from her husband and how different he was when they got married compared to where they ended up. It's totally different. It's totally different.

Person um had another friend of mine on who name Marks coupon and his wife came on with him and SHE said the same thing like the guy that SHE married was not the same guy that was ready to come often and he didn't thankfully, IT was a different person and it's not look, you know if you get know fred is married to some woman and fred and Jessica grow apart over time and and he ends up with some other girl. He's still the same guy, right? Is still the same guy.

That is now if they grew apart, they're getting divorce. We get IT. But the way that both of them described their husband's as being different people, that's what stuck with me more than anything else.

So I you know again, i'm throwing this out there only because it's what i've observed for the people that I know and seeing and hearing those stories of people being totally different. Um and and i've known a few people. One of my friend's dave killed him.

M I never I never want to guess a million years that day would to kill him. Self, I just did. IT doesn't compute. IT doesn't compute. And so my suspicion is there has to be something going on mechanically or chemically with the brain that causes them to get into a mode where their depressed me to see a way out and that that's the way they feel now.

And again, what's what's interesting about this is we really talked about the fact that the selection the selection process without bt guys that are going na take a loss and not be able to get get up again. No, you've got seals. Seals can take a loss and get back up again.

That's what you learn how to do a bit or that's what you you don't arn how to do. You you have IT. And if you make IT through that training, you have that ability to take a loss.

Are I cool, shake IT off, get back up, keep going gonna do that. you. So now you've got guys that are taking a loss and don't see a way out anymore, in fact, to such a point that they're going to take their own lives.

It's um I my suspicion is at some point you're going to figure out that that this exposure to you know to the genuine the exclusion explosions all the time, I mean you go out to arrange just just in in peace time, you ve got to arrange, you shoot a coral good stuff and you're arrange safety officers. So you go out there with every guy that shoot cargo stops to big giant like bizco looking weapon. And every time you shoot you kind of rails, you cage a little bit.

Well, you're a rain safety officer and you're out there and you're going to watch everyone in the bottle on shoot three of those. It's going to have an impact when you go overseas and you're breach you or you're part of a breach team. I mean that the time we're one of my guys, we're doing assault on the compound.

I'm on the latter, like most buildings in iraq have a wall around them. So the way we would conduct these rates, put the latter up the assault, the breach team would climb over the latter. And I would go right behind the breach team and I would stand on the latter.

So i'm looking at the building observing, making sure there's no one waking up because there's no threats. And then as i'm watching this guy in particular, he puts the breach on the door, explosive breach. So he's gna blow the door up. He's got a little team with them. He he puts the breach on the door.

He starts the back away and there's like an office was like a freak on table or a long chair something and he couldn't get around IT and i'm said its dark me it's the middle of night, two o'clock in the morning and i'm like, I wonder gona do I seem kind of stuck for a second and I just seem laid down and i'm like, oh, is going to take this thing and sure enough, you know, three or four feet away from this breach point, he lays down and just cracks off this explosive charge. And I jump up for the wall and as i'm going in, i'm china, you know, get the rest of portunus to go. Commences a soul.

I look at him. He he looked like he just got, you know, he and head of the baseball back. And guess where we did the next night? Another breach on another target.

Guess we did the next night. Another breach on another target. So you get guys that have that exposure, which is, I mean, every seals eating a breach.

I mean, you're eaten flash banks, you're eaten breaches your shoot and fifty calls, you're eaten some some traumatic brain injury, but then you you must have some people that have some sort of genetic uh, propensity to have this negative thing happened and and I I can only guess, man, that this has something to do with IT because otherwise, you know, we wouldn't be here in so many of these stories. And and of course, we're just talking about the seal teams. We're not talking about the military writ large, which is in the same exact boat.

I'm also nervous about the social contagion of suicide within the veteran community. I am nervous about that. It's one of the things that makes me apprehensive about talking about IT.

But I obviously i've talked about I had people on my podcast to discuss these things um but I I am worried about that social condition of man you know fred did IT you know he got all this attention and he doesn't have to deal with anything anymore. I'm gonna IT too. There's got to be some level of that going on as well. So it's a horrible situation.

Yeah, the social contagion, paris, one that hits home from a different dimension. The high school I went to, which is name, is an important by gun high school. G, N, N.

Gun high school is famous for being one of the Better public high schools. Not that I attended as much as I should have tell you more about the curbs in the parking lot than I could tell about the classes I took. And that's just not encouraging people to not attend high school.

Please do IT took a lot of really hard work to climb back up to where I should have been when I graduate. But IT has an infamous reputation, reputation as an informal school because it's one of the high suicide rates, any of the schools in the country because there's a train tracks that runs through town and the there was a kind of a contagion of kids threw themselves on the train tracks. This was happening a lot.

This was written up in very few newspapers that that are, fortunately, this seems to have died down again. I'm also hesitant to like talk about this because no one wants to Spark this. But there does seem to be something about lack of ability to see into the future, obviously, or the future that people are seeing into is so dark, somehow they lose touch with the area that emotions come and go.

You said IT about emotions, about motivation, emotions come and go, but somehow people lose touch with that. And then I I will venture a guess. And here i'm hoping someone going to figure this out at some point so we can have a more concrete conversation about the mechanisms and what to do about IT.

But I think there's also something about identity, about loss of a place to put one's energy, something useful in the world. You know, if you're gender you're talking about, here are guys that that are generators, right? They are not projectors.

There are generated. They they live to have effective action on the world for good and then and killing themselves in youth. It's a little more complicated to put put a finger on, you know, because what what's going on there.

We assume depression. But then in learning more about suicide, there is also this kind of like excitement of for certain people, about solving something that seems done, solvable any their way. And again, i'm not certainly not encouraging this. I strong ly discouraging people from taking their own life, but something about time in the loss of perception, about time.

And one thing that we know for sure here, we can really hang our head on something, is that if you do the forensics on somebody that was suicidal, attempted or took their life in the proceeding days, in weeks, their sleepy ke schedule was completely waked. They they exit the Normal routine of most people they isolate through inversions of time. And I do wonder sometimes whether not the vampire shifts as there sometimes all the nights deployment in the back and for them and that's a lot for a system.

Shift workers kill themselves far more than non shift workers. Um so I do think there's something there. And again, i'm not saying everyone needs to be in bed by nine and up four and although that would be a great schedule for most people, but I do think that there are some universal laws of what makes the human body and brain healthy. And if you violated those laws along enough with CT year, with disruption in your schedules, you run the risk, especially if there's a pretty position there. And then other factors starts a layer in. And I have to apologize because I don't have any real answers or more biology or psychology to firmly throw this except the the warning for people who are bipolar or know somebody with bipolar, they are twenty to thirty times more likely to give himself and males in particularly more likely to use methods that will kill them in the first time as supposed to survive. There is a big sex difference .

there yeah he throw alcohol in there too um you know and and mark is run in organization now where they are take they are taking vets down to do the psychiatric um what they call a journey.

This is veteran solutions yeah I there are a great organization. You and I should meet you, very bipartisan organization. I attended one event on corne, and there were people from the far left, the far right politicians and everything in between talking about how critical this is. This is not a political issue. This is a mental health show.

Yeah and even when I reflected on Marcus talking to me, he was talking about how he's kind of in this downward spiral, part of the downing spiral he was drinking everyday. And i'm thinking of myself, man, like I didn't think of IT during the show. I kind of was thinking about IT afterwards.

I was thinking, man, like, you think if you're drink in all the time, you're on the downspout. Al, like that's one thing. You should just stop. Let's stop that immediately. So I just wanted to throw that out there. I know I think when that's another sign from the outside looking in, if someone's self medicating with alcohol is not a good place, not a good place, they're not a good place and they they could probably use some help.

I appreciate you saying that again, we did this episode on alcoa. I went into a totally open minded i've never been a big drink or I ve had IT. I can drink or not drink IT was never really into drug um at all.

You double a little bit when I was Younger, I regret IT. Frankly, brain is plastic early on. I and me that never did hard drugs, never touch, go can and fade in or anything like that. So and if I had, I would say, right, comfortable engh in my position life.

That if I had, I certainly say, but I think that it's pretty clear that alcohol bad for us is certainly past a certain you know to drink a week limit people especially with the propensity for alcoholism or who are dealing with other issues. That's especially the case for not drinking, right? And I guess know we got one into some hard territory here. But I I think if this conversation chews up awareness to anybody, which I hope IT would, either people later in that space of wondering if they should continue not, or they know somebody who might be, I do think that the takeaway is very clear, which is that you there are ways to avoid these traps and to avoid making these traps worse. And I think we regularly ly wake schedules understanding that. And I wrote this down that you know, youth particular have several times they, rather than looking for sources of things outside you like a job or relationship, but what you're all great, but as sources of energy or motivation or inspiration, to use action as a positive action as a source of energy, I think is that just if if I could like put that up on a billboard in times square, I would, right, and I put your name next to IT, which is that action is a positive action as a source of energy that then you can recycle and to more things. I think, yes, yeah, going back to the fundamentals.

right? yeah. And and positive action is when you have to contend with something, when there's something that you're afraid of, right, step into IT, move towards IT, that that's how you're going to solve that problems.

You don't solve problems by running away from them. You solve them by moving towards them and figure out what's going in on and and I mean, alcohol, obviously a clear way to avoid the problem at least for the next four hours. And you wake up and that problems still there.

And that's not that's not good. But you know when you've got to some kind of a problem and listen, then we can get go down the whole path of talking about the indirect approach, which is the a theory of combat, which I completely believe in. But IT also applies to you interacting with other people. If you have a problem with some other person to think of what I got a problem with the entry, what to go confront on IT and and that might not be the best solution, in fact, is probably not the best solution for me to go confront you with the problem, because now we're onna have a confrontation IT might be Better for me to take an indirect approach and not confront you, but instead engaged in a conversation with you about something that maybe adjacent to the problem that I have.

And then eventually that builds our relationship to a point where you start to recognize, oh, I bet joke feels something about this thing and we can move towards a solution instead of me trying to punch you in the face with some truth that I believe verse, the truth that do you believe now we're engaging combat and that's bad. There's going to be casualties. I'd rather take an indirect approach and build a relationship where we can solve problems in a more positive way.

Love that. And I love IT because I really speaks to the power of thinking carefully in being patient in a little bit slower at times. I also heard you say something earlier that still flagged in my mind, which is, you know, not thinking too much. This seems to be a time where thinking too much is very dangerous. And again, we can keep the discussion that we were having about mental health, or even call what is mental, this, I think everyone will degree suicide, reflection of an unhealthy state.

We can keep that in .

the book shop as we talk others. But this isn't necessarily only about that. You seem have an ability to engage in things without thinking too much.

And he had also to sit back and be pretty observant. And you've talked about third personal of the self. I'd love to talk a bit more about this, even though it's a topic you have been to before, and in particular the topic of meditation.

I've been reading more about meditation. I've for different stretches my life, different amounts of time. And there are two basic forms of meditation that I only recently learned about.

One is a focus, attention meditation. You're sitting, closing your eyes, focusing on your breath, body, body surface, or even a visual target in your environment, and just focus. And we know that, that enhances one's ability to focus.

You do too late in the day and also enhance your ability to not fall a sleep. I don't realize the meditation too late in the day. If it's a focused meditation, you're just rapping up the activity in the prompt cortex.

It's a great tool for getting Better at focusing. But then there's also this type of meditation called open observer meditation, where you purposefully don't include a target in your mind or in your vision or in your hearing. And you just sit there, eyes, clothes, eyes open, and you go into a place of whatever comes up, but you don't cover there too long.

