Stories of Resistance, Survival and Beauty from the Bay Area’s Trans Community
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From KQED in San Francisco, I'm Alexis Madrigal. The Supreme Court upheld the Tennessee law on Wednesday that bans gender-affirming medical care for minors even when a child, parents, and doctor agree on that treatment. We're going to get an update on what it means for trans kids and the people who love them.

But then we're going to step back and take the long view of trans history, learning about and celebrating the queer elders who lived into their freedom and truth long before trans people became a fixation of the American right wing. We'll be leaning on the new KQED series Trans Bay and a new oral history, So Many Stars. Till coming up next, right after this news. Welcome to Forum. I'm Alexis Madrigal.

In a 6-3 decision, the Supreme Court effectively ended gender-affirming care for minors in more than 20 states that have banned such treatment, even when a child, their parents, and their doctor agree it may help them live a happier, healthier life. It comes after Donald Trump's campaign plowed hundreds of millions of dollars running ads specifically targeting trans people, and an entire wave of ongoing right-wing propaganda has targeted children playing high school sports.

We're going to get to the stories of queer elders and the legacies of resistance in the LGBTQ plus community in a few minutes. But first, we're going to check in on what the Supreme Court ruling in Scermetti means. Suzanne Goldberg is a professor and director of the Sexuality and Gender Law Clinic at Columbia Law School, and she joins us this morning. Welcome.

Thank you so much. Glad to be here. So for those who aren't following this case as closely as some of us, what was the decision in this case?

Yeah. So for anyone who wasn't following this case closely, what's most important to know is that the Supreme Court agreed to decide whether to how courts should look at bans on gender affirming care. And the case specifically involved a Tennessee law that blocked bans.

doctors from prescribing or healthcare providers from prescribing puberty blockers and hormones. And there was a surgical provision too that really wasn't part of this case, but Tennessee law that blocked puberty blockers, healthcare providers from providing puberty blockers and hormones.

to minors, to young people, but only for the purpose of gender-affirming care. So if a kid needed those exact same medications because they had what's called precocious puberty, puberty came on earlier than is typical or normal, those medications could be provided, but the state legislature in Tennessee said no use of these medications for gender-affirming care. And what happened yesterday was the Supreme Court said

Tennessee can do that. And the court said, this law doesn't even discriminate against transgender people. It only draws lines based on the age of a patient and based on the diagnosis, gender dysphoria or not.

So that's where we are. And the court held six to three, meaning an overwhelming majority of the court, upheld the Tennessee law. Now, to be clear, states can still allow health care providers to provide gender-affirming care, and about half of the states in this country still permit gender-affirming care to be provided. But in the states that don't, this law gives those states the green light. Yeah.

Chase Strangio argued the case, first translator arguing before the Supreme Court. What was the argument that Chase tried to make that this law should be overturned or found unconstitutional? Chase made the argument and also the United States under at the direction of President Biden made the argument that this law was

draws a line based on the sex of the patient and that whenever a government draws lines based on sex,

the government can only do so if it has what we call in law an exceedingly persuasive interest, meaning a really, really good reason for doing so. And so the argument was that because the state allows these hormones, puberty blockers for girls, for example, if they have early onset puberty,

but does not allow these hormones for girls who seek medical care because of, because their gender identity is inconsistent with their sex, their natal sex or their sex identified at birth, that that's a, that's a line based on sex, right? There's no way to understand that you can get these medications for some reasons, but not for others because,

Not if you're transgender. The only way to see that is because of because there is a sex based line. And even the state of Tennessee, the lawmakers said, you know, we want to help young people be comfortable in their own sex. So by any way you look at this, Chase argued and the United States argued this is a sex based line.

Three justices in dissent agreed, including Justice Sotomayor, who wrote in a very powerful dissent that the majority subjects a law that plainly discriminates based on sex to, quote, mere rational basis review, and that in doing so, the court abandons transgender children and their families to political whims. And in sadness, she added, she dissented. Mm-hmm.

