What Are Your Hopes for the Next Pope?
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From KQED in San Francisco, I'm Mina Kim. Coming up on Forum, what are your hopes for the next pope? Already speculation is rampant over who might succeed Pope Francis, who died Monday. Though the gathering to elect the new pope or conclave won't happen for several days, this hour will explain the selection process and look at who the contenders are to be the next pope, whether they'll share Francis' emphasis on the poor and migrants and the environment, or if they'll be the next pope.

And we'll learn why this time, a California Cardinal won't be part of the conclave. Join us. Welcome to Forum. I'm Nina Kim.

Hundreds of thousands from across the globe, including President Trump, Joe Biden, and former Speaker Nancy Pelosi, are expected to attend the funeral of Pope Francis tomorrow, a ceremony said to be more modest than his predecessors, in keeping with Francis's simpler style and focus on humility. Days later, cardinals will begin the process of electing the next pope. And this hour, we'll look at who might succeed Francis, whether he'll continue his legacy of openness and center the poor and the climate.

Pope Francis oversaw an increase to 1.4 billion in the Catholic population over his 12 years. He was 88 years old. Joining me first from Rome is Fr. Jostrum Isaac Carithidum, Chair of Philosophy of Science and Director of the Institute of Social and Political Sciences at the Salesian Pontifical University of Rome. Fr. Josh, welcome to Forum.

Thank you. Thank you. Good evening. And good morning, by the way. Yeah, for us. Morning. You work so closely with Pope Francis on climate issues, and we really appreciate you taking the time to be with us, as many mourners pay their respects to Pope Francis. I was wondering what you're thinking and feeling today, Father Josh.

Yeah, no, thank you. First of all, thanks to you for hosting us, and thanks to the listeners. I think it's a wonderful way of respecting the person, the legacy of our beloved Pope Francis. And just a few seconds ago, it crossed my mind that exactly 12 years ago, on the 13th of March, around this time, it's evening time in Rome,

we listened to the news that a new Pope was elected. And it was someone who, like, no one expected. I mean, he was not among the top candidates, you know. So, like, I remember we were struggling to find out who is this person. So we started Googling and finding out. So, you know, that's what comes to my mind. Then a week later, we had the inaugural mass demonstration

the inauguration of his pontificate, and everyone was touched, touched by his humility, by his compassion. And he said, just like Saint Francis of Assisi, we need to take care. We need to take care of God's creation. We need to take care of one another.

So, you know, what reminds, what I remember of Pope Francis is this compassionate person, you know, who really embraced the entire world, the entire planet, especially the most vulnerable people with a huge, huge heart. And may he rest in peace.

I imagine the things you describe are really what guided his approach to the earth, to the environment, and addressing climate change. What did Pope Francis feel was the way to address it, as you, Father Josh, have been known as his right-hand man on climate? Yeah, yeah. You know, that's another reason I feel so very grateful, because, you know, I've been working on environmental issues for nearly 30 years now.

And I remember at one stage, even I began to get frustrated with our politicians, but also with the church leaders. You know, I thought we were not giving sufficient importance to the environment. And even a pope like Pope Benedict, who was called the Green Pope, didn't really issue any major documents.

Then out of the blue comes Pope Francis, and imagine, he takes the name of Saint Francis of Assisi, who is known for love of creation, love for the poor.

So that was a huge, you know, big surprise, joyful surprise, I would say. Then, you know, he came out with a beautiful document called Laudato Si. That goes back to him, a sort of song that St. Francis composed himself.

way back in 1224 and that hymn begins with the words "Laudato si" in Italian which means praise in the Umbrian dialect you know which means praise be to God.

So using that title, Pope Francis came out with a very major document. Then he began a center, a sector for ecology at the Vatican. And I had the blessing to be the first coordinator of this section. So I was able to assist Pope Francis. So I feel so grateful that, you know, God gave me this opportunity to be here.

to be assisting this great person who, as I said, embraced the entire world and the entire creation. And I remember hardly a fortnight after Laudato Si was published,

Dale Jamieson, who teaches at New York State University, he wrote that Laudato Si' is the most important environmental text of the 21st century.

