David Sutcliffe - Polarization, Patterns, And The Real Andrew Tate
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All right, Mr. David Sutcliffe, welcome to the Man Talk Show. Am I saying your name right, Sutcliffe? You got it. Okay, perfect. Okay, good. I didn't check with you beforehand as I normally do with my guests, but welcome to the show. I really love your work and your take. I feel like you are the type of guy that most men would just love to sit down with and have a conversation with. You're very personable. And I think there's a lack of

just sort of like guys in the therapeutic space that men can listen to. And one of the sort of critiques that I've heard from a lot of men is,

I don't feel like my therapist or my psychologist has any type of real life experience that makes me want to respect them. And I feel like you're the type of individual that a lot of guys can listen to and say, actually, this guy does have a good amount of real life experience and professional experience that does make me want to listen to him. So kudos to that because I've heard nothing but good things from a lot of people who watch your stuff.

I want to start with probably what most people who know you or who have seen your work want to know a little bit about, which is the Andrew Tate interview. I want to get a sense of how that came about. How did you approach having a therapeutic conversation like you did with a figure that is so polarizing like Andrew Tate is?

Well, I've interviewed him twice. And the first time was four or five years ago. Before he really blew up, he just put out a notice on Twitter early on in COVID, said he was open to doing interviews. And I reached out to him and said, hey, I'm a psychotherapist. And why don't I interview you from that perspective? And he responded immediately and said that he was

up for it. It sounds like fun. And he's got a very playful spirit. So that conversation, I didn't know what to expect. My feelings about him at the time were really just curiosity. I could see that he was being intentionally provocative. I understand the game. You know, you got to be provocative.

controversial to get attention. And I could see that he was doing that. I wasn't sure how much he actually meant of what he said at the time. And that's why I was curious to talk to him. And that conversation, very popular among his fans and was widely considered his best interview, which...

Surprise me, please me, but surprise me. And I found him once I sort of tried my best to create safety for him, not to be accusational or confronting, as you do when you're a therapist, you know, show some kind of unconditional positive regard.

And he opened up and we had a connection. It was really great. And then once he blew up a couple of years later, he reached out to me and said, Hey, I want to do another interview. That first one was great. And I think now's a good time. And then what happened is he was arrested. And so some time went by and then, and then finally we made it happen. I went over to Romania and said,

sat down with him. It was a very different setting. Obviously, I'm at his compound there. And he went from being this obscure, controversial internet character to one of the most famous, infamous people on the planet. And he has quite a presence. I was in Hollywood for a long time. And I got to tell you, I haven't met anybody that has the kind of presence, maybe not presence the word, but charisma that he has. I mean, he's the real deal in that sense. So

It was a little intimidating. I was a little bit nervous, but I also, you know, he reached out to me. And so I felt permission. And I think we both understood what the game was that we were playing. What was the game? What do you mean? The game was, you don't believe in therapy and I'm a therapist. So, but you asked to talk to me. So what's that? You must...

that there's something about yourself that you don't understand and you're curious about. So, because there's a contradiction there, obviously. And so it was really like a cat and mouse game, not really a traditional therapy session would be, but it was fun.

fun and and and playful and i actually found him open reasonably so i mean he he did demonstrate a level of vulnerability if you watch the interview all the way to the end when i really come at him to try to get him to come more present like there's a moment where he actually drops the facade and he's he's there and i i mean unfortunately in the edit they didn't have a close-up of him in that moment it was a wide shot but i was looking at him and it was

you know, and you know this when you're working with people, like they come through. Yeah. And he had that moment of coming through.

And I was really struck by it and touched by it in a way. And then, you know, as a lot of clients are want to do, they kind of drop it, they come back into the mask and then he ended it quickly. But yeah, I was kind of blown away by the whole thing, to be honest, and then happy with the result, how it turned out, how people received it. And, you know, it's opened up a lot of opportunities for me because, you know, obviously nobody's ever seen him

in that kind of setting and have him opened up in a way that, you know, they hadn't seen him like that before. So I felt very proud, actually, of the whole thing. Yeah, I think, I mean, I didn't watch the whole thing. I watched some of it to kind of get a sense of your style because I think I was also curious as well as to why he would agree to something like that. And it is interesting because I think I've had some clients say,

that are similar to him. I've worked with a lot of men that are hedge fund owners, Wall Street guys, very charismatic, very sharp, very intellectual. And there's almost like this edge that they bring into a therapeutic environment, which is kind of like that chess attitude, right? It's like, I'm going to see if you can hang with me

And if you can hang with me, then maybe you can see the real version of me. Or you can see deeper into who I actually am that I don't allow other people to see or experience. I wonder if, like, is

Is that something that you see within a lot of men? Is that something that you see within a certain subset of men? Is there something that happens in your perspective developmentally in childhood that leads to that type of really heavy masking and needing to kind of go 12 rounds with somebody in order to let them in? Just context that a little bit more for us. Well, in terms of my background in core energetics,

We would call that the psychopathic defense, you know, or the aggressive pattern. And it's not like traditional psychopathy. It doesn't mean that the person is a psychopath. It's really just a label to describe a way that, yeah, that we developed through childhood or defense, a way that we've created safety and safety.

You know, I have that defense. So I, you know, it's easy for me to navigate it because I know it really well. And so I'm not put off by Andrew because I can see right through it, right? Because I have the same thing. And a lot of CEOs or successful people, actors, newscasters have this defense and, you know, it manifests in a lot of different ways, but they're not very trusting. And the real agenda is to control.

Control is how they create safety. And they're generally very charismatic and usually quite successful. But maybe something happens to them, which is what happened to me, is that I got what I wanted, but something felt a little bit empty inside. There was some dissatisfaction. I wasn't able to connect with people in a genuine way. And I really felt isolated and alone. So, you know, when you're those kinds of characters, right?

because of how they approach life or conversations or dialogue in general can be very challenging for a lot of different therapists.