If you're a California parent of a trans child getting gender-affirming care, how worried should you be? The state of California allows gender-affirming care and actually protects health care providers who provide it. So if a child is receiving...

appropriate medically indicated gender affirming care with the consent of their parents, that in right now, this ruling does not tell California to change its path. And actually, the court is quite specific that even Justice Alito, who dissented and who, excuse me, who agreed with the majority and went further and said, look,

This law does, we might read this law as discriminating against transgender people. And if it does, it should still be subject to this low level of judicial review. Justice Alito said, look, this doesn't deal with pronouns. This doesn't deal with how people choose to dress. This deals with this kind of medical care. But again, in California and in about half of the states in the country, those states can continue to provide medical

children can continue to access care with the consent of their parents and their medical providers. Do you think it will embolden federal authorities to try to stop transgender care for young people across the country?

Well, they're already in the process of trying to do that. As I'm sure many of your listeners know, on the very first day of the Trump administration, President Trump issued a variety of executive orders. And that first day, right, which is very important for signaling the priorities of a new president, he issued an executive order that was rejecting what he calls gender ideology.

Right. And the idea is that, as he said, there are only two sexes. Right. Really, literally denying the existence of transgender people. That was followed up by another executive order directing all of the federal government not to recognize the existence of transgender people in a variety of settings. Prison. There's been transgender service members are forced out of military service as we speak.

and also forbidding the federal government from spending any funds to support gender-affirming care for young people. In fact, going so far as to call this mutilation of people. So it's a, you know, this presidential administration, by contrast to the last under President Biden, has been very, very hostile to transgender youth and to transgender people generally in all sorts of ways.

States, by contrast, some states, including California, have been protective. But there is absolutely a tension that we're seeing playing out across the country. And it is very, very painful and difficult for anyone who is a transgender kid, who is a transgender person, or anybody who is a parent or has a loved one who is facing down this kind of hostility.

You know, there's a story out in the New York Times this morning which kind of frames taking this case to the Supreme Court as being a strategic mistake. On the other hand, this was a ban on care for kids, you know, in more than 20 states. How do you view the article, if you've seen it, or just the argument, if you haven't? So some people say, as the article suggests, that

It was too soon to bring this case forward to the Supreme Court or even into any court because the court wasn't ready or the country wasn't ready. And those are, you know, useful conversations to have. But as I think your question sort of opened up, this is a situation where transgender youth in Tennessee and in many other states are having this, are getting this health care now.

And the law requires their healthcare providers to wind down their medically necessary care to respond to a diagnosed condition of gender dysphoria.

So it's a very difficult situation for young people for whom this health care is lifesaving, where their doctors believe it is necessary based on the evidence. There's, of course, contestation in some circles about the evidence, and I think these debates are worth reading. But as one colleague of mine who is very familiar with the literature says,

In the opposition to gender-affirming care, there is a lot of junk science. So consumers of this information have to be very careful. And instead, what the courts are doing is wiping out the possibility of even having evidence-based care for young people in states that choose to do so.

So it's a hard, you know, these are hard issues. I wouldn't ever say they're easy. But the removal of health care that may be lifesaving is, you know, it's hard to say put that on hold. Just with our last minute here, I just want to ask legally, despite the majority sort of protestations, does this decision endanger trans people's rights more generally?

The decision raises the risk that other kinds of discrimination against trans people will be given a judicial pass, right? It will be subject to a low level of judicial review. And what that means when that happens is that if a state comes up with any reason, any sort of, you know,

what we call legitimate reason, but it's a very low bar to cross, that the state can discriminate against transgender people. Now, that's not what this ruling says. In fact, the majority went out of its way to try to avoid saying it was upholding discrimination against transgender people, saying it was only upholding this kind of line drawing by the state because of age and medical diagnosis.

So I think it's too soon to tell where we'll land, but it's a challenging time for sure. We've been talking about yesterday's Supreme Court decision upholding a Tennessee ban on gender-affirming care for young people. We've been joined by Suzanne Goldberg, professor and director of the Sexuality and Gender Law Clinic at Columbia Law School. Thank you so much for joining us, Suzanne. Thank you so much. We'll be back with more right after the break. I'm Alexis Madrigal.

