What Trump’s Order to “Dramatically Reduce” Presidio Trust Means for the Beloved Park
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From KQED in San Francisco, I'm Alexis Madrigal. President Trump shocked San Francisco last week with an executive order to, quote, dramatically reduce the Presidio Trust, which Congress formed in 1996 to manage and protect the 1,500-acre park that looks out on the Golden Gate Bridge in San Francisco Bay. The trust is one of four agencies named in the executive order, which calls for shrinking the ones the president deems unnecessary.

But what does it even mean? Will it actually affect the operation to the park? We talk about what's behind the order and what it might mean for the future of the beloved and much-visited Presidio. It's all coming up next, right after this news.

We've got a little pledge break going, so you get a little bonus on the Pledge Free Stream podcast or on our replay at night. I'm writing these mini essays that we're calling One Good Thing. They're sort of a doom loop antidote, little tributes to bits of Bay Area culture and geography. So each day during this pledge break, I'll have one for you in this slot.

Today, it's about a brutal, grinding trail up into the hills above Pacifica, the Sweeney Ridge Trail, which you catch just outside town. When you start up a trail as tough as this one, you don't really know what you're in for. You can imagine that at some point you will lose your breath, your legs will start to burn as they call out for more oxygen, as the metabolic relationship you have with the mountain begins to take its toll. Why do I do it?

I need to see new perspectives on our region, and getting elevation lets you see this whole place anew. Where I normally go on both sides of the Berkeley Hills, there are only certain things that can be seen. The lovely curve of Mount Tam and its daunting eastern approaches, or the perfect miniature mountain of Diablo standing authoritatively over the suburban valley towns.

But Sweeney Ridge offers something different. Tucked behind Pacifica, once you complete the climb, the view is absolutely panoramic. The hills of San Francisco seem like little toys. Mount Tam lies beyond, and then stunningly to the east, there is Mount Diablo rising behind the Berkeley Hills, looking almost like one of them, but much bigger.

The Bay 2 from Sweeney, looking down on San Bruno and the shallow parts of the South Bay, is misty and a bit mysterious. The ships scattered on the water look like odds and ends next to the airport's strange and strict geometries. And finally, this is the northern outpost of a grand feature of the Bay Area. Looking south, there is a stretch of crumpled, forested coastal hills that extend 50-plus miles down to Santa Cruz, more or less unbroken.

What landscape, the variability of land, of terrain, as against the blue ocean. And I'll say just for myself that the human bits tucked in amongst the nature don't bother me. In fact, they add to the spectacle of interrelatedness. We too live here. They say astronauts go to space and experience the overview effect, the state of awe people experience when they see the biosphere against the nothingness of space.

Well, Sweeney Ridge and places like it, they're my own kind of space travel, and I can see the power and fragility of a living planet from up there. That's your one good thing, the Sweeney Ridge Trail outside Pacifica. Welcome to Forum. I'm Alexis Madrigal. The Presidio is perhaps the most gorgeous of the former military bases that ring the bay. Spread over 1,500 acres, it's become a massive attraction for locals and tourists alike.

It also has an unusual governance structure. Its board is largely appointed by the president and it generates its own operating funds. So what could this new executive order from President Trump mean for the Presidio? And why did the Presidio Trust become a target for the new administration?

To help answer those questions, we're joined by Gabe Greshler, who is at the SF Standard. Welcome, Gabe. Thank you so much for having me. We're also joined by Chris Lennertz, who is president and CEO of the Golden Gate National Parks Conservancy. Thank you for welcoming us. And we're joined by Barbara Boxer, California senator from 1993 to 2016. Thanks for joining us, Barbara. Of course. Gabe, let's start with you.

So just because it's kind of confusing, what does the executive order actually say? Yeah. So the executive order, which it came out late Wednesday evening, directs several government agencies, four of them, one including the Presidio Trust, to report back to the federal government, hey, here are our activities. Here is what we do. But

If you read the language of the executive order, it calls the Presidio Trust and these three other federal agencies unnecessary. The title of the executive order is reducing the federal bureaucracy. So kind of taking a big step back, there's a lot of worry here that this executive order is really about downsizing the Presidio Trust and these other federal agencies because

But we're going to have to wait about two weeks, which is the deadline that the federal executive order gives these agencies to submit and see what they actually end up telling them.