But I think there's a small group of us who have, you know, work with that defense and have that defense where, you know, we're not threatened by it. We're not put off by it. We're able to hold it effortlessly. And I think what happens is once you pass that test, as you suggested, they kind of relax and begin to let down because, of course, that's what we all want. We want to be able to show who it is we really are. Yeah.

but most of us don't feel safe to do that. It's interesting. I have the same defense, by the way. So I get it. And I think that's in part why I attract very similar clients. People that work with me have a joke that I attract versions of myself into working with me, which maybe is, I mean, I think is a good thing because I've spent a lot of time diving into my own defenses. But

What I find interesting about this is that for a lot of men, I think that they don't feel like the therapeutic space is really conducive for working with men or working with the natural defenses and resistances that men might have. There's a cultural conversation or narrative

that's really being pushed, maybe less so now, but has really been pushed on men that the solution to all of their problems is to just be more vulnerable. And I'm curious with somebody like Tate, how you approach a conversation where the aim is to have something within him be revealed that maybe he wouldn't normally share in that type of environment. Are you

Are you building trust? Are you really trying to ensure that there is a safety there? Because I think, maybe I'll pull back and tell you why I'm asking this question. I think for a lot of women that tune into this show or that are just dating men that are like myself or you or whomever it might be, the big question is, how do I crack through the defenses? How do I actually get to know a deeper part of this person that...

almost has an impenetrable force field around certain parts of their identity or their psyche or their personality. And it can feel lonely and isolating. And so I wonder how we can encourage men like that to be more open and then how we can support people who are with them to build deeper connections with them.

Yeah, it's a great question. Well, I guess the first thing that comes up is don't resist the resistance, right? Like, if you're in battle with the defense, especially with a psychopath, you're going to lose every time. You're not winning that battle ever, right? Because they'll take it all the way.

I mean, that's where they live. That's what they love. They want to be in the fight. And so you have to sort of let them win, like give it up, right? Just listen, affirm what they're saying. I mean, that's what I did with Tate. I mean, he makes a lot of sense. He's rationalizing, but those rationalizations are actually, they're very powerful and they've made him very successful. So I can't take that away from him. I can't tell them that he's wrong. I'm not going to sit there and say, hey, you know, well, this is all a defense.

And he's going to say, well, look at everything that it's got me, right? Like you have to affirm that part and say, you don't have to give that up. Like I'm not asking you to surrender this defense, right? It's just that perhaps there's more. There's other tools in the toolkit. And once they feel that they're affirmed, that they're understood, that they're felt, I think that's when you can begin to open

open them up to other possibilities. And a lot of men I see, you know, around childhood wounding, it's like, well, that's what happened to me and it may be the man that I am. And so why would I go back and look at that? And it's like, well, yes. And it's given you all of this and congratulations on your fortitude and getting through it and, and

creating an amazing life for yourself, but what's it cost you? And I think what it costs men is a lot of connection, a lot of love, like pleasure. And I think they're so cut off from that

that they may not even know that they're longing for it because they've actually never had a life where that was available to them, which is why they have this defense. And so you have to go very, very slowly and delicately and gently. And you have to demonstrate competence because they're going to be challenging you all the time and they're going to be trying to trigger you.

I mean, you're in battle with a defense that is protecting some part of them that was hurt in a way that felt annihilating. And they never want to feel that again. And so you're doing battle with a fire-breathing dragon. And you have to sort of...

figure out how to tame that dragon. And you're not going to tame it by confrontation. Or if the confrontation, if there is confrontation, it has to be very...

specific and at exactly the right moment with the kind of tone. I mean, with Tate, it was like everything was playful. And if I didn't challenge him, he wouldn't have respected me, right? So I was going back and forth with that dance. And then you're testing, okay, I'm going to say this thing, see how that responds or how he responds to that.

And then maybe I push, maybe I pull back. And it was a constant dance, as you said, a chess match. So for the women out there, what do you do? I mean, you know, it's tricky. You're probably with that man because he is charismatic and successful and he's able to be a provider and that's exciting for you.

But if you can't penetrate him in that way, I think you have to have a lot of patience and understanding and hold in your consciousness that what he's protecting is something that, as I said, is very painful. And it's easy to forget that. It's easy to overlook that because the defense is so powerful and controlling that actually there's a wounded child in there.

that doesn't trust, that's very scared and got really, really hurt. So if you can hold that in your mind in the interaction, just that consciousness can help soften the person. That protection mechanism is almost like a hyper-vigilance towards self-reliance. That's right. I can't trust anybody else and I have a hyper-vigilance towards self-reliance.

over-indexing self-reliance. I can only rely on me and I've become so proficient at relying on me that I actually don't necessarily need anybody else. And so other people's opinions, perspectives, what they could contribute becomes almost irrelevant.

And I think that's one of the things that for a lot of people, I mean, there's many things that I think irritate a lot of people about Andrew Tate, because like you said, he's a very polarizing individual. But I think for a lot of people, that is part of the irritation, because it's almost like this

obnoxious, like I don't need anybody because I've got myself so intensely. Now there is a caveat to that, which is his brother and they seem to have a very good relationship. But one final question on this and then we'll move forward because I don't want to spend the whole interview talking about Andrew Tate. But it sounds like what you were saying was that a lot of, and maybe I'm misinterpreting it, so I want to make it clear.

A lot of his personality that gets put out on the internet is sort of a, not fabricated version, but it's a very charismatic show that is meant to, that is designed for a specific purpose.

Am I encoding that right? Am I interpreting that correct? Or is something different? Because it almost seems like, because I think I've questioned whether or not people like Andrew are creating a caricature that they put out to be polarizing for a very specific end or outcome. It's like, I'm going to be this polarizing to get all this attention, to make money, to drive people towards my products or my offerings or my services.

And I've wondered how much of that is not necessarily fabricated, but curated in a way for a very specific outcome, or if that's genuinely just like that's who he is. So I'd love to hear your thoughts on that.

I think it's an aspect of who he is. I think it's genuine. I don't think he's exactly putting it on. I think we all on social media present a kind of image for whatever reason. When I spent some time with him, obviously just in the interview and I was there for a couple of days, so I got to know him a little bit and I can feel his softer side, his playful side. So I could see where he gets in. It's almost like a zone. So there is a performance element to it.

But it is real. I think he's really... And I tried to talk to him about this. It's like, there's a way that he's a kind of artist, like a performance artist. I actually think he's one of the most brilliant performance artists out there. And I don't say that to say that what he's doing is exactly a performance, but...

If you actually look at his writing, his tweets, like you're on his email, this, he's a genius. I mean, there's no fucking question that that guy is a genius. The way he can hold and articulate information, whether you agree with it or not, it's uncanny. And he knows that about himself. Like he knows and understands his power. And I think he's got a part of him that is really trying to do something good in the world. And I confronted him on that. Like, are you doing all the good that you can do?

