Moms, Prophecies, and oh ya Orpheus is there too... KAOS Takeover w/ Christie Vogler and Anastasia Pantazopoulou (Part 2)
01:34:29 Share

Oh hi there, Liv here, speaking from the future. If you are keen to support this podcast, if you are enjoying the episodes as you find them and you want to listen ad-free, check out the Oracle Edition on Patreon. It didn't exist way back when these early episodes were recorded, but I'm telling you about it now. You can get all 700 and counting episodes of

of Let's Talk About Myths, Baby ad-free along with so much more at patreon.com slash mythsbaby or via the link in the podcast description. Thanks and happy listening.

Now at Verizon, we have some big news for your peace of mind. For all our customers, existing and new, we're locking in low prices for three years guaranteed on MyPlan and MyHome. That's future you peace of mind. And everyone can save on a brand new phone on MyPlan when you trade in any phone from one of our top brands. That's new phone peace of mind. Because at Verizon, whether you're already a customer or you're just joining us,

We got you. Visit Verizon today. Price guarantee applies to then current base monthly rate. Additional terms and conditions apply for all offers. If you work as a manufacturing facilities engineer, installing a new piece of equipment can be as complex as the machinery itself. From prep work to alignment and testing, it's your team's job to put it all together. That's why it's good to have Grainger on your side. With industrial grade products and next day delivery, Grainger helps ensure you have everything you need close at hand through every step of the installation. Call

1-800-GRANGER, click granger.com or just stop by. Granger, for the ones who get it done.

Hello everyone, it is Hermes aka Michaela just popping in to give you a quick apology that this episode wasn't out last week. Liv and I greatly underestimated how much work it would be to do this while we were doing our tours out here in Greece. But here it is now. We're so excited for you to hear the part two of our episode with Christy Vogler and Anastasia Pentazopoulou. So yeah, hope you enjoy it.

Moms, prophecies, and oh yeah, Orpheus is there too. A Chaos Takeover with Chrissy Vogler and Anastasia Pantosopoulou. Part 2.

Hello listeners, this is Let's Talk About Myths, baby! And I'm your host, Christy Vogler. That's right, once again, I am taking over for Liv to talk about the amazing show, Chaos. And helping me out, because again, I get lost sometimes, is the wonderful Mikayla. So Mikayla, can you say hi to everyone, please? Hello! Hello!

So, yes, we have Michaela here today. And just to remind everyone of, like, why I'm taking over, I am the person who loves to do reception of pop media. And Chaos is probably my number one favorite show.

in existence right now for so many reasons. And we, Mikayla and I, had a long conversation about the gods and we're trying to convince Liv, like, Liv, you need to see this show, like, come on. And we're convincing everyone else. And we decided today we need further reinforcements. So today we are joined by Anastasia Pantazopoulou.

who is a classical philologist and an interdisciplinary researcher who is currently a visiting assistant professor of classics at Carleton College. So Anastasia, thank you so much for joining us today. Thank you. Hello, everybody. And thank you both for having me. I'm really excited. Chaos is like a personal favorite as well. So I'm more than happy to talk about it.

And the reason we tapped Anastasia is I actually had a chance to listen to you give an amazing paper on this topic at Camus back in March now. So it's been a little bit. And I was so excited to get to talk to you about it. Like I said, we've already covered the gods, which was fun. But, like, there's so much to unpack with the mortal characters and three characters in particular that I know we're going to dig into. Yeah.

But yeah, Anastasia, can you also just tell us a little bit more about what work you do generally besides just talking about chaos? Oh, sure. I'm happy to. So generally, my research projects and my research centers around classical Athenian drama and classical reception. I also work on different digital humanities projects that are informed and inform my classical research in different ways.

And I focus a lot on the socio-political concept of the other in the ancient and the modern world. And especially I look at identity performance, otherness, and inclusivity in 5th century BC Athens and contemporary North America and the Western world more broadly. So working on chaos is also part of this broader interest of mine.

Yeah, yeah, it feels like such a good fit in so many ways. So Anastasia, Michaela and I already got to talk about, you know, how we came to the show and everything. Can you tell us about like your experience watching it the first time? And, you know, why do you think more people should be watching this show? Yeah, sure. Oh, that's a great question. So, you know, at first, like, there was a lot of like,

um, ads and like stuff popping up on my feeds, like on social media and stuff. And like, I have, um, Netflix and like, it would be like being advertised all the time. And I was like, it looks great. I mean, the cast for like, just like even not knowing like what to expect. Like you look at the customer, like, Oh, this needs like these, those looks really good. And I mean, it was really good. It didn't disappoint like at all. Uh, on the other hand, I think. And, um,

I mean, I've rewatched like parts of it for a time, like working on the Kamen's paper, now working on an article on it. And every time, like I find like something new, there's something more. One thing like I really appreciated, like the first time watching it is how layered it is.

So they really, the way they have reworked the myths to make them even more like accessible, because like in my head, at least like the goal of this means we're like all about like what this world is like the humans. Right. Um, and how our world works. And then they pretty much took that, like really, uh, this like core quality of the myths and translated it into, um,

a modern version of them, like make them even more accessible for modern audiences. So that was part of the magic, I think. And I was sad that people did not appreciate that. And we don't get to have like a second, like a second season at least. Cause it also leaves us on this cliffhanger. I'm like, wait, come on. We need to see more. You have like,

I don't know anyone who's actually watched this being disappointed in it in any regard. Like I've not been like someone's like it was mid for me or something like no like if you watched it you loved it especially if you have a background in classics and truly like the last episode just the way they set things up for a second season was so beautifully done like I can't

I can't get that imagery of hair out of my head, you know, like darling, like make a bed for me. I'm coming. And then just her walking down the street by all her tasks as rounder. I was like, like I had to rewind and watch that scene so many times. So I was just like, wow. So you want to make music videos to that scene. Like listen really good. Yeah. Like,

She felt herself in that moment. She was like, yeah, yeah. Yeah. This very like queen bee vibes all over, like with her bees and everything. And the tacitus all red, like all, sorry, dressed in like yellow and stuff like you have. And I mean, who did she call?

And then at the end, you also have Dionysus like holding like the little, and I know you talked about the guts, but Dionysus, like I love it. We always have room to talk about Dionysus. Oh my God, in this show, like so well done as like a character, but also like, yeah,

Dionysus, like in the ancient world, is also like the symbol between like the like bridging. Like it's like he's a bridge between the divine and the human and everything. And it was so like nicely done in the show. Yeah. So stunning. And I imagine because we'll have to talk about Orpheus a little bit. So Dionysus will definitely come back into play in today's conversation. It can't be helped. It's so good. Yeah.

um yeah okay so i like i said i gotta listen to your wonderful paper on this topic can you give our readers kind of like a you know a summary of what that was and that will be a great lead-in to our our three main protagonists that share this prophecy with yeah sure i'll be happy to so uh for that paper like one of the things said before like really kind

drew me in the show was how this like ancient myths were like reworked in modern context. So my focus was on the three mortal characters, Ari, Ridi, and Kainéas. And the fact that we have this like other characters there in terms of their gender, we have two women and a transgender character, Kainéas, who

share this prophecy with Zeus without knowing it and they are destined to the chain like take him down change how the world works and really like they are the ones who go all about like resisting this oppression oppression like fighting the injustices of the world and

And it's so what I try to do in that paper is discuss how the show really grants them agency and agency that they don't really have.

in Greek mythology in their main stories and through that agency that or the way they grant them the agency is by like reversing key aspects of their stories their mythological stories like for instance what

even simple terms like really is the one like you really sees the one who turns and looks at like or if she she is the one who decides to follow him uh back uh when he goes down to down to the underworld because she has a greater purpose to serve um kaneos um in the versions we have him um

From our ancient sources, there's this character that, yes, he's granted by Poseidon the wish to transform into a man and then becomes really a mechanism in the hyper-masculine, epic-style hero world.