And now looking back, I think that was the prophecy that has come true. Laudato si has had a huge, huge impact. And one thing that comes to my mind is when Ban Ki Moon says,

the former United Nations Secretary General. Just after he retired, he was making a tour of the world capitals, meeting people, meeting heads of state to thank them. And he came to Rome, obviously he came to the Vatican, and

And after meeting with Pope Francis, he came to our department to meet with Cardinal Peter Turkson, our former head, and myself. I was privileged to be part of that small group. And, you know, the first thing he told us was that this morning, I thanked Pope Francis for Laudato Si. And I told him, thanks to your holiness, this document, that a few months later, we are in 2015,

that the Paris Agreement was possible. You know, to hear from Ban Ki-moon that he thanked Pope Francis for Laudato Si and attributed that we managed to come out, sign the Paris Agreement.

thanks to the colossal contribution of Pope Francis. And I've heard the same thing from Nicholas Stern, you know, the World Bank chief economist and many others. So we're just flattering Pope Francis. And Pope Francis is

He was politically very astute. And, you know, so six months prior to that, he was traveling to Sri Lanka and he said, I'm preparing a document. In fact, as soon as he became Pope, he started working on this document. And he said, I want to time it in such a way that it will come at least, you know, six months before

before the Paris summit so that it can have an impact. So that timing was perfect, you know. So, yeah, so feeling so grateful that that happened, you know. And so he has hugely contributed to changing the direction of how we talk about the environment, how we talk about climate. Yeah.

So, Father Josh, if the next pope shares Francis' concern for the environment, what do you think he'll have to do to make change or the changes that you and Pope Francis want to see? Yeah. No, I honestly wish and I think like, you know, Pope Francis was like, you know, was a watershed. I mean, I don't think church or society can go back, you know.

And so I think that the new Pope, whoever he would be, will carry on in the footsteps of Pope Francis. And I would say it's even urgent because, you know, for two factors.

One is, you know, and Laudato Si is a very topical, very relevant document because with every year, the Pope's published documents to respond to a challenge. And, you know, the document usually serves and then we forget about the document. But not in the case of Laudato Si because with every year passing,

The summers, we are having the droughts. And I just think of the wildfires that you had in California and around the world. You know, we are seeing signs from around the world. So this document with every year passing will become more and more important. Not just a document, but this concern.

And the second reason I think it's so important that the church and the new pope carries on this leadership, because this is a moment we are failing in leadership. We are failing in leadership at the political level, at the economic level, and very sad to say, at almost at every level, you know, like, you know, we have had administrations, governments, strategists,

threatening or already like pulling out of the Paris Agreement, which is the only thing we have at the international level and the businesses in Europe, in the US, around the world, this is happening. So I really hope that the new Pope will continue and not only continue but intensify because at this moment, I think,

Faith leaders have a huge responsibility because they can touch people's lives. And it's interesting, the Pew research done in the U.S. that said that 83% of humanity belongs to one religious tradition or another. So faith leaders still can influence. So I hope the next scope will

ride on the popularity of Pope Francis and the goodwill that he created and become, I used to call Pope Francis the Gandhi of today because he could inspire people. And today at one point, preparing for our conversation, this caption which you can find under the statue of Gandhi in front of the Parliament House in New Delhi is

It's in Hindi and English. I say the English version. It says, my life is my message. And so that was what Pope Francis was. I mean, his life was his message. And I hope that the next Pope will carry on. And yeah, and it's vital that he does.

And if I might conclude my answer, the advantage is that Pope Francis in a way prepared the terrain

You know, environment is no more a sideline issue. You know, Pope Francis led the world, you know, the faith leaders in Abu Dhabi, the Islamic leaders came out with their own document. Almost all other faith traditions, the Hindus, the Muslims, the rabbis, you know, after Laudato Si, everyone has come out with their Laudato Si, you know.

Pope Francis has prepared the terrain, and I think we can build on this momentum. Father Jostrom, Isaac Greethedum, remembering the man he worked closely with on environmental issues. Pope Francis, thank you so much for talking with us. Thank you. Thank you. We'll have more after the break and hear from you, our listeners, what your hopes are for who the next pope will be and what he'll do. Stay with us. You're listening to Forum. I'm Mina Kim. 24 Chefs.