And obviously you have a shadow. What is it and how is it getting in your way? What did he say to that, just out of curiosity? Well, you know, he said when I called him on it on like, hey, man, you know, you're purporting to be helping all of these men, but you started your career, you know, exploiting these very men through this webcam business. Like that's a contradiction. And are you resolved?

inside yourself with that. And he said that that was the best argument that he'd ever heard against himself, which was not my argument. I had a female client, like, was like, you're going to go interview this guy. You need to ask him this. And I thought it was a very good question. And he didn't really have an answer for it. He ended up rationalizing something. I thought it was his weakest moment in the interview. So I think there are things within him that are unresolved. And I think they've gotten him into trouble. And I think they'll continue to get it

to get him into trouble. And so from my perspective, it was really like wanted to challenge him. I know this isn't really an answer to your question, but this is where it's going. I wanted to challenge him. It's like, bro, you got all this fucking power. You got this brain, this, the, the, you look a certain kind of way. Like, I think it's your responsibility to do the most good in the world.

Right. And if you don't do that, you're actually not going to be fulfilled. Like all the cars and all the women and all of that, you know, come on, man. You're like, you know, you're smarter than that. And I also, you know, listen, he's a young guy. Life is long, relatively young. I mean, I hope that he'll continue to change it of all. I don't know what's going to happen with him, but there's something that is authentic in him.

He's living his life. There's a kind of karma too that I think he has. Like I recognize that sitting across from him for two hours, like really grilling him. It's like he's in his thing and you sort of have to just go, okay, like this is his thing. Like this is his choice. Like this is what he's doing. And

There's some force inside him that I don't think can be argued with. And we all have that, right? We all have a kind of our karma. And I don't think we can execute our life without the shadow coming into play. And maybe, Connor, like...

it's necessary. Like, this is something I think about all the time. It's like, am I supposed to eradicate my lower self? Like, how does that work exactly? Like, I think my shadow comes in handy. And actually, I've noticed for me, like, especially in my relationship, like the dark side of me when it comes out, if it can be held in the container of the relationship, it actually reveals truth. And it's the same for my wife. Like, sometimes when she's cruel to me,

It's like, if we can hold that, like we get to deeper places. And so in a way, I almost admire Andrew for showing all of who he is, including his own darkness, including his judgments.

And that he's, there is a service that he's doing. And in that place, he is actually extraordinarily vulnerable. I mean, he is showing the world who he is. Now there's distortion there. There's other layers, right? But putting yourself out there to be judged in that way harshly is a kind of vulnerability that I think has to be respected.

As you're talking about the revealing the shadow, my initial sort of training was in Jungian psychology. And this is something that a lot of people have asked over the years of like, am I supposed to, is the aim to eradicate the shadow? And Jung talked about integrating the shadow. I don't know if that process ever fully

happens because there's a discovery process that I think just continues to unfold. And in relationship, my wife's a marriage and family therapist, and so we work with couples all the time. But in our relationship, there's been these inflection points where one of us has had to learn to love a part of the other

that they don't like about themselves. Like she's had to love parts of me that I haven't known how to be with fully. And I've had to love parts of her that she hasn't known how to be with fully. And it's almost like that relating

Whether it's an insecurity or a fear or an element of ourselves that we have shame around, it's such an intricate dance. And or to point out the part that we're really struggling with, that's coming online that has been buried or hidden in the shadow for a very long time. And so I think that's a very integral part of any type of relationship.

I want to get into your framework. So maybe let's just start high level. Talk to me about what core energetics is, how you would define it and describe it, and then why it's a modality that you use and deploy. Core energetics is a somatic psychotherapy, and it evolved out of the Reikian model and then bioenergetics, Alexander Loewen, which a lot of people have heard of.

And it's also merged with a set of very powerful lectures called the Pathwork Lectures that sort of forms the philosophical foundation of the work. Higher self, lower self, mask or adapted self. That's the real framework that they work from. And so Core uses physical techniques like you have a big foam block and a bataka and

you hit and kick and punch and emote and there's breath work and tantrum work. It's very physical, very cathartic, you know, and when people hear that, they think, okay, you know, primal scream therapy. And yes, there's a way that it's that, but it's when practiced effectively and efficiently, all of that is done very intentionally. And, you know, the way that I think about it is that

You know, we have repressed energy, emotions, aspects of ourself. And Core Energetics is really trying to help you integrate all of that held back, repressed energy so that you can get back into your

flow into the fullness of your life force, full expression, which would be a higher self. But you have to go through the layers. You have to go through the mask and the judgments and the blame and the victimization. And you have to give room for that to be expressed and then go into the lower self, which is the unconscious negative intention, the desire to

punishment or harm on others for the perceived wrongs that they've done to you. And then ultimately, if you go through those layers, it'll take you to your pain, right? And most of us don't want to feel our pain. I don't think any of us want to feel our pain. And so we need to be highly leveraged to

to do that. And core as a modality, I think is really powerful because it goes, as I said, it goes in through the body. And when you're sitting in therapy across from somebody, talking with them, it's very easy to rationalize. Like the mind is very good at controlling. But when you're doing physical things, it takes you out of control. And so very often emotions and feelings will come up that surprise you.

And then thoughts or memories related to those emotions will begin to emerge as well. I mean, there's so many things that I did not understand about myself or memories that I had that were repressed.

That I know were true. I mean, I remembered them once I remembered them, but I had blocked them off and they only came out through the emotional release, through the expression. And so you're really trying to help people like integrate all of that material, all of those feelings and back in so they can, you know, essentially make themselves whole.

It sounds like in some ways when you do psychedelics, it shuts down the default mode network of the brain, which allows you to sort of bypass the thinking mind. It almost, you know, that the sort of rationalizing, critiquing, self-judging, self-referencing, you know,

that most of us are contending with on a daily basis. It sounds like what you're saying is that core energetics is a sort of a way to not necessarily bypass that, but quiet that so that you can get to the core memories of the body. That's right. I said this to a client the other day of like, it's very common that men that have experienced some form of trauma in childhood don't have memories of it. And they're continuing to try and look for the memories of like the imagery of it, but the memories aren't stored in the mind, they're stored in the body. And

And so what you're saying is that you can go through a sequence of these somatic exercises that are going to get you into the somatic memories that are stored in the body and then be able to process those. Right. So...

