How The Mob Treats Cops In Prison & On The Street | Chicky Cechetelli & Jeff Asher
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He had a restaurant called Karamea in Springfield. I used to go there on certain nights of the week and then he had the Irish crew go there certain nights of the week.

And we were close. You know, I used to go to his house and eat dinner. Jeff and his partner, any cop partner would go to Karamea and they would go in the back door, up the back steps. And Josie was a sweetheart, you know, an older lady, a sweetheart of a lady. She was the cook and they would show up and he would give them food to go. And he would put wine in little plastic cups so they could have it in their patrol car. Bruno was friendly with everybody. He was friends with the

the criminals, and he was friends with the cops and the district attorneys, which at the end really kind of, you know, got him in a lot of trouble. But he was friends with Matty Ryan, who was a DA in Springfield. They loved Bruno. Bruno was smart. On today's episode, we have chicky chickatally and Jeff Asher back on the show to answer some of your questions and check in to see their thoughts after their interviews both went viral on the Locked In with the NBIC podcast.

Exciting news, everyone. I will be at the New York Comedy Club in East Village on November 5th alongside comedian and podcaster Johnny Mitchell for his live show. Grab tickets at ianbick.com and I'm so excited to see you there for my first live show.

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Mr. Chickie, Jeff Asher, welcome to Locked In for part two. This is so exciting. First off, happy birthday to Chickie. Thank you, brother. Thank you, Ian. Happy birthday, Chick. I appreciate it. Thank you, Jeff. Is this like one of the first things on YouTube? A former mobster and a former cop sitting across from another felon right here? This is like...

Back in the day, this would have been frowned upon. Has this been done before on YouTube? We might do some numbers on this. Nah, we grew up together. I may have broken some rules and regs with the police department. Yeah, we broke a lot of rules. A lot of rules. So I brought you guys back today because, you know, there's some follow-up questions at our audience. You know, you two were our...

top performing episodes ever. Hundreds of thousands of views and downloads on YouTube. It was so funny because Chicky was in the top spot aside from JD Delay. And then we did your episode, Asher, and Chicky stops calling me. He would call me every day. I got disappointed. Every day he called me talking about, yo, the numbers, it's great. And then as soon as you came in and blew it out, haven't heard from him since. He's doing all these shows. He's a big shot. But I got to tell you,

People in your comments, they got me good. I ate the mob. You served Little Waters. They said it was two liter bottles. They got me good, but it's all good, bro. It's all good. I picked out some of the best comments. Yeah. Listen to me. You go on the comments. I laughed at every one of them. They're funny. They thought I was the guy on some cartoon show. They thought I was Peter Griffin.

Listen, it's all about laughs. Listen, I get it. Absolutely. I love myself. I'm a little heavy. I appreciate who I am. So it is what it is. Listen, I laugh with them. I salute. Let them have fun. You know, you guys both have...

Very crazy high public stories. You know, Jeff's in the news, all those articles, Chickie was in the news, but you guys both send very positive messages. And I don't think our audience realized that you guys actually know each other from back in the day. Jeff, let's start with you. You knew Chickie while you were a police officer? Yeah, I mean, Springfield's not a huge city. I mean, it's big. There's a quarter of a million people, but...

It's one of those, it feels smaller. Everybody seems to know each other, whether you're a cop or a gangster, firefighter, Irish, Italian, everybody knew each other in that town. So I didn't know Chicky Great growing up, but he's a couple years older than me, but I knew him from around the way. You'd hear stories and that type of stuff. And my father worked downtown in the bars.

So I knew Chickie's down there all the time. We went to the same clubs, Pizazz and Pogo's and some of the same nightclubs. He was always at the clubs. He loved the clubhouse music. What kind of stories would you hear of Chickie? You know, just I think the first time I really talked a lot about Chickie's when I'm dating a girl in Springfield. And I end up running into him at somewhere and we start talking and he says, hey, yeah.

Did you date Jen Downs? I said, yeah, yeah. He says, well, I dated her before you. I said, oh, okay. Okay. He's making fun of me.

But, you know, I knew who he was, but he was also in the military, too. Chickie was in the Navy, and I was in the Marine Corps, and he's a veteran. So, you know, run into him a few times, talked to him about that. But it wasn't close, but I knew who he was. So you could confirm for the audience that Chickie was actually mob-associated because some people were a little skeptical on his involvement. Chickie hung out with all those guys. Believe me. Now, Chickie...

When was the first time you met Jeff and how did you guys I knew Jeff I knew Jeff Like I said like he knew me through our whole adult life. I heard stories about him I heard he was a great cop. He was solid as they come and He would defend his partner if there was a problem with the partners. He would jump in he would do what had to do That's what I always heard about him. So from afar. I'm not gonna lie to you. I

Back then, I'm not going to lie to you, I didn't respect cops. I didn't respect FBI agents. I didn't respect state troopers. But I always heard about Jeff. Listen, one thing about Jeff, he was a solid cop. Like, in other words, if a cop was in trouble, he had him. So secretly, in the back of my mind, I had a respect for him. I'm like, yeah, he's like one of us, but he's defending his own, which I did respect that.

