Lysa TerKeurst: "Forgiving What You Can’t Forget"
22:55 Share

It's time to take the quiz. Five questions, five minutes a day, five days a week. Take the quiz every weekday at thequiz.fox and then listen to the quiz podcast to find out how you did. Play, share, and of course, listen to the quiz at thequiz.fox. It's live in the Breen with host of Fox News at Night, Shannon Breen.

All right. This week on Live in the Bream, we have someone who you've heard from before. She is an amazing author, by the way, just again, hitting the New York Times number one spot. She is an author, a teacher, the president of Proverbs 31 Ministries. She has shared so much of her life and been so vulnerable that you probably feel like you know her, like all of us do who read her books. Lisa Turkers, thanks for being with us this week.

Thanks so much, Shannon. It's always so fun to be with you. We have a special personal connection because you know my dad and that's always so fun. So every time I see you on TV, I'm like, oh, there's my friend. I know. And I love him because you know that he had a moment in my life that was so devastating for me, the sudden death of my father. Your dad played an instrumental role in

in helping my family through those days and months and weeks after that. And so he will always have the, the tightest place in my heart. So yes, I think we're, we're sort of like family and we are, and that we're sisters, um, in the Lord. So that to me is the greatest bond too. Um, the new book is forgiving what you can't forget, discover how to move on, make peace with painful memories and create a life that's beautiful. Again, congratulations on the success of this book. Um,

It is so valuable for helping people who have just been devastated as you have. You were kind enough and brave enough to be very vulnerable and sharing your own personal journey. And this is now a follow-up to that pain and how you continue to move through it and work through it and find healing. We all will have to face forgiveness at some point. So tell me a little bit about your journey.

Well, thanks so much for asking. So the last time I was with you, I told a lot more of my story about finding out that my husband over two decades was being unfaithful and had gotten caught in some addictions. And it was just absolutely devastating. And honestly, Shannon, I feel like it was probably devastating.

I was shocked at what I found out, but I also felt as if I had some sort of protective bubble around me because when you do the checklist things of making sure that you insulate and protect your marriage, you just expect that it's going to equal a certain outcome.

And we had done all the things and then I, you know, made the shocking discovery. And so the pain was devastating and the journey was long. It was not a quick reconciliation and like everybody's saying kumbaya. And, you know, I'm very quick to tell people we're still very much on the journey. I mean, I still sometimes look at my husband and say, are we really going to make it through this? Because, you

The cycles of addiction are brutal and, you know, the hardship and heartbreak that we've walked through is hard. But I knew no matter what, I wanted to walk a redemption story. And what I mean by that is redemption with God. We can't control the direction that our relationships go because we have no control over the decisions another person makes. But we can all

have a redemption story with God. And I'm very committed to that. Now, here's where the problem is. I found out I was very resistant to the notion of forgiveness. And so you would think someone who writes a forgiveness book has somehow decided that they're an expert on forgiveness. I'm the exact opposite of that.

I feel like I was struggling with feeling like that forgiveness was an unfair gift I had to give to people who hurt me and devastated me the most. And even though I may eke out a sentence or two, like, okay, just to be obedient to God, I'll forgive. I really didn't understand all the...

further heartbreak that was being caused inside of me because holding on to grudges, holding on to bitterness, bitterness that was kind of sneaky in the ways that it hid inside my heart. And it was slowly turning me into someone I didn't want to be.

And there's so many things I find in the Christian life that we may have a head knowledge of. And we say like, yes, I will always be someone who knows how to forgive or move on. Or I know this principle of the Christian life or the biblical or whatever, until we are in that moment and it's looking us in the face and it becomes a reality. Sometimes it's something much different, especially when it's personal and it's painful. And for you, that was the concept of forgiveness. Yeah.

That's right. And, you know, I think it was funny the first time I sat down with my team and said, okay, I'm going to tackle this topic of forgiveness. They were like, yeah, that makes sense. That seems like a logical message to do. And then the second time that we sat down to work on the message, we

I brought a list to the table of all the reasons why I 100% should not be the one to write this book because I made a list of all these people that I was struggling to forgive and the reasons why. And the reasons were, um,

so varied according to how I was hurt. You know, I was struggling to forgive when people never acknowledged that they even hurt me. That's hard. I was struggling to forgive when people said they didn't, they weren't sorry. I was struggling to forgive people who were still in my life currently and making decisions that were hurting me.