The goal is to not hover on anyone thing that sounds like deliberate attention deficit disorder, but it's actually a pretty cool method, IT turns out, for restoring our ability to engage in focus. But also for one particularly thing that you mentioned earlier, which is creativity and creative problem solving, which of course requires accessing, is to say more colors on the pilot than your vision might be on realizing, oh, there's also all these other colors over here in the periphery that i'm missing to the hyper focus. Do you meditate? If you do meditate, is IT more of an open monitoring or focus meditation in if you don't do a kind of standard meditation? Are there times throughout your day, in your routine, in your week, where, as i'm describing this, IT maps to something that kind of feels like open monitoring or focus meditation?

yes. So no, I don't meditate. I haven't ever I don't think i've ever actually meditated for one second in my life.

And I and I refuse to go.

It's not that at all. I do sam Harris sent me as happen he and we are going to do upon count I i'll do IT for two weeks and we'll do upon castle and i'll be more enlightened than everything. And I didn't even give same here as two weeks, you know? So I still always same here as two weeks on his APP of meditation, so we can see how that impacts me.

But no, i've never done that before. I've never tried to do IT. And that being said, if the goal is to take a step back and to attach from what's going on, I do that all day, every day.

So the that that is something that i've talked about and something that I tried to teach, you know, I tried to teach the Young seal leaders. Not to get caught up in what's happening right in front of them, but to take a step back, detach from the situation, detached from their emotions. c.

More of what happened? Know you're talking about seeing more colors of the pilot. Well, on the battle field, I want people to be able to see more angles, more maneuvers, more opportunities, more of what the enemy might do, more perspective.

That's what, that's what I always tried to achieve. And so I am sorry, I apologized. I can give you any good discussion on meditation because I haven't haven't .

tried IT no apology necessary. But I will ask, when you go surfing and you're sitting in the water waiting for a wave, are you focused on one particular location horizon? Or you kind of in kind of a open mooring just enjoying just bouncing up and down in the water, like where is your attention during activities like that?

yes. So surfing often times surfing you, you, you, you're a monkey mind and you're just not thinking about anything. Same thing with you also with surfing.

You know, if you're waiting for a wave, your mind is just going. I mean, it's it's in another universe. Sometimes as you're sitting, they are waiting because you're just looking out at the horizon. And you, your mind, I mean, my mind and i'm thinking about all kinds. I I have to come.

I have to come home sometimes and like right notes, because I thought of this, I thought of an idea, I thought of a perspective that happens to me, a judge to, that happens to me talking to people, where are someone talking about something I like, got a good idea, right? I would right that down, have to go and write IT down. I have notes in my phone, you know, like pages and pages and pages of notes in my phone of ideas that I had. And I write him now.

give voice memo things. Or I type.

I only need the type, like seven words on on. And then I have the whole ideas in my head.

So yeah, I put a lot into the note in my phone as well, and I pretty looks like gybed h to allow you. But I go back through when among the plane, especially problems, I was chAllenged with ten years ago or something.

And I look, oh, i'm dealing with the same thing, different situation, same, same me, right there is that we had an amazing psychiatrist on the show that i'd love IT to hear a conversation between the two, the two of you, his name is paul. You trained at stanford. Harvey, amazing guy, as he talks openly about the the tragedy that his brother killed themselves, which was what drove him in a, and he's interesting eye, because he is obviously highly educated, incredibly smart, but a book on trauma.

But he has incredible knowledge about a number of other areas of psychology, including narcisa sociopathy. He's watching a lot of really interesting domains with interesting people that everyone living in this podcast would recognize. Of course, he's not going to reveal who those people are.

But and you know, he talks about the fact that know you can look at different people like he was actually the one that shared with me this notion of generators and um projectors and directed me told that literature but when he came on the park cast he you know he talked a little bit about that stuff, what he talked mostly about trauma. But then we are talking about ways in which people engage in the world and different architect es, and how you start looking at stories throughout history. You starting the same themes over and over, right?

Western, you know this idea guy rides in the town and does some repair work like defeats the sinister person or things that are imposing on the on the rides to the next town. It's always like IT ends with it's going to keep continuing. And then but when we go to this discussion of relationship we talks about, you know, he said is on the podcast of a patient who know said, you know, i've had been in ten abusive relationships and he'd say to that patient now you've been in one relationship ten times, right, which is essentially it's all about your issue, right? That's not you i'm not previously didn't point at you for those listening.

And I think that those features of ourselves that we bring from dish, the condition can be negative. That can be positive. One thing that's interesting, and here i'm not trying to solve a or understand the seal team community persue, but I think they represent important architect because they are selected for this ability to take uh, hard conditions and failures and turn them into winds.

That's one of the selection criteria. Seems seems to be they're finding who has that capability. I see a lot of and happen to know of you people from the seal teams who get out and do really well, really a great business as you're A A shining example of this and have a family and you german sher, imo, and you train and i'm sure you have your dark places, dark moments and chAllenges like anybody else.

But things look to me like they are going pretty well. And then I also know people in the from the seal teams, okay, they don't go down the path of suicide, fortunately, but it's sort like they don't do as well as I would have thought. And i'm certainly not picking on this community.

I also see this from people were professional athletes. I know kids that were phenomenal in high school. I mean, these they were like early admission to all the ivy schools because that was what happened in the town that I grew up in. And I look at them now and i'm like, wow, like that cash .

I didn't .

somehow it's not working out. And I think it's important for people to hear that that you know, yes, winning creates the propensity for more winning. Then why do you think IT is that in .

a community where .

people are trained to solve problems, adapt and make things work, some people flourish outside the military, and some flourished less, and some we already talked about, really, you know, go down the the dark traps.

What what do you think is the quality that allows people to be really adaptable, in particular, because most of us live in a landscape where we have to deal with people who are not us like people that are not good at what we're good at. And sometimes that's an asset. Sometimes it's not you seem to be particularly good at like understanding the human animal and working with that.

So again, this is a broad question. We're going very broad band here and we'll get narrow in a bit. But I love your thoughts on that.

Why is IT? How is IT? What determines whether or not somebody thrives in novel environments?

I have to start off. But just by saying I wrote a note as you were talking, I just put seal and then I put the not equal sign, you know, like because you can't say that a seal equals anything.

I mean, there's guys there's guys that have been in the sill teams that are are murders like there's like real life more like murder, like rapist and murders that went through seal training, rapist murders and their in prison for the rest lives like that a thing. There's people that have been in the seal teams that you know got kicked out the seal teams for drugs. And I mean, you name IT, and we've got that and we've got guys that are just lazy and we've got guys that just is in physicians.

You could say this about physicians have been sociopathic um you know serial killer physician ans and then there are ones that are in the bal countries right now that would not accept a billion dollars to stop serving people at the level of the basic medicine that they they deserve.

So there's the other there's the seals that get out and he is volunteer to to go help in the borst places in the world. So you've got a full spectrum of people. So to say a CEO equals success in any domain.

The only domain you can say that they're successful as they made IT through basic train because guys make IT through basic ultrafine and there's not good seals like that happens, you know. So you get guys that make IT through basic seal training and they make IT through seal qualification training and they make IT to a seal team and they get kicked out of the seal teams because they're not good seals. They weren't meant to do that job.

That happens. So all they've proven by making IT through, basically you're training as they can kind of suck IT up for a while. And there's also guys that make IT through basic seal training because they learned how to maneuvre through the system.

They learned what to do and what the minimum required were and how they can skate through. There's guys like that. It's not a huge number, but they're absolutely there.

We see them in science, you know, people that go to a lab figure out who the director of the lab is at the level of psychology. And this is actually one of the more dangerous aspects of science and actually negatively impacts all of society, I would just say. And any scientists will know what i'm talking about.

They find the big famous labs. They figure out who that leader of the labs, and they get that person the data they want. They might not make the data up, but they will certainly discard the data that don't fill right that, which is one way of making data up by exclusive, right? It's not literally like painting pictures of cells that aren't there are only 礼拜 that happens a lot。 And those people often go far.

They rarely go all the way because pretty soon their reputation know expands to the point where people go like, yeah and no one can repeat that result like that. But these people sit in very high positions, not at stanford, right? I will say I don't know any my colleagues is stanford that that meet that those criteria.

But you see them and you see what they're doing. They're basically solving a social engineering. They just happen to be doing IT in science.

Now why anyone would do that in science, I don't know, because you don't get rich in science. You certainly don't get famous. But for whatever reason, they figured that out. And that's where they are going to do IT. And i'm sure you see in law firms, i'm sure you see in every single domain .

now you point IT out that there is some people that make IT to the ivy league schools. And I graduate from an ivy league school and they don't do well. And to me, that's very similar to someone that might make IT.

The sea l teams do well in the seal teams, and then they get out. I don't do well. It's probably because what I talked about earlier when I went to navy boot camp, here's what you ve got to do.

If you do that well, you'll be rewarded well. If you're in high school and your dad, your mom and dad say, hey, if you do good in high school, you're going to get into this I V league school and you're in iv league and. Here's what you need to do in high school.

You need to get good grades. You need to be part of the glee club. You need whatever the things are that you ve got to do. You gotta speak a different language.

You ve got to go volunteer, and in ga, ma, in the summer time, you got got to do these things, and then you'll get into the good college. When you get the good college, you gotta get this degree. Once you get that degree.

So you've had a path laid out for them of boxes to check, and they go check the boxes. And when they get done, no one has put any more boxes on front of them. And so they don't know what to do.

And and that can certainly happen from in the from someone in the seal teams or someone in the military that what they're been, hey, this is mission. This is what you got to do. Here's what you need to do.

Do well. Check the box, check the box, check the box. Check the box in the to retire. And there's no one put in a box in front of to check.

And so unless someone you know some guys get out of the seal teams and they they go into a big corporate structure and they kick us because they're someone in the corporate corporate world saying, hey, you going to do next year and they do great and that's super good for them. And they actually really like IT. I've talked to a guy the other day, he's like a fall in a corporation is doing a great job.

He he likes what he's doing. It's awesome. So but I think you you get some guys that, that they they don't really have the open minds to see where opportunities are. And they you know one thing is nice about the seal teams is, is there's a lot of you get a lot of freedom of maneuvre, right? You can really do a lot of stuff that you kind of want to do.

And so when they look at the corporate world, they don't see that think I don't i'm not going to do that, but they're not quite sure how to take the next step. So I think that's why you might see some guys that aren't super successful because they don't really know what to do and they don't really have a mind that's open to look for opportunities. And and also, you got some guys that success for them is they're going to hang out with their family and they are going to, you know, getting good shape and they're going to run some trifles ones or competing for whatever they're going to do.

They're going to go do, and that's what they're looking to do, you know, which is which is also awesome. Go take time. Go enjoy your family, man, you gave enough to your country. Go, go hanging out with your kids. That success, as far as i'm concerned too.

I agree there. I know far too many people who are successful in their professional lives, but who have very diminished personal lives. And that is not a pretty picture you know you mention the um the parent kind of driving the kid do this do that in that scenario a sense tones of fear.

It's all about not being a failure. It's not actually about love of your craft or what you enjoy. Pretty early in my science career, I learned that there's certain people are just the ambitious.

They just like to win and used to joke around it's not polite, but I used to go, you know, we should all just tell that person that like the new cool thing is like trying to understand the biology of like, and I would say like faces or something and the'd probably work on IT. They feel like, yeah, it's like the great thing because they actually don't care they're working on for them is just the hunt. And I learned that actually people like that can serve an important role because, like, well, there's actually a whole microban.

