Lots More With Charlie McElligott on the Sharp, Strange Selloff
25:42 Share

Bye.

However you do it, TastyTrade's got the advanced tools you need to tackle stocks, options, futures, and more, all in one place. Chart your heart out with over 300 indicators. See opportunity differently with interactive curve analysis. Use backtesting to learn from the past and plan for the future. The platform is only the beginning of better trading. You'll also find low pricing, lots of education, and backup from a support team that really gets how traders trade.

There are presentations.

And then there are Canva presentations. With Canva, you can use AI to take your presentation to the next level. You can generate dynamic slides and text with a simple prompt. You can drag and drop graphics and charts from Canva's media library and add interactive elements to plus up your deck. And with collaboration tools built in, the whole team can work together better.

You'll love the presentations you can easily design with Canva. Your clients and coworkers will too. Love your work with Canva presentations at canva.com. This is an ad by BetterHelp. Think about your mentors and idols, the people who inspire you most. While it may look like they have all the answers, they don't. But they do know when to ask questions and seek the support they need.

In a world that glorifies hyper-independence, it's easy to forget that we're all better with the support system behind us. Therapy is a great way to invest in yourself and find a consistent source of support in your life so you can break free from the outdated belief that seeking help is a sign of weakness. BetterHelp has experienced therapists ready to help you with challenges ranging from anxiety and depression to relationships to stress. It's

It's convenient, too. You can join a session with a click of a button, helping you fit therapy into your busy life. And you deserve that. You can even send your therapist a message any time something comes up. Build your support system with BetterHelp. Visit BetterHelp.com slash podbusiness today to get 10% off your first month. That's BetterHelp, H-E-L-P dot com slash podbusiness.

Bloomberg Audio Studios. Podcasts. Radio. News. It's good. It's good. You know, markets are fun. And as we said, spring is here. Yeah, markets finally got interesting. Oh, man. I mean, I have so many thoughts. Oh, good. All right. If you can't tell from my normal stream of consciousness operation. You know how I know it was bad, Joe? What?

Go on. It was one of those weeks where we talked about negative gamma quite a lot. What's gamma again? Interestingly, we didn't talk that much about standard deviations, which is kind of funny. Normally, those two kind of go hand in hand, but not last week. It was weird. What's gamma again? I feel so dumb because I know we've talked about gamma and it's just one of those things like, what is it again? Should we get you a refresher? Yeah, I need one of those Guide to the Greeks books.

or something or like a little like laminated card that I can like. Someone should do a coffee table book. Yeah. Yeah. Guide to the Greeks. I like Greek stuff these days, you know, because I'm into like ancient history and everything like that. I know what alpha is. I know what beta is. After that, I started to get a little dicey.

I did a deadlift. I am both the most popular trader and most successful trader at Citadel. Fed has gone viral. Barges. This is an after-school special, except... I've decided I'm going to base my entire personality going forward on campaigning for a strategic pork reserve in the U.S. Black gold. These are the important questions. Is it robots taking over the world? No, I think that, like...

In a couple of years, the AI will do a really good job of making the Odd Lots podcast. One day that person will have the mandate of heaven. How do I get more popular and successful? We do have the perfect guest. You're listening to Lots More, where we catch up with friends about what's going on right now. Because even when the Odd Lots is over, there's always lots more. And we really do have the perfect guest. ♪

Oh, the definition. I feel like I've done this before, but gamma, gamma is the option sensitivity to the change in delta. And delta is the option sensitivity to the underlying price. So gamma is like the change of the change. It's a function of the underlying price, but it's second order. And I guess negative gamma is

That's when delta is in the opposite direction to the stock price movement. So delta goes down if the underlying asset price is going up, and then it becomes less negative if the underlying asset price is falling.

And we usually see people talk about this during market sell-offs because all the options traders have to basically sell or buy stuff to hedge all that changing exposure. And the suspicion is always that that hedging activity are pushing the market in one way or the other.

