#244 – Building Gradually to Grow Suddenly with Shahed Khan of Hyper
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What's up, everybody? This is courtlandt from india hacker's to com, and you're listening to the ni hacker's podcast. More people than ever are building cool stuff online and making a lot of money in the process.

And on this show, I sit down with these andy hackers to discuss the idea that s the opportunities and the strategies they are taking advantage of so the rest of us can do the same. I'm here with chat kn, the cofounder of loom and prox shah doesn't good. Thanks for having thanks. Thanks for comment. So you are working on pro log right now, which is sort of like how do you describe like a parent company, holding company?

Yeah yeah prologue is a holding company of both media and tech brands and are starting brands are hyper in early stage accelerator as well as product on the home. Have a lot of the early beginnings for right, some of the most promising companies of our of our time.

Yeah, I think everybody listening will know what product is, is kind of the best place. Launcher started up. Probably half the people listening have launched.

They started up ARM product times where went well and that I ve done, I think, three different loches on product times. But not anyone know what hyper is. How would you describe hyper?

Hyper is a early stage accelerator. We call IT a founder program. It's a sixty million dollar fund and we are typical offering is three hundred k for five percent of any start up that goes through a program. And it's a very hands on four week process with our companies and it's it's completely remote. So we invest primarily early but occasionally will do an investment into an existing round of a company.

So is IT safe to say that hyperbolic? It's almost like a competitor. Why computor or a way, the fact that you have these cohorts, the fact that are investing things at three hundred thousand dollars or five percent of the company and similar is terms and then everybody goes through this process together and they're ort of providing these these benefits are helping with distribution, presumably through product on and other means helping with product of recruiting. Is that a fair comparison? So you really excited of like a new y commentor.

the way i'll say it's Y C has definitely paved the way for a silk valley to get in early in the company, provide uh support, provided torch from people who have built stuff in the past and create really this new model that never really existed for Y C has also been around for, I think, twelve over fifteen years now. So that model has proven to work.

And I think that the big differentiation here is hyper has this network of mentors and investors and are general founder community that a lot of companies uh, tend to work very hands on very closely with. So that's one specific angle. And the separate angle is the distribution element. So like as company start to you know either become launch ready or you know have already launched the product, you want to build brain awareness. That's where hyper comes in and kind of helps them get access to that distribution.

cool. So we're going to talk a lot about this. When I think about like the back to how do you how do you raise a sixty million dollar fund? How do you determine which starts to invest in? But I think first, what I know like more about you because is the first time that we've met, and I have no idea like how somebody even ends up in the position that you are in.

And so I understand you have like kind of a long history in the start up community. And IT begins, presumably with this start to be created. I think when you you're a teenager, I an article and meet sixteen year old shaheen on is a CEO and a via task. I don't have very people on the podcast who started to started up at sixteen. So what was via task and what was going on in your life that you decided to start to start as a teenager .

yeah you know it's all of those things when you look back on your past and your like man, I was like a very embarrassing time of my life again like I was sixteen and twenty six now almost over a decade ago um yeah vite task was is the concept stem from me being a true six senior old, right? I hadn't got in my drivers permit yet, so I couldn't really drive anywhere.

And I asked myself the question, as most sixteen year old probably do, which is I just got back home from school and I was craving mcDonalds, but mcDonald was probably two one half miles away from my house. And there is no way I was going to walk to mcDonald's. There is no way I was going to bike to mcDonald's.

Just have mcDonald's. I was like, what if there was an APP at the time? Uh, this is one like, you know social uh, mobile was really starting to uh explore.

This was like twenty and eleven, uh, twenty twelve and ah I was like, what there is a mobile APP that allowed people to post their errands and people within their community, within their neighborhood would bid on these projects, these microtactile and complete these task. So whether is mowing someone's long shovellin, someones strive way taking up, you know, dry cleaning from the dry cleaners, right? And the whole concept was called the neighbors. Helping neighbors was like the tag line of the business.

right? But let's step back a second because I mean, you're sixteen like most sixteen year olds that like I went mcDonalds and it's too far away and I can try they just don't don't need mcDonald. They don't say like let me start something in the vain of task, grab in our airbnb and create a local network of fex drive and start up what was going on in your head that was even an option for you. Who are your influences with reading started books? Like how does the sixteen i'd come to that conclusion that that's .

