What's up, everybody? This is courtland from india hk's to com. And you're listening to the indie hackers podcast. More people than ever are building cool stuff online and making a lot of money in the process.

And on this show, I sit down with these andy hackers to discuss the idea as the opportunities and the strategies they're taking advantage of so the rest of us can do the same. KO gali, welcome to the ni hacker's forecast. You're the founder of a company called gravity. I think you are a solo founder and your company's beach draft. Correct this.

And you've, I think.

growing your revenue with a pretty significant rate. You've post ly in any hackers about how you three X A revenue during covet. So we're going to get into that story. But first, i'm going to ask you to do something chAllenging. I am going to ask you to describe what gravity does in a way where even people who aren't software engineers might understand that because this is a very business, is very targeted.

The promoters yeah and is where I have a benefit because I can talk very typical, the people that they understand that. But the the non technical pitches I have finders and software companies save around three months of development time whenever they are building their soft as a service web application.

I love that description because it's like it's easy to understand as a lay person, because you just talking about benefits, you like he is. As for software engineers and web developers know what is the benefit, I help them save three months of type.

But if you're describing a you like your actual customers, have I go to your website, use gravity dot APP it's build a new J S and react sas at work, be set of a new sah product about now using other boys that play. It's very specific, which is probably what I should be because like your customer is actually know what you're doing, but like anyone else, he's not your customers. You what does how does any of the even mean?

Yeah I I was actually in a weapon earlier today and they warned tacky and they're like the rain the like what is this a type now? Is sad. Like sauce.

What is? It's pretty fly. Well, it's going really well. Are you transparently at all the revenue numbers? Are you shared? Um you know bar parking stands or what they actually are.

I used to I used to share them on india kers. I've cannot have removed IT recently because we've had some issues with copy cats. So i'm been a little bit less transparent than I used to eat. But if he didn't like tank but eat the tank month.

yeah, there's always a point, I think, where some companies will be transparently and decide i'm pulling the plug on this is going to be substantial enough, right? Don't want to clean my competitions and to how successful I am and in a way that's like almost tell, tell, sign that you are successful. It's way guy used to share revenue.

What happened? You must be crushing IT. But also IT probably takes you off the map a little bit because people are so attracted to seeing these numbers. You if you do like an ama, for example, and hackers, you say like i'm kill gali, i'm making you know X, Y, Z dollars a year or month, people will click on that way more than they will click on something that doesn't have the revenue numbers. And so it's like a sort of double edge story. Less likely to get competitors but also less likely to get you know customers or fans or no competitor s who want to basically help commiserate with you and talk to you and collaborating you.

I didn't notice that like as a gravity got Better known and I was put me, I was being a completely transparent about a st. If people get in touching my web chat gone, i'm gonna copy this. And then I actually had some incidents, tries, they were people of, like copy the product is even they ripped off like chunks of the land in page, trying to replicate the replicate S, C O shadow that i'm using. So A, B, A lot more worry now about what i'm putting out there. That's super sketch.

It's wear. The people do this and maybe it's not weird. People are trying to succeed. They have a huge financial incentive. They see exactly how much money you're making like that would change my life.

And then they see kind of the facade of what you're look at to your website. They look at your seo strategy. They don't see what's going on behind the scenes, but they see what's kind of the outer layer of what you're doing.

And then they assume that all that you're doing and they say, if I do that, i'll also make ten thousand polish month. And so they copy IT and they copy your design, and they copy the color schemes and they copy the language you use. And like as far as i've seen, like ninety and nine times that of one hundred IT doesn't go anywhere because people who aren't imagine if enough aren't strategic enough to do anything more than copy the other layers usually don't succeed. But is still pretty scary as the person spent all that time creating all the stuff in the first place to see somebody else try .

to get what you've got yeah the product part i'm not so worried about, but it's the fact that this person is like copied, impressed. All the meta data from my H T M L is copied, the vic copy ed, my F A use copied like chance of my license.

