Marina was inspired during a shroom trip and realized the lyrics she wrote didn't fit into a pop song structure but could work as poems. This discovery led her to write daily over the summer, exploring themes more deeply than she could in songs.
In 2022, Marina had moved to LA permanently two years prior, was single, and adjusting to the isolation of a new city. She explored themes of loneliness and self-discovery, magnified by LA's size and her personality.
Marina found that poetry allowed her to explore a wider variety of subjects and be more literal, without the commercial constraints of pop songs. She also enjoyed the freedom to expand on topics she had previously touched on in her music.
Marina's poetry delves into personal themes like loneliness, body image, disordered eating, male validation, and the struggle of succeeding in LA. She also writes about her fear of being happy and the comfort she found in sadness.
Marina believes that her experiences, including sadness, were the impetus for her becoming an artist. However, she also admires artists who don't work from a place of sadness and thinks happiness and emotional stability can coexist with artistic expression.
Marina was inspired by her fear of the sea and a new perspective on nature, viewing it as an entity more knowledgeable than humans. She juxtaposes the timelessness of nature with man-made structures, questioning humanity's perceived superiority.
Marina's poetry reflects her ongoing journey to understand and overcome patterns of seeking validation in relationships. Moving to LA and entering the dating world via apps brought up pre-existing issues, which she is gradually working through.
Marina acknowledges that therapy helped her process her experiences, which in turn informed her poetry. She sees writing as therapeutic in that it forces her to confront and acknowledge her feelings, even if it's not a substitute for therapy.
Marina feels the pressure of breaking the
Marina cites getting signed as the most pivotal moment, which radically changed her life mentally and otherwise. However, she feels her career has been a gradual process without a single
Marina understands that her success can trigger feelings of envy or existential crisis in those close to her, especially former partners. She empathizes with their reactions, as achieving success in the music industry is rare and often unexpected.
Marina would advise her younger self to be more careful about the people she surrounds herself with, especially her team. She emphasizes the importance of choosing people who genuinely care about her and can enrich her life.
Marina initially wrote about her struggles selfishly, as she needed to express herself. However, she is glad she did, as it adds to the public conversation about body image and may help fans who are struggling with similar issues.
Marina has chosen to remain child-free after deep reflection over three years. She respects those who choose to become parents but felt a societal pressure to conform. Once she accepted her decision, her life improved significantly.
Marina hopes to transition from girlhood to womanhood in her artistry, embracing her personal sense of power and authenticity. She doesn't have long-term plans but is enjoying the creative process of her next album, which explores these themes.
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Whether you're looking to sell your car right now or just whenever feels right, go to Carvana.com and sell your car the convenient way. Terms and conditions apply. Welcome to Intelligence Squared, where great minds meet. I'm producer Leila Ismail. For the next few episodes on the podcast, we'll be looking back at the year 2024. The team at Intelligence Squared has selected 12 standout conversations from the year to share with you.
Our second pick of the year is unreleased audio of an event we staged with singer-songwriter Marina Diamandis, or you might know her by her stage name, Marina. She was live on stage to talk about her debut poetry collection, Eat the World. Joining her to discuss it was writer Sean Fay. Hi. Hi, welcome. Marina has only been in the UK a couple of days, back in the UK, and you're saying you're...
coping well with the jet lag, so hopefully... I'm feeling very alive right now, so... I'm feeling good. We're going to jump straight in to talk about this poetry collection. You know, you've been writing songs that we've been listening to for like, I mean, almost two decades.
and you've written a poetry collection. I was wondering if you could just, very basic question, talk about how, you know, deciding to do this to sort of switch medium, how that came about. Well, I was on a shroom trip because this is the true story. And I usually don't write lyrics when I'm
in that state. However, that day I felt inspired and I was writing a bunch of stuff down and after the trip I was like, "I love these lyrics but I don't think I can craft them into a song."
And so I left them be for a while and then a couple of weeks later I went back to them and I was like, oh, I think these could be poems, not songs. They don't need to be like shoehorned into a pop song structure. And so from that moment onwards, I started to write pretty much every single day the whole summer. And I discovered that this medium could afford me
so much space to explore the past, definitely to be more literal as well, because I think with pop songs there's an element of fantasy, which I really love, but I think with poetry it just allowed me to expand on topics that perhaps I'd already discussed in music before. And the period of your life in which, you know, you sat down writing them, what was...
What was going on for you, you know, in the broader context of your life? You could just set the scene about, you know, when you were writing. So it was 2022 and I'd moved to LA permanently like two years before. I wasn't in a relationship and I hadn't been for a couple of years. And yeah, I think getting used to a new city...
I think for any of us it can be quite isolating at first, regardless of if you have a community there or not. And I think a city like LA is so large, it really can magnify certain aspects of your personality. So for me, a lot of this book is exploring this idea of having a feeling of loneliness despite having people around you. And it's something that's personal to me,
might not really have anything to do with my past, it's just like part of my personality. And yeah, that was one of the main topics I started with. I guess for lay people, perhaps people who aren't songwriters or poets, there is often a conflation of the two and people will say, you know, this artist's songs are very poetic or indeed that some poetry sounds like songs. What did you find...
was the crucial difference between the two. And were there... You just mentioned about how you could perhaps express yourself less with fantasy in poetry, but was there other things that poetry gave you the freedom to do that songwriting didn't without the commercial constraints? Well, also, I didn't know that I was going to do a book at first. I was just enjoying it. I think the variety of subjects that I could talk about is much larger.
Because again, some things just aren't going to sound good in a song. You just, yeah, you can't articulate it in the same way. Because in your music career, I feel you did get a reputation for having quite, compared to a lot of other pop artists, quite political lyrics, especially in your last album. So did you find that you had been tagged as outspoken or that you found that...
limiting in a way? Yeah, I think I have been tagged as that, but I also think that's why I have such a dedicated fan base, because I think you guys are people who want interesting lyrics and you relate to music in a way that it's like a companion to help you grow throughout life. At least that's what I'm like, and that's the sensation I get with my fans. But I think, yeah, I think with poetry,
I don't know. I like being honest and I get a thrill when I uncover something in myself that makes me feel like I'm able to be more honest with myself. So I think it's outspoken, but maybe not in the way that people might predict. It's not political really very much at all. It's more of a personal book.
Yeah, and I think it's worth getting into the themes because I think many people here won't have necessarily had a chance to read all the poems. No, unless you're such a quick reader and you just did it all. Have you finished it? Actually, halfway through.
