Why people are ditching Tinder . . . and falling in love with lab-grown diamonds
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I'm Yasmin Gagne. I'm Josh Christensen. And this is Most Innovative Companies.

On today's episode, Fast Company staff writer Jess Brzezinski. Dating apps are not shiny and new and fun anymore, and they actually kind of suck. Lab-grown diamonds. Almost 50% of Gen Z recognizes that a lab-grown diamond is real, versus 88% of baby boomers view it as artificial. And as always, keeping tabs. But now, you can break up with people with a pizza, which is great, and get one for yourself. But first, here's the download.

The news you need to know this week in the world of business and innovation. Snap's stock plummeted last week after the company reported its Q4 results. Snap's ad revenue is slowing while rivals like Meta and Google are showing strong growth.

The news follows last week's announcement that Snap will cut 10% of its workforce. Do you use Snap? Snapchat? Not since 2014, and honestly, not a time I want to remember in my life too much. Yeah, it's, uh, the only thing I remember about Snapchat, really, is that, like, kids were buying drugs off of it. Yeah.

And that was the big news story for a while. A friend of mine who's a middle school teacher told me a couple years ago that a lot of the playground fights that she breaks up start on Snap, so they don't necessarily know exactly what happened, which is really funny. That is very funny. Ozempic and Manjaro were just the beginning. Researchers from J.P. Morgan are predicting that the global market for GLP-1 drugs could reach $71 billion by 2032.

Novo Nordisk and Eli Lilly are drug makers that have dominated the market so far. But smaller pharmaceutical companies are looking to make their own alternatives. I am sure this will not be the last time we talk about a Zempik on the pod. I wonder if this is going to drive down the price as well. More competition, lower prices. It has to. I mean, it was sitting off at about $1,000 a month for a while there, so it's got to come down now. So maybe you can...

stab yourself in the stomach for a reasonable price. Yeah.

There has been a lot of pessimism about electric vehicles, but recent analysis says that the market is set to grow. According to forecasts from Auto Pacific, Cox, and S&P Global Mobility, we could see anywhere from 20% to more than 30% growth this year, despite hurdles like lack of charging infrastructure and the news from this past January that Ford's sales of EVs dropped.

And speaking of vehicles, Uber posted its first profitable year since going public in 2019. The company saw a profit of $1.89 billion and a revenue of over $37 billion. The last time Uber was profitable for a full year was 2018. I don't know why, but I stopped using Uber and exclusively used Lyft. I think there was something a few years ago where something was bad about Uber that caused some sort of protest. Was worse than Lyft?

Yeah, I don't know. I don't remember. Isn't it weird how social trends... Yeah, no, I know what you mean. I think there was like, weren't they trying to repeal some kind of measure in California? But then Lyft must have been part of that too. Yeah, I'm sure it was. It's the kind of, I don't know, cognitive dissonance of selective outrage.

Totally. Yeah. Anyways, I like Lyft. Lyft is fine. And finally, Disney is investing $1.5 billion in Fortnite maker Epic Games. CEO Bob Iger announced the investment last Wednesday. The company plans to launch, as he put it, a games and entertainment universe.

That's already what Disney is. I mean, what else do you describe the Country Bear Jamboree as, if not a universe of games and entertainment? Iger also says the move is because of the company's popularity with Gen Z, Gen Alpha, and Millennials. And in fictional news, Bob Iger then punctuated the announcement by doing random Fortnite dances for 30 minutes to try to ingratiate themselves with the youths of America. And that's the news you need to know today.

So Josh, what's the worst date you've ever been on? I mean, everybody has like awkward dates that they go on. So the first date I ever went on as a, I think I was 14 years old. It was the summer of 2004. Damn, that's young. Yeah, I mean, it was innocent. I took, you know, we went to a

a movie. It was this girl named Katie. We went to Catwoman starring Halle Berry. And in the movies are terrible, especially first date, but it's like, yes, you can't talk. Exactly. And what else are you going to do as a child? So we met at the movie theater and we go in and like,

I'm sitting there the whole time and like making up my cards to do, you know, that move where you just do the up and over like arm around, which is not comfortable in movie chip theater seats. That's true. But when I finally got up the cards to do that, I kind of misjudged the trajectory and I elbowed her in the head.

Okay, it wasn't like a hard... How did Katie react? I mean, she didn't say anything. I'm pretty sure I just... It was more of like a drag over the head than like a straight up bow to the face. But in my mind, I like nailed her. But I just continued with the move and got the arm around. And then we just did not talk for the rest of the time. And then...

we left and that was it. And I was mortified. That was my first date ever. Well, I love that. It's so cute. Actually. Do you have any bad date stories that are safe for air? Yeah. I would say the worst date I went on. I cannot talk about on air one time when I was in college, I wrote for our college newspaper and I covered an event that the college Republicans hosted. And, um,

this guy from College Republicans asked me out and he was really good looking. He's on the rowing team. He was so hot. He's like kind of like famously attractive on campus. So I was pretty excited. He was a couple years older than me. And we went to Starbucks and he like kept talking about how much he loved corporations. He'd be like, yeah, I love Starbucks. Actually, my favorite coffee shop in Manhattan. I also love McDonald's. I was just sitting there like

Wow, that's so interesting. Did college Republicans not turn you off immediately? Well, this was like... I think the thing you have to remember is that, yeah, it's a turnoff for sure, but I was also like, this was pre-Trump, so I was kind of like... Oh, so this was like a Mitt Romney...

Yeah. Yeah. Like a Bain capital Republican. Exactly. That was exactly the vibe. So it was like bad, but not necessarily like immediately racist. Yeah. It was a lot of like small government fiscal. Exactly. Yeah. It was like, we're not going to talk about like the dog whistling. We're not going to talk about like how like racist and homophobic and how much we hate trans people as it is now. Exactly. So I would say it was, um, it was a,

bad, but mostly weird. But I think it illustrates the common thing that happens on any bad date, which is when you hear yourself talking and you're like, why am I so boring right now? You know what I mean? When you can hear yourself...

That sounds so obnoxious. That's what I think every time we record this podcast. Same, same, same. But there's a reason why we're talking about bad dates. There is a reason we're talking about bad dates. We're about to hit the end of peak dating season with Valentine's Day this week.

