Everything you want to know: Gary and Andrew Pt.1
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The public has had a long-held fascination with detectives. Detectives see a side of life the average person is never exposed to. I spent 34 years as a cop. For 25 of those years, I was catching killers. That's what I did for a living. I was a homicide detective.

I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead, I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated. The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some of the content and language might be confronting. That's because no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged. Join me now as I take you into this world.

Welcome to another episode of I Catch Killers. This is going to be a lot of fun, or I think it's going to be a lot of fun. Today, as a Christmas special, our producer has come up with an idea. How about we let someone else host I Catch Killers? So we had a choice of people, and the person that we've picked is Andrew Hamilton. You might know that name. It's a former guest on I Catch Killers, stand-up comedian that did a bit of time in prison for selling mushrooms, of all things. He's a stand-up comedian, and he's a stand-up comedian.

He's a funny guy. I've got a lot of time for him, and I'm handing over the reins of iCatchKillers to Andrew Hamilton. Don't know how this is going to go, but he's got a list of questions from listeners that have sent in, and he's got the floor.

I'm nervous, and I'll explain why I'm nervous, because I've got here in the studio with me Andrew Hamilton, former guest on I Catch Killers. You might recall, a stand-up comedian, happened to do a little bit of time in jail for an issue over mushrooms, something along those lines. Our producer on I Catch Killers decided it's been a hard year, a long year, and we get a lot of listeners say they've got questions that they'd like to put to me.

And Emily came up with the idea, why don't we get Andrew Hamilton back and you can hand over the reins to him to run iCatch Killers and he can ask you the questions and I'm the guest. So, Andrew, be kind, please. The hunter has become the hunted. Gary, it's great to be here. Thank you very much for inviting me on.

I had a lot of fun when you invited me on as a guest. I still have people messaging me now that listen to that podcast. And, you know, I think one of my favorite things from that was I was talking about my time in jail and my time as a drug dealer. And you were laughing at some of it, but then you kept having a break and be like, just to remind everyone what he was doing was illegal. Don't try this at home type situation. Yeah, I know.

So that was the best. So it was great to be back. I guess I wanted to start by asking you, because I, as a comedian, I have people all the time that come up to me and want to tell me their favourite of my jokes and ask me questions about comedy. But when you're out in public, it must be mostly people coming up to want to talk about homicide, about you being a cop. Yeah, generally speaking. Pretty grim stuff to have to constantly be talking about.

It's heavy, but I spent a long time as a homicide cop and even hanging out with the victim's families and that, you've got to find some light in that darkness because it is a dark world. Like you can't, what's your job? My day would start when someone has been murdered and you're looking at a body.

So it's a heavy, heavy topic, but people are interested in it. But you can talk about it with a respectful way. And I always preface when I'm talking about homicide, it's all right to find some light in the

Because it is pain. That's what homicide's about. But, yeah, people do have a fascination about it. It's better than someone coming up and saying, you're a cop, I got a speeding ticket the other day, or talking like that. I can't do those conversations. You'd rather the murder conversations? I'd rather talk about a homicide than... Than the really petty side of... Yeah, I got a ticket when I was only going, you know, 5km over. I don't want to hear about that. I've got my own problems with those tickets. Well, what...

One of my biggest pet peeves with the law right now is when there's signs that say you can't eat in this smoking area that they have at pumps.

Yeah. Well, they must be the kind of gripes that people talk to you about. You're like, this is not really my area. Exactly right. You're a policeman. Can you sort that out? Well, are you intending to eat the meal there? I know. It's funny. I like rules. This sounds weird. I like rules because it keeps society in line. But

I only like the rules I like. And I push back against authority sometimes with the rules. I think they're ridiculous. I'm not just talking smoking there. COVID.

Dare I talk that word? That frustrated hell out of me when we're going through that for a couple of years. And then the people making the big calls were the ones in power and power corrupts. And some of the decisions that were made with COVID just, I just, I wanted to protest. I wanted to march down the street. Yeah. Well, there were people that lost their jobs that were cops because they refused to get vaccinated. Yeah.

And I think the whole thing was a mess. It was a mess. And what I saw with it was that power. And I'd see the politicians. You know, we used to get the 11 a.m. briefing on what we're allowed to do. I call it the headmaster's going to speak to us or the headmistress is going to speak to us. It felt like I was back at school.

A lot of people do get into the job in blue because they are massive sticklers for the rules, though, I think. When I first got out of jail and I was under house arrest, I was dating a girl who is a corrections officer.

And we were hitting it off for a couple of months before she realized that I was in an ICO. And so she was like, oh, no, I'll lose my job if we continue this. And I was like, come on. Firstly, no one needs to know. But yeah, massive stickler for the rules. And so that all fizzled out as quickly as it started. That was a lost love? Yeah. Do you want to talk about it?

But it was, I was just like, that was what I was showing me. Like, yeah, people that can get involved in either being cops or corrections officers, usually like they love a rule and they'll stick to it. I had a rule when I was in quarantine at Parkway prison. They only let you out of your cells for half an hour a day to make phone calls and to get some fresh air.

And you would interact with other inmates in the quarantine wing. But all the inmates were all at different stages of their quarantine. So I was on day two. There were guys on day 13. And I try to point out to the guards that that defeated the entire purpose of quarantine. Because if I'm coming in with COVID and I'm on day two and giving it to a guy on day 14, he's better go into Gen Pop, into the main yard. But you're trying to introduce logic. Yeah.

Yeah. And so that was one of my first lessons of being a boy in green, trying to tell the boys in blue how to do their job. And they were like, you're an idiot. Shut up. Well, probably. Yeah.

Excuse me. But then, Parklea Prison had one of the biggest COVID outbreaks in any prison in the country. So what are we saying here? They should have listened to Andrew Hamilton. I fucking told you so. Well, I did write a letter to the governor trying to point out these flaws that I saw in the whole COVID system, and then I got moved to Long Bay Jail soon after. So it wasn't a coincidence. I'm sure you're probably the first prisoner that's ever complained about rules within the prison. Yeah.