Barbara Boxer, I think it's worth stepping back a little bit to how the Presidio came to sort of have the configuration that it does. Just can you tell us what sort of what was the vision and what was the process that got us to this particular governance structure? I want to say to anyone who wants to know any detail about this, read a law review article that was written at Golden Gate University Law School yesterday.

And it was finished a year after the Presidios began its operation. So as a part. So just wanted to put that out there. It really was great for me to just go back and see everything. Because I carried the bill that Nancy Pelosi had put together in the House. I carried that bill in the Senate. Senator Feinstein was my co-sponsor. It was one of the most bipartisan bills.

uh bills ever with bob dole uh who was a big republican leader and ben nighthorse campbell who i brought out he was a republican who was on the uh appropriate committee we all wanted this to happen uh that's the first thing but i also want to give out a shout out as i answer your question to phil burton who held the seat for many years more than 20 years that

Speaker Merida calls now. And he said in the 70s and 80s, when and if the Presidio was closed as a military base, it must become a park. So this goes all the way back to the Nixon years. And Nixon supported that idea of an urban park. And

And you go forward and you look at how long it took us, it took us a couple of years to get it done. It's magnificent. And lastly, I would say that an attack on the Presidio is a political act because it's a raging success. It hasn't had any money from the government since 2013. The trust runs so beautifully.

And the trust is answering this request. And I just don't see how they're going to upend it because, as Nancy told me when I talked to her the other day, the statute is very specific and they'd have to overturn the law. Mm hmm.

You know, it's probably worth reminding people, too, that this was a time in the Bay Area where the work of the Base Realignment and Closure Commission was kind of shutting down and working on bases like all over the area. So, you know, you have like in Alameda and in Oakland and and all these places you have the military turning over facilities to other governmental bodies, right?

How different is the Presidio structure from sort of the standard thing that happened to a military base during that process? Well, this was what we did was there was a model, some Pennsylvania Corporation, Pennsylvania Avenue Corporation in D.C. that also had a trust. And there was a very important study that was done. And the study showed us that this was the way to go because.

There were so many buildings that could become sources of revenue. So at the time, you go back, the Park Service was in deep trouble in the sense of the backlog of improvements that hadn't been made. So we had to come up with a way to make this self-sustaining. Or we knew that private interests wanted to get their hands on it and make it condominium city.

So we had to come up with a way that the Presidio could be self-sufficient. And indeed, it has been self-sufficient. Chris Lenders, let's bring you in here as well. Talk to us about how the park now does support itself. It's an amazing model that is a wonderful way to think about public-private partnerships. So the National Park Service has always relied on public-private partnerships specifically.

The Yosemite Conservancy, a nonprofit organization established over 100 years ago, supports Yosemite National Park. The Golden Gate National Parks Conservancy supports both the National Park Service at the Golden Gate National Recreation Area and the Presidio Trust.

Once they came into being, we knew that a public-private partnership would mean that you relied on philanthropy to do things like reestablish the ecosystem at El Polin Springs, to establish even most recently the Presidio Tunnel Tops, where we raised $98 million. So the innovation of public-private partnerships in national parks is a long time.

time model. And the Presidio Trust Act is probably the most innovative, returns money to the park, every dollar that they earn through leases, through lodging, through the opportunity to have commercial vendors and restaurants comes back to that park.

So there is no federal appropriation. It returns that money to preserve over 300 historic buildings and to build a park that is just an amazing ecosystem as well. Yeah.

I mean, we've been saying that Presidio Trust doesn't get a federal appropriation, but it did get a couple hundred million dollars through the Inflation Reduction Act, right? I think it was in 2023. And that $200 million would be spread over some years. So to me, at least, that feels like an appropriation. Barbara Boxer, how would you characterize this kind of maintenance budget?

Well, that's not maintenance. It's one-time capital improvements, which makes a heck of a lot of sense because this is a, you know, this is a, as was just stated, a revenue-producing park. But you need to keep the infrastructure up, you know, and so a one-time...

investment makes a lot of sense. And of course, uh, Congressman Pelosi, a speaker Pelosi then was able to do that with president Biden. So I don't look at that as maintenance, but improvements that are going to continue, uh,

the park's ability to sustain itself forever. I mean, it's a big deal and it was a wonderful thing. And, you know, if they want to get their hand, I'm talking about Trump and all those folks, they want to get their hands on that. You can't do that. That would be an impoundment.

So that may be what the impetus is, because they don't like the Inflation Reduction Act. It makes investments in very smart investments all over the country in every state almost. So they want to get their hands on that. That would be an empowerment. And my understanding is, but I would defer to those who know more, that a lot of those funds have been obligated. Mm hmm.

