Rosalind Chow on How Sponsors Fuel Your Career Growth | EP 602
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Coming up next on Passion Struck. To me, mattering is knowing that other people would notice if you were gone. That's something that I was thinking a lot more about. And so when we sponsor other people, we're essentially saying the world is better for having this person in it. And if you weren't aware of them, that would be very sad for all of us. And so when you think about people who don't get sponsored, basically,

basically they're not having someone going out and telling other people about how much they matter and how much they should miss them if they were not there. Welcome to Passion Struck. Hi, I'm your host, John R. Miles, and on the show, we decipher the secrets, tips, and guidance of the world's most inspiring people and turn their wisdom into practical advice

for you and those around you. Our mission is to help you unlock the power of intentionality so that you can become the best version of yourself. If you're new to the show, I offer advice and answer listener questions on Fridays. We have long form interviews the rest of the week with guests ranging from astronauts to authors, CEOs, creators, innovators, scientists, military leaders, visionaries, and athletes. Now,

Let's go out there and become passion struck. Welcome to episode 602 of passion struck. Whether you're joining for the first time or returning to the show, I want to thank you. This is more than a podcast. It's a movement to explore what it means to live intentionally, grow meaningfully and make what truly matters matter most. So let me start with this. What if career success wasn't just about talent,

or hard work, but about who is willing to open the door for you. What if the greatest barrier to inclusion wasn't lack of ability, but lack of visibility? And what if every one of us, regardless of our title, has the power to change someone else's trajectory simply by seeing them? Today, I'm joined by Dr. Rosalind Chow, acclaimed organizational psychologist, researcher at Carnegie Mellon,

and author of the powerful new book, The Doors You Can Open, a new way to network, build trust, and use your influence to create a more inclusive workplace. This is a conversation about more than networking. It's about the power of sponsorship.

Stepping beyond advice to actively reshape how others are seen. In today's episode, we discuss why sponsorship, not mentorship, is the missing piece of equity. What we can learn from the story of Kim Eng and Derek Jeter. How listening, not advising, is the first step to inclusion. Why sponsorship is a courageous act.

and a risky one, how every leader, every person can become a force for mattering. If you've ever felt unseen in your career or wanted to champion others more powerfully, this episode is for you. And in case you missed it, earlier in the week, I spoke with Yonge Mingur Rinpoche about discovering peace through panic and awakening the goodness already within you. And in my Friday solo episode, I explored the hidden link between serendipity and mattering.

and how unexpected moments of meaning often arise when we're most present. As part of that journey, we also launched the Ignition Room, a powerful new community space for PassionStruck listeners to connect,

reflect, and grow intentionally together. It's your place to deepen the ideas we discuss here and spark new ones of your own. Links are in the show notes. And if you're new to the show, check out our curated starter packs at Spotify or passionstruck.com slash starter packs or explore the ignition room. Now let's dive into this profound and practical conversation with Dr. Rosalind Chow. Thank you for choosing PassionStruck and choosing me to be your host and guide

on your journey to creating an intentional life. Now, let that journey begin.

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The car is sold, but will Carvana pick it up in time for... They'll literally pick it up tomorrow morning. Done with the dramatics. Car selling in record time. Save your time. Go to Carvana.com and sell your car today. Pickup fees may apply. I am so excited today to have Rosalind Chow on PassionStruck. Welcome, Rosalind. How are you today? I'm doing well. Thank you for having me. Oh, I am so ecstatic to have you, and we've been discussing...

doing this for a while and it coincides with the launch of your brand new book, The Doors You Can Open: A New Way to Network, Build Trust, and Use Your Influence to Create a More Inclusive Workplace. Congratulations on its release. Thank you. So I'd love to start these conversations out with this question. We all have defining moments that shape who we become, our values, etc. What's a defining moment for you?

So for me, it would hands down be

And I apologize to my husband because I'm sure what I'm supposed to say is when I met my husband or when I had my children. But professionally, at least for me, it was when I was asked to propose a new executive education program for Tupper Exec Ed. They had been approached by a client who wanted someone to create a leadership program for Black professionals in the Pittsburgh region.

And they wanted the program to have a strong sponsorship component.

When Leanne Meyer, who was one of the people in exec ed at that time, she was the one who reached out to me because she knew that I was doing research on sponsorship. She asked me if I would put together a curriculum for this client that they could then pitch to them. And I was very surprised, one, that I had been asked because I was still a pretty junior faculty member at that point. I didn't have tenure yet.

I had done a lot of research, but I didn't have a lot of corporate experience. And my one time teaching in exec ed had not really gone very well. They basically didn't have me come back afterward. It was a shock to go from not having heard from exec ed in many years to not

wanting me to submit like a whole program design. And then there was this very little small issue. It was a program for black leaders and I'm not black.