Curious to get your take on, maybe we'll just get one more piece. What are the five personality patterns? Well, five personality patterns, you know, this was Wilhelm Reich came up with this and he was really the first to make the mind-body connection and talk about human beings as a kind of energy system. And what he noticed is that there was five patterns that emerged from

that manifest in our psychological orientation and belief systems about ourselves and the world, but also manifested in the body and holding patterns in the body. So he came up with schizoid, oral, masochist, psychopath, and rigid. And they've been

re-labeled, understandably, because those feel pretty pathologizing and a little scary. Nobody wants to be a psychopath or a schizoid. So the pattern for schizoid would be the leaving pattern. So they were very scared as a child. This happened in early childhood, and they had to leave their bodies, right? And so they have a tendency to leave in life. And so the oral pattern would be the merging

and this is associated with unmet needs. And so they didn't get the sustenance emotionally or otherwise that they needed, so they feel like they need to merge with others in order to survive. The masochist would be the enduring pattern or the controlled child. And they had to control their energy at a time when they were going through individuation and they wanted to explore and find themselves, find their autonomy, but they were controlled in some way. And so they had to learn to hold on. Hmm.

to their energy, contain it, and then endure. And that becomes a pattern throughout their life, holding back and making that a virtue. And then psychopathy that we now call the aggressive pattern. It's everything that we were just talking about. It's the kind of narcissistic wounding where you have to be something more than who you are

for the parent. You have to be great. You have to please them in a way. And so you have to deny your own vulnerability and put up this mask.

or create this image of uh of power and and control and then the rigid character is um i mean this one's a little bit more complicated i mean traditionally it's like the idea of it's a rules-based order like you you outsource your own self you know referencing orientation to life and instead you're referencing external external rules

So it could be somebody who grew up in a very religious household, served to follow the rules of God, or in a household where, you know, in this, we're successful. You know, you have to be the captain of the football team. You have to be a CEO. You have to be rich and all of that. And so you're always looking to the external world for validation. But that's a general summary of the five character structures. But I use them in my work. It's a model. They're not perfect. Nobody is just one character.

I think I, I, when I go through them, I'm like, I relate to that. I relate to all the character structures in different ways. Usually we have a primary pattern and maybe, maybe a secondary, but there's, there's aspects of, of all of us, all of them in all of us. Yeah.

Yeah, it's interesting because I've studied them somewhat extensively and integrate them into my work. And it's fascinating to see the patterns show up in people. And it was interesting because as you were working, the clips that I saw of you working with Tate, I kept coming back to like, I wonder how much of this is the intersection between psychopathic and rigid, which is

arguably like the most complex personality pattern to work with, you know, because it's just this intersection of like, it's almost like impossible to kind of get through the, not impossible. It's very hard and very challenging to get through the barriers, right? Because there's this, I don't need anybody or anything. I have to rely on myself. And then there's this very strict,

rule of law that has been enacted in my psyche that I abide by and follow. And I don't allow anything else to sort of infiltrate that.

Our good friend Michael Gay has posed a question that relates to the personality patterns because he knew that I was going to be interviewing today. And he was curious about if you viewed America or American culture as one of the five personality patterns, which one would it be? And what do you think we need to do on a cultural level

to get past our more, our sort of unhealthy adaptive patterns. He asks very light questions. No, no. I think about it all the time. No, I think it's, for me, the American culture is clueless

clearly psychopathic. Yeah. Right. And it was some, a lot of rigidity in there, just as you said, I mean, that's, that's the culture. That's who dominates the culture. I mean, literally I would say 80% of the people in our government are psychopaths, you know, it's psychopathic. They're the aggressive pattern. They, they, they're very charismatic and they're controlling and manipulating. They don't even know that they're doing it. They just think that this is what life is and this is how I operate. So it's, it, for most of them, it's largely unconscious and

And they actually, on some level, like they convince themselves that it's good.

And most of the people in the culture that we look up to have this defense and, and they're often very successful and, you know, influencers all over social media, Hollywood actors, broadcasters. I mean, predominantly they all have this, uh, narcissistic is another, you know, it's cause it, cause really the psychopathy and narcissism are, they, I mean, they manifest all

The wounding is slightly different, but they're very, very related. And it's a presentational self and power and status are primary. And so I see that everywhere. I see that in myself.

I find myself falling prey to it by feeling I have to buy into it. Like that's the game that I have to play. I think a lot of people feel that way. And is that, sorry to interrupt everybody, but is that just like, is it so predominant within American culture because we've become enamored with the charisma that coincides with it or that we're incentivized to move towards, we're incentivized to move towards status? Like, is that just...

sort of ingrained within American culture and society? Like, I'd love for you to just piece that apart a little bit more. Yeah, well, it's a great question because...

I don't want to speak for Tate, but he might say, hey, this is the game we're in. You can like it or not like it, but this is what it is. And so I want the best set of tools possible to be successful in this matrix that we're living in. So what's the problem, right? And I understand that, but I think it's both of the things that you said. I think we are incentivized to be that way. That feels like where the values of the culture are.

We praise success and money and people on social media who get a lot of likes and attention. And of course, it's almost unescapable, but what I see happening in the culture, and this probably connects in a deeper way to all the talk about men, is there's not really a promotion of values, really deep values in being of service. Mm-hmm.

Like having integrity, being noble. You know, I think about Hollywood and...

Back in the day, you had Gary Cooper, like Shane. I mean, that's a good fucking man. And even John Wayne, I know there's a lot of... But his whole thing was, I'm here to be of service. I come in to serve this. A man's got to do what a man's got to do. And now Hollywood is a lot of manhoes, right? Dating supermodels. And their work is fantastic. But as role models, it's like, is that...

what I want to aspire to, you know, or, or, you know, in the music industry. So, you know, for me, and I've, I've fallen prey to all of it. Right. And, um, I think what we need is more, we need to promote real values and like duty and honor. Like those are good things. And when, when you say those things to a man, even just when I say it myself, like it feels good. It's like, I want to, I want to be a man of duty and honor and

and service. Like then I know what I'm doing, but unfortunately I don't think that has been reinforced for a lot of men in the last, I don't know, 20, 30 years. It's interesting because, okay, so there's so many threads that I want to pull on in there.

one of the threads is about men and modern masculinity and the challenges that they're facing. The other thread is what you were talking about with regards to the game that's being played, right? This is what Tate sort of says, this is the game that's being played and so play it

maximally, just do whatever it takes to win the game. I've become more interested in chess lately. What's been fascinating is that I'm usually less interested in or fixated on winning the game, and I'm more interested right now on becoming more proficient at the game because I'm not very good at it yet.

What's been interesting about it is that every time I play somebody, who I think they are, their character really shines through in the game. I started teaching my wife. This is just a quick little aside. I started teaching my wife how to play chess.

