FROM DELOITTE AND FASTCO WORKS: Launching the Future of Space: A conversation with Deloitte’s Deb Golden and Space Perspective’s Jane Poynter
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Hey, Most Innovative Company listeners, it's Josh here. Today we have the next episode in Lead Through Disruption, our special mini-series from our friends at Fastco Works and Deloitte. Enjoy! Brought to you by Deloitte Cyber and Strategic Risk, helping your organization drive peak performance through crisis and transformation. So no matter where you're at in your journey, you can move forward fast.

I'm Deb Golden, Deloitte's US Chief Innovation Officer, and this is Lead Through Disruption.

As businesses look for new ways to maximize opportunities and innovate in a post-pandemic landscape, some of the strongest leaders emerging are those who've had to navigate and endure professional and personal disruptions in their lives. Through these challenging moments, these individuals have embraced curiosity, creativity, and the courage to think outside the box and have reimagined the possibilities of what could be.

They've forged new paths and have broken barriers that changed the way we experience the world today and see the potential of tomorrow. In finding their resilience, they've been able to turn these bold moves into lasting change and have inspired others at every level. In today's episode, I'm speaking with Jane Poynter, a serial space entrepreneur, accomplished author, and champion for change.

In 2019, Jane founded Space Perspective, a human spaceflight company with the mission to fundamentally change people's view and perception of Earth.

While she now serves as co-CEO and Chief Experience Officer of Space Perspective, she is no stranger to disruption, serving as an inaugural crew member on a two-year mission inside Biosphere 2, the world's first human-made biosphere and prototype space base. Jane has also authored two books, founded two other game-changing space companies, and most recently was named a part of the World Economic Forum's Global Innovator Community.

challenging the status quo by asking old questions in new ways, not to mention challenging us with entirely new questions, testing the unproven, diving deep into the unspoken, and challenging the unchallenged.

I thought maybe we could tease up the conversation with a little bit of your background because folks may not be familiar with it, if that's okay with you? Yeah, of course. Sounds like fun. Great. Well, you know, we often experience life events that change the trajectory of our lives. And I'm sure living in the biosphere too in your late 20s had a profound impact on your path.

You talk a lot about your journey in the human experiment, two years and 20 minutes inside Biosphere 2. But for those not familiar, perhaps you could describe exactly what Biosphere 2 was and how the experience impacted your long-term trajectory. Oh boy, how long do you have? So let me just say, Biosphere 2 is the reason that I'm doing what I'm doing today. And I think that will become obvious as I describe what the project was and still is today. So...

Back in the early 80s, I was on the design team of Biosphere 2 and then lived inside it for two years and 20 minutes in the very inaugural mission. And what we had attempted to build was the world's first human-made biosphere.

that took our planetary biosphere that had evolved over eons on a planetary scale and shrink it down into something that we could encapsulate in a completely sealed environment. And at the time it was sealed tighter than the International Space Station.

And inside it, we had a miniature rainforest, a savanna, an ocean, a marsh, a desert, and of course, where we grew our food because eight of us lived inside it, and then where we lived. And so when we went in for our two-year mission, we were really testing that hypothesis. Is it even possible to do that?

And if it is, can you then use it as a prototype space base and also to learn about our planetary biosphere? And it was the most incredible thing to be involved in and in many ways the hardest thing to live inside there for two years. And it was a spectacular experience. And why I say it is in many ways why I'm doing what I'm doing today.

is because the experience of being embedded in my biosphere turns out to be very similar to the experience that astronaut have when they see our world from space. They see our biosphere, our planet, in the context of space, looking from the outside in. They see that incredibly thin blue line of our atmosphere illuminated against the deep darkness

the cosmos and they suddenly realize how incredible vulnerable it is and that we are all part of a singular human family that inhabits it and then living inside biosphere 2 I had that experience from the other side I was embedded in my biosphere I knew moment by moment that the oxygen that I was breathing came from the plants around me that my co2 as I was breathing out and

grew the food that we were all eating and we ate so many sweet potatoes that we turned orange. So we were becoming visibly part sweet potato. So it was a very real and visceral experience. And one of the other buyers here, Instable McCallum and I have been in business and life partners together all this time, working towards the idea of taking as many people as possible to space to have that incredible experience.