You can do like there's an h mild tag called like the C R L. And what's funny, tell google like k this page is not only, you know, one of many pages, but it's like the main page. So if anybody ever copies this page like and they have this tag, like this is the actual page that matters, don't rent the other pages and often copy.

Cats aren't sophs cared enough not to copy that, so they'll put in their code like the same critical. You are all the points back to your website and not know that they are giving you the credit because they just like copy pasting everything. It's pretty funny.

mark.

So let's talk about your journey to get to where you've gotten because not very many solo of in the hackers get here like something to be celebrated. And I think if you can get to the point where you you're making a living.

are you full time on this? Yes, I started this journey around years ago. I started another company I was called get invited that was an online that ticketing platform raised venture couple.

IT was based a complete opposite to race. Venture capital had had a team, we spending a lot of time travel, and then china grow really quickly. And what happened was, A I had this bacteria living in my stomach, but the doctor took years for to be diagnosed.

This bacteria doesn't respond well to stress. So I was like, who's getting maga stressed? Like dealing with investors and investment around had fAllen through one point.

Had that like half of the team go, and I was related the Young and you to this, and the dress was just like, company and compounding, compounding. And then one day I actually was like, I was making my lunch. I started like, I started to like, farmer is black stuff.

So I arted like, like, I was like format and black stuff that was like, this is a medical emerge and say, you get like urgent medical atten. So we went to the hospital. I remember this line in the hospital bed, and like everything, just want to completely White.

And then I woke up that always like, I like the E C G of me at always tbs in my arms. My mom was, I stand to the pad, just like I completely horrified. And then I remember to this line of that night thinking i'm, they're going to die or something as I seriously wrong with me, unlike my life, is is onna change forever?

And I remember thinking, i've just been like investing all of my energy and time into trying to build this big company I haven't really been doing. And the other things that I want to do have been traveling. So I promise myself, then if I got Better, I would go this in trouble, and I would try to find a Better worklife bus and that rome to thailand.

So like, I came to thailand for a months, and then is only I met this guy who actually that time besides me a coworking space and he used to go to my high school back home. So as I was leaving high school, he would start in high school and I asked him by what he did and he was like he's to work for start up um in belfast that I didn't like IT. So a quick my job, I moved to change my thailand ds and become a digital moment that is like, what is like are you just travel around and all these different countries and build your business?

I find this idea really interesting, so went back on for Christmas. And but the one way to get to thailand, and then I spent the whole year just traveling around thailand via am bali, japan. But I was completely lost because at this company that IT raised this money for for shall to grow IT.

I kind of realized IT, that's not a life that I wanted. I wanted to be travel irons. I want to have a lot of freedom.

And then two years ago, I was in a cover space. And and you, I want to to start another product, I want to to build another excess product. And I wanted to do IT myself. And I knew that the process of of like spending up a new product, IT was really time consuming.

And then you would have to spend up a few different products, try a few things to get IT, right? So I basically built this like template to how, like a santiago strike payments, like a user interface, the idea was I could spend something up really quickly, and then I could save me a lot of time. And then I just showed to this guy was at in front in the coworking space he was like, what is this or like, I was just like, like, crappy, think ve made life failure.

This is, this is amazing. People will pay for this and I was like, no, they they won't develop, build them themselves. And you know there's a couple of like people doing like they got like a ruby on rails of version, like i've never seen more in java script and he was like, you should go on the end, hackers on translate.

I was what the hackers about the this community of people that is building their own products, you know, there they're not really venture capital or just to try to make themselves. And I think this sounds like exactly like what I want to do. And then I think I went on, met a few posts and I talked about this wallet pit that I was making and in a sold to three copies, five andy hackers in the first month. And then I was like, okay.

very cool. Where is my cat of this revenue? This is such a cool story. So it's the beginning of IT. You light on your potentially your death bed, right? You don't even know what's going to happen to.

You are trying to think about all the different things in your life that like you wish you could have done. How long does that? Last because so i've had like a similar experience.