And what better way to commemorate that than to chat about the state of the dating industry and dating apps? Here to tell us more is Fast Company staff writer Jess Brzezinski. Welcome to the show, Jess. Hey, how are you? I'm good. How are you doing on this Valentine's Day or Valentine's Week, rather? You know, it's the time for self-love, self-care. Yeah.

That's a good answer. Yeah, right. Let's start by going over what is called this year's peak dating season. Why and how is this the peak dating season? Like, what does that mean? Right. So the busy season really started January 5th, which is known as Dating Sunday, the Super Bowl. By who? Literally by who? Marketing. But there is data to back it up.

which I'll get into. But if you really think about it, we're coming off the holidays. We were just doing Thanksgiving and for some of us Christmas and all of those other times with family at home. And we were being asked, are you in a relationship? When are you getting married? Are you getting a

grandkids, whatever. And then we're seeing also people on Instagram and social media, you know, getting engaged and getting married and all of that. So we come home and then New Year's hits and we think, wow, this is a fresh start that this is the year that I will find love. I will have children or whatever.

get married. Um, and for some reason that carries us into Valentine's day. I feel like it's probably the same trajectory of, you know, the new year's resolutions lasting for six weeks or so. Give us some numbers to attach to this. So we have some data from Tinder during the season. There are 11.4 million more messages sent and then people are updating, um,

more than 500 bios every minute. What? That's actually crazy. And it's somehow kind of dark. How many quotes from the office are there? Exactly. Right. How many people are buying margaritas for the whole table or whatever? It's

espresso martinis people are switching you know like you know their like section like i love to read i love to travel they're like maybe i should put travel before read because those are like the only two hobbies yeah i also i don't have data on this but i think that i was surprised that it was this time and not like the traditional cuffing season because that's you know

We're getting into the fall. People want to go apple picking with someone. Like you're not traveling as much. Wait, that is cuffing? Cuffing season is the autumn? I've never actually known this. I haven't been single for a long time. So I have very little insight into when these different seasons are. So this is all, this is like, I feel like David Attenborough right now. It's a sport, honestly. Like you build up your roster and you make cuts up until...

It's like the NFL team where you have cut day. I just really want you bring them into your office. You're like Keith, listen, you've put in a lot of effort, but you're not going into cuffing season. I'm sorry. Yeah.

So it's been a really rough year for companies behind dating apps. I know Match Group basically owns all of them. But tell us, first of all, why it's been such a rough year and also quantify that for us. Right. So, I mean, it's a really strange time because we were in the prime spot for change when it came to dating apps because of COVID. Like, daters were indoors and online and there really wasn't a way to go out to a bar and meet people. Like, even if you were doing the outside stuff,

bars, you weren't allowed to interact with other tables, at least in New York. Yeah. A friend of mine kept taking girls out to get ice cream, like in the park, but it was like the dead of winter. Freezing and eating some soft serve. Right. It's really all you could do. And it would take like five calls to feel safe enough to get to that point even. And you would like wear a mask almost the whole time, like lower it for your ice cream. It was weird. But obviously like dating apps were just being used so

So much. And like they were a cultural staple before then, but I would say the use was just unprecedented. Yeah. So at the time apps were introducing like audio and video components so that we wouldn't have to give out our phone numbers or whatever. You could essentially face call within the dating app. Oh, I didn't know that.

And now that people have essentially recovered from the pandemic and gotten out more, I think they're just really burnt out from spending all the time on their phones and online and on the apps. So companies were trying to introduce these in-person events. Bumble did events with SoulCycle where you would take like a Polaroid photo of yourself or something and...

You would see everyone and like chat and give out your numbers at the end. And that didn't really take off. We don't really know how to socialize because of the pandemic. Yeah, totally. Right. So we need the apps, but I think we're kind of jaded. And I think...

that investors are also seeing that. So, you know, shares a match group, which as you mentioned, owns literally every single app except for Bumble. That's down like 27% from a year ago, the shares. Bumble is down almost half. So it's been a

really rough time. So we've seen a lot of apps that have sort of tried to optimize or expand in a couple ways. There's some, I would say, you know, you just gave the example of being able to call people within an app like Tinder, of adding sort of super likes or premium tiers. There have been others like Bumble who have tried to expand by basically growing the services that they offer. So saying you might be able to match and make friends or match and, you know, meet your next boss.

Tell me about how these apps are changing. So for Bumble, they really want to tackle the loneliness crisis epidemic. I wouldn't say Bumble business is the largest thing, but there is a big focus on Bumble BFF, which, you know, you go and meet friends. Is that working? Yeah.

I know people who have made friends through it. Like I moved to San Francisco about a year ago and I knew people who knew people, which is how I got into friend groups here. But those friend groups connected because of Bumble BFF originally, like a few years ago. All right.

So it's been around for a while. Yeah, it has. Yeah, and then Bumble also has been acquiring some other companies. So they have one that strengthens relationships so that you don't have to leave the Bumble ecosystem once you're in a relationship. You don't have to delete the app and say, I'm done. It's a way to monetize relationships.

your entire life, I would say. Match Group, they've been testing a lot with different games and in-app experiences just to keep people interested. There definitely is less of a push on in-app video calls. I believe it was Hinge that actually sunsetted that feature just because

Nobody was... Nobody was using... Nobody was FaceTiming within Hinge. Didn't they have like a whole marketing push behind that app too? I think I remember seeing ads for Hinge really being like video, we can have virtual dates sort of thing. Probably a few months or a year into the pandemic that occurred because that was...

the biggest thing because they thought, you're home, you need to be like FaceTiming people or calling people you know. That was incredible. And now no one's using it. How have premium tiers worked out? We're definitely seeing more of a push into premium. So Tinder specifically, they just did a big kind of like reorganization of their pricing models on

They didn't feel they were charging users enough for the product. So they raised prices, things like that. Something that I would say we should definitely be keeping an eye on is the rise of micropayments.

people paying, they don't want to pay $50 a month for a subscription to Hinge, but they would be willing to pay, you know, $10 a week to boost their profile so that it's seen by more people or pay to send more likes to more people. Definitely in this environment, you know, people are really conscious of what they're spending. It feels easier to swallow, you know, a $2 to $10 payment than a $30 subscription. Although

Although, man, taking out your wallet or clicking that, like, pay for it button for every small thing just seems like so... That's the pits. You know what I'm saying? Just push some lines, too. Yeah.