I said something to... I was like, dear governor, I just wanted to point out some errors in this bureaucratic labyrinth here. Good word. Nice use of a word. I remember reading an article about you saying why you got into the police force and I think when you were...

you got into, I got up to no good and the, you know, you were in with the wrong crowd and you saw this moment of a guy on the run being chased by cops. Yep. And you thought that looked pretty cool. Yeah. And you were like, Oh, I wouldn't mind doing that. Uh, and, and being involved in, in kind of good verse evil.

It seemed that simple to me. And I've got to say, I didn't join for any noble reasons to make society a better place or any of that. I was working on the building site. I'd been in a ceiling all day as an electrician. It was hot. All the insular was up there. I was itchy. I was dirty.

and out there and just seeing two cops chasing the bad guy up the road and I thought, yeah, that looks like fun. - See, some of us probably see that same scenario and look at the crim and go, that looks like fun, being the one on the run. - I took the numbers. There was two cops, one crook. I went with the odds. - But I think you're totally right. When would you watch police movies?

It's usually the cop has some glorious backstory about the reason they got into the force is because their dad got shot at a liquor store or something and they always wanted to catch the bad guys. But the reality of it, I think, is much simpler than that. It's just someone needed a job or they got into it because their family were already doing it or something like that. The ones I think, and this is a generalization, one that thinks I'm joining to change the world or make the world a better place...

I think there's a burnout, the shelf life in that. I learnt that. I think I became that towards the end of my career in that I saw what crime would create and the pain and the suffering from that. So, yeah, I bought into that. But again, generalising, any cops that I look up to, people that I respect, I don't know any of them that have joined specifically to make the world a better place. This looks like a cool job. Let's do that and see how that goes.

It's probably the first few years when you join the police force, you don't even get a sense of that because you've been given the shit-kicker jobs. Yeah, and it's so confusing. You go out there and domestic situations, you're 22, 23, you know nothing about life.

They put a uniform on you, give you a gun, and then you're knocking on the door and there's a 40-year-old man arguing with his wife and kids are there and you're trying to tell this person how to behave themselves in their own house. You do get thrown in the deep end. I started your old stamping ground. I'm still following up some unsolved crimes around Hornsby. The Pacific Highway, the gridlock before the F3 and all that.

I'm wearing a uniform and normally if there's a break in the traffic, you run across the road. I didn't realise the power of the uniform because I did that like I normally would. There was a break in the traffic, run across the road and all those cars slammed on their brakes because there's a uniform officer on the highway. I'm just trying to cross away from the cross signs. But yeah, it's an interesting experience. But I feel for people because you do get thrown in the deep end. Does it give you a bit of an ego when you realise the power of the uniforms?

It can, but if you take the right look at it, it's also a little bit scary. Yeah. I think that there's so many instances of over-policing and I'm not a big fan of like a million sniffer dogs at Newtown Station picking up guys with $10 a weed, but I'm

I think everyone's on their side when it comes to sovereign citizens. I'm always on the side of the cops when these people are saying that they don't have to obey the law because they haven't signed a contract with the government and all this kind of stuff. And you're like, shut up, mate. I know. They are real try-hards, aren't they? And they would be so frustrating and annoying. Where do you even start with that? No one has sympathy with the sovereign citizens. Okay, we're voting them out.

All right, let's get through some of these questions. We've got a lot of ones that people have sent through on Instagram. What's the craziest story that you've ever had while policing? Where do you start with that? Look, policing you get in situations that you'd never expect to be in. I was kicked off a plane to Pakistan one time and that was doing escort duty, taking a prisoner back to Pakistan on a commercial flight.

I was with my work partner, Jason Evers, and we're excited. Like, this trip's come up, we're going to take this prisoner back to Pakistan, and then we get to spend three or four days overseas and enjoy ourselves. Do cops put their hand up for those kind of jobs? Because that sounds like a little free holiday. It was. Back in the day, it was something that if you got in, and they'd hire the cops because you knew how to control people and different powers, so...

Basically, until the plane takes off, you haven't got a lot of authority, but in the air, you're there, you're escorting the prisoner. We walked out of the homicide office and laughing at our mates and friends in the office going, we're off to Pakistan tonight and we're going to have a great time, blah, blah, blah. And then we're going here, going there. Had the whole holiday planned. Work trip. Yeah.

We get the prisoners handed over to us at the airport. We get on the plane. We're down the back of the plane. Three seats. We put the prisoner near the window seat. I'm sitting in the middle seat. Jason's on the right-hand side. Jason's looking at what movies are on for the flight because it's going to be a long flight. And the prisoner's tapping his leg and getting agitated, getting agitated like that.

And I've gone, this is not good because previously prisoners had gone to the bathroom and smashed the toilets up before the flight takes off. So therefore they can't get deported. So I'm talking to this prisoner beside me and going, you're right. And he's gone, I've got to go to the toilet. And I said, you're not going to the toilet. And he's basically said, well, I'm going to piss myself. I'm going to do this and carrying on. Got to the point, all the passengers are getting on.

I've said to Jason, we've got a problem here. We'll take him down to the toilet and we won't let him lock himself in because that's when they smash it up and then the plane can't take off.

We're down the back of the plane and this is how it's basically going. I've got the toilet door open. He's yelling out, I'm not a terrorist. I'm a human being at the top of his voice. If you could picture the whole of the plane turning up and looking and I'm going, settle down, settle down. He started swearing and Jason's doing his best standing in front of us going, nothing to see here. He's just afraid of flying. And this person is screaming out, I'm not a terrorist. I'm a human being.

I knew I'd lost the battle and he's struggling, so we're fighting. I'm bouncing in and bouncing out and coming back in and trying to restrain him. And then he started swearing. And I knew I'd lost the battle at this point in time. I said, could you please not swear there's women and children on the plane? And then...