So I was like, I don't really know if i'm going to survive this and I was very striking at the time. Now I was like, well, like, what do I wanted do? How do I want to live the rest of my life? That wasn't that long.

go. I wasn't few months ago, and now I completely forgotten about IT. And i'm back into my sort of Normal habits, doing what I would do if i'd never had that experience.

What's been like for you? I mean, I had completely changed my life. So like, I mean IT change hard.

My approach to business change my whole lifestyle, like I spent the last few years spend most of my time travel or living in thailand, might completely change my diet, like cause that problems, a stomach pumps. I've stuck that for five years ago. So it's like IT IT, basically like IT changed every aspect of my life.

And it's still, I still affects me every day. Like sometimes if I find myself like slipped in this, I A negative thought pattern, I always bring myself back to like I was sick for like five years and was not a lot of pain I was foment every day. Um before this all I came there had in hospital I lost my like four top teeth. They basically just disintegrated ge because I was putting so much. So any time I D like there myself getting like a negative thought pattern I like to bring myself back to this time was like, think of all the suffering and like that night in hospital we just thought like everything was gone to end.

It's crazy that like a lot of these changes have lasted for you because they are such firm commitments like buying a one way to get to thailand, like that's a thing or you make that decision up front and you buy the ticket and you get on the plan and you fly away. You don't have to like keep making that decision again every single day, right? You're in thailand now.

You're living the slight style and it's like the decision has been made. This is other types of decisions that you make, like diet re decisions. You do have to make that decision every single day, like every single day, you have to decide what am I going to eat.

And those seem to be the hardest kinds of lifestyle changes to maintain. But I think in your sort of corner, you have like this obviously really horrible traumatic experience that you went through. I can kind of serve as a constant reminder.

And so even if like, I don't know if I want to eat like more plants again today, like that stake is pretty good. You can remember like, well, I don't also want to be like vomiting ing and in the hospital to be another thing for most people, the idea of travelling around the world trying to build the business sounds pretty stressful. It's expensive of the travel IT is is full of uncertainty to build a business. Neither let's suck with the finances of that. How did you how did you finance moving to thailand and traveling the world for years while trying to build an online business?

It's not actually that expensive to to live here like you can probably have like a very luxuries like style in thailand and for like fifty hundred dollars .

a month yeah I I D stories, people living in bali for like twenty thirty dollars a day and that's everything that's like housing, food, wifi, like transportation, which is absolutely not to medals that I ve lived in ten for six, co for ten years and seattle for another year. And it's like like twenty dollars hour to survive here. You like if you're .

trying to put strap in some Frances go, you either got like you're runway is gonna so short. Like if if you just move to say bali or thailand and vietnam, you going to extend that runway by like ten .

or x exactly. So I guess it's kind of an ideal stress less way to be in any actor if you can combine with being a digital. No mad.

But then there are other stresses of travel. So for example, I grew in atlantic. I blow there until I was eighteen.

Like most of my families in the southeast, all of my friends up to that point lived there. And then I lived in boston for five years. I don't want to accept for ten years.

And like every time i've moved, it's been kind of like a clean break with the social structures and the people that I have known there. You know, I still keep in touch and we will see each other every so often. But it's like I not to form like entirely new social connections.

And I imagine if you're being a digit no, matt, and travelling around, it's kind of the same thing where it's like, well, probably none of your family live in thailand, our south east dasa. So like how are you making friends? How are you like nurturing a social life for yourself when you are in a place .

where you're not connected in anybody? IT is difficult. The first year I was doing this, I was moving around a lot. So I spent like two months in bali and that was chAllenging. Like IT wasn't very productive because you've all out stress of like moving into you players, trying to find something to live china, find the places to eat, where is now? I tend to spend like most of my time in thailand.

So i'm probably more of the digital expert in a digital no about what you notice is like if you spend a lot of time in a couple of different places, you'll see the same people mission run that circuit. So making friends with local people who are her constant hair. So every time I come back, I have tie friends that that they're always here. What makes IT a lot easier because every time I do come back there is a different group people still a few experts later here long term um and I I find that environment is much more productive for building a business constantly moving around.