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You're listening to Forum. I'm Mina Kim. We're talking this hour about the death of Pope Francis and who might succeed Francis, whether he'll continue his legacy of openness and center the poor and the climate and

And you, our listeners, are invited to join the conversation. What are your hopes for who the next pope will be and what he'll do? What are your questions about the selection process for the next pope? What did Pope Francis mean to you? What do you think is Pope Francis's legacy? And who do you think might succeed Francis, or

Have hopes we'll succeed, Frances. The email address is forum at kqed.org. Find us on our social channels, Blue Sky, Facebook, Instagram, or Threads, or you can call us at 866-733-6786, 866-733-6786. Joining us now is Bree Jensen, host of the long-running Pontifax podcast. Bree, welcome to Forum. Thank you so much for having me.

Jeff Geuhen is also with us, sociology professor studying religion at UCLA. Jeff, really glad to have you too. I'm thrilled to be here. So, Jeff, let me ask you, what is the influence a pope can have on global matters? Earlier, we were talking with Father Joshua Isaac Carithodom, and he really seemed to feel that they could have a very powerful one. I think a lot of people think of the pope, okay, he led, you know, a single religious population. But what more does a pope have with regard to influence?

Yeah, I mean, it's a great question. And it's, the Pope is such a singular and honestly kind of weird figure for me as a socialist religion, because there's just nothing else like it in any other religious tradition where you have one person sort of in charge of a whole religious tradition that's this big. And that just necessarily puts a lot of weight within that human being. And so, you know, it's

There is an incredible kind of symbolic power in what the Pope does and so I don't think it's wrong to say that John Paul the second for example had a very significant role in ending communism or at least pushing the Soviet Union

to have to significantly rethink how it does what it does and to think of John Paul II as a real enemy and a real challenge to its goals. And I think that, as we were talking about before, Francis really did push the importance of the environment in ways that the Catholic Church historically hasn't really done in a way that other religions have. And so the Pope...

can have a real power as a central religious leader. And I think one of the reasons that Francis was so effective for a lot of people is... there is, you know, something of a disconnect between the simplicity of Jesus and the Gospels and the sort of

Ornate wealth of the Vatican and Francis kind of called attention to that in ways that made a lot of non Catholics and non Christians pay attention And and get kind of excited about it. So I can't tell you how many Non Catholics and non Christians would come up to me as a scholar of religion and say, you know that Francis guy He's kind of interesting. I kind of like what he's doing and

And so I think that that speaks to the need for a sort of central religious figure. And I think the closest parallel we have is someone like the Dalai Lama, who also a lot of people listen to. And they're not necessarily going to change their religious beliefs, but they will pay attention to what's being said. And especially in a modern media environment where, you know, attention is in such short supply, that's pretty important. Brie, Father Josh was remembering when

Francis was elected. Can you just remind us how history making his election was? Oh, it's absolutely incredible when we look back, because after 12 years, we've become very familiar with Francis and comfortable with Francis. But he is absolutely history making in so many ways. First, he's the first non-European pope in over 1300 years.

So that itself was a massive, massive shift. He's the first pope from the Americas. He is the first pope who is a Jesuit. He also was the first pope to take a new name since the 700s. So right off the bat, Francis showed us that he was going to be different. He was going to make history. He was going to break with tradition.

Yeah, and so big shoes to fill. But for the selection process, I mean, we have the funeral tomorrow, Brie, but when will the conclave likely begin? So we can expect the conclave to begin somewhere between May 6th and 11th, because it is mandated to occur between 15 and 20 days after the death of a pope. And this is, of course, to allow all of the cardinals from all over the world who will be our electors for the new pope to get to Rome.

And so that is generally where we will see that happen. We don't have an official date yet. They haven't set one, but it will be within that window. And so in broad strokes, how does it work? Was the movie Conclave accurate in depicting the process?

You know, I have to give the movie some credit because it was a fairly faithful representation of what we can expect to see and how the process has been regulated. So I give it a lot of credit for its accuracy.

Including up to the point where in the movie they are talking about being worried about lasers being pressed against the windows to read the vibrations and get secret messages out. That was, in fact, a concern, I believe, at the 2005 Conclave. But the process itself has been regulated since the 13th century. Yeah.

It was first mandated after the 1268 conclave, which took three full years for the cardinals to elect a pope. And so after that point, there was a papal bull, ubi curriculum, issued by the pope in 1271 that mandated that the cardinals must be locked inside until they reach a conclusive vote. And if they...

proceed too far, they will be limited in their food and water as well. Wow. They had to give them some motivation. Well, you know, there is a cutoff age to vote in the conclave 80. Right? I don't know if that is part of the reason. But But yeah, tell us about the cutoff age.