Then the co-pilot comes down. Is there a problem here? No. We got kicked off the plane. It's a pretty lonely place at Sydney Airport at 10 o'clock at night when you're waiting for your bags to come out. Fuck. I mean, how are you supposed to get this guy to point B if he's going to...

Well, this is like quite a few trips. I did one to Paris. Yeah. And it was with my partner, Pam Young, who I've seen at the time. So it was a great trip. Do you want to go to Paris for the weekend? Yeah, great. We'll go to Paris. And this French national had arrived at the airport and turned it on with customs or the federal police.

And so he was going to be deported, wasn't allowed into the country. They contact us Friday morning. Are you right to go to Paris this weekend? Yeah, okay, we'll do that. I'd been up on a murder investigation for, hadn't slept for a couple of days. Pick him up at the airport. We get on the plane and he misbehaved the whole time. There was a stopover at Singapore. Pam had to get off with the passports. We've got no real power once we're in Singapore. It's a little bit of bluff.

and get off the plane. And then he's running around the plane for about two hours. I'm chasing him. He's only a little fellow, which was lucky. I'm holding him. Didn't sleep. Satchels of sugar. He just kept drinking, like just eating. And it was just, he whined. And I remember he had a didgeridoo with him. That was part of his property, which was quite strange. We got to Heathrow Airport.

We hadn't slept now for 24 hours because he misbehaved the whole time. And at Heathrow Airport, I'm pointing, because he couldn't speak English, pointing to the police walking around with their weapons. And I'm pointing to them and going, you misbehave, this is what happens. And I've got his passport and I'm pretending to rip it up. In our broken English, he said if I take him to the smoking, the little fish tank smoking bays they had,

I had to sit in the smoking bay with him for two hours. I didn't smoke. He's sitting there and smoking. Then we got him on the plane and got him to Charles de Gaulle. He said if you took him there, he'll behave. Yeah, he'll behave. So that was a fair compromise. But you get experiences like that. Like I've had a lot of homicide experiences.

I also sung happy birthday to John Howard when he was prime minister because I was looking after him and I had to put in $2 for his birthday cake. And there was only about five of us in his office singing happy birthday to the prime minister. You don't expect to get experiences like that. Why did you ever chip in?

I don't know, tight ass. No, actually, I'm not the political leaning one way or the other, but I looked after him a bit and he was quite a nice man. But yeah, he's a bit tight ass. He made us chip in for his birthday cake or his staff kid. Surely that's getting written off somewhere. Well, how do you explain that? I think you can expense that one. Who's the dumbest crook you've ever had to deal with?

Oh, actually some in their dumbness are quite smart because sometimes I come up with a real intricate interview plan or operation that, okay, we're going to do this. Then that person will react that way. We'll catch him there. Really complex plans, have the briefing, got the whiteboard, do the whole thing.

interview plan, I'm going to nail this person when we get in the interview room. And you go, were you there? No. Well, you show him exhibit A, here's a photo of you actually arriving there. Here's your fingerprint from being at the location. You just nail him on every single point and go, have you done it? No.

Because he's agreeing. Do you agree they're your fingerprints? Yep. Do you agree that's a photo of you? Yes. Do you agree that's at the premises where the person was killed? Yes. You laid it all out.

And so you think, okay, the obvious next question. You're relying on logic. So why did you do it? I didn't. Yeah, so they outsmart you. First time I arrested a prisoner that escaped from prison, I thought it would be dramatic like you see on TV and guns drawn and it would be a heavy situation, which sometimes they are with escapees. But this bloke, I've sort of come around the corner and he's just standing there. I said, should you be in prison? And he looked down embarrassed and said yes. LAUGHTER

See, they're not all John Killick escaping in a helicopter from some water. I would have liked to have been on that case, and I know he's a mate of yours and a mate of mine escaping in a helicopter. That shouldn't have worked, but it worked, and it's just an unbelievable story. No, it sounds like something from a movie. And even the Russian girlfriend and the hijacking the helicopter, it was perfect. Yeah.

But yes, the most common cases, I think, yeah, would be ones where someone just breaks out of somewhere and then they're caught within an hour or two. Yeah, yeah. And that's the thing. So you go into, you've got to laugh at some of the situations. Sometimes the crooks can laugh at the situation they find themselves in. So yeah, I keep an open mind, but there's a lot of different stuff.

My name is Manny Carudis and I'm a former New South Wales policeman turned investigative reporter with a passion for missing persons cases.

In terms of dramatic things that I've been involved in,

We were doing, there was a drug plantation, it was in a national park and out near Wiseman's Ferry. And myself, I was running the operation, there was two other cops. We've gone out there and this bloke had some attack dogs, like big German Shepherds or Rockwheels or whatever, around the plantation. We had to catch him at the location because it was on a national park area, it wasn't on his property.

So we're sitting there watching the movements and we parked the police car five kilometres away and crept in through the bush. And we're watching and we've split up and I'm with my one off-sider and I had this younger detective keeping an eye on the premises. And I'm sitting there, I won't mention his name, but Paul was the bloke I was paired up with. And we're sitting there, all of a sudden we hear this

just growling and then, yeah, like just dogs sprinting for us. This is a covert operation so we couldn't scream like we wanted to scream and we take off and we're sprinting and I still remember it. It's like time stood still. We couldn't pull our guns because we're trying to keep it quiet. We couldn't scream even though we were scared and we're running. So what is it? It's a muffled...

We're running through the bush and then we get to this cliff and we've got nowhere to go and these dogs are going to, they're going to go us. And Paul and I looked at each other and we picked up two lumps of wood and we'd just come at the dogs without screaming and they're, oh shit, these dudes are serious and then run off.

We see they go, "Shit, that was close. That was so close." And then I hear three or four gunshots and I hear my name being called out, "Gary, I've been shot." And Paul and I have looked at it and then we've run in the direction of where the shots come and we're sprinting back to there. And my mate, he had come around the corner of the bush. We're sprinting and he's just covered in blood and he's just, "Gary," and then collapsed. And I thought, "Shit, what's happened here?"