And it was so funny because as we were playing, she's just like full mount attack. She is doing everything that she can to just murder me on the chess board. Just super aggressive, super charging forward at every opportunity trying to take me out. And it's really an embodiment of her character. She's really a gung-ho. She can be super direct in her personality in a

in a lot of life and she's very competitive. And it's been a funny part to our dynamic because we have this like back and forth, like we're both very competitive people. And so it's funny where sometimes we're engaged in that. But I've grappled with this in terms of

how I go about building out what I'm doing for men, how I go about building out man talks, how I go about creating content online. And it does seem like we are in an age where in order to grab people's attention, you have to be almost uncomfortably polarizing. I wonder, I really...

I'm not really interested in that. I'm not really interested in being polarizing for the sake of just garnering attention. And I've noticed that the videos that I put out sometimes that get the most attention are the ones that have a little bit of polarization in the title or the theme or whatever. Mm-hmm.

And I wonder, is that really the cost of pushing forward something? Is there a different way to do it? Do you have to... Is it just that the game right now is leveraging polarization as much as humanly possible in order to grab attention, in order to do good in the world? What's your take on some of this? Because it does seem like that's...

That's almost baked into the equation. And if you don't play the game that way, it's very hard to advance your whatever, to use the chess analogy, advance your pawns. Yeah. Yeah. No, it's a great question.

I think if you're being genuine and you happen to be polarizing, it is what it is, right? But do you want to be intentionally provocative? I mean, I think sometimes there's a bait and switch, right? If I get people's attention and then I can pull them into this world through that and then show them something different, I think that's okay.

And, you know, as long as you're being relatively, relatively authentic to yourself, I mean, marketing is marketing, right? And you want to get, you want to connect with people. And so for someone like you, it's like, who's got a really good message and has a genuine desire to help people and has the skills to be able to do it.

to be polarized and bring more attention to yourself to get more people in. It feels like okay to me. How do you navigate that? Because you probably have the opportunity all the time to put out more polarizing content and conversations. Yeah, well, I...

I've resisted being polarized because I've had a lot of polarizing opinions over the last all of my life. It's been like this for me, right? Like I and it's part of part of my gift, I guess, and why I'm good at what I do. I like I see things. I see the bullshit.

And there's a neurotic part of me that can't tolerate it. Like that's from my history. Right. And, and so there's a, there's a light and a shadow. I can see it, but I also can't tolerate it. And so my work is like, okay, like the world, there's always bullshit in the world. There's bullshit in me. You know, people are doing their best and, and you have to learn to tolerate that. But there's some part of me that just wants to, you know, get to the heart of it to reveal the truth because that will make me feel actually safer. Like the safe part.

The truth is safety. And that's actually a classic characteristic of the psychopathic defense. They really are, they go after the truth. So, you know, I guess my decision was like, I want to be as authentic as I can be. And so I don't need to be talking about all the things that I think all the time. But if I have an impulse, if I wake up one morning and I have something there, like I feel like I need to say this, then I trust that. You know, I don't have a strategy of

about it. I'm not trying to manipulate anything. I try to just go with what's, what's real, what's coming up, what's organic for me. And I put it out there and, and, and, you know,

suffer the consequences or the opposite, you know? And it's, it's, I just made that decision. I mean, you know, this it's like, I think it's actually, we all, you have to be polarizing to some degree, you know, to attract your audience, you're going to repel other people. And that's, that's a hard thing for, for people to hold because it's hard to be judged or condemned or, or you feel like you're not being seen or you're being attacked or

And so I went through a period where I was intentionally provocative, particularly on like Facebook where, you know, my private Facebook page with my friends where I was just, I just was going off on everything to practice like holding it for myself. Like, okay, I'm going to throw this out there.

And then I'm going to see what comes back and like to see if I can hold myself here, not take myself out, not make myself bad, not make them bad, like hold this game that we're all playing. And it was really useful for me, you know, to just deal with people's transference back onto me and be able to hold myself there. Like I'm seeing myself. I know what I'm doing. Other people may not. And they're going to have a reaction to that. And

But can I hold on to myself in the face of everything that's coming back to me? Transference, both positive and negative. And in fact, I think that is the master skill of any facilitator or therapist or leader, because when you're in that position, almost everything coming at you is transference. It's projection. Yeah.

And so you have to practice holding on to yourself, holding on what's true to you in the face of that. Otherwise, you get lost in it. And then you don't really know what's up.

So, yeah, I practice it, to be honest, and I try to enjoy it. And over time, I've got less and less sensitive to the criticism. I just be able to see it for what it is. I mean, in a lot of cases, it's like they're just zombies. That's what I realized. The first time I really got into trouble and they were trying to cancel me and all this attention was coming at me on Twitter.

which was just, all of it was completely insane. And when I didn't react to it, in fact, I doubled down, making it like made a joke, which demonstrated like, you're not going to get to me. It's like the next day they all went away. And then I realized, oh, they're just feeding. They're trying to get you. And it's their own shame that they're projecting onto you. And if you kind of apologize or manage it in some way,

They just smell blood in the water. And the moment you just stand up and say no, they all just go away and look to feed off something else.

I really appreciate and value what you're saying because I think one of the ways that I've tried to manage this is just through being authentic, like you're saying. And I had a Facebook group as well at one point, which I have since let go years ago. I just stopped engaging with the group and we've sort of shut it down. But it's very interesting because I feel like in the last four years, five, maybe five or six years, going through this phase of

relationship being on the chopping block of disagreement. It's like people have lost the ability to maintain relationship in the face of disagreement. It's like, well, if you disagree with me or you have an opposing perspective from me, then our relationship is negated. It's no longer

And not only that, you have strangers just throwing their opinions at you, trying to cancel you, which is a pretty wild thing. But I think that's been the hard part for a lot of people because I know so many people who have perspectives and beliefs and opinions that maybe aren't mainstream and

They're really afraid to talk about those things in a public way for the fear of being unfriended, not being uninvited to family dinners, all of those types of things. And so it's a very interesting time to have so much at stake for authenticity, right? It's like if you're going to be real and authentic about what you believe and what you stand for and where your values are, that the threat to that might be that you lose a lot of relationships, right?

And I'm curious for the men that are listening who maybe feel that way, what would you say to them? How would you help a client navigate that when they're maybe holding on to opinions or perspectives or beliefs that they believe are going to sort of quote unquote get them in trouble with people that are in their lives? What would you suggest to them? It's a great question. And I think it's this universal theme, of course.