We're going to have to come back to becoming sweet potato because you literally became your environment in that capacity. And so when you were in Biosphere, I mean, did you think then like, wow, I know how to translate this experience into space travel? I mean, how did you make the...

it doesn't seem like such a leap in knowing that you, to your point, lived in the world that you were creating. But how did you come to, hey, I'm going to look at this and take a chance on space and not only that, but space travel? Because part of where you are today is not just looking at climate sustainability, but how you can make that accessible to everyone. So I love and am drawn through life by big ideas. Biosphere 2 was a really big idea.

And the fact that we could marry the concept of really caring for our planet whilst exploring space just was this hugely enormous idea. So while I was in the biosphere, I started a company with somebody on the outside, Grant Anderson and then Tabor McCallum, who was in there with me. We started a company called Paragon Space Development Corporation.

And the idea was the North Star that drew us was that we were going to be the company that helped people go to Mars. Honestly, at the time, we didn't really know what that looked like, right? I didn't even know what building a company was at the time. And so we started from the basics. And we did, and the company does today, incredible life support system technology. So that's, you know, how you control the oxygen, how you control the temperature, we

Over the intervening 30 years, it's a 30-year-old company today, which is kind of crazy for me to think about. It has technologies on every single spacecraft in operation by America today, and just recently went around on the moon on Artemis, which is incredibly exciting. But

We didn't know what we were doing when we started, right? So it's also what's incredible to think about is back then, and we're talking very early 90s. We started the company in 1993 and we were 30. And now that just seems normal. Everybody's starting a space company in their 20s and 30s. Then people thought we were completely crazy. You're like, what? What are you doing?

But we did it. And that was our North Star, was that we were going to be going to Mars. Okay. So now let's take a step back because not only did you totally do it, I mean, you had this idea. I love that you're courageously challenging the status quo. You said, you know, drawn to life by big ideas. And a lot of times thinking of big ideas, the idea itself may be one thing, but actually executing and pushing through and your latest endeavor is certainly no different. And so as you think about the boundaries,

literally earth, space, you name it, that you're pushing. As you think about this experience, as you think about everything from starting your company to planning for the first flight of Space Perspective,

you literally are not only dreaming big, you're executing big. And when you think about both dreaming and execution, that means you've got to be agile. It certainly means you're taking risks, particularly when society perhaps doesn't believe in those risks or ideas that you're putting forth. So what's your secret to, you know, knowing when the risk is worth it, or perhaps maybe you should take a step back and think about what you're suggesting?

So the big decisions that I've made in my life, I have not had to think about it at all. And it's not because it was just a snap judgment that I made on the spot. It's because everything in my life led me to that moment and I was prepared to make that decision. I remember very well the day that Tabor walked into my office and said,

what do you think about taking people to space under a giant balloon? And I literally didn't have to think about it. I'm like, that's it. That is exactly the idea we've been looking for. Because ever since the biosphere, we had been trying to find a way that made space truly accessible to people. And while rockets are unbelievably enabling,

they're not the way that thousands, hundreds of thousands of people are going to go to space just yet.

There's too many barriers whether it's you know the way people think about space. It's the right stuff It's for other people. It's you going up on a rocket with high jeans and an elephant sitting on your chest Explosion I mean all of these things that people are think about and that is not necessarily very endearing to the idea of a lot of people going to space so all of a sudden like oh, I

This is brilliant because it's gentle, it's safe, it's accessible. There isn't nearly as much CapEx involved in building a company to do that. And so it's all about preparation to be prepared to make those decisions. And here we are today getting ready to take a lot of people to space using what we now call a space balloon, which at altitude is the size of a football stadium.

And whilst that sounds crazy, it has actually been done before. Those kinds of balloons have been taken to space, not necessarily to take people to space, but to take instrumentation to space thousands of times by NASA and members of our team and others. And it's going to carry a pressurized capsule on this very gentle, initially six-hour suborbital flight to see our beautiful planet from space. A

passengers and a pilot on a six-hour journey

to see our incredible Earth from space. This will also be, as I understand it, the world's first or only carbon neutral spaceship. And so as you think about sustainable travel, so you're tying both of the idea of bringing space to the forefront of what would be accessible, as well as doing it sustainably. Again, you know, did you automatically think, well, why not? Like, why can't we look at how to do this sustainable? Because obviously, that is

first and foremost on lots of our minds these days, but as you think about where the earth is headed, where our space travel, I mean, is this the next approach is really looking at sustainable space travel? - So I think there's a lot to unpack there, right? So as I think about what is the experience that we wanna give people, it's what some call the overview effect. It's what we call the space perspective. It's a profound experience of seeing our earth in that context of space.

and understanding at a very deep visceral level that we are all a singular human family that inhabits it. When you hear astronauts talk about this,

What you will discover is that they also, from this experience, gain a burning desire to do something about it, whatever it is for them. And for most of them, it is to get more involved in some form of social or environmental issues and finding solutions for them.