Yes, this is actually a really interesting detail because it's relatively new and it's one of the only organizations on the planet that has an upper threshold for voting. And so this comes from Pope Paul the... Sorry, Pope...

Pope Paul VI, and it was issued in 1970. And this was in part due to, aside from wanting to ensure that we had a vibrant and active papacy, the things that would actually make voting dynamic and having the voice of the current church represented. Part of this was dealing with the fact that as cardinals age and their health declines, coming to Rome and being part of this very locked in, very restricted,

rigorous, structured policy was going to be very difficult for them. So once you hit the age of 80, you are no longer allowed to participate in the conclave. And Jeff, I understand also that there won't be a California cardinal in the conclave this year. How did that happen? Well, yes. So it's

This is subject to some debate. So there is the term for whether or not an archdiocese or a diocese has a cardinal is it was called Cardinal C. And there are what we think of in the United States as traditional cardinal cities, which are usually big cities where the archbishop of that city, just by nature of representing a big city, kind of becomes a cardinal. That archbishop becomes a cardinal. So traditionally, that's usually New York City.

Chicago, Washington, D.C., and L.A. But our Archbishop, José H. Gómez, despite having been here since 2011, has not become a cardinal. And so there's a lot of debate about why that is. People say it's because he's a member of Opus Dei and more conservative than Francis is. Actually,

The bishop who consecrated him as a bishop, Charles Chaput of Philadelphia, is also seen as, and I think correctly, as a very conservative critic of Francis. And Philadelphia is also often...

a C, and he also has never been named a cardinal. And so, this is an interesting and tricky thing. Although, we should be clear that there is actually going to be a Californian, two Californians there. And so, Robert McElroy was made a cardinal when he was Bishop of San Diego. And I'm not sure, I don't think that's ever actually happened before, that San Diego got a cardinal.

But in March of 2025, he was appointed Archbishop of Washington, D.C., which is a very typical Cardinalcy. So he'll be representing D.C. But, you know, he's from San Francisco. He's a San Francisco priest. And also Roger Mahoney is 89. And so he's the former Archbishop of Los Angeles.

He and Brie might be able to speak to this better than I can from what I understand he can Participate as an observer and sort of speak to people at the Conclave, but he can't actually vote But I don't know if he'll even be want to be at the Conclave or not But he will be involved in the funeral actually be involved in closing Francis's coffin Which is a very big honor and he was for one to understand he was

in a lot of touch with Francis throughout his papacy. Yeah. Bree, you want to add anything about a California cardinal not being in the voting conclave?

Well, certainly I can speak to what he was saying about Roger Mahoney because Roger Mahoney is actually banned from ministry for his handling of the sex abuse crisis. So though he will be present, he is technically considered retired and is not supposed to speak on the matter. Oh, right. Yes. And then, oh, I meant to say as well that this has been the first time

that a cardinal here, I have this in my notes, a cardinal has not, sorry, an LA, um, an LA archbishop has not been on the, uh,

In 1958, there was James Francis McIntyre, Archbishop of L.A., and he was the first American colonel from the West. And so it was 1939 was the last time there was not an L.A. The Archbishop of L.A. was not voting in a conclave. So, wow. So California has been represented since 1939 until... Since 1958. 1939, we did not do it.

Oh, I see. Okay. Got it. Got it. Well, let me go to caller Grant in Sacramento who's on the line. Hi, Grant. Join us.

Hi, Mina. Thank you for taking my call. I'm calling because I would hope the press and the rest of us emphasize also the fact that Pope Francis said some important things about peace, about nonviolence as an important part of teaching in the Church, and also nuclear abolition with the Treaty for the Prohibition of Nuclear Weapons, which he

thoroughly endorsed and spoke about. Unfortunately, we don't all hear quite so much about this, and I'd like to at least emphasize the importance of this for all of us. Thanks, Grant, for doing that. And Bree, I hear you nodding as well.