I was struggling to forgive because I didn't have this epic moment where someone declared that person wrong and me right. You know, there was just so many reasons why I just thought forgiveness cannot possibly apply to all offenses.

And so we spent a thousand hours studying the Bible on the topic of forgiveness. And honestly, the first 200 of those, I was looking for the loophole. Surely, surely God does not. A little asterisk. Not in this situation. Does not apply here.

Yeah. And honestly, what I thought I would find is when people hurt you and the outcome creates unchangeable devastation in your life, the unchangeable feels so unforgivable. And so that's really what I thought I would discover. And yet I,

After studying the idea of forgiveness and the command of forgiveness over a thousand hours, I discovered there's no exceptions. It is something that God intends for us to apply to offenses that range from an inconvenience or a hurtful statement all the way to forgiveness.

brutality unleashed in somebody's life that they can't ever go back and be what they used to be. And it's mind blowing until I realized forgiveness isn't an unfair gift I give to that person that hurt me. Forgiveness is actually this beautiful gift that God gives to the hurting human heart.

And it's the only way to sever the source of suffering when we've been deeply wounded. And we have often heard, it's sort of a cliche, it feels sort of trite when you're suffering that when you don't forgive, you're not hurting the other person, you're only hurting yourself. But there's a lot of truth in that. And the fact that

You do end up getting a gift when you're released from a lot of things, but there, you mentioned this, there's so many different paths you can be on with somebody who is desperately begging for your forgiveness or somebody who doesn't even acknowledge that they've hurt you. So if it's a journey of your own in any of those circumstances, how do you walk that path when the other person is still in your life? Maybe it's a family member. I mean, it's not somebody you're going to be completely away from, but

but they don't acknowledge that they've hurt you or they don't think they even need forgiveness? That's such a good question because honestly, I was struggling so much with having all this pain inside of me.

And I couldn't understand how I could possibly forgive because I felt like that was me saying what happened to me doesn't matter or that what happened to me was no big deal. And it did matter. And it was a huge deal in my life. So my counselor had me walk through this exercise where he gave me the stack of three by five cards and told me, Lisa, write out all the ways you've been hurt in this situation and

And I wrote out probably 35, 40 cards. I mean, it was a lot of hurt. And he told me once I wrote out a card to lay it on the floor in the counseling office. And so I stood back after I finished, there was like 40 cards laying on the ground. And I looked over at my counselor and he was not the one that hurt me, but he was the one to dare to bear witness to my pain. And he looked at me and he said, I believe you.

I believe that this happened to you. And I'm so sorry for all the pain that this has caused you. This was wrong. This should not have been done to you. And Shannon, it was so powerful. I realized it doesn't have to be the person who hurt you. We just need another human in this world to acknowledge how we've been hurt. And we don't even need them to say anything profound except I believe you. And I'm so sorry for how you were hurt.

And when we dare to bear witness to each other's pain that way, we give each other permission to start to believe that the healing is possible because it's so empowering to know that there is somebody. And I want to do that for somebody who's listening today. I want to say if no one else in this world has ever told you that,

that they believe you, that your pain is real and it shouldn't have happened to you, I'll say it. I'll bear witness to your pain. And I'll say, I'm so sorry for what happened. They shouldn't have said what they said or did what they did. But friend, take it from a fellow human who has experienced tremendous hurt. You deserve to stop suffering because of what another person has done to you.

And the only way to sever that source of suffering is through the powerful gift that you receive from God of forgiveness.

And I think it must be like grief in many ways and that it's so personal. There's not one journey. Everybody's going to have a different timeline, a different way, different steps that they get through it. And if it is like grief, that there are times you'll think you're doing great. You've made a lot of progress and something overwhelms and slams you or a reminder, a trigger.

of the incredible pain that you have been through that maybe is not fully healed yet. I mean, everything takes a great deal of time. So knowing that forgiveness and the journey may be different for everyone, are there some basic principles or guidelines on walking that path?

Absolutely. So first of all, I just want to acknowledge triggers are normal. When you've gone through something that has wounded you deeply, whether it's grief, loss, betrayal, hurt, wounding, rejection, all of those things, you know, it's a normal thing.