I going to spend your time. I remember a bit vagina. I was in my library at school. I was in high school at the time, probably towards the end of my freshman year, begin of myself or year. And I was in the library during study hall, and I opened up tech lunch, and I saw the first thing was that popped up with Peter. Till had announced this new program called twenty under twenty, which has since been rebranded to the till fellowship.

And as you know, a early soft ware teachers are starting to tell you about college and how like you have to start thinking about college and admissions and start thinking through what you wanted do for the rest of your life over like the next six months. And if you haven't made the decision, then your kind of behind. And I always knew that like i'm just a really bad student.

So like the way i've learned and have learned a lot in my life to this day is just by doing and fAiling and trying to be more deliberate about how I fail. And I just knew that I was always fascinated by business and technology OK, and that's why I was like reading tech lunch. But yeah, I mean, IT all stamped from that moment where IT was kind of like this.

aha. The founder, paypal first investment facebook was giving students one hundred thousand dollars to drop out of what he quoted stop out of college, which is a software version of dropping out of college. And IT just spoke to my soul, and I was like, I have to, like, apply to this.

I applied, didn't even make a passing interviews. They're like, sorry, this isn't a fit for you. But then I applied again the second year, made IT to interviews, but didn't get IT. But I think that was all the conviction I really needed to tell myself. This is the path I want to go down in life. This is like something that i'm interested about and I want to poll thread bit that ultimately LED to like you know me really thinking about and surrounding myself around a lot of technology and really learning about how startups worked. And that's what LED to be a task.

So when you apply the opl ship to apply, like with the start up in mind, you say, like I got this APP via task, it's going to be huge like like me into the the o file, I want to go to college. I want to come be a start founder or you just applies an .

individual a little bit so you applies an individual.

And as part of your application, you they ask you what is the thing that you want to be working on? Like how are you going to be spending the money? Is an early on, he is very much research based, and I was very inviting for people who were trying to build, like waterworks and you know, parts of africa, to finding aging cures and like all of these, like really hard science, really a difficult project that actually require a lot more money than just one hundred thousand dollars than an eighteen year old kid.

But IT wasn't really about that. I was about how far can this eighteen, nineteen year old could take one hundred thousand dollars into the research. And then eventually, you know, as the these cohort became more popular, and as the program became more popular, I believe the program shifted a bit more to let's start funding founders who already have a startup and the start of is ready, you know doing relatively well.

Ah I think there was like a twitter thread out there somewhere where people dissected the till felsher program and looked at all of the people who have gone through the program that kind of went off to do really big things dolen field from fig ma vital bearing who started theory um and there was like a number maybe a dozen plus who have started you know like multi accords. So going back to initial question, you know you can apply an individual at the time back in twenty eleven with no idea. Now it's very much gear towards ds people who already have an existing business. And I applied with vea task at the time, did like the full business model run down, and how I felt like I was going to start a new vail and oil, which is where I lived at the time, and then expand into metropolitan of chicago, and then expand into surrounding cities, and then kind of expand across the us. And eventually the world .

and IT didn't work out. Obviously, there's no via task anymore. What some of the lessons that you learned like this is your first like started failures as a teenager. What did you come away? Come away thinking?

Yeah, I mean, he was it's it's funny, right? IT IT was a very expensive way to learn that I should probably just walk the two enough miles to get my mcDonald d um honestly, I think working on via task and like building the network of people that I started meeting on mine. I met josh buckley, who's now my co founder at prologue and at hyper.

I knew about him at the time when he was starting mino monster s so there like this kind, there's like this classic, you know, from fifteen, sixteen till like twenty, twenty one year old who all kind of knew of each other like this, like facebook group that I was part of. And for me, you are having traditional indian box stani parents, immigrant parents who just saw, you know, one path of life watches. You know, you get good grade, you get to a good college, and you.

Get into a good career. This, whatever I was doing was very foreign to that. So a couple of lessons that I learned coming out of via task goes, you know, if I could sell my parents on me not going to college, I can sell anyone. And that I knew technology was the sector that I wanted to go down, because i've just always been surrounded and around technology, specifically ters throughout, you know, like most of my analysis till now.

And here you are ready for, I guess, round to. And you eventually started another company that probably another people from know you with, called loom L O O M dot com. So a loom is way to record sort of quick videos of your screen, and also like your cameras. So this a sort of video of you, while your screen recording, you could share with other people. And loomis humongous know you guys are revenue numbers or any of either measure of like looms.