And I had a lot of misgivings about doing it for all sorts of reasons I can get into later if we want. I did end up saying yes. It ended up being one of the most fulfilling experiences of my career, probably also of my life. I'm very proud of that program. And more importantly, I'm very thankful for the people that I met, the

because of that program. And part of that experience is actually what led me to writing this book. So it very clearly is an experience that changed the trajectory of my career, turned me from an academic who normally just writes about her academic research to someone who

I actually, I guess I gained confidence in my ability to speak to people's experiences outside of just research.

Thank you for sharing that. And as you were talking about it, I'm not sure why this person came in my mind, but I recently interviewed Lori Santos, who's a peer of yours at Yale. And we started our conversation talking about how she started her course on the science of well-being, which has now become popular.

I guess the most popular course in Yale's history. But she really went into the backstory of she became a den mom, started living on campus and started to hear all these stories of how so many of the students were struggling and that led her to creating the program. And I'm wondering, is there a backstory like that about key things that you focused on with the Executive Leadership Academy?

Maybe not exactly in that way. So what is special about that program and really makes it like it brings it close to my heart. It was a program. So we designed it in 2018 just to, cause I think the year actually matters. And it was because I was, I didn't have a track record and I didn't know

necessarily or even know or care about ruffling feathers, I proposed a program that I wanted to be unapologetically about the Black experience in America. So basically, a lot of the sessions

are very forthright about laying out the research on what it is like to be Black, what it's like to be stereotyped, to experience bias. And it was

I think that approach actually ended up working very well for me in the sense that it was disarming, I think, for a lot of the participants. They had never been in a space where, one, they were surrounded by other leaders who looked just like them and who had incredibly similar experiences to the ones that they had. And it was very affirming for them to finally hear that a lot of the

questions and uncertainties that they had about how they were being treated, that it wasn't just in their heads, that it was something that had been validated by research, but also that others like them had shared those experiences. And it was an incredible bonding experience for them. And it was an incredible bonding experience for me. I was incredibly lucky that it

in being willing to open up about their experiences, they were willing also to open their hearts to me because then I mentioned, right, I'm not black. And I would never claim to truly understand that experience, but I think they could tell that I was incredibly passionate about

Helping people to make sense of that experience and to not just change them. So that was the thing that was really important to me about this program was to ensure that people in the program knew that the problem was not them.

The program was not some sort of remedial program where they had things that they were lacking. The problem was the social environment around them. And that was where the sponsorship component came in.

where we brought in corporate leaders from the region and had them engage with program participants in what was called a mentorship relationship. But in reality, what we were trying to do was get those leaders, many of whom were white, to understand that mentorship is actually, mentorship is great. I'm not saying mentorship is like bad because that's not what I'm saying at all, but it's not enough.

And that sponsorship is really something that they could be doing, more of us could be doing, and is for many people the difference between being able to advance and not. And so I think they could see how much that meant to me personally and how much I really wanted all of them to succeed. And High Cohort One, truly, they're very special to me.

I'm going to lean more into this and explore it a little bit more, and then I'll go into other aspects of your book. But I think this is an important reflection point for people. So I had a previous guest on the program, happens to be a golf coach. And one of the things that was inspirational for me about this discussion is I came out of it with him encouraging me to read the story of Malcolm X. And I read his whole book.

book to understand his life. And it really gave me a completely different perspective of all the things that shaped him becoming him and why he took on such a powerful role and was willing, as I would say in passion struck terms, to risk it all to try to really broadcast this equal rights movement.

And when you were working on this program from someone who's not part of that community, what did you learn by going through it and seeing yourself in someone else's shoes and the trials and tribulations that still exist in modern day America and quite frankly, all over the world?

That's a great question. I was lucky that the client we were working with, so this is the Advanced Leadership Institute, or TALI is the acronym that we use for it. So Evan Frazier is the CEO of

of Talley. He was the one who approached the school to have us develop this program for them. He didn't bat an eye when they proposed me as a potential faculty director. I will say that his partner in crime, Greg Spencer, was definitely not on board. And part of that was because I'm not Black. Part of it is because I

I'm quite young, or at least I look young. And part of it was because I had no corporate experience. And so he thought I didn't have any. Anyway, I was out of my lane. I'm happy to say that I was able to convert him into a believer. He's a good friend and a mentor and a sponsor of mine now. But one of the things that they did was they made sure that I met with

all the constituents that they were dealing with. So it was a lot of other black leaders. I also reached out to my network to talk with black professionals to figure out what would they want out of a program like this. And I think what I really got from all of that kind of research was that I will never understand. And that's okay. Like that is something that I think

all of us should be able to sit with is this idea that we can study things, we can know things in a way, but it's also okay to be intellectually humble and recognize where we can't go all the way on some of these issues. I will never be able to understand, truly understand what it's like to be

a black American, right, or trans or disabled, I will never truly understand that experience as much as I want to.