We're talking about President Trump's order to dramatically reduce the Presidio Trust and what it means for the park.

Joined by Barbara Boxer, who served four terms as California senator until 2017. Chris Leonard, president and CEO of the Golden Gate National Parks Conservancy. And Gabriel Greshler, who's a politics reporter with the SF Standard. We want to hear from you. What questions you have about how the Presidio might be impacted by this order. 866-733-6786. Forum at KQED.org. We'll be back with more right after the break.

Xfinity Mobile was designed to save you money. So you get high speeds for low prices. Better than getting low speeds for high prices. Jealous? Xfinity Internet customers, get a free unlimited line for a year when you buy one unlimited line. Bring on the good stuff. Welcome back to Forum. Alexis Madrigal here. We're talking about what President Trump's executive order to, quote, dramatically reduce the Presidio Trust means.

for the park, or what it could mean at least. Joined by Chris Leonard, President and CEO of the Golden Gate National Parks Conservancy, Barbara Boxer, who served four terms as California Senator, of course, and Gabriel Greshler, politics reporter with the SF Standard. We're going to get to some of your calls and comments in this show, questions you might have about how the Presidio might be impacted, and

What the Presidio means to you if you're here in the city. Give us a call. The number is 866-733-6786. Forum at kqed.org. Of course, on social media, Blue Sky, Instagram, Discord, we're KQED Forum.

Gabriel, I wanted to ask you about sort of the financial picture for the Presidio Trust. I was actually surprised at how much money flows through there. Can you tell us? It's quite a lot. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So the way it works is that a lot of the funding that's coming in

to the Presidio Trust is from commercial and residential leases. We have about roughly 3,000 San Francisco residents, or technically federal residents, but residents who live in the Presidio. You have hundreds of businesses who are there as well. And

My understanding is that the trust collects, I think it's somewhere between $150 million to a little less than $200 million a year from these leases. So it's quite a lot of money. When I looked at it, too, I was quite surprised. And so that's primarily how they make money and keep themselves a trust.

Yeah. And like, you know, have you looked into how this compares to, you know, other national parks? Do they bring in enough money to sort of cover their expenses or their federal outlays in these other places? Yeah. Great question. So this morning I was actually looking at this exact issue and, um,

For example, Yellowstone National Park, a great American national park, receives federal appropriations every single year, which the Presidio does not. And it's, I think, somewhere in tens of millions of dollars to cover the park's operations, to pay staff.

And so, you know, just from a kind of basic accounting perspective, these parks are not bringing in enough money to cover their expenses. So they need extra federal funding to cover that. That's not like the Presidio, right? The Presidio is making a lot of money to be able to cover its expenses. And like my other guests or the other guests on this show have said, you know, has said

been financially self-sustaining since 2013. Barbara Boxer, you know, we've said a couple times that the trust is like statutory. You know, you mentioned, you know, former Speaker Pelosi statutory. What does that mean for those of us who are not, you know, familiar with that term? It means that if you follow the law, the only way to

change of law is to have another vote. You would have to vote to overturn this whole thing. That is not going to happen. And so, you know, it's just a rough time right now. You know, President Trump wants to do a lot of things without considering the law, but the law is going to prevail. So we would have to just overturn this entire thing. It was a

it was written by all of us in a very careful way. Why? Because we understood the jewel that this is. We understood the commercial value of this. And we understood that there might be people

you know, now and way into the future that might want to get their hands on it and make it a personal investment instead of a public investment. And, you know, if I go back to what I testified about the bill in 1996, I closed with this. Mr. Chairman, the Presidio, if managed correctly, will grace this nation with an attraction that would draw visitors from all over the world

Preserving the past coupled with promoting activities of the present and the future will make the Presidio a major worldwide attraction. Now, that's what those of us who worked so hard for this believed. And unlike a lot of things that don't turn out as well, this just is a fantastic example of, as your other guest said,

a tremendous example of private-public partnership, the community support, and millions and millions of visitors every single year. Yeah. You know, Chris, one of the things that I'm curious about when we look at this board, you know, six of the seven positions on the board, I believe, are appointed by the president. The president is President Trump, and he's issued this executive order. So we have this statutory situation where...