And I will say that actually the same happened to Tabor me in the biosphere. When I went into the biosphere, I didn't necessarily think about our planet. I thought about going to space. And in Biosphere 2, this fire was started in me that not only did I want to go to space, but I wanted to also do something meaningful for our planet. And so as we started building space perspective, it's not only important, it is critical that

that the company walks the talk. The company has to behave that way. So we are fortuitous in that our vehicle is inherently low carbon footprint. But there is the rest of the company. And we also operate the company as a carbon neutral company. And it's really important. It would be completely anathema and totally hypocritical if we were taking people to space as a company, as a brand,

to have that incredible experience, blow their minds about this beautiful planet that we inhabit, and then we don't do anything about it ourselves. We have to. Most certainly. And as we think about growth and actually looking at how we achieve that growth,

Obviously, you've experienced both physical and mental growth when you think about what you put not only your body, but your mind through from a physical and mental stamina perspective. And something that we often talk about, obviously, is around resilience to be able to consistently perform at such a high level, not to mention the physical act of being in space, which obviously has an impact on both your physical and mental stamina. How do you build your mental fitness? So I think...

that it is very tempting as a leader to say it's all about us. And that is furthest from the truth. It's all about the team and it's about the team we build. And of course, the culture we build as well, but it's all about the team, right? So

Tabor and I have really, I mean, I'm just so thrilled with the team that we're building here at Space Perspective. Honestly, it's the best team we've ever built. I mean, they're just incredible people. Not only are they incredible at their skills within their jobs, they're also amazing human beings. And that's super important. As an example, the person who leads our balloon manufacturing did that for

for NASA, for example, has done that for over a decade, all of those incredible balloons. So is incredibly talented at manufacturing balloons. So I know that she is on board with making the best balloons in the world for our customers.

The same goes for the guy who is responsible for building the composite structure of our capsule. He did that for Crew Dragon, for Falcon 9 at SpaceX. He's the best in the world at this. And he's also an amazing human being. The same with the guy who is doing the retrieval. So we splash in the water, rather similar to you would see of Crew Dragon and other space capsules because it's really safe.

And he did it for SpaceX. And so he has a...

deep understanding of how this works, but also they're all incredibly amazing human beings. And it's super important that we all leave our egos at the door, especially when you are in an environment that is as changing as building something new. That's when it's incredibly important that we have built a culture of trust.

You know, and by that, I really do mean that we respect each other's capabilities and understandings and also that we respect each other's limitations. We're not all perfect. And that is really critical. So really being able to understand the strengths and weaknesses of the individuals within your organization and being open about it is really important, especially when you come together to make a really difficult decision. I don't

I've ever been in a situation where we've had a really capable team who's also really focused on the mission. You have to know what's important. You have to know what it is you're trying to answer and why.

Right. If you don't understand why you're trying to do something, you'll come up with the wrong decision. But as long as you know what the mission is and for us, our mission is to take as many people to space as possible safely, very safely is really critical. And then all of the decisions kind of roll in under that.

It's all about understanding your focus and your mission. And I think there's so many both personal and professional lessons in everything that you've been saying as you think about applicability between the mission, again, your crew. I love culture of trust as you think about that. One thing, maybe if we could talk a little bit about it, I know it's often difficult. You mentioned strengths and weaknesses and being open about it.

We often talk about feedback and being not only a feedback receiver, but a feedback giver and being able to do it in a constructive way that really gets to outcome-based, action-based items that people can understand and also appreciate. And so maybe can you talk a little bit about how you help each other understand strengths and weaknesses or even in that feedback cycle? Because again, maybe you do it in advance of these missions and these activities, but I also think in the moment,

it's important to remember, okay, what am I relying on this person for and how have I helped them get here? Yeah, so I think one of the things is talked a lot about in the startup world is having an environment where people can fail. So let's unpack that a minute because I actually really don't care for that phraseology because that's only part of the story.

There's no point in having a failure if you don't learn anything from it. What is critical is that you have a learning environment. And a learning environment is one where you look very starkly at the data in front of you of what happened. And then you all own your piece of it.