Thank you for sharing that. The coach I was talking about and want to give his name out initially is Sean Foley. He at one point coached Tiger Woods probably through Tiger's most tumultuous period right after he had the famous event and had to rebuild his career. But the other thing about Sean that's really interesting is he got a full scholarship to play golf, but he got it at Tennessee State University, which is a historically black university.

So he went in having the opposite happen to him as a white Canadian going into pretty much a 99% black school and how it completely changed

his own perceptions of self, but also helped him to lean into the other side and to understand that culture much more, which is why he started reading books by Malcolm and Nelson Mandela and MLK and others. So just thought I'd share that because I really do think there's something there about humanizing the other side and Emile Bourneau's work when you step into the other person's shoes.

Oh, I think I want to be clear that I'm not saying that I don't take the, try to take the perspective of other people. That's not at all what I'm saying. What I do want to

caution people on, however, is that this idea of just because we read it and we can read as much as we want and ironic coming to this statement as an academic, right, who my whole profession is about reading and learning is that we can do all those things and it still may not be enough to truly be to truly be a part of that

group or that to have that experience. And I don't think those are contradictory, but I do want to caution people from coming away and being like, oh, because I've read all these things, I truly, now I truly understand what it's like. Because I also feel like that's a little, that's intellectually a little dishonest too. Yeah. It's almost impossible to, it's a great thing to shift your perspective from understanding

the plight that others face, but until you walk a day in their shoes, you don't really realize the long-term impacts it's had on them from the day they were born up through now. So I wasn't trying to go there with it. I was just trying to say that books like that, and I think the reason Sean encourages so many people to read them is it just gives a good historical perspective in detail

Of all the events that made Malcolm feel less than, and that he wasn't being seen valued as a human being and why he became so resentful and then took on such a large role.

cause and became so passionate about doing something to encourage change. Yeah. Okay. So we're having different assumptions about where people are in their journey, I guess, is where we're perhaps miscalibrated. You're thinking about someone who's starting from a much, a starting line that's maybe a little bit further back than what I was assuming. Well, I think for listeners, we've got all kinds of listeners of various types on the show and

For me, I'm probably a little bit more accustomed to asking questions and thinking about this because my niece and nephew are black. And so I have

It's opened my eyes through hearing their stories and seeing their journeys, what it's like for them and what it's been like for my brother and sister-in-law to raise them. But anyway. I actually think that's a really great kind of segue into some of the things that we, like I talk about in the book, which is how do we come to really know other people? What you're describing is essentially learning about other people's lives, either or experiences that

through reading, right, through reading biographies or memoirs, I think most of us don't have access to that level of insight or personal introspection and personal history in our conversations with other people. But I think what you're pointing to is wouldn't our world be so much richer for it if we were willing to ask those questions?

and be willing to share that type of information with each other. So why maybe some of us need to go to the books because we don't have friends who are different from us, right? And so we can't ask them personally about their experiences. And so we have to get it like indirectly through the books. But what would happen if you started asking some of those questions of the people who you see every day?

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Maine lobster rolls, and even Ina Garten's famous cakes. Seriously. So if you're looking for a gift for the food lover in your life, head to goldbelly.com and get 20% off your first order with promo code gift. Well, a lot of them haven't done that work to really put themselves in another person's shoes. So I think they would probably approach it in a way that comes much more through the lens of their own life without seeing the

the trials and tribulations that others have had to go through and how subtle those can be, but how profound it can be in shaping someone's life and feeling that they're an outsider in a different person's world.

where it's hard to perceive that if you've been the insider your entire life and have never had that perspective of being the outsider. Right. And so actually one of the things that I talk about in the book is just how powerful it is for us to listen. I'm probably thinking about this because I just ran this exercise in my class. I describe it in the book. It's a listening exercise.

where people sit facing each other. I provide a series of questions. And the thing that makes the exercise very challenging is when people are answering the question, they have complete, I wouldn't say control, but basically they have a certain amount of airtime that they're required to fill up by speaking. And the other person is not allowed to respond.

So the other person can only listen. And we do this over three different rounds. The first round is two minutes. The second round is five minutes. The third round is eight minutes. So you very quickly as a speaker learn that you run out of things you want to say about something quickly. And it's really hard for the listeners too, because they really want to interject. They really want to...

talk about how they understand the other person's experience. They want to share about their own experience. But when we're done with the exercise, there's a couple of key takeaways that the students usually come away with, which is one, it's really liberating to speak to someone who doesn't seem to have an agenda about where they want the conversation to go.