There are actually labs that do work on fc. So forgive me, my microcode gues that work on microban bs. But in all seriousness, you know, people who are just ambitious can be very effective because you put a problem in front of them, it's like a dog will just retrieve.

It's like to just go as opposed to love of retrieving for retrieving sicker because like you give you give that same dog, they can you here you give that same of a high jumping and like into high jumping, right, or whatever IT is, or diving underwater. But I think of people more like animals and more like different dog species, like we at, as your case was with music, particular music and communities or the example of shopping for the pants. And that experience, like the first time you happened to something that really feels kind of unique to you, you like there's something here to be able to find work that includes that, but also is hard and also allows you to evolve over time.

I think I think that's that's the real that's the real gift that I think most people are seeking. And of course, there's no shortcut to that except perhaps one which is to be able to sense the difference between the ambition. And there is no Better word for you.

I just call what IT is, which is love like I I love this. And the reason I think that love is so powerful here i'm sounding like like freeman. But I don't mean into relational love. I I mean less of the being able to sense what that feels like is that I do believe that IT allows us to tap into an enormous number of things that fear alone and ambition alone in just being a hard driving person alone will not allow us to tap into things like adaptiveness creativity and there.

And I think there's a really obvious reason for IT, which is that the one thing we know about our species is that we want to make more of ourselves and to take good care of our Young. Whether not everyone has kids or not is irrelevant. The point is that every species not only wants to do that, need to do that, and the feeling of love is really what allows us to be adaptable.

I don't think there's anything that trains up adaptations as much as being around kids. You just have to be adaptable or right, because they're check one moment they are up, then they're down and they are disappoint. So and you share A A really important story about loss of somebody that clearly you loved and that clearly loved the community he worked in IT wasn't just that you guys loved him and that he guys, he loved you guys.

And I think that being able to tap into these feelings of love for things, for people and for experiences, I think, is so critical. And, you know, I don't meditate much these days, but I have heard of this like loving kindness, meditation. And I would sound so soft to me.

I was thinking, like, gosh, what am I suppose? Then float. Like levitated the end.

And like, where you? mr. Whatever he is colder.

I know what's the thing, but I, my friend, fortunate to call a friend, not trying to name drop. I'm very fortunate. Rick rub in the music. C producer, a friend, and he was the one who start turning me on to different forms of meditation, the ones I mentioned before in this idea that there are forms of meditation which put us in touch with what he calls the source. Now, this is really getting a little missed cle. But I think this all maps back to the same thing, which is that there are sources of doped and the other neurotransmitters ors in us that give us kind of a super power to adapt to anything. And I think it's at least includes love because that's the most adaptable emotion by definition, because of what's required for evolution. So the question therefore is in yourself and in your observation of people that you ve worked with, did you ever sense that just being heart driving was kind of IT was great, but IT was limiting? Like did you ever sense that like by liking the people you work with, you could perform much Better even if they perhaps were not as hard to kind to borrow the the common parLance around this, they worked as hard as everybody else that because you like each other so so much that you can kind of do anything well.

if you have a team of ten people and you all have a great relationship and you get along well and you're going against my team. And we all hate each other, we're who's going to win .

the team that loves each other. Gna win.

I would hope it's not even closed. It's not a matter of fact. If you work for me and you don't like me, what kind of performance are you .

going to give me?

It's gonna tough. What if you love me? And i've looked out for you and i've done everything for you and i've taken care of you. What kind of .

performance are you give me everything I die for.

So yeah you know earlier you you asked about um the human animal and human nature and this is part of leadership.

I can ask this question in the day by, as a working with the company, and the guy says, you know, how do I identify what are the characteristics of someone that can execute? And how do I identify those characteristics in a person so that I can get those people? And I said, well, first of all, the characteristics are the characteristic that everybody know.

Obviously, someone that's driven something that communicate well, someone can make things happen, is pretty simple to I to know. We know what they are. How do you identify? It's prety simple as well.

I give you a task. I give and you a task to prety. Simple task, if you get IT done.

cool. Give you a little bit more complex task. Do you get IT done? Yes, I give, give the same task of thread.

He doesn't get IT done. He comes back to the launch questions. He's slow roles. If you ve got all kinds of excuses and problems, I give you an even more complex ask. You come back, you get IT done.

And then I need to realized, okay, and he's a guy that that makes things happen. He's a guy that can actually execute. I need a little bit what you said.

I mean, there a certain breeds of dogs, but even that is there's they're not as as as different as human beings are, right, like there and there are. So so now there are some guys i've got to Andrew, whom will make things happen. Here's the problem with Andrew when I say, hey Andrew, here's this nebulous idea that I have.

Can you turn this into a reality? And you're like, where do I start? I'm not sure where you want me to go.

Meanwhile, I gave IT to the guy that didn't make anything happen with specific tasks I gave him. And he comes back and says, you know, I say, hey, I got this nevva less idea. Can you see you? He goes, so, oh yeah.

And all the sun he takes IT. He says, he fired out a way to make this happen. So you might have someone that's very good at executing, but they're not very creative.

I might have someone that's very creative, but they're not very good at executing. So what do I do? I build a team or i've got and rune, fred, and they work together.

And fred comes up with good ideas and we bring him to Andrew, and Andrew goes and execute them. So that's what we're doing from a leadership perspective, is we're letting people's nature execute and were putting people into roles where their nature is beneficial. I'm not gonna someone that's shy and introverted and put him out on the lead sales.

Well, i'm not gonna somebody that boy stress and extroverted and put them into a cubicle where there's going to be looking at spreads. Its all day. Clearly i'm not going to do that.

So what we have to do as leaders is we have to find the right people for the right role, and we place them into those roles. Now does that mean that I abandon all hope that the guy that's an introvert will ever develop more communication skills? Now i'm so gonna with them, and over time, we'll give him a little bit moving in the right direction. But i'm not gonna somebody that's .

uh uh uh uh .

a total introvert and turn them into a sales guy that's not going to happen more than a changing tiger stripes. So that's what we have to do is we have to help people as leaders. We have to help people find the role and find the thing that they're good at.

Now does that mean if I have someone that loves their job, they're gonna do Better at IT? absolutely. Does that mean that if I have somebody that's driven just by achievement that they're going to be good at their job? No, in fact, well, they can be.

There is going be certain rules I can put them in, right? If you've got a sales number I need to hit and an Andrew super renda achievement. He he wants to be the golden child who wants to have his picture on the on the you know magazine that we put out about our industry.

cool. I can throw this task get and and you're gonna go and get IT. The problem is if there's something that's going to take more perseverance and the reward isn't that high or it's a long term goal, you're probably not the right guy for the job.

So liking your job is absolutely critical. And if you love your job, you're going to be able to be going to be able to most likely excel at IT. Now you could be an unfortunate a person that love is, your job is not good at IT.

That happens. A K, me, right?

I resumed. Very rare. That reminds me of your skateboarding career. You.

but you would know what I love more than I love the community I was in. I love the community I was in. And I and you know I probably have gone to the industry side.

I worked on the company side, not been on the actual skybox side or just skateboard for fun. So there's a guy in the skate board command named jim zebra, and he's kind the not so hidden secret in that community. He's an amazing guy.

And he, a early on, left professional skateboarding to run a company real dioxys a bunch of other other companies is amazing guy. And he told me that we become friends recently. He said he realized he wasn't going to one of the big guys, but he knew he wanted be in this community.

So he found his place. And I think everyone escape and looks to gms like the, who are he? You know, he cares. He truly cares about the sport and about the people and so he learned to kind of just rap his arms and is hard around the whole thing and IT just works. And so I do think um everyone has a certain place in a community or in a team.

I think that as you're describing this, have to imagine that people are listening and thinking like how this team thing is awesome, like it's just amazing. I wish I had that right. I'm fortunate to have that in my podcast.

I've had that my lab, certainly that my podcast team out. I would say these guys go, I go like like it's not just the people at press button and run equipment, take photos like they go. I go like they go.

It's over and i'm fine with that. I actually love that because it's it's yes, it's about the podcast, but and about the information and getting IT out there. But it's as much about the team and working together just like IT was escape warning.

So hopefully i'm Better at podcasting and was a escape and I keep getting broke off as the escape to say and escape and too often. But I want to ask, like in your family life, do you look at that as a team? Like, do you think like, this is my team and they're different and how can we send our jobs? Yeah.

and you ve got a look at every team like that. What are the strength and weaknesses of the team and who's going to be good at what? And how do you put people in positions where they're going to be able to sell? I mean, what is name jim bo? Ah imagine if he had a mentor that was the you gotta a prosecutor, this is your only opportunity.

There's nothing else. And he didn't have the ability take a step back and say, you know what man like? I'm not i'm not gonna good enough, but I really love this industry. So so luckily for him, he figured that out. And you know, you talked about the superpower of being like loving your job.

The one thing I claim to be a superpower is the ability take a step back and to attach, which I guess is going back to your meditation thing, but being able to take a step back and look at your life and say, man, i've been skateboarding longer than that guy, he's Better than me. And i've been scape boarding longer than that other guy, he's Better than me. I'm probably not going to this, probably not the right job for me.

What could I do where I could use my skill set? And obviously, he had some entrepreneur spirit and was able to figure that out. So being able to be a part of a team and IT, this goes to what I was saying earlier about the mob being able to be part of a team, part of the mob, part of the end, but still have the ability take a step back to attach from that and assess what is the best way for this team to move forward.

I mean, you could have this brilliant idea that from now on you're going to make all of your podcast about the molecular structure of whatever, and you know the rest, the team, probably to pull you as I and say, hey, mad, like I know you really care about that and that's awesome. But everyone really wants to hear about this other stuff. So let's tie IT in together.

Let's expand what you the specific thing you want to talk about. So being able to take a step back to touch and see the bigger picture to me is the true superpower of life, of life. And it's it's a lot harder than that sounds.

And you know this goes back to when you start talking about people that are having going through struggles in life, right? And i've described this before, as you know, if i'm looking at you and you're you're in a bad state, right? Your depressed, your sad, you're moping around.

You're not get anything done and i'm looking at you from the outside and and and i'm thinking for me, I see this storm cloud around your head, right? I see this storm cloud around your head and you're in there and all you see, no matter what direction you look, is storm, all you see is darkness. I'm outside.

I'm looking at he man, this guy has got a great education. He's healthy. He's got a good team around him like he's got always things going from. But you in that state, you literally cannot see anything but the darkness of the storm.

And that's what's so scary about when people enter that mode is you can I can look at IT from the outside and be like, Andrew, you just got to move like for feet forward and you're going to be through this thing and yet you're you you might hear me say that you going, no joke. I'm looking ahead. There's nothing but darkness.

So helping people move forward, take action and be able to get that perspective, detach and get outside themselves, get outside their own heads, your time fares that get out your head, get into your body. That's a onder ful way to do IT take action, to do things. But it's it's very it's very scary.

And i'm sure you've had this experience where we are talking to someone that you know and they're bog down in whatever problem IT is, whatever stress they are under and you're looking at him going a it's gonna OK like you can clearly see that whatever there, whatever is bothering them and dragged them now you can clearly see you a lot of time. Is the relationship right? The girl, the guy they dumped and you got a man, that person was a disaster anyways.