That's what I was going to say, there were definitely going to be some people that were reading it before it started. Speed reading. But the themes of the poems are highly personal, spoiler alert. Some of the themes include things like your struggles with body image,
with disordered eating, I thought you were very brutally candid about, for example, the desire for male validation, which I think when you were your younger self, which I think...
was surprising in the sense that perhaps we project onto celebrities a certain degree of glamour and ease in their romantic lives that is not true. And yeah, about the struggle of succeeding in a place like LA, those are some of the themes that are certainly there in early poems. I thought one of the most intriguing things you write about is your fears, and one of them was that you talk about this fear of...
basically the fear of being happy, which I think a lot of people who may have struggled with depression may understand, which is where sadness or loneliness become so normal, they almost become safe. And, you know, there's a poem about
the fear of missing being sad. I was wondering if you could elaborate a little bit on that and why sadness became such a familiar and in some ways comforting sensation. That's such a good topic because I think it relates to change and how difficult it is to change your life. It's never overnight. I think it's like a very gradual process. And I think in terms of that poem that you mentioned,
I think with the sadness, I think if that's been a baseline in your life for a long time, you don't know what's on the other side. And so part of you desperately wants to escape a challenging state like sadness. However, you don't know how else life could look. And actually, I'm thinking of a quote that I discovered about six months ago.
which is we always choose familiar hells over unfamiliar heavens. And that just resonated so deeply with me. We all want a better life for ourselves, but it's like, how do you get there? And I think in our worst moments, it might be like, I know I have these patterns that make me feel stuck, but how do I get out of them? And it really, it's like a little by little process.
I think lasting change rarely happens quickly. I'm interested in your idea about the relationship of sadness to writing, making art and making work because, you know,
even just in my own personal experience as an author, sometimes I kind of have the belief, whether it's true or not, that my sadness or struggles I've had are fuelling, "Oh, well, like, you know, I might not have been able to get a bed for three months, but this will make a good book." And actually, as I've gotten older, I think that's not necessarily true, and the sort of tortured artist stereotype can be a bit of a burden. What role does sadness, or did it... does or did it play in your creativity? And do you think...
it can fuel or has fueled any of your art or is it something that you think just inhibits? Yeah, I think our experiences are usually the source or like the impetus for us to become artists. I think there are lots of artists out today who don't seem to work from a place of sadness and I think it's inspiring to see that but also for myself.
I don't think you need to have that as your basis. I think life is up and down, like happiness isn't this like permanent destination that we're all going to. I think even if you live a great life and you're very emotionally stable. The fact that you laughed at the concept. Because I'm like, will it ever happen for me?
Nobody knows. But I think even if you have that stability, you're still going to encounter ups and downs because that's part of the human experience. Nobody escapes challenges.
There's a poem called Billionaire's Beach in the collection, and the themes that you explore in that are about nature and climate and the theme of exploitation. And reverence for nature is such a huge part of this collection, I think. And I know you said it wasn't... It's not explicitly political, but I guess there is a kind of consciousness in some of these poems.
And you juxtapose timelessness of nature with man-made structures. And that's something that I think there is a through line of that with some of your songs. What made you write a poem like that? What inspired that? I feel scared of the sea, for one. So I think that's what started it. But I think seeing the ocean as this...
kind of entity that humans, that lives along humans and is far more knowledgeable than us. I think the way in which our consciousness has developed is that
or maybe the human brain has developed, is that we think we're all-knowing and that, for example, we are more intelligent than trees. How do we know? They've been here way longer than us. And the same can be said for the ocean. So I think it's looking at nature in a different way where it's not like, you know, it's not from the top down where humans are the most intelligent species or living thing here.
Yeah, thank you for sharing that. I was going to just read a small section of a poem just to provide some context that I was really interested about you. The collection sort of interrogates your past and versions of yourself and your younger versions of yourself, and I think there are often, you seem to be in dialogue with
perhaps a younger version of yourself and one of the themes that I've already touched on that I mentioned was, yeah, there's a whole section about previous relationships and validation and relationships where you perhaps weren't seen or you weren't valued and I think it's quite powerful. You say, "I'm living on a tightrope waiting for a man's attention to somersault and land on me."
And I think for someone in your position who... I hate that. Like, I almost hate that I wrote it, but again, we have to be honest here.
Well, that's the thing is that I think, as I said, I think that is very honest. And I feel like sometimes if you're a female artist and you're, you know, you're kind of probably committed to some quite feminist ideas to admit that we have these tensions, you know, inside ourselves. I think a lot of people and a lot of women can relate to that. It's really powerful. And I wanted to know how you view that.
intimacy and connection now compared to your younger self? You know, has there been a shift in your desires and
Interestingly, that was only written two years ago about my current life. You're like, no, I'm not over it. Well, I'm getting over it, but I think this book has actually been instrumental in shifting through that because I don't think you can change things until you're aware of them in yourself. And I think my relationships in my 20s, you know, they're like up and down as everyone's really, but...
they were more consistent I would say and then when I left a relationship around 35 I moved to LA it was like this new chapter of my life I was suddenly in this like dating world where there are dating apps now like I'd never been on an app I'd always met people like naturally in my life and I think that brought up like a lot of pre-existing issues because if you're whether it's
that you're looking for a relationship or you're dating casually, they're not really, like, secure or safe connections yet because of the way that you meet. It's not through, like, a friend where you kind of know a bit about that person. So I think throwing myself into the wolves, per se, I would feel much more vulnerable. And I think even though it was a horrible experience, I think it was very necessary for me to be able to actually...
process these patterns that I had where they'd even come from so I wouldn't say I'm fully out but I'm like I'm on the way out yeah because you you do reference in the poems directly that you like you you did therapy and you've done lots of attempts to do lots of work on yourself um
I was wondering if you think that writing and writing poetry specifically, because some people say writing's therapy for me. I don't personally think it is. I think they're two different things. But did the therapy you do help with this collection or...
Or were they linked in some way? What do you see as the link between therapy and writing? Yeah, I think they were linked. I actually thank my therapist in the acknowledgements. Because I'm like, she probably never gets a thank you in that way. But yes, there was a link for sure. In terms of if it's therapy, it is therapeutic in a sense. Because I think once you bring things to the fore, you can't ignore them.
It's like there's this very common thing with artists when they put an album out, like when it's released, they'll break up with their boyfriend. Because suddenly you have to face the reality that you wrote all these songs about them. And that maybe you shouldn't be with them. It's common. So yeah, I do think it's therapeutic in that way.
A lot of the poems I actually strongly related to because I felt they were specifically about the anxieties of being a woman, like, in your mid-30s. And, like you said, you've gone back to being single. And for you working in an industry, you know, and that's everything. And I think it's not just about the industry you work in. Like, there's the idea of, am I going to be a mother? Am I going to have children? You know, all of the patriarchal conditioning that says that there's sort of a time limit on...
women's desirability, but also looking back at your younger self and actually realizing that you were bending yourself in to try and fit other people's expectations. And I think a lot of women, even not, you know, in a necessarily public-facing industry can relate to that. But for you, in the industry you're in, that must be even more intensified. Did you feel that...
the difficulties of being a pop artist and the changes about how you do that in your 30s influenced your choice to write this and what you wrote about. Mm-hmm.