I done some traveling for like andy hackers meet ups for the examples of cape town a couple times, and a lot of me and I acis out there and toronto and UK and all over the states. And that is cool when you get like, familiar with the place and here's all the places to eat, here's the part of time that I want to stay in.

So when you come back the second at the third time, you're not going through this whole process of like you spending eight hours a day just trying to figure out I had to live. And you can just like immediately set up shop, and if you need to work on something, just like start working. So tell me about this process of coming up.

The idea for gravity. You mentioned that you sort of working on, I think, something to make yourself faster, to potentially just like help improve development speed. And then somebody told you, like, this can be something people would pay for.

Whenever I started this, I I had no vision for this pin like a business or any kind of commercial product. I just wanted to create a porter pit that made my own process of like chicken products faster because I just didn't want be waste a lot of time on every project like signal payment authentication or all the kind of boring stuff because next time, but I just want to like deploy the border plate and then spent like monday building like core M V P features.

So is like a classic case of like I was just china scratch my age and then I just had this certain, but its conversation with this guy who pointed out that yeah, people will pay for this and and my initial assessment was like, no developers will. They will spend the three months building the stuff themselves and and a lot of them day to be fair. But I think like you've got this like intersection of like developers and entrepreneurs on the hackers that they can see the value of yeah, could spend three months building this. But like it's it's a huge rest of my time. You know I should just buy IT this off the shelf and spend those three months building the the core features that the customer you are going to pay for.

And I think that that sort of fear you have a like no one is going to pay for this because they can build themselves as number one, super common. And number two, he pointed out like half true is true that nobody will pay for, but is true a lot of developers will will talk about the fact they are going to build themselves or already are building something like this for themselves. And it's easy to get discouraged by.

That is very easy. Like start building something and look out and see like A A bunch of other people build something like this. And even my ideal customer who hasn't started using this is just telling me they going to know, use, like build on their own.

Like why should I even do this at all, right? And IT turns out that most of the businesses and I talked that are successful persists despite that know like malay's is a successful hamper ker chain despite existing in the world where like people can make camp urging at home. And there were already other stores that were selling hamburgers. Ers and IT turns out that this kind of true on the web as well for a large radio products, at least any products like aren't social networks or sort of winner take all markets where network of facts to make IT so that there should really only be one winner.

When you applying that thinking to anything that doesn't make sense that you could say what people would just build their own email service provider payment process, smart people don't want they want to build as little as possible and then they want to buy as much as they can or or outsource as much that is possible.

Yeah exactly. And this is the the entire beauty of software is that essentially is extremely scalable. So IT might take me three months to build my own version of gravity, or IT might take you three months to build a version of gravity that I can use, but then I can pay you a relatively small amount for IT because you can just copy the solid, the software infinity, right?

So if you want to build, like, I don't know, a burger chain, you ve got to make a hamburger for every person you want to sell hamburger to. You build internet software as a business that you don't have to do that so you can sell IT for much cheaper. Then IT was for you to develop over three months, which means that like it's actually a steal for me to buy IT from you rather than spending those three months on IT.

And I think the essential sort of calculus of people are getting wrong when they're afraid that people will build things on their own is just not valuing they're time enough and are not other people's time enough and they're unrested bating how much people are willing to pay five or ten dollars a month. Okay OK like yeah fifteen dollars or thirty five dollars or whatever IT is rather than spending three months of my life building something that so what else could build this kind of a new banner and expressed if you're selling to developers, it's like you almost like a time and money is like someone and are changeable. A lot of people who don't have time will spend money to gain time.

And a lot of people who don't have money, you will want a lot of time to get more money. And like you're talking to developers like soften ers, like they have money for the most part, the very highly paid professionals. They're just short on time and so they will exchange that money for time. It's one of the things that I think a lot of people don't think about when the becoming founders.

So not only where your customers do this, a lot of founders will do this as well, where they are trying to work on a side project like I just time know i'm trying to build this thing on the side of my full time job and i've family and i've got respons ibi lies and friends and hobbies like how do I do this? And some of the most andy hackers I talked to rather than starting a business scratch, but i've got tens of thousands dollars. Why don't I just buy a business, a huge head start and work on that trade and a little bit of money to gain yourself a ton of time if time is the resource that you're short on?