You're Better off without them and they cannot compute that they are stuck there or maybe it's the school that they didn't get into or the job that they didn't get and they get so wrapped up in that they can't they can't get out of that storm and it's it's so it's such a helpless feeling to to sit there and tell someone, hey, you, you, you, you just move a little bit towards me and you're gona get out of the storm and it's so much easier said than done and and that's why trying to engage with people and trying to give people that superpower of attatched where they can take a step back and say, you know what, you're right now that that girl SHE wasn't who I really thought he was, I should move on, yes, but easier said than done. And that's one of the bigger chAllenges. I think that that we have his friends and in parents and a teammates is helping people learn to attach, learn to see the bigger picture, learn to see that the the problem that you have, that your whole world is actually not that big of a deal.

And I wrote, i've write a bunch of kids books. And one of the things that triggered me to write kids books is realizing that, you know, one day my daughter came home is my oldest daughter, and SHE came home from school and she's like, he says, i'm stupid. What do you mean your stupid shit? I'm stupid. I'm dumb.

Why do you think I know what whatever grade IT is when you're supposed to know your timetables? I don't know my time's tables. I said, oh, wow, how much have you studied? You can give me the, the, the confused look what what he mean studied and I said, have you studied yet? Have you made flash cards to to learn them? And SHE didn't.

SHE hadn't. SHE thought you should just know them from you. The teacher went over what they? Arn, now you should do like that.

Some other kids in the classes and and so i'm sitting and going, I call, make some flash cards. Ds, and you make flash cards and learn. Les, forty five minutes, and we are.

But what struck me was, to me, I was like, h, no big deal to her. IT was a whole life. And then I got to see that with my other kids.

You know, somebody said something to them in the recess yard, and I got score. That kid, they don't know, don't worry about them. But when you are that their whole world, and that unfortunately doesn't only apply to kids IT applies to adults as well. And they get this problem in their world that seems so insurance able and so massive because that little ecosystem that they're stuck in is their world. And they run into this problem in that, and it's disruptive in that world and they don't know how to get out of IT.

You know, I did a part cast talking about these ecosystems that people get into, right? And there's all these ecosystems, your ecosystem, where we're both a shared ecosystem of podcasting and we could be like all my gosh, you know, legs just came out with a new podcast and it's been the biggest success. And what can I do to catch up with legs and and all of this and I could get really, but you could get really, but we could be bothered by that.

The man, I am a failure. Meanwhile, there's people that don't listen to podcast, there's people that don't even know what a podcast is. And yet it's our whole world.

If we let him be, you're in the academic world. Hey, you go. We are a professor at stanford, which is a big deal in that world that I know people that don't give a rats as they couldn't.

They don't know where stanford is. I get that all they don't know where stanford. It's no big deal in the seal teams. The same thing, somebody has a problem in the seal teams and they think this is the whole world and I blew IT. And and now what they're going to do when you're facing a significant problem and wife a relationship, a problem with a job, you can remember that you're in one ecosystem. And if you step outside of that ecosystem, no one really cares. And you can go moving to a older, totally different ecosystem and and find happiness there, but at least utilized that to get out of that storm cloud that you're in and you're gna find that there's plenty of light out there in the world, move towards that and it's gonna a much Better situation.

Well, in the spirit of authenticity, everything you're saying hits directly home for me. I don't know what people's perceptions of me are. I actually try not to spend too much time thinking about that and just really try and stay in touch with the source.

And I really do believe in this notion that our love of things is what can generate energy. And I try to use action to generate energy. But also I happened also love exercise. So that's an easy one there for me. But I try to stay in that mode. But um to be quite honest, i've spent much of my adult life and probably too much of my teenage life and twenty years do not quite adult writing, twenties at least that I certainly wasn't in chAllenging relationships that .

admittedly .

were chAllenging because of my role in them also, of course, right and each and every time I remember thinking moving on from this is like this insurance able thing, in part because I am a caretaker and I cared. And IT wasn't just about me and a selfish, and he was about wanting to write all the wrongs of that persons passed. Like i've found myself trying to be a time machine for people.

I found myself trying to fix their family lives. I found myself doing all of that and also ignoring all the things I need to focus on in terms of bearing myself and making sure I was showing up correct and on and on. And um there are data in the world of in the form of these people that that know me very, very well that I think would say that in a whole lot more right.

Um the point isn't those specific relationships, but each and every time you know someone would come along and say, like listen, if this isn't good for you, it's not good for them or this is a bad situation or this is serving either of you well. But I was like my topic like this big and that not even so destroy you in the world like sand spec of the world and trying to solve because that's my nation I want to solve, want to solve IT, I want to solve IT. And sometimes things were solved for some period of time and sometimes they weren't.

And I think one thing that just as a confessional, like I will say, um I could really learn the art of detachment. I could really learn to focus on that more if that's the proper language work. I think i'm pretty good at adapting.

I think i'm pretty good at finding good people. I'm certainly love my team. And this and that all feels like natural energy, although a tired work in lab in in the podcast. But I think the the sort of tendency that have as a problem solve is to assume that every problem can be solved. And therefore staying on this problem until IT is solved is the answer.

And um maybe the art of attachment in getting some perspective would help because if I look back, I certainly don't regret the experiences i've had but I wasted for too much time and Frankly, I probably wasted for too much of other people's time trying to solve problems that could not be solved and I think um without going into this in any more detail um and of course um you're not you can send me a book at the end by the way um I think this concessions are free. So I think that being a problem solve is great. Forward center mass is great.

I think learning the systems of the brain and body and understanding psychology and and learning about oneself, know the oracle had a right, know I self in ways that you can maneuver, functioning in your life and career and relationship, is that are great. But I think there's also a downside to being overly fixated. Is like my bodog hostel used to be like chewing on something, chewing us like next thing I know he's chewing on his foot and you know like hey and you'd have like a rip on off his own oot be because that true reflex was just so strong that sometimes he would turn on himself. That's kind of how how IT feels.

Yeah, I wrote a book called leadership, tragedy and tactics. And one of the of the things that I wrote about that book is like understanding what's important, what's not. And this is very similar, what you're talking about, 呃， looking looking at a problem and take a step back and on, well, a is this important or not? And b is this solve board is not.

And see what's the line on getting IT solved and what's the efforts going to take to get this problem solved, and how this is really going to impact my world in my life if I focus on IT. So knowing and understanding when something is important or not is a very good skill. And again, as the skill is directly related to attach detachment, because when you're in that relationship is the other thing I ve told people lately, the solution to your problem is not gonna found in.

The problem is not gonna found in there. You have to get out of the problem so that you can look at, make an assessment, and you can assess how to solve the problem or whether you need to solve the problem or not. I mean, there's a lot of things in my life right now or right, shot my shoulders and go, okay, but is okay? Someone saying this, okay, Roger, that, but Carry on, no factor.

Move on. And then occasionally you go, okay. This is something I need to contend with. This is something I need deal with.

This is something I need to shape, or a adjust, or move, or or solve, to use, to use your word at. The reason I laugh when I say that is because. Problems you have to get in there. But if you take a step back, you can usually say, oh, little adjustment here, a little adjustment there, and that things gna sort itself out. So detachment is a super powerful.

certainly is. And it's certainly one that I need to focus on more. I'm grateful for you bring in that up is this is the the biologists in me, but you know, what is your process for engaging detachment or for disagree ing? Is IT an active process where you go? I'm going to detach from this.

I'm going to put myself in a situation that is pulling on me. There's a gravitational force. And i'm going to, I don't create some.

Imagine in my mind of walking away from IT. Do I physically walk away from IT? Do I outsource IT to somebody else? What what are some tools for detachment?

Yeah, this is one of those situations where you and I had a discussion about the science and the practical application aligned. So my original experience with detachment was, and this is one of those moments where, you know, I said a lot of times, things are just small moments over time, and you make a little justman.

This is one of those moments in my life, and I read about leadership, strategy, tactics, where I recognized, like in a moment, what detachment was and how helpfully I, on an oil rig doing a training mission, my whole put une is in a skirmish line, looking at A A large area of the oil rigg that we're supposed to be clearing. Again, it's not combat. This is in the sixties, is nothing going on, words doing training.

And i'm standing in the german line. And by the way, i'm the Youngest, most junior guy microtv e and i'm standing. They're looking down the side of my weapon and i'm waiting for someone to make a call and tells what to do.

And I wait for five seconds, and I wait for ten seconds, and I wait for twenty seconds. No one saying anything. And we're waiting for a leader in my paton's to make a call to tell us what to do, tell me what to do.

And finally, after like thirty seconds, which seems like an eternity, I can't take IT anymore. And so I take a step, like a, like A, A foot, one foot, step twelve inches. I take a step off the screams line.

I looked to my left. I looked to my right. And what I see is every other guy, my pta, is staring down their weapon, staring down the sight of the weapon, which means their field of view is tiny.

It's like a twenty degree field of view. You're looking down the the scope of your weapon, the side of your weapon, and that's how big your field of view is. I am looking, i'm thinking, oh, there is my photo commander.

He's looking down the scope. The side of his weapon. There is my patoo chief. He's looking down the side of his web. There is my leading pad. After he's looking down the side of his weapon, there's my system of two command. He's looking so everyone in the portal e is looking down the side of their weapon, which means they all have a very narrow field division.

Well, when I take a step back and looked to my left and look to my right, guess what kind of fuel the vision I got? Got a massive one. I can see the whole scene, and I can see exactly what IT is we need to do.

And at that moment, look, as a new guy, you need to keep your mouth shut. You don't say anything. And i'm thinking, well, but no one else to say anything.

So I mister up all the courage I can and I open my mouth and I say, hold left, clear right. Which is that basic taco call? No, no, no. This is not a pattern level genius manuvre. This is a Normal call.

And making a situation that we were in, I say, hold life clear, right? And i'm expecting to get kind of slap told to shut up new guy, but instead everyone just repeats the call, hold life clear right? Hold life clear right.

And they we execute the maneuver and we finish the clearance of this oil rig, and we've get done, we get to the the top of the oil ray, which means we clear the whole singer on the hello decade at the top, and we go through a deeper ef. And now I am expecting, okay, now want to get told, what were you doing? You just need to keep your mouth shut and instead the motor chief goes a, hey, jack, of good call on the sellar duck down there.

And I was kind of like, yeah, that's right. But then I thought to myself, hold on a second. Why, if, on the Youngest, most genre guy in this tune, why was I able to see what we needed to do and make that call? why? Why did that just happen? And then I realized that was because I took, took a step back to use a year term.

I broadens my field of view, which allowed me to think more clearly, because inside of being hyper focused and narrowly focused, I brought my range of vision. I took a breath before I made my car. I had to take my, take a nice breath to speak clearly.

And I realize that taking a step back and detaching, I got to see infinitely more than even the most experiences guys in my pti e. And I started doing IT all the time. And IT, I started doing IT in land warfare.

I started doing IT in urban combat. I started doing IT in all these tactical training scenes, just, just training. This is started doing these train scars. And IT always allowed me to see what we needed to do.

And then I started doing IT, like when I was having conversations with people and having a conversation about tune chief and I can see he's started to turn a little red in the face and what about you about something I said, wait a second, i'm taking to get back looking old. He's get mad right now and he's the pon chief. You you Better just d equate this thing real quick.

And I to a or chief, that sounds good. Let me take a single we look at the plan or whatever. And so I started to do this kinder with my Normal life was to not get wrapped up in my own emotions, not get wrapped up in the gun fight that was happening right in front of my face, not to get wrapped up in the details of what was going on, but instead, take a step back, detach, look around, and then you can make a much, much Better decision.

And it's not it's it's exponential. You if you're looking down the sites, your weapon and you take a step back and you look around, it's exponential. How much more you can see now listen, if you are the only person in a gunfight is going be harder for you to do that because you have got to be focused on whatever shooting at.