It doesn't feel good. I know people who have paid to boost their profile and they've been successful with it. I remember a few years ago, I had one of my friends. I think you pay $10 and for 30 minutes, you would get your profile seen by more people. And she was like, look, 60 people like me or something. Yeah, it's a small thing, but then you see the numbers go up. That's all it takes for these guys out here. Yeah.

30 minutes is like a drop of blood in the water. It's just sharks. So it's kind of like a similar feature to like boosting posts on social media almost. Like you can boost like your views on a Facebook post or an X post or a TikTok video. So it's like that, but for yourself.

I'm curious if you boosted your profile and then you met the love of your life and you were talking to them after 10 years together. Or like, do you disclose that you boosted your profile to them? I would want to know, I think. But like, would any of us, let's say, let's put all of us in that situation. No chance I would do that. I think I'd disclose it. Also, I think they'd assume it because what other chance would I have? Yeah.

Josh, come on. Don't say that. No. I never had, I mean, I wasn't on the apps for that long. I was like, I had a little bit of Tinder time, but then I started, I've been with my wife since early, since 2016. Yeah.

So it was a very like short period. Josh is like, I love my wife. Yeah. I love my wife. I don't go on the apps. But like, you know what I mean? Like there was like a short time. If you need friends. I have enough friends. Thank you very much. I only need six friends in my life. Just so I have an all-in-air at my funeral. Yeah.

Are there any apps that you see as ascendant that are doing sort of better than others for whatever reason? I think that Hinge has really taken on like the golden child position of Match Group. You know, obviously Tinder. Why do you think that is? Right off the bat, they had a different strategy than what Tinder's was, which was, you know, Tinder's was really location for the moment. You know, you would see it where

Whereas Hinge was designed to be deleted. Like you would find a relationship through it. So people I think maybe felt like that was a bit more acceptable to be like, yeah, I met someone on Hinge, whatever, you know, like that was their intention. Tinder's model is just Grindr for straight people. Like that's...

Any app that gives you like the location down to like the tenth of a mile is a little much. Grindr is like literally feet. It gets down to the feet for you, which is obviously serving a very particular like market and type of demographic and is very successful on there. But I personally thought you were going to say the right stuff is the Ascendant app. What is the right stuff?

You haven't seen this. It's the right wing dating app. It's like the MAGA dating app. It's funded by Peter Thiel. It's, yeah. Really? It's the future of dating. The problem is, is they can't get enough women to sign up for it. Women don't have to pay to use it. They just have men who have to, like men have to pay. That's so funny.

And women are always... It's like a shitty club. Yeah, it is. I was reading about Tinder's expansion into India, and apparently that's an issue that they have in the country, where women are just not joining the app. So the population is so skewed. It's just like tons of dudes and like three women. That's San Francisco hinge right there. And still you're single, Jess. No, I'm just kidding. I mean, listen, there's only so many Patagonia vests that you can look at in a day. Yeah.

you're like oh software engineer that's so interesting flip flops you're obsessed with longevity like Joe Rogan okay

I think the worst app I've seen out there is I have a couple friends on Raya, which is like, it's like the elite. It's like everybody's like an influencer. It's supposed to be for like celebrities and like security, but it mostly ends up just being like hedge fund bros. Right. Either that or it's like guys from Europe who are like, I'm a creative strategist and it's like so unclear what they do. You know? It's not, that's not a real thing.

Right. The appeal of Riot has gone so far down because now they're just letting like non-celebrities in. And it's expensive. Like you have to. It's not a freemium model. Like you have to pay to be on it. You have to pay to be on it? Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Every month you have to pay. I forget how much it is, but it's like I was talking about this with someone at Fast Company video team the other day. I was like, it's really expensive. It's like ridiculous.

Really? Maybe $40? I forget how much it is. I can't remember. Yeah. Right. Because they also don't do marketing. They don't do press. They're elusive and cool. So we just don't know much about them. And they kick people off the app if they screenshot and share.

pictures of other users really shit my friend who's on it is um a peloton yoga instructor and she was like it's actually probably the safest place for me because like as a peloton yoga instructor on like tinderware people recognize you and then send you the most disgusting messages ever i was like yeah it's so dark actually

I think that's just being a straight woman. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't think you need to be a Peloton yoga instructor. Yeah, it's true. I want to ask a little bit about some of the sort of newer dating apps or solutions that people are finding to solve for dating app fatigue, which it sounds like everyone basically has.

What are those? We always have seen a lot of these smaller startup dating apps pop up. There's Soon in San Francisco. Thursdays is in a few cities. I believe that started in London. And that's where you can, all of your matches expire. All of your conversations expire every Thursday. I actually like that a lot. And then they set up in your city an event where you go, you show them that you have the app downloaded. And then you just like, it's like a singles mixer. They lost me.

Mixers sound terrible. Yeah. I was on an app, background here, I was on Bumble and Tinder for a day and a half until I deleted them. Yeah. After me and my ex broke up, before I met my husband, I was like, and it was because the idea of filling out a bio about myself was so daunting that I gave up. But, which is like, that's like a me problem. You know what I mean? It's like stupid. You're also a writer. Shut up, Josh. There's a reason I have the podcast. Yeah.

Literally can't do anything. But I am glad that I came of age before dating apps were like everywhere, everywhere, everywhere. But past the point where things like speed dating were a thing and mixers. You know what I mean? It's crazy that speed dating is back. Oh.

Oh, yeah. That's not true. That can't be true. It is true. Speed dating and matchmaking is back in mixers. I think my editor, David, told me one of his jokes was like, what are the seven most terrifying words in the English language? And it's speed dating on the Upper West Side. I don't know if that's seven words, but I thought that was a good joke. Right.