Whatever that is, you know, a really interesting, you know, it's very important to have sort of a listening and curious environment. You know, a really fun, interesting version of that was when we started designing the interior of our capsule.

So I had always had in my mind, oh, the most important thing here is it's about the view. So of course, we're going to have these huge windows, which we do. We're going to be flying to space, the largest windows ever flown to space. Amazing 360 degree panoramic view. So surely what we want to do is set each seat up right in front. Each person has their own window.

Isn't that going to be amazing? Well, we thankfully decided to put together a really simple mock-up so that we could actually test what this would feel like.

And as we did it, we're like, oh, if I'm sitting staring out the window, if I'm going to have a conversation with the person next to me, I literally have to look over my shoulder to talk to the person next to me. And I've now turned this into a completely solitary experience, which we're now then back to the sort of the normal way of thinking about space where, you know, I'm going there and it's me going.

No, what we find is that almost 50% of our customers, and we've got 1,200 customers now, have bought their tickets as an entire capsule. So they want to go and have this incredible experience of seeing Earth in space with their friends and their family, their loved ones.

So it's a social experience. So all of a sudden we're like, wait, we have to turn this around and turn this into a social setting, which is how we came up with this notion of the space lounge. So it's about learning.

Who cares whether we had the wrong idea in the beginning? We learned from that. And now we have the most incredible setup that we're calling a space lounge because it's super relaxed. It allows people to optimize their chats with everybody with them as they're experiencing this extraordinary experience. And of course, there is a bar and there's a loo and everything else that goes along with it as they're looking out this incredible window at our beautiful planet.

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When we're growing up, the risk taker, the rule breaker, the rebel, they're usually titled that kid or the people who end up being labeled as misbehaving or chatty or perhaps even the troublemaker. And I guess, again, I was that kid. I often recall my mom actually saved all of my report cards. And while very good grades, you always sit at the bottom. She's chatty. She's talkative. And, you know, my mom never talked.

stopped me from doing that. She's like, she just wants to learn about the world. She's like, let her keep asking and trigger that insatiable curiosity and understanding what things mean. I was always asking, well, how does this work? Or what can that do? Or how do I learn more? And so as we think about the next generation, and we have an opportunity to cultivate these characteristics of things like exploration, discovery, even skepticism, after all, when you can learn from that kid, you know, how do

we help the next generation understand? You talk a lot about not just falling down, but learning from that. Because I think when you actually learn from that problem that you've fallen down from, it's really quite magical. So what are your advice for cultivating these types of that kids as you think about that, or just even more insatiable curiosity and continuing to have that go for the next generation?

So as an example, in our company, it's really important to have a learning stance. And if you're going to do anything in innovation, you have to come at it from a point of view of learning, right? One of our mantra around here is our rate of learning. And I think that sort of carries you anywhere in life. And it's not about

you know, how many facts you know or anything like that, right? It's how we learn. Learning how to learn is actually a really interesting thing. And being curious is a critical part of that. You know, as we're thinking about how we develop this experience for our customers, I'm constantly interested to hear from them what their expectations are. I'm super curious about

how we help our customers really prepare for the space perspective, the overview effect, and really maximize that experience for them. And so I ask them all the time, every time I meet them, I ask them,

about what their expectations are, about what they're hoping for. And certainly we have very different kinds of customers, right? On the one hand, we have the customers who want to have this very meditative experience of seeing the Earth from space. And on the other side, we have customers who are like, "I want to go and celebrate with the boys!" I'm like, "Great!"

So those two won't mix very well. Note to self, we're going to have to make sure we separate those types of people. But it's super important that we are curious and we don't just have expectations. And I think the same is true for life.

You know, I think the same is true for kids. I mean, gosh, when I started out in my career, it never occurred to me that I would be the founder and co-CEO of a space balloon company whose mission it was to take thousands, hundreds of thousands of people to space. That sort of didn't enter my head. But I was incredibly curious about the world outside of my known universe. And so I kept pushing the boundaries. And here I am. And that's what I would say to anybody.