But when you have sixteen guys or twenty guys, they're all looking in the same direction. It's very easy to be the guy that goes on to take a step back, look around, make a call. So when you talk about the mechanics, when I teach this to people now, the mechanics of IT take a step back, literally, you are, you know, you and I A meeting.

There's a bunch of people that starts to get heated argument. I will literally push my chair back away from the table. Change my perspective, perspective open why in my field of view, they think like all in in the sylt ams, you don't a you don't want to sound panic on the radio for a couple reasons.

Number one, because when you panic on the radio is is going to cause other people to panic. Number two, if you panic on the radio on, you sound panic, everyone going to make funny you. So we know you get back from the mission of the, yeah, you sound like a baby out there.

So what would I do before I would key up my radio? Take a breath. And so here i'm manually slowing down my breath and broaden my field of view. So if you're in a meeting or you in a, you know, you're at the at the supermarket parking lot and someone starts to yellow, you take a step back, take a breath, Brown your field of view, detached from those emotions that you're happening and make some space. And that's that's how I go through the mechanics of attachment.

Now I can tell you right now, I mean, when you do this all the time, which I kind of do this all the time, I I don't really have to like step back. But when you're starting to be able to trying to do this, absolutely make up. I know here's another like weird little nuances thing. Lift your chain up and put your hands down. Now, this isn't not a combat situation, not not a fight.

But here's a thing, when, when, when I get defensive, what am I going to do and raise my hands up and put my chin down? Let's like a fighting mode so if you and I are have a discussion and i'm starting to get heated and i'm starting to like, oh, he's not listening to me instead of me putting my chin down and and put my hands like up up where I can put him in your face a little bit no, i'm actually to take step back, said, but my chain up IT changes my perspective a little bit more changes. My visual perspective is expected changing the angle of my head, take a step back, put my hands down the map in the defensive.

I actually want to hear what you have to say. And if I start listening to what you have to say and not talking, it's very hard to be detached when you're talking another key component you wanna attach, shut your mouth. So i'm in meetings now.

I in a bunch of different companies i'm running about, I have a bunch. I own a unch of different companies. I'm in a meeting in my companies. I'm not the one that's doing all the talking in.

In fact, i'm doing mostly listening when i'm in task unit, bruiser, my task unit, i'm not sitting there, are giving the entire brief no, i'm let the patch on chip in the portal. E commanders give those briefs and that way i'm detached. I'm listening to what they have to say. I'm more capable of seeing what holds there are in their plans by not moving my mouth, not talking and listening. So those are some of the methodologies that I use, and then I advise people to use in order to effectively start down the pathway of being able to detach in various scenarios.

I love IT. Again, I am saying I love IT because I do love you and thank you. I think it's a wonderful technique we've talked before in your podcasting. Some of my listeners, maybe not all this body case will be familiar with the fact that when we narrow ly focus our gays on one target, a number of things happen. Our visual world becomes constructed, of course, but also that we start slicing time more finally.

And the dopamine system tends to start doing a kind of about anticipation and trying to guide and direct things in that narrow tunnel of view, as when we literally take on panoramic c visions are not nearly moving our head around, although one could badding our field of you are looking at the horizon and especially we were walking. But again, that not kind of getting a broader field of view. We slice time differently.

Things don't feel as imposing on us. This is the the physiological substrate underlying what you you're describing. And I think it's IT goes a step further because in that open larger appetite of visual understanding, there is an open, larger window of cognitive understanding and new option starts to surface, right? I think I think this is a long been fascinated by the fact that this actually i'll tell us a roque k story in two and fifteen I was um I went over to spain to do a mountain ing with wim. Hf o this wasn't as I want to, a podcast.

I don't have any social media, just one over there, because heard this guy and contacted him, somehow arrange a trip for myself, and I went over there and we did some crazy dangerous mount nearing that no business doing, almost ripped my left leg off in a stunt that was organized by others there. They never should have done in any case, one day. Look, and wm is like crowds, ed on the ground next to like a curb in this parking lot before a hike. He's down there around a little stick.

And so what are you doing? He's like, look, and there were ants climbing up this thing, and he's like their mountainous ring, this curb and guys different, right? But then I realized we were about to do the same thing of this big face.

And I thought, wow, like he's able to think at these different scales and see similar aries and that that's pretty, I would have never stopped to look there. And else I still remember IT right, was IT profound? no.

What was that interesting? Yeah, in the sense that things are happening at all scales all the time and we we think we know the scale to pay attention to and we think that that's the one that matters most. And I think it's fair to say that in a gun fight like there is a scale that matters most.

But new options and new perspectives actually come from that broader field view, which is what you're describing. And later that day is interesting because this group going up, some of them were really chAllenged in the, in the, the. And we went back to this example of how the ants would stack on top of one another.

And he used an analogy from that to help people through this climb. And there was a beautiful pool at the top. I said it's said, anyway, I think that these examples um are in fact meaningful, especially the ones that you gave because they don't just relate to a military and you imagine around the dinner table I ve had this kids are there and partners there.

Sometimes it's really nice to sit back and just kind of hear at all and back in at all but often times like new information will surface like you said, you know like all i'm hearing is worries out of this person or they're not even really here. They're all talking about what we're gona do next next time, next time, next time like you we anchor people like hey, like maybe let's focus on what what we're doing here or sometimes people hyper focus on what's happening there and they need to think about something in the future. I love this. I need to practice to attach when, in a number, different domains of my life. One thing that I am realizing after hearing you described the process I really need to do as I need to start taking some time away from my work, maybe even a little Better time parallel of relationship to have get Better perspective on IT because I think the problem solving nature and really makes us my topic really makes .

us new cited yeah that's um you see this a lot I mean, I I get to see this a lot. We do events with companies, businesses, and we go outside somewhere where their detach, their their defective detached from their data business. You pull someone out their business for two days and all of them, they start seeing the solutions.

What they they never see them. They it's lot harder for them to see them when they're in the firefight. You get them out of the firefight.

It's harder for them to see when they're in that acquisition that they're doing, how we going to merge these two cultures, this is going to be impossible. boom. Pom out are IT. Let's talk about two cultures and and let's talk about what possible comes are and all of someone, you get them to take a step back. The the solutions will appear and and IT is true in a gn final.

Listen, if it's a one on one gunfight, even then the ability to take a step back and look around or usual perfect vision, you have to be able to do this is gonna replace its exponential. How much eating grass quake is like a superpower? It's like cheating.

It's like cheating. Was speaking of setstone set stone took over. Uh, he became a tasking and commander, troop commander when we got back from remote.

And so now he's the guy in charge. Now I was running the training and A A couple months into his training, he broke his neck, 嗯， broke his vertebrate in his neck. His spinal court was okay.

So he was, you know, the guy with the big neck brace on, and he couldn't do in the arduous training. And his his seal task unit, which is two p tons, was going through their land war fair training. And he couldn't do IT.

He couldn't Carry a rocks that I couldn't Carry a machine gun, he couldn't do. So I said, hey, i'm coming out. Let's go out and you can observe your guys and see how are doing.

And so there we are. We're out the desert. His his troop is going through field training, actually full mission profile. So it's like a big fake Operation. There's a fake target.

There's fake bad guys were using these laser, these high speed laser guns to shoot, and we're kind of standing on this little burn. And at a certain point in the Operation, his whole task unit forty guys gets pinned down in this little ravine. And so worth kind of standing in the ravine with these guys and no one's making any decisions.

And the enemy with these laser guns are starting to maneuvre, starting your killing, guys, because these later guns, you can die and safe. Like, hits me on the army. I can.

I tell what to do. And I like, no, let them figured out. So another thirty seconds past, another guy was killed with laser. He gets me a good bro.

Let me, let me say something to me and I was like, let them figured out in other metics by two more guys are now dead, just laser dead, but they're dead and he hits me again and he's like, pro, let me tell and I go r go at home and so he just crochet down next guys. And among the could peel right and which is, again, it's just a fundamental basic call and the guy shouts IT out peel right. And they start peel right in another minute later they're all out of the killzone and everything's okay.

And then sf looks at me. He goes, man, this is so easy way up here. And I said, bro, look at where we are.

We are in the ravine with the guys. We're now we're on a knee and the guys are laying down, but it's not this. We heard on some elevated position and I said, hey, it's not that we're in an elevated position.

It's just that we're attached looking around and he goes, oh my god and I said, hey, remember when you and I went through the training and he goes, yeah and I go, this is what I was like for me all the time. I was constantly just looking around. So that's why IT seems like a magic power, right? It's like a superpower because, you know, sets down there with this gun and shoot and i'm like, hey, bro, move your guys over to that.

Go that ridge on right? They're such security problem. And he, how did how did jaco see that? Jaco must be a taczew us.

No, i'm not a taconic us. I'm just taking a step back and looking around and this and like you just said, IT applies to everything that we do. If you are having a conversation with your significant other and you start to see that they're getting frustrated about something.

Now look, if you're in the conversation. One hundred percent. You're gone to get frustrated too.

You're going to get frustrated there. frustrated. Next thing you know, you ve got a, you've got an emotional argument.

中文 know 啊 whether if you take and take us mental step back and see they waited。 What are they frustrated right now? Oh, because i'm trying to solve their problem.

And really, what they are looking to do is vent. Okay, got IT let him vent OK cool. That sounds horrible.

You know, what do you think you're gonna and set the, well, that's the problem. Here's what you should. People are always looking for that.

So yeah this this thing this ability is and it's something that can absolutely be trained and that's what's cool about IT can absolutely be trained. It's not a natural gift. It's some people we Better at IT than others, but it's something that you can train.

And I used to see guys developed and I see people develop. And now in the business world, where they will report back to me, you know all, we had a meeting with the union today, and the union started escalating what they wanted to do. And I just took I detached, and we ended up ds creating, and now we got a solution.

So this is an absolute skills set that can that can be learned. And that's what that's what makes IT especially nice because there's some people look, if you're very articular born, very some people are born more articulate than other people. Some people are born with an ability to simplify things more than others.

And you can train, you know, you can become more articulate, you can become, you can t learn to simplify things more. And some people can be naturally good at detaching, but but everyone can get Better at IT. And that's a beautiful .

thing is a beautiful thing. And I highly incentivized to do this. I think there are areas of my life they're going really well that I also want to apply IT there.

I think that i've tended to rely on people close to me as a way to access this detached ment. I will be very direct and saying that, you know, I am not the leader of my podcast. There is a leader.

IT is not me. I'm part of the team but IT is not me and I often rely on his input um and sometimes that input is so list. Sometimes it's not one place, for instance, where you see people getting really my topic is on social media right and and i've experienced this um you i'd love to say that always non reactive.

And I think in general, I take the stand set that I have filters. So I have I have filters. I know why i'm there right? I'm interested in being a teacher and a giver and informing people and about the beauty and utility of biology.

That's why I say it's not a mission statement is it's a fact that's what I care about, anything that doesn't fit through that filter I really have any business in. But occasionally I like, you know, make a joe course. So but occasionally something comes through you and I find myself way a second.

I need get sucked into that tunnel. And sometimes it's observing other people in tunnels and when you're not in the tunnel is so obvious. So what's happening right in watching, in some cases, people just dragging their lives, in some cases thinking their entire careers.

I mean, the form chair of psychiatry, columbia university in new york, made an absolutely foolish, truly insensitive, toneless inappropriate tweet. That, to my opinion, and I think was the opinion of all the people that fired him from his job. This person was at the apex of his career, lost his job for saying something terrible, and in retrospect was like, said something like, I don't know what I was thinking, you know and so this guys a psychiatrist.