but in the, in chaos, he's a totally like different character. He decides to, uh, uh, transform the sense of change. And then he becomes, um, a character who really gives life back instead of taking it. Um, like the, his mythological counterpart. And then Ari Adley, uh,

um, how are you, Anthony? In the myth. I really, like, but in, um, so in the myth, like versions of it that we know, like Theseus takes her, she helps Theseus, um, um, defeat, uh, the Minotaur and escape. And then in some accounts, like he, um, deserts her on, um, the island of Naxos. Uh, so she's also accused of like for leaving, um,

hard to like, counter behind everything. But the Ariadne of chaos, like she wants, she's a very disillusioned character, right?

right and once she like understands what's happened it's like no like i'm here like i defy the gods and i'm here like for my people to fight for my people like she stays in creed and becomes like a leader um of the people and for the people so that was like part of my paper like um

how this like agency that the show grants them allows them to become these empowered characters that can shake things up and actually take down the patriarchal structures of their world. And then I also, I'm looking at how

they become part, but the fact that they come together, like the three of them come together, but also they bring in and, uh, through, uh, their restored relationships with, uh, their, uh, mothers or by, um, creating like new bones with other, um, characters who are other, uh, in terms of their gender or socially added, like mostly women, like Ariadne forms this alliance, um,

With Andromache, like the leader of the Trojans, right? So how this, in a sense, creates this utopia of empowered, like, other characters that can shape or reshape the power dynamics in their world. Yeah. Yeah, I really loved your observation of not only what was significant about these three characters was...

They're shared prophecy and they're kind of reversing their roles from original mythology, but that connection to their mothers and how complicated those relationships were initially. But like the complication was out of the need of necessity in some ways for these prophecies too. And I thought that was really interesting, especially like Ari and her relationship with her mom was interesting.

one of the most interesting because she's literally making a wax figure of herself looking like her brother every year to like help her mom out. Yeah.

Yeah, it's really like deep, like the trauma that all three characters like have experienced. And they keep experiencing in terms of like how really broken their relationships are. And I think that's also like part of like the beauty of the show. Like it really tackles this idea of like,

relationships are like broken, whether they're like on all different like human levels and experiences. So it's really this need to reconstruct, like rebuild these relationships that can allow us to like fight back whatever it is that we need to fight.

Yeah. I was also thinking what's interesting about this show is for the majority, like we see all of their mothers, but also our perspective of the protagonist relationships with their mothers is mostly from the protagonists.

And I was just kind of curious, like, what did both of you think about the fact that these women, these mothers seem to maybe not Ari's mom, but definitely Riddhi's mom, who's a Tassadar and then definitely Canaeus' mother, who like has a game plan to get to the underworld and everything, have kind of a greater awareness of this like greater purpose for their children that they know alienates their relationship, but they still kind of have to follow through on it.

I don't know if you guys had thoughts on that. It kind of gave me chills when I had to observe that. - And I was constantly blown away by all the mothers in this series and just sort of how big a role they played and how important they were within each of their communities in a sense. Andromache with the Trojans, she is very important. And Camille argued because they killed all the men, but still these women are being sort of put in these positions.

And I was really kind of blown away by like specifically Riddhi and Kainéas' mothers where that alienation but they still kind of realize like there is a bigger plan here that my child is a part of and they're important for this. And so there's like this sacrifice that happens. It's really heartbreaking. And you can still see the love that these mothers have for their children despite that

or like, you know, regardless, they have to kind of distance themselves or make sure things are going to ensure that things are going to happen. Although I argue with any sort of Greek media when it comes to like fates, fates going to happen regardless, you know? So it's like, I don't know, maybe you could have had a really great relationship with your kid and it would still happen. But yeah, there's like a, I think that there's like a,

It kind of shows the depth of love mothers have for their children, too, and how much they want their children to succeed and do more and be better and be happy. And, you know, like our mothers fight for us and set us up so that we will have a better life than they did. And like that is, I think, I hope maybe, I don't know, I'm not a mom, but like the goal of being a mother is making sure your child is so happy.

doing well and is happy and things. And so it's kind of just like a display of like just the depth of love mothers can have. I think I felt. Yeah. Well, and it's like kind of in opposition to the only real mother figure we get to see of the gods is Hera. Right. And we get that really early on with that dinner or that conversation at the table with Zeus and Dionysus. It's like, don't talk to your mother that way. She's not my mother. And

And yeah, you know, that's kind of interesting is like we get to see Hera the most of any... We see Persephone's Belialia, their female goddess. The heartbreaking part is we don't actually get to see Hera as a mother. As a mother, no. Yeah. She's actually the one who's kind of destroying like all the... We have like this really horrific scene. Oh.

with her and the human making her give birth and everything. But I think I agree with both of you. It's because of that really deep love that the mothers have for their children that they're willing to sacrifice at least for

a certain amount of time, the relationship they have with them in order to cater to that bigger goal and that bigger plan. And I really like how

I'm sorry, Reed's mom and kind of use his mom, like come, like we see they come together at the end, like something we were not expecting, like necessarily, but it's like, it's there all along. Like the, they already knew they were already serving. Um,

this like a bigger, like, um, plan that, uh, is out there. And it's, I mean, it's heartbreaking. Yes. But also like, so like empowering in the moment. And the fact that we get to see, um, that they, um,

I mean, with really we don't like physical acid, but with Kainéos and Eri that they actually like reunite. I think like in that moment is where everything starts like changing. Yeah. Yeah. And I think there's also a question of like, we get the sense because Prometheus is our narrator that like he and the fates to some degree are orchestrating all of this.

And I definitely we're going to talk about the fates again today, even though they're not mortals. They are so involved in this. But there was one moment I remembered about Prometheus is like he seemed to be the planner, except when Ari ends up killing Prometheus.

I can't remember if it's the son is killed or when Ari kills her father, because he also has a like, oh, damn, that just happened moment. Like he looks at us share like sharing in the shop that that just happened as if that wasn't according to plan all of a sudden. And so I am I'm sorry.

Still sad the story doesn't continue because I'm really curious about like, you know, who ends up being kind of the grand orchestrator of these women coming together with their children to affect change in the world. So I that's I think one of those questions that will never really get answered. But it was really cool to see.

Yeah. So we, like I said, we're definitely going to talk more about these three characters. But I feel like we always kind of end up not talking about Orpheus as much. And he is important, but

To the storyline, but not necessarily the same degree. Yeah. Like, I think one of my favorite lines, and I wrote it down here, is Prometheus narrates at one point when Orpheus is in the other world, Orpheus is useful. An eagle like that has no trouble accepting the notion of a cosmic purpose and no suspicion that that purpose might be co-opted. And I absolutely love that line because...

what's ironic is like this whole show gives you the sense of like there's a cosmic purpose out there like there's something happening but it's almost as prometheus is saying it's like yeah orpheus isn't really a part of it though he's just convenient to it this is like he's like a cog in the machine he keeps things moving but he is not it's not about him it's not his purpose you know but like

I don't know. My biggest thing with Orpheus, I'm like, why are his eyebrows like that? I always was constantly writing that down. I'm like, was that a choice? Is that just this man's eyebrows? I think it's just his eyebrows in general. It was very distracting to me. I can't remember. Is he Irish or Welsh or something like that? I believe. Killian?