I don't know whether or not this more like boutique experience of that, like the smaller apps could actually take on a Tinder or a Hinge or a Bumble, you know, that have millions of users and so much money behind it. Some of those apps started out as more niche things than ended up expanding, right? Like Hinge's whole thing for a long time was like you had to have Facebook friends in common. Yeah, that was the thing. And then, you know, acquired by Match Group and really just

Yeah, exactly. Like they all sort of end up doing the same stuff. Right. I also think there's a lot of quote unquote niche dating apps that like are kind of dire. I'm thinking of like The League, which I knew. Also a match group company. Also a match group company. You had to like go to a certain school, I think. You had to like go to an Ivy League school. I think that was like originally the thing. It was.

It was like, you had to be very intellectual, very like business oriented. I think you had to share your LinkedIn to get on. Like it was crazy. Yeah, I know. It's really embarrassing. And the thing that always gets to me about apps is I feel like what you want is never what you think you want. You know, the person you end up with is not the person you think you're going to end up with.

I feel like if I was on an app, I'd make a bunch of like bad choices. And especially because it's so gamified, like you are getting person to person. You're just like, yes or no judging. I will say that apps are trying to make profiles really more, I don't like experiential, like holistic. So they're trying to add a lot of video things, voice profiles.

prompts, better questions. That's also going back to like an old thing. Speaking of like speed dating coming back, dating, well, obviously you're like dating classifieds way back in the day or obviously then when the internet started, you had like Craigslist stuff and misconnections. But like you would have like dating videos where you'd literally make like a VHS tape of yourself and it would get mailed around to different people. Like it's just the same stuff repackaged with new technology.

Well, but let's talk about some of that new technology. How is AI working with these dating apps? AI is, I would say, like all of these companies are really betting on AI as the future. So there's different ways that they can use it. So obviously like a big part has already been the algorithm, who it puts on your screen, and then they do some stuff with trust and safety. So, you know, automatically weeding out

like explicit pictures or messages or people who are problematic, you know, creepy. Now they can, you know, do even more with it. They can reenact

really personalized who you're seeing and who they think you'll be matching with so that you're not getting so many people that you really won't be into and you become so jaded that you don't want to use the apps anymore. Yeah, but what if somebody's on there and they're like, no one would want to match with them? What do you do with that? I feel like there's...

There's someone for everyone. Yeah, right. Like millions of people are on these apps, you know, like I'll deserve some love. Yeah.

On the consumer side, people will be using AI for selecting the best pictures for your profile or rearranging them in the best, like most scientific way because they have the data on what works, what people will click on. So if you know, like, as you said, you didn't want to come up with a bio or a profile. An AI bio? That sucks. Right. That makes me really sad, actually. It could do it and it could probably like get you good numbers. Yes.

Do you really think, I mean, as a unfortunately very straight woman, do you really think any man spends time reading bios? I don't. I don't believe that. I just, there's no chance my now husband, I didn't meet him on an app, but like, there's no chance he would read bios. I know that for a fact. Granted, your husband did famously drunkenly buy a cat in a parking lot off Craigslist.

So I don't know if reading comprehension is going to be... Sorry, Lou. I've never actually... If you're going on a date with someone, like I feel like they'll read the bios to prepare and be like, oh, you like hiking, whatever. I don't know.

But yeah, I think it depends on what the intent is there. That makes sense. You know, I once asked my husband, I was like, what was your Tinder profile like? And he was like, no bio, but I had the Colombian and American flag. And there was a photo of me wearing a cowboy hat. And I was like, you're nothing like that. You're like basically catfishing women. Also, that's insane. Oh, God. Yeah. Anyway, so...

So Tinder and Bumble both have new CEOs. Tell us what that could mean for those companies. You know, investors, I think we're signaling for a long time that we were going to be in a new era. We needed a shakeup. You know, stocks were going down. So Whitney Wilford, who had founded Bumble and also, you know, was part of creating Tinder, she left as CEO. She is now the executive chair. And they brought on Lydianne Jones, who was the CEO of Slack. And she is huge.

huge on artificial intelligence, next generation technology, things like that for creating better profiles, better experiences for users. And then also really big on using that technology for safety, which Bumble's whole mission is like championing women's safety, privacy, security, things like that, so that you're not getting explicit messages or things that you

really just didn't consent to getting. And then Tinder also brought in a new CEO in January and she was COO, chief operating officer for I believe a year and a half before she came in as the leader.

And it's been part of this just huge turnaround for the brand. You know, Tinder's really a legacy brand. They're still the biggest brand and match group. You know, it's worldwide. It's such a name, but they've been, I would say, in trouble for a bit. You know, it's hard to grow users at the millions and it's hard to really get money from these users, especially when it's

a free app. So Bernard Kim, who's the CEO of Match Group, so the parent company, he really enacted this like rightening of the ship. Faye Isotoluno, who's the new CEO, is really going to be a big part of that strategy. She has been big on building also with AI. Everybody's like really gung-ho on AI. Everyone's an AI company. Right. Right.

Given all these changes, what are some of the things we should be keeping our eye on? So, I mean, I think we should keep looking at how these companies are monetizing their services and if consumers are willing to pay these costs. I don't know if someone's going to be paying $500 a month for Hint.

or if they're going to be doing these micropayments. Also, whether or not they're compelling enough to get this continued growth and momentum. We said AI like I think 800 times in the past hour. So I'm just going to see what happens with that, what's implemented, what does and doesn't work because obviously some things will fail. You know, I'm curious whether or not these smaller dating apps are going to take off and whether or not they'll be able to compete

against the larger players. And if we just all leave dating apps at some point, I don't know. Like this is not a new phenomenon that people are burnt out. I remember that in 2016, there was an article in The Atlantic that was like dating apps are not shiny and new and fun anymore. And they actually kind of suck. So it's been eight years. But like the alternative is trying to meet people in person, which is a crapshoot, right? Right.

Like, very, very hard to make conversation with a rando. I really believe this. I think that dating in general is just really hard. And, you know, with the apps, you're just getting more and more people put in front of you. So you just have more and more numbers. And obviously, like more and more people that you're going to have bad experience, like

Not bad, but maybe not like perfect experiences. It's just a numbers thing. Like you're now seeing hundreds of people. Whereas if you were meeting someone at the bar, you know, you would talk to maybe three people every week. Like it's really just, I don't know. It's like a deluge of people. So of course.

going to like really add to that. Before we go, do you have any fun tips or hacks for our users this peak season? Hinge just put out a report on how Gen Z is dating. And one of like the biggest takeaways was that Gen Z, which is these apps are also really targeting their Gen Z users. Millennials, I'm so sorry, but you're out. Sad. Of course. But the Gen Z users, you know, they're so afraid of rejection and being perceived as cringe.

which I fully get. Grow up. Well, they gave a lot of advice on focus on whether or not you actually like this person or if you're just sad that they don't like you and is it actually the...