What happened, the two dogs attacked him and he was wrestling on the ground and they're really going at him and he's trying to get his gun out and he's got one trying to keep the dog off his face and he shot it and shot sort of half his hand off. Oh.

But through the dog as well? The dog ran off, like the dog took off. So we're left there with our injured colleague and our car's five kilometres away. We've got no communications. We've got portable radios, but this is before mobile phones. And so we've looked for a house and we're carrying, I've taken my shirt off, we've bandaged him up and we're looking for a house going through the bush. We found this house and you can't make this shit up.

There's this lady, and I think she was an alcoholic, because we've come there. We're police. We've got a bloke covered in blood, bleeding, and we're going, have you got a phone? We need to use your phone. And she said, would you like a drink? LAUGHTER

And she went and got a drink. But could we use your phone? We ended up, the ambulance wouldn't come in until the police came in and cleared because this bloke had firearms. So you get experiences like that. I mean, that's lovely hospitality. But I still remember that. And luckily, my mate Paul, he was a nurse before he joined the cops because our injured colleague.

colleague was starting to hyperventilate and you learn things too each day because Paul said is there a vacuum cleaner bag here and I'm thinking god we've got the owner of the house wanting a drink you're looking for the vacuum cleaner and just getting him to blow into a bag just so he wasn't hyperventilating so you have situations like that and uh

tragic what happened. We ended up catching the bloke, but you get paid for that. That's an adventure. It's exciting times. It is. How do you decompress after a situation like that? Because I would find I just want to go to the pub for a few beers straight after a situation like

Yeah, we do. And I've learned because I was involved in a couple of incidents and another one where a crook was shot and killed when I was speaking to him. And you get put in, this is before people really understood post-traumatic stress and the way people should be decompressed from incidents like that.

So you get put in a room with all the cops sitting around and a psychologist or whatever will come in and go, has anyone got a problem here? And all the tough guys and girls go, no, no. And that's not so much the one where the...

cop was shot with the dog thing. I process that, but we did go out on the drink that night. But that's it? Everyone's sitting in a room going, has anyone got a problem? Everyone got a problem. Then you get dragged into internal affairs. Then you're getting interviewed like you've done something wrong because that's the starting point. And then the one piece of advice they say, look, don't go out drinking. And what

Just as a guess, what they think the first thing is, you go out and you get on the piss big time. And after that crook that was shot and killed, I remember I went out, got on the drink, and we'd been tough guys. Okay, this is the world we operate in. But I remember I got home that night

and I was going to leave the cops. I wanted to become a florist or something. So it took a couple of days to process that. Even, I mean, these days we talk about opening up and it ain't weak to speak, but if you're in that kind of situation with a whole bunch of coppers and you've had that situation, they might as well say, is anyone here a pussy? Because, well, what are you going to say? You're not going to be allowed to say that.

That's exactly how we interpreted that conversation. Right? Yeah, actually, it's really affecting me. I'm fine. I'm really upset by that. That was rather traumatic. Look, they got better now. Like in homicide, we were meant to see a psychologist every six months. And yeah, bravado. But it gave an opportunity where you could actually say, well, I'm doing a bit tough on things. So society's learned that you can actually talk about it. But sometimes, you know,

getting on the drink was a good thing and early days in the detectives it probably went too far like quite often yeah we'd finish the day and then there'd be a long lunch that turns into a dinner and all that and you got into that habit but that was the day of the corporate lunches and all that so

But some funny, it's just making me think about some of the lunches. As a young detective, and I think this is statute barred now, or I can't remember the names of the people, even if they wanted me to. Gone for a drink at a local Chinese restaurant, as you do as a detective on a Friday afternoon. And there's this bloke sitting there. There was interstate police down. And there was a bloke there that was dressed in not the detective sort of outfit.

And we're sitting talking and he's gone up to go to the toilet. I said, who's this bloke? Where's he work? Oh, no, he's a prisoner. We're taking him back. It was, yeah. And he's just moving around fairly. A little bit loose. But those were the days. And they had to change. But it was funny in the things that could happen.

Do you think that all your interactions with people that are constantly lying to you to protect themselves and also just the crimes you've seen have made you a bit of a cynic?

Yeah, I don't know whether cynic's the right word, but I don't buy into you could sit here and look at me, you're blue in the face going, I didn't do it, I didn't do it. That doesn't mean a lot to me. I'll read body language and a bit of instinct, but looking at the facts with the instinct. But

Cynic in that if someone says they haven't done, everyone's got secrets and you find that out and people are prepared to lie to protect themselves or protect other people. So a little bit cynical in that, oh, but they said he didn't do it. I had some detectives. There was one particular detective, a young detective that came into the office and quite sort of guy.

Got a crook in there and this is me talking like an old school cop but there's a crook in there that's done this job 100% and in work, his name's not John but we'll call him John just for the sake of the story. John goes in there and you see the crook talking to him and I'm watching just seeing how he's going in the interview room and John comes out and goes, I don't think he did it.

Really, John? And so I don't think he, yeah, he's got a skill set that maybe didn't relate to being a detective. And then they go in there and go, mate, you're saying that you didn't do it. We've got you on this, this and that. Yeah, I did it. Looks like he's done it.

So I suppose you learn a little bit, but cynic, yeah, I'd like to think I'm not a cynic. Do you think that it's sometimes unhelpful having that perspective because you're dealing with people that are lying to you all the time, that sometimes it can leak into your personal life or friends and family, that when you kind of catch them out of the lie, you could probably let it go, but you're using your detective skills to... I have been, and whether it's a domestic situation, family situation or friends, I'm thinking...

I know I've got the skills to break you down. It could be a harmless thing where your mate said, no, I didn't do it. And you're thinking, I can prove that he's done it. If we got the CCTV, if we got this, got that. There is an element of that. You're at the pub. Your mate says, oh, you're going to have to get the next round. I forgot my wallet. And you know for a fact you saw a bulge in his pants when he was walking in. And you're like... And then...