I mean, it's a good question because I think a lot of pop artistry is about putting forward an image of yourself that you hope to be. It's like we're our own superheroes in a way. We get to dress in a way that's fantastical or make music videos. When you strip that back, everyone's just a human being with similar issues. And I think for me, the only kind of difficult part I think is
is kind of breaking that fourth wall in a way where even coming on this book tour, I didn't have to do it. A lot of artists do books and they just put them out and that's it. And I knew this would be challenging because
I'm basically admitting I'm human. Which is very anti-pop. But I'm like, well, maybe it can be pop. Maybe that's actually part of my uniqueness as an artist and what I can offer people. It's like, you know, whenever I pop my clogs, may that be in many years, I'd rather feel that people were able to connect with me on a human level and feel less lonely about...
similar subjects that are challenging to them than be this kind of image or figure that seems perfect. I think there's something dissatisfying in that ultimately. And also, it doesn't allow me to grow. Like, I want to exist in other spheres outside of music because I love conversation and I love self-actualization. That's something that's always really driven my work and purpose as an artist. I was wondering if you could share with us perhaps some of the
sort of just paint around the image that comes across so clearly in the collection of the kind of key moments perhaps in your life or career of realisation or growth or change, you know, are there any particular moments that you would point to in your life or your career where you're like, that was a pivotal moment that fundamentally changed who I was? It's obvious but definitely getting signed, like Aspartame which is online already, that was
That was about the period of my life three years before. And I think getting signed just changed my life so radically, just mentally and otherwise. But apart from that, I don't know, because it's all felt very gradual for me. I don't think I've had this, like, pop-off moment yet.
What do you guys think? Have I had it yet? Is this all there is? I don't know. Electra Heart obviously was commercial, and I've had number ones and stuff, but I don't personally feel I've had that moment where other artists have had, where it suddenly goes insane. Mine's just been like, slowly, slowly, slowly. There's an interesting...
account of a relationship you had before, I think before you were signed, but certainly before you came to like public fame with someone who then, you know, subsequently you met, who basically said that your success had kind of caused an existential crisis for him. And I was wondering, like,
what is it like to receive that kind of projection or envy from people who were once close to you? Because that was something that clearly came through in the poetry. And I was wondering if that's something that is a challenge or has been a challenge of, you know, when you have achieved success. I think it has been occasionally, yeah. It's never in, like, nasty ways. I think it's just difficult to...
Full stop whether you're you know, it's a man or woman I think with your partner sometimes you can trigger certain things in them if if you're someone who's like very ambitious and Likewise, you know, I might feel like that in the future. I don't know but I think It was never from a bad place, but it was always kind of interesting that I think you're referring to aspartame where this person is
you know, it had been four years since he'd seen me and I don't think he ever imagined that I would make it because it's just so rare to be given the chance to do this. So I understood why it was so weird for him. Yeah. We were also talking about Sage about
boundaries and about having to, and that no one, you actually said, sorry to go, we always feel like that inspires fear, it's like we were talking backstage, what's she going to reveal? That you touched on the fact that no one really shows you how to set those or, you know, even with
fans with people who develop an intense relationship with you and your work and about how, you know, that just being a human being, as you say, you can't always live up to that. And I was wondering if that is something that you feel you've got better at about having that distinction between who you are in private, Marina in private, and...
who you are as a public artist and how you learn to do that if no one in the industry showed you how to do that. I think it's difficult because we all have different limits and different bandwidths for how much we can give, how much, you know, stimulation we can cope with each day. And I think extroverts do better than introverts on that level. But I think you're the only one who's able to vocalize that and learn about that.
and learn that actually it's okay to say, I don't want to give anymore. Like I'm done for the day or for the week or whatever it is. But I think particularly in the beginning of your career, it feels so urgent. Everything feels like it's make or break. And yeah, I've like worked myself beyond so many times, which I think was the reason behind some health issues that I'd had in the last five or six years. So I have had to
change that forced me. I don't think I would have if I hadn't had that happen to me. You do talk, as I said at the start, you're quite frank in the poetry as well about not just depression but struggles with bulimia and disordered eating and I think that remains such a stigmatized thing. I was wondering if there was a decision that you made to share that because
It may help other people because I think there is...
still, we haven't really made many... You know, I feel like when I was growing up, there were conversations in the toxic noughties, where, like... Toxic noughties! I know, right? About body image, but I feel like it's almost worse now with Instagram and social media, and I know that, again, one of the things that you talk about a lot, not a lot, but, like, a fair amount, there's a theme throughout a lot of the poetry about...
this anxiety about social media, you know when you're in Greece and you talk about cosmetic enhancements, like the pressure on, I think femininity has from Electra Hart onwards has always been kind of a repeat concern of you and your work. I was wondering whether or not you felt
there was not necessarily a responsibility, but something you wanted to do was to share about your own struggles because you have fans that may be struggling in the same way, or if it was to add to a public conversation? No, I wasn't aware of it. I think when I write, it is a bit selfish in that it's just what I need to say at the time, but I think after the fact, I'm glad I have because this is like a period of my life that is so far behind me, and...
like you saying about the fact that body image almost feels worse now, like the pressure to look a certain way, I feel a little... It's not that I'm not affected, but I feel a bit desensitized because I just don't have any activation there anymore. It's almost like 15 years ago that I started to recover from disordered eating. But now, I think now looking at the...
The culture, it seems like we've just swapped one ideal for another and that's something that I don't feel great about. Because I think also there's this mantra about women's choice to do whatever they want to their bodies and I'm 100% pro that. Everyone should have the choice. It's your life. But I also think we need to be careful with...
or just aware of the fact that is it just something else that women suddenly have to like scrabble to adhere to to meet some ideal that is often just a trend, you know? It's really difficult because living in LA, I swear like twice a year me and my best friend text each other and go, should I get lip filler? And the other one goes, no, you don't fucking need it.
And this time my best friend texted me and I was like, "Don't ever fucking get it." But then three weeks later I was like, "Maybe I should get a tiny bit." So I'm not immune at all, but I think, yeah, it's worth like challenging yourself on these things because they seem small and nuanced, but you still want to feel like the majority of yourself is actually you.
You know, like your brain. Yeah. We all do little things for our appearance, but it's tough out there. I definitely have a lot of compassion and absolutely no judgment. What would be one thing that you would say, you know, to your younger self, perhaps when you just got signed? What advice would you give her now with the retrospect of the career you've had and the wisdom that you've acquired in the intervening years? I think I would have said to myself to...
really be careful about the people around me, like the people in my team in particular, to choose people who actually really cared about me. And I think it's still something that's quite difficult in this industry.