Support for Forum comes from the University of San Francisco School of Management. Celebrating 100 years of partnership with the Bay Area business community, the USF School of Management connects students to the city's vibrant culture, hands-on internships, and a wealth of career opportunities. Where AI and sustainability are integrated into every facet of business education.

and where students bring innovation, ethics, and entrepreneurial leadership to a planet in need. The University of San Francisco School of Management. Change the world from here. Support for KQED Podcasts comes from Earthjustice. As a national legal nonprofit, Earthjustice has more than 200 full-time lawyers who fight for a healthy environment.

They wield the power of the law to protect people's health, preserve magnificent places and wildlife, and advance clean energy to combat climate change. Earthjustice fights in court because the Earth needs a good lawyer. Learn more about how you can get involved and become a supporter at earthjustice.org.

Welcome back to Forum. I'm Alexis Madrigal. In some circles, as trans people have become more visible, there has been a backlash that tries to present gender nonconforming people as some kind of postmodern creation. The Supreme Court ruling in Scermetti we were just talking about relies on not recognizing transgender peoples having identities that should be protected by the Equal Protection Clause.

And while it's true that trans, non-binary, genderqueer, and other identities have received more attention and that the language that many queer people use to describe themselves has changed, it is absolutely unequivocally not true that gender nonconformity is a new phenomenon for humans. And two projects that highlight these rich lineages, both here in the Bay Area and among people from many different ancestries and their creators are here with us this morning.

Caro de Robertis is the author of so many stars and oral history of trans, non-binary, genderqueer and two-spirit people of color. They're also the author of several novels. Thank you so much for joining us. It's such a pleasure to be here. Thank you.

We're also joined by Nastia Voinovskaya, who you know as an editor and reporter here with KQED Arts. She's edited a new series for the station called Trans Bay that spotlights transgender and gender diverse artists and activists who have fought for change, built community and shaped culture. Thanks so much, Nastia. Thanks for having me, Alexis. Caro, I mean, just to transition from our last segment, um,

You've just done this incredible book that draws together so much history from so many different places in the world. And we are in this moment of at least judicial backlash at the Supreme Court level and in some broader ways, too. How do you place us like in sort of the this hopeful arc of history or or maybe it's not an arc. Maybe it's not trending towards justice. But where do you place us in history?

Thank you so much, Alexis. I mean, I think the work of gathering the oral histories that comprise this book, So Many Stars, really opened up so many portals for me into the ways in which trans and gender nonconforming people have truly always existed in every culture and every race, every part of the world and every time.

of history. There is absolutely a notion in the mainstream that is enforced constantly by the media, including, as you just mentioned in the New York Times article this morning about yesterday's abominable Supreme Court decision, that transness, gender expansiveness are inventions of the young and therefore a fad that can be easily dismissed. We know that there is

Nothing further from the truth. Younger generations may have more access to more vocabulary for all of what they experience inside themselves about their true and rich and beautiful genders. But that is because of the work of previous generations who broke that ground. So the people in my book, upon interview in their 50s, 60s and 70s, and they are people who describe growing up as

Coming to see and understand their whole true gender without that vocabulary and yet finding a way to break free, to make a life, to join trans liberation movements and contribute to them and take part in them.

And through blazing acts of everyday courage, they created more room for people like me to be more possible, for young folks of present and future generations to be more possible. And I would just say that that ultimately is the work. That's where we find ourselves in an ongoing story of continuing to create more space for more people to be safe and fully alive and free and

When we experience setbacks and vicious backlash, as we are seeing right now, those are very painful moments in our collective story, but they are absolutely not the end of the story. And I just want to say that we're chatting with each other on Juneteenth.

And I want to say happy Juneteenth and that we have, you know, black trans folks in this book who are also speaking to the intersections between trans liberation and black liberation and racial justice and all of the ways that we cultivate more space for ourselves and each other in the world. We're still doing it and we are absolutely still here. Yeah. Thank you for that. You know, Nastia, the

piece of this story that here at KQED you've been working on in this Trans Bay series, right, is finding those stories of liberation and activism. And I love that. It's kind of everyday courage here in the Bay Area. I mean, why did you feel like now was the time or you wanted to do the series now?

Absolutely. Well, in addition to President Trump's executive order basically attempting to erase the existence of trans people, there have been over 900 anti-trans bills attempting to curtail all sorts of rights in state legislatures across the country just this year alone. So like Gatto mentioned,

Gender nonconformity is just a simple fact of the human experience on every continent going back thousands of years. There is evidence of gender diversity there.