So a lot of like, I think internal work there. So I think I thought that was a good report. If you're a hinge user and you're just like, I want to walk into the sea. I am not getting any matches. Like nobody's being shown to me that I like if I'm sending out hundreds of like and no likes and no one likes me back. You can do this thing called a fresh start. And so you go to delete the app. This is my friend found this because she went to go delete the app.

And she was like, I'm not satisfied with my experience. And it said, hey, do you want a fresh start? And, you know, you essentially burn everything to the ground except for your profile and then the people you're currently matched with. So if you're like you had been chatting with a person and you're like, you know, like I don't like

I don't know if it's going to go anywhere with them, but I don't want to delete them entirely. You can still keep them. So you fresh start the algorithm. It entirely starts over. And then people say, you know, that gives them better matches and more matches, which I personally think is just because Hinge wants you to have a good experience after you said, you know, like,

I delete the app like it wants to keep you happy. But that's something that, you know, if you're a hinge user, that could be good. But I also think, you know, like we got to diversify. Like, I think it's good to be on the apps, but also we should be speed dating or talking to people in coffee shops.

or going out to the bars. Like we shouldn't be putting all of our eggs in one basket because then we will eventually hate that basket and we will think that that is the problem. Right. That makes sense. Yeah, it's like dating is horrible anyway. It's not like apps made it worse. It just has always sucked.

Right. It's hard because, you know, like I think we're tired of the apps, but I think we're actually just probably tired of the dating and the constantly trying. I am curious, have you seen any migration to apps like Field? You know what I mean? Like how do sort of these like alternative relationship apps factor into all this? I feel like I know a good amount of people who are on Field. What is Field just like?

Bro, you are old and you don't read my articles. I am three years older than you, yes. That's it. Honestly, that's old enough to not know what is field. Okay, so what is field? Explain to grandpa.

It's more of an alternative relationship app. So whether you're into like polyamory or like ethically non-monogamous relationships and you're seeking, you know... It was a threesome app and now it's just like alternative stuff. Right. All right. Okay. Like very like king friendly, I think, you know. But...

I think we're going to see the traditional apps really lean into this type, these like alternative relationships because Gen Z is one of the most fluid generations and they're like, they're vocal about that, you know, Hinge and Tinder and Bumble and everyone want to keep these Gen Z users. And so we're going to start seeing more of a less like traditional, traditional offering or at least an ability to, you know, change settings and really explore. Yeah.

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. We're going to take a quick break now, followed by my conversation with Angara co-founders Aditi and Ankur Daga and Brilliant Earth CEO Beth Gerstein. Beth, I want to start with you, though, and I want to ask what may seem like an obvious question to some people, but was totally not obvious to me until a couple of months ago. What is the difference between a natural diamond and a lab-grown diamond?

Sure. I'm happy to explain that. Natural diamonds are diamonds that come from the earth. They are formed in the earth's crust billions of years ago. They are mined, cut, and polished. Lab diamonds are actually created in a lab-controlled environment. They're optically, chemically, physically identical to natural diamonds, but the grow process is different. Right. And how they were born is different.

So like if you showed me a diamond today to the naked eye and to most machines, they're basically the same, right? That's correct. Even trained gemologists cannot differentiate a lab and a natural diamond. Ankur and Aditi, I want to sort of ask you about this. Over the past two to three years, we've seen an expansion.

explosion in lab-grown diamond sales. And I think it started with a 2018 FTC ruling, right? Tell me about that. Yeah, so the FTC ruling essentially said a lab-grown diamond is a diamond because it is chemically, physically, optically the same. And all of a sudden, that lent so much credibility to lab-grown.

Prior to that, you know, how were they allowed to be marketed? What does this FTC ruling mean? So prior to that, they were really looked at as synthetics, which is, you know, a fake equivalent, almost like a CZ or even moissanite. And all of a sudden, after the ruling, they became at the same level as natural. Does that mean that companies can now call them diamonds? Is that fair to say? As long as they use created or lab in front of them. Oh, they have to? Yes, correct. Okay.

This is all about transparency to the customer, making sure that you're really clear about, is it lab-created? Is it natural? I think the difference is, is it a quote-unquote fake diamond? No, it's not. It's a real diamond that was created in a lab. This episode is actually coming up. It'll come out close to Valentine's Day. And I'm curious, obviously, I'm guessing some listeners may be planning on proposing to someone.

Diamonds are top of mind. I want to get your takes. Do you think it's cool to propose to someone and not let them know the diamond is lab grown? Just be like, here's a diamond ring? Or is that a faux pas? So I think transparency, as Beth was just talking about, is critical. And you know, honestly, she's going to find out anyways. You might as well be upfront. Why?

Why do you think she's going to find out anyways? I think, you know, if you're giving a three carat stone and people are reading about lab grown in newspapers, they can test it. And you don't want your relationship to go under scrutiny at that point, certainly. Yeah, you definitely want to start your relationship with trust and confidence.

And, you know, I will say many women out there are excited to receive lab diamonds. Totally. And by the way, women are driving the engagement process much of the time in these days. So it's a great, great for both, I would say. Yeah, I want to be clear. This was not me saying that like buying lab grown is bad. It's just like, wait,

Like whether it's something you have to disclose just like businesses do. It happens all the time. A lot of people do not disclose. And then people find out a little bit later. And we've had the situation where we saw, I think, Madison Square Garden. There was somebody with a diamond tester walking around and tested somebody's ring. And she found out at that time that it was a lab grown and she walked out. She walked out? She walked out of the stadium. Girl. Yeah. I have.