Yeah, even, you know, with friendships as well, because I think doing this kind of job attracts all sorts of people for all sorts of reasons. And it might not be, again, anything that's negative. But I think when you're giving so much and so much of your life is, you know, investing in your work or like doing shows and promo and stuff, you need people who are like really going to enrich you and help.
just truly be there for you. And I don't think I really had that in my life for a long time. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you.
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This episode is brought to you by Dutch Bros. Get stoked for all the holly jolly vibes this season at Dutch Bros. Stay cozy with returning winter faves, hazelnut truffle mocha and candy cane mocha. Plus, the new Winter Shimmer Rebel Energy Drink blends up sweet cream and blue ras flavor with soft top and shimmer sprinks to keep those spirits energized all winter long. Download the Dutch Bros app to find your nearest shop, order ahead and start earning rewards. One thing I wanted to ask you about, which is...
I'm conscious it's such a personal thing to ask about, but it is in the poems, is you write about being child-free and wanting to stay that way. And I...
I still think it's something I've written about and I think it's still tagged as controversial and something that I find that when women talk about it they have to apologize often for it or there's a certain way that it has to be spoken about. Yeah, as if it's like, but I don't hate children. Yeah. It's like, yeah, I like children, I just can't take care of them. LAUGHTER
But I actually think many women, like, yeah, my experience of having written about it is that actually it's surprising how many people are quite grateful that someone does share about it. And I think lots of women will relate to someone like you talking about it. And I, yeah, I was wondering if you would mind talking about that decision, about, I guess, firstly, about the decision itself, about how you've...
whether or not you did struggle with that societal expectation and whether it was something that you wanted to change your opinion on and arriving at this quite certain position when everyone's like, you'll change your mind, whatever. And then about your decision to put it out. Well, I mean, I know that you said that when you write the poems, you're not necessarily thinking about that, but I think, you know, even being willing to speak about it now. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I think, I mean, first off,
You know, I think it's always good to give yourself a space. If you ever want to change your mind, that's fine. But I also feel that for myself, it took me like probably three years of really thinking about it deeply. And honestly, just feeling so bad that I didn't feel the same way as everyone else. I used to literally just say, I wish I could just fit in and do the damn thing.
I can't force myself to do things I don't want to do. So I've read books about it. There's one called The Baby Decision that's really good. And ultimately, as soon as I gave myself the freedom to make the decision I wanted, I felt like massively better. And my whole life kind of improved after that. I think that was maybe two years ago. But yeah, it's a big decision. I have such respect and admiration for people who do choose to become parents because they
even if you're, you know, you have a mad desire to be one, it's still very challenging and self, you know, self-sacrificing. So I, and particularly I think for women, because it feels almost impossible to, at least through my friends' experiences, I think it's almost impossible to retain that old part of you. I think you have to like, it seems like you have to grieve certain parts of yourself. So
It's a big decision, and it shouldn't be taken lightly if you have the freedom to choose, because a lot of women in the world don't have the freedom. Yeah, no, I completely agree. And I think, yeah, it's interesting to me that you still had to...
felt you had to consider it and you were, you know, almost trying to embrace that that's how dominant the societal narrative is when it's such a huge responsibility and undertaking. Yeah. That I think everyone, whether they do or don't, should probably be giving it the same level of thought, but they don't. But also, like, stepmums exist. I think I'd be a good stepmom. LAUGHTER
I'm like the person who brings like a latte for the kid. You know? Yeah, I know. It's like, I hope my sister has a gay son so that I can be the family. Yeah, I want like close proximity, but I don't want them to be mine. I love sleep too much.
Just a warning, like in about 10 minutes-ish, we're going to have a couple more questions. Marina's going to read one poem. I might. I'm not like a spoken word lady, but... Do you guys want me to? I don't know. Yeah, I'll read Eat the World. And then I'm going to come to you for questions to start thinking. Yeah, I guess the sort of like... What I wanted to come to...
is about looking forward, because I think... Yeah, you also look to the future in this poetry collection. And my impression as someone that has followed pop music and pop culture and women in pop music, including your career for a long time, is that I think because it can be so youth-obsessed, there is less of a roadmap for how women's careers evolve
And I don't know whether that... That seems to me like it could be quite freeing in its own way because it's like you're sort of unleashed from the shackles of like a particular model of the pop star. But I was wondering for you whether or not you said you feel like your career and your artistry has been gradual. Are you just going with the flow? Do you have a five-year plan? Do you know... Yeah, is there a manifestation board for the next 20 years? Like, do you know...
where you're going. Big question. Wow. Do you know where you're going and what you're doing with your life? Get it together, Marina. Great subject. I think, yeah, I think with pop music, it is so youth-oriented for good reason. And I think it's a really interesting question that you pose, which is like, how do you grow older as a pop artist and still remain young
true to yourself in a way that's like not hanging on to youth because I do have those thoughts but I don't I don't want to do it and like I just hope that I can move through to
essentially womanhood, I was speaking about this yesterday, I think this transition from girlhood to womanhood can occur for women, you know, sometimes late teens, mid-twenties. For me, I'm 39 and it's just happening now. But it really struck me a few weeks ago because I'm just finishing up my next record and it's so much about... It's so much about...
stepping into your personal sense of power and what that looks like. And I realized that I can't do that if I'm still remaining in girlhood in some way, even if that's just like energetically. And I think...
Yeah, I think adulthood is great because you're able to harness and relinquish your own power that sometimes you give up as a child or as a teenager. So in terms of what's ahead, I don't have five-year plans, but I do have like two-year plans because that's the album cycle. Is there anything in terms of the themes or what you're exploring in the next album that you feel up for sharing?
I can't share anything else, but it's been hugely enjoyable to create and I feel just great about it. Yeah, it's so interesting what you say about girlhood and womanhood because I think perhaps actually that is more often a teenage thing, but I actually wonder if, and this is really off the top of my head to tell me if I'm wrong, that I think
you know, for female pop artists in their 20s, there's almost like a prolonged infantilization in terms of the way they're packaged and sold. - 100%. - Where there are always girls in this way that's like... Yeah, that's like... Because it's this idea that there has to be kind of a kind of innocence in pop music or a relatability for a young fan that...
Yeah, I love that because also I think women are kind of punished when they deviate from that. Like I think Chapel Rowan is an excellent example of someone who's like early to mid-20s and is, well, says how she feels. I think that's an example of someone who's
accepting their power that they acquire in womanhood. And womanhood is very inconvenient, I think, to patriarchy. So as young girls, we're told to hold on to our youth. And also there's just such a deep connection with
your level of desirability which is also linked with your value and I'm moving through that now. I'm like, I just, I don't want to feel like that. I refuse. Even if it is hard to have eye bags all of a sudden, I'm like, what the fuck happened?