Yeah, shall we all have interesting eyebrows? But yeah, so the reason I wanted to bring Orpheus up, so Orpheus and Theseus...

are probably like the two, some of the two best known hero, Greek hero names, um, that would be familiar to people. Um, Theseus is even more of a background character, uh, in the show. So that, that, that could be interesting to talk about, but I was just kind of trying to look at Orpheus and it's like, does Orpheus function like a traditional Greek hero in mythology? And, um,

what is the need for that? Or especially as like, if there's a need for it, Prometheus gets to talk about it as like, it's a throwaway. He's necessary to set up these other people to succeed, basically. Yeah. I mean, I can go for it. Give it a try. Sure. So he's an interesting character in certain ways. I think like his main like purpose or goal in the story world of K is like kind of becoming like

as a foil for Reedy almost. And I mean, if it weren't for him, like going to the underworld, then Reedy might not have like been able to come back and like become prophet. And as we, as it is implied, at least at the end and being the one who can kind of breach the two worlds and liberate the living. But, and I've always had like horror

or if he is in my mind but like in the the ancient like the mythological figure in this or if he's like because in my mind he's not generally like the traditional great hero i mean yeah okay in the ergonomic like he partakes in the ergonotica he um takes on this like a larger in the life journey to the underworld so these are aspects that would um make him a great hero but also like

Especially after a certain point in time in the ancient world, what I also think about like a hero, like performing all these like greater than life deeds, it's like, what is the purpose of them? So is it a self-serving?

act or is it like uh catering to like a greater good in a sense and with orpheus at least in his um the storyline with um eurydice it's mostly it's self-serving yeah so he will bring her back but he's bringing her back for his own like self he can leave without her right yeah and

I mean, in Chaos, he takes her coin. It's a very self-absorbed love. Absorbed love, sorry. So I have trouble with Arfus, to be honest. He ends up being more interesting because you're right. He's very self-serving in the show of the taking of the coin. And that's kind of like one of these...

things you don't realize in your first watch through until it's revealed that like why Riddhi is stuck in the underworld is because Orpheus took her coins because he loves her so much that he didn't want to like lose the chance of her disappearing completely which is weird

Wild. It's really wild. Yeah. Because no one understands how the afterlife works. Right. And we cannot take out from him the fact that he really suffered like a lot when he loses her, like in both in the mythological world and the chaos, like story world. And that's also like a quality that we see in here is like this capacity for like great suffering. Yeah.

even more so like in tragic heroes in a way than the like epic style heroes we usually have in mind but still like

the reasons why he acts upon and in chaos like he needs dionysus to actually kind of like push him towards that and initially he's not granted like dionysus has again to intervene for him to actually make it to the underworld because the fates were like you know what he did he took his loved ones coins so how

on earth like I was supposed to like allow him to go down and get her like would she be better off without him yeah and I love that that was juxtaposed against this little family who's also involved in this contest at the cave there they want to go and bring their young son back and like and like

It's literally him or the dad to bring the son back that has to be sacrificed and it's a kind of. Now that I'm thinking about it I had this conversation recently where someone pointed out that love is kind of like a cosmic horror, how we can think about it like it's.

And if you think about Orpheus's love for Ritty, supposedly, it leads to some truly horrible things that he does in the name of love. And I think why it kind of works is he stays true to it to the very end. Like, he successfully is the only human to travel to the underworld because...

He does choose not to, I think, take the drink, the cup of water. He's like he refuses, even though he's thirsty, even though like that could be a selfish act. His selfishness is for his love of Riddhi. And so I think that's also why Riddhi has such a hard time walking away from him, because it is authentic in that he feels the strong love for her.

And I think we were talking about this with somebody else. I don't know. But it was like on my second walkthrough, watch through of chaos when it gets to that point with Riddhi and Orpheus and her walking away. But of that being like such a hard break because there is still love there, even if that love is maybe not good. I was like, I'm watching it through my second time. I was like, oh shit, I have experienced this. Like it reminded me of my, my, um,

my ex from like who we broke up like two years ago when I was like I sat there and I watched this moment and seeing her struggle so much with that decision because there is still love there even if it isn't always good at times there's still that like we have made a life together and built a life together and I still there's stuff you're not a bad person just not the right person for me that struggle like it resonated so much and I remember seeing them just being like oh I get it I get why it hurts and I get the

the goodbye and sort of like that stuff. Like the thing that I, it was interesting is like that love is depicted in so many different ways in the show. Like, yes it is, you know, like Orpheus, I guess in a way his life is, his love is self-serving, but it is, it is so self-serving for this one person. Like he wants to give so much to her and it makes him feel good.

But he wants to give it to her, but it benefits him in the end versus her and Witty and Kainéas where it's just like, oh, that's the... It's mutual. Yeah, it's mutual. And so it's, I don't know, it's interesting. And Orpheus is...

I just love that Orpheus doesn't do anything by himself, too. His career and his songs are because of Riddhi. Getting to the underworld Dionysus, getting across the river, well, that was Charon. And the fates, right? He had to provide the mark. When he actually gets to the underworld and is trying to convince to let Riddhi back out, it was like Medusa and Riddhi were really the ones who were like, okay, let's get out. And Persephone. Persephone.

Aunt Persephone stepping in. He is just like a cog. He is just a vehicle for other people to sort of move along, which is very funny. Poor guy. He doesn't have his own agency or really life, I think. Yeah, exactly. I agree with this point about love and being portrayed in so many different ways. Yeah, he's truly everything he does stems from that love for her, but

In a sense, going back to the myth, in that love relationship, we don't get to see what her take is until the moment we learn that she's about to leave because she's suffocating. It's a really strong love.

But for her, yeah. But it is suffocating. Exactly. It's what he would think that anyone like one or like even other people might think about it. But for the person like on the other end, like experiencing that type of life, it's like it's devastating. She can't take it anymore.

Yeah, and it's like, it sort of constructs her as something. So it also feels like to the person like, do you actually love me or do you love the idea of me, the thing you have created of me? Because she's like his muse, but she doesn't want to have this role. That's not what she signed up for. Exactly. Exactly.

And I think that's what kind of ends up being interesting about Orpheus as a character. And I would say even Theseus, because he kind of just disappears once a Sion X is saved. We don't know what ended up happening, if he was executed later or not. But it doesn't actually matter. And the one thing is, the end of this season, as far as I care, that's the end of Orpheus' story. He doesn't necessarily play a part anymore. Mm-hmm.

I feel like his story is complete because they did such good closure of that relationship between the two of them. Now, can you still do something with them? Sure. But I think that was the best part was like, but you don't need to because he got co-opted for someone else's story. And that was...

done so well so and in a case like that aspect is almost like a mini reversal of like the ancient myth as well because once like he turns back and looks at Eurydice like she's gone that's end up for like story and like myth life for as whereas like he gets to go on and like suffer a bit more and has his own like tragic end right but

But for Eurydice, it's like, it's over. That's it. There's nothing else that we're learning about her. And in the show, it's like, that's it. Like, he has completed his life for the purposes of this, like, show. And we don't necessarily have to have him back. Yeah. It's literally one of the only characters that I'm like, if he didn't come back...

That would be okay. Yeah. It wouldn't bug me. Not that I didn't like the actor, not that I didn't like the character, but just, like, I felt like that story was complete. He always brought a smile to my face, is what I'll say. It's because of his sort of, like, helplessness. Like, he was almost like the helpless maiden in the story. And his earnestness about it, right? Like, he's going to do everything to the best of his ability. And it's so adorable. And I'm just like, look at him go, man. Yeah.

wow he needs to like his next album he needs to be his own muse like he needs to write his like catabasis album yeah

Oh, God. What a silly guy. So that kind of brings me to the next, I think, big mid-discussion point that I wanted to unpack was I think it's time to talk about the fates and prophecies because that is something that is shaping a lot of the story. And we're told in the show by Prometheus that only mortals hold prophecies. And we're told that because he's trying to point out that Zeus and the family were once...

mortal. So that's why Zeus has a prophecy. And what's interesting, though, is that like, and I think we have this question,

Prometheus also tells us that the, I think it's just the Furies, but I would, I would think the fates are also there that he says like they're as old as the gods, except they're older, which suggests that they exist outside of the system of meander water that Zeus developed. And so I don't think we'll ever have an answer to this question fully, but I'm really curious to like know what your guys' takes are. It's like, what do we think the fates and the Furies are? And yeah,

you know, what, how important are prop is prophecy and fate to the story overall.