Absolutely. This is one thing when Father Josh was talking, I was reflecting on because I come to Pope Francis as a non-Catholic, and my interest in the papacy has been purely historical and looking at the roles of the Pope throughout history, which is a massively diverse, interesting, and

absolute rollercoaster of a story, really. But Pope Francis in particular has been a principal inspiration for what we do on Pontifax because he had such a lasting and important impact on the secular population of the world. He reached out and connected with people who were not of the religion or maybe have no experience with the religion in such an inspiring and impactful way that there were so many people who had experience

very strong anti-religious views who looked at him and still saw the good that he was doing in the world for exactly those reasons. For his care of the poor, for his commitment to peace, for his commitment to the environment, laudato si. These are hugely impactful things for everyone, not just the faithful. So Jeff, I understand that

80% of the eligible cardinals to vote for the next pope are Francis appointees. So does that mean we're likely to see someone who shared Pope Francis's approach to the church? Well, maybe and maybe not. And so there's two things to remember here. One is that, you know, Francis was elected by a bunch of people appointed by two consecutive conservative popes, right? And so that wasn't necessarily an expected thing. And the second thing is that

Yes, Francis was appointed, as we talked about earlier with our own L.A. Archbishop, Francis is appointing or not appointing cardinals based on certain ideological commitments, perhaps. But also, he's really just trying to find people outside of the mainstream and really trying to reflect the global nature of the church. And so quite a few of his appointments, especially across Africa and Asia and Oceania, are really just trying to

center people who are from areas that are historically underrepresented in the Vatican. And that doesn't necessarily mean they share the politics of Francis. And also, it's important to remember that there's no necessary reason to link environmentalism with support for gay marriage, for example. I mean, that's a connection that happens in the United States, but it's not necessarily a connection that happens in Sub-Saharan Africa.

or other places. So the conservative liberal mapping that we sort of take for granted in the United States is not necessarily reflected in the global church. That's a good point. Brie, I'm curious who you are paying attention to in terms of then who you think are the top cardinals who could become the next pope. Definitely. So one thing I do want to add on that

onto this idea of representing people who are not generally represented in the church, it's important to note that this is going to be our most globally diverse conclave in history. There are over 71 countries being represented in this electoral body. So he has very successfully been able to do that. As far as who I am watching and who I think is at least likely and interesting to

I think we need to give some credit to someone like Togle because Togle was very much considered a protege of Francis, someone who has a very similar ideology but also represents a whole new aspect of the church that hasn't gotten that level of representation yet. He would be, one, relatively young compared to most of the cardinals who are considered papabile, which is the word for papable or likely to be cardinals. Mm-hmm.

And to have someone who is the first Filipino pope could really have a different impact on the church and represent that exactly Francis's goal of having a greater, diverse, more global church. And then on the conservative side, who would mark a shift from Francis that you think is a top contender, Brie?

In terms of top contenders and conservative leaning cardinals, I think the most likely would be someone like Erdo from Hungary, who represents a very traditional conservative view. Certainly we could go past that and talk about Burke, who represents probably the hardest of the conservative movement, but he's also American. So there is a lot of skepticism when we talk about the likelihood of an American pope. Really? Yeah.

Could I ask a question? Bree, what about Robert Serra? Serra is an interesting case because he is certainly very popular amongst a certain branch. But I wonder if the way that he associated himself with Benedict and how that...

sort of led to his own demotion and sort of lesser relevance within the papacy of Francis might hurt him. He's also a fair bit older. He's just squeaking into this conclave before he turns 80 next month. So,

Someone who, if they're looking for more of that vibrancy in the church, that might work against him, but he is certainly a notable name in the conservative side of the church. And when we say conservative, do we mean socially conservative? Do we mean sort of in terms of their interpretation of church doctrine? Yeah.

A little bit of both, generally speaking. So Sarah would represent a very doctrinally, actually Erdo as well, they're very doctrinally conservative. What they would discuss in terms of their leanings would be more, I represent the traditional tradition.

interpretation of church doctrine, right? So they are not very keen on Francis's more progressive moves to embrace, say, LGBTQ people and whatnot, but they really believe in translating quite literally the doctrine that's been set out.

Right.

or what you think is Pope Francis's legacy. And what are your questions about the selection process for the next pope and who might succeed Francis? Email forum at kqed.org, find us on Blue Sky, Facebook, Instagram, or Threads at KQED Forum, or call us at 866-733-6786. Again, 866-733-6786. More after the break. I'm Mina Kim.

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You're listening to Forum. I'm Mina Kim. We're talking about who Pope Francis' successor might be and whether they'll share his emphasis on the poor, migrants, the environment, and on nonviolence. Here he is speaking about global conflict on Easter Sunday, his last message. Dear brothers and sisters, Merry Easter!