Maybe the trust itself can't be disbanded without passing another law. But couldn't he just appoint an entirely different board? I would tell you for the Presidio Trust, that is not only in law, it's in practice. So the six who are appointed by the president serve at the pleasure of the president. The seventh one serves at the pleasure of the secretary of the Department of the Interior.

And so it is a bit of a pendulum. With each administration, the opportunity to appoint people to the board or carry people over on the board is an opportunity that every president and secretary of interior can exercise. And Gabriel, are you hearing anything about that? I mean, it just seems like the most obvious way to seize the power in the Presidio Trust.

Yes, we are hearing indications that something might be happening to these board members. We haven't gotten any confirmation just yet that that's the case. But let's just say there's rumors that something's afoot. I mean, Barbara Boxer, what could a new board do? Like how limited are they by the governance structure that was built years ago?

I don't know all the details, but I know after talking to Nancy Pelosi that the way the law was written, this is a permanent park and it is run by the trust. And I don't believe there's any way, for example, for the trust to decide it's no longer a park. But, you know, we'd have to look at every single line. But that's my understanding from her, that it was written in a way to make sure that no one, no one,

Could destroy this, you know There's so few parks that have a history like this where it was first it belonged to Spain and then Mexico and then America and we trained our soldiers there through three wars The incredible history There and the beauty there. It's just amazing and you know if we did it, right and

It's going to stand for a long time. Yeah.

Gabriel, you know, one of our listeners over on the Discord writes, is this perhaps the first step to eventually building high rises in the Presidio? I can see how a real estate developer could view this as billions to be made. Yeah. So one thing that we've been seeing is chatter on social media about creating some sort of community there that President Trump spoke kind of

broadly about during the 2024 campaign. These quote-unquote freedom cities? Yeah, exactly. So we've been seeing some folks, definitely in like the tech community, talk about, hey, we want to, you know, transform this space, you know, into one of those kind of what they're calling innovation hubs. It's a little bit unclear, but we've been seeing some of that.

I just think, you know, let's go back to the law, right? What does the law say about what this land can be? And I'm sure the other guests on the show, you know, can speak more to this, is that I have a little hard time understanding how that would actually work, considering what the Presidio Trust Act outlined. But it's certainly a conversation that's happening kind of on the edges. Yeah, yeah.

Um, let's also be clear about this as well. Richard writes in to say, is this retribution for San Francisco politics or is there serious savings to be had? Barbara Boxer, just to be, I think you've said it, but let's just make it clear for Richard. Well, just seeing what I'm seeing out of President Trump, he, uh, he talks about retribution and, you know, if he thinks that this is a slap at, uh,

Speaker of Merida Pelosi, he's wrong because she said she's not going to be diverted from the work she's doing right now. You know, she said when because I told her that I was I was going to do this, she said, make sure you tell them that, you know, I feel comfortable with this. And the Presidio Trust is answering all the questions and I'm not concerned and I'm not going to be diverted from.

you know, from saving this country from the kind of draconian cuts that he's doing on health care and nursing homes and Head Start. So I said, OK, Nancy, I will say that. Message delivered, I see. Yeah. Message delivered. But again, we have to look at every single word in the law. And if someone's there who has done this,

They should speak up now because her analysis, which she told me, and my look at it, and my look at all the testimony is that this has been drawn up in a way that it precludes, you know, condominiums. Now, if the trust said build condominiums, I don't even think it's allowed. Here's the deal. I remember this clearly in the law. If anyone can comment on this.

What Phil Burton did at the time when he envisioned it, he said, you can't build more square footage. It has to be, if you tear down a building, you could replace it with the same size. That was very interesting because he said the same thing as this listener, that there'll be people who want to cover it over with condominiums. What

What more gorgeous views could you have? So it is stated in the law that you can't add more square footage of property. Let's bring in a caller here. Let's bring in Robert in San Francisco. Welcome, Robert.

Thank you. The reason for my call is that the Presidio is a beloved place with folks in San Francisco and all over the Bay Area who flock there. It's an oasis for recreation, residential, commercial, amazing restaurants, and it's

it's basically our front porch for San Francisco. And I wanted to find, first of all, I mean, the highlight of which most recently was Presidio Tunnel Tops Park that was designed by the same landscape architecture firm that did the High Line in New York, James Corner Field Operations. And so is there a place where folks can donate money, an address or a P.O. box or... I think Chris is nodding right now. ...donate money?