So he he lives in the in the study, in the even of the mind. He was just goes to show that everyone, I think, is suspected to be imposed LED into these tunnels. And fortunately, everyone is suspected to learning to teach themselves how to reach themselves out of IT.

So I love this idea of a teaching skill. I'm certains going to practice IT in one on one and in group situations and and in a variety of situations. I I think that the tunnel is has A A gravitational pull.

There's I going to lure to that tunnel. And I always just go right back to the newer chemistry. I think there's something about solving a problem inside of a tunnel like an animal on a chase, you know.

But at some point, you know that animal could get picked off by a, you know, run over by a truck because I was didn't have enough situation awareness. I'm deafening in the practices through opening the gays, you and and broader gays. And I think I also do for A A couple days off from things to just walk and think about work on these retreats.

Do people work on work? Are they just dare to do other things? And that's where the idea surface.

We'll do a little bit. So we'll do some stuff that has focused on work, but then we will pull out and do things that are completely unrelated to work to for that very reason, whether we do something physical, whether we do something some kind of a mental exercise, but we do things that are completely unrelated to their work and and take those breaks in order for them to free their mind. And you know what bothers you about social media? This is when you say, like, there's some things that kind like make you mad I mean.

not me but you know could be no of course of course like i'm a human you know little things, little things prevent it's not the things that are obviously actually not direct critique of me. It's it's when people exploit misunderstandings to try and create a greater misunderstanding that doesn't exist. That's what gets me because to a scientist that's like the most irritating thing.

I don't know what the energy would be in the seal teams, but it's like someone like hy jacking something that like they didn't mean that. But then they kind of they distort the argument. The word gas lighting get thrown around a lot.

Now lot of people actually think that anytime someone states a boundary like, no, I don't believe that that that that's gasoline trust me, the psychiatrist who are all professionally and tell me that is not gas lying. Guess that this is a very particular thing where you're trying to alter someone's reality in a very active, almost like sociopathic way. Um so I just want that little editor realizing right there.

What bothers me is when people hi jack know sometimes someone in in an argument is in a sophisticated with their language to somebody else, someone will highjacked that lack of sophistication and trying to flip them on their back. That sort of thing really gets under my skin because I feel that creates unnecessary divide. There are few other things, but you, I, I always joke in my lab and I say, you know, have three thousand peas, but I also have like three thousand flaws to match each one of us peace.

So yeah, whenever i'm in, this is not just social media, but it's just life.

You know, when somebody says something about me or to me that I don't like, what I realized years ago is like the reason I don't like this because there's some truth and what they're saying and the best thing to do is to say either treat yourself, you're by yourself or to them is to say, yeah, yeah, yeah yes you're right I I am kind of a co head sometimes or yeah you're right I sometimes do jump to conclusions or yeah, yeah you're right I was completely wrong about that and that is just so much more liberated, liberating and healthy then saying, you don't know what you're talking about or no, I don't it's just going into that defensive mode and and trying to close your mind instead of opening your mind up to listen what somebody else has to say and say ah that's a good point. Your spot on with that one. Next question, next comment.

let's go. Let's go. One thing I appreciate about you on social media as the the limited number of words in each of your responses that it's a great thing and forcing you to be efficient and size actually is a huge advantage. IT also forces you to be um precise, at least about category, right? I think there there's something to be said for that.

Well, there's a good example. So I was on social on twitter the other days since twitter is getting getting of getting a lot of getting a lot of, uh, traction right now.

was a lot of may have gone on. And somebody asked me.

somebody said, I am going to book camp soon. What vise you and for me and I wrote back, enjoy boom. And like you said, I mean, it's twitter.

I'm responded to bunch of people and then somebody else timed in and said, you know, might as well not even answer joko that's not helping this guy at all. And look, look, look at your face for those who get to watch in your face. Just got a little bit mad, right? You got a little bit defensive for me.

yeah. I well that I think that's my nature. I don't like seeing other people sort of attacked. I think that is my nature.

Had a split second enough. Who else? This guy? And then I said, you know what? He's right.

And then I try IT again that say sorry 吗？ You're right. What I should have said was, hey, read the book. Leadership strategy and tactics is a good book for someone that is going to be in an environment that's gonna chAllenging.

And we're going to be face with leadership and enjoy book camp because if your mindset is this is socks and this is terrible, you're it's going to be terrible and it's onna suck and if you go with the mindset of, hey, this is a cool experience and I should enjoy IT, you're going to have a much Better time. That's my full answer. I am starting to you and it's perfectly fine like that.

I was right to critique me, and he was right in saying that. And there was a bunch, what's funny? A bunch of other people came, remind the offense, this guy, that's really great.

And so so, but my point is, instead of me getting defensive and crazy and letting you try me crazy, open my mind a little bit, listen what they have to say, except that there's gotta be some level of truth in IT. And there was, I gave a guy a very, very touch response, and I could have expanded on IT more. And I did no big deal. Good times night .

a few minutes ago, thinking myself, I wonder where your mind is at, like in the few moments before you fall asleep. Like are you able to make yourself go mind blank um pretty easily? It's something i've been practicing more because I tend to again, room I like to drill in the problems.

Obviously yesterday did a solo episode of which. When we do, those are usually anywhere from five to twenty hours of prep. And then the recordings, I won't say how long they take, but but I love going into the tunnel, right? The tunnel is like, that's where the juices for me and finding the structure. And I have the benefit of amazing producer, how we work through IT.

And but I kind of like came out of singing and then went home, couldn't eat, was I don't want dinner and then I was explaining a call I had with a colleague the other day yeah my my partnership, my girlfriend, he was just like, you know, like, okay, I am going to sleep and I was like up and texting I think, right, no town I that mean like, i'm like costello, like chewing on the stick and like they join into my pie. I need, I need sleep. I need to go to sleep.

So I think I have a bit of a harder time is engaging really. And this is why I never touch cocaine, or indeed my because I think that some of us have A A love of the dopamine e circuitry that I always sense if I were to have tried drugs like that, that they might have been the um the thing that would like hit mineral circuits just right you somebody thought about alcohol that way. I read books by alcohol looks like the book dry.

And two other ritual talks about this, that he drank alcohol for the first time in college. That was like this, a licker that filled his body that made him feel right for the first time. Not how I feel after a couple of doing, because I feel a little relax, but I can do without IT. But this drilling into something as really that's my I guess maybe that's my I don't think is the superpower, but I have some some strength there. But I think it's also the thing that cut that can cut on the other yeah.

when you started off this conversation early, you talked about you're getting up in the morning and do you just get up and you have this about to go down the path of like it's at nights when i'm trying to go to sleep and I have some random fought about something that that can be a hard I have a visual thing that's going on IT seems like i'm on a roller coast and i'm going in like a new idea comes and i'm just like on this awesome ride and I guess not going to stop and I can I don't know how to stop that.

No, no. I mean, I think IT IT goes with people who are very driven and and like to master different crafts. I have a colleague, his name is called that.

These a bioengineer as five children, and he's a psychiatrist, is like, incredible. These people who does a time very likely will win the nobel Price is amazing. Scientists is amazing guy.

And he does this practice that he does just not a meditation, which he sits for an hour late at night after kids have gone to sleep. And he forces themselves, f forces themselves to think in complete sentences with punch ation about some problem. I tried doing that for about five minutes and and I fell. But it's something that he's cultivated in itself which helped him in his career, right? I don't think certainly not something I recommended.

If I did that at one or two in the morning, I think that will be bad for my sleep because falling asleep bache requires drifting into these kind of liminal states so on in the reasons why i'm a big proponent of things like non sleeve deep breath or these yoga eda practices which you're basic body scans where we are trying to learn to detach from the sensory world um and they're very effective IT. Certainly for me they've been very effective at teaching me to turn off thinking, which is an interesting notion is all right. But I like the idea of detached ment by stepping back and getting perspective.

My father is much Better at that. He's a very calm guy in the world of confrontation. I always knew when I was a kid because he would blame, which you meant like someone was going to happen, like I was going to get IT and now, but i've always know he can control his his responses, his behavior.

Others of us in the family decide from new jersey, we're more like go to log. So I don't know this raises a question, and I think it's one that I and several other people I talk to an anticipation as podcasts we're asking. I think one reason why people are drawn to people who have been in the seal teams and you in particular, or that I think everybody, not just males, but females too.

I think everybody that wants to know like their calibration point on their level of toughness. I think people wonder, you know, I think when people talk about budget and all that, I think a lot of people wonder, would I make IT through, right? I've certainly wondered IT.

I ve been spent hours on IT. I went my path. I'm happy for the path I went.

Um but I think people wonder, like, do I have this thing that supposedly budd selects for? And if I don't like how tough M I or not tough M I, I think that we all can look at other people's physically. And i'm not somebody that does a lot of this.

I know if some people are really obsessed by this, like all that person has like an eight pack with like veins on there, like I don't understand that that's not me, but I understand some people do that even to the point of psychology. But I think most people wonder how resilient am I and when they can look to experiences that they have survived and say, I made IT through facility or not. But is there a way that, like we can I certainly that we can train IT by doing hard things, cold showers, assigning or like small examples of those.

But do you think it's an even an important question to ask? And if IT is, you know, how does one go about thinking like where where like how brain an am I should we put ourself into situations of discomfort just to test that? Because I will say I think a lot of people look to seal teams and team guys in particular as kind a calibration point of like, okay, they know how to do hard things that they were selected for the ability to Carry logs and get in a cold water over and over and roll in the sand and go without sleep for a week or so, like but that's probably not what they were doing when they were on deployment. Is clearly a pressure test for something else.

He had a strange, strange thing, the basic underwater demolition seal training and quite Frankly going and getting wet and cold and being miserable is is actually nothing um compared to like being on deployment ment.

And a good example that I used to compare this to is um when I was unemployment in two thousand six in remote, there was a as you as you are driving off base to go to the city, to go into the city and conduct Operations as you drove out of the compound on your right was this area that was called the vehicle graveyard and the vehicle graveyard was exactly what that sounds like IT was probably seventy five or one hundred vehicles that were blown up, destroyed, burned um in various twisted conditions that have been dragged back through the city and put into this vehicle graveyard and as you drove by that vehicle graveyard, you know without question that every one of those twist ted vehicles represented one, two, three, four, five american casualties. Wounded, horribly wounded, killed and there you are in a vehicle about to roll out into that city where be what you're looking at can easily be you in the next three minutes. And you're going to do that today.

You're going to that tomorrow. You do that the next day and the day after that, the day after that. That compared to and by the way, this isn't just seals that are doing that.

This is ines. This is the army guys that over there this is what everyone is doing and they do IT. They do IT.

Um you I talked about markey is one of my guys. First you killed in iraq and he was the lead. Terry garner in the lead home.

Vee, and like in vietnam, if you were the point man of vietnam, you are on to an informal patrol. You are the point of you. I'm you at risk, Bobby.

Traps ambush. So they rotated you out. Well, you enough to stay up there all all the time. You do an hour up of the last point. Men, they get someone else up there.

And that guy, the lead turd garner in the in a hub e column of four, five or six vehicles you hit and I, E, D, that's the vehicle is can hit, right? If you had to go to an ambush, that's the guy that's going to get hit. The guy is standing up in a fifty caliber turn.

That's the guy that's gonna die and mark was, you know he's a new guy, so he's an at least d fifty cow and he never asked to get rotated out. And now he he's very like to say, very, he was extremely charismatic, funny, gregarious, a comedian. And we got all kinds of stories about mark, but one of them, you were in vague, and we're all gambling.