I think that's it. Okay, I did it. Charlie, you should write a book, a coffee table book on the Greek letters. I'm liking this Spartans versus Romans history vibe we're going with. Yeah, that's very you. I feel that's very you. Yeah, yeah. It resonates. It resonates. Could have something to do with the beard.

Well, if you just think about it with regards to who is long and who is short in the option at a certain level, and that's so much of what we're asked to do in our job is to get a sense for where these potential acceleration points or potential gravity points are. And you're looking at the whole spectrum of strikes across the S&P index options, and you're then doing your kind of risk calculations and your Greeks calculations, and you net out all of those strikes. You have to identify calls sold,

Calls bought, puts sold, puts bought, multi-leg tracks. It's quite complex. I think in the past, there was a lot of false narrative because people made kind of two core assumptions on dealer positioning before you had the actual exchange tagged data, which now gives you the actuals. Those two prior assumptions are that dealers are short puts to hedgers.

And long calls from overriders, these VRP vol sellers that you hear so much about these days that create dynamics where the market is trapped in long gamma, right? Because we're constantly, dealers are constantly getting stuffed from these premium collectors. Yeah. But short gamma matters because that's where you get these potential jump off points where you, you know, blow through a level or a dealer is short, a strike. Yeah.

And then you get that prevailing market move is fed into. So that matters. In case you can't tell, we are here with Charlie McElligot. He is, of course, a strategist over at Nomura, the person to talk to when it comes to this kind of market technicality. And we are recording this on March 19th. We're either stupid or brave for doing this like right before October.

a Fed decision. I'm going to choose Brave because the bar is fairly low nowadays. So my view is like there's been so much volatility lately, Tracy, regardless of what happens in the 48 hours between now and then, there's enough to talk about. Yeah, for sure. Okay. So speaking of what happened last week, you mentioned specifically

points at which the sell-off can accelerate. And I think in your notes, you had like 5,650 and 5,560, something like that, as your points on the S&P 500, at which point the sell-off could accelerate. We did get to a low of like 5,500 on the Thursday, but we saw stocks recover. Why did that happen? So there was two large markets.

short gamma strikes in the S&P index options diaspora for dealers. And I think it was, I think it was 5,600 and then 55, 65, a particular level, which is part of this large listed trade in the market that is well socialized out there that at the end of this month, so not this week's options expiration, but the end of this month, the March quarterly exists and is part of something called a put spread collar, where a callback

call is sold out of the money to then help finance this put spread in the market. And that 55-65 is a short strike, which means that in this case, it looks like short gamma. I think the fact is about that, however, and thus this idea of at this point in the month where it's still a few weeks out from happening, it could, in fact, be

potentially behave as you would think as this acceleration points through it. Once you did, you kind of bounced around, it held three or four times and it kind of cracked through it. The thing is, is that the market knows that this trade gets rolled and rebalanced, I should say, into the next quarter's trade at the end of this month. And you know that there is going to be a ton of Vega for sale.

As part of this. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so then this strike in some ways actually ends up looking quite dissimilar

from your typical idea of short game as this acceleration point, depending on where the market is at the time of expiration, which will affect what the client does with those strikes and sets the new put spread collar. But I think the larger conversation that I want to have about vol is that much of the incoming has been about why is vol actually seemingly unresponsive? Yeah. So the VIX, like I know the VIX went up, but I think it went to like...

And you compare that to like it was above 80 in 2020. And even in 2022, it was like 36 or in the 30s. Vol was really quiet. Even in 24. Yeah. August 2024 got nearly to 40. Anyway. Yeah. So the last time I was in here was after that August shock. And that was a proper as I kind of framed it at the time and still will.