Now at Verizon, we have some big news for your peace of mind. For all our customers, existing and new, we're locking in low prices for three years guaranteed on MyPlan and MyHome. That's future you peace of mind. And everyone can save on a brand new phone on MyPlan when you trade in any phone from one of our top brands. That's new phone peace of mind. Because at Verizon, whether you're already a customer or you're just joining us,

We got you. Visit Verizon today. Price guarantee applies to then current base monthly rate. Additional terms and conditions apply for all offers. If you're a lineman in charge of keeping the lights on, Grainger understands that you go to great lengths and sometimes heights to ensure the power is always flowing, which is why you can count on Grainger for professional grade products and next day delivery. So you have everything you need to get the job done. Call 1-800-GRAINGER, click grainger.com or just stop by.

Ranger, for the ones who get it done.

Hey guys, it's Hannah from Giggly Squad. You know I love beauty and that's why I go to Sephora. It's not just shopping, it's like a glam experience. The beauty advisors actually get beauty unlike those big box stores and they give me all the advice I need and I love going with the products you can only find at Sephora like my new favorite Kiali fragrance, my perfect shade of House Labs foundation, and finally restocked my Laneige lip mask. All with the help of real experts. Oh

Oh, and if you haven't tried Day Shampoo, go try it. It's a game changer. Sephora isn't just a store. It's the beauty destination. Go. You'll thank me later. I think we briefly touched on this last time as well, where in my sort of understanding of sort of like the Greek mythos, Greek cosmology, ancient Greek mythology,

it's kind of like divided into almost like generations. And the older generations kind of have this like primordialness, sort of like this everlastingness that like doesn't happen with the younger generations, right? And the fates and the furies are always very old in this. Like they just are. They just exist. They are just things like they are just things of the world versus...

agents acting in the world in a sense you know like it's almost like they don't need to be

personified in the way that they are in the show and the way that they are in Greek myth because they're just they just exist just like things that will happen versus the later gods like Zeus and the Olympians there's less conceptualness to them they're a bit more concrete in how they are presented and understood so it's and you know when I look at like ancient Greek texts and stuff

There is that sense of Zeus is like... Zeus can't go against fates. Zeus can't... The gods can't go against fates. The gods can't go against furies. You know, they're always a little bit scared of them too because they were there before. They just...

you know, they are the system versus people existing within the system or agents existing within the system. No, I agree that they are this primordial creature outside the human or even the divine senses in a way, but they're always there and they have...

They're creating the framework for everyone else to become an agent in the world and the stories. So, yeah, I agree with that. And I think we kind of see that in chaos in the sense that, yes, they have a corporeal existence. But once, theoretically, Zeus kills them,

that doesn't mean really anything. Like at the end, they are still there. Like we hear, they don't have to have like a human like appearance or like a physical, in a sense, existence because fate, both like in the record, like,

Greek, let's say, or ancient Greek understanding of the world, it's there and it's what you carry as your destiny. So it pre-

dates you in a sense. And it's going to be there like after you, uh, in a way. So, and like at the end, it looks like when they talk, we just hear like, like talking to Prometheus and, uh, telling him like, you can like destroy fate again. Like there is no like point in trying and you just had to like, uh, be a little patient, actually see, um,

what you've planned and what you're destined to do, like coming to life. But they're also giving him this, I don't even know if it's like real or ironic sense of, well, now you're free, but you get to decide what you do with your freedom. But is this like really true with what we know about fate and even like in the way it's presented, like in Hesiod or on Herodotus or in Homer, even the gods,

have their own kind of like destiny. So it's there, it's already faded. So what are we to make with that? Like at the end? Yeah, I like that.

I think bringing up the idea that the form that we see them in the show is a construction for mortals and the gods to comprehend and try and hold conversations to understand what this force is. And they kind of point out, and it's like in trying to create this construction of what we are, you are making it be. Yeah.

And it's like, you could kill us. You could ignore us. You could choose to do all these different things and like,

I think that's kind of the question that always comes up with especially Greek mythology like I love fate and prophecy in Greek mythology is like how do we tackle that with this concept we like a free will of like oh we can choose like what to do with it and like we're not beholden to a particular destiny like that's how we want to feel about things

And the fates are kind of like, yeah, we agree with that. But here we are. Yeah. And the thing is, like, with the ancient, like, the Greek mythological stories we have and literary stories, like, it looks like

even when people like try to fight it or try to avoid it, like at the end, their prophecy or like they can't avoid it. Like it's going to happen. So that's why like it's so interesting and intriguing at the same time for me, like the way at the end, like in chaos, they tell like Prometheus, you're free, you choose what to do. But really? Like, because we know that's not...

That's not how it works, at least like in the intergroup. And I find too, at least when it comes to prophecies, the more you try to fight it, the worse off it is. And I think there's a message in that where, you know, of the question of free will, because prophecies are so...

nebulas are so beautiful. Like they do not mean one thing. They can mean a hundred things. And if you sit there and obsess about it, it's probably going to end up being really bad versus if you just live your life. And if you just, you know,

try to just enjoy life and like exist and all these things. Maybe, yeah, probably the prophecy will come true at some point. And you might not even notice. It might just be a little thing that happens, you know, and you're like, Oh,

Okay. And you go on, move on versus if you obsess about it and you try so hard to make this one interpretation you have of it in your brain not happen, you're spending too much time on it and you're giving it too much energy and it becomes something terrible and horrible and explodes in your face.

Yeah. And everything around you, like every little thing you do on like in your daily life, you interpret it as like, oh, this is it. This is it. So it's you are kind of being like absorbed in this and you like forget to live. Yeah.

And I think the show did a good job of exploring all of those ideas through we only know three prophecies in this entire show. So we know of the one shared by Zeus and Riddick, Gnaeus and Ari, and they all interpret it completely different. Yeah.

they, you know, they connect it to some aspect of their own lived experience. And Zeus is very much the one obsessing over it, right? Like the other three are kind of like...

Whatever. It exists. I think Canaeus maybe takes it the hardest because he's died. And so therefore he's like, you know, I was living in defiance of the gods and that's why my world fell apart, basically. So I think he has the harshest view of the mortals on it.

And then we have another example. We have King Minos and his prophecy, which he misunderstands. And I'm again, putting that in quotes, because again, these, these prophecies are so nebulous that,

that you can make them fit certain circumstances. And in this case, King Minos was uninformed of who took the first breath of his children. So like that misinformation allowed for the prophecy to come true in a way that we might all understand it from like a Greek mythology perspective of like Oedipus is like, kill your father, marry your mother. Oh, I'll just avoid that. And in doing so, it comes about. But I think what's interesting about King Minos is that

He kind of effectively was able to like shove his prophecy aside for a period of time. And it's not until Zeus and Poseidon push him to make the prophecy impossible. As far as I understood it. By killing a Steinex. No, not a Steinex. Asterion. By killing his son Asterion. Well, Glaucus. In the show Glaucus. Yeah. It is Glaucus. Okay. I don't know.

Where did I get Asterion? Asterion is the correct name though, right? Okay. That's the mythological. Okay. Okay. Yeah. You're absolutely true. Chaos. Okay. But yeah. And it's also...

Really heartbreaking, too. Like you see the way the way that Minos feels like he has subverted his prophecy and, you know, avoided it. And it hurts everyone around him very drastically. Like it hurts his son by, you know, essentially he's now put his son in a situation where he's being mentally tortured his entire life. That is horrific. It it hurts his wife.

Because she now has to, you know, she has a different view of her daughter and she has lost a child and all these things. And it hurts his daughter so much. So it's like it was a very it was extremely like selfishly motivated. And then you see how that affects.

like explodes outward and hurts everybody else within the family unit. Cause now his daughter has to grow up thinking she killed her brother and has to, has a horrible relationship with her mother because her mom, when she looks at her, she just thinks of her dead son. And, and,

It's just heartbreaking. And it's so, when the theories are showing her, like, here are the true events, that moment where her mom walks in and, like, picks her up and is, like, cooing all over her and talking, like, oh, you're so beautiful, so lovely, my beloved Ari. Like, that broke my heart to see, like, to know that that is what she could have had her whole life and she didn't because her dad made up some lie is...

horrible and it's oh yeah and like made up a lie that put on her like yeah she was the one to be blamed like um for the death and um what i find really interesting in his storyline is that we can like

see very clearly how like power dynamics in the systems of oppression work because he does that yes okay so that he continue like

um, on with his like line of power, but he's also like serving the gods who are putting on like this very clear, like framework and burden on him that no, you, you don't play by your rules. You play by our rules. So you do what we tell you to do. And of course, then he takes that on and puts it on his own, like family has then to like,

carried, like, this trauma and, of course, everybody's altered and, like, at the end when Ari kills him, I find, like, this moment, like, really...

powerful when pacify that goes to her and like hugs her and he like she tells her like I killed dad and is like good like yeah thank you like yes that's it and she was also like part of this like really oppressed like circle and traumatic really yeah um

I think what's also interesting to think about is that I imagine he feels guilt for making that decision to protect his life, basically. And he does try to make it up to Ari by, like, you can tell he loves her. Yeah. Like, there's this love. Yeah. And he wants to make up for it. But...