It is humbling to get older, but also, you know, doing events like this makes me feel good about it because there are ways in which you can actually make that a powerful thing, not something that you're losing. Like, it would be so sad if human existence was about
just focusing on this one quite small period in life and ignoring the rest. Like we're here for 80 to 100 years for a reason because each chapter gives us something new, I hope anyway. Thank you. I'm going to pass it back to you now. Oh no. Yeah, I know, it's crunch time. Oh shit. Someone beatboxed.
Alright. I was the type of girl to swallow the world whole, ingest it all. I felt too much, needed too much. There would never be enough love. Insatiable endless black hole of everythingness. Starving for everything I didn't need. Malnourished by placebos of love. Vitamins called success, attention, money, fame. Pissed out, unaware, into luxurious Japanese toilet bowls.
Nothing could touch the sides of my crippling black star void, jet black hole of noise. No boyfriend, magazine, cover chart sale, sold-out tour, million dollar contract could satiate my stomachache for love. I thought if I ate the world, I would finally be full. I would never be hungry again. I was wrong. Of course I was.
This isn't a movie, this is real life. A ragged, jagged pill of a life. A world of clothes, cars, photoshoots, planes, tears, traumas, studios, trains. Approve, approve, approve, try, try, try, grind, grind, grind. To be heard, seen, valued, understood by men with no knowledge of real womanhood.
who held my power in their purses owned my choruses and my verses but now i'm free of what i had to sever i'm free of the hunger lighter than feather i'm free of those men i'm prolific like heather i ate the whole world and i'll eat it forever hi hi welcome um marina has only been in the uk a couple of days back in the uk and you're saying you're
coping well with the jet lag, so hopefully... I'm feeling very alive right now, so... I'm feeling good. We're going to just jump straight in to talk about this poetry collection. You know, you've been writing songs that we've been listening to for like, I mean, almost two decades.
and you've written a poetry collection. I was wondering if you could just, very basic question, talk about how, you know, deciding to do this to sort of switch medium, how that came about. Well, I was on a shroom trip because this is the true story. And I usually don't write lyrics when I'm
in that state. However, that day I felt inspired and I was writing a bunch of stuff down and after the trip I was like, "I love these lyrics but I don't think I can craft them into a song."
And so I left them be for a while and then a couple of weeks later I went back to them and I was like, "Oh, I think these could be poems, not songs. They don't need to be shoehorned into a pop song structure." And so from that moment onwards, I started to write pretty much every single day the whole summer. And I discovered that this medium could afford me
so much space to explore the past, definitely to be more literal as well, because I think with pop songs there's an element of fantasy, which I really love, but I think with poetry it just allowed me to expand on topics that perhaps I'd already discussed in music before. And the period of your life in which, you know, you sat down writing them, what was
What was going on for you, you know, in the broader context of your life? You could just set the scene about, you know, when you were writing these books. So it was 2022 and I'd moved to LA permanently like two years before. I wasn't in a relationship and I hadn't been for a couple of years. And yeah, I think getting used to a new city
I think for any of us it can be quite isolating at first regardless of if you have a community there or not and I think a city like LA is so large it really can magnify certain aspects of your personality. So for me it was a lot of this book is exploring this idea of having a feeling of loneliness despite having people around you and it's something that's personal to me
might not really have anything to do with my past, it's just like part of my personality. And yeah, that was one of the main topics I started with. I guess for lay people, perhaps people who aren't songwriters or poets, there is often a conflation of the two and people will say, you know, this artist's songs are very poetic or indeed that some poetry sounds like songs. What did you find
was the crucial difference between the two. And were there... You just mentioned about how you could perhaps express yourself less with fantasy in poetry, but was there other things that poetry gave you the freedom to do that songwriting didn't without the commercial constraints? Well, also, I didn't know that I was going to do a book at first. I was just enjoying it. I think the variety of subjects that I could talk about is much larger.
Because again, some things just aren't going to sound good in a song. You just, yeah, you can't articulate it in the same way. Because in your music career, I feel you did get a reputation for having quite, compared to a lot of other pop artists, quite political lyrics, especially in your last album. So did you find that you had been tagged as outspoken or that you found that
limiting in a way? Yeah, I think I have been tagged as that but I also think that's why I have such a dedicated fan base because I think you guys are people who want interesting lyrics and you relate to music in a way that it's like a companion to help you grow throughout life. At least that's what I'm like and that's the sensation I get with my fans. But I think yeah, I think with poetry
I don't know. I like being honest and I get a thrill when I uncover something in myself that makes me feel like I'm able to be more honest with myself. So I think it's outspoken but maybe not in the way that people might predict. It's not political really very much at all. It's more of a personal book.
Yeah, and I think it's worth getting into the themes because I think many people here won't have necessarily had a chance to read all the poems. No, unless you're such a quick reader and you just did it on... Have you finished it? It's actually halfway through.
That's what I was going to say, there were definitely going to be some people that were reading it before it started. Speed reading. But the themes of the poems are highly personal, spoiler alert. Some of the themes include things like your struggles with body image,
with disordered eating, I thought you were very brutally candid about, for example, the desire for male validation, which I think when you were your younger self, which I think
was surprising in the sense that perhaps we project onto celebrities a certain degree of glamour and ease in their romantic lives that is not true. And yeah, about the struggle of succeeding in a place like LA, those are some of the themes that are certainly there in early poems. I thought one of the most intriguing things you write about is your fears. And one of them was that you talk about this fear of...
basically the fear of being happy, which I think a lot of people who may have struggled with depression may understand, which is where sadness or loneliness become so normal, they almost become safe. And, you know, there's a poem about...
the fear of missing being sad. I was wondering if you could elaborate a little bit on that and why sadness became such a familiar and in some ways comforting sensation. That's such a good topic because I think it relates to change and how difficult it is to change your life. It's never overnight. I think it's like a very gradual process. And I think in terms of that poem that you mentioned,
I think with the sadness, I think if that's been a baseline in your life for a long time, you don't know what's on the other side. And so part of you desperately wants to escape a challenging state like sadness. However, you don't know how else life could look. And actually, I'm thinking of a quote that I discovered about six months ago.
which is we always choose familiar hells over unfamiliar heavens. And that just resonated so deeply with me. We all want a better life for ourselves, but it's like, how do you get there? And I think in our worst moments, it might be like, I know I have these patterns that make me feel stuck, but how do I get out of them? And it really, it's like a little by little process.
I think lasting change rarely happens quickly. I'm interested in your idea about the relationship of sadness to writing, making art, and making work. Because, you know, even
even just in my own personal experience as an author, sometimes I kind of have the belief, whether it's true or not, that my sadness or struggles I've had are fuelling, oh, well, like, you know, I might not have been able to get a bed for three months, but this will make a good book. And actually, as I've gotten older, I think that's not necessarily true and the sort of tortured artist stereotype can be a bit of a burden. What role does sadness or did it... does or did it play in your creativity? And do you think...
it can fuel or has fueled any of your art or is it something that you think just inhibits? Yeah, I think our experience is usually the source or like the impetus for us to become artists. I think there are lots of artists out today who don't seem to work from a place of sadness and I think it's inspiring to see that but also for myself.