The world was aggregated around this soft landing viewpoint. And all of a sudden, in the span of one day's worth of data, but it was really even a week of data, of labor data. Well, the fix got to 65. Yeah. And that was because we repriced the left tail. All of a sudden, there was a hard landing risk because the labor data shocked us. You know, that U-rate jump and then the NFP miss. The difference this time around is that since the election, right, Donald Trump is the personification of

of a gamma agent. You are the only person I know who describes Trump as a gamma agent. Everyone has their terms. Right, but I mean... A living personification of gamma. And I think, look, his mandate is to break status quo. Right. And we talked...

That last August shock about the idea that the concept of a carry trade, because we were being asked about the carry on wine, which is kind of like this false narrative. But the idea of any sort of carry trade or positioning high sharp ratio trade, right? High risk adjusted return is that you need a period of low volatility to

to kind of aggregate that position, to build that leverage into the trade because it keeps working. The vol is low, the price keeps working higher. That builds the leverage in the system. That hence builds the risk, right? Stability breeds instability. In this case...

Donald Trump, even if the market was misidentifying the macro of his policies at the time, which we should talk about. Oh, you're just never going to get that risk buildup. Well, in this case, starting November, you know, when it really took shape, and I think the market had been sensing certainly since kind of the summer, skewed.

SKU is seepening. SKU matters, right, just as a relative measure of kind of demand for downside versus demand for upside. Put SKU, which is like deep out of the money downside relative to at the money put, was jacked 90-something percentile because of all of the potential chaos agent. So vol is getting more expensive. So vol was already quite expensive. Yeah.

going into this scenario, even if maybe the macro catalyst went the wrong way. And I think there's two big things that happened. So let's talk about this past week. It really was past three weeks. You had crowded narratives and crowded thematic positioning with a lot of leverage, right? That is what the prime brokerage data shows and frankly still shows, like gross exposure, your longs and your shorts in aggregate, still kind of 90-something percentile, was 100 percentile.

Coming into the year, though, we also had high nets. So you had a lot more long than short. Either way, a lot of leverage in the system. Old trading walks into a bar. New trading raises it. Unlike some guys, tasty trade puts traders first. Maybe you're the type to hunker down on your desktop for hours. Maybe you breeze by on your browser. Or maybe you just need that top-rated app right by your side. However...

However you do it, TastyTrade's got the advanced tools you need to tackle stocks, options, futures, and more, all in one place. Chart your heart out with over 300 indicators. See opportunity differently with interactive curve analysis. Use backtesting to learn from the past and plan for the future. The platform is only the beginning of better trading. You'll also find low pricing, lots of education, and backup from a support team that really gets how traders trade.

It's no wonder Investopedia named Tasty Trade the best broker for options in 2024. Genius loves company. So get moving at tastytrade.com slash ride with us. Tasty Trade Inc. is a registered broker dealer and member of FINRA, NFA, and SIPC. Deep domain expertise, strong relationships, broad capabilities. It's what makes Stifel one of the industry's leading providers of M&A and capital raising services in the middle market.

But don't just take anyone's word for it. IFR has named Stiefel U.S. Mid-Market Equity House of the Year five times in the last 10 years. When it comes to investment banking, Stiefel is the name you should know. To learn more about how Stiefel can help you address your most complex investment banking needs, visit StiefelInstitutional.com. Stiefel, Nicholas & Company, Inc., member SIPC and New York Stock Exchange. People endure presentations.

But they engage with Canva Presentations. You click through a normal presentation. You impress with a Canva presentation. With Canva, you can use AI to instantly elevate your presentation, generating slides and text in seconds with a simple prompt. Dynamic, visually imaginative, difference-making slides. Canva Presentations provides everything you need to build your deck, so you never need to switch between apps. Just focus on what you're doing. You

You can drag and drop images, graphics, charts, and data from Canva's media library, or add animations and interactive elements to engage your audience. It's all right there for you. Canva makes collaboration simple too, and everyone knows presentations are a team effort. Comments, reactions, and version control are designed to help teams work together better. Working from stunning templates, you don't need to be a designer to make it look great. It's just a smarter way to build a better-looking deck.