And it was funny because it came up, we dated the same girl, you know. And my first love who broke my heart, I'm not going to lie, it was funny. A couple, three years later after I broke up, you know, I went in the Navy and

and she couldn't, you know, be with somebody that— I was stationed at Pearl Harbor, Honolulu, so there was a ton of girls in Honolulu. And she's like, I can't do this. I know you're dating girls. And back then, you know, unfortunately, I was a thinner guy. I was, you know, I was pretty good-looking. Laughing now. But I was pretty good-looking. I'm a little heavy now, but I was good-looking. And then there was a guy, you know, not really a friend, but kind of a—

a semi-friend of mine that we were at a party and when I came home from the Navy, she had a party for me to come back.

And she was cooking in her kitchen and I just happened to walk in the kitchen and I seen this young kid talking to her. And then later on that night, I said to her, I said, if there's anybody going to of all my friends, if there's anybody going to try to pick you up when I'm gone, it's going to be him. And she's like, you're crazy. Meanwhile, fast forward six months later, 100 percent what I said was true. I called home.

And my sister says to me, you know, your girl Jen hangs out here all the time. I go, yeah, she's a sweetheart of a girl. She goes, yeah, but she's dating somebody else. So, of course, I'm heartbroken, right? So I said, okay, it is what it is. You know, I'm done with her. 17, 18, we're young kids. So, you know, it was funny. And then several years later, like three years later, she was dating Jeff. Jeff.

And I'm like, God bless him, whatever, whatever. And he'll tell you she had mentioned me to him because I used to wear the Sergio Ticini sweatsuits. And she was a nice girl. She just, listen, I was a young guy. She was a young girl. It don't work out when you go in the military like he knows. Same thing happened to him when he went to Marines. I got a dear John letter. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I was dating this girl. I was going to community college and I was dating this girl. And we got called up to go to Desert Storm.

So you've got to go like six months down the Carolinas and train. You know, they're talking about the gas exposure and all the stuff you're going to be exposed to, the firing range. And while I'm there, they give us time off before Christmas. You're not supposed to fly home. Of course, everybody flew home. We all flew up to Hartford and went home.

And I catch her with another guy. Oh, man. So I leave the house. Obviously, I'm upset. I get back on the plane and fly down. The next day, they do mail call. And I got the Dear John letter. So she had already written the letter. I went home to surprise her. And I ended up being the one surprised. Wow. You know? Yeah.

Isn't it crazy how life brings you down a strange path? I mean, do you guys ever thought 10, 15 years ago you'd be sitting here right now? 100%. The whole concept of sharing stories on YouTube and stuff. I love it. Now, you guys both have very powerful stories about your experiences in law enforcement, in the mob, and how you guys both

you know, ended in prison. And if anyone wants to hear your guys' backstories, they could check out the episodes that we previously recorded where we get in depth about it. Chicky, let's start with you. What do you think is the biggest takeaway from your story? And what is the positive impact it gives to, I would say, in this situation, law enforcement? What can law enforcement take away from watching your story? 100% change is possible.

You don't have to be a cooperator to change. You don't have to face 30 years in prison to change. From my experience only, I never... You could check all the podcasts I ever did. I never portrayed myself as a tough guy. I never was. I've been a gentleman from day one. But, um...

My friends will tell you I've got many calls. Chicky, come with us. I never said I'm a bookmaker. I don't do that. And I said this in many interviews. And it is what it is. It's like I've been there for them their whole life. You know, they know that they'll say it. And the bottom line is change is possible without being a cooperator for the government.

without, you know, being this big shot guy who comes on and says, I killed six people. Same guy. I killed eight people. I killed 14. Come on, bro. Did you kill three? Did you kill four or 14? You know what you killed.

So Sammy the Bull, I'm going to bring him up. I'm sorry. He's got a huge podcast. Michael Francis, they got a huge podcast. Dominic Sacali. I can go on and on and on. I want to say now on this podcast, Joey Molino. OK, he's doing a podcast out of Philadelphia in Florida. The guy's a legitimate real guy.

Never, you know, never ratted ever. Did jail time. A solid guy. And he's coming out exposing these rats and they don't like it. They want to fight back. They want to say, oh, this guy's no good. This that. The guy's a legend in Philadelphia is a legend. And we talk on social media.

The guy's a gentleman. And it's just that my point today and I'm coming on and I'm not going to lie to you. I read a lot of the comments when we did our show and people just don't want to realize, OK, you want to abuse me a little heavy. Abuse me. I got no problem with that.

But the bottom line is if you watch any of my interviews, it's never about this guy did this, that guy did that. I would never any active guys. I don't talk about anything. I'm not comfortable. Would I say allegedly you'll see that? And it is what it is. It just said there's real guys out there now. It's a new way, a new day. There's real guys out there and that are exposing these rats. And that's what they are. They're rats.