I don't think you need to have that as your basis. I think life is up and down, like happiness isn't this like permanent destination that we're all going to. I think even if you live a great life and you're very emotionally stable. The fact that you laughed at the concept. Because I'm like, will it ever happen for me?
Nobody knows. But I think even if you have that stability, you're still going to encounter ups and downs because that's part of the human experience. Nobody escapes challenges.
There's a poem called Billionaire's Beach in the collection and you know the themes that you explore in that are like about nature and the climate and that you know the theme of exploitation and reverence for nature is such a huge part of this collection I think and I know you said it wasn't it's not explicitly political but I guess there is a kind of
consciousness in some of these poems. And like, you know, you juxtapose timelessness of nature with like, you know, man-made structures. And that's something that, you know, I think there is a through line of that with some of your songs. What made you write a poem like that that, you know, what inspired that? And...
I feel scared of the sea, for one. So I think that's what started it. But I think seeing the ocean as this kind of entity that humans, that, you know, lives along humans and is far more knowledgeable than us. I think the way in which our consciousness has developed is that
or maybe the human brain has developed is that we think we're all knowing and that for example we are more intelligent than trees how do we know they've been here way longer than us and the same can be said for the ocean so i think it's looking at nature in a different way where it's not like you know it's not from the top down where humans are the most intelligent species or living thing here
Yeah, thank you for sharing that. I was going to just read a small section of a poem just to provide some context that I was really interested about you. The collection sort of interrogates your past and versions of yourself and your younger versions of yourself, and I think there are often, you seem to be in dialogue with perhaps a younger version of yourself. And one of the themes that I've already touched on that I mentioned was...
Yeah, there's a whole section about previous relationships and validation and relationships where you perhaps weren't seen or you weren't valued. And I think it's quite powerful. You say, I'm living on a tightrope waiting for a man's attention to somersault and land on me. And I think for someone in your position who... I hate that. Like, I always hate that I wrote it, but again, we have to be honest here. LAUGHTER
Well, that's the thing is that I think, as I said, I think that is very honest and I feel like sometimes if you're a female artist and you're, you know, you're kind of probably committed to some quite feminist ideas to admit that we have these tensions, you know, inside ourselves. I think a lot of people and a lot of women can relate to that. It's really powerful and I wanted to know how you view...
intimacy and connection now compared to your younger self? You know, has there been a shift in your desires and
Interestingly, that was only written two years ago about my current life. You're like, no, I'm not over it. Well, I'm getting over it, but I think this book has actually been instrumental in shifting through that because I don't think you can change things until you're aware of them in yourself. And I think my relationships in my 20s, you know, they're like up and down as everyone's really...
they were more consistent I would say and then when I left a relationship around 35 I moved to LA it was like this new chapter of my life I was suddenly in this like dating world where there are dating apps now like I'd never been on an app I'd always met people like naturally in my life and I think that brought up like a lot of pre-existing issues because if you're whether it's
that you're looking for a relationship or you're dating casually, they're not really like secure or safe connections yet because of the way that you meet. It's not through like a friend where you kind of know a bit about that person. So I think throwing myself into the wolves per se, I would feel much more vulnerable. And I think even though it was a horrible experience, I think it was very necessary for me to be able to actually
these patterns that I had, where they'd even come from. So I wouldn't say I'm fully out, but I'm like, I'm on the way out. Yeah. Because you do reference in the poems directly that you did therapy and you've done lots of attempts to do lots of work on yourself. Yeah.
I was wondering if you think that writing and writing poetry specifically, because some people say writing is therapy for me. I don't personally think it is. I think they're two different things. But did therapy you do help with this collection or...
Or were they linked in some way? What do you see as the link between therapy and writing? Yeah, I think they were linked. I actually thank my therapist in the acknowledgements. Because I'm like, she probably never gets a thank you in that way. But yes, there was a link for sure. In terms of if it's therapy, it is therapeutic in a sense. Because I think once you bring things to the fore, you can't ignore them.
It's like there's this very common thing with artists when they put an album out, like when it's released, they'll break up with their boyfriend because suddenly you have to face the reality that you wrote all these songs about them and that maybe you shouldn't be with them. It's common. So yeah, I do think it's therapeutic in that way.
A lot of the poems I actually strongly related to because I felt they were specifically about the anxieties of being a woman in your mid-30s. And like you said, you've gone back to being single. And for you working in an industry... And that's everything. And I think it's not just about the industry you work in. There's the idea of, am I going to be a mother? Am I going to have children? You know...
all of the patriarchal conditioning that says that there's sort of a time limit on women's desirability, but also looking back at your younger self and actually realising that you were bending yourself to try and fit other people's expectations. And I think a lot of women even not...
you know, in a necessarily public-facing industry can relate to that. But for you, in the industry you're in, that must be even more intensified. Did you feel that the difficulties of being a pop artist and the changes about how you do that in your 30s influenced your choice to write this and what you wrote about? Mm-hmm.
I mean, it's a good question because I think a lot of pop artistry is about putting forward an image of yourself that you hope to be. It's like we're our own superheroes in a way. We get to dress in a way that's fantastical or make music videos. But
you know, when you strip that back, everyone's just a human being with, you know, similar issues. And I think for me, the only kind of difficult part I think is kind of breaking that like fourth wall in a way where even coming on this book tour, like I didn't have to do it. A lot of artists do books and they just put them out and that's it. But, and I knew this would be challenging because
I'm basically admitting I'm human, which is very anti-pop. But I'm like, well, maybe it can be pop. Maybe that's actually part of my uniqueness as an artist and what I can offer people. It's like, you know, whenever I pop my clogs, may that be in many years, I'd rather feel that people were able to connect with me on a human level and feel less lonely about...
similar subjects that are challenging to them than be this kind of image or figure that seems perfect. I think there's something dissatisfying in that ultimately. And also it doesn't allow me to grow. Like, I want to exist in other spheres outside of music because I love conversation and I love self-actualization. That's something that's always really driven my work and purpose as an artist.
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I was wondering if you could share with us perhaps some of the sort of paint around the image that comes across so clearly in the collection of the kind of key moments perhaps in your life or career of realisation or growth or change. Are there any particular moments that you would point to
in your life or your career where you're like, that was a pivotal moment that fundamentally changed who I was? It's obvious, but definitely getting signed. Like Aspartame, which is online already, that was about the period of my life three years before
And I think getting signed just changed my life so radically, just mentally and otherwise. But apart from that, I don't know, because it's all felt very gradual for me. I don't think I've had this like pop-off moment yet.