And here in the Bay Area, we're in such a unique location where people have done some very, very strong advocacy that have paved the way for today's modern gay rights and LGBTQ and trans rights movements. So there are certain flashpoints that people are familiar with, but there's a rich history going back, you know, well before the AIDS epidemic, well before the 1960s. So with our series Trans Bay, I really wanted to highlight some of that. Yeah, yeah.

And, you know, we actually have someone else here in the studio with us who's actually in both projects, which is great. Donna Persona is a San Francisco resident and a trans rights activist. Welcome, Donna. Thank you for welcoming me, Alexis. I'm happy to be here today. You know, Donna, maybe let's start here. Maybe you can just tell us, what was your childhood like?

My childhood, I'm 78 years old now, and so I go back a bit. And when I was, I always knew as soon as I had more consciousness that I wasn't masculine. I was born, I was told I was a boy.

But I didn't have those features. But my father was a Baptist minister. My father was born in Mexico in 19... And he came to America by himself. No, I mean with his brother from Nuevo Leon, Monterrey, Mexico.

when he was 14 years old. And so, you know, when people ask me, this is like another subject, "Where are you from?" I'm an American, you know, I'm from Texas.

But my father became a Baptist minister. And so when I was 10 years old living in San Jose and in our home we had a library and I loved books. I always loved books. So I went to the library one day and I was looking at this big red book and it was a medical book.

And I saw a chapter on homosexuality. And I'm 10 years old. And some of the things I remember, it said it was an aberration. It wasn't normal. And that conversion was one cure or one way to treat it. But it went on to say things like,

Perhaps the child should be separated from the family. You know, it implied that it was infectious. And I, myself, I said, my parents are going to be blamed for something. And, you know, my father won't be allowed to be a Baptist minister. So that's where I created my own universe. I had secrets.

that I would not tell anyone. And, you know, you have to understand that's difficult when you have, you're only a child and there's things you're not sharing at all.

But fortunately for me, in my family, you know, I kind of identify as a Mexicana. And my experience is you're offered, you're given unconditional love. So my Baptist father, who was Christian, and my mother, the preacher's wife, never gave me an indication that there was anything wrong.

wrong or bad about me. And my siblings, neither did they. So that's where I gained my confidence and saying, I'm okay. But as soon as I left the house, which was to go to school, I say it like this, I entered a minefield. I didn't know what bombs were going to go off. And they were verbal. Luckily, I didn't get beat up.

But people would say to me, why do you walk that way? Why do you hold your arms like this? Why do you care? Why do you walk that way? Why do you hold your arms like that? No, I think one time I told, and this was friends. These were friends. And one time this girl, she said, why do you hold your arm like that when your hand is waving? I said, you know, sweetheart, I missed the tutorial video.

when you were teaching people how to hold their arms, I said, "How about this?" And I made like a fist, like I was gonna get her in the face. "How about this? Is that butch enough?"

No. So it was tough in a way. It's always so interesting, you know, people who don't believe in gender performance. Suddenly they see someone performing gender differently and suddenly they can see it suddenly. You know, Caro, I wanted to ask you about, you know, some of the stories of childhood that you have in the book.

Many of them are actually quite inspiring. I mean, given the time and the place, you know, that there were families, even at times when there wasn't the language to express things, there weren't these paths that had been there. You couldn't just go take out a book on the gender creative child. That's right. And yet parents still...

loved their children, parents still supported them. Were you surprised to find that as you interviewed more elders, that there was as much familial support as you find? Although there's obviously other stories too.

Yeah, I mean, I was really delighted to find those and I found them to be part of the greater tapestry of the sort of greater epic story of these generations of trans and gender nonconforming people of color. That, of course, every community is internally rich and not a monolith. So there's a range of stories. And I think we need everything. We need the stories that recognize and honor the incredible pain that comes with being marginalized.

you know, gender variant in a transphobic society. But we also need the stories that uplift the joy and the beauty and the possibilities of love and embrace that also go back really far. So an example in this book that I've sort of really very much carried with me in my heart is the story of Sharon Grayson, who is a black trans woman in her 70s as well, local activist,

And, you know, she tells this story of growing up in Texas.