And Francis's master of ceremonies went on to say for the Pope, reading the Pope's statement, I express my closeness to the sufferings of Christians in Palestine and Israel and to all the Israeli people and the Palestinian people. The growing climate of anti-Semitism throughout the world is worrisome, yet at the same time I think of the people of Gaza and its Christian community in particular, where the terrible conflict continues to cause death and destruction and to create a dramatic and deplorable humanitarian situation.

May the risen Christ grant Ukraine, devastated by the war, his Easter gift of peace, and encourage all parties involved to pursue efforts aimed at achieving a just and lasting peace.

You, our listeners, are sharing what Pope Francis meant to you and what your hopes are for who the next pope will be and what he'll do. And this listener writes, I grew up Catholic and really struggled to connect with the church's approach to women, queer people, and other issues. Then in college, I was introduced to the Jesuit approach to service work and finally found common ground between my values and the Catholic Church. I believe Pope Francis also came from a Jesuit background. Can you talk about how this informed his perspective? He did, Bree. He was Jesuit.

Yes, he absolutely was. And I think that this is a huge marker in the legacy and the influence that he had as Pope because one of the things that is so important to the Jesuit order is the idea of asceticism and walking together with people. And so Francis has always used that level of inspiration and service to people to represent who he is.

when he was the Archbishop of Buenos Aires, he was known as the slum bishop because he would cook for himself, clean for himself, take the bus and minister to people in difficult places. And we see this continue throughout his entire papacy

Francis called prisoners every day of his papacy. He visited people in prison. He visited people in difficult situations. He traveled to more places.

quote unquote, dangerous and struggling places than any pope that has come before him. And we really see his commitment to service. Actually, one of my favorite things about the whole of Pope Francis's papacy was that he was so committed to being with the people that in his early papacy, he snuck out of the Vatican so much that the Swiss Guard actually had to extend their membership as his personal bodyguards to keep him safe.

So I can't think of anything more walking together with people than the Pope sneaking out to hang out with them. Yeah. If I could add to this, I actually almost became a Jesuit in another life. Um, and I, uh,

I think that one of the really key things for the Jesuits is this idea of discernment and constantly sort of thinking about and sort of imagining oneself with Christ and imagining oneself in the Gospels and doing that with others. And this really marks...

Francis' commitment to the synods, sort of the meetings of the bishops, and including this really big synod on synodality and on how we do conversations, how we do meetings. And this was really historically important because it let lay people and even women vote instead of just bishops. And this has been a criticism from both the right and the left in terms of church politics.

politics from the right because he's sort of having these conversations that the right argues leads to confusion, leads to sort of bringing up issues that people thought were settled. And from the left, because there's been some reflections after Francis's death that it was really mostly just talk and that a lot of church teaching hasn't changed as much as they would have liked it to have changed. I would disagree with that a little bit, but they're not entirely wrong either. So there's still no women priests, there's still no

approval of gay marriage, et cetera, et cetera. And so this has been an interesting distinction. I did want to talk to you about that because the sister was talking about how they were struggling with the church's approach to queer people and so on. And Francis certainly was not afraid to shake up the church and especially how it treated LGBTQ plus people or those who supported abortion rights as well. Though we should probably put that in its proper context, right, Jeff?

Right. So, you know, the most famous quote from Francis is, is who am I to judge when asked about a gay person? And that that I think was misunderstood by some as it's OK. Whereas I think the proper understanding of this is Francis saying, I'm a sinner. This person is a sinner. We're all sinners. And so it really didn't say that gay sex wasn't a sin. But just remember that Francis is.

this deeply pastoral person. It was extremely important for him to sort of recognize we're all sinners and to be there with people no matter what and never really to abandon anyone. Um... And I think that was misread by some on the left as accepting of-- Actually, I think it was misread by both the left and the right as accepting of gay sex as permissible in the Catholic tradition, which Francis never really said. He did...

support civil unions. He never supported gay marriage and he made it very clear that marriage is between a man and a woman. In terms of women, he definitely, he made it actually formally acceptable for there to be women lecturers and women altar servers, which have happened for a long time despite my Catholic grandma's deep frustration. And it is, and then that's sort of formally allowed. He also appointed,