To my husband, I would be fine if you wanted to buy me some lab-grown stones. I'm here for it. But I am curious whether the availability of lab-grown stones has changed consumer behavior. And by that, I mean, lab-grown stones are generally a lot cheaper. Beth, I'll start with you. Can you tell me sort of why they've gotten cheaper and what that sort of price trajectory looked like over the past couple of years? We were one of the first to sell lab-crated diamonds. We started selling them in 2012. And at that point,

Even getting a one carat was somewhat unusual. So the inventory was much more constrained. Recently, we've had more producers out there. So as you see more volume, the price has come down a bit.

I will say that at this point in time, customers are very aware of the category. And I think awareness has really grown, whereas in 2018, awareness was lower than where we are today. What we see is that you have consumers that are drawn towards lab, you have other consumers that are drawn towards natural. And so our approach has always been to offer a broad choice and let the consumer decide. But I

But I would say at this point, we have a really nice inventory. You're able to buy a really much bigger diamond with the same budget. And customers do shop with a budget in this category. So it's really about what appeals to the customer. And we do see a lot of customers that really love lab-created the same way we also see natural.

But I think the consumption for lab-grown has really taken off because of the price differential. So, you know, to your question, back in 2018, 2% of center stones were lab-grown and they were roughly 10 to 20% discount to natural. So it's not, that wasn't a high discount, right? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And now we're looking at 75 to 90% less than the natural mind equivalent. Wow.

So you can get a two carat diamond engagement ring lab grown for $2,500. You can get the same thing for $25,000 if it's natural. That really moves the needle. And also I think acceptance also has increased.

I think 40% of almost 50% of Gen Z recognizes that a lab-grown diamond is real versus 88% of baby boomers view it as artificial. That's actually such a stark difference. And before we get to sort of the change in marketing or the change in the way we talk about it between generations,

Just to be clear, why has the supply grown so much? Are more corporations buying sort of machines to make lab-grown diamonds? Tell me about that ecosystem. Well, I think as suppliers saw demand increasing, they bought the machines and started producing it more. So some of it was just chasing demand.

the demand and just seeing the adoption that you do have this Gen Z millennial audience that's really receptive in a way that previous generations weren't. And I think a lot of suppliers, you know, wanted to capitalize on that interest. And Ankur and Aditi, how has this affected the price of natural diamonds? So from, let's say, April 2022 to now, we've seen natural diamonds drop anywhere from 35% to 40% in value.

which obviously is tremendous, but historically a lot... April 2022 was the peak, though. Correct. In fairness. So I'm not sure that's the best comparison point. You know, we saw a massive demand in 21...

across the industry and that drove prices up. Yeah. Even if you look at pre-pandemic, prices are still down where a lot of commodities are up. And I think part of the reason people used to buy diamonds, there's two fundamental reasons. One is financial flex. So you could show off that you're wearing a two carat or three carat ring and that has certain connotations. I think that has largely gone away because you could buy the same thing as lab grown for $2,500 now.

And then the second reason was really as an inflation hedge or as an investment. To be like buying bars of gold, if that makes sense. You know what I mean? Yeah. Precisely. And, you know, gold is a good analogy. Gold has been an inflation hedge and that has largely worked out. For the last year and a half, that has not worked out on the diamond side. So a lot of consumers, primarily social media, press, are seeing that it is no longer a great investment and thus they're migrating to either lab or to color.

I'm going to just say, I actually don't believe the U.S. consumers buy diamonds for an investment. And frankly, if you bought a natural diamond, you know, resale values are definitely different than what you pay face value at. What we see in the American consumer is people buy as a symbol. It's love, it's commitment. It has meaning to the customer. It has a lot of emotional value and resonance. And so that to me is fascinating.

is different than buying foreign investment, which I don't think that's how young couples are thinking about commemorating their relationship. Interesting. It's a market driven by supply and demand and that supply and demand is really global. So even if the U.S. consumer is not looking at it as an asset, certainly consumers in China and India are, and that affects pricing everywhere.

I want to talk a little bit about the way in which these diamonds are marketed. So Beth, I think you mentioned a sort of pretty interesting stat when it comes to the appeal of lab-grown diamonds to Gen Z. Why is that? What kind of language or what are the aspects of it that have really resonated with that demographic? Well, the way we talk about it, lab diamonds are affordable, they're beautiful, and they're mining-free.

because you don't have to worry about some of the social issues surrounding the diamond mining industry. I think a lot of customers get peace of mind in that way. You know, we're able to offer 100% renewable in terms of lab created. So it's using 100% renewable energy across the grow process as well as cut and polish.

That type of sustainability, I think, is really attractive to a Gen Z audience where that matters to them. That makes a lot of sense. I want to ask you, Ankur and Aditi, about how this has affected sort of the jewelry industry. When you think about natural grown diamonds, there are a few big suppliers. There's De Beers and there's a bunch of smaller jewelry businesses. But, you know, how is this affected like the Tiffany's or the Cartier's or the Bulgari's of the world?

So I think the branded jewelers, let's say Cartier, Tiffany, Bulgari are doing better than ever. Revenue is way up. Of EMH sales reports where I think jewelry as a category was up 28% in 2023. Part of the reason is a lot of Bulgari pieces, for example, you could tell from 20 feet away that that's a Bulgari serpentine necklace.

And that has a signifier value because you know exactly what you're looking at. So I think over time, the iconic pieces or the pieces that you can easily tell will continue to appreciate and people will gravitate towards that. So you're basically saying that like a brand name is everything, right? In the same way that Chanel can increase its prices by, you know, 15, 16 percent, people will still buy them. Is that fair? It will continue to matter more and more. This is a category where brands matter more.

where trust matters a lot for the consumer. They don't have a lot of experience with diamonds. And so they want to make sure that they're buying from someone that they can trust. And, you know, obviously this is all about expressing their own individuality and brands do a good job of that. Well,

Well, Beth, do you see more consumers, you know, just given the lower price of lab-grown diamonds, buying more diamond jewelry? We do see diamond jewelry being very on trend right now that a lot of customers, you know, love wearing diamond tennis bracelets, for example. Yeah.

some really nice diamond studs, which are always, I would say, fashionable for our consumers. And we also see a lot of customers that really like more personalization. So things like our Zodiac pendants are really popular. It's really about how do you express who you are as a person? And I think wearing big diamonds are very on trend right now.