Those triggers are very normal because triggers are just an indication of some unhealed pain that's now surfacing that's reminding you of the impact this had on you. With every offense, there's a fact of how you were hurt. And then there's also an impact of what this cost you emotionally. And sometimes I think when people talk about forgiveness, they say you need to forgive for the facts of what happened. That's part one.

But then they don't give you space to walk through the emotional healing process of forgiving for the impact, which is part two. And forgiveness is always both of those. It's two parts. It is a decision and it's a process. And so those triggers are normal. And anyone who's experienced trauma knows exactly what a trigger is. And triggers are very inconvenient. It's not like I can say, okay, Tuesday night at 7.30 p.m., I'll be sitting in my bathtub taking communion, right?

And listening to praise music. So hit me with the trigger then, right? It happens in the middle of the grocery store. So unexpected. And you're reminded of pain and it takes you back to the crime scene or the moment of impact when that situation happened. And the next thing you know, you're laid across the bananas in the fruit aisle. And the fruit dude is saying, can I help you? And you're like, dear God, I wish you could help me, you know? Mm-hmm.

And you're crying and you leave your groceries and you go sit in your car and you think, what's wrong with me? And it can be so dysregulating and it can make you question your own sanity. But here's what we have to understand about trigger is that when we get triggered, we're just being made aware there's more pain to deal with. And it's another opportunity for forgiveness. Even if you've forgiven that person for the fact of how they've hurt you,

Now you need to walk through the process of forgiving them for the impact that this had on you. And so I'll literally stop in the middle of it and I will say, okay, it's time for another marked moment of forgiveness. And in the book, Forgiving What You Can't Forget, I walk people through the process of how to do that. And it's important because

I'll also say on a practical level, when you get triggered, what's really happening inside your brain is that part of your brain called the amygdala is getting triggered.

is getting triggered and that's where your emotional trauma, your deep feelings are stored. And so science shows us that it takes 20 minutes for that part of your brain to calm down. So in those 20 minutes, don't make a phone call. Don't get on social media. Don't make some big declaration about your life. Recognize the logical part of my brain is not in, is not driving the bus right now. And so it's good. Do some deep breathing, um,

go outside, drink four ounces of water. Science shows that just four ounces of water will reduce our anxiety level. Give yourself 20 minutes. Do what you need to do to be able to then let your logical thinking come back. And then when your logical thinking comes back, then it's time to decide, okay, now what is the best response to this trigger? So there's some practical things that I also think are important for people to remember. We'll have more Live in the Bream in a moment.

Thank you.

We're talking to Lisa Turkhurst, her latest book, Forgiving What You Can't Forget, New York Times bestseller, chock full of all kinds of information. We have all been hurt by a circumstance, a person, something beyond our control, and we all need to work through that and find healing. And Lisa's been, as we said, very open and vulnerable with her own life, really is a gift to other people to help us all find our way through this as well. I wanted to ask you about the idea of boundaries because, as I said, sometimes the person or the thing that's hurt you

is going to continue to be a part of your life. How do you make peace with what you can, find forgiveness in whatever way you can, and establish some kind of boundaries to protect yourself from further hurt? Or should you even be thinking that way? Absolutely. Boundaries are not to shove the other person away. Boundaries are so that we can help hold ourselves together and

And what a boundary really is, is creating enough emotional distance with that person and sometimes even physical distance with that person that if they refuse to change or they refuse to cooperate with what you feel like is healthy and life-giving and that you're able to participate in, then it is okay. You are empowered to say what is and is not acceptable.

for the sake of your health. And boundaries are not a sign of unforgiveness. As a matter of fact, I think boundaries are what makes it possible for someone to forgive 70 times seven. You know, sometimes people read that in the Bible and they're like, wait, what?

Is that a recipe for abuse when Jesus says we're to forgive 70 times seven? No, I think Jesus is saying, don't allow that person so much access to you that if they keep hurting you and they hurt you 70 times seven, that you'll be destroyed in the process. You've got to have some boundaries so that if that person refuses to change, they're

You can create distance between you and them and you're not forcing them to change. You're not manipulating them to change, but you are empowered to say, this is acceptable. This is not acceptable.