Are you betraying yourself? That's the question to ask. Because if you're betraying yourself, for me, over and over again, you have nothing. You won't trust yourself. You're not going to be in your integrity. So that's not to say you should be intentionally provocative, or it's not to say that you shouldn't be discerning about what you say and who you say it to. But if you feel like there's some kind of self-betrayal, like, I'm not going to reveal my truth.

I'm not going to say what's true for me because I'm afraid of losing the relationship. I think that's a very self-destructive and painful thing. And we all struggle with it, of course, because it goes to the core of an issue that we all have, which is we all had to betray ourselves in some way, some aspects of who we were to stay in connection with our caregivers. That's just how it works.

And part of the growing up process is just that, like claiming those lost parts back, like being willing to say the thing. And sometimes it's unconscious, right? Like we're not even aware of how it is we're betraying ourselves. But I can only speak for me, and I did that all of my life. That's why I struggled in life.

relationships because I would always betray myself in relationships to try to be a good guy for them and then not ask for what I needed and ended up resenting them and at some point would blow up into these huge fights and they couldn't understand what was going on. And I didn't understand what was going on. And it felt wrong or scary to say what was true for me. And so, you know, you can start small.

You don't have to come out right away and express your opinion, but where are those little places inside yourself that you're holding back?

Because I think the more truth you tell, you know, the more power you have and the more that you can tolerate the discomfort of the potential loss of the relationship. I mean, for me, it's like if I betray myself to stay in connection with another person, am I really in connection with them? Yeah.

Because I'm not being authentic. So I want authentic connection. And the only way to do that is to say what's true for me and risk them leaving or demonizing me or making me bad or wrong. Like, that's all we really have. And so that, again, is like really at the foundation of what it is that I'm teaching. And obviously, I think a lot of people out there are wrestling with this because it feels like the stakes are

are so high, you know, particularly around the politics and around COVID, if you really expressed how you felt, you might get fired from your job and you might get canceled off social media. You might get labeled in a particular kind of way.

But I can say for me, you know, when I came out, I mean, I was, I was voted for Trump 2016, 2020, 2024. And, you know, for lots of different reasons, I just wanted, I thought the system was bullshit. I'm like, we need a wrecking ball. And this guy looks like the perfect guy for the job. And I didn't buy into all the, the accusations that he was a racist or white supremacist, but a lot of people did. And I got annihilated. Right. And I lost a lot of friends, including family members.

And also the same thing with the vaccine. I didn't want to take the vaccine. I just, it was an intuition. I didn't have a, I was just like, I don't want that thing in my body. I'm healthy. I'll be fine. And if I die, then it's my time. It's all good.

And, you know, I lost a lot over that as well. But now that we're out of the, it feels like the haze of that, you know, and there's more openness around it. It's like I can look back to those moments and I feel a lot of pride, right? Like I stood alone in my friend group and I was true to myself. And that gives me a kind of confidence that,

Moving forward, it was painful. I lost a lot. I doubted a lot. I had a lot of resentment. I was fucking angry at people, man. Like, fuck you, you know, for judging me in this way. Like, this is what I see, you know, and this is, and I'm a good person. I'm not, you know, I'm not a racist or whatever it is.

And, um, and I had to get through that too. I had to actually had to be willing to feel the pain, which is exactly what you're talking about. Can I feel the pain of the disconnection of being demonized, you know, and, and hold onto myself, hold onto my goodness, hold onto my good intentions. By the way, even if there's some shadow in it, even if I get some things wrong, like that's okay too. Right. But I ha I have nothing else. If I'm not, if I don't hold onto myself and express that I don't have anything.

And so I guess, you know, what would I say? Yeah. I'd encourage everybody to in your own way and what, and the ways that feel right for you to like, you gotta, you gotta stand up and speak your truth and, and, and suffer the consequences. Like you can handle it. You're not a little boy, you know, who's afraid to lose connection with his mother or father. That's not what's going on. Right. You can tolerate your wife being angry at you, being disappointed. You can tolerate your friends not understanding. And actually the more you hold onto yourself, um,

right? The more they actually respect it. And that's what I feel has happened to me. It took some time, but now I see it. Like a lot of people have come back around and be like, dude, thank you. That feels good. Yeah. I mean, it's interesting because there's a certain quality of suffering and fracturing that happens inside of us when we are lying through omission.

And we're lying through the suppression of a real truth within us. And I think everybody's experienced that, right? When you have something that is innately true within you, whether it's a belief or a perspective,

and you don't hold on to that and you're not willing to bring that forward, there is a consequence that we pay to that. And it's very interesting because it's, I mean, I've really tried to, I've caught a lot of flack on social media over the last number of years for following such a wide, diverse group of people. You

I follow the gun-toting, mega-hat-wearing, assault-rifle-shooting American patriots, and then I follow the very left-leaning, hyper-woke liberals. Because I'm very curious, and I think I'm very wary, personally, of falling into this trap of

of cutting people out of my life simply on the grounds that I disagree with them. I think that that is the most non-relational way of operating in this world, and I won't fucking stand for it. I just will not become that person that's like,

I'm not going to be friends with you anymore because you decided to get the vaccine or decided not to get the vaccine. It's like, well, that's your goddamn choice. And whichever one you want and choose, totally good with. And I might have a differing perspective and opinion on it, but I'm not going to sever a relationship with somebody on the grounds that I disagree with them. I think that that is...

I think for me, it's one of the scariest part of modern society is that we've entered into this place of, I will cut you out of my life instantaneously if you disagree with me. And it'll be so swift and severe. And it doesn't matter what your relationship is to me. You can be a parent. You can be a child. You can be a sibling. You can be a lifelong friend. It's like, if you disagree with me on this one thing, you're gone.

And I think that that is a very dangerous place for us to be socially and culturally and as a human species. And so for me, it's felt very, very important to toe that line, hold the line of, no, I will not cut people out of my life simply because I disagree with them. And to try and be an embodiment of taking a stand for maintaining relationship in the face of disagreement.

And I feel like that is so damn important. It's like, bring back disagreement. Let that be okay. That we can disagree politically and socially. Any thoughts on that? It's beautiful. I mean, I think, you know, I appreciate what it is you're holding and the powerful intention because, you know, what are you standing for? You're standing for freedom.