And, you know, we do not have nearly enough credit to the beautiful church-going black ladies, cis ladies who can support their children. But she tells a story of being sat down at 14 years old and having her mom basically say, I see you and I know that you're different. And this is in the 50s in Texas.

And she says, my only sadness about this is that it's hard enough to be black in a world structured the way this one is. But I'm going to love and support you no matter what. You are my child.

And the fact that this woman could do this in Texas in the 50s should show us all that it is always possible to overcome and transcend the reductive and transphobic messages of society. It is always possible to lead with love and humanity and connection.

And then, you know, Sharon then tells the story of later fast forward. She transitions in the 60s, which again is a story that we just don't get to see enough about. And then in the 70s, she's living in L.A. She moves her mom out there and she starts making community with queer and trans people and coming home. And she can't park anywhere on her street because the street is packed with cars. So what's going on? She goes into her home and there is her mother there.

surrounded by the young queer and trans folks of color of LA and going, baby, what do you need? Do you need a snack? Have you eaten yet today? How was your day? What's going on? Okay, let's talk about it. Mothering everybody and becoming this kind of chosen family provider of maternal love and care that

That Sharon, you know, shared with me, you know, I have friends who years later told me that if I hadn't been for your mom, I might not be alive today. Because that healing in the presence of familial rejection and being sort of cast out and thrown on the street was an essential ingredient and medicine for people's well-being, which is also a reminder that

All of us can be that for other people, whether it's trans youth right now, many of whom might be struggling already with mental health consequences of watching the viciousness of this ongoing backlash, but now with the Supreme Court.

you know, decision. There's all of these reasons that youth might be struggling or that, you know, your trans and non-binary and gender non-comporting friends might be struggling. Checking in on them, you know, conveying messages of love and affirmation. It all makes a difference and it helps us all be well and be here. Yeah.

We're talking about the long history of trans people in the Bay Area and across the world. We're joined by Caro de Robertis, who is author of So Many Stars, an oral history of trans, non-binary, genderqueer, and two-spirit people of color. They're also the author of many novels, actually, now. We're joined by Nastya Voinovskaya, who is editor and reporter with KQED Arts and edited the

Trans Bay. And we've got Donna Persona as well, who's a San Francisco resident, trans rights activist. And earlier we were joined by Suzanne Goldberg, professor and director of the Sexuality and Gender Law Clinic at Columbia. And we've got Donna Persona as well, who's a San Francisco resident,

We want to hear from you. Are you trans? How do you read the arc of history on trans acceptance and rights? How has it shown up in your life? Where do you put this moment that we're in? You can give us a call. The number is 866-733-6786. That's 866-733-6786. You can email your comments and questions to forum at kqed.org. You can find us on Blue Sky, Instagram, etc.,

You know, Nastia, one of the things that I was thinking a lot about as I looked at your series is kind of the way that trans identities have come up against the laws over time, including these laws banning dressing as a gender you were not born with, you know, the...

however it was described at the time. Can you tell us a little bit more about the history of that here? Yeah, believe it or not, it was illegal to dress as a different gender from which you were assigned at birth in San Francisco until 1974. And it started really early too, didn't it? Yeah, in the 1800s. Yeah, and so...

There, trans people were routinely criminalized, picked up by police, abused, and it sort of reached a boiling point in the mid 60s in 1966 when trans women and sex workers rioted against abusive police. And by that point, um,

Trans people had rebelled against similar conditions and similar laws at some similar incidents in other cities in the country. But this one was really different because it actually led to some tangible reforms in San Francisco. So San Francisco became the first city to actually create a city office within the Department of Public Health where trans people could get access to.

to hormones and get ID cards that matched their true gender and things like that. And this was a little bit short-lived until there was more backlash in the 70s, but it did really push the movement forward. And

Donna actually wrote a play about the conference cafeteria, right? That's true, which we will talk about when we get back from the break. We're actually going to be listening to some music through the rest of the show that was engineered by Sandy Stone, a trailblazing trans woman who was a recording engineer at Olivia Records, which was an influential label in the queer communities in the 1970s.

If you want to learn more about Sandy Stone, she's of course profiled in the KQED series, Trans Bay. I'm Alexis Madrigal. We'll be back with more right after the break.