He's like, you're right, Gary. Actually, I've got a gambling problem. I lost all my money, but I do have my wallet. You're right. Are you happy now? You're like, no, I don't feel better now that I've busted the case. But you're right. That is something. And I suppose in domestic relationships too, you've got that propensity to really break it down and go, oh, that doesn't quite add up if I'm looking here and there and the time –

When you've got a timeline or whatever for a friend or family member, you know you've gone too far. But my kids, they hated it because they thought the cops, as kids do, have got special powers. And, you know, as you do as a young kid, you're going to lie to your parents. No, I wasn't doing that. I wasn't doing that.

You realise what they do for work. I do know. And they think there's special powers that you haven't actually got. And I've got some confessions that way from kids. How many times would their friends have been nervous about any kind of trouble they were going to get up to? Because they're like, your old man's a cop. My son got called out big time in the one... He's done a lot of things that I probably shouldn't talk about.

At one stage, I was seeing a person in Perth, and I had a place up on the coast, on the central coast. So my house was empty when my son was a teenager, and he knew I was going to Perth for that weekend. I'm thinking, what would I be doing when I'm a teenager? I'd be going, when are you going, Dad? What time are you coming back? What flight are you on? That type of stuff. And he never really asked me questions. So I'm thinking, my God, I've raised a nerd. He's not...

exploiting the situation of an empty house. Not until he got older, 18, 19, I'm finding out some of the parties that he had at that house and they were apparently legendary parties because Jubo's old man has gone over to Perth.

Wow. So you were there thinking you're too smart for him because otherwise he'd be a dead giveaway. Yeah. But he was too smart for you. And his mates would say, remember the time we nearly dropped that and we had to clean this up and clean that up? Because I'd go through and go, it doesn't look like they've done anything here. But he got caught out big time. The classic, I'm staying at Matt's and Matt's staying here. And so no one really knows where they're staying.

And there was an armed robber creating havoc around Chatswood. So I'd been out till 2 o'clock in the morning. I'm driving home and there's this pack of kids in a coastal town where we're living.

probably 40 or 50 kids that have just, and it's unmarked police car, just driven, I'm driving up there and they swarmed around the car like a pack of sheep. They were just up to cause trouble, you know, 13, 14 year olds. I coach my son's soccer team. So I knew some of the faces. I'm looking around going, that's interesting. And then one of his best mates, I'm sitting there because they've stopped the car. I couldn't do anything.

And I've wound the window down and he stuck his head in there to say something or be funny. And he's just gone, shit, it's Juba's dad. And I watched the kids just run and disperse. Jake's out all night. He's come home the next morning. He's walking up the stairs and he's not looking at me. Oh God, did you have a good night last night?

And he's gone, I've been caught, haven't I? And I go, what gave it away? He said, the car. I was hoping that wasn't your car. My old man was a teacher at a school in Wurundjeri. And luckily, I'm the fourth of five, so we've mellowed out over time.

But my elder sister was at a party when she was like 16 and my dad taught at the same school that she went to and he went to pick her up and he realized that there was no parents, parental supervision at the party. And he knew all the kids at the party. So when he went home, he called all their parents to let them know that they'd been at this party. So my sister was like a,

She was a leper. No one wanted to associate her after that. And that's a teacher. So I feel for that. When your best mate's dad is a cop, you're like, oh, shit, we've got to be careful here. And I don't think they enjoyed it. I really don't. And there was nothing cool about your dad being a cop. And a couple of times when I was with them, I had to step in and pull the badge on different things.

And as you are at that age as a teenager, you're just so embarrassed and they're just going, don't do this, dad, don't do this. And I go, just wait here. What are the cases that you would say that you're most proud of over the course of your career?

Look, I've done some high profile cases. The cases that I'm proud of are the ones that I bought a skill set or the team that I'm working with, we bought a skill set to that matter to make sure that they get solved. And the ones, the longer you stay in homicide, you get to the point where you're looking for a challenge with an investigation. That sounds cocky or whatever.

There's some murders that are pretty easy to solve. Some of the things I'm most proud of are just where you get called out because as a homicide detective, you're on call. So if there's a murder anywhere in the state, you get notified as a homicide team. And then...

You get called out to that location. You might only spend a day or two there, but you're making some real hard, sharp decisions. And as a result of those decisions, it might be as simple as seize that car, get the statement from that person. These matters get solved. They're the ones that I'm generalising here. They're the ones I'm proud of.

obviously it comes to mind and this is one that people throw it back at me go you haven't haven't solved it it hasn't been solved by the courts but I know I made a difference in in that community the indigenous community where uh Evelyn Clinton and Colleen were murdered and the way that they were treated at the start and I came in on the reinvestigation I'm I'm extremely uh proud of that in that showing that yeah we do care like people care they taught me a lot about

A lot about myself, a lot about the way I live my life and a lot about being a police officer. So many different ones that I'm proud of. I don't like to single them out because every life is so important. But in a general sense, the ones that you're told you can't solve are the ones that inspire me. Yeah. Are there ones where you kind of got close to losing hope? You're like, I think I just and then something clicked. Yeah. Yeah.

Murder of Barbara Saunders was the first, and that was back in 2000. And it was a lady that was shot at Norman Hurst Railway Station. She was coming home from shopping.

And that was the first investigation that I led as a detective sergeant. And I threw everything I had into that investigation. I wasn't sure where it was going to go. And then we got a breakthrough after about four or five, six weeks, which led to solving the crime. I'm really pleased of that. And that was linking...

And it's an interesting story, and I talk about this sometimes lecturing that you've got to address the little crimes before they become a big, big crime. So what happened with the murder of Barbara, and it was a tragedy. She's just in the wrong place at the wrong time. Some kids, and they were only kids. It's sad all around. Some kids started breaking into a school canteen, and that wasn't investigated properly. They kept breaking into the school canteen, got away with that.