Like, no matter what, let's stay in connection. I think it's a very hard thing to do because what happens if we stay in connection in a place of disagreement and we really take in the person, we're going to have to confront something inside ourselves. That's really what it's about. Like, I don't want to look at that. Like, I'm going to cut you off because I don't want to see what that is. And probably if we bring it back to this idea of the lower self, there's a lot of

What I see is a kind of disowned lower self that's being projected onto another group of people. They make them bad and wrong. And if you side with those people, you are also bad and wrong. And because they're evil, they must be eradicated. And I don't think that it's overstating it to say that that energy, like what you're talking about, this cutting off energy, it's bad.

It's a killer energy. Like that's what it's trying to do. It's like cut off, kill, right? Like isolate, right?

Like in, in, in, on a primal level, if we, if we isolate it's, um, we die, like we can't survive without the tribe. And so I think it's important that we actually understand like the deep intention there. And so exactly what I'm trying to do in my work is really help people understand that that lives in all of us.

Because I can feel it in me. Like, go fuck yourself, motherfucker. You know what I mean? You want to cut me off? I'll cut you off. Like, you want to go to war? I'll go to war. Like, I feel that energy in me. Right? And it's very seductive because I feel all this juice and power and righteousness. But...

Am I willing to actually go deeper and understand that what I really want is connection and what I'm really feeling is hurt? And if I can like take ownership of that, right, and not project it out, not punish because I feel like this person is hurting me or not wanting to see me, like then maybe from that place I can stay present.

Right. And, and not be demonizing either myself or the other person. And, and I think that, I mean, that's what you're doing, right? Like you're, I mean, you, you have a charge around like these people who are cutting people off, like I'm going to take a stand, but you're not cutting off the people who are cutting off people. You know what I mean? Like you're saying I'm open, I'm here, I'm available. And I think that's, that's all, um, that you can do, but it is a, it's sad.

It's, it's really sad. And I think I, you know, unfortunately I think a lot of people have been exploited, right? They've been there, their, uh, their fear has been exploited and they've been told stories, um, that I don't think are true, you know, by, by the media and by others. And, you know, this is, it's a, the whole system is, is corrupt and, um, and what they're doing, you know, in trying to, you know, manufacture these narratives, uh,

around fear and otherizing, I think is really scary. And I hope it seems like the fever has broken to a degree, but I don't know, there may be more that we need to go through. Yeah, I mean, I think we got a lesson in weaponized shame. Right. And how powerful shame is as a psychological tool of compliance and coercion. It's like people will really...

People really want to avoid feeling any type of shame. And that's what makes it such a lethal, lethal weapon on a mass social scale, but also on an individual scale. It's like if you could shame somebody publicly,

Like nobody wants that, you know, nobody wants to go anywhere fucking near that. Yeah. So it's such a great compliance tool. You know, it's like, I can just shame you that I can control your behavior because you won't want to feel that shame internally, but you also won't want to feel the social embarrassment of maybe being wrong or, you know, being put on the spotlight and et cetera, et cetera.

I want to shift gears and just maybe close out with some very tactical things for guys that are listening. Is that okay? Or did you want to add something? Yeah, that's great. Tell me a little bit about how you frame the lower self, what that is, and how a man can go about interacting with, integrating with his lower self so that it is maybe not interfering as much in his life, causing him to sabotage so greatly as he might be. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Well, what is the lower self? It's a defense. It's our defense against pain, right? It's a protective layer. And what does the lower self say? It says no. It's resistance. It's pure resistance. And it has an intention to separate on a spiritual level, right? We know it's like,

you know, matakiasin, all are related. Everything is one thing. God is just the oneness of life. And so the lower self is trying to create separation. And how does it do that? It's like refusing to be vulnerable. I'll never be vulnerable. I'll never need. I'll never open my heart. I'll never let down. I'll never show you who I really am.

I'll never be here all the way. These are decisions, very powerful decisions that we made in response to a place that we got hurt, devastated as children at a time when we were vulnerable and helpless. So we had no other choice but to say no to

to any aspect of ourself that might then elicit a response from the environment that might again cause that pain once again. And that becomes imprinted.

right? And then we go out in life and we use that operating system, you know, and the lower self will rationalize it. Well, that's what you have to do to stay safe. So you have to make that conscious, which is not an easy thing to do. It's not that I have a hard time asking for what I need. It's like, I won't fucking ask for what I need. I won't fucking do it. Fuck you. You know, it's, there's a, there's a kind of intensity to it.

And it's not an easy thing to make contact with because that energy is cruel. It's punishing, right? And a lot of us feel shame about it. And really, I don't take people into that place and really into the darkness until I feel like they can hold themselves there.

Right. Because sometimes when we make contact with it too early, we become identified with it. And then we think, oh, I'm, I'm bad because I have these, these instincts, these impulses, like I want to punish in some way. And, and the easiest place to see it usually is in our, our personal relationships. And the example that I use, which most people can relate to is withdrawal, right? If I get hurt in a relationship, you know, fight with my wife or my girlfriend, I'm

and I withdraw, right? Rationally, I'm like, well, I'm hurt or I'm upset and I'm going to pull away. I'm going to give myself some time. And that is true. But you also want to check, is there a way that I'm punishing? Am I pulling my love away, right? So that she's going to feel hurt. And can I own the cruelty?

Like that there's an intention to hurt in response to a place that I've felt hurt. And I think once we're willing to own our capacity for cruelty, like that we have an, sometimes aspects of us have an intention to do harm and we can forgive ourselves for that, be conscious of it, take responsibility for it, obviously. But if we can make that conscious of,

And look at where it lives in all the areas of our life. We're much less likely to act out on it, let it control us in some way. So, you know, that's a kind of a simplified, and I don't know, you know, it's a lot of theoretical information, but...

You know, if you can remember that underneath that energy, that quality, and it's different in everybody, right? Like different character structures exhibited in different ways. For me, with the psychopathic defense, my lower self is a fucking dragon. Like, I will bite you, right? Like, I'm coming out. But my wife, who's...

more like enduring pattern. I won't hear about something for a couple of days and then all of a sudden it's like a dart in the side of my neck. And I'm like, what the fuck just happened? She's like looking over there looking cute, right?

It's like everybody's got their own strategy and tactic, and we don't want to let ourselves know what it is. And so, you know, it's not an easy thing to confront. But for me, it's at the heart of everything, because until it's confronted, until it's known...

And until that energy is integrated, liberated in some way, we're always going to be filled with shame about it unconsciously. And that's going to prohibit us from being, you know, fully here expressed in our gift.