You'll love the presentations you can easily design with Canva. Your clients and coworkers will, too. Love your work with Canva presentations at Canva.com. Give us, like, a little zoom out, basically from mid-November to, as you said, about three weeks ago it started turning. I think the peak on that, I think it was February 19th or something like that. Yes. But talk to us just about that sort of kind of an up crash in the wake of the election. People...

loading into everything risky from crypto to Tesla and everything. False narratives. Yeah, what was going on there? And then how extreme did that get? Yeah, I mean, that's the perfect segue here because like in the sense that

The post-election narrative and remember the rate sell-off beginning in September when the market really got their arms around seemingly some of this polling that was showing much more credible kind of Trump lead. Yeah. The rate sell-off, meaning yields going higher, was about this idea that regardless of who won, but particularly if Trump won, that –

We had become both sides become economic populace and that fiscal dominance was this overriding theme where like we don't have a tolerance for pain as a society. We saw the kind of the steroidal impact of fiscal stimulus in the post-COVID world, which kind of was the tiebreaker for finally getting an inflation shock, as we all experienced.

So this idea that he was going to take an already strong economy and overheat it with DREG, with tax cuts, and these other stimulative measures completely had the market thinking about

further extension of U.S. exceptionalism, right? This ability to outperform rest of the world for a whole number of reasons, which is a separate podcast, but like positioning was like long U.S. assets. Europe was going to be cutting sooner because they were feeling the brunt of the slowdown force more so there. China had all sorts of issues, right? Rest of world struggling U.S. exceptionalism and part of U.S. exceptionalism, not just kind of like

global hegemon, strongest economy, deregulation, all these stimulant measures in the pipes, was also, too, this idea of tech innovation. And tech innovation was the story of last year and the last two years. The last 15 years. With regards to AI, right? Yeah, it used to be FANG back in the teens, right? So this idea of mega cap tech, all those things that made people, you know, that completely dictated stock market last year, like MAG-7, MAG-8,

35% of the S&P 500, 50-some percent of the NASDAQ, concentration of all of these kind of tech and disruption themes in the market. That was a big part of the U.S. exceptionalism trade. Well, guess what? Those trades are really crowded. They're really loaded into, and –

Two shocks happened. The first shock was the market, and this is where I started, you know, going out and talking about hedging for downside in February, was this idea that the market, I think, was misunderstanding the phasing or the sequencing of a Trump economic plan, which was you've got to do the painful stuff first in order to get to the stimulative stuff later. And that spread, that time spread, you know, you had to kind of try to engineer a slowdown. Mm-hmm.

to then be able to get the rate cuts via the disinflation that he is trying to create, which ultimately, you know, this idea of like fiscal contraction to potentially then fiscally expand, you could even say. The other shock that's lost in the wash here, and this wasn't just a Trump growth scare, right?

We already growth scare every Q1 into Q2. That's an artifact of the post-COVID economic world. That's right. We had a good piece from Neil about that. Anyway, keep going. Yeah, so that matters, right? You know, that was part of my thesis. Like, look and see the trajectory. We have these overheated animal spirits, Q1 numbers, and then the seasonal adjustments kick in, and we have a growth scare in Q2 or into Q3. But the other element here was the deep-seek story.

in tech innovation, in that market concentration. And guess what? There's all sorts, those names aren't just massive parts of index and massive thematic parts, retail investors and hedge fund longs and things like that. Think about their impact in the leveraged ETF space, which has just absolutely grown massively. That's a source of synthetic negative gamut in the market, which, you know, on their end of day rebalancing into an up day, they've got a ton to buy at the end of the day. And 80% of those assets happen to be concentrated in kind of like concentric tech disruption circles.

So you add in this massive rethink on what had been the perpetual motion machine of AI CapEx.