Yeah, I love it. I absolutely love it. And I love the notion of being curious about everybody else's world. So is there something else that's not in yours and continuing to ask? And again, it's what predominantly keeps me going when I think about all the things that we have to learn that we've yet to learn so far. So I hope that as people listen, they not only stoke their own curiosity, but we continue to keep curious kids and adults alike moving in the world. And so when you think about gaining your

your own insight and visibility and learning. And we've talked about leadership, we've talked about teamwork and collaboration, talked about crisis, we've talked about when the world is stable, let alone when it's in a crisis. While any one person I always believe has immense power, I believe many have immense impact. And as we think about this notion of collaboration,

It wouldn't be collaboration without mentioning the importance of diversity. And obviously, as we think about that, diversity could be everything from thought, background, culture, upbringing. I mean, there's so many ways that we can look at diversity, but we also know that it's a force multiplier. So when you put together different ways of thought, it's a way to enable, especially when you're thinking about complex problem solving, which obviously you've surrounded yourself around and led through. So when you think about that,

How do you enable others to think about, again, kind of not only diversity, but like, wow, I want to get into space. So as a young child, you had said, you know, you didn't envision yourself being here, but how do you help others think about how they could do something that maybe they hadn't put themselves in, particularly when we start talking about things that obviously have to do with technology or engineering, but even just thinking of something that you never thought you could do from a diverse perspective? Yeah.

Yeah, I love that. So, okay, look, there's so much in there. So first of all, let's say it goes without saying that I think diversity of all sorts, as you mentioned, is critical to innovation, right? You've got to have a diversity of thought. Otherwise, it's so hard to imagine how you're really going to come up with something truly innovative and different. And that has to be constant.

So there's that. And then as we think about who, as another example of diversity, right?

Who can get involved in space? So I think until now, people have thought, oh, it's really only for rocket scientists and engineers and people focused on the STEM careers. And certainly that's critical, right? For all of us in this industry, we need more people coming into this of diverse backgrounds.

And not only from aerospace, but from other industries coming into the space world as well, because that also sort of brings fertile thought into our industry. But now we are also beginning to see, like with us, we're a consumer-facing company. So...

We're bringing in people into our company who have had really significant careers in marketing and content development and creation and things like that. Right. The person who stood up the Red Bull Media House, those kinds of people are able to come into the space community. And as I think about the people that we're going to be flying to space with,

That excites me tremendously because we want to have a really broad range of people flying to space, right? So whether it's artists, writers, musicians, leaders of all sorts, students, teachers, you know, people that can go to space and experience this differently, right?

Take that experience and communicate it differently. And that's hugely powerful. And, you know, I'm very excited about the notion that that will actually really have an astounding ripple effect across society. Yeah. And I think when you start to think about all the different ways that it's not just a type or a person, when you start to add in the different ways that you can look at it, consumer, media,

the touch and feel of the whole thing when you think about what is the experience, how do I want to see it, how do I want to hear it, how do I want to feel the experience, because obviously there's also a physical impact. There are so many different venues, let alone, again, medical impact. I mean, there's all kinds of ways that you can see that this really truly isn't just

an aerospace view. I mean, obviously that's critical to being successful, but there are so many other ways to think about it because you are expanding the population. It's not just the astronaut as would have been historical that's viewing it. It's the people inside the space lounge that are experiencing it. It's those on the ground watching it to see, well, do I want to be next? And so I think that

lack of diversity that perhaps used to exist, you're creating a whole new set of opportunities. So it's not just getting a diverse set of thinking, it's actually expanding and creating a new supply, if you will, of what needs to happen in terms of tackling these very challenging problems. And so

What do you say when someone's around you like, "This is just the hardest problem. I'm not sure how we can get there." How do you help someone perhaps dig into their resilience and grit or get creative to think about solving those really challenging problems? So I think there's a couple of things, right? I think the first is you do have to take a moment occasionally and go, "Okay, now remind me why I'm doing this. Why are we doing this?" Yes, occasionally taking a moment. And that's really important.

And if you can't find your why, well, maybe you shouldn't be doing it. But why is critically important. And I think we've talked several times now about the why we're doing space perspective. That's very clear. And I get up every morning and I have to pinch myself to remind myself that we're actually doing this. This is amazing. And then it's also a muscle that you have to build, right?

Right. I think, you know, don't judge other people's

Don't judge your insides by other people's outsides. That's an incredibly important thing to remember because, you know, especially in our social media world, everybody is putting on their best face and it looks like everybody's having an amazing day. Oh, and you have to know that a lot of them are not, right? And you have to know that a lot of people are withering inside as they're doing it, whatever it is they're doing. And you have to get comfortable with the idea

That you can feel fear at the same time as doing something bold. If you are not feeling any fear whatsoever, either you're a human being who doesn't have fear, which is also not good because you will crush and burn eventually, or you're not pushing yourself.