For a long time, people saved up forever to buy this one engagement ring. And that was like the diamond that you have. And now it seems like there are more options for people. Is that fair to say? Absolutely. It's more accessible for a broader range of people. I think you see people, women who are self-purchasing more, which I think is really great, a way to express yourself. You don't have to wait for him to buy you.

You're much more a part of the whole process and you're a part of future purchases as well. Just in terms of like the price drop over time, what's it going to take for the price of lab-grown diamonds to get down further, Ankur? I think the price has, it's kind of followed Moore's Law. From 2018, there was very little discount. Now it's 75 to 90% off.

I think part of that is on the technology side and the supply side. The technology to grow lab-grown diamonds has gotten much better over time. But there's three fundamental components in terms of cost for lab-grown. So one is energy, and it's still a very energy-intensive process. Two is the actual physical hardware and machinery to make diamonds. That has gotten much more efficient. And third is labor. So labor is still, these are still cut and polished by hand. And

And that tends to be a pretty large portion of the cost. So I think we've kind of hit plateau, at least in the near term in pricing. And I think the next shift downwards could take five to 10 years where you could see automated machines cutting and polishing diamonds. At that point, yes, they could further have from here.

That makes sense. Beth, I'm curious, do you think it's possible, and we've seen some, you know, LVMH-owned brands try this, but do you see a market for sort of the luxury lab-grown diamond where, like, people understand that lab-grown diamonds cost less but are still willing to pay, you know, the $250,000 or whatever? Yeah.

I do. I think we're going to have to prove it out, but we definitely see very high price points in lab grown the same way that you'll see it in natural. I think only time will tell if some of the luxury legacy brands are going to endorse it. I know that they're dipping their toe in, but I think that there's an appetite on the customer side. And really it's about recognizable product, iconic, how do you

make it very desirable to the end customer. And with lab grown adoption so high and awareness high and a really openness in the category, I think we will see high price points just the same. Ankur and Aditi, your business also deals with gemstones, right? And synthetic gemstones exist, but the natural gemstone market has reacted really differently. Tell me why that is and tell me about that phenomenon.

So one thing I think that's continued after COVID definitely is that people want to go bigger and bolder. And bolder is just not about size, right? It's about color because it's visually very striking. So we've seen that, you know, almost 25% of our customers or even in a nationwide survey that we conducted would replace their diamond with a colored gemstone if they could, if they have the opportunity to.

And about almost 40% of, in the nationwide survey again, said that they would prefer a three carat lab-grown diamond over a one carat natural diamond. So we see that shift. You know, people could redo their engagement rings, what the preferences would lean towards. In terms of lab-grown color versus lab-grown diamonds, the reason I think there's a distinction is

Because color is beautiful because of the imperfections, because of the inclusions. No two color gemstones are the same. And it's almost like people where the flaws actually make it beautiful. So synthetic or let's say lab grown gemstones tend to be flawless. And the only reason you could tell that they are flawless

in fact, lab-grown is because they are flawless. Where emeralds, rubies, sapphires that you buy, it's just impossible to find them to be truly flawless. Whereas on the diamond side, you know, we've been taught over decades that this idea of a de-flawless, that colorless, inclusion-free diamond is what perfection looks like. And whether that's lab or natural, it really doesn't matter in terms of its visual look. That's not the case in color. And as people embrace their own imperfections, I think there's been a mentality shift in

You know, people are embracing their own imperfections, so they're okay having an Emerald with a slight flaw in it as well. Yeah, I also think, you know, it's just a different thing, right? I think people see it as like maybe a little bit more. There are stats about the fact that people picking other gemstones for their engagement rings is on the rise, right?

People just see it as like a little more unique, I think it's fair to say. What are the biggest trends you're seeing when it comes to jewelry purchasing around this time? Or like, you know, when you think about romance and jewelry purchasing, I suppose, like what are the biggest market trends you see? I would say we are seeing...

I mentioned diamond tennis necklaces. Those are really popular. We see tennis bracelets, very popular. Pearls are popular. Bezel are popular. We see heart-shaped diamonds, actually quite popular. We love selling those for Valentine's Day. It's a really nice gift. We just launched this tube collection, which is really cute. And it's really like about bigger diamonds.

a little bit bigger and bolder diamond jewelry, I would say, is getting to be more popular. So people want to adopt, as the TikTokers call it, mob wife aesthetic. Absolutely. Absolutely. What about you all over at Angara? I think anything personal, you know, anything customizable, you know, nameplates have done really well. You know, like Beth said, heart-shaped stones, you know, heart-shaped rubies and even garnets, you know, in those red shades, pink tones.

You know, simple bezel sets that are modern, simple, can be layerable. All those things are beautiful. And, you know, just not for Valentine's Day, but overall. But we definitely see those red shades definitely being more popular now. And birthstone is always popular. You can never go wrong to buy her birthstone, I think, for Valentine's Day. I don't know, man. I feel like I have a crappy birthstone. I'm always like, I'm like...

aquamarine are you serious like give me a ruby like you know give me like can't go wrong with diamond how about that you can't go wrong with diamond does anybody on this call have an engagement ring that they wear i'm a color girl so i have a lot of green you have a lot of green take this off 22 years i haven't taken this emerald pendant off if you could go back would you change it given how popular lab-grown stones are

I mean, not this. This is very personal to me. Again, I think any piece is about being personal and speaking to you, but I would definitely wear other lab-grown pieces for sure. Beth, would you do anything different about your jewelry collection? I have a natural diamond for my engagement ring that I love. Actually, I lost my previous diamond and so I was able to choose

and have a really nice cushion that I appreciate. And actually, my husband had custom cut my necklace. When we IPO'd, he did it from a lab-created diamond. That's really cool. So that's something that's really special to me. But we have a lot of opportunity to upgrade our jewelry box. So that's one of the benefits of being in our position. Yeah, Ankur's taking notes. I know. Yeah, I know. Thank you, Beth. Yeah.

Yes, I thought I would just add one more thing because you mentioned this shift towards color. So I thought some history on the industry might be a little bit interesting. So from the 1600s to the 1940s, color was actually the majority of the market. So ruby, emerald, sapphire, a lot of the semi-precious stones.