That's what you are, you're such a shooting star.

Support for Forum comes from the University of San Francisco School of Management. Celebrating 100 years of partnership with the Bay Area business community, the USF School of Management connects students to the city's vibrant culture, hands-on internships, and a wealth of career opportunities. Where AI and sustainability are integrated into every facet of business education.

and where students bring innovation, ethics, and entrepreneurial leadership to a planet in need.

The University of San Francisco School of Management. Change the world from here. Support for KQED podcasts comes from Earthjustice. As a national legal nonprofit, Earthjustice has more than 200 full-time lawyers who fight for a healthy environment. They wield the power of the law to protect people's health, preserve magnificent places and wildlife, and advance clean energy to combat climate change. Earthjustice fights in court because the Earth needs a good lawyer.

Learn more about how you can get involved and become a supporter at earthjustice.org. Welcome back to Forum. I'm Alexis Madrigal. We're talking about the history of trans people in the Bay Area as well as across the world. We're joined by Nastya Voinovskaya, who is an editor and reporter with KQED Arts, edited the series Transgender.

Trans Bay, which you can see on the KQED website. We're also joined by Donna Persona, who is a San Francisco resident and trans rights activist, and Caro de Robertis, who is author of so many stars in oral history of trans, non-binary, genderqueer, and two-spirit people of color. And

Carol, maybe you could talk a little bit about this history of two-spirit people and this sort of non-European lineages here talking about gender nonconformity. Yes, absolutely. So, you know, the inclusion of two-spirit was really incredibly important to me in this book. First of all, of course, for the rich racial representation. Certainly, we were talking earlier about how mainstream portrayals

of trans and non-binary people can presume that it's an invention of the young when of course elder trans and non-binary people are here among us all the time with plenty to say. But also that it has existed in every race and culture and that often the mainstream will focus on white folks.

And so two of the two spirit people in this book, there are 20 narrators in this book altogether. And among the indigenous folks are Landa Lakes, who is an absolute icon here in San Francisco, a drag queen. And that's her drag name, Landa Lakes, which already kind of integrates into it, you know, a political satire and a kind of send up, right, of the Landa people.

The Land O'Lakes, you know, Native American icon, you know, on butter. And, you know, and right, right, right. And, you know, and she's a real visionary. They are a real visionary. And and and, you know, they talk about their pronoun fluidity and their gender fluidity and all of the ways that they.

experience within their indigeneity as entirely integrated with a very natural relationship to their gender. Joan Benoit is another two-spirit person in the book who also identifies as a butch woman, who, you know, at the very beginning of the book, early on in the chapter about finding glimmers of your true gender in childhood, tells a story about her mother not being accepting

of her gender nonconformity and her masculinity as a child. But then having this great grandmother who came to visit from the reservation, saw her at seven years old and said, oh, this one's a special one. You need to pay attention. And she said, I felt seen in that moment. And I've carried that moment with me my whole life. And to me, that connects.

with the knowledge of two-spirit truth, that this is something that is ancient, that has always been part of our indigenous cultures. In her case, she's an Ojibwe woman. And different, of course, different indigenous identities are, you know, of course, not a monolith and incredibly rich. So they all have their own ways of relating to third gender or to expansive gender, but

But she says, you know, these are old teachings that we need to bring back. In other words, these are ancient things that have been known within our cultural lineages and were silenced or erased by colonization and forced assimilation, but are actually entirely true. Now, the term Two-Spirit is something that is reserved respectfully for Indigenous people. So Indigenous people have made it very clear over the Basque Republic

decades. You know, this is a term that's for us. It's not for non-Indigenous people to use, which is important to respect. And I think those of us who, like myself, are not Native American or Indigenous can still draw learning from the existence of that lineage to just kind of hold that perspective that, in fact, this has existed in every culture and in every ancestry all

of us have ancestors who were trans. There's absolutely no question, statistically. And so we can all draw on that lineage. And then in terms of non-biological ancestry, I just want to say, like, the elders in this book are

stand as potential ancestors, potential guides for anyone who is seeking their own relationship to their own whole gender or gender liberation. Donna Persona, who is sitting right next to me here in the studio and who generously shared her stories and insights for this book.

says in the chapter on chosen family, you know, I'm a trans mother to so many people. And I'm also, you know, see me as an earth mother. My mothering is here for you, for anyone. It's a pretty incredible offering. Yeah. Thank you. Thanks, Donna. Yeah. Let's bring in Lindy in Berkeley. Welcome, Lindy.