We don't share revenue numbers. We just publicly there is an article I went out on business and Better today, which was an interview with my cofounder, va, that talks about the journey from from zero to fourteen million users world wide and then also during the pandemic like how loom had massive till wins. But yeah I mean, the company has definitely scaled from nothing to now a lot of people rely on IT to get some of their best work done.

IT. Yeah, as huge, forty million users, look at your website, two hundred thousand companies. Why is loom so popular? How did you make an apt? Is this successful?

So kind of the back story, everything that LED up to loom, I worked out going to called back plane as an, in turn, doing design work.

And then my now cofounder, and i'm bringing, i'm giving this context because a lot of founders asked me, like, k, how do you meet your co founders? How do I find a cofounder for my company? And the way I found both mice founders, one I worked with, and then he became, like at front of mine, we entered a three mates in cemetery, and then I went to, we believe I was a product designer for about a year.

And then my A D H D, you know, and excitement got really crazy. I was like, I want to go into venture. I want to break into venture.

And I went and worked at up from ventures down in L. A. So I grab, packed as much stuff as I put in a suitcase, move down to L.

A. And crashed on the couch of my now cow CEO at loom. What ended up being like, crash on his couch for two weeks, ultimately like to me moving into his second bedroom in his apartment.

And know the three of us became really good friends and decided we wanted to build something. Didn't really know what I was gonna be, but we just need that. We all had the skill, said I was designed, joe is product and when I was engineering.

And we're like, perfect, you know, combination. So let's go off and let's let's build stuff for fun. And I remember we got on a skype call. We decided to just list a bunch of ideas that we have on a White board. And I think we came up with six, seven different ideas.

The first one was um my idea I rode down, which was a user testing platform but with product experts and this was something that I was saying when I was a product designer was sometimes I just want design feedback of product feedback from people who have built and skilled products before and I willing to pay for IT and I at the time, I did see those a large enough market for us to build within. The second idea was jose idea, which was, you know there's a lot of access food that goes uh to waste. How do we build a at the time? The way we're think of about IT was like the imperfect produce for restaurants.

So we just went down the list. We're like, let us go at the first idea. And we started building what was initially called open test.

Later becomes room. Open test goes through two large pivots over the course of nine months before we eventually landed on loom. And I think that part gets you know kind of overshadowed by all of the success room has had in the last couple of years.

But that was like some of the most difficult, painful period of probably juvenile. And my life of the twenty six years i've been on this planet, and that was mainly because we we started the company with our our savings. And we're like, I was coming out of the world adventure.

I was promised that a lot of people that I know I was cold investing worth at the time would want to back loom, blind, folded, tell me what you want to do. Will back you guys was kind of like the promise I was coming out of IT with. And then as we started to find product market fit, as we started to ask people to use our product, we're building the product um and really, really, you know making sure we are aware of how much burn were spending all of this to be said.

We didn't really have the success that a lot of people saw we did later on in in the years to come. Our first investment was a ten thousand dollar loan that one of joe friends gave us. And now just so we could make rent the following months. And this was like into months nine.

Months ten, we had initially pivoted into like an inner calm for user testing from the marketplace idea, and then from inner com, the user, the intercom of user, testing that ultimately, after maybe one hundred or two hundred emails, we had sent to various people begging them to use our product. Harvard research la. Picked them up. They ran a test on a specific prompt with their researchers, and someone from the research lab use the same extension that we had built for the testers to record a summary of the six different videos that they had just watched. O so now this person is using IT as like a .

generalize communication tool that's expected. Okay.

that's cool. Not at. And I was kind of like, you know, last was maybe like two in the morning and we were like, holy crap like this seems this is like, you know, this this might be a clear direction into what we should be doing or probably like a false positive, and we shall just continue staying. Course.

it's a big decision to make because it's like, can you stay in the course? You have all these plans of all this money in time and energy invested going in one direction. Someone does something unexpected, but it's kind like, okay, who cares? You will do unexpected things all the time like that could invention you to just completely turn the business around to be something totally different.

totally. And we were hit with this fork where, you know, we could take a help, mary, and just pave IT into this new direction and hope that, you know, more than one person decide that this is something they want to use. Or, you know, we feel like we're hitting the right direction.

People are starting to finally use our product and we should just build out what we're curling building. So we decided to do the hill marry and basically ripped the extension out of the product and rebranded IT from open test to open vid. And through a landing page together, you could go back on architect and look at open test stock co.