Anastasia, as you pointed out, like, but he's also part of this hierarchical system where he has a very powerful position within it, but he's still beholden to the gods. And so like one of the first times we, we get actually get to see him put his love for his daughter. Second is she asked as a promise for her birthday present to have the, the Trojans pardoned for this crime that they supposedly committed. Yeah.

And initially he says yes. And then Poseidon shows up. It's like, nope, you have to execute them. You have to. And he does.

So like we also got a foreshadowing or I don't know if it's foreshadowing or aftershadowing because he's already done this before. We just aren't aware of it until later in the show. And I think that's really interesting because, again, we can see this character that has love and affection for this person. But it's it's kind of seeing that that love and affection isn't.

it's misplaced in some way. Like it doesn't take the prior, in this case, it doesn't take the priority it needs to versus Orpheus's always takes priority. Um, like,

and I think in that moment, like when Ari starts like reconsidering, like what is happening in her life, like she has this kind of like awakening moment. And then, then of course, like the viewers come in, like make it very clear for her, but she, she really loves her father. She's really, um,

respecting and admiring him and then the moment like she asks something like really big and she most probably has he has never like denied any requests of her before because I think there's genuine love but to a certain degree where it doesn't mess up with like his own like agenda like life like actually preserving his life she's like oh wait like what is happening yeah

Yeah, and I think that ends up being kind of one of the interesting questions with Ari and like what her storyline would have been going forward is like how is she going to navigate holding a position of power against the gods because the gods are well, but the gods are fracturing too so like Poseidon has left.

Does this mean you go to war with Zeus and decided? And then I think the thing I love too is the little tidbit at Dionysus watching and him just going, I'm in love. Seeing that and him heading there. One of my favorite moments. She's going to be against the gods, but here's this one god who...

He has a thing for her. And he is, as we've said earlier, he is sort of that bridge between humanity and the gods. And he is the human one of the gods, really. Yeah, and he's the one god who tried to help Orpheus. He has been siding with the humans. I think at some point he's the one telling Zeus, but like, dad, they're not all bad.

Yeah. You're a human. You don't spend time with them. Yeah, you don't know them, right? Exactly. Yeah. So I think that would be really interesting to see, like, how does she go against being against the gods, but then having this one god who is just, I don't know, like her little pet god who's just obsessed with her and wants to do everything for her right there. Yeah.

Well, and I also think because, again, he walks up with the meander and his father presented him with the choice either. Because like what's interesting about Dionysus is he's not only making a choice between like the gods and humanity. He is kind of making a choice between being part of this patriarchal family god structure or meander.

or not and so like he initially he's just trying to get his dad's approval and like get a higher position like he wants a more powerful position amongst the gods um but he's realizing the cost of that because his dad sacrifices a kitten right in front of all of us and we hate it so much

And says like, you have to kill your, you have to kill love, right? Like it, cause it makes you weak is what Zeus is telling us. And now Dionysus has to decide. It was like, okay, do I stick with my original goal of being a part of the family, being someone my dad is proud of, or do I give up my immortality and embrace my humanity? And that's kind of scary. Cause I don't know what that system looks like. What does a world without gods look like?

It's a lot. And I think that's one of the reasons why it's a great show. Like there is a lot to unpack and a lot of different ways of approaching it. And also like,

it can very nicely become an entry point into like the ancient world, but also into discussions about our very own like current moment. And they like the way they've reworked the myths in such a way that pretty much serves as this like framework to talk about our like,

present like moment, um, it really, um, in my mind, um, really re, uh,

Harshala Pettid reminds us of what like the myths were supposed to do in the ancient world as well. Yeah. For sure. Yeah. I think that's why this feels like such a good, smart example of Greek retellings and reception. Cause it's like, it is putting so many things in our modern world in conversation with these old stories and refreshing the stories as a result. Exactly. And because like myths,

as they were constructed and understood and used in the ancient world, they create this necessary distance from the present moment so that you can kind of disengage with your emotional state that might not allow you to actually process what you're hearing or reading or watching that can be very, at times, painful or at times just really making you think about

your current moment. And it's sometimes like easier instead of like seeing like entirely or clearly yourself into the context, like having this distance to actually, um, make, like take the step and put yourself into the context. I think like chaos does it this very like nicely, uh, by using like the mist to actually talk about, um,

the daily life like aspects we deal with, but also this bigger like questions of like who we are, what our world is currently, how do we go back to this understanding of ourselves and the world as like a unity and how we come together to like resist certain things that are trying to impose on us the frameworks that we can not, that we should not be working in.

Yeah. So, so that brings me to the one other prophecy we hear. And it comes from what, and we've had a couple conversations so I've definitely rethought about this character a lot. It comes from Prue. And if you remember, Prue is one of these characters in the underworld with Canaeus and Riddhi. Oh yeah. Yeah.

And she wants to be a diver. She is someone who's very like by the book in the system and like will tattle tell if like, oh, you didn't get in trouble for that. And she's Trojan. Yeah.

which we know from the marks on her forehead. And so this came up in our conversation while we were at canvas of just like, yeah, what if she's a Trojan who died in the Trojan war that led to this huge refugee crisis that we see happening in the show and how she might be representative of someone who is, you know,

you know in a in a stable society it's like oh everyone follow the rules so everything runs correctly and then we get to see with the other trojan characters it's like when the rules don't protect you anymore and your world is destroyed what do you have to do to survive and so it's kind of a great like she's kind of a great before picture of maybe what trojan society was like

And she, she gives us her prophecy, and it goes a dark haired creature, a winter fall, eyes do not shut, not barely at all.

And again, very ominous, very like non-specific. And this is the way she read it. She interpreted it to be about a pet horse that she had who fell and broke its leg and had to be put down. And then she experienced insomnia for the rest of her life. So it's a great example of how like you can have a personal prophecy and just read like something completely ordinary into it.

But at the same time, it's like, what if that's actually a reference to the Trojan horse, like a fake horse that shows up and its eyes don't close? Truly. I, kind of going off of the marks that the Trojans have, I kind of, the way I perceived it was that that was something they got afterwards. Like, for me, it felt like a distinguisher of

once Troy fell, like this is how you can like physically mark that people are othered, you know? That's a good point. Cause we don't know when Prue actually died. Yeah. And so I was always like, cause, cause in a way then, you know, when you are a person who is othered in society or who has been put in like sort of that position of

Like I can talk like, like, like indigenous people in North America and Canada, you know, people in my community, you are either follow the rules, follow the rules that keeps you safe, you know, follow the rules to the T, even if it is to a detriment of us, because that will at least do keep you safe. It'll keep you out of prison. You'll be going down a right road versus the people who go, no, this system is trying to erase us.

And I'm going to defy that. And, you know, the crime that we see the Trojans do is like, it's so tame. I'm like, sure, for people who believe in a system, that would be extremely horrific.

But that is not that bad, and it does not deserve death. And you can see people who live in, who are othered, or who live in diaspora, or who are, you know, minorities in communities, rebel in those ways that are very, very small, really, in context. But it is making a point. It is saying, we are here, we want to survive. And I think that's interesting between Clu and then, you know, all the other Trojans. And then I also think it's interesting that

Prue being the one who is super buy the book, do everything right. She's the dead one. The ones who are, you know, until they put them to death, the ones who are pushing back and who are actively kind of fighting, they're still alive versus Prue who maybe was like, let's work within the system, whatever, but try not to make a scene, try not to make any waves. She's the one who ends up dying and she's in the underworld now.