And so Joey, Joey Skinny, Joey Molino, it's called the Skinny on YouTube. Anybody reach out, you know, subscribe. And he's just exposing these rats that they're all liars.

They all bullshit to get their own best deal. And that's... I joined him in his effort to expose these rats. And that's how it is. Now, there are some YouTubers. I'm not going to name them to give them the clout in this. But there are some YouTubers that make hip pieces on you, Chicky. 100%. But if you notice, all the YouTubers that talk shit about me, they got 5,000 subscribers or under. Okay? And...

You're 100 percent right. And I go on Angel Gotti a lot. Angel Gotti, which is John Gotti, senior's daughter. I go on her show. I support her. She don't like rats. I don't like rats. It is what it is. But when you when you stir up the hornet's nest, they're going to come up and make bullshit. Anything they said about me and prove it.

I'm a rat. Show me paperwork. Show me 302s. Show me 501ks. Show me anything. There's nothing out there. All my paperwork is 100% out there. So I can't hide from nothing. I made sure my lawyer, I said to my lawyer, anything that's out there,

I don't want even a not forget about a sentence. I don't want a letter sealed. Show everything. But you know what it is? You got rats that go against me, which is fine. I get it. I grew up with a kid.

which I don't even want to mention his name, but I grew up with a kid who we did get in a fight for like a year, back and forth, back and forth. And they make up things. They want to make you look bad because they feel bad. Certain people that I grew up with can't live with themselves. At 3 o'clock in the morning when they're sober and they look in the mirror, they can't live with themselves. That's fine.

But don't make up bullshit about me. If you got something to say about me, show paperwork, show 302s, show FBI paperwork. They'll never be out there because I never ratted on nobody. I never will. And it is what it is. My case is my case. It's all public. So it's just a shame the way this excuse me, this YouTube thing is going. It's disgusting. But I respect you. I respect Mark Gagnon.

Even Johnny Mitchell, all these guys, they just want to get a show and deal with the truth. And a lot of these rats, they ain't saying the truth, you know?

I think you just set a new record for how many times you can say rats in a five-minute spiel. I'm sorry. That's how I feel. I should have started counting. No, no. I apologize. That's how I feel. Maybe I should say cooperators and make them feel better. I like your sweatshirt, Jeff. Oh, thank you. Barstool. How annoying. You have a stain on yours. Yeah, 3X. Thanks. Jeff, as someone that was former law enforcement that had a high-profile case, I'm sure there's a lot of current law enforcement officers who

that kind of follow you. And I know you're still friendly with law enforcement. What takeaway did you want from your interview? Well, first, let me say, I got a ton of positive feedback. I was at my 35th reunion Saturday night and everybody came up, love the interview. They all follow you now.

The guys I work with follow you. My buddies on the golf course every morning at 5 a.m. They're mowing while they listen to your podcast. So it's been great. But all the cops that I've talked to back in Springfield that have watched the podcast loved it. They loved hearing a lot of the old stories. I got to set a couple things straight. Some of the comments that I saw, and of course, I didn't go through all of them. There were a ton of them. I never worked for Blackwater. I wore a Blackwater t-shirt.

And a lot of the feedback was, this guy worked for Blackwater. He was waterboarding people. And how are we supposed to believe this guy? He's a nut. I never worked for Blackwater. It was a T-shirt given to me by somebody that was a private contractor. But, you know, I like talking about the job.

Because the job's different now than it was when I was on. Even though I was on camera during that incident and on VHS back in the early 90s, everything's on camera now. Every intersection is filmed. Anywhere you go, you're on camera and you have to act almost like a robot. You also have a camera on your chest. And that was a big comment in a lot of the threads after your podcast was, why didn't he use a taser? And why was his camera not working?

There were no cameras back then, and there were no tasers. So we were down to billy clubs, flashlights, and firearm or mace. That's all we had back then. If I had the camera now during that incident, I think it would have been a lot different. I don't think I would have ended up being incarcerated. I think things would have been different. But, you know, like I was saying, the cops now, they're walking like a thin razor line.

If I overreact at a call, I could go to jail like Jeff. But if I underreact at a call, I could end up dead or injured. So it was good to come out and tell my story. And hopefully some of the younger cops pick up on what happened with me

And they're able to make changes and do things differently. I appreciate you getting your friends to watch it. Oh, they're all... My son is a huge fan of yours, Michael. Absolutely loves it. Something that's great about the show is that we remain neutral. Yeah. Like in every interview. And that's just like, we're not, you know, anti-cop. Yeah. We're not pro-criminal. Like it doesn't... It's a safe spot for people to come and share their story. Something...

A reoccurring comment, because I went through the comments on your episode, was that people some people got the impression that you felt that you never did anything wrong on the job. How do you feel about that comment? You know, what's funny is I did. Obviously, as a cop, I've made mistakes. I'm not going to say that I didn't make any mistakes. And you're talking about 18 years. There were mistakes made.