And if we make requests of other people to respect our parameters of what we need and we don't have boundaries in place, then boundaries become mere suggestions. So we've got to make sure, like, if you continue to do this, this is what will happen. And that is okay. That is not unforgiving. It's actually smart.

What part of the journey is rebuilding trust? We've walked through this with couples in our lives that have dealt with infidelity in the situation that you've shared publicly about. And it seemed like there were a lot of choices along the way, not feelings, but choices that for X, Y, Z reasons, we're going to fight for this marriage. We're going to work through it.

And the idea of rebuilding trust and being able to be away from each other for hours or days at a time and not immediately go into that emotional spin that something wrong is happening and to be constantly worried. I mean, what about that part of the equation?

Well, forgiveness doesn't automatically rebuild relationships that have been broken and it doesn't rebuild trust. So just, you know, when you forgive somebody, that's why the title of my book, Forgiving What You Can't Forget is so important because the Bible does not say forgive and forget. I know people say that statement, but the Bible doesn't actually say that. And so when you can't forget, of course,

In a betrayal situation, trust is going to be a long process to rebuild. My counselor says trust is built time plus believable behavior.

And so the only way I've ever seen trust be able to be rebuilt is over a long period of time that the person that betrayed you hurt you or broke the trust in some way. They have to demonstrate believable behavior. And, you know, like the old political statement, trust, but verify, you know, it's like,

You can give pieces of your trust back, but it's okay for you to verify. It's okay for you to verify that they are where they're supposed to be. And it's okay if you need to look at their phone. And here's where you know you're really making progress rebuilding trust. When the person who betrayed you, when they become humble and gentle in the process, you

and you say, can I look at your phone? I'm feeling triggered right now and I'm nervous. Then when they say, absolutely.

And of course you need to look at my phone. I have nothing to hide and I want you to verify that so that we can rebuild trust. If on the other hand, if they say, what, we're still dealing with this? Like, are you kidding me? If that's their reaction, it's going to be so hard, maybe even impossible to rebuild trust because it triggers you all over again, right?

And part of the betrayal journey is that there was a season where there was a lot of lying. And so what happens is your discernment was firing, but discernment doesn't give you details. So then you start investigating the best you can. And it's so hard when you catch someone in a lie and it's devastatingly difficult to rebuild that trust.

So you can't expect your partner to do the journey. Perfect. But if they mess up again, it's so much better for them to come to you and say, I'm so sorry. You know what? I, uh,

went to that bar I wasn't supposed to go to, or I drove by that house that I wasn't supposed to drive by. I want to tell you nothing happened, but I also want to come clean. And I want this to be an opportunity to build our trust that I'm going to come and I'm going to tell you when I mess up and we're going to use it as an opportunity to have some processing together. Mm-hmm.

I find that with myself. I mean, I know the things that I struggle with and I feel like in the darkness, the enemy really works in that. And if I can go to my husband or someone else with accountability to say,

hey, I'm feeling pulled towards this. I'm feeling a real struggle here. Instead of trying to tamp it down or act like it's not there, it's better for me to come to you and say, like, I need your help. I need you to pray with me. I need you to just know that this has popped up again. And, you know, I always feel like putting sunlight on it takes the shame out of it. It takes the enemy's lies out of it and gives you a chance to, like you said, use that as actually a rebuilding opportunity for

The book, again, Forgiving What You Can't Forget by Lisa Turkhurst is full of so much helpful, practical information. If you're struggling through this, I feel like we're all going to do this at some point. It's just such a gift that you've been willing to share your story and your life through so many different things. I've been blessed by every single one of your books. And I think that this is going to be such a beautiful help and a gift to people.

as they try to repair relationships, come back from circumstances that this year we've all been dealt several blows that we weren't expecting in different ways. And I just think it's such a beautiful thing that you've put to paper. So Lisa, thank you for doing it. And thank you for being with us. Absolutely. It's always a joy to be with you, Shannon. Look forward to your next book. I'm always standing by. Lisa Turkhurst on this week's Live in the Brain.

Cudlow on Fox Business is now on the go for podcast fans. Get key interviews with the biggest business newsmakers of the day. The Cudlow podcast will be available on the go after the show every weekday at foxbusinesspodcasts.com or wherever you download your favorite podcasts.