Yes, Robert, thank you. Thanks for that question. I mean, Chris, you have been teed up. Robert, thank you. And I will tell you, you know, we can talk about the legal strings, but the Parks Conservancy is partly about the heartstrings. This is in a national park. Presidio is within the Golden Gate National Recreation Area. And even the Presidio Trust Act assigns some responsibilities to the Presidio Trust and some responsibilities to the National Park Service.

As the nonprofit partner, we support both. You can become a member of the Golden Gate National Parks Conservancy and you can donate to the Golden Gate National Parks Conservancy to make sure both the Park Service and the Presidio Trust can continue to do all the things that we rely on with those parks as our front yard. Are there other things that you're seeing at other parks right now and cutbacks or, you know, kind of chaos?

There are 433 national parks over the weekend. I talked to about a dozen folks who are in the National Park Service to kind of understand where we are. The National Park Service here at the Golden Gate National Recreation Area, which manages Muir Woods National Monument, Fort Point National Historic Site and Golden Gate. The superintendent has said he anticipates up to 60 to 80 employees. Hmm.

Leaving this park and not being able to fulfill those positions. Out of how many? Out of 300. It is an extraordinary number. There are some parks who are experiencing less. They had fewer employees who had just come on within the last year who were probationary or don't need as many seasonal employees. But we think that there's more to come in terms of a reduction in force. And I would say if we can stand together with parks because we love parks, that will make a difference.

Three hundred and twenty two million people visited the national parks last year. We only have three hundred thirty million people in this country. Ten million people visited the Presidio. So you can see that these are places that are adored, as Robert said. They're a part of our very life here in San Francisco. And so we are a microcosm of what's happening within the whole national park system. Yeah.

We're talking about what President Trump's executive order to, quote, dramatically reduce the Presidio Trust could mean for the park, especially given that it actually operates in the black as it is. We're joined by Chris Lennertz, who is president and CEO of the Golden Gate National Parks Conservancy. Barbara Boxer, who, of course, served as California senator for terms until 2017. And Gabriel Greshler, who's a politics reporter with San Francisco Standard News.

We'd love to hear from you. What does the Presidio mean to you? What questions do you have about how the Presidio might be impacted? How do you feel about the idea of public lands being...

being treated in a different way than they have been here in the city. You can give us a call. The number is 866-733-6786. That's 866-733-6786. You can email us at forum at kqed.org. You can find us on social media, Blue Sky, Instagram, KQED Forum. Of course, it's also our Discord community.

One of the and Barbara Boxer, I think this one might come to you. One of our listeners on Blue Sky writes, you know, Trump is trying to cut expenses anywhere he can. The Presidio is entirely within San Francisco. Why not make it a public private partnership with San Francisco? So kind of changing the structure of the trust.

Well, I have a theory. If it ain't broke, what the heck are you trying to fix? This is crazy stuff. And again, there's lots of other examples in government and private sector and nonprofit where things don't work out. But when I read back to all my testimony, Diane's testimony, Nasty's testimony, the conversations about this, the visits that...

bipartisan members of the Senate and House, and I also served 10 years in the House and represented parts of San Francisco, don't change things that are working. And I think that what we all anticipate is, as the trust answers these questions, anyone who can

weepies and truth will see that things are working i do want to make a point the gentleman who said this is san francisco's backyard true enough it is and how fantastically fortunate we are to have the bay area but again reiterating what your fabulous panelist said 10 million visitors these are people coming from all over the country all over the world so it's

It is absolutely a destination that is extraordinary. And it just works. So don't fix it. Don't change it. As a matter of fact, emulate it.

because it is absolutely working. Last one I make, I remember when I brought Ben Nidorst Campbell out, who was the senator then from Colorado, and people calling him and saying, don't, we have to change it. We want to sell this to the private sector, the highest bidder. It will bring in billions and all that. And I brought him to take a look at the

the ground there. He was on the ground. And his comments and also told him, San Francisco is not going to allow huge development. They're going to have, if it's turned over the dam, they're going to have the say in what that's built. So let's not go there.

He became a fierce proponent and said something to the effect of, quote, over my dead body will I allow this to be sold to the private sector. So we had this Republican and Democratic support. It still took us a couple of years to get the bill done in the Senate because there was hanky panky about people putting their favorite.

a bill on top of the Presidio bill because it was so popular. I remember Ted Kennedy put an increase in the minimum wage on top of it. And some Utah terrible wilderness bill. And we had to struggle to get it done. But it was so popular. That's the point I want to make. I'm both sorry. Yeah. That everybody wanted to put their favorite Christmas ornament on our Christmas tree.