Now at Verizon, we have some big news for your peace of mind. For all our customers, existing and new, we're locking in low prices for three years guaranteed on MyPlan and MyHome. That's future you peace of mind. And everyone can save on a brand new phone on MyPlan when you trade in any phone from one of our top brands. That's new phone peace of mind. Because at Verizon, whether you're already a customer or you're just joining us,

We got you. Visit Verizon today. Price guarantee applies to then current base monthly rate. Additional terms and conditions apply for all offers. Hey guys, it's Hannah from Giggly Squad. You know I love beauty and that's why I go to Sephora. It's not just shopping. It's like a glam experience. The beauty advisors actually get beauty unlike those big box stores and they give me all the advice I need. And I love going with the products you can only find at Sephora like my new favorite Kiali fragrance.

my perfect shade of House Labs foundation, and finally restocked my Laneige lip mask, all with the help of real experts. Oh, and if you haven't tried Day Shampoo, go try it. It's a game changer. Sephora isn't just a store. It's the beauty destination. Go. You'll thank me later. If you're a lineman in charge of keeping the lights on, Grainger understands that you go to great lengths and sometimes heights to ensure the power is always flowing.

which is why you can count on Granger for professional grade products and next day delivery. So you have everything you need to get the job done. Call 1-800-GRANGER, click granger.com, or just stop by. Granger, for the ones who get it done. And the thing to consider with Prue too is she didn't have coins. Therefore, she stuck in the underworld. She didn't get to, what's the word? Reset? No. Reset.

I know, I'm blanking all of a sudden. Go through the thingamabobber. Yeah, go through the frame. Go through the frame and re... Refresh. Yeah, it's like refresh is all that's coming to mind. But no one knows what actually is supposed to happen. Like, we find out what is happening. Are we talking about the renewal, like...

Renewal! Okay. It's like, what are we talking... They were supposed to renew, but they never did. Yes. There is something to suggest. Renewal is a real thing, or...

What happened before the meander water system was put into place, something happened. And not even the gods know what that is. They just know they're disrupting what was the original natural order of things and it's causing problems. But yeah, long story short, Prue also, as this by-the-books kind of character, did not receive coins. Now, again, I think that ties into...

a possible reading of if there's a Trojan war that has happened that's displaced all these people, you know, how many people die in these mass killing events that never receive proper burial. And that she could be a result of that. You know, I don't, I think Prue is one of these characters that we were kind of meant to like find annoying and not want to think too much about. And she was going to be really important down the line.

Potentially. Yeah. And I was thinking about this point of like the, like going a little bit further back, the punishment that the Trojan like received in that frame, which like totally like,

out of proportion for what they've done, right? But again, it allows us to see in a way how paranoic at this point, like Zeus is becoming. How like, of course, like we've seen he makes like that narcissist and this like characterized by his megalomania. But now he's like, clearly we see the abuser of power like Zeus. Yeah.

that is like, no, like this needs to happen for no big reason, right? But it's, which makes things even like worse, but also allows for this dead three going back to the more of characters to gradually find themselves like not being able to take this anymore and actually starting to like awaken and finding in them

to say no like things need to be done differently yeah yeah i i think that scene and maybe this we can talk about the trojans a little bit more broadly because again this is a storyline that's teased in a lot of ways and i think was going to be really important in one of the subsequent seasons because like cassandra is also one of my favorite characters and you barely get anything with her but love her every time i see her and and

There is no clear. It's a Sion X and a few other young Trojans who get a bunch of cow excrement or something and throw it on this monument to be revealed for the gods. And Zeus is furious and he he is worried like he's already got this prophecy in mind that this will slip into something even worse. Right. Like it's not actually that it's.

It's not a big crime at all. It's funny. Like, you know what the message was and intent was. But the response is so cruel. And it's forced. That response is forced through the actions of other mortals, King Minos in particular. And I think that's...

One of my questions then is, was the Stianics and the other Trojans, was this message for King Minos and the people of Crete being like, hey, you're treating us like shit, so we're going to disrupt the

this gift that you're giving to the gods or is there maybe it's both maybe there is this a message to the gods because they also had a greater role in what happened to Troy um that's been hinted out in that first season but we don't get a lot of background on I think it might be a

the way that King mine is presenting and he like presents his rulership as well. It's like really, um, directly like connected to the gods. So it's like a vessel of the gods, um, in the world of the world. It's like, it's, um, a pretty like clear structured, like rulership in that way. So I think it goes both ways, uh, potentially within that. Yes, of course. Like,

They're like government, the people who are really treating them like nothing. They have really put them on the side and trying to restrict them.

But also that is kind of like a rulership that comes down. It's a kind of a way of governing that's almost like inherited from the divine world, it seems. So I think it could go both ways. But I would love to have seen more of that, and especially at the end with Ari forming this alliance with...

Andromache, who's now the leader of the Trojans. And I mean, she clearly turns like, help me or help us. That's the mutual contract. Take the gods down. Help me find the gods. And I think too, I think is...

They operate within the same sort of belief system, you know? Mm-hmm. So the Trojans were, you know, of a different city. Yeah.

but they believe in sort of the same gods but then when you see these these um things happening in heracleon and crete like um it reminds me of how you know in antiquity each each city is its own little thing um and each thing has the own way of um own like religious festivals and sort of religious calendar right so now like this is crete's this is heracleon's way of doing things and

especially with Minos feeling so connected, like getting his position from the gods, this is important to him and would be important to the people of Crete. I feel like there was that implication there. We owe this to this specifically. The Trojans don't have that. They may believe in the gods, but they're like, it's almost in a way, it's like, it's almost like not my gods, but like not the way I interact with my gods. This is important. Yeah.

And so I don't know. I feel like for me, it felt more of a message to the people of Crete than to the gods. But like likely, I mean, sure, to the gods as well. But like, I wonder how many people are actually as obsessed with the gods in that world versus what we see. Like we have, I don't remember her name, the woman who's always wanted to be a Tacita. Yeah. Yeah. I want to say... Agatha? Agatha?

that's kind of what I was leaning towards as Agatha. I think so. Yeah, like, you see that there are some people who are super intense about it, but, like, everybody else is kind of just like, do-do-do-do-do, like, it doesn't seem like it's... Well, you have Tacitus, too. Yeah, but that's still a small percentage of people compared to the vast majority of people. Like, it could, there could be, like,

I don't know, a friend who refers to herself as a salad bar Catholic. She's like, you know, it's like, it could be a, it's a cultural thing versus intense belief. Like we have that in our world too, where we have different sort of registers. So, and younger generations tend to kind of

slip away from things for a while um you know and so stion acts on his friends i mean i can understand their anger um and their anger it could be perceived towards the gods it could also be perceived but towards those who are actively oppressing them day to day yeah

It's interesting because like one of the things that Zeus is doing that we're aware of is he's like, I'm like, I need people to come back to God, have a come to Jesus moment. But I'm Jesus. I'm God. So he's doing all of these like mass weather events and things like that. And, you know, historically, archaeologically, we see evidence so clear.

because I do ancient medicine is like when plagues start to happen we see more dedications to healing gods and healing cults and that's when Asclepius gets really big in Athens and then later when the plague goes to Rome they're like let's bring this guy over here too and so there can definitely be events that bring people to religion more and be interesting to see if like

Maybe part of this backlash, maybe what you have to start dealing with are these like groups of people are like, oh, we really need to get religious again. We really need to fix this problem. The iconoclasm was very similar, right? Like when...

Christian, you know, Christianity in Europe and was being threatened by Islam. And they're like, oh, well, they don't show God. They don't show their prophets and images. So we're going to get rid of all of ours. Like there's really strong reactions, religious reactions when things are going poorly. So I think that could be an interesting way to explore it. If it's not just Troy, it's like, oh, Troy is just went off.