But the high profile cases you read a lot about the ones that cemented my name in the newspaper, those were totally by the book. Everything I did, I stand behind what I did. As Chicky said earlier, all I wanted at the end of the night was the guys I was working with to go home. And I'd do anything to make sure they got home.

The cool thing about when I worked as a police officer was when a cop called for help on the radio or pressed his orange button, everyone in the city of Springfield, every cop was at that call. It's different these days. I'm not saying guys aren't backing people up. They certainly are. But back then it was different. When you called, people came and things got crazy.

You know, because you've got 40, 50, 60, 70 cops coming to your aid. So you can imagine how crazy things got. Absolutely. You know, back then. Did any of those comments help you maybe see your story in a different light? So maybe the next time you tell it, it's a little bit different. Yeah, I think so. I think some of them did. And again, I've made mistakes. I don't want anyone to think I was a choir boy as a cop. That's not what I was doing. But in the things, in those highlighted cases...

And I'm not going to go over. We went over them on the earlier podcast. But everything, if I had to do it over again, would all be done exactly the same. Yeah. I mean, every single one of those people that made a comment, they don't have a perfect life. Everyone's made mistakes. You can't argue with the world, which is why I didn't go back on and engage in any conversation. Yeah. And sometimes the comments, I'm sure both of you guys got hungover.

hundreds of thousands of comments on both the clips and the long form. Did that affect you guys mentally at all, Chicky? Did it affect you? Like when people can be mean and they start to bully and they do the weight comments and stuff, how does that make you feel? For me personally, I got to be honest with you, I laughed at a lot of comments. Listen, if I got one eye and they abused me about having one eye, how can I argue that? Okay, you're heavy, this, that. I get it. I get it. Abuse me for that.

But please don't tell me I'm not wasn't in a life. Don't tell me I wasn't around Bruno. Please don't tell me I wasn't around Anthony or a lot of these are facts. You can Google me. You can. These are facts. So, you know, did I get upset? No, I didn't. I got to accept what it is. I'm the first one who and you can listen to any interview I do, Ian, that

I'll abuse myself. You know, I'm a little heavy. I laugh a little bit like, you know, and I said it before. But with the comments with you, I literally laughed. I put smiley faces on a lot of the comments. But I'm not worried about these comments because the same people comment about me, my weight, my

They're in their mother's basement, you know, in my opinion, maybe I'm wrong, but they're in their mother's basement waiting to get called up for chicken noodle soup and a fried cheese sandwich. And they're abusing me. You know, I'm just saying I'm not a big shot. I'm not a tough guy. I'm not a gangster. I'm just who I am. I'm telling my personal story. But the thing is, you know.

Live a mile in my shoe before you abuse me. And that's all I'm saying. And I'm not a tough guy. I'm a gentleman. But live a mile in my shoe before you abuse me. You want to abuse me a mile in my weight? I get it. Okay, I'm heavy. Okay, that's great. But if that's all you got...

Bring your best shot. That doesn't bother me. Now, Chicky, in our last episode, you covered in death that you ran kind of like with the Italians in prison. You fit in with them. 100%. How would they have treated Jeff, a former cop, if they saw him in federal prison? I got to be honest. I like Jeff. I grew up with Jeff. We were around the same people.

But a cop, like if he said, I'm a cop, they would have shunned him. Not because of him as a man. And if I knew him, I would have said, no, this guy is different. Because I'm not going to bring up the guy's name. He's a good friend of mine.

But I was in the USP Canaan. And about eight months after I was there, a cop, an ex-cop from Springfield came in to Canaan. OK, he had to serve like a year and a half. I won't even mention his name. But him and his brother were good guys. They were around us. He was a cop. And, you know...

And I won't say his name, but I'm the one that went on record in the jail and said, listen, this kid's coming in the next 30 days. And he's a good kid. I know he's got a title. If you look him up, it's going to say he's a cop.

But he's a good dude. Listen, he he helped us. He's got his own problems, but he's a good dude. And I left. He came in about actually, to be honest with you, I left on. I don't remember what day it was, but he only came in like a day or two after me. And they were waiting for him and they they they embraced him with open arms because of what I said. And if they looked him up, he was an ex-cop.

But the kid was a gentleman, his brother was a gentleman, his brother-in-law was a gentleman. We were all friends. So I said, "I know it's going to say a cop, but the kid's a gentleman. He stands up as they come." And they embraced him like a brother.

And that's the truth. I don't want to mention his name because he's still out there. He's a good kid. But he was a Springfield cop that went to my prison. And, you know, it is what it is. I set him up and everything was great. I'm sure it depends on the charges, though, too. Yeah, yeah. No, no, no. Yeah, no. He had like, you know, fraud or whatever he had. He wasn't a cop no more. They fired him.

But I said, listen, this kid's a good kid. His brother's a good kid. His brother-in-law is my good friend. And it is what it is. But I'm just saying the kid's a good kid. I don't want to mention his name. But, you know, he was a cop, but he's seen things maybe a cop shouldn't have seen. And he didn't say nothing. And they sent him to jail for that, which to me in my heart is honorable. That's honorable. What about on the street? How would you how would the mob treat police officers?