Then they started breaking into houses and again if you really put the resources in you could have solved it but it just wasn't treated, wasn't recognised as a potentially serious crime. They broke into a house that had a gun and they've stolen the gun. Then

Then they've done an armed robbery at the local liquor store. And so the crime's escalating. Then Barbara, who's been out Christmas shopping with some of the old friends, had come back, got off the train, and these kids fronted her and wanted her bag. And she resisted. They've panicked and they've shot her and killed her. That was such a tragedy. And

We got the breakthrough in that came when we linked some of her, oh, that's right, some of her stolen property was used at a service station. And I'll say this, it's not giving away methodology, but we recreated the crime scene a week after she was murdered.

And one of the kids that was involved in the murder came walking through the crime scene and we got his name and that's how we linked the crime. Just came in for a sticky bag. Came in curiosity. We made a point of recreating the scene. We want to speak to people in the area and he couldn't help himself and came in. And that happens a lot in investigations. People ingratiate themselves in the investigation because I think they're

I won't say curious because it's not curious. I think they're just troubled and worried and just want to find out what's going on. I mean, you see that in movies all the time where the serial killer is still lurking around because it's like an ego thing. They think that they're invisible or whatever. They want to have a close eye on what the investigation is doing. 100%. 100%. And you've got to look at that and think, why is this person?

I have another one that it was a horrible, horrible murder. An elderly lady and she was sexually assaulted in a home in her 80s.

And there was a bloke that really, he kept walking around the area saying that, yeah, he's a suspect for this job. As it turned out, he wasn't the suspect. But people, it's funny how people react when someone's been murdered. And what, he actually had done it? No, no, he hadn't done it. Oh, he was just an attention seeker or something? He, yeah, he...

He was a weirdo. He was a weirdo. And you come across a lot of weirdos. And when I say that, I say it without any mental health background or knowledge. They're just weird fucks. But that must muddy the waters. You know, when you're trying to talk to someone and identify a suspect, and there's some people who just answer questions really badly because they're just odd people.

And you've got to be wary of that because I call it like a litmus test in that I'll ask a question and just see a reaction from a person. But you've got to factor in some people don't think rationally. And I always make the point a lot of times, and I was taught this by people that I looked up to, and I tried to pass this knowledge on to other people, that when someone commits a crime, and I'd be going, look, this happened. We do have the whiteboards, like we say. We love the whiteboards in the incident room.

And going, we've got this, we've got that. And someone will say, but why would you do that? And I always throw back, you're trying to put a rational thought into an irrational mind. And you've got to be mindful of that. Does good cop, bad cop still work as a tactic? I love it. Do you switch it up? When it really confuses bad cop, bad cop, that sends them into a spin. But it works. And I say this, good cop, bad cop.

it's human nature you want to be yeah you want to be liked or most people do so you gravitate towards a person that's showing you the empathy and that and

The other thing, Andrew, is that people, why do people confess? Sometimes I've come out of an interview room and go, how did you get that person to confess? Quite often, you think of the worst thing you've done in your life. And no, don't actually. I don't want you to confess. I don't want you to confess. Worst thing you've done in your life and the burden that you carry with it. But if you've got a best mate or someone close to you that you can confess and it takes a little bit of pressure off.

Imagine if you murdered someone, the weight of pressure that you're carrying on your shoulders. And I've honestly seen some people just unburden themselves in that, you know, it's not intimidation. It's not coming over the top of them. They just want to clear their conscience and go, yeah, this happened. And you see it. You see it. It changes. They go from just...

and then they feel better. Now, feel better, they go into jail for 20 years. It's not a real... You're not selling something. You're not selling a house to them. But quite often, confessions come from the fact that they just want to... Lighten that load. Yeah, yeah. Because you carry it. Like, imagine... And, you know...

people, you've committed a serious crime. Cops can come and get you 20 years, 30 years down the track. So it's a load to carry. What about when you come at someone hard, the bad cop, and you're trying to get information out of them, but it turns out they're the wrong guy? Yeah.

That must be hard as well, to feel like I was a total prick to this person and they were totally innocent. When I've lectured in detective's courses or the homicide courses, I use this story, and I won't identify the actual crime, but a question where a lady was killed and the husband was a potential suspect for it. So I went at him hard, and it was a hard interview, and it's...

what's with the tears, that type of thing. It was in-your-face type interview. It must be in your head. It must be a part of you. It's like, what if we're wrong? What if we get it? What if this is wrong? Most definitely. And I, you know, people, I don't like...

doing that. You don't, you know, people might think you enjoy it. No, you get in the character and you do it. That's what you're being paid to do as a homicide detective. You don't walk in there and it's not all singing kumbaya. You're trying to solve a murder. Someone's life has been taken. So you're not mucking around. You're playing first grade. So you go in there and you have the hard questions. With this bloke, I went hard at him and then for good reason. There was stuff there that, you know, potentially

made us suspect he might have had some involvement.

And then after it, we found out it wasn't him. And I spoke to him about the conversation I've had with him. And I said, look, I'm sorry, but I'm doing my job. I hope you understand that. He said, Gary, I felt so good when I saw the way that you were speaking to me in that you were the right person to be doing this job because you cared and you were going to do everything that had to be done. Not breaking rules, but just going hard. That

helped me through a lot in terms of you know i've gone hard on people and realized no they're not the person you can't take back what you've said or what you've done but that gave me a little bit of strength knowing that that's how people really think and i'm thinking if it was my loved one killed i'd want the cops cops going hard and we're not talking we're not talking to break and enter um that type of thing we're talking to murder so yeah the state stakes are high

Yeah, I mean, that's an interesting perspective. And it's, I mean, he must have just felt good to hear you also say, I'm sorry, but this is the way we've got to do things. Yeah, yeah. And you can do things in respectful ways. And if people are intimidated because of the line of questioning, well,

Well, if they've done it, I'm not worried if I'm intimidating them. I'm not threatening, promising. But if they've been intimidated by the fact that I'm professional and come in here and know my shit and go at them, I wouldn't like someone coming at me that looked professional and knew all stuff about me. So, yeah. I had a very funny conversation when my house got raided and it was like a bunch of cops going through my whole house trying to find drugs everywhere. Yeah.