I think a lot of people also underestimate like what exactly they need to do to even just build like the plumbing code for for access to like gravity has been fifteen thousand, and lines of code to just do the most basic stuff like log informs. But I know everyone think that I can Better talk informing like to hs, but when really actually like think about all the security features, the things to right, it's actually a huge part of quark.

And in the same thing of ten and the same thing, these are interface and always different like features that really care about or actually work with the customers don't care about are actually a huge amount work to do property. And then I think people really started and then realize, wow, yeah, this this is gonna take. This is not going to take me like is to do IT this is going to take like three months, right?

Because are so many other hats that you have to wear as a founder. And so if you can minimize the code part of things and you cannot actually spend time marketing and selling your APP and like that kind of stuff is super important. You clearly did that with gravity.

And looking back on your nd hack is product page, you've like a time line of all your different updates. If I go all the way back to like january twenty thousand thousand, you posted an update talking about how you just cross the thirty user mark today. You finally at thirty users.

And then people are commenting and asking, like how did you find? How did you find these first users? And you said of, you know fifty fifty N D hackers and S O at the beginning. Now it's more like forty percent at the hackers, forty percent at o and twenty percent ad campaigns that you are running.

So walking through like your your mindset back in the day, like how exactly where are you using andy hackers to find customers? How are you using seo to find customer? Is has you abusing advertising to find .

customers with the hackers? I I was basic product then I was looking for conversations where people were talking about player plates. The thing I was so surprised to learn is like if you go on to read IT and you look for these topics that you're like, hey, I am working on something that people just don't want to know.

But on ny hackers, people are people are open to. It's like upper ity trying to sell them m in a way. But I think because because you're going to get him something, something that they can see the about your state way, there are much more open to IT. And I I think there's like a good thing of like cattery in the andy community where people they want to buy each others products and they they want to help each other, right? So IT was a make sure of like just get involved in a lot of discussions, not just discussions about politer plates like I was.

I was making sure that gono in the actions, if you take ana answering a couple of questions about different things and then keeping the product page update a big jam, always post milestones and and posted milestone and twitter and promoting all those achievements with with seo is kind of a happy accident because nobody else was built in. No, J S S. Polar plate.

There were like a couple of competitors that were doing review on with stuff I wasn't contained. Them changes. So have to get up to, number one, relatively easy, or just picking the right keywords. The best tunnels for may have been hackers, S, C. O and also twitter now because I would be much more active on twitter in the last year, so I do get sales by twitter now.

Have you thought about hiring? We thought about like you bring people on to help you out is and only just paying contractors .

or instead to help you out. I've thought about IT like IT in my last company. Two confidence.

And we we have people, my issues, like I do like everything myself and i've got a diaper int. I'm extremely happy with by myself. And the freedom that comes with being a solo entrepreneurs is really apparent to me.

So I know like maybe six years ago, things are a bit different because we have physical office, everyone into the office every day. That's not going to be in the case. Like you know, a lot of companies are open to remote work, but still find that doctor is a sense of freedom with pain. So opener.

do you feel like in a way that you want to build a team with people around you eventually? Because, I mean, it's one thing to hide out of necessity and I should hire because IT was a good skill to have and that will help me grow. But it's another hire out of like desire, like this feeling like, like, you know what I would really like to build a team of people to work with me and to have a of a social lifetime built into my business. Is that to play IT?

Um I mean, some days I do think that would be nice to have a team of people would like you to vince my days with, but I know from experience and terrible and managing people, so I like so I just try and stay away from what I what I think is a good replace. Just it's just been active in the community and like making friends without our entrepreneurs and then just picked up on them and once and ideas around.

I think like whatever I on managing people, I get very stressed out and I I can don't like confrontation, don't like doing the issues. So just working on my own. I'm working with contractors because the dynamic is is always very different to the many levels.