What do you guys think? Have I had it yet? Is this all there is? I don't know. Electra Heart obviously was commercial, and I've had number ones and stuff, but I don't personally feel I've had that moment where other artists have had, where it suddenly goes insane. Mine's just been like, slowly, slowly, slowly. There's an interesting...
of a relationship you had before, I think before you were signed, but certainly before you came to public fame with someone who then, you know, subsequently you met, who basically said that your success had kind of caused an existential crisis for him. And I was wondering, like,
What is it like to receive that kind of projection or envy from people who were once close to you? Because that was something that clearly came through in the poetry. And I was wondering if that's something that is a challenge or has been a challenge of, you know, when you have achieved success. I think it has been occasionally, yeah. It's never in, like, nasty ways. I think it's just difficult to...
full stop whether it's a man or a woman. I think with your partner, sometimes you can trigger certain things in them if you're someone who's very ambitious. And likewise, I might feel like that in the future, I don't know. But I think it was never from a bad place, but it was always kind of interesting that I think you're referring to aspartame, where this person...
you know, it had been four years since he'd seen me and I don't think he ever imagined that I would make it because it's just so rare to be given the chance to do this. So I understood why it was so weird for him. Yeah. We were also talking about Sage about
boundaries and about having to, and that no one, you actually said, sorry to go, we always feel like that inspires fear, it's like we were talking backstage, what's she going to reveal? That you touched on the fact that no one really shows you how to set those or, you know, even with
fans with people who develop an intense relationship with you and your work and about how, you know, that just being a human being, as you say, you can't always live up to that. And I was wondering if that is something that you feel you've got better at about having that distinction between who you are in private, Marina, in private, and...
who you are as a public artist and how you learn to do that if no one in the industry showed you how to do that. I think it's difficult because we all have different limits and different bandwidths for how much we can give, how much, you know, stimulation we can cope with each day. And I think extroverts do better than introverts on that level. But I think you're the only one who's able to vocalize that and learn about that.
and learn that actually it's okay to say, I don't want to give anymore. Like I'm done for the day or for the week or whatever it is. But I think particularly in the beginning of your career, it feels so urgent. Everything feels like it's make or break. And yeah, I've like worked myself beyond so many times, which I think was the reason behind some health issues that I'd had in the last five or six years. So I have had to,
change that forced me. I don't think I would have if I hadn't had that happen to me. You do talk, as I said at the start, you're quite frank in the poetry as well about not just depression but struggles with bulimia and disordered eating and I think that remains such a stigmatized thing. I was wondering if there was a decision that you made to share that because
It may help other people because I think there is
still, we haven't really made many... You know, I feel like when I was growing up, there were conversations in the toxic noughties, where, like... Toxic noughties! I know, right? About body image, but I feel like it's almost worse now with Instagram and social media, and I know that, again, one of the things that you talk about a lot, not a lot, but, like, a fair amount, there's a theme throughout a lot of the poetry about...
this anxiety about social media, like this, you know, when you're in Greece and you talk about cosmetic enhancements, like the pressure on, I think femininity has, from Electra Heart onwards, has always been kind of a repeat concern of you and your work. I was, yeah, I was wondering whether or not you felt
there was not necessarily a responsibility, but something you wanted to do was to share about your own struggles because you have fans that may be struggling in the same way, or if it was to add to a public conversation? No, I wasn't aware of it. I think when I write, it is a bit selfish in that it's just what I need to say at the time, but I think after the fact, I'm glad I have because this is like a period of my life that is so far behind me, and...
like you saying about the fact that body image almost feels worse now, like the pressure to look a certain way, I feel a little... It's not that I'm not affected, but I feel a bit desensitized because I just don't have any activation there anymore. It's almost like 15 years ago that I started to recover from disordered eating. But now, I think now looking at the...
The culture, it seems like we've just swapped one ideal for another, and that's something that I don't feel great about. Because I think also there's this mantra about women's choice to do whatever they want to their bodies, and I'm 100% pro that. Everyone should have the choice. It's your life. But I also think we need to be careful with...
or just aware of the fact that is it just something else that women suddenly have to like scrabble to adhere to to meet some ideal. That is often just a trend, you know? It's really difficult because living in LA, I swear like twice a year me and my best friend text each other and go, should I get lip filler? And the other one goes, no, you don't fucking need it.
And this time my best friend texted me and I was like, don't ever fucking get it. But then three weeks later I was like, maybe I should get a tiny bit. So I'm not immune at all. But I think, yeah, it's worth like challenging yourself on these things because they seem small and nuanced, but you still want to feel like the majority of yourself is actually you, you know, like your brain. Yeah. We all do little things for our appearance, but...
It's tough out there. I definitely have a lot of compassion and absolutely no judgment. What would be one thing that you would say to your younger self, perhaps when you just got signed? What advice would you give her now with the retrospect of the career you've had and the wisdom that you've acquired in the intervening years? I think I would have said to myself to really be careful about the people around me, like the people in my team,
in particular, to choose people who actually really cared about me. And I think it's still something that's quite difficult in this industry. Yeah, even, you know, with friendships as well, because I think doing this kind of job attracts all sorts of people for all sorts of reasons. And it might not be, again, anything that's negative, but I think when you're giving so much and so much of your life is...
you know, investing in your work or like doing shows and promo and stuff, you need people who are like really going to enrich you and just truly be there for you. And I don't think I really had that in my life for a long time. Yeah. Yeah, thank you. One thing I wanted to ask you about, which is I'm asking, I'm conscious it's such a personal thing to ask about, but it is in the poems, is you write about being child-free and wanting to stay that way. And I...
I still think it's something I've written about and I think it's still tagged as controversial and something that I find that when women talk about it they have to apologize often for it or there's a certain way that it has to be spoken about. Yeah, as if it's like, but I don't hate children. Yeah. It's like, yeah, I like children, I just can't take care of them. LAUGHTER
But I actually think many women, like, yeah, my experience of having written about it is that actually it's surprising how many people are quite grateful that someone does share about it. And I think lots of women will relate to someone like you talking about it. And I, yeah, I was wondering if you would mind talking about that decision, about, I guess, firstly, about the decision itself, about how you've...
whether or not you did struggle with that societal expectation and whether it was something that you wanted to change your opinion on and arriving at this quite certain position when everyone's like, you'll change your mind, whatever. And then about your decision to put it out. Well, I mean, I know that you said that when you write the poems, you're not necessarily thinking about that, but I think, you know, even being willing to speak about it now. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I think, I mean, first off,
You know, I think it's always good to give yourself a space. If you ever want to change your mind, that's fine. But I also feel that for myself, it took me like probably three years of really thinking about it deeply. And honestly, just feeling so bad that I didn't feel the same way as everyone else. I used to literally just say, I wish I could just fit in and do the damn thing.