And I was there with the sergeant who was just chatting to me. And I was so coked up. I was like, it was a choice between either going back to the police station or staying in the house. And I chose to stay there. And so we were just having small talk, like, where'd you grow up, all that kind of stuff. And every now and then, he'd try and add in a crime question. He'd be like, so how long have you been selling drugs here for? And I'd be like, come on, mate. We just said we were just going to have friendly small talk. And he'd go, I can't blame a guy for trying.

I've seen that tactic. I've never really bought into that tactic. Yeah, it's a nice day. Why'd you kill her? Yeah, that's what it was. That type of thing. Yeah. No, it might work. Maybe I should have tried it. And then a few minutes later, we were like, oh, you go for the eels? Yeah, you know. And so where do you get your drugs from? And I was like, come on, mate. It's a bit of like a Perry Mason type courtroom thing.

Are you ready to get an inside look at crime from someone who has investigated some of Australia's worst crimes? It was like Aladdin's cave. The luminol found bloodied footprints and bloodied handprints on a wall. So it's just like a horror movie. Former homicide detective Gary Jubiland sits down with cops, crims, addicts, victims, small-time cheats and big-town lawyers...

as they tell their incredible stories. My house got raided, next thing you know I got bail refused, next thing you know I'm on a truck to Park Lane Prison. Listen to I Catch Killers early and ad-free on Crymax Plus on Apple Podcasts today or wherever you get your podcasts. One thing I have, most people would acknowledge in the workplace is good talent is hard to find. And I imagine that's probably the same in the police force. Are there times when you've worked with colleagues and just thought, this guy's dumb as bricks? I have worked with some.

And let me say this. What do you do? I'm sure people have said they've worked with me and I'm as dumb as dumb, but this is my perspective on dumb. But what do you do when there's a guy that's leading a case and you just think that's never going to get solved if he's involved? I'm a big believer in, and when I was running investigations, I went for quality, not quantity. Like, don't give me 10 dud detectives, give me two gun detectives and I will get more done.

A couple of things, and there's some people I've worked with and I'm just thinking, what the hell? How did this person get here working on a homicide investigation? And I've worked with some people I look up to. They're younger, quicker, smarter. They come in and keep me on my toes. So it's not me sitting myself above everyone. But

But there's a lot of paperwork in policing and I had a couple of people on a high profile strike force that a file, an exhibit file, it's about as simple as simple can be. This could be the exhibit, this glass. The glass was seized at such and such. It has now been fingerprinted. It can be returned to the owner or destroyed. It's a little half page report.

this guy couldn't do a exhibit file. And I'm thinking, and I've gone to the person that sits above me, the boss above me, and go, what do you want me to do with this person? Like, he's, well, help him, encourage him and support him. I'd have to take him back to kindergarten. How did he get this far? Yeah, how did he get this far? And they should set standards. I'm a big one in setting standards. There needs to be pass and fail. If someone can't, you know,

or put a report on paper. They shouldn't be doing the job. There might be other roles that they can do. There might be other roles that they can do that don't need that but don't have them in that environment. And there's some that are just, I say, just stupid.

No, I think we've probably all met those people in any workplace. But how do you solve it to get the right people to be detectives? Is it just a money thing? Is it a PR thing to pitch this is the job? Or do you have to actively go and try and recruit people that weren't even looking to be a detective? I know people. I know people I could pull off the street and give me a week and I could make them a professional.

productive member of an investigative team. I think there needs to be standards set there and people go, oh, you arrogant prick saying this, but I'm going to say it because I firmly believe it.

When I came into homicide, it was you had to pay your dues. You worked as a local detective. Someone might have noticed your work. And then you worked in major crime, different sorts of major crime, organised crime that might be the armed hold-up squad. And then if you were performing in that, you got the tap on the shoulder and you got the homicide. When I got the homicide, it was the proudest moment of my career that this is what I aspired to. I looked at these people as gods, homicide detectives.

By the time I left policing, in homicide, we were having people come into homicide that weren't even designated detectives, that hadn't even got the designation. So designation of detective, two years sort of training to have the privilege, and I think it should be a privilege, of being called the detective. So people that are plainclothes constables haven't even finished their detective's course working homicide.

Then you've got people, when you apply... But why is that? Why are they getting fast-tracked into that? I think a shortage of police, which is sort of a chronic problem. But I also... I've dealt with some people that really...

actively sought to get them out of the cops. And what I saw with state elections, because I was dealing with the police medical officer a lot because I had a couple of people with some serious problems that I kept getting told, but it's a performance issue. I'm going, they're mad. And they're saying, well, the parameters of insanity are this wide. They fit within that. They've not seen pink elephants fly, but they're pretty close.

But the state election and law and order becomes an issue. So they all, people that were rejected to join the police are now accepted to,

be the police. And it was like, you could see the spike after about 18 months. These are all the people that end up back at the police medical officer because they're not suitable to be police officers. So it's people that, it's a vocation. It's people that want to do it. People that are committed to do it. I'd had people on homicide that didn't like working weekends or couldn't work in the afternoon. It's not a nine to five job. Yeah.

I just want to do part-time homicide solving. Look, you can, and there's some women because of children have worked part-time and committed. But there's people that I just really, they're not conscripts. So you come to homicide, you're going to see dead bodies, you're going to have to work hard. And I just really believe the level...

And the point, I remember having a discussion and I'm not going to lose any friends on it, but this is the reality of it. There's a person that's applying to be an inspector at the homicide but didn't want to come to homicide. And I've gone, well, why would we have an inspector at the homicide that doesn't want to be there? He's not hungry for the job. Not hungry. You've got to be passionate about it. Passion with perspective, but you've got to be hungry about it. So yeah, you can see I've still got the passion for it in that

Murders are solved because, and it doesn't have to be the leader of the investigation, but because committed people are doing something above and beyond and really nailing it. And you make one mistake with a murder and people literally get away with murder. So you need people, you need smart people, you need passionate people and people that are dedicated to the job. Do you miss it?