And IT looks really ugly. So that's entirely on me. I was the day I was the time and open vid launched on product time, june sixteen of two thousand and sixteen. And within twenty four hours, we got three thousand people to download our extension and start using IT.

And by the end of the week, I think we had maybe five or six thousand people who had installed the APP and sold the chrome extension to use that for a variety of things. They think that when we finally, like, you know, took a deep president, like, okay, people are finally using this new thing. And now we need to go like a raise capital.

Because in ten thousand alone, we took from joe friend is now coming to an end. So I remember this very vividly. We had two different decks.

One deck was promoting the original idea, open test. The second deck was promoting open feed, this new concept that we now finally had users for, and where A B testing our pitch. And I remember our first investment was from a patent lawyer who rented my room on L, B, N, B.

I. And I told him this is what we were building. So he, the first investment was actually five grand, and then he doubled down, put in another five grain.

And in the second invest came in at twenty five thousand. Third investor came in at fifty thousand. And finally, our fourth invest LED or precede round and gave us two hundred thousand dollars. That was fifty seventy fund.

Yeah yeah. So I want to, I want to move on. We can talk about loom for probably two hours. But yeah, before we do, is there like like a single biggest reason or decision or process that you guys had a limit, you would say, accounts for the fact that has been able to grow so large because an ny hackers that we I really talk to people who built products of forty million users, like that's a that is just a tremendous amount of reject. What what is IT about lime, as the market just the right size was at the right potter because of the right time. Like what do you to be most of looms successful?

Yeah, the market really, really wasn't ripe for what we are building. I'd say up until maybe twenty eighteen. So from twenty six and twenty eighteen, we're just getting these like early adopters Prices from different companies, different different org sizes who are like, oh, you know, I can record a video walking through my presentation or I can record you know if I work on the support team, I can record a quick like how to on how to like you downgrade your billing plan. So and in on the remote side, the only company that was truly remote that really publicized IT was in vision at the time. But there wasn't IT wasn't really massive like remote work was still a benefit that you'd provided as part of like.

So you are like way earlier than all the stuff you earlier than the remote work trend really getting in on you are earlier than obviously the pandemic. And I guess by the time those things did start to get bigger, you already there. Uh.

yeah, I would say those those trends and are becoming tie and four look IT wasn't necessary. The reason why we built.

So that brings us to today where you are running pillock e, which has like sort of two products right now, product hunt, hyper and hyper. Is termine listeners going to have a yc competition for lack of a Better word. And I ve have so many questions about this because I think fun raising and investing. It's not something exported on on the show. But it's super interesting and it's becoming a thing that more and more ni hackers and early age founders are considering even if they don't live in silicon valley.

And so one of the things that comes to mind is like this business of investing in startups, essentially that the number one value add is like money, right at any investors going to put money into your start of, like that's the number one thing who found you get anything that they will probably take and mony's very it's a commodity, right? Like somebody a dollar build from one investor are kind of the same as deliver another investor. So how do you stand out, you know, how do you differentiate yourself when essentially the number one thing that you offer a is an investor and is true for every VC for him and every fund is kind of someone to the the thing that every everybody .

else offers yeah it's it's a great question. And to give you context, when I was leaving luma is like a thought there was a lot of a lot of my investor friends were like you should go and raise your own funder. You should know, think about joining a beautiful e fund.

And I told myself I couldn't really start a venture firm if there wasn't something that was very novel about what I was providing to founders, because that was what ultimately let you know job. And I to picking our current investors that was, you know like what is this person providing that the other people on our captain cannot. So and it's really it's it's actually incredibly hard to differentiate as an investor.

Just give in how about ant capital has become last couple years? And to give you an idea, in twenty, twenty one, over six and twenty one billion dollars where investors started globally, and that was like an all time record. But the one thing that is kind of always been limited has been like attention.

So like attention has always been scarce and it's been harder than ever for start up a breakthrough and reach people that actually matter for their growth. What once was probably breaking news or a pivotal moment for a company is now a drop in the bucket with all the financing. And you know p ordos are going out there and all the, you know the twitter thread that that have kind of been published ever sense again, like another tell when the prologue, specifically hyper ers going through is the major decentish zone of silicon valley.

So this shift basically means companies can be formed anywhere. And increasingly, you know, they are actually based outside of the U. S. And in fact, like another staggering fact that I learned uh, a few months ago was out of the nine hundred uniform that exist today, nearly fifty percent of them came out of the U. S or outside of the USA.