And so we want to know ourselves there so we can use that energy, channel that energy into building, growing, giving love, right? And transform it in that way. I love that. So part of it is being able to recognize that.

What that lower self is, how it operates, how it shows up, what it looks like, sounds like, feels like in your body. By the way, my nickname is Dad Dragon. Self-given. I gave myself that name because I very much identify with having the fire-breathing dragon inside of me that I've had to contend with.

But it's about recognizing what that lower self looks like, sounds like, and feels like, how it comes out. And then what is it? Is it about admitting that that part is online when you're in the middle of a conflict with a partner? Is it about recognizing what the pattern is and beginning to break it? Give the guy some tactical insight. Well, you want to feel and take ownership of the places where you're being cruel.

Like that you have an intention to hurt. Got it. Like you want to know when you're doing it. Don't fucking rationalize that shit. Right? Like really, like I said that thing for one purpose, which was to hurt you. And you want to know that you're doing that because once you own that, especially in relationship, it's going to be a massive relief for your partner because she feels that that's true.

And when you take ownership of it, it actually creates safety, right? So most of us, well, I don't want to admit to that part of myself. No, you have to.

And especially as men, we have to own our capacity for cruelty. We have to own our capacity, you know, the part of us that wants to hurt women. Of course, we want to hurt women at times, you know, because we're so vulnerable to them. Nobody can make us feel pain quite like them. So you have to take ownership of the part that wants to like hurt them or hates them because of what

not because of them, because of the feelings that come up inside you. It's all about you. And so if you can know that,

And then say, well, go to the next question. Like, what is it that I'm protecting here? What am I afraid to feel? What am I afraid to confront? What is it that I'm afraid to show? And am I willing to go there? Maybe you're willing to go there. Maybe you're not. But just asking yourself that question creates a little bit of space between you and that energy. And, you know, you see it everywhere in the world, man. It's like everybody likes, you know, Jordan Peterson has talked about this.

Everybody wants to say that they would have been the one who would have refused being a Nazi. Probably not. You know, if you were a young kid in that situation, you know, it's like one step, one step, and then all of a sudden you're in it. You have to understand that you have that capacity too. And given the right set of circumstances, that could be you. And there's a real humility that exists, I think, when you take ownership of that.

And I think people who own their lower self, who really understand their capacity to do harm, are the safest people in the culture. And so I think it's imperative that men know themselves there. Yeah, I had a different thread there, but I think...

It's very interesting because I remember in that Facebook group that I was referring to before talking about how all men are capable of violence or violent act or violent thoughts. And it was so interesting to hear how many men would try and dispute that.

I would never harm anybody. What are you talking about? You have. You have for sure. I can ask you five questions and it'll be revealed. Yeah, but I like the frame that you're putting that around in terms of

Because cruelty can come in many different forms. Cruelty doesn't just have to be overt, direct, criticizing, slamming somebody verbally. It can be withholding love and intimacy. It can be actively withholding connection. It can come in so many different forms.

The last thing I wanted to touch on, I feel like we could definitely jam for hours and hours, but the last thing I wanted to touch on was advice for men who actively resist their emotion. The guys that are like, if I let them affect me or if I let myself be affected, then I'm weak. I'll collapse. I'll lose my stability. It doesn't help. It won't do anything.

How would you advise men who have that innate sense of, I don't want to feel what I'm actually feeling? Well, I'll make the case that I made to Tate, which is if you're not present with your emotions, you're not present. And presence is the most powerful quality that you can develop as a human being. And so if you want to be as powerful as you can be, you must...

to learn to be present with your emotions. That doesn't mean allowing your emotions to overtake you or overcome you and being a slave to them. That's not what that means. I think a lot of men think that, oh, I just have to let everything be expressed. No, you want to create a container for your emotions. And most men, that's why they repress them. They don't have a container for their emotions or they feel shame about them or they're going to take them out of control and they don't like the feeling of being out of control. But you have to know what you're feeling at all times.

Right. And it's like, it's really simple. I'm angry. I'm sad. You know, I'm afraid or I'm excited, happy. I mean, you can boil it down to four things. And so if you don't know what's going on, you can kind of ask yourself that question and it's in your body. You have to come into the body, right? Like you have to be willing to not figure it out through the mind.

But come into your body and know what it is you're feeling in the body and be present with that. And it's like learning to be with, like that's the phrase I use, be with, just be with what is here now inside you, tolerate the discomfort of what it is. And there's information there. It's data.

Because if you're feeling sad and you're not connected to it, you're going to act out in ways in compensation to that sadness that are not going to be authentic. So you actually want to know that you're sad. And then you can ask yourself the question, well, why am I sad? Which would be a good thing to know about yourself. Or actually, I'm angry. Why am I angry? And then you might want to discover what you're angry about. Maybe it's something you kind of block. Or excited. Or attracted. Right?

We block all kinds of things. And so it's really just about knowing yourself and understanding yourself. And for me, that's like real power because you're in reality. You're not reacting against some aspect of you that's suppressed. And it's not an easy thing to do if you don't know how to do it or if you've never been trained or if your emotions weren't

there wasn't space created for your emotions or questions asked or they weren't reflected back to you as a child. Like, but, but what I would say is that it can be learned. It's a practice and it's a powerful practice. And it's, you know, I think with all men, that's what I want. I want to be as powerful as I can fucking be.

right? To do the most good that I can do because it feels good, you know, not power over others, just my own personal power. But I can't be powerful if I'm disconnected or disassociated from myself. And it's in that place where I'm disconnected and disassociated that I'm more likely to do harm. Yeah, 100% agree. It's like what I usually say to guys is you're operating on half the data set, you know? You're stock trading with half the data on how the, you know, what's...

what the company's P&L is, right? You're like this, you wouldn't, you wouldn't do that. Listen, man, this has been a blast. I'd love to have you back on and just jam more and go more into the framework and talk more about, actually just talk more about men's sort of broadly and socially. I think that'd be a great conversation, but where can people learn more about you, follow along with your work and some of what you're up to?

David Sutcliffe.com. It's all, it's all there. You can find all the links to my socials and, and everything else that I'm up to. But yeah, David Sutcliffe.com. Beautiful. Thanks very much for joining me. Everybody that's out there listening and watching, don't forget to man it forward, share this with somebody in your life that you know would enjoy it, or maybe that wouldn't enjoy it, but you want to have that confrontational conversation.

but man it forward and share this episode with somebody. And as always, until next week, this is Conor Beaton signing off.