Well, that's a great thing you bring it up. Bruno was my guy. Oh, sorry. Big Al Bruno was my guy. Sorry. My guy. He was a good guy. And to make a long story short, you know, Jeff knew Bruno. Jeff knew Bruno. And he had a restaurant called Caramea in Springfield. And I used to go there on certain nights of the week. And then he had the Irish crew go there certain nights of the week.

And we were close. You know, I used to go to his house and eat dinner. But Jeff, when he was on patrol and when I get done, Jeff will explain. But Jeff and his partner, any cop partner would go to Karamia and they would go in the back door, up the back steps. And Josie was a sweetheart, you know, an older lady, a sweetheart of a lady. She was the cook.

And Bruno was there and they would show up and he would give them food to go and he would put wine in little plastic cups so they could have it in their patrol car. And Jeff can explain that more. But Bruno was Bruno was friendly with everybody. He was friends with the criminals and he was friends with the cops and the district attorneys, right?

which at the end really kind of got him in a lot of trouble. But he was friends with Matty Ryan, who was a DA in Springfield, huge DA. And they love Bruno. It's political, you know, in a way. Listen to me. He used to play racquetball with him, and I would be in the YMCA and watch him and the district attorney, Matty Ryan, play racquetball. And I'd say to myself, what's going on? This is crazy. But Bruno was smart.

For like 15 years, Maddie Ryan had cases against us, not so much me, but my friends and other people where they would get in trouble for salt and batteries, baseball bats, dangerous weapons. They would beat the case. It would get dropped. So it just made sense to me. This is the right thing to do.

Bruno's doing it the right way. He makes friends with district attorneys, with lawyers, with cops, and it helped him in the end. And at the end of the day, it went against him because people used it against him to murder him. And it's too bad because now.

When they say Bruno was a rat and Bruno was a stool pigeon and Bruno talked to FBI agents, it's all bullshit. The guy was a good guy. He didn't do that. This is other people saying that.

to try to diminish what they did to him and did to other people that he put in jail for life. But Jeff can explain more about that with Karamea. Maybe you can go on to that. Now, Jeff, how would police officers treat mobsters or mob associates on the street? I mean, your standard patrolman is not going to deal with mobsters that often.

You know, I grew up, my father was a fireman. You know, a lot of firemen have part-time jobs, you know, electricians or landscapers. My father was a bartender at this Donny's Cafe, which I would guess that Al had a piece of, you know, that...

with this guy Donnie, who was the owner of the bar. - Mastrangelo. - Yeah, Mastrangelo. So when I was young and I'd go in there, you had a real mix. You had mobsters, you had politicians, you had cops, firefighters, lawyers, all in this one bar. So I got to see those guys early on, looking up to the cops and seeing, oh, these guys are in the mafia. These guys are wise guys. But over the years,

I always knew who Al was. If I didn't see him, I'd read the articles. But he knew my father from bartending at Donnie's. So we'd go to Cara Mia's and he would feed us great dinners and that he'd fill up solo cups with red wine and

I suppose it doesn't matter now. My partner and I, you know, we'd get on the riverfront with a half a cup of wine and I'd smoke my cigar in the cruiser and my partner would smoke a cigarette and we'd listen to the Red Sox. You know, that's a long time ago, but that's the extent to seeing those guys besides maybe seeing them sit out in front of La Florentina, having their coffees, you know,

There was really no exchanges between us. They were always very respectful to street patrolmen. They were always nice to us. I never got the sense that these guys did want us around when we'd go in for coffee. It was never like that. I didn't think it was contentious at all. Now, when they took care of you, do you feel like that you owed them something? If you were to see them, say, committing a crime, would you have stepped in?

No, because, again, usually with those guys, the feds or the state police unit is doing most of the work with those guys. Our local guys, we have the homicide detectives for homicides in Springfield, which obviously ended up investigating Bruno's murder down in the south end. But usually the feds.

more mindful of, of organized crime in our area. It's not the local PD. I don't think I'd ever be in a position unless I pulled somebody over, but, uh, I work with Al Bruno's son, Victor. Uh, I was a bouncer at a popular bar in Springfield, got along with him very well. Used to see the father all the time in there, but never in a position to do them a favor. Um,

I mean, I suppose the least I could do is take care of a ticket for him if I pulled him over, but that would be it. Interesting. Now, I don't usually bring a lot of guests on for a part two. You guys are in a handful of guests. And so I wanted to give our audience a chance. I asked on our YouTube channel earlier some questions that they had directed to you guys. And we went over some of the comments and I picked out some of the top questions that individuals have for you guys. And so the first one is for Chickie.

Would the mob kill a wife or girlfriend of another mobster, or is that off limits? Absolutely off limits from my experience. But there were guys like Waddy Bulger and...