And you're just going to stagnate. So there's this real interesting point right in the middle. That's the sweet spot where you need a little fear because it pushes you and you have to get really comfortable with that.

Could not agree with you more. And I am honestly, you know, as you think about fear, as we think about comfort, we've talked a lot about teamwork and accessibility. So now we're going to go into what I always love. I mean, you and I think can probably keep chatting. I'm so enamored by just the amount of, I'll call it dynamic fearlessness that you have in terms of solving our problems and thinking about our opportunities that we have to truly work

change the way that we view ourselves, the way that we view others, and the way that we view this earth. So again, for that, I sincerely, as a person, thank you for that. And also as a leader in this industry, thank you for leading yourself and many others on this journey. And so we get to what I'll call the lightning round questions. If there is one myth that you'd like to tackle or unmake, what would it be? I would like people to understand how critical space is to our lives.

The other day I was talking with somebody and they were like, "I understand why we need satellites. I mean, I have GPS on my phone."

I mean, I did hold a straight face, but inside I'm like, dude, where do you think that GPS comes from? Space impacts our lives every minute of every day. We can't use an ATM without relying on some space asset. And then if I think about taking people to space, I mean, that is also critical because I think having, and imagine if we had a teacher in every school who had experienced the

the space perspective, the overview effect and all that comes with that.

What an amazing benefit that would be for kids to have that. Absolutely agree with that. All right. So my next lightning round, which is kind of interesting because you are always pushing yourself outside of your own comfort zone. I mean, just literally living in a dome, going into space, thinking of these opportunities. But if there's something that you can think of, like, what is the next thing? How do you think of the next thing? What's Jane's next thing in terms of pushing herself outside of her own comfort zone?

Okay, let's be clear. I get up every morning to think about what I need to do today to make sure that tomorrow we're taking as many people to space as possible. So I am very focused on the day today, not what I could be doing next. And I think that's super important. And I also get to get up every day and remind myself how amazing it is that I'm doing this.

So amazing. So amazing. All right. If you could be anywhere today, um,

Other than with space, where would you be? One of my happy places is diving. So I love to go underwater. You know, I've been really blessed to have been to amazing places. You know, the Red Sea some years ago, and it was absolutely spectacular. Diving with whale sharks, diving with enormous manta rays, the most beautiful coral reefs. I just think that's amazing. You're down in a place that is so alien to us.

You know, we don't belong there. And it is so beautiful and astounding. And peaceful. I would add and peaceful. It's probably one of the most peaceful experiences I've ever experienced. Just very peaceful.

You are in one with yourself while still imagining and seeing such colors and even sometimes such darkness. It's an unbelievable experience to think about being in that capacity. So I share in your luxury of diving in that experience. All right, two last questions. Since we're focused on today and the thing that you could say today, what would you say to everyone today listening? Come to space with us because it's,

It is going to be the most incredible experience you could ever have in your life. And you can then come back and do something amazing with that experience. All right. One not on the list, but I'm going to ask as a follow up to that. What do you say to the people who are scared or nervous about coming to space? Oh, well, you haven't been in a space lounge yet. Yeah.

I love it. I love it. All right. Our closing question. If you could say anything to your younger self to prepare for anything that you've witnessed in this world, what would you say to yourself? Hmm.

I would say do you to the best of your ability. Well, I certainly appreciate your time today, Jane, and I am going to take so many learnings and appreciation for you, which I had such admiration going into this conversation and I leave even more enlightened post it. So I just want to thank you for your time today. Thank you. It was super fun. Really appreciate it.

Jane Poynter, entrepreneur, author, and visionary, is a true disruptor at the forefront of change, not just in space travel, but our entire societal ecosystem. Reimagining how we view the earth and humanity as we know it, while overcoming misconceptions and orthodoxies that all too often hold others back, including the ability to feel fear at the same time of feeling bold. Thank you, Jane, for joining me today to discuss your journey and helping to inspire others on their own paths.

Lead Through Disruption is produced by FASCO Works in collaboration with Deloitte Cyber and Strategic Risk. Our show was produced by Avery Miles and Matt Toder, as well as editor Nicholas Torres. We'll be back with more incredible stories from disruptors who are positively impacting change in business, culture, and society. We hope their journeys filled with curiosity, courage, and resilience inspire your own as they have countless others. I'm your host, Deb Golden. Thanks for listening.