And that deep seek shock and NVIDIA trades down 17% kind of after that realization that weekend of what we were looking at. All of a sudden, a massive valuation shock and an earnings repricing effectively. Tracy, did you see this from Eric Belkunis yesterday? Vista shares filing for an animal spirits ETF, A-N-I-M, and a 2X animal spirits ETF, 1X.

which will hold the five fastest growing 2X single stock ETFs at any given time. Isn't that just called momentum? Yeah, but that's not, that momentum isn't enough. It's momentum with leverage. And guess what? There will be options on it too. So there's synthetic negative gamma and actual real negative gamma.

So the final point here is you had these two shocks to what consensus was, consensus positioning and consensus narrative. Now, all of a sudden, this realization that phase one is going to have to engineer a slowdown to get the stimulative stuff that Trump wants to do. Yeah, isn't that weird? Like, why are we crashing economic growth to boost economic growth? Well, because I think in this case, like there is something credible to the idea that

the deficit spending was a market concern, right? I mean, think about what rates were doing last year when we were talking about fiscal dominance. What's ironic here is that you then get punished for trying to address it. So look at Europe, for instance, and this is like a big trade in the market right now. It's like very simplistic, but this is the way that asset allocators think and move, right? Who's fiscally contracting and tightening and who's fiscally expanding and stimulating?

Europe, right? Trump said, look, we might be talking about the end of Bretton Woods post-World War II Pax Americana here, right? We're no longer going to protect you for you to buy U.S. dollar assets and use our currency. So guess what? Europe has to go out

create this financing. And with that, all of a sudden, now they are a fiscal expander after years of being the source. So it's a total, it's a real regime shift. It's a real potential regime shift. Even though I think this ultimately creates the conditions for

Where if you do kind of crash the economy and you can't stick the landing on this engineered recession, then you inevitably have to fiscally expand. And that's why I think a lot of these like long Europe, long China trades will be –

quick to move their feet. I can't say this is a tectonic permanent structural shift yet because the worse it gets for us and we get punished and you have fiscal tightening and markets sell off and all those bad things that create a negative wealth effect, which in the short term help get the disinflation to get the Fed cuts. Right. Right. To get the stimulus through. Right. This is all part of this kind of second order thinking that you need to be looking into. Right.

Old trading walks into a bar. New trading raises it. Unlike some guys, TastyTrade puts traders first. Maybe you're the type to hunker down on your desktop for hours. Maybe you breeze by on your browser. Or maybe you just need that top-rated app right by your side.

However you do it, TastyTrade's got the advanced tools you need to tackle stocks, options, futures, and more, all in one place. Chart your heart out with over 300 indicators. See opportunity differently with interactive curve analysis. Use backtesting to learn from the past and plan for the future. The platform is only the beginning of better trading. You'll also find low pricing, lots of education, and backup from a support team that really gets how traders trade.

It's no wonder Investopedia named Tasty Trade the best broker for options in 2024. Genius loves company. So get moving at tastytrade.com slash ride with us. Tasty Trade Inc. is a registered broker dealer and member of FINRA, NFA, and SIPC. Deep domain expertise, strong relationships, broad capabilities. It's what makes Stifel one of the industry's leading providers of M&A and capital raising services in the middle market.

But don't just take anyone's word for it. IFR has named Stiefel U.S. Mid-Market Equity House of the Year five times in the last 10 years. When it comes to investment banking, Stiefel is the name you should know. To learn more about how Stiefel can help you address your most complex investment banking needs, visit StiefelInstitutional.com. Stiefel Nicholas & Company, Inc., member SIPC and New York Stock Exchange. People endure presentations.

But they engage with Canva Presentations. You click through a normal presentation. You impress with a Canva presentation. With Canva, you can use AI to instantly elevate your presentation, generating slides and text in seconds with a simple prompt. Dynamic, visually imaginative, difference-making slides. Canva Presentations provides everything you need to build your deck, so you never need to switch between apps. Just focus on what you're doing.

You can drag and drop images, graphics, charts, and data from Canva's media library, or add animations and interactive elements to engage your audience. It's all right there for you. Canva makes collaboration simple too, and everyone knows presentations are a team effort. Comments, reactions, and version control are designed to help teams work together better. Working from stunning templates, you don't need to be a designer to make it look great. It's just a smarter way to build a better-looking deck.