Hi there. I'm coming with a different perspective. I'm an elder. I'm 81. I'm white, and I was raised in a privileged household. Growing up, I always knew I was a girl, and so I'm a cis woman. But

In the 1950s, I want to give a shout out to my parents because I was a tomboy. When I was 10, had my hair cut short and shorter than most boys, went to Girl Scout camp to have short hair.

dressed in a boy bathing suit and fought boys and insisted I was a girl, but I wanted the privilege of boys. And my parents even put up with me and other people thinking I was a boy when we traveled in Europe and I wore lederhosen and everyone thought I was a boy and they never said that I had to be a girl. And

I want to give a shout out to parents whose children are maybe like you're talking about a two spirit, but know their one gender or another, but have a lot of the other spirit in them. And to just thank my parents for letting me be the person I was. Yeah. Yeah. Hey, Lindy, appreciate that. Yeah.

Thanks so much for that call. We also have Rishi on the Discord writes to say, I want to highlight a star of electronic chip design, Professor Lynn Conway. Only in her retirement did Professor Conway reveal that she transitioned to being a woman early in her career. Every electronics engineer like me is handed a book.

Introduction to VLSI Systems by Mead and Conway. It's truly fundamental work on which Silicon Valley is built. As a techie and a human, I have deep reverence for this work and great respect for the life she lived.

Now, did you want to tell us a little bit about Sandy Stone, just since we heard the music earlier? Maybe tell us, fill in the story. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Another technological visionary. But yeah, Sandy is a living legend. She's 88 years old and she started her career in the 60s as a sound engineer working with greats like Jimi Hendrix and the Grateful Dead.

Crosby, Stills, and Nash. After she moved to the Bay Area from the East Coast and transitioned, she became the lead engineer at Olivia Records. And so they were a lesbian separatist record label. And they basically were making the soundtrack to the second wave feminist movement at the time, creating songs of women's empowerment. And so Sandy joined the collective. They knew she was trans. They embraced her.

But slowly there started to be a backlash within the feminist community and it got pretty bad. It escalated to death threats. And eventually Sandy was able to get the last word when she was getting her Ph.D. at UC Santa Cruz and she wrote a really influential paper about.

called The Empire Strikes Back, a post-transsexual manifesto. And it really widened the gates before there was sort of this notion that if you're trans, you're transitioning into the opposite sex. And there was still this notion of like a very rigid binary. And Sandy kind of blew that wide open and showed that gender can actually be more of a spectrum and that trans people can define their own experience and that their only goal shouldn't or doesn't have to be

to just like quote-unquote pass as the quote-unquote opposite sex. And yeah, because prior to that, doctors would really only approve people for hormones and surgeries if they basically thought that they were going to be like a conforming heterosexual member of society after they transitioned. And Sandy basically said that that doesn't work for all people. Yeah.

You know, Donna, this kind of rhythm of extension of rights, extension of liberation and the kind of backlash is a part of this history. As someone who's lived through some of these waves, what's your wisdom for people who are maybe going through one of these waves for the first time?

My advice would be to move forward with the knowledge that you belong. You belong.

and that to just want rights that everyone else is offered. And I've kind of demanded that all along. And I see and I tell younger people, which is many people, that are pursuing a similar life,

that one way to know that they belong is we come, you touched on it, Carl, a lineage. There has been people like us forever. And I want them, you also mentioned how the young like to think it's an invention of their selves or the greater public thinks that.