It's been what, how long? It was 2019 when you... Yeah, yeah, yeah. So we're going into almost six years now. I still, I miss aspects of it. I never feel as alive as I do when I'm on the trial to solve a murder. I got job satisfaction from it. I enjoyed it. People often say with the police, I miss the people. There's certain people I miss. I'm not going to say I miss the people. I miss the...

the rest of your life could be a clusterfuck but you were doing some good in policing. Having said that, look, I'm having a ball with what I'm doing now and it's opened up opportunities for me that I wouldn't have got and I reckon, you know, when you said would I be a cynic, I reckon I would have been a cynic by now if I was still in the cops. I mean,

I mean, years have gone by, but what was it like when you first left? What was that first six months like? Was it hard? Great. It's tremendous waking up in the morning and seeing your face on the TV, disgraced cop, and the front page of the paper. Yeah. It was very hard. It was...

That was my passion at the time and it was just ripped away. So anything that anyone, it doesn't have to be policing, it's what your passion is about. Imagine if your passion was just taken away from you and you're thinking it's unfair and unjust. And it took me a while to sort of recalibrate and go,

okay, well, I'm not going to, um, I'm not going to let them break me because there's certain people and they know who, who, who they are that went at me and it was just malicious. And, uh, I, I don't begrudge the police. I, I, I like the police. I like the work they're doing. And I've got a lot of good friends still in the police and there's some great, uh, great operators, but certain people for their own petty little reasons went at me and I was angry. And, uh,

Good people told me, where are you going to channel that? And I made a conscious effort just to go, okay, I'm not going to be bitter. And I sound bitter every time. I'm so fucking creaky. But I take a step back and think, okay,

what's the best form of revenge? And there is a bit of revenge in me. I'll show I can live a good life away from the cops, and I am living a good life. I'm carving out a career in the media, which is... I work hard doing stuff here on the podcast. I feel like I'm doing some good. I get invited to Parliament. I get invited to justice committees. I'm still doing things that I feel like I'm making a difference. Sure, but the way you talk about when you were a cop, that sounds almost like...

for me, an addiction. For me, when I talk about comedy, for me, it's such a positive addiction. After feeding so many negative addictions for so long, it definitely has brought out the best in me. It sounds like this thing was so good for you and you were saying even when you had troubles in your own personal life, it was like you could focus so much on this. Did you feel like you were addicted to being a cop? There is an addiction to it. You're a hunter.

And people say that. I speak to detectives I respect, and that's what we're doing. We're hunting. And you get addicted to it, and it's the thrill of the chase, and it's not diminishing the nature of the crime that you're investigating murder, but you become very driven. And that was my passion, and, you know,

Between you and me, it's the one thing I was very good at. I found something that just sort of fitted the skill set that I've got. And so I do miss that. And I miss some... I was at the stage where I had...

the passion i had the energy and i had the experience and yeah i was people that went before me it was a lineage that was passed down people that taught me i looked up to them and i i just feel like i had uh more more to offer but uh it's probably better for me where i've gone now i think i'm a better person i might have become too too focused if i stayed in much much longer

Well, you know, sometimes this shit hits the fan and you're forced to reinvent yourself, right? Yeah. And you have. Yeah. Well, you know, the people that sit here in this room, I'm thinking, Jesus, there's some interesting stories. And quite often the worst time in your life turns out to be the best time in that you turn it around. Well, just like you said that you were wronged by the police a little bit, I was as well, Gary. You know, when they arrested me for selling heaps of drugs, you know, I felt like that was...

pretty rude of them. And look, and you were passionate. Everyone my weekend. And you were, look, I can apologise on behalf of the New South Wales Police for what they did to you. You were passionate about what you did. You felt good about yourself. I was a friendly neighbourhood drug dealer. I thought I was doing good stuff. I like to think that like before they were having the meeting about raiding my house, they were like, oh, do we have to? Like, this guy seems like he's one of the good ones. And like, you know, they were having some restless nights after what I was seeing in prison. Like, oh no. Yeah.

I'm sure they're thinking about that. Andrew, I've got to say, and in this, and I've heard a lot of arrest stories, but

For some reason, your arrest story made me laugh. I'm not laughing at you. I'm laughing with you. No, well, I mean, that was one of the first kind of jokes I wrote was where the Raptor squad tackled me and told me that I had a tiny cock, you know, and I had pants on. So that was the first joke I wrote was, how do they know? They must have had me under surveillance, right? But yeah, I think, you know, I'm pretty philosophical about it now because like the life that I have now wouldn't have happened if I didn't get raided and ended up

reinventing myself in jail. And there's something empowering about reinventing yourself too. It freshens you up. It's a new challenge and you go, okay, well, this is a new world. Even like just, I've been a public servant for that long. And so I've had to set up a company and I'm looking at taxes and I'm totally out of my depth and getting advice on that. But even little things like, okay, well, I'm

doing work now. Where's my stationery cupboard? Like, you've got to go, you've got to go to, yeah. Got to do it all. You sound like a rugby league player when they're out of the system and they're suddenly like, what do I do? I've got to do all this all myself. But that was...

the printer's not working. Who's going to fix it? That was my go-to. I left as a detective chief inspector. You've got people around that can help you with that. How do you fill out this form? So, yeah, it's awakening for me. Awakening, alerting curve. And what I've done, and people that come into my place bag me because I've got all the labels. I love Dymo labelling, like in the store's cabinet. I don't know if that's an old habit from policing, but...

Blank paper, because I need that sign so I know it's blank paper there. Wow. The organisational skills have carried on, right? Yeah, exactly. Just waiting for the big breakthrough.

Should we have a break? Yeah, let's have a break now. And, yeah, I'm enjoying this. The pressure's off. If this goes bad, it's your fault. You've come storming in here saying, I'm going to run this show. I'll take the blame. You better not take my job. I will be bitter over that. Yeah, we like you more. No. Cut. All right, we'll have a break. MUSIC