Now, if it's happening everywhere in the world, maybe we're going to get a little religious now. Which I think, again, would have spoken really well to our current situation of, you know, there's a lot happening in the world and there's also these religious movements that are supposedly offering solutions to that problem. So I think that could have been really interesting to see in the long run. Yeah, and I think, I think,

So one of my predictions is because we see Riddhi with Cassandra at the end, I'm like, yes, I think there would have been a visit to Troy. Maybe we would have learned. I think that was a good observation because I think we're told Poseidon, Zeus gave Poseidon Crete to deal with as he wanted.

And so it would be really interesting if like Troy was another place given to someone to rule over. And maybe that's one of the reasons why children are not talking to Zeus. Even children that we would expect to talk to Zeus like Athena or something. I don't think she would be very pro-Trojan. No, she has her own city already. Yeah, yeah.

So I think that would have been interesting to see if there was more gods involved and we see why there's already been a splintering amongst the family before what we saw this season. Which gods are connected to Troy? Poseidon. Because he helped build the walls and everything. So you have Aphrodite. Aphrodite. Aphrodite.

I could have been so good Aphrodite? It's Daddy Artemis? It's Papooza I think Aphrodite and Artemis got Aphrodite got Daddy Artemis was mostly just to get anytime she can be against Hera she's happy to be opposite of Hera because I remember that being part of the Iliad she gets boxed by Hera because she's like I don't want to do that

So, yeah, I think that could have been really interesting. Apollo, I think, is the one I think of when I think of Troy as well. Yeah. He did some stuff there. Yeah, and Ares. Yeah. Ares makes a lot of sense. Yeah.

Although, oh, that would have been so interesting because Ares is the son of Hera. Yeah. But the husband or the, like, plaything of Aphrodite, oh, that could have been so fun. Because I, like, I also wanted, like, at the end when Hera is, like, calling. Yeah. Something, like, what would make sense in my head would be she's calling, like, Ares. That's who I thought. Because she's preparing for a war, right? Yep.

So that's the guy you would call. Yeah, that's definitely who I thought she was saying for sure. Sam, I was so excited. But I could. And then, yeah, that could be a great introduction into Aphrodite and this conflict at Troy that led to the refugee crisis and all of that.

can someone any streaming service just wrestle the rights to this show from netflix and maybe we petition like let's just like i don't know i think that's right you know what again it's like we just need more people to watch and be like where's the rest of this there needs to be more complain to make it happen complain until you get what you want yeah and um i think since like you brought up this um

idea of like Zeus and how broken like his relationship is with his own like kids I think the this reconnection of the mothers with their like daughters in the mortal world the mortal world like really like uh

that even further, like highlights even more so how broken their relationships are in this kind of like androcentric, like oppressive world of the gods, right? And how...

these three morals with the relationships they built or rebuild can actually change that. Yeah. And something I find interesting is whenever we see men in the positions of like, in the context of family or as fathers or something, they're never doing a good job of it. Like in the show, like I, who,

We have Zeus and Minos, so really the two dads we see. Even if they're well-meaning, they're not doing great. You know what I mean? Because I'll give Minos, even if he's well-meaning, not doing a good job of it. And I feel like when we see action that is...

pushing towards progress or change or this has like an echo of hope in it it is coming from women and it's also it's coming from mothers specifically like we see that with Andromache and like vaguely with Hecuba I mean Hecuba is old and tired that poor woman she needs you know to be part of things but Andromache is fighting she was fighting for her kids and even after her kids died she was fighting for the future kids

Yeah, it's coming from women and gender other care. Yeah. It's whoever has been in different ways othered or oppressed that really has this, cares with them, this hopefulness for change. Yeah. And there is affection and there is an actual genuine love

love of the world almost of humanity of what things could be versus what they are and like there's this like recognition of things that don't work so it's like how do we change this and it's I don't know I was just I love the view of mothers in this like even like even Hera like terrible mother but like I'm obsessed with her as a as a

As a character, I have my own thoughts of sort of like seeing her as a woman who is stuck within the system. And how do you function within the system? And, you know, not necessarily, she's not doing a great job, but she has some power and there is some affection there.

there in some ways even if it's shown in really like whoa that was a bad way of showing it or of doing things I would have loved to seen like where they would go with Hera because like Carly in my mind like how the show has gone for her she's very much like a part of

of the patriarchal structure. Like, she's all about, like, power for that matter. Like, the way she treats Zeus' lovers, like, turning them into bees and, like, having them... Like, there is some... I would agree there's some affection she has for them.

And for the Tacitas. And for the Tacitas too, but she's still using kind of like she's using everybody. She uses the system, I feel. And for me, at least when it comes to like the bees, in some way I see it as like as it removes them from Zeus's

dominion in a way like is it disturbing and not the right way to do it yes absolutely it's also a lot milder than some of her other punishments we know of yes from greek mythology yeah like she still puts them within a community of each other you see her out there caring for them too yeah it's yeah it's strange because it is but i think it's sort of like emblematic of

women who are stuck in the system and don't really who are trying to function within the system but not change the system yeah do you know what i mean like they're trying to just yeah kind of survive like in that system like find her place and like secure her place in the system but not necessarily trying to change it or like help yeah and then in a way she's trying to protect other people other women from it but she doesn't in a way that's not actually like yeah

Helpful. Helpful. Yeah. No, it's like, this is ultimately harmful, but. Well, and I, my thought too was that I think what the show did a good job and maybe I don't even think this was intentional was showing that these women kept being capable of building relationships with other people. So did Canaeus. And most of the male characters are very isolated. Orpheus is,

is so focused on just his love for Ritty. Right? So it's like his love for a woman isolates him. Zeus is very isolated. He's the one who tells us at the end of the season that, you know, love or caring for things is a weakness and you have to kill that weakness. So he is isolating himself. Poseidon

It's similarly like he kind of only really cares about Hera and Hera is also just using him because she can. It's beneficial to her. And I think Hades might be this weird exception because he does have Persephone and there's real affection there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But he's also obsessed with making his brother's system work and that's frustrating Persephone. So like you can see the strain that this system puts on people. And the funny thing is, is like,

Zeus believes that like his family is still his family he also still kind of believes that Prometheus is his best friend even though he's torturing him but he's still like having him I mean on that like rock like he's using him and he considers him like a best friend but he's still like no I like we don't have to be like all the time together and you're still like banished

Yeah. And I think and that's why the end too is like, okay, Zeus is truly isolated himself at the end and he's lost his power over Prometheus. And it looks like Prometheus has been put into a position of power. Yeah. It's really interesting to see then is Prometheus going to continue that? Is he going to?

because he did something similar to the mothers in making sacrifices for their children the relationship he sacrificed his relationship with caron to make this thing come about but he had to actually kill yeah his lover yeah and um like going back to like uh talking about hades that you mentioned i know like gods are not the main it's all good it's all good but

But what I find interesting, very interesting with him is, like, the first time he's introduced, you know how they do, like, this black screen with the letters, like, to introduce the character. Like, for him, there's a parenthesis that says, like, guilty conscience, which I find, like, very interesting because, yes, he's, like, helping Zeus and, like, trying to sustain, like, this framework they've created. But it looks like it's almost, like, eating him alive. Like, it's kind of killing him.