You'll love the presentations you can easily design with Canva. Your clients and coworkers will too. Love your work with Canva presentations at canva.com. Okay, so we had a wild but not disorderly sell-off. Sounds like my high school report card.

But I imagine it was still painful for certain investors. So we just mentioned momentum, like that must have been painful. Multi-strats must have had a hard time because we saw a lot of the over-performers underperforming and the under-performers suddenly over-performing. How was it? Give us some like market color.

Well, in some of those, I mean, you look at the biggest multistrats that have been 100% of the net alternative investment or hedge fund inflow over the past X number of years, right? So, like, long short isn't where it's at anymore. It's about the market neutrals, and that's just speaking to, like, their equities components. But, of course, they have these other risk diversifying strategies with incredibly tight risk management, tight stops.

And that's how when you apply a lot of leverage to these small controlled market neutral gains, you then get these incredible annual returns that those biggest shops have been posting. But the fact of the matter is crowding happens and leverage on top of crowding happens. And then shadow leverage happens with leveraged ETFs. Leverage on leverage. And vault control, target volatility and CTAs and all that stuff is synthetic netting.

So, and even where, you know, there's a very well publicized loss with regards to index ARB, you know, at one of these funds or whatever, I think that was probably negatively impacted. They have to model out the flows across the diaspora of things out there at the end of the day to do their index ads and deletes. Well, they were probably getting screwed with by a lot of the leveraged ETF flows at the end of the day that are completely negative.

completely nuking and creating these big overshoots and these big negative gamma type moves. So the long story short is that for the month of February, let's say, talking with people deep in the inside, senior traders and whatnot, these were losses, one month losses that people had not experienced that have been there four or five type years in places that just don't lose money. They just stop you so effectively. Now, it is a tribute to the model, however, that there's no blowups. There's no LTCMs here.

I mean, yeah, they didn't make money. They might have had a worst month or in the start of March was also, you know, going the wrong way too, but you're not going existential here. So that actually speaks to the model working. The bigger issue, and I think the bigger thought process takeaway here is that

When you have trades over a period of time are built on the status quo of U.S. exceptionalism, right? That is effectively a carry trade. Yeah. And we had leverage built into the system for 15 years of QE. We had leverage built into the system from modern monetary theory and the outright money drops that we've done over the past five years. Joe, that's your fault. Yeah, might be. Yeah.

So, I mean, all of these things created this ugly deleveraging effect, even at market neutral shops. The good news is it wasn't a vol feature. It wasn't a vol event because we were already hedged. That's why SKU was high. Implied vol was high. All the put SKU was high. So it didn't become a vol event, which is where you get some of those accelerant flows to kick in.

On this note, I have a slightly weird question, but could we ever get to the point where the volatility complex is so large and so in demand that you're just never going to have a volatility event like we saw in 2018, something along those lines, because everyone is paying through the nose for downside protection? Well, I mean, ironically, it's when you're well hedged that you then have a condition where you can

create the crash, right? Which means that dealers are short all these puts. I think- I guess you have to have sellers on the other side too. That's the big thing, that we've conditioned the behavior, whether it's, you know, Fed stepping in, that moral hazard dynamic, or nowadays politicians, fiscal stepping up, whether it's Silicon Valley Bank and-

70 different new five-letter acronym liquidity special features in the market that put out fires. And that's why the back test on vol selling strategies and the AUM and vol selling strategies just keeps working. Like you sell the panics.

And that's ultimately what ends up happening when you have this short optionality dynamic in the market, whether it's dealer short real downside hedges or it's CTA trend flipping from a long to a short and having to sell more the lower it goes or target volatility funds is like a hedge overlay doing the same thing or leveraged ETFs. You get the point now.