And like, I come down from my hotel room and like I see marker across the across the his plane, black jack, and know he sees me good, I sir, whether the new cat lax coming out, like he's just lighten up, everybody, just having a fantastic time. But all night, you know, he's getting ready to roll out and if I wasn't going out with the bottles, I would let go out. You like see the guys off in my hand salute as they're leaving and i'm like how you feeling the mark, how you do a market.

You good to go and he's like feeling lucky, sir. You know, like that was his attitude and he's a guy is gone to drive by that vehicle graveyard, drive right down that city and he's going to do the next day and the day after the day after that. So and and like I said, that's what the army guys are doing, that's what the marine core guys are doing.

They're doing IT. And so as much as the mythology around basic seal training goes um to me that that that experiencing combat and what guys do is infinitely harger and infinite more important. Now all that being said, basic seal training is, is, is the is a very strange laboratory for human beings.

IT is a very strange laboratory for human beings. And it's a the IT is is is kind of crazy the way IT works. It's very it's it's obviously extremely difficult. But there's no like you I wouldn't put money.

You could put odds on somebody making IT through, you know like, hey, that guy seems like something be good to go, but I wouldn't put a bunch of money on IT, right? And I wouldn't take like a hundred percent. I would never take a hundred percent back on anybody because there's no one that's a one hundred percent going to make IT through that training.

And there's there's just brand dom y or some people say it's well because you're why there's people that make IT through your training because their x girlfriend said they couldn't make IT. There are some other guy that makes IT through because they promised god that they would make IT. There are some other guy that made IT through because you know there are dad said that there's like everyone of these examples you can come up with and and it's good enough for somewhere random dude to make IT through.

And IT doesn't matter what your pedigree is, doesn't matter where you're from. There's guys from iwa. There's guys from florida. There's guys from whereever that make IT. And as guys my and guys from florida, guys from wherever they don't make IT, guys from farms, guys from silver spoon in their mouth and you just can't predicted.

And I mean, he has to have something to do with the fact that how bad you actually want to do IT, that's it's it's a strange thing. And I wouldn't you know I wouldn't try and you know, I was in the world if I didn't do that training, I wouldn't be trying to figure out if I could make her not cause you don't know, you don't know. The very strange thing and it's and it's so uh. Mythical almost right now, right it's mythical that how hard that is and this is not too many people make IT through .

men fifteen percent yeah yeah yeah ah from all the fox i've talked to where there gone through the instructors there. So we both know seeing that, that fifteen percent number is unlikely to change as long as they keep the the process the same.

That just seems about fifteen percent people seem to have something in them that cannot perhaps grow during that training, but that IT is being identified and selected for, rather than somehow being built up across at least that face at the early phases of training. And then at some point they build on that capacity. And you know, this gets to this really somewhat controversial issue, Frankly, like our people wired differently.

And listen, I started off in neural development, and i'll tell you that there are some universal properties of neural development in all surviving humans like that. You're going to breathe without having to think about IT. Your hearts going to be without having to think about IT.

But beyond that, there's a lot of variation in natural levels of dopamine and serotonin. There's nature plays a powerful role and nurture. And what's interesting though, as we can always predict from parents, what nature is gonna.

Recently, we had one on the podcast excited for you to listen to you if if a perhaps you will. If I send IT to as that you talks about inheritable acquired traits, you don't expect that because you work out that your grandkids will be more moscow and have Better endurance. But there is actually some evidence that, that may be the case.

And you know, how could that be? We ve got two kinds of cells in your body IT. Turns out you have what to call systematic cells, which you are in the germ cells, which you, your perm and your wife's eggs.

Well, why won't the D N A of the sperm cells in the egg cells be modified by experience if all the other cells are IT? Turns out there is some evidence that maybe it's not the DNA, but that the R N A R. Think about that.

That means that whether and we known this, the people that have been in a famine several generations later, their implications for blood sugar regulation in their great Green hit. So the idea that experience an acquired traits can change us is actually has some validate and, you know, and and IT. And this gets into really complicated.

The things could be with all, this is like the giraffe that had to like crane its neck and then gave birth. The longer next year haves like, well, not exactly, but also not entirely untrue either. So I love the idea of that there are inherited traits, and that there are that nature, and nature play a role, but that hard work may actually transmit across generations.

Yeah, those in seal training, you know, you have kids that come through that they call legacies, which means that they have a dad, I think dad, brother, whatever. And they do have a Better chance of making IT. But it's not a guarantee chance at all. And you know my personal bedding is like I think a legacy kid would have a Better chance of making IT just due to a fay's giving dinner that you're gonna to go through for the rest of your life with your family and if you're even invited, which you might be on your own. Um but yeah so there's maybe there's something to that as well, but I think that's just more the the pressure that someone must feel like, hey, there is no way i'm going to be allowed back in my home if I don't make up through this training so I can have to just go head and suck IT up but not everyone makes IT and um it's it's a bummer and that when that does occur well for people who are .

not thinking about going through seal trainer, who miss the opportunity or who are not interested in that for whatever reason, do you think there's value to doing things each day that sucks a little bit or from time time doing something that you know puts one into a state of deliberate .

hundred percent I mean, in one hundred percent, I mean, even in order to improve yourself, you got A A impose some disciple yourself, right? If if you want to get stronger, you've got to do things that require strength. If you want to be tougher, you're gotta do things that require you to be tougher. I think that's pretty straight.

D does that mean doing things that are not pleasurable? So um you have done some long podcast and a few weeks ago I did a series, were doing a series with andy galpin all about exe and exercise science. And we did six podcast in that most i've have done, which you may doing four or five next week.

Not so bad. But I loved every second of IT and I love every second of podcasting. And so IT didn't suck. But IT built up a greater capacity. I guess i'm asking specifically about things that really feel like a splinter.

Is there any value to that? Because I have to say there some people, I know some of them are former team, the r team guys, former. They were out there out of the teams now, but their team guys forever, who seem to not be rattled by little things.

Those guys in particular, they don't seem to be rattle by little things. And then I know people that you know the they get the wrong sized coffee to coffee shop p and then they dissolve into a puddle of tears, right? So there does seem to be something to this whole like mental resilience ts thing and flexibility thing.

Um and I I try to do something that's uncomfortable um to me about once a week, so they really don't like IT doesn't matter what that is. But I try to do something that's kind like unpleasant, or do something in a way that, I guess, the example we getting into the cold water, the first in the morning and making that from under the blankets is a rough one for me. But then he gets easier. And then you wondered, is IT still serving the purpose that it's building me up? So should people seek truly like bad experiences, provided that they're done in a safe way?

Yeah, yeah. I think that you're gonna just like you would develop your legs by doing squats and you would develop your back by doing phillipses. I think you would develop your resiliency by doing repetitions of things that require you to be tougher.

that actually so, okay, good. So and the reason I ask this is because I think a lot of people, you think, well, I work out every day, but I, but then you prove them, although there like, but I love exercise. And then well, then that doesn't quite qualify as something that makes you tougher, right? Or they think all the last reps of a set are really tough.

But if you love hitting failure on a sex because that's kind of what I seek in the gym. M, I love that aspect of the training that's actually where I know i'm getting Better in no longer services resilience training, in merger services training. Um in case I think that the point is clear and I appreciate your answer, I have to ask about something like this is gonna m like a total divergence but it's not which is animals because first of all, there are a love of mine in terms of understanding the animal kingdom in placing humans into the animal kingdom.

Second, while I know you're a hunter um and also I know you own dogs and the question I have is do you ever look at people or did you ever work in teams of of guys when you were on active duty? I have see that the differences you know you mention before, this persons really get a problem, problems all in sons, a little bit more creative. Do you ever wonder whether that people of, in body, different kind of animal archetypes, as I do well.

that that thing where people say that dogs or owners look like their dogs, dogs look like their owners, I think that i've seen all kinds of they go on the internet and find a bunch of examples of dogs that look like their owners and owners that look like their dogs. So I think that's true. And I think, you know, my dogs are awesome .

and tell me about your dog dog .

my dog is a german shepherd. His name is older and he's an awesome dog you know like um and he's he's got a personality but he got an interesting personality. So like he doesn't like to.

Like addle, right? Like my kids who will be like we here and like to cattle. No, even you know, when we go to back at night, he goes to you four feet away from the foot of my bed, even if I was like, hey, jump up.

I have told him, jump up in here. You know, we wanted pet you he'll jump up in there. And he just like, kind of goes in that low crowd position and then sort of weights until I say freedom. And then he goes back down.

He goes four feet to away from the four of the bed and sir, because he's that's his that's his personality is to protect and set security and do his job and and that's what he's like and so you know you've got other dogs that are you know they they they're not good. There are a totally different mindset. So yeah, dogs have definite personalities and and look, I also have, uh, it's not all genetic so two of my friends, I got dogs that were brothers, what they called dogo yeah.

are hard to get in the U. S. There not, and they might not even be legal in the united states. So don't tell me who these people are. Not that I care, but i'm like people they are.

Yeah, but these two guys and those two guys had different person alist. One guy is a very happy, go lucky, like to smoke pot, likes to hang out very, just a chill kind of playful guy. The other guy is not, is the opposite in every category.

So and they both got these dogs. And you afford, afford like a year, the dog that was owned by the playful guy, his dog was just a big puppy licking and, you know, just wag in the tail. The other dog, you had to keep IT in a cage or IT would merger everything in sight.

And and these dogs were brothers from the same litter, and they were completely opposite. And so I think he has more a lot more to do with with nurture then that does to do with nature. But that being said, you know, when you look at, when you look at malls, I mean, males have a personality that is a very distinct compared to a german shepherd.

Now look, there's outlying mouse, there's outlying german shepard, there's outlying what you know, you name whatever kind of golden retriever, whatever dog is known for being more playful like you, you get around a mouse, mouse or mouse or mouse. And they're that way. If you been .

around males before.

oh, the belgium .

yeah a few of them. My neighbor has one and that thing is not terribly friendly, but it's it's a security dogs. I don't expected to be yeah there. I know that they use them for work in the teams and i've heard that you have to keep a close eye on your relationship with them because if you get lacks about IT, you'll bite you.

That the first time I saw one, um we were doing like A A drill with using dogs for the first time minute one of the team guy dog handlers came out and so we hit this target building and you know they kind of prejudice as I hey, you get this target building and this guy is going to be a runner square and and so the we pull up in the home these assault team jumps out i'm kind of stay in external see it's gonna en so the square goes running off and the dog hand learn like whatever tracks his dog on this guy and then releases IT gives him whatever commands, whatever the commands are that thing is like totally prime like unlike anything you've ver seen your life IT is just prime it's tracking that guy he hits that release on that leash and that thing takes off at a thousand miles hour IT jumps like i'm not kidding, fifteen feet maybe ten feet in the air away and you just jumps onto this due the dude goes down IT was freaking awesome i've seen some videos of those melon was .

I guess I for forgiving because before I don't know you are reference about mouse those dies like running up tree jump over little rivers it's crazy incredibly powerful and animals yeah well, the idea that people you know that they mimic their owners has me a little concern is my last dog had to put him down as my bulldog costa is bulldog nasif. I got him because I went to pick out a puppy basically.

And there were eight of these bulldogs, all of them were running around. And then there's one in the background, just eating out of all of their balls was like, I want that one big, big dog. Biggest one of the litter ladies creature, not just dog, but ladies creature that ever existed.

But if you need to activate, he would. He was just very efficient with his energy. And, you know, I don't think I have a bulldog personality, and that's why I got him.