They called him the Grim Reaper, okay? Greg Scarpa in New York. There were guys that did it, but it always ended up the same. They did whatever they wanted because they were informants, okay? And the government, and I'm sorry, this is the truth. You know, people can believe me. They don't have to believe me. Look it up. It's on YouTube. I'm not like I'm giving out secrets.

The government okays these guys. They don't say kill these people, but they just give them a free pass to do what they want. And there was a lot of informants that killed a lot of people and they were forgiven by the government. And like I said, the two biggest victims

is Greg Scarpa, the Grim Reaper out of Brooklyn, and Whitey Bulger. They killed women. They killed people, a lot of people. Greg Scarpa's got like 80 to 100 murders.

And the government forgave him because he was an informer for 35 years. Whitey Bulger, people text me and say, Whitey Bulger wasn't a rat. He was a rat. He was a rat. He put the Angiolo brothers in the north end of Boston away, put a lot of guys away. He could kill women, children, people. The government knew. But when you start killing people like that, you're an animal. You're known as a street tough guy.

You're either an informant or you're going to end up dead. That's the facts. So that's the truth. Roy DeMeo, he wasn't an informant. He was a serious guy, a killer with the Gemini twins. Okay. Where did he end up? He was a killer. He'd kill everybody in two seconds. He ended up in his trunk dead.

The real guys on the street in New York, they're not going to put up with that. They're not going to put up with the heat. They're not going to put up with guys that are killing a ton of people because it brings heat to them. He ended up in his trunk dead. Okay, he wasn't a rat, but Whitey Bulger and Greg Scarpa, 35 years, 40 years, they came out, they were rats.

So that's what I'm saying. DeMeo was a paranoid guy too. Yeah. I read his book. He was so paranoid that a guy knocked on his door. His wife called. So there's a guy outside. There's a van. He thought the guy's there to kill him. He chased the guy six blocks, shot him and killed him, and it was a vacuum sales guy selling vacuums door to door. Wow. Yeah. That's how paranoid he was. Now, Jeff, someone asked the question, what was the worst thing?

mob related crime scene you've been on and if there isn't any if you hadn't had any experience and we can just say worst crime scene you've been on well i i was but i i wasn't a respondent officer there so we didn't get called there that night but um you know i was down there but i i wouldn't call that the you know the worst scene i've ever been on you know there's let me try to think here there's a few i mean anytime you have an an infant involved

uh in anything it's it's tough there was a a woman killed um in the south end of springfield downtown and people started seeing the mail pile up at the door you know we went there with another car and once we got inside you knew right away with the smell and the woman was in a closet

stabbed 25, 27 times and didn't even look real. You know, she'd been stabbed so many times. She'd been there six, seven, eight days, whatever it was. And I heard somebody yell, Hey, come on into the kitchen. I went in the kitchen. There was a six year old kid dead on a mattress and there were handprints on the fridge. So what ended up happening was

The kid kept going to its mom in the closet to see if she'd wake up and then going to the fridge to try to get food because it was starving but wasn't strong enough to open the fridge. That to me was probably the worst crime scene I'd ever seen. When you go on crime scenes like that,

Does that ever leave you? Like even to this day, do you have reflections of that? Actually, it was even tough just to tell that again. And I've told it to select people because it's not a story you're going to run around telling everybody. But, you know, that's the type of stuff where you go home and fire down a shot or stop at a bar quick. No, stuff like that doesn't leave you. My service overseas, you know, my PTSD, but incidents like that,

That with you the rest of your life. And I think it's very powerful that you're sharing it because it gives individuals that, you know, might have looked at law enforcement in one way. It gives law enforcement a different perspective because maybe that one law enforcement officer that was a prick to him one day could have been just leaving a scene like that. You don't know. You don't know what the other person is going through. These guys have seen so much, been through so much.

It really is. It gives you, you know, a second thought and it makes you think about things. Now, Chicky, why did the mob have a no drug policy early on? It might have changed now, but people were curious about why it was so anti-drug. Because because in my opinion, my opinion only, I was taught since young, if if you're into drugs and you're selling drugs, you're

The majority of the people selling drugs are on drugs. They're not just selling them and they're not on drugs. You know what I mean? So they weren't trusted. It was like from what I heard from real guys through my whole life, that's why I never dealt drugs, was like, listen, you're dealing with a different kind of person.

You're dealing with a guy, if he's suffering from an opiate addiction, the feds will say to him, you're suffering. They'll make you suffer in a jail and say, we'll give you Oxycontin or whatever, Percocets or whatever it is.

And they can make you flip. So that's what was the thing. They were weak. People that were on drugs and loyal to drugs and needed drugs to get healthy, it made them weak. So the question you're trying to say is because they knew from an early age drugs weakens people, you know, and drugs.

That's basically what it is. You know what I mean? They just knew from an early age. If you're in a cell, the feds will do anything in their power to make you flip. So they'll maybe make you a week in a cell. And if you're a drug addict, you're defecating yourself and you're sick. And they'll say, we can make this all better. Just tell us what you know. And under that condition, a lot of people would open up.