And when you look at that from a purely statistic perspective, you have to realize that what companies need the most, regardless of if the proceed company all need to serious a series b and beyond, are three things, product distribution and recruiting. So we're basically aligning hyper to provide value across the three buckets for the companies are common. So hyper is incredibly like high quality that the founders that come in are generally very driven first time founders or proven second time founders. So it's really helping companies stage up from where they were when they joined.

That make sense so that I think answers a lot of the questions about why would I found her choose hyper at that? Like what attracts them to you? But then you ve got the whole other side of the equation, which is like, how do you do a good job as an investor like you think of about the business of investment, especially in startups like it's hard it's hard to pick.

Winter is hard to determine the us. And to some degree, even if you're doing IT for six months or a year, you might not even know if you're doing a good job. And so how do you look at because IT takes a while over the companies to grow and scale and turn into what the gun turn into, like lum itself in the first few months, like somebody looked at that have been like, this is going nowhere.

So how do you like how do you see that side of things? So somebody wants to invest in services. How do you pick the winners and how do you pass on? Those aren't necessarily going to be winners, even if they might look like IT in the early.

It's it's a great question. And I I would say as someone who's relatively new to investing and still learning a lot of this, however, I I would say i've learned I picked up on a couple of key things that matter a lot. You want to generally find founders who will succeed.

We're godless of your help like they're determined enough. They're selfish enough in their own right to build something that will ideally help you if, depending on the company, hundreds of thousands to millions of people globally. And you know, venture is an accelerant of the startups.

Uh if you provide the right people with the right capital and the right access, uh if you can provide them with the right tools that they need at the right time, that basis is going to help propel them kind of like help all the learning that they would have like a year, two years. Now you kind of want to condense that in the first couple of months. And if you could do that really well, those companies are going to succeed much faster and Better than then if they were, you know not raising venture capital.

So I think there are certain businesses kind of aligned perfectly for the way venture works as a business model. And there are all a lot of businesses that you know don't really require a venture. But for those that do, you kind of generalists just want to find founders who can do well regardless if they work with you or they don't.

Yeah okay. That makes a lot of sense. I think one of the things are most serious about is just like finding these founders because super competitive, like you are out there trying to find them because these people are out there, people who are very determined who are going to succeed without to you.

But like by the time you find them, they might have already been snapped up, right? Somebody might have already invest in them and said, it's so like what do you guys do to try to like to find them? You use product unit, you know, is sort of like a an early sort of signals to who you might want to contact. And investment are the other means that used to find founders.

Proxy is grade for in bond deal flow from loon launching in the twenty sixteen to notion and air table and breaks. And you know a number of other companies inception .

come to product with you, you very much at all.

yeah. And I think you know wild products will you know become a great channel dual flow for hyper. I think the other thing to also remember is hyper will only be as good as the programming is offering for founder.

So if we really wanted to you see the company before they got any type of funding from anyone, we have to make sure that people under founder specifically understand what we're offering and how is valuable to them. For example, you know, there is a great community on the hackers and a lot of people who are probably starting companies in that community. And our brand and hyper is completely encompass around like running very intimate cohorts with select companies about four times year. And we want to be pretty hands on with company and that we work with and make sure that each company gets the attention that IT deserves as opposed of funding, you know one hundred, two hundred companies.

A O yeah, I like the idea of running four batches a year because it's just more, more iterations through the loop, which means more they get opportunities for you to like, learn from mistakes to do a Better next time. This time a year two, from now, you would ve had four, eight batches to learn from.

And you also get sort of more shots on goal in terms of word of mouth, because I think being a founder of you want to consider going through a programme like this. Often IT comes from like friends who been through that. Here's why this was awesome.

Here's why like to Y, C. Here's why light type, or who said I didn't like and so the process assumed takes a while to get something like this spinning and like up off the ground. Like with wide commentor in particular know I looked like a lot of the reasons why what they've done has worked ed so well.

Part of IT has been like these stories that have come out of IT, right? So like everybody knows that airbnb came out of vaccinator, dr. Box came out of vaccinator.

That stripes was like funded by the Y. C. founders. And so I think once those stories succeed, that's not much even than like a school like harvard or something where you see people who are successful who been through that process and then you think, oh, I want to go through that process too, so I can be like that. And so in a sense, that you guys are working on the phase where you're trying to create these stories, these awesome story, people who have gone through hyper and created something successful and inspiring.