We're talking about President Trump's executive order around the Presidio Trust and what it could mean for the park. Still a lot of questions. Happy to take yours. 866-733-6786. We've got Barbara Boxer here with us. We've got Gabriel Greshler from San Francisco Standard. And we've got Chris Lennertz, president and CEO of the Golden Gate National Parks Conservancy. The email is forum at kqed.org. Our social media, Blue Sky, Instagram, we're KQED Forum. I'm Alexis Madrigal.

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Welcome back to Forum. Alexis Madrigal here. We're talking about President Trump's executive order about the Presidio Trust among a small number of federal agencies that he's, quote, deemed unnecessary. We're joined by Gabriel Greshler, politics reporter at the San Francisco Standard, Senator Barbara Boxer, and Chris Lennertz, president and CEO of Golden Gate National Parks Conservancy. Let's bring in Jen in San Francisco. Welcome, Jen.

Hey, so I want to talk more about the idea of freedom cities from the tech libertarians who are – and as a quid pro quo for supporting Trump, he's going to hand them our beautiful Presidio. And that's –

They want to start their own country. They don't even want to start their own city. They want to start their own country with their own rules and have it be this gated network state and call it Freedom City. I'd love the press to talk more about that and to really hone in on the fact that this is like a gift he's giving to the tech libertarians.

And, uh, Gabriel, you didn't write this piece in the San Francisco standard, but Leighton Woodhouse wrote, uh, wrote an opinion piece. Uh, if people want to find it, it's called Trump is want to make the Presidio a Chinese style super city. It's even nuttier than it sounds. What, what's the idea really here of, uh,

of this type of development. So I think just a little bit of background before we get into this specific idea is that, and listeners probably know about this, but there's been a wing of the Silicon Valley world that has really stepped behind Trump on issues like deregulation, you know, competition with China.

And within that world, there's a group that I think you could call like heavily YIMBY, where they really, really, really want to build as much housing as possible. They want to, you know, build these kind of innovation centers. They want to build really big high rises.

And so, you know, there's folks that I think kind of have this overlap of they support Trump. They're within Silicon Valley and they really want to see San Francisco have as much housing as possible. And I think they're now looking at this land that, you know, if you look at kind of the density of it compared to the rest of San Francisco, it's not really that dense at all, right? You have 3,000 people living on roughly 1,500 acres. Right.

And so I think you have this move by these kind of YIMBY folks that are also Trump supporters that are also kind of within the Silicon Valley sphere thinking, hmm, like maybe this is an opportunity for us to find some land in San Francisco that is largely undeveloped and for us to consider that to be an area of growth. But of course, like we've spoken about a lot in this conversation, we're

What the law says about that, I think, is a major question. I mean, Barbara Buxer, you mentioned that, you know, in the conceptualization of the Presidio Trust at the very beginning, the idea was not to build a bunch of condos. But 3,000 people do already live there. Could there be more housing without sort of like despoiling the place as it is? I mean, it's 1,500 acres. What if there were 10 acres of condos or something alongside the housing that's already there?

That's ridiculous. And it's a park to commemorate the history of what went on there. It draws millions of people because it is a national park. Are we going to build condos in Yosemite?

I mean, the whole thing is either it is a park, okay, or it's not a park. And it is protected against this kind of land grab. It's, you know, you could look at the whole country and say, why do we need any national parks? We...

Yes, there are places to build housing. When I was a county supervisor, we had plenty of places that we said will have dense development. This is a park. This whole notion is contrary to what the Presidio is and what it means and how successful it's been. So to the tech bros, find another place. Let's bring in Jane in San Rafael. Welcome, Jane.

Thank you. I just wanted to say that I want to really thank Senator Boxer for everything that she's done. I'm a Marin County person, so special thanks.

I'm also a fifth generation San Franciscan, and my father at one point grew up in a house that was along the wall of the Presidio. And all the years I lived in San Francisco, walked through the Presidio, it's like medicine. And what the Trust has done has been like, it's the most incredible gift ever.

So that's how I feel about it, and I wanted to thank you. And then I also wanted to ask, does the panel think that there are other areas in the Bay Area that could be at risk of being a target of this administration? Thank you, Jane. Gabriel, you want to take a stab at that? Yeah, I would probably defer to Chris on that since you're more familiar with the lands around the Bay area.