And Brie can speak to this better than I can, but he's appointed a woman to be the head of the Vatican and another woman to a really important position in the Vatican in charge of basically all religious orders. And so, you know, he's certainly done a lot to elevate women, but, you know, a lot of women were really hoping at least for there to be female deacons, for which a lot of people argue there is historical precedent. And he appointed sort of two women

commissions to study this, but ultimately never approved it. We're talking with Jeff Gewin, sociology professor studying religion at UCLA, and Bree Jensen, host of the long-running Pontifex podcast. And with you, our listeners, telling us how you are feeling about the death of Pope Francis and who might succeed Pope Francis. Of course, the funeral will be tomorrow. Bree, can you tell us what we'll see? Because I understand it'll be more modest than funerals past.

Absolutely. This is actually going to mark quite a strong break from tradition for how papal funerals go. Francis and his master of ceremonies have made it very, very clear. There was actually a whole order

released in 2024 completely changing how papal funerals are conducted to emphasize this fact that the papal funeral is the funeral of a pastor, not a sovereign. And this is something that he really, really wanted emphasized in his own funeral. So what we're going to see is going to look very different than what we've seen before

We're going to see a very, a very serious stripping down of luxury as well as even presentation. One thing that Francis made very clear was that he did not want to appear on a catafalque, which is a sort of raised wooden platform. He did not want any extra ornamentation. He even went as far as to say he did not want pillows in his coffin. Hmm.

And the coffin itself is an interesting piece of the puzzle because during the papal funeral, there is usually a sort of ceremony of three coffins that the Pope is generally laid into.

So first, the one that you would have seen him lying in state in is a cypress coffin, and this is to represent spiritual humility. That generally is then lowered into a coffin of zinc or lead that is used primarily for preservation and protection. Then that second coffin is placed into an external coffin of oak or pine or elm or whatever represents the papal dignity.

However, Francis has changed this entirely. He does not want this. What he said is I will take one coffin. You can line it with zinc for protection, but I do not want this whole ritual to play out at my funeral. I will be very simple.

And he has also conducted that with his burial choices as well, because Pope Francis, unlike the last nine popes, will not be buried in the Vatican beneath St. Peter's Basilica, and instead will be buried at Santa Maria Maggiore in a space that used to be a broom closet. Wow. Can't think of something more humble. I love it.

Yeah, go ahead. He found that space. He loved it. It's right behind the sculpture of the Queen of Peace, and he felt it was very represented and humble for him. The first pictures now are out of that tomb, and it is very stripped back, very simple. His tomb merely reads, Franciscus, very on brand for Francis. Yeah.

Well, Eleanor on Discord writes, what I'd like to see in the next Pope is someone who actually views women as adult human beings rather than stunted wayward children. Jeffrey, so President Trump will be attending Francis's funeral Saturday. And, you know, Pope Francis openly criticized Trump. Trump openly criticized the Pope. I think he may have called him even a filthy leftist. Yeah. What are your thoughts? Yeah, it's a pretty fascinating set of personalities. Yeah.

You know, I don't really... They're speaking to such... I think in some ways they're speaking to such different audiences that it's interesting to me how Trump is able to...

sort of garner attention by creating a character of himself, a sort of public character that is so opposite of Francis, you know, just about the opulence, about the wealth, about the winning, um...

And it's this sort of Nietzschean Superman, or, you know, without actually having read or even maybe know who Nietzsche is, that is so opposite of Francis and so opposite of Francis's understanding of Jesus and St. Francis. And so, you know, I think in many ways...

This is why Francis was so popular and powerful, even to secular people, even to atheist people. It's a way to think about how to approach the world with humility and frankly, with love and kindness. And Trump is not well known for love and kindness. And that's not why he's attractive to a lot of people.

But I think what we can learn from Francis about this is that he never gave up on anyone. And it's very important for him to learn from the message of Jesus that, you know, you forgive seven times, 70 times and even more than that. And you really try to be there for people. And so I know I think one lesson learned.

for this, uh, for those of us who are not Trump voters but have Trump voters in our family or other people who sort of, in a Trumpian way, kind of relish the pain of others and sort of enjoy the cruelty of others, is to recognize that most people aren't that kind of sociopath. Most people, um,

are actually capable of sympathy and capable of empathy. And to learn from Francis how to engage that part of people. And, and who knows, maybe even that part of Trump. Let me remind listeners, you're listening to Forum. I'm Mina Kim. I understand that one of the key areas that he wanted to get across to Trump and J.D. Vance was just their position on immigration. Right. Yeah. Yes. You say more about that.