So you going to baLance me out. No, never retrieved, never did anything stall and destroyed every toy, every dog. Mark and Sandy ago, who's kind of famous there, know I had to bring five dollar bills to pay people for all the balls and things you would destroy.

So 因为 my apologies told the dog others not really， I am miss him. Did you train your dog or did something else I did? And was he trained to be a security dog or a kind of family dog?

Is kind of a mixture yeah I mean the true working dogs um unless you unless you have the time and effort put into him or you buy him that way um you you don't like you don't want one of those dogs that I would just describe him in your house. They're not for a house um unless there's like there's that level my dogs not that level. Um he's awesome.

Did you apply some of the same principles that you use in, uh, leadership of humans with your dog?

Yeah there are a lot of similar principles but there's also you know there there's some differences. There's like their pack animals, right and they respond to, you know the the pack leader he is funny, you know my my dog obeys me as if it's the command of god and my wife. He's kind of like, maybe i'll do what you say so they pick up on that kind of stuff.

Dogs are very intuitive. I love this idea that I was told early on that they can feel your emotions.

I think they actually can sense how we feel, not just by the intention of our voice, but I hope someday someone will figure out in a non of this way, because unlike the idea of people doing experiments on dogs in invasive way, like what they're picking up on, like, for instance, this, we know that sharks are paying attention to the amount of activity in the lateral line. A fish, a fish, have these, these stretches of neurons. They call the the latter.

And that allows them to school and know the distance to different things. And we will steer around coral. They feel proximity like a tura court, and they can even recognize specific lateral line signatures. So be like you and marky walking out through the dark, but maybe people shift around and you're like you don't have to look at that, mark.

You kind of learn him into like a fish can do that sharks can sense whether not the latter line is is a viBrant, but firing at a particular frequency to know, or that fish is like a little bit slower than the rest. I mean, hunting animals, just they developed these incredible senses, and I think humans have some of these kind of senses in more rudimentary way. We're just not forced to use them unless, of course, you know, you are become hunter of animals or a hunter of humans.

And you tap into these neural circuits that are very primitive and hardwired, and everybody, but of course, they're hone in, in, in warriors. I could spire off into animal biology in ways that truly would take us twenty six hours. I don't want to do that.

Almost hasn't to ask this question, but i'm gonna do IT anyway, many times online you are asked whether or not you will run for office and I want to say that I think it's a true compliment. I don't think people are asking just to kind of entertain themselves. I think that um this country certainly and a lot of the world is desperate for certain kinds of leaders and people that have experiences in high risk ce chaotic situations.

And i've shown process that leadership in multiple domains and you are certainly one of those individuals um and so they ask for that reason, among others and i've heard you give your answer. You can repeat IT again here. But as a more broad theme that I think people are interested in, do you think it's an important criteria or IT would be great to see people in positions of leadership who had wartime experience. And you think that some of the shifts that we've seen in terms of patterns of leadership over the last less test bank real abroad so that this isn't ever late to any particular person or stretch of history. But over the last, let's just say, twenty five years reflect the fact we haven't seen a lot of that, at least at the top tears of leadership.

Yeah, I think IT would be excEllent if people, if the president had military experience, for sure, I think that then they understand the with the way the military works Better. They understand that each civilians that control the military because a lot of times people at the civilians don't understand that the civilians controlled the military. Um and I think that you do get to appreciate what war actually is and what the cost are.

I think that um I i've seen in the same vein of people asking me to run for political office. I've heard you seen comment saying that's what we need another M A war monger in in office and i've responded a few of those. I think there there's any if there's in a group of people that don't want war, it's people you've seen IT people that understand what the what the sacrifices are.

And I think that I think that being in the military, people understand that Better. So yeah, I think could be a great qualification. I don't think it's Mandatory.

I mean, clearly it's not we fed a bunch of presidents that haven't ever served anything really. We have a bunch presence that haven't ever served anything about themselves. Um so yeah, hopefully we will get some more people that have some experience in the military. Some combat experience would be especially nice and that will be good in my opinion.

Well, i'm certainly not want to tell people what to do and i'm certainly not going to tell you what to do. But should you ever choose to run, I would certainly um be very enthusiastic about that and and I would just say that um with that stated, I hope people do here what you just said. I share that sentiment um people who have LED others besides to themselves I think is is the key statement there.

Yeah I i'd look I just I I friends are our politicians and I really appreciate what they're doing. And IT looks miserable to me. I don't like I don't like what I good for them.

I am happy that there they are trying to make a difference um and and I guess this is me being selfish of me looked that I do not think I could stomach that. And I also think that you know right now i'm you know i'm trying to help out like for instance, you do we have obviously got the leadership consulting in that on front. We trying to help businesses grow.

I've got origin USA. We're bringing manufacturing back to america. We've got hundred and four hundred and four hundred and fifty employees right now that are here in amErica working and growing that business.

Um obviously, the supplements. So everything that i'm doing here right now is to try and move the needle with with amErica bringing manufacturing back, helping the economy as much as I can right now. So that's that's kind of what i'm doing right now.

And you know my standard answer, which you eluted to as if things got bad enough, you know, then I would, I would do what I had to do. But I don't think people appreciate my level of bad. I'm talk in real pet.

So it's not there yet. And hopefully i'd never will get there. D rather surf and hang out of my friends and and hang out of my family, then do that.

And hopefully amErica can can find some level of baLance. You know, I think that's the problem that we're having right now. And a lot of these things that you talked about, specifically thing you talk about, our social media is not very good for political baLance.

It's it's actually horrible for political baLance. And a lot of IT has to do with just the way that those conversations are had. A lot has to do with the eagle as well because I don't ever wanted admit that i'm wrong about anything.

And if if I can find something that I think you might be wrong about, it's so satisfying to my ego to just call you out on that thing and attack you. And I think that's what a lot of people are doing right now. Now that being said, also, I also usually say this as well.

I traveled around the country all the time. I work with companies of all sizes, work with people in every different industry. And they're not they're not sitting around arguing with each other about what the the political scenery they're talking about.

Hey, how can we grow business? How can we take care of our workers? How can we take care of our clients? How can we take customer? That's what people are focused on. And when you jump on social media e, you can get sucked into the political scene very easily. And that being said, also, we do have to pay attention because you, you know, we as citizens have to make sure that that amErica stays on the on the correct path within the guard rails of what this country is based on so would you have to pay attention um but I will be doing my part as a civilian until there's total mayhem and chaos in the streets then i'll probably just be a benevolent dictator that takes over should be an interesting one .

but hey you you would be the man to lead under any conditions. But thank you for stating your threshold. Certainly you learn the right to make whatever decision is that you feels right for you.

And I want to say that I agree. I feel like we are a country that still includes a ton of generators and a ton of projectors that are interested in projecting the good and growing the good. I do believe both those finot pes are important. I also wanted to say thank you for being a generator of so much useful knowledge in science. We have a saying, which is, you know, somebody is an end of one.

This is a rare thing to hear about oneself or to hear about somebody, because what IT means is that somebody is in a category in which pretty much everything that they do and they say matters and serves a purpose, which is a useful and important building purpose. And I will look at you and tell you that you are an end of one. You certainly would meet that criteria under a any conditions.

And it's evident in the many companies that you're running, in the leadership that you're doing and also in your online presence. I mean, that's how I initially came to learn about you. I'm now fortunate to have two lengthy conversations with you in a few interspersed as well.

And and I think of myself as a reasonable to perhaps good of observer of like how people behave in different domains and every time you post or every time you speak or every time you you go on a podcast or host a podcast, it's clear that not only you you prepared and not only you promising IT with a spirit of um a serious ness to that deserves, but sometimes also lighters that that deserves, but that there is always an element of give and that you're trying to encourage people to do Better for themselves. So as somebody who's greatly benefit from the knowledge that you've put out there from the very first temper sin joo gan episodes to your own podcast, I want to extend a personal thanks. I also want to extend great thanks.

We're coming on here today talking to a geek scientists who, but who also happened to be a fellow punk, roker, because that spirit and the heart that's behind IT. And I think some people think it's all about your noise and chaos. It's actually about being really true to to yourself.

That's how I think about the pink experience is really about being true to yourself and realizing the thing that you like that might be quite different is actually if that's you, you have to live in that in that vain and and stick with IT certainly served me well and that sounds like IT served you well but most I just wanted extend an enormous thank you um you know as a civilian thank you for the worth you did in the military but also teaching people about the military. I think one of people don't realize what it's about at any level. And learning about your experience there and what you've observed bringing other people experiences from the military more broadly is super important.

And sharing this and being able to entertain some of my scientific ref. So thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

Well, I appreciate that I can. It's kind of weird you say all this nice things to me. I definitely don't deserve him. I kind of a regular do that that just kind of showed up, I guess at the right time and um and told some stories about some guys that were true heroes and just um uh trying to share my perspective. But it's not just my perspective.

You know i'm i'm talking about stories that I live, but there's plenty of people that have done way more than i've ever done and and sacrifice infinitely more than I ever sacrificed. so. Thankful for being here.

I know that you put all kinds of information and I the same back at you. You know, I I have greatly benefit from the information that you put out. And so I think you as well, and I appreciate comment on here and appreciate you spread the word about how people can be Better yourself. So thanks for help me. I appreciate them.

appreciate you and appreciate this time. And let's do IT again check. K, thank you for join me for today's discussion with joko willing. I hope you learned as much as I did in terms of actionable knowledge to use in our everyday lives. If you d like to learn more about jocose work in the various things is involved in, please check out the joko podcast.

Please also check out the various links in the showing te captions to jock OS excEllent books on leadership, both for adults and for kids, and check out some of the other links that relate to some of his other business ventures. If you're learning from end or enjoying this podcast, please subscribe our youtube channel. That's a terrific zero cost way to support us.

In addition, please subscribe to the podcast on spotify and apple. And on both spotify and apple, you can leave us up to a five star review if you have questions for us or topics that you'd like us to cover or guess that you'd like me to include on the human lab podcast. Please put those suggestions in the comments section on youtube.

I do read all the comments. In addition, please check out the sponsors mentioned at the beginning and throughout today's episode. That's the best way to support this podcast on various episodes of the huberman lab podcast, we discuss supplements.

While supplements aren't necessary for everybody, many people drive tremendous benefit from them for things like enhancing sleep focus, horton support and many other features of mental health, physical health and performance. The huberman lab podcast is proud to be partnered with moments tious supplements. Momentous supplements are of the very highest quality, and they focus on single ingredient formulations, which is very important if you are going to develop the most cost effective and biological effective supplement regiment for you.

In addition, they ship internationally, which is important because I know many of you resided outside of the united states. If you'd like to see the supplements discuss on this podcast, you can go to live momentous dot com slash huberman. And there you can also get twenty percent off any of momentous supplements.

If you're not already following us on social media, we are huberman lab on instagram, twitter, facebook and linton. And in particular on instagram, I cover science and science related tools, some of which overlap with the content of the huberman lab podcast, much of which is distinct, however, from the content of the huberman in lab pockets, again, it's huberman lab on all social media platforms. And if you haven't already subscribed to our neural network newsletter, it's a zero cost of monthly newsletter.

You simply sign up with your email by going to your room and lab 点 com。 The newsletter includes summaries of podcast episodes. We have tool kids for sleep, tool kits for focus, tool kids related to deliberate cold exposure, heat exposure and much, much more.

Again, all zero cost. You provide your email to sign up. We do not share your email with anybody.

There are also sample newsletters there that you don't even need to sign up for. You can just download the pity efforts, view them on your computer or phone screen. Thank you once again for joining me for my discussion with jack a willing. And as always, thank you for your interest in science.