And the person, like, he's kind of losing his power. Yeah. He looks frail compared to Zeus. And Zeus appears scared of what becoming like Hades. Yeah. And I think the thing with Hades is he is confronted with it every day. He doesn't just benefit from it. He doesn't just get the benefits. He has to see it. He has to, you know, he is the one who has to go walk out and see these people who have had this happen to them. Like, he is the one who has to...

you know, watch all these dead people come and go through and sort of like he is living within that sort of structure while Zeus just benefits from it. You know, he gets his Neanderwater sent right. So removed from it. Yeah. Yeah. So he doesn't actually he's he's not aware of like

he doesn't have interaction with people he doesn't have interaction with them at the end and so like seeing Hades you know he has a guilty conscience like good yeah absolutely it's like that speaks volumes to his character that at least there is something about this that he knows like it weighs on him and it's like oh I don't like this this doesn't feel good for me um

um there's a bit there's some humanity and we're seeing that that little bits of humanity yep it's kind of delightful yeah yeah and like um if i may like drawing on that point about humanity which i think it's like it's the core like of the show like the beauty of it and also um what you chris said before about how zeus says like love is like a weakness it's what like would destroy the gods it's actually what kind of

brought me back into this idea of the three morals and their empowerment through myth, but also the relationships they build. Because I was reading some work of feminist philosophers like Lucy Riggory and the way she...

kind of states that, uh, mythology, uh, underlines patriarchy, like has not changed from the ancient to the modern world. Right. And she, um, kind of critiquing, uh, the patriarchal structures of the modern Western world. She kind of positions the murder of this like mythological mother, like Cladimnestra, uh, um,

but by arrests, like at the foundation of order in the male dominated sphere of the city. And what she, uh, suggests in a sense that retracing this like archetypal mother-child relationship and like rediscovering the relationship of love and support, um, between, um, women and the other characters is what can help kind of subvert this very like, um,

patriarchal-like structures of our world. And I was listening to an interview of Charlie Covell, and they said that one of their first, like, words, like, their engagement with the ancient world, of course, like, started with the Clash of the Titans and stuff, but they started, like, writing their own, like, mini playlists

plays kind of and the first one was Clytemnestra it was a play about Clytemnestra and I was like oh my okay wait could be a coincidence right very much but I like I make the connection I see the line appearing and the fall like almost being there I mean I was like that theory that you were talking about just checks out so much because if we go to the

oh shoot, the Aaronese, the Eumenides play where Orestes is on trial. And the argument is basically made, it's like, actually there is no blood relation between mother and child. She is just a mere vessel. And it's like, it's almost the ultimate separation of claim of this women grew humans in their body. Literally, by their, they are fed by it.

So... Dang. Yeah. And yeah, like re...

That's just it, right? And Athena agrees. I think that's what kills me about Athena as a Greek goddess. I don't think I can ever root for Athena because she acquiesces to that. She's always the guy's goddess. You know what I mean? I think as a kid, she was my favorite. But as I grow up, I'm seeing so much into her. And I'm like, ah. I think the thing is, when you see her when you're younger, you're like, wow, woman. She's so tough and cool.

And then you get older and older and you're like, Oh, Oh God. Oh God. She's agreeing with the patriarchal system too much. She's a pick me girl. She's a pick me girl. And it hurts. I mean, again, of course we have to situate in its own like time and place and what it serves to serve. But also when we have the chance to talk about this myth in the modern world, then there's also a responsibility we have to like explain that

what was that system and how it worked, but also how we engage with the narratives and stories now, because that really matters. And I, again, I think chaos did such a good job. Beautiful job of it. Yeah. Sorry, go ahead. I was just going to add, I think, I think,

I think love being a major component. Yes. Like for people, for each other, because we see at the very end when Kineas is able to bring his mother back, he has this flash of, of,

moments, not just with his mom, but like with everyone in his life. And that's what revives her basically. And like, that definitely was the overall message to me is like us actually caring about each other is what matters. Exactly. The love and support for one another can create like this line of power. Yeah. Almost like this line of life. Yes. That can fight back the,

not living the life because you're so preoccupied by sustaining like your power yeah like your prophecy your destiny your glory but I think it's a lot about like the power

Yeah, and I think it's also very much shown as an extremely human quality. And I think that is one of the things I really took away from the show and it's something I always look for. It's like where and why I also kind of love antiquity is seeing that humanness where you see it's like, oh, you know, that was a person because we love that much. We have that like...

we have the capacity for empathy and care and sympathy and, and for holding space for so many different things, even if they're small and banal, like, you know, people drop a pen and they go, Oh no, sorry. And they pick it up. Why are you apologizing to an inanimate object? Because there's like humans, we make connections with these, like, uh, what is it? Dogs, dogs, um, evolved eyebrows so they could better communicate with us.

I have a golden retriever. That is very true. Her eyes are so expressive. It is a very human thing to love and to care about people and to go out of your way to make sure people are okay and other things are okay and looked after. But in a society that doesn't value that and in the heavily patriarchal sort of like capitalist society that kind of

puts power and profit over anything else. And this is a system. Like, I don't, I don't want to say, point this down to like, I don't want to, you know, point fingers at people because it is a system that we have fallen into. It devalues that. And so like shows like this, which is all it's saying is stop, go back to the community for a little bit, you know, absolutely sit with, with yours and your own and make time for that and make time to care about

and to love and you know and don't look for differences just look just yeah love and like my biggest takeaway from the show was having watched it and like it ends in season one it ends with a lot of like bad things have just happened we have so many unanswered questions but that season still led left me so hopeful of what could be achieved by these people who have

found themselves found their agency and found purpose to help others and like I don't know many shows that make me feel like that much anymore and this one did and it feels good every time yeah I mean you have a show that ends with somebody like

bringing back to life in the underworld, but still, um, given in a sense, like re renewing, uh, the soul of somebody, even in the underworld. And you, you, we don't get that, uh,

that much. And she had faith that her son could do it too. Like that was the best part. She's like, she has like such a sense of like things are going to go really poorly for me. But I, even though I haven't seen my son in so many years and like they might not, he might not understand why I did what I did. Maybe he hates me. I don't know. But I have faith. I have faith in my child. That's awesome. Yeah. All right. Well,

Are there any other final thoughts? That feels like a good note to end on, but, like, I don't want to, like, leave anyone out. I agree. Moms are great. I'm going to call my mom after this. She'll be so annoyed. Like, I'm busy, and I'll be like, I love you, and she'll be like,

It's important to say that. I mean, because we go about our daily lives and we just forget. We take it for granted. I know. But it's not like we should take that moment and say that. Usually. Most moms. Some caveats. Yeah, yeah. Moms suck. I mean, there are some. I do love my mother when I say, I love you. And she goes, what do you want? I'm like, Nancy, I just want you to know I love you.

There is a higher purpose here, mother. Accept it. You know what? Never mind. Hang up. Okay.

Well, if there's nothing else, I do want to say, Anastasia, thank you so much for joining us today to discuss chaos. Thank you. It was my first time to say it before. I really enjoyed it. Thanks for the great discussion. Always. Always. And I'm sure Liv's already reached out to you and is very excited for your other research. So I'm sure her listeners will be hearing more from you. You'll get an email from me and we can figure out a time.

Yeah. Well, just I'll shoot you an email maybe later today, tomorrow. You know what? I'm going to write it down because otherwise I will forget. And while you write it down, Michaela, if people would like to learn more about you and your work, Anastasia, is there someplace they can go or is there any projects you want to plug? Oh,

Well, there is my personal website. It's like my name, AnastasiaPanazopoulou.com, and I update it as often as I can. So a lot of my research and my public humanities and digital humanities projects are there. And yeah, my contact info there, so I'm more than happy to always talk about anything and everything that relates to the ancient and the moral. Awesome. If you're a lineman in charge of keeping the lights on,

Grainger understands that you go to great lengths and sometimes heights to ensure the power is always flowing, which is why you can count on Grainger for professional-grade products and next-day delivery so you have everything you need to get the job done. Call 1-800-GRAINGER, click grainger.com, or just stop by. Grainger, for the ones who get it done.

Hey guys, it's Hannah from Giggly Squad. You know I love beauty and that's why I go to Sephora. It's not just shopping, it's like a glam experience. The beauty advisors actually get beauty unlike those big box stores and they give me all the advice I need. And I love going with the products you can only find at Sephora, like my new favorite Kiali fragrance, my perfect shade of House Labs foundation, and finally restocked my Laneige lip mask. All with the help of real experts. Oh

Oh, and if you haven't tried Day Shampoo, go try it. It's a game changer. Sephora isn't just a store. It's the beauty destination. Go. You'll thank me later.