Well, we do know that in their last meeting, the principal conversation was about exactly that, from a place of compassion and understanding what it means to be compassionate.

And to make policies with compassion in mind. And this is very much at the forefront of Francis's whole belief. Going back to this idea of who am I to judge? One of the other things that was very important that Francis said over and over and over is the church is for everyone.

And this is what his whole view was about going to the people who are forgotten, going to the people who are suffering and being there with them because the church is for everyone. And it doesn't matter what has caused that scenario or what actions are at play. The church is for everyone. And that compassion and that love is supposed to be for everyone. And I think that's,

What a beautiful message to have had as his last, even though it's obviously getting a lot of attention, being memed across the planet right now. What a beautiful message to go out on that the last thing that you told a world leader was to have compassion and to express that to other people.

Interestingly, I also understand that President Volodymyr Zelensky of Ukraine is planning to attend Francis's funeral too. It'll be just, there's so much, it speaks to the range of the people that the Pope touches, but also just the kind of issues within the same room that will be simmering underneath a lot of what is happening. You know, thinking about humility, thinking about the way that we think about a Pope,

Jeffrey, you've thought about papal infallibility. Do you feel like that's sort of popularly misunderstood? Yes. Papal infallibility speaks to...

really comes out of Vatican I and this deep concern about modernity and modernism. And so it was this need to sort of say, if the Pope says certain things, ex cathedra, which means from the chair, then it is infallible. So there are actually very, very few things the Pope says

And Brie, I'd like to hear thoughts on this too. But there are very few things the popes have said that are actually considered infallible. Absolutely. And so this is often misunderstood as the pope is always infallible. And no pope, even the most conservative of popes, have ever said that or thought that. And so I think it is a common misconception. But this also speaks to Francis's work on synodality in general. So there is a kind of...

ongoing tension within the history of the papacy about the distinction between the Pope versus either the College of Cardinals or just the global synod of bishops that goes all the way back to the ancient Mediterranean when some people think that the Roman bishop was kind of the first among equals. And so to what degree is the Pope really, really the main person in charge and to what degree is the Pope kind of the...

the person who sort of maintains things for the broader synod of bishops and for the sort of universal church. And over time, obviously, the pope has become more and more central, though not, I should be clear, generally infallible. But, you know, this could change back and forth. And one of the interesting things moving forward will be to see how Francis' successor continues to think about synodality and to what degree they'll try to sort of reclaim a more monarchical papacy. Yeah.

Yeah, it's interesting, Brie. I would love to hear your thoughts, too, on what you think the effect of an idea around papal infallibility has and how we should be thinking about that as we think about who Francis's successor will be and who a pope really is.

Oh, absolutely. I think this is something that is generally fundamentally misunderstood as something that's existed throughout the papacy the entire time. And it absolutely isn't. Papal infallibility is very, very much a modern concept. And that is also why it has been used specifically and like so very clearly.

strongly restricted as to where infallibility happens because there are popes in history who have been posthumously excommunicated for heresy. So this would present a lot of problems for them if they were to say that the pope has never made a mistake. Not to mention that completely sort of invalidates the whole idea of the papacy because if we go back to the biblical reading,

Jesus chose Peter as his first pope because he was the most flawed, because he was the most fallible of the apostles. And by doing so, he represented the largest part of the church.

So there's these ideas. And I think we also need to speak to the idea of papal primacy and that idea of a monarchical papacy, because this is something that has dramatically shifted with the history of the papacy. Francis very much represents the opposite, which is that idea of first among equals. And if we see that progress forward, I think we're looking at this idea of a more pastoral church. And I think that,

There's a risk if you run the other way that if we see the next pope try to come back to this idea of majesty and monarchism and what we've seen developed through the pope actually being a literal world power for hundreds of years.

They run the risk of losing touch. It's fascinating to watch this transition. Bree Jensen, host of Pontifax Podcast. Thank you so much, Jeff. You and sociology professor studying religion at UCLA really appreciate you as well. And I also want to thank Father Jostrum, Isaac Carithidum, who joined us earlier from Rome. Thank you, listeners. Thank you, Tessa Paoli, for producing this segment. You've been listening to Forum. I'm Mina Kim.

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