What ends up happening is that it's the option sellers that stop the problem because they come back in, they give dealers back their gamma, they sell option out, and they sell rich vol. The market stabilizes, ranges compress. You need to keep feeding volatility. Volatility is mean reverting. And if you can't keep having daily 1.5% moves, which is a big ask, you need persistent new bad news.

Otherwise, realize volatility compresses, ranges compress, vol sellers feel more confident. They fill in, dealers get long gamma, we stabilize. People start covering their, monetizing their hedges. They take those off, that creates delta to buy. The market starts rallying. People buy short-dated upside, it squeezes it. That's the cycle that we're on, like this really short-term ecosystem, but vol sellers are

are, I would say, the bigger players now than hedge buyers. And that's a real footprint of the past 20 years, ever since QE, where the previous buyers of volatility were real asset managers like long homies and things like that. After QE, a lot of those...

folks, big pension funds became sellers of volatility. Yeah, this was Bill Gross's thing when he stood up on stage and said, everyone sell volatility. That's like the only trade right now because nothing is happening. Right. Nothing's happening. You have to bet on nothing. Until now. Yeah. Maybe. Until now, maybe. One other point I would make on volatility, the reason that it got so wacky in August, for instance, was the fact that conditioning that says sell the rich vol, and remember like the non-farm payroll and EURATE data was that Friday. Yeah.

And we crashed hard, but everybody was so conditioned that we closed the market that day with anybody in the vol space saying, I want to be short vol, short delta. I want to sell this rich vol, but still think the market normalizes here because we can't maintain this richness and volatility. Well, then the Nikkei opened down 12% because it was like a kind of a hot leverage trade at that time. And it was the second day that got people stopped out. The other point here too was that that day of Friday,

one of the largest vol players in the market, thinking that they were doing themselves a solid and hedging by buying VIX calls, ended up creating their own demise in a sense. Because that created some of that short VIX convexity that then really went wild over the span of the next day and a half.

and created a bigger issue within the vol complex. So this is the idea that when you have buyers of hedges, they actually create the conditions for the crashes. Right. Well, I guess we'll see what happens with the Fed meeting. And we'll see if there's like a big regime shift because it's eventually, right? Maybe something will change. Maybe one day mean reversion

We'll come to an end. Volatility is mean reverting normally. Maybe. But we're not in normal times, so we'll see. Lots More is produced by Carmen Rodriguez and Dashiell Bennett with help from Moses Andam and Cale Brooks. Our sound engineer is Blake Maples. Sage Bauman is the head of Bloomberg Podcasts. Please rate, review, and subscribe to Odd Lots and Lots More on your favorite podcast platforms.

And remember that Bloomberg subscribers can listen to all our podcasts ad-free by connecting through Apple Podcasts. Thanks for listening. Hey, it's Rich Davis from Covino & Rich. The Toyota Tundra and Tacoma are designed to outlast and outlive, combining raw power with precision engineering. All backed by Toyota's legendary reputation for reliability. Climb inside a Tundra and experience the uncompromising strength...

with its available i-Force Max engine, and Tundra delivers exceptional power, torque, and towing capacity. Plus, the spacious and high-tech cabin keeps you connected on the run. Or check out a Tacoma. Agile, dependable, and unstoppable, the Tacoma's designed for those who go beyond the trails.

Stay ahead of the pack with available off-road features like crawl control or break out your tunes with the available portable JBL speaker. Toyota trucks are built to last year after year, mile after mile, so outlast every adventure and outlive the moment. Buy a Tundra or Tacoma today. Visit buyatoyota.com, Toyota's official website for deals, or stop by your local Toyota dealer to find out more. Toyota.

Let's go places.

It's not easy to stand out from the crowd. Simplify how you stock up to get ahead. Go to AmazonBusiness.com for support. When you're making financial decisions for a company, growth is great until manual work slows you down. Enter Intuit Enterprise Suite. This next-level solution integrates and streamlines all business management tools, improving effectiveness while cutting costs and overhead so your business keeps growing. Learn more at Intuit.com slash enterprise.