'You Didn't Hear This From Me' is Kelsey McKinney's gossip bible
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Hey, it's Empire's Book of the Day. I'm Andrew Limbaugh. Kelsey McKinney is on the pod today. She is the former host of the podcast Normal Gossip, a podcast about gossip. And now she's out with a new book about, you guessed it, gossip. It's titled You Didn't Hear This From Me, Mostly True Notes on Gossip. And it's a combination of essay, memoir, and criticism about the power of gossip.

In this interview with NPR's Juana Summers, McKinney makes the point that gossip doesn't have inherent moral value. It's not good. It's not bad. It is a tool like any other. But it's how we use that tool that dictates who gossip helps and who it hurts. That conversation is up ahead. This message comes from Thrive Market. The food industry is a multi-billion dollar industry, but not everything on the shelf is made with your health in mind.

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What is it that makes gossip so irresistible? Examples of its pull and power. They exist all over pop culture. Did you write this? No, I swear. Then you told somebody. She told. What? I know, I know. Are you spreading rumors? We were literally just talking about that. How could you know?

Everybody knows. And if you ask Kelsey McKinney, we might just be born with the desire to gossip for good reason. She offers this take from a British anthropologist. Robin Dunbar argues that we as a species developed language so that we could talk to each other and keep ourselves alive. And that that is a key part of gossip because you don't need language if you're not going to gossip.

We're the only animal that can contain theory of mind. The idea that you and I are talking about something that isn't right in front of us and you can imagine it.

That is like a fundamental part of being human. McKinney has studied gossip and made a whole career out of it. She's co-creator of the podcast Normal Gossip. Each episode serves up some anonymous tea and guests react to all of the twists and turns of the stories being told. At the end of last year, McKinney stepped away from the podcast, handing the reins over to a new host.

And her next big move is the release of a new book this week. It's called You Didn't Hear This From Me, Mostly True Notes on Gossip. And Kelsey McKinney stopped by NPR Studios in D.C. to talk about it. You talk a lot about growing up in the evangelical church and what you took away from church about gossip. You described it as something that wasn't allowed, that was seen as sort of an affront against God. But

It didn't go away. It stuck with you. You enjoyed it, even though you tried to put some distance. There's the story you tell early in the book about the moment that you were first told that gossip was this thorn in your side. Can you tell us that story? So in the Bible, Paul, he says, "'Thorn was put in my side,' and that this is what is supposed to remind me of Christ, to remind me that I'm broken in this way. I was told by church leaders that the thorn for me was gossip."

And I realized in high school that I didn't know that I believed that anymore. When I'm talking about gossip, I'm talking about it in its most broad term. So two people talking to each other about someone who's not there, which in that definition means that prayer requests...

Where I say, can you pray for my friend who's going through this thing is gossiping. And so for me, realizing that this thing I had been told was bad across the board in every scenario meant that I had to question everything I had been told. I want to switch gears a little bit. Even though you defend and participate in and have built a career on gossip, you don't ignore the topic of misinformation and the role that gossip plays in it.

I want to quote something that you wrote in one chapter. Uh-oh. A good conspiracy theory is built of gossip that has flown too close to the sun and been burnt to a crisp. There's always a hint of truth there. So how do we keep a safe distance then? How do we stop a story from going too far, possibly even causing harm to someone? I think the safest bet is to gossip about your own community, people that you know who you interact with.

But part of defining gossip so broadly is recognizing when it's no longer gossip and has evolved into something more sinister. For conspiracy theories, you can usually flag those just by trying to determine whether it has some kind of nefarious intent to it, right? Am I being told this story because someone wants me to believe that the government is against me or that someone is hiding something very important?

Or am I being told this story as a form of entertainment? So there will always be people who seek to sow confusion and anger for their own benefit by spreading a rumor or intentionally distorting the facts. So I wonder, can we have one without the other or these two things that are always going to coexist? Yeah, so I would push you on that, actually.

at first because someone who's spreading something they know is not true is not definitionally gossiping. They're libeling, slandering, defaming. Those things I think are universally bad. You should not make things up and spread them. It's hurtful.

But I do think you're right. There is a kind of dark underbelly to gossip. It's not a universal good, right? I think there's a kind of tenor in the air right now of people saying, oh, gossip is this moral good. Gossip is this great thing for society. And I think that's equally as dangerous as saying gossip is an evil mortal sin that is going to ruin society. Like gossip is just a tool that we use in our civilization and a hammer cannot be morally good or bad. It is just what it is.

You mentioned entertainment, which means I have to talk about something that I love because I'm trash and it is reality TV. Oh, my God. I mean, you wrote about how it shows us that gossip is how we decide who to trust, who we shouldn't trust, and how watching all of these narratives play out and these people that we have absolutely no personal connection to. We are seeing people build communities and we're also watching them at times burn them to the ground. Right.

How would you describe what reality TV reflects back to us about ourselves, and why is it so irresistible? I think reality television gives you the ability to talk about people and the way they behave without any personal stakes. I can watch The Real Housewives of New York reunion, and I can text my friend the whole time and be like, I think that this person's lying. I think this person's doing it wrong, right? And you can have all of these opinions, and there are no repercussions for you. But part of the reason why I think reality TV is so irresistible is because it's so irresistible.

But part of that is also social learning, which I think is so fascinating and so fun and a great excuse to consume way more reality television. I love any excuse for that. And we know that social scientists have studied that even the act of gossiping with someone will lower your heart rate. It makes you feel calm to be in that kind of trusting relationship with someone.

That is really interesting with reality TV and gossip in general is that it gives you a way to connect yourself to someone even more intimately. And the other part of it is, though, and I think that this, as you have pointed out and as you've written, gossip is also incredibly useful and it can be powerful. Can you talk about the power and utility of gossip?

Yeah. So something that I consider gossip and that is gossip definitionally is something like a whisper network. So the idea that people are talking to each other in order to protect themselves from someone in power. A great example of this is the Me Too movement, where you have women talking to each other and saying, hey, I'm

We need to be careful about this. But that also exists at way smaller levels. It's people telling each other which bosses to be aware of. It's women saying, watch out for this man at a bar, right? It's this kind of solidarity that exists within that talk.

We use gossip as a way to protect ourselves from people who don't need gossip because they can just make decisions for us. I want to end on this. What is your best advice for how all of us can use gossip to help us better understand ourselves and the world around us? It sounds a little woo-woo, but I do think you know if you're crossing some kind of line if it feels bad in your body.

And then in terms of understanding the world around you, gossip is really good at showing you your own biases. So if you can pay attention to the way that you talk to people and the way that they talk back to you, you can start realizing the parts of the world that you're biased against. And I think that that is a great way to interact with the world. I lied. One more question. Not a lie. Hey.

Have you heard any good gossip lately? Oh, my God. The amount of gossip I would love to tell you, but that I cannot tell you on National Public Radio is infinite. We have been talking with Kelsey McKinney. Her new book, You Didn't Hear This From Me, mostly true notes on gossip, is out now. Kelsey, it's been such a pleasure. Thank you for having me.

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