It's such a good question. There are seven national parks and a National Historic Trail that run right through the Bay Area. But parks have never been a partisan issue. They have never been a partisan issue. So you had Kennedy create Point Reyes. You had Nixon create the Golden Gate National Recreation Area. Obama, Cesar Chavez down in Southern California. Trump established five national park units while he was in his first term. So I hope not. I have this feeling right now, like at the heart of my heart,

This administration does not hate parks. This administration is using very blunt tools to reduce government in a way that doesn't regard parks. I guess I'll just add one thing that I think, you know, if Trump is actually trying to affect these national parks, I'd be very curious to know what largely the American people think about that. I mean, I would...

Yeah, I've always thought of them as being just remarkably popular. Yeah, and probably one of the most... And across every political boundary you can imagine. Like, you go to any national park and you're like, oh, everyone is here. People don't like the... Maybe people don't like the IRS. People don't like, you know...

Whatever federal agency. But I'm going to maybe make the assumption that the national parks is probably very popular. And it's not an assumption. They do a study every year. What do people think of their federal agencies? And for a long time, the U.S. Postal Service was number one in the hearts of Americans. And now it's the National Park Service. If you think about those rangers out there, you know, picking up trash, taking care of toilets, making sure the trails work. Those are just the basics. That if those aren't done, parks don't work very well for the visitors. Hmm.

Let's bring in Paul in Nevada who has a historical connection to all this. Welcome, Paul. Hi, yeah, thanks for giving me the opportunity. I worked on an advertising campaign in the mid-90s when the Trust was being put together and it was a promotion to gain awareness so folks in the Bay Area knew what was going on and to support it.

And our main thrust was really, if you don't support this, then exactly what folks are talking about now is going to happen, potentially having the place flooded with buildings, condos, etc. And in our research, we saw the actual plans have been drawn up in the 60s.

Even site models had been built. I remember luxury condos to be built in the Marin Headlands and all of that stuff. So this is not the first fight. It's happened in the past, obviously, and it was beaten back then, and that was when they were just looking to deregulate or turn the Presidio and the Marin Headlands over for military purposes. So...

an interesting... Yeah, Paul, really appreciate it. Yeah, appreciate that bit of history. Senator Boxer, do you want to speak to that? Yes. You're also right at the popularity and the non-partisanship

associated with the National Park Service. And I remember, you know, we always thought how magnificent, how beautiful. It's a driver of economic prosperity in communities. As we know, when those visitors come, they shop in San Francisco. When they go to Yosemite, they go to the little towns. And I remember every time we had a government shutdown, and sadly, I went through a few,

People were most upset, honestly, that they couldn't go to the parks, that they couldn't take their families there. And the small business people were suffering because the parks shut down. So I don't know if it's true that...

Trump administration loves parks, doesn't love parks. Frankly, I don't care if they love them or they don't love them. What I care about is that when something is a bipartisan success and it's working on every and every measure you could put to it, whether it's preserving history, preserving beauty, bringing in revenues, and it passes those tests, keep your hands

And, you know, we're going to this is going to be a bit of a rocky road. But I think the kind of conversation we're having today is very important. And the last point I make is public opinion means everything. And Nancy Pelosi always says Lincoln. She quotes Lincoln. He said public sentiment is everything. And there's no question in my mind that public opinion around the parks is so massive.

to keep them as they are. That I think if Trump goes down this road, he's going to keep on falling in the polls. He's already...

the most unpopular president since 1953 at this stage of his presidency. So, you know, don't go down that road. And again, to the Tech brothers, find another place. Senator Boxer, have you talked with any of your Republican colleagues about this, the ones who helped you pass this bill, you know, this Christmas tree that drew so many ornaments from other lawmakers? Well, sadly...

A lot of them aren't around. I hate to say it, but a lot of people who helped us aren't around. The Bobdills, the Ben Knight horses. I mean, I have been able to reach out, but it's in the books. The law is there, and it is very protective of anyone who's going to try to get their hands on this. And also, to lay off these workers is ridiculous because it's absolutely true

That 20% of the Presidio is maintained by the Park Service, 80% by the trust. So we need these incredibly dedicated people. So I think at the end of the day, here's what I believe and I hope will protect us, I think.

the history of this place, that it's sacred history, the beauty of this place, it's incomparable, the support across party lines of this place, the way the law was written, and public sentiment. And so I think if this is going to be a fight, it's going to be a fight, but I think it's a useless waste of our time. This thing is working for everybody.