I think often times founders underestimate how difficult IT is to build a really good brand. I took a loom three and A A half years for people to start like picking up on what loom actually was. Now you know it's it's kind of broadly known, but uh, that was you know three and half years of like getting to the point where people have heard of the one or have seen a loon video and then the you know following two and half years was just like accelerating that through different channels were only at month, I think months eight or months nine at hyper. But it's still very early.

And I think are as long as we do our job right and you know, do right by our filters, it'll naturally have this like network effect where the more founders that come into hyper and the hyper community, uh, the more you know referrals will get through the hyper community for other founders that should participate. And those actually tend to be the best referral. I believe there is like a stat around you know A A large majority of the sqa scout investments came from referrals of existing founders.

So that was no that was always a fascinating concept to me. And you know there is anyone in the community, anyone listen to this pod who is interested in breaking into investing or you know is a scouts of a different venture fund. It's really you know some of the best deal flow comes from being a founder because you get to like share like share notes and share learnings. And also be vulnerable you know it's like, hey, I have to like fire my cofounder and the other person like actually you should talk to this person that actually had to go through something similarly. So just create this like a hear and trust .

yeah and super helper to go through like a sort of a batch of founders and taught lots people. I know a of Y, C founders who would invest each other companies five, six years ago. I mean, josh butter to the same thing.

I invested in the Y, C. Founders, and they turned out really well. Maybe to close that here, what's your advice for for founders who are getting started? Most of the people who are sing to the show are like, you know, they are considering but strapping or funny.

And in the very early stages, some might be considering raising money, but it's always traditionally been kind of a thing that you have to live in the look valley to do. And that's been changing, especially with the last couple of years. How should founders think about going about starting and started there? So many different pieces of advice. There are many different ways to start what your so what shaheed cons take on, what it's like to be a successful foundation and how to get started.

There isn't one size fits all answer. I think it's more about if building you start up while you're working a full time job works for you. great.

You know i've there have been a number of people have been successful that way um to get to you know either some conviction level for them to leave their job. Some people leave you know off the gate before they even have an idea just so we can start expLoring. So IT works, you know, in many different ways.

But I think some of the things that have been proven Better than before is you're exactly right. You know, second valley is decentralizing, so you can start a business from anywhere as long as you know you're on the hackers, your own products and you are kind of engaging with the community, you're putting yourself out there. You generally have a low, low no ego uh, when he comes to getting feedback and getting advice from people um and when they start playing with the product.

I I remember listening to this on a gary v podcast and I think it's it's true more than never. I don't know if you've heard the quote. You know there's two ways to build the tallest building in the city.

You can either build the tallest building in the city or you could spend your time breaking. Everyone else is down. So I think and that's really important peace rate. And it's it's a similar to the feedback of so many people try to like over engineer their idea or their market or they are like solution. And it's like just go in and start building.

And I can like it's proof that if you go on archive at or and look at the very early visuals of what loop look like, IT looked like someone. IT looked and looked hideous. And that probably safest word I can use to described IT.

And I was in one of who designed IT, right? So it's like I just go out there, puts something out, put something in the hands of people who could use your product and just learn and just keep your iteration cycles fast. Really lean into first principles of thinking, constantly ask yourself, what are the things that you know matter most right now? Why am I building what i'm building? And if you continue doing that, I think slowly just inject your way. It's the code in you thought process of like things just happen gradually and then IT happened. That very true about how long was able to scale into word is today.

Yeah, I love that point. And I think to give things sort of a chance to eventually start building up, suddenly yai had started. And it's so easy, at least half the founders, I talk to their biggest problems that they're stuck in this analysis mode.

They're thinking about all the different possibilities and overanalyzed to some degree where have a much higher chance of successive that if they do what you're doing or what you're suggesting, just get started quickly. Don't worry too much. But the first version is perfect. Or if is exactly what you want to build IT, it's gonna this huge thing because you learnt so much, I think just from trying and doing like you never would, you never would have known about this sort of video sharing application if you hadn't actually tried to sell this other APP that wasn't that good to customers. And so I love this advice for listening in your stuck just pick something in and get started working on IT and .

you learn as you exactly that's honest.

the best way so you d can't thank so much for are coming onto the indian podcast. Do you want to let listeners know where they can go to learn more about what's rop to at hyper .

proton prologue in general? Yeah I most active on twitter. Uh you can you know follow me at underscore SHE he kay, I often talk about you know the learnings and anything that were announced on the hyper side on the prolog side. So and I have to share a number of founder al lessons along the way. Thanks again to thank you.