I can't force myself to do things I don't want to do. So I've read books about it. There's one called The Baby Decision that's really good. And ultimately, as soon as I gave myself the freedom to make the decision I wanted, I felt like massively better. And my whole life kind of improved after that. I think that was maybe two years ago. But yeah, it's a big decision. I have such respect and admiration for people who do choose to become parents because they
even if you're, you know, you have a mad desire to be one, it's still very challenging and self, you know, self-sacrificing. So I, and particularly I think for women, because it feels almost impossible to, at least through my friends' experiences, I think it's almost impossible to retain that old part of you. I think you have to like, it seems like you have to grieve certain parts of yourself. So
It's a big decision and it shouldn't be taken lightly if you have the freedom to choose because a lot of women in the world don't have the freedom. Yeah, no, I completely agree. And I think, yeah, it's interesting to me that you still had to...
felt you had to consider it and you were, you know, almost trying to embrace that that's how dominant the societal narrative is when it's such a huge responsibility and undertaking. Yeah. That I think everyone, whether they do or don't, should probably be giving it the same level of thought, but they don't. But also, like, stepmums exist. I think I'd be a good stepmom. LAUGHTER
I'm like the person who brings like a latte for the kid. You know? Yeah, I know. It's like, I hope my sister has a gay son so that I can be the family. Yeah, I want like one in close proximity, but I don't want them to be mine. I love sleep too much.
Just a warning that in about ten minutes-ish, we're going to have a couple more questions. Marina's going to read one poem. I might. I'm not like the spoken word lady, but... Do you guys want me to? I don't know. Yeah, I'll read Eat the World. And then I'm going to come to you for questions to start thinking. Yeah, I guess the sort of like... What I wanted to come to...
is about looking forward because I think, yeah, you also look to the future in this poetry collection. And my impression as someone that has followed pop music and pop culture and women in pop music, including your career for a long time, is that I think because it can be so youth-obsessed, there is less of a roadmap
for how women's careers evolve. And I don't know whether that... That seems to me like it could be quite freeing in its own way, because it's like you're sort of unleashed from the shackles of a particular model of the pop star. But I was wondering for you whether or not you said you feel like your career and your artistry has been gradual.
Are you just going with the flow? Do you have a five-year plan? Do you know... Yeah, is there a manifestation board for the next 20 years? Like, do you know where you're going? Big question. Wow. Do you know where you're going, what you're doing with your life? Get it together, Marina. Great subject. I think... Yeah, I think...
with pop music, it is so youth-oriented for good reason. And I think it's a really interesting question that you pose, which is like, how do you grow older as a pop artist and still remain true to yourself in a way that's like not hanging on to youth? Because I do have those thoughts, but I don't want to do it. And like, I just hope that I can move through to youth
essentially womanhood, I was speaking about this yesterday, I think this transition from girlhood to womanhood can occur for women, you know, sometimes late teens, mid-twenties. For me, I'm 39 and it's just happening now. But it really struck me a few weeks ago because I'm just finishing up my next record and it's so much about... It's so much about...
stepping into your personal sense of power and what that looks like and I realized that I can't do that if I'm still remaining in girlhood in some way, even if that's just like energetically and I think
Yeah, I think adulthood is great because you're able to harness and relinquish your own power that sometimes you give up as a child or as a teenager. So in terms of what's ahead, I don't have five-year plans, but I do have like two-year plans because that's the album cycle. Is there anything in terms of the themes or what you're exploring in the next album that you feel up for sharing?
I can't share anything else, but it's been hugely enjoyable to create and I feel just great about it. Yeah, it's so interesting what you say about girlhood and womanhood because I think perhaps actually that is more often a teenage thing, but I actually wonder if, and this is really off the top of my head to tell me if I'm wrong, that I think
you know, for female pop artists in their 20s, there's almost like a prolonged infantilization in terms of the way they're packaged and sold. 100%. Where like, sideways girls in this way that's like, yeah, that's like, because it's this idea that there has to be kind of a kind of innocence in pop music or a relatability for a young fan that...
Yeah. Is extended and, and yeah. Yeah. I love that. Cause also I think women are kind of punished when they deviate from that. Like I think Chapel Rowan is an excellent example of someone who's like early to mid twenties and is, well, says how she feels. I think that's an example of someone who,
accepting their power that they acquire in womanhood. And womanhood is very inconvenient, I think, to patriarchy. So as young girls, we're told to hold on to our youth. And also there's just such a deep connection with
your level of desirability which is also linked with your value and I'm moving through that now. I'm like, I just, I don't want to feel like that. I refuse. Even if it is hard to have eye bags all of a sudden, I'm like, what the fuck happened?
It is humbling to get older, but also, you know, doing events like this makes me feel good about it because there are ways in which you can actually make that a powerful thing, not something that you're losing. Like, it would be so sad if human existence was about
just focusing on this one quite small period in life and ignoring the rest. Like we're here for 80 to 100 years for a reason because each chapter gives us something new, I hope anyway. Yeah, thank you. Thank you. I'm going to pass it back to you now. Oh no. Yeah, I know, it's crunch time. Oh shit. Someone beatboxed. All right.
I was the type of girl to swallow the world whole, ingest it all. I felt too much, needed too much. There would never be enough love. Insatiable, endless black hole of everythingness. Starving for everything I didn't need. Malnourished by placebos of love. Vitamins called success, attention, money, fame. Pissed out, unaware, into luxurious Japanese toilet bowls.
Nothing could touch the sides of my crippling black star void, jet black hole of noise. No boyfriend, magazine, cover chart sale, sold out tour, million dollar contract could satiate my stomachache for love. I thought if I ate the world, I would finally be full. I would never be hungry again. I was wrong. Of course I was.
This isn't a movie, this is real life. A ragged, jagged pill of a life. A world of clothes, cars, photoshoots, planes, tears, traumas, studios, trains. Approve, approve, approve, try, try, try, grind, grind, grind. To be heard, seen, valued, understood by men with no knowledge of real womanhood.
who held my power in their purses, owned my choruses and my verses. But now I'm free of what I had to sever. I'm free of the hunger lighter than feather. I'm free of those men. I'm prolific like heather. I ate the whole world and I'll eat it forever. She wrote that really well. False modesty.
I'd like to thank Intelligence Squared and Canongate for organizing this event. And finally, I'd like to thank Marina for a great conversation and giving so much of herself this evening. Marina P. Amandes. Thank you, everyone.
Thanks for listening to Intelligence Squared. This episode was produced by myself, Leila Ismail. Make sure to stay tuned for the next episode as we look back to 2024 and select the 12 best conversations from the year. Experience holiday cheer at Tanger Outlets with savings up to 70% off your favorite brands. From fragrances to accessories and the latest styles.
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