This is a fundraising period for KQED Public Radio. You may have noticed for more information about how to support KQED, you can just go to kqed.org. I'm Alexis Madrigal. You know, we've got a couple of listeners who just want to shout out.

Presidio things that they love. One listener writes, "'Tunnel Tops' is the best. It's one of the few places that my East Bay friends with kids will make the trek back into San Francisco for. And the ecological restoration with Chrissy Field is vital as we face rising sea levels." Margaret writes, "'If there are any listeners who haven't visited the Presidio recently, I would urge them to do so and to spend some time in the Visitor Center. You will learn a lot and feel more connected to this gem.'"

Let's bring another person with a tie to the Presidio. Mark in San Francisco, welcome. Thank you. My name is Mark Caskey, and my wife and I have the benefit of having lived in the Presidio for the past 30 years in one of the historic houses that we rent.

And previously I was director of Fort Mason Center for many years. One of the things that hasn't been emphasized as much as I think it should be is the fact that the Presidio is self-supporting. Because what being self-supporting affords an organization the opportunity to do is make decisions that are in the best interest of the place, short-term and long-term, without having to balance them against public political pressure

from different special interest groups or political funding, you know, from the federal government, state government, or local government. The organization can literally say, since we aren't dependent on them, we can make these decisions independently. And I can say that the way the Presidio Trust has taken advantage of this opportunity is outstanding. We have seen the Presidio improve every year for the 30 years that we've been here.

The landscaping, the maintenance of the buildings, the nature of the programs that have been invited in, the kinds of communities that have taken advantage of the open space on the main post and down at Chrissy Field and throughout the Presidio. So I think that that issue of being self-supporting is something that really should be emphasized because of the very powerful impact it's had on the quality of what we see here.

And one last point about that is at a time when cities around the country are struggling financially and having their living conditions deteriorate to some degree or in some cases to a great degree, it's been the absolute opposite at the Presidio. The quality of life here has gotten better every year. I attribute that to the excellent management and to the fact that it's self-supporting. Thank you. Hey, Mark, really appreciate that. Really, really appreciate that.

You know, Senator Boxer, there is a listener comment that I would just love you to respond to. Tim and Paula write,

Why are you still trying to play the game that way? Please come up with a different strategy before we lose it all. Like, how do you respond to that? Which I think is a sentiment I've seen out on social media as well. I think people just give up on America. I don't give up on America at all. And the fact is, the Presidio was set up in a very important way in a statute that's quite specific.

And there are still laws in this country. As you can see, people are taking their cases to court and the courts are stopping a lot of this stuff. So if you don't believe that

you know, the law was written well, I'm sorry, because it has been written well, because we knew this was going to happen. We knew people were going to try to get their hands on this. So I don't play games. That's not what I do. I'm not a game player. I'm a believer in fighting for what I think is right, which in this case is the way the procedure runs. The trust fund is the

Gentleman said self-supporting. It is. There's nothing to condemn or criticize about the way it's run. And and I believe that if you start saying, oh, there's nothing we can do.

you're giving it over to the other side. No, there's everything we can do. And that's why Speaker Emerita is saying very clearly, we feel confident that the way the questions were asked can be answered by the trust. We take it a day at a time. Public sentiment does everything. And we feel we have a very good guarantee because of the way the law was written. And that's where we stand. And I cannot imagine...

that people would disagree with this if they tried to take away from us a part without changing the law. That's my opinion. I'm sorry that I'm playing a game. It's the opposite. I won't play a game of saying there's nothing we can do because that's just giving them everything they want. Senator Barbara Boxer served four terms as California senator until 2017. Thank you so much for joining us.

You're so welcome. We have also been joined by Gabriel Greshler, who is a politics reporter with the San Francisco Standard. And I assume you're going to be following this very closely for the next few weeks as we watch all this stuff come in. Yes, definitely. Keeping an eye on San Francisco Standard's coverage on this. For sure. Thank you for joining us.

Thank you. We've also been joined by Chris Lenertz, who is president and CEO of the Golden Gate National Parks Conservancy. Thank you so much for joining us. Thank you so much. And remember, voice and volume make all the difference when we stand with parks. Thank you so much, Chris. I'm Alexis Madrigal. Thank you so much for all of your calls and comments. Stay tuned for another hour of Forum Ahead with guest host Grace Wan. Thank you.

Funds for the production of Forum are provided by the John S. and James L. Knight Foundation, the Generosity Foundation, and the Corporation for Public Broadcasting.