So that's why, in my opinion, they didn't like that. You know what I'm saying? They knew it was weak. That's what I think. And it's pretty accurate, but it's only what I think. Jeff, now, why is it so hard for the good officers to speak out against the bad officers when doing something wrong against, you know, a civilian? Actually, I'll get into it, but I'll just say that

From Chicky's standpoint, you would think you're being a rat, maybe, if you're going to tell on other cops. But it depends what they're doing, too. I've seen cops drink on duty. I've seen cops use drugs on duty. Not a high percentage. A guy here, a guy there. Most of the people I work with are great cops. But you'd see people using drugs. I think when it started getting into...

Money, you know, people taking money. There was a cop that I worked with years ago, was an older guy. And every time I would see him tow a car or we had an accident, I'd see him take the change out of the cup holders and the ashtrays. And I'm just, you know, after a while, I'm just like, are you freaking kidding me? I pulled the guy aside. I'm like, what are you doing? I'm here with you. You know, if they look this up, I'm assisting you here. What are you taking change for?

But besides talking to them, I'm not going to – I would never run to IIU, but if it ever involved something that I thought was – had gone beyond the limits of stuff like that, you know, I'd have to wrestle with my conscience. Is this worth maybe pulling aside a captain or a lieutenant or a sergeant I know, you know, not going to IIU, but saying to a sergeant, hey –

I got this going on with this guy. Something's got to be done. You know, at least on your level, you need to go to him and talk to him and get him to either knock it off or let him know you're watching him. I don't think I'd ever directly go to IAU, but if it involves something sexual or something I thought was, I've got no problem, you know, pulling somebody aside to say, hey, you deal with it. If you think it needs to get kicked up the chain,

You do it, but I just want to let you know what's going on. Did you have principles? Like you wouldn't let anyone plant evidence on someone or a false arrest or anything like that? I didn't see anybody really... There were stories, but I never saw anybody actually plant evidence when I was on the job. I'm sure it happened here and there. I just never saw it. But, you know, I had one guy, and he was a really good kid, and he was going through a drug problem, and...

It was a lot going on with them, and they kind of stuck them in an area of the city where it was good for them to be. It was quiet. You don't get a lot of calls, and it was a domestic. And when we went there, the woman was beat up. We put the guy in the car. Somebody's talking to the woman, and he goes in the house, and he's not even part of our call. Shows up to, like, assist us, but doesn't call out, and then goes into their house. And then, like, 10 minutes later, he comes out with a pillowcase with, like, DVDs

And I don't even know what else was in it. And I looked at the other guy I'm with and I said, it's his call now. Take the guy out of the cruiser, put him in his car, and we're out of here. Because I didn't want to be connected to it. You know, and the guy's watching him do it.

He's watching them come out. Now, I don't know if he ever complained or anything, but that's the type of stuff that goes on. Not a lot, but you'll see it happen. It happens. Yeah, it happens. I mean, I always say that there's, they are bad officers, but they're also, the majority of them are good. There's, I could tell you, I've never dealt

And all the time I was on the job, never dealt with a cop that stood in the garage or after roll call and said, you know, I'm going to go out tonight. I'm going to pound somebody out. I'm angry tonight. I got in an argument with my wife. I'm going to go kill somebody tonight. I'm just, I'm putting a hurt on somebody. And never saw that. I saw guys that were angry guys that when they felt they were being called out or, you know, would react in a way that was, you know, way over the top.

But I never saw anybody intentionally say tonight's the night I go out and look to kick somebody's ass. Did you see that, um, that the breaking news about the female cop that like got railed by the whole department? Oh yeah. Does that, does that happen?

Not on our job, not in Springfield. I never saw that happen. But yeah, there's a lot of wackiness goes on in these jobs. Are people like hooking up with each other? Are you talking about the girl? I don't mean to interrupt. No, no, no. Are you talking about the girl who had sexual relations with all the cops? And she has a husband at home. There was like six cops and she had a husband at home. Well, I don't know. Listen, I can only tell you, none of it was me. Thank God. But there were cop women and prison guard women.

That loved going with guys that were in the street. Not cops, street guys. Why do you think that is? Because they're like that bad boy thing. Not that I was, but there were some cops, women, and there were some correction officer women that they would come down to the south end where we hung around on the weekend, 30, 40, 50 at a time.

And we know them. Guys were in jail and they're like, oh my God, that's a security guard. That's the guard. Do you think you became more attractive after you got out of prison? I think I did. To the wrong kind of girl, but yeah, I think so. Well, you're married, right, Jeff? Almost 30 years. She stuck with me through everything that happened to me. My wife is still there for me. Do you guys get crazy messages after people have seen you go on platforms and tell your story?

Well, he's got a good wife. He's got a great wife. No, but people could still message you. No, no, no. I'm just saying I had a wife. You know, she was a beautiful girl. And when the getting was good, she loved it. But then when I went to jail and things were bad. They slapped those cuffs on you. See you later. But that's okay. But, you know, I just got to mention her through the grace of God. I met a nice girl now. And she's a sweetheart. She treats me like a king. But I'm done with that bullshit now. I'm doing, like I said, you know, not trying to.