That's actually a good point like being in any hacker. And one and one sense is a way to, I guess, create a business that allows you to surround yourself with people that you want. But in another sense is a way to create a business that prevention from having to deal the burden of being surrounded by people in capacity that you don't want. So then you can know, get your first interaction and make friends elsewhere.

Yeah and I think like because i've done both neither. I'm like super happy with gravity because i'm asleep backwards on the product. Where is my last business? I started working on the product and then I just on spread right now. I I feel like if I say come back to doing what I love, which is like sitting thinking about division for the product and then execute the development, the design. And I also enjoyed, like some of the marketing as well.

And you also had a stent, you know, before you did any of this basically working in venture capital, which I think is ironic because you are know how building a boot draft in the start up, if you ever intend, ted, to quote and quote, go big to raise a bunch of money and try to see if you take gravity to like a venture scale rather than the hack scale.

No, I like because i've had that experience and not IT like at at some point in the future, and I may start something else and I may raise money and I may try and go back with IT. But for the experience that they that experienced, like go back, go like that, what stress me, I felt they like I never really had a sense of satisfaction when my work IT was always like to get a shot for this milestone.

And then when you achieve IT in the next petter milestone, comes along with what i'm enjoying nice, I deep acted, i'm doing on the product, thinking about other products that I can add other things um very like involved in the work or as I found a Better capital is just like just move just everything is move in. So far I didn't really enjoy IT, but who knows that maybe after this experience, I want to do IT again. I ll do IT differently.

It's pretty wise to be able to look at what you were doing. And because that, I mean, there's like two two things that get kind of in one of them is like every time we hit a mile time, we got to go bigger and go harder, and that's not very satisfying. But then the other part of IT that I think is very traced to lot of people is like, you know, i'm doing this huge thing and sending this huge modicum, ambitions, goals.

And there's something that satisfying about that and to not get so caught up and that latter part, which is kind of like excEllent validation. You know, people who praise me for achieving this huge go and to allow you up to look at like kind of like the day to day, which is like, I don't like the feeling of always having some bigger goal that I always have to hit and never been able to be satisfied. I think very wise.

And I like that having this experience in VC sort of catapulted you end to being an ni hacker before you even knew an ni hackers was very cool. Well, what's your goal with gravity? You don't clearly want to build a big team.

You don't want to raise venture capital, sort of crank out code and building features. And working in america, grow the public. What kind of life do you in vision for yourself?

I'm pretty happy with the life that I have right now because, you know, maybe the travel, let anywhere I want, do whatever I want, have no. I have a lot of freedom with the business. I can choose when I want to work, where I want to work.

I'm very happy with what i'm working on. I suppose that the chAllenges of for mayor like or how do I grow the business. So i'm looking at like other products.

So I does the product file up, which is like a automated user testing products. So like my strategy is to build more of these. Like satellite products are on demand. Oil pits provide other tools for people to solve different problems because testing is another thing that I find like the hackers like they just don't want to spend the time writing tests or setting up up tests because it's always as low down on the priority list. So on building fire lab so that they can just like they can just set up the test in uprisen or and like a couple of minutes and then forget about IT and then the test will just like tender run.

I like the idea that you set up your life in such a way where you can like keep building new things like I talk to um saw the funda company to feed earlier this year. And v is like video editing software.

But then you look like the other apps they've like boat or that they're building and it's like they're doing media recording software and podcast recording software and a screen recorder and a web cam recorder and like all sorts of different tools and things like for adding effective videos aren't necessarily part of the core product. But it's kind of fun to work on because it's like they've created a business. We don't have to just work on one thing and only one thing for their of their life.

And like, I have the same thing with andy hackers. What's I go? I can build a job board or cofounder ating tool or something else. You ve got the same thing with what you're working on. So is not only all the freedom that you mentioned in the lack of stress, but like the infinite, their ability to keep building and working what you're doing and know that all kind of contribute to the same thing. Even there are quite a lot with this journey.