But I tell young people, accept and pursue your past and know that you come from a lineage because that tells you and the world that you belong. You know, anyone with a past...

has a tradition. You come from a tradition. And right now, I'm experiencing, and we've talked about it already today, the notion that we don't exist. And so I want to encourage young people to

to learn the history as much as possible and say, of course I belong. I'm a part of something that happened a thousand years ago, and here, let me give you this history and tell you about that. And not to...

lean into the notion that if you, the cis world or the heterosexual world, if you accept me, then I'm okay. No, no. I reject that. And, you know, so I'm also a teacher. I'm invited to institutions like one, for example, is I'm invited to

retirement homes or old age homes where they are now accepting transgender people. And so I am invited to speak to the staffs. And, you know, like somebody that works there one time there on a panel said, well, what's your sexual preference? See, and what I understand about that question is that

I've made a choice. And so I think I try to be funny. I say, if you ask me what flavor ice cream is my preference, I'll say chocolate. But my sexuality and who I am is not a preference. So I want to tell you that. Things like that. So there's this language that I've been hearing for 60 years today

that implies that I don't belong. Like, I get questions like, are you looking for acceptance? No. No, I'm not looking for acceptance. I'm looking for my rights. And things like that. Like, no, when you accept me, you know, I can be mean sometimes. I'll say, you know, the real question is whether I accept you.

You know, why are you saying that? That's an aggression. So that's what I tell younger people. And I want to say this one thing also. I have young people who are attempting a transgender life. And somebody said to me, more than once they'll say, my family, what did they say,

rejected me, they disowned me. And they said, did that happen to you? I said, well, you know what, sweetheart? Nobody ever owned me. So you sound... I'm sorry that you feel disowned, but they don't own you. And I don't want people to walk this earth thinking that...

You know, searching for acceptance and not being disowned. That language to me is like victim. And I, for one, Donna Bressona, I'm not a victim. I'm not a victim. You know, a victim, when you agree that you're a victim or you live that, the powers that be say, okay.

I want you to, you know, feel like a victim. You're a victim. Victims don't accomplish much and they don't have power. Stuff like that. Yeah. Caro, I assume that there are a variety of perspectives that you encountered in this book on violence.

that we're talking about of backlash. Do you want to add anything to what Donna said there? I mean, I think that was all very beautiful and you can see me nodding as I listen to this about, you know, you belong. You don't need to seek acceptance from the outside. You have it from within. We can be our whole magnificent selves along the way. And you are part of something greater. I mean, we are all part of this vast community

this vast, to switch metaphors, this vast tapestry, this epic of a story in which, you know, our beautiful genders, you know, all have space. And we are all fighting for room for that space. If you feel like, wow, I have to fight for my rights. Wow, I get vilified or demeaned or bullied or, you know,

Or just have these little moments. I experienced microaggressions being on National Book Tour with so many stars, transphobic microaggressions. So, yes, they happen. It's real. It's part of the reality of living as a gender marginalized person. But it also is part of the reality that we get to live these beautiful, rich lives. Right.

connected to a greater, deeper story. And we are all part of making the future. I also, part of the reason I created this book is because when I sat in front of these 20 elders like Donna, I was constantly inspired and nourished by the things that they had to say.

And, you know, there is a whole chapter in the book that is thoughts for younger generations. And I needed to create that chapter because there was so much love and encouragement and wisdom and insight being poured out by these folks for those folks. And, you know, I would just say, you know, the last chapter of the book is Visions for the Future, where people really speak to the fact that, you know, like the AIDS crisis happened.

That was an experience of a time of vicious backlash against trans and queer people. It was very clear the government did not want us to exist or survive. And this generation has stories to tell about how they fought back. And these are reminders that we are still in that journey and we can fight.

we can resist and we can keep moving forward. Keep, keep, keep your eyes on the prize, you know? Right. And Nastia, I know that is also, um, one of the stories in the series. We also have a story as well on, uh, Teresita La Campesina, uh, who you're hearing right now, this ranchera singer who was an influential artist on the 16th street scene. There's so much more in the book, so much more in the Trans Bay series. Um,

We're not going to get to it all. We're out of time. Nastia Voinovskaya, editor and reporter with KQED Arts. Thank you so much for joining us. Thanks for having me. And folks can read Trans Bay at kqed.org slash trans history. Perfect. We've also been joined by Caro de Robertis, author of So Many Stars. Thank you so much.

What a joy. Thank you. And Donna Persona, a San Francisco resident and trans rights activist. Thank you so much. Thank you. And may I say, I encourage people to see the play Compton's Cafeteria. Thank you so much. I'm Alexis Magical. Stay tuned for another hour of Forum Ahead.

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