Pump it up, but I'm doing the movie now. It's coming out before Christmas. So I'm blessed. But, you know, we went through, I went through a lot. You know, he's got a wife who's a sweetheart, like a princess. She stuck with him through everything. That's a real woman. But we all find different people and paths in life. And the girl like I now, I'm so, excuse me, I'm so blessed. She's a sweetheart.

And it is what it is. You know, you live and you learn and you you learn what's right and what's not right. For a long time, I didn't know was right. I didn't. I was crazy. I thought crazy things. And I'm just being honest. It's about change.

And that's why I love your show because it's about you can do crazy things in the past, but it's about change, real change, not change. Oh, I'm changed. But meanwhile, you're selling baseball bats or you're abusing your victims, families. It's not about that. It's about real change. And well, and you get that change through lived experience experience. I got five. I'm going to have five grandchildren come March and I'm

It's just like, I'm just blessed. I'm so happy. Everything is turned around for me.

And, you know, like I said, I'm here with Jeff because Jeff, you know, did his thing. He's got a great wife, a great little two kids. I got two kids. I got five grandchildren come in March. I'm blessed. I'm blessed. That's why I come on. I called you all summer and he's like, I'm by the pool. I can't talk. I'm going to the movies. My condo got a pool. I told you to come down. You don't want to come down. Now, Jeff, you have a story that is a hot topic.

Yeah. Yeah.

came from it because you decided to share that story. - I think the original reason that I wanted to tell the story, this is way before I met you or for years, I started putting together a book, which in the next year, year and a half will be out. - We'll have you back again when it comes out. - Yep, "House of Hate" will be out and we'll get back on and talk about that. But all these years, I never felt like I had a platform. It started off with, as I told you in our earlier interview, with betrayal from people that I worked with.

A lot of things that they did to move the investigation a different way, disregard a witness. Those are a lot of the reasons I ended up being incarcerated over there. And for years, I wanted to yell it out to people. Look, you're not going to believe what happened to me. You're not going to believe this story.

And this is how it started. And this is how it got to here, but I didn't have a platform to do it. So it was great to come on your show and be able to open up. And I can't believe the responses I got from people. And I would say 99.9%

were, Jeff, I love the podcast. You did a great job and it was very well done and we love Ian. But it was good to get on there and talk about all that stuff because I definitely was betrayed. It's like therapy. It is. It's coming on and someone that has been in your shoes before because a therapist hasn't. So coming onto the show, people get comfortable and they're able to talk about it. Well, cops don't. I mean, obviously it happens, but it's not often that you've got a cop that goes to jail.

It's not. Again, you see it a lot more now with social media, but the story was just different. I mean, here you are one day, you're working, and my wife asked me, do you want to go to my college reunion? I say no. I'm going to make some extra money on overtime. Oh, wow. And then that incident happens, and it changes our whole life. Do you ever think about that? Of course. Do you say, if I just went to that reunion, my life would be different? I'm a cop working a flagman job on the road, I think.

I should still be out here, but I'm actually in the timeframe now where I would have retired in the last probably six months. Yeah. I'd have already been done. Well, listen, Jeff, Chicky, I really appreciate you guys coming back here, doing part two. This was great. Mr. Chicky, we're going to grab some food for your birthday, man. Get you some. Happy birthday today. Don't worry. How old are you now, Chicky? You're going to go for some money. Don't worry. How old are you now? You know,

Should I say 56? You're 56? Yeah, 1967. I look good, right? You look good for 56, Chicky. Yeah, he does. No, but I'm glad I met you guys. You know, I met Chicky and then I met Jeff after Chicky, right? It's been an absolute pleasure, Ian. You're doing a great job here.

Hearing some of these stories and these guys making epic comebacks and thank you guys opening up with you And it's been he has different stories than me on the comments, please. This is to your viewers Help me out a little bit. I'm a little heavy, but don't torture me. They said I eat the mob But listen, I'm the first one to laugh at myself and

But, you know, I've been through a lot. Help me out. Shiki, you know, I made a TikTok saying what I ate in prison. It was you as the main thumbnail or whatever that did. Yeah, but I was, I really ate it. I got a picture on my Instagram. I know, but they were like, there's no way this guy was just eating two of this. I lost 100 pounds.

50 pounds in a year. There's pictures on my Instagram. Look it up. Why isn't there a book out there with commissary menus? I thought about that. Larry Lawton just dropped one. A big shot did it. Some big rapper did it. Well, Larry Lawton just dropped one too. A lot of people did it. It's a hot thing. I didn't know.

But, you know, just for this show, please, everyone, give me a good comment. Absolutely. Because like him, he said he didn't bother him. I was ready to jump off the Connecticut South End Bridge. All right, guys. Thanks for coming on the show. You got it, Ian. Thanks again, man. I appreciate it. Appreciate it. Thank you, bro.