I've been started off in the sort of a scary, traumatic place, but now you've gone to this, the point where you have all these great benefits and result of a self sufficient project building machine, what do you think other and directors can take away from your journey? A lot of people trying to get toward you are that you have no idea what to work on or maybe we're working on something and not really seeing very much attraction. What advice would you have for them?

The mistake I always used to make was the kind of classic like you, china find this, that moment of divine inspiration for an idea to work on and then go on select. And I and i've done this even specially, they're on sign like month in the, and something I know with gravity. And I just kind of have hazarded stumbles across this idea, but I solving my own problem.

But now I have a very structured approach to think so. I have just read all of its book audience first, which which is awesome. Unlike i'm really, really in this processes like finding the audience and then trying to find the the problems.

And I I did experiment with some stuff a few years ago. I think before I built gravity, I was just I was looking for something to build. And I was going on the reddit and I was just going to round and sub and asking people what the problems were.

So I find I was in like a like a separate for firefighters, asking them like what problems you have and never like actually managing our. I is IT takes hours every day and it's all the on paper. And I was like, this is, this is process product. I like all of the was a software product that just did IT all for a year or like that, amazing, with no budget.

just like.

okay. But I think just that process of I just gone into communities talking to people, even talking to people that you would never Normally talk to like like firefight, and just trying to find out war problems. They however, I think what you find the the problem is painful.

The customer has enough money to to pay your reasonable fee for IT. They want to say the rest is easy, but it's the rest tends to fall in the place because I ve felt like time products in my career and like eighty percent of them have failed. But the the thing that i've noticed about the that successful, they got traction early on. Um you know there was a very clear value proposition and people prepare to part with cash very quickly. So I think just get to the point for people, give you some money as early as possible once you figured that part out and you you know you solve A A valuable problem, rest tends to fall in the place much easier.

Yeah, I love that because that's like the core thing I need to get right and you get everything else right. You get like an amazing logo and just have like the best marketing strategy in the world and really well designed website and like a bullet proof product that's been like tested and coded perfectly well.

But like you don't have a customer who has got a burning problem and the'd have the money to pay you to solve IT, then like nothing's going to work. And if you do have that, somehow you have everything else is broken. Your business will make money and like people say yes and you ask them you to buy your thing. So I think that's the best way to start. And it's not surprising to me that you set up selling tools to developers, especially in the hackers who are motivated to buy something because they understand how buying your tool will save them time and helps them make money on the journey to make their own and hacking business.

Yeah and what you said, but the opposite true is like whenever like the first first gravity was was terrible. They didn't have any other features that I has night. The code was a lot of IT was rushed to just get you out there and test IT of bizarre developers taking care like and like. The code that worked in IT was IT was robust IT just wasn't as elegant as IT is now. And I was like, oh no, they're onna be put off but they weren't, you know, they were just like, this solves the problem out, tidy to code up myself and they in adventist, like once I get them but attraction, I fixed all those problems and IT just them a after that and there's .

like this concept of the early a doctor like the visionaries like these are the people, the customers, who are just so ambitious that they can look at a pile of trash and figure, how can I use this to get ahead of everybody else? Or they can look at a brand new APP. They can look at gravity, when is like it's earliest alpha version, and that barely works.

And no one else is using this. Like, i'm willing to deal with the refugees to get ahead. And if you can find those people, you don't have to make something that super polis or super nice. You can do that later and focus like these visionary customers first. Listen, kyo, I think your journalist inspiring one. I love talking any hackers like you who essentially you're just living the dream and not making a big deal out of IT know you're not trying to be on the front page of tech runge tell everybody what's going on and just started traveling the world and building cool stuff hopefully can check in with you again on the show another few years or months and see where you're at but in the meantime, thanks again for coming on the show and can you tell listeners where they can go to find out more about what you working on?

Thank you very much for having me like anyone wants to find out more most active on twitter. So my uther name is just my full name, calle G A W L Y. Um if you like to find out more about gravity, it's use gravity dog up. I also have a blogger on there, or I do I do mostly talk about building size products.

cool. Thanks so much.

kyle.