And then in 1948, De Beers came with A Diamond is Forever and this idea of two months salary for an engagement ring and this idea of a De Flawless being the singular pursuit of perfection. And that shifted the entire industry to 90% diamond engagement rings. Wow. That's like how Sanda used to be green and then Coca-Cola decided he should wear red. Yeah.

- That's insane. - And it worked. In both cases, it worked. So, you know, I think until let's say 2005, that was very much the case. And then we started seeing this resurgence back to color.

And I think that what we're likely to see in the next few decades is this shift back to color where it will be the majority of the industry again. Interesting. We're already seeing it in even outside of, let's say, the jewelry industry. You're seeing it in cars where supercars are increasingly sold. Really? In like M&M type colors. 80% of Ferraris were Rosa Corsa a decade ago. Now it's less than 30%.

If you look at like a Patek Philippe or Rolex or Audemars Piguet, their most coveted models have a gemstone bezel around. If you look at your iPhone, it's likely to be a color other than black, white or slate gray. That's so interesting. So that shift is happening in all parts of the world.

of our society and it's happening in color as well. So Halle Berry, Kate Middleton are all wearing gemstone engagement rings. That's also precipitating this trend towards color. - Halle Berry got engaged again? - A while ago.

Kate Middleton is from Lady Di. It's not exactly, it is not a new purchase. That is not new for sure. But she did have the option of going diamond and she went to color. So that, I mean, so I think, and even if you look at Victoria Beckham, she has multiple gemstone engagement rings.

So we're seeing that shift back just because it's individual creative expression and is no longer as much about financial flex as it used to be. Interesting. I don't know. As I got engaged two years ago and I have a colored ring, so I'll take it. I believe you as a sample of one. Yeah.

I believe you. Well, this was great. Thank you all so much for taking the time. I feel like this was, you know, it's a world that I feel like you all probably talk about all the time, but I've been telling people about lab-grown stones lately and no one has a clue. So thank you so much. Thank you as well. Thank you. Thank you.

Okay, we are back with Jess and it's time to wrap up the show with Keeping Tabs. This is where each one of us shares a story, a trend, or something from pop culture we're following right now. And Jess, since you're our guest, what are you keeping tabs on? So I kind of vintage, but I've been in a Pinterest board era. So I recently watched Naya. It hurts me that Pinterest is considered vintage. I'm just joking. Or the stuff on Pinterest is vintage.

No, just the thought of using it, boarding, all of that. I watched Nyad and I was so inspired from that movie that I was like, I'm going to run a marathon. And I'm such a visual person that I will not do anything unless I have like it in front of me. So my little rat brain was like, you know, I'm going to make a Pinterest board of inspiration and training plans. And are you also training? Well, I, yeah, like I want to be one day. I want to be that.

Right now we're in the storyboarding phase of training for Amerifa. The ever important design thinking of... Exactly. I need to have the right motivational flow.

coats and the right shoes and all of that. I've done a half before, so I'm like, I can do this. Oh, okay. All right. But that, you know, that really reignited my Pinterest passion. And so I'm like, let's make a board for, for outfits for, for hinge dates or whatever. Damn, you're committed to finding love. That was a joke. I actually don't have a board on

that. Oh, it was like, it was kind of impressive. Be like, every time I wear this shirt, this date is bad. We got to get some data. We need AI created fashion. I feel like if AI told you what to wear on dates, it would just be like really slutty clothes. It would just be like, wear as little as possible. That will ensure success.

Eight inch heels. Yeah, exactly. Josh, what are you keeping tabs on? I'm keeping tabs on Pizza Hut's new Goodbye Pies. Have you seen this? No. So Pizza Hut is doing this like gimmick kind of like pre-Valentine's Day stunt where you can...

It's called Goodbye Pies, and it's a campaign that just started last week. And it lets you order a free Pizza Hut delivery to an address of an ex-partner with a customized message. Wait, but then they get a pizza. They get a hot honey pizza.

Yeah, I mean, I'm sure you can order one for yourself. Yeah, it's a good pizza. The hot honey pizza is a good pizza. But I think the novelty, I don't know if this is necessarily going to work, but breaking up with people via pizza is, I'm keeping tabs on that. I think if somebody dumped me with a pizza, I'd be, I'd honestly be like, thank you, King. Yeah.

I'm going to eat this pizza now. Yeah. I'm into it. I mean, listen, Pizza Hut's such an interesting company because I think like them and Little Caesars are like, yeah, we know we're garbage pizza, but we're going to gimmick the hell out of everything that we do. And it's just great. I'm all for it.

Is Little Caesars still $5 for pizza? They have a... I forget what it is now, but they have like... I think it's still $5 hot and ready pizza so you can go in and get it, which like I've definitely done many times in my life and eaten an entire pizza. Pizza's the one food where like I rarely crave pizza, but when I do, I can like just... Oh, I want it now. Yeah. Yeah, and I can just like house an entire large pizza by myself. Right, it needs to be hot and ready. All the time. Yeah.

Those are the two requirements I have. Pizza Hut and our Little Caesars satisfies it. But now you can break up with people with a pizza, which is great. And get one for yourself as well because pizza's delicious. Pizza's good, yeah. Pizza's good. Pizza's a good thing. Yaz, what are you keeping tabs on? Yeah, so my keeping tabs is also going to be love-related. And it's if you want to get revenge, you sort of get revenge on an ex, you also have to pay money for it. So again, it's like pizza. It's sort of...

It's like the breakup pizza. It's like unclear who actually wins in this scenario. But you can pay $10 to name one of the cockroaches at the Bronx Zoo after anyone.

That's, hell yeah. Love that. So you could name one or several your ex's name. They may never know if you do it, unless you tell them. But you'll know. And that's what's important. And you'll know. And look, if you have an ex with a really common name, like John, probably not worth it. If you have an ex with a highly specific name, probably worth it. Can you include last names? Yeah.

That would be so good. That would be so good if we were working at the Bronx Zoo and like a first and last name came in. Like I would be looking them up on Instagram immediately. A hundred percent. A hundred percent. And that's it for Most Innovative Companies. Jess, thank you for joining us. Thank you.

Our show is produced by Avery Miles, Blake Odom, and Julia Xu. Mix and sound design by Nicholas Torres. And our executive producer is Josh Christensen. Remember again to subscribe, rate, and review. And we'll see you next week.