And so that's what the whole like not being able to respond part does for them, right? It makes it so that they know that they have this freedom and they end up sharing so much more about themselves than they ever would have imagined. Some of them will say, I haven't even told my partner some of these things, you know? And then for the listeners, what most of them realize is that so many of us listen to respond, right?

We listen because we want to know what we want to say next. Like that, like we're not fully in the moment with the other person when we're listening. And they realized that when they let go of this notion that they had to know how they should respond next, that actually also let them listen in a way that they were not accustomed to.

And so maybe what I would suggest for some of your listeners is if you're looking for an assignment to do, right, is one finding someone you want to learn a little bit more about, but then go into that conversation and see how much you can just listen in that conversation without putting yourself in there. You can ask questions. I think clarifying questions are really good, but turns out we don't

provide a lot of feedback to people who are speaking that guides their behavior and shapes what they're willing to tell us. And so if we can just be a little bit more mindful of those little tells that we give up, you want the other person to know that you're paying attention.

But you don't want them to think that you have a preference as to where they're going to go next. And that's how you can you free up the conversation so that you actually can get some of these insights.

I think that's some really great advice. And for listeners, if you want to take what Rosalind has just said and go even deeper into some of my past episodes, I'd encourage you to look at the ones that featured Alison Wood Brooks. She has a recent book that came out called Talk, and we discussed just this point in our interview. But I would also encourage you to go back and listen to the conversation I had with Charles Duhigg about his book Super Communicators.

and Matt Abrahams and Todd Rogers as well. They're all great episodes on the practice of communication. And I have to tell you Rosalind about an exercise that I did

that similar to what you're describing, it was about communication, but it was about our nonverbal communication. I was doing an improv class and we would do these exercises before the class began. And one of the first ones we did was she would play music and then we would stop and whoever

We were next to, we would do the exercise with, but this exercise was one where you just had to stare at the person for five minutes without saying anything, but try to convey to them an emotion or a thought that you were having. And for me, I ended up getting paired with someone who

was my kid's age. So there was a big age discrepancy. And I remember just sitting through that five minutes feeling like it felt like it was eight hours. Did you get the emotion?

Definitely. I think when they told us what the exercise was going to be ahead of time, I had one emotion I wanted to convey. And then when I actually got paired with the person it was, I mean, it wasn't who I expected it was going to be. I had to change that emotion, so to say. It's a sad, mad, a frad. Yeah.

You're reminding me of this artist whose her exhibition was actually very similar to that was just she was just sitting at a table and then people who were coming to the exhibit were invited to sit across from her, and they would just stare at each other.

And the reason this came across my radar was because one of the people who ended up visiting her was, I think, like an ex-husband of hers. I don't recall the precise nature of their separation, but apparently it was incredibly moving for both of them. Not a word, but just so much conveyed through the eyes. So it does remind me of that.

Absolutely. That, you even notice the most subtle things, the way the mouth moves, not only the way that they're looking at you, but how their body posture changes, whether they're leaning in or leaning out, how their head tilts. There's so much that you get from the nonverbal cues that we typically don't even lean into when we're communicating with someone. Yeah. Well, I want to dive into your book some more. So you open the book with the story of Kim Eng.

If people don't remember who she is, Derek Jeter became part of the ownership for the Miami Marlins and brought Kim in to be the general manager. And she was the first general manager I'm aware of any major sports team. And- Well, the first female manager. Yes, the first female. Yes. And-

As I was reading about this in your introduction, what was significant to me was she's in front of all these reporters in her first question and answer session. And instead of asking her about how she was going to lead the team and about her strategy, et cetera, they started asking her more questions about perseverance. Why did you find that to be so significant?

Because they wouldn't have asked that of a male general manager. Like even after you make it to the top for her, at least in this role, she'd been wanting this role for probably over a decade, had been qualified to take that role probably for over a decade. And even when she got there, she was being treated differently because of who she was and what she represents.

for so many people. And that's an additional burden that I think a lot of people don't necessarily experience if you're not the only person in a particular space. Success, I think success comes with all sorts of responsibilities. I think we all seem to tend to understand that, but it comes with even more when you look different.

And you keep going into this story, and I think it's a good one to make this distinction between mentorship and sponsorship, because Derek Jeter ended up playing a pivotal role for her as a sponsor. So maybe through this lens of their relationship, you can show what's different between a sponsorship type of relationship like they had versus a mentorship one.

Oh, absolutely. And that's actually why I opened the book with her example in particular. It helps that also she was a person of color, a woman in a male-dominated sport where in leadership positions, people tend to be white men. But what really drew me to Kim Ang's example is that there is no version where somebody is going to argue that what she needed was a mentor.

She did not need more mentorship. She had so much more experience, like both inside a team and within baseball, but outside of the team. She worked in the commissioner's office. She worked in the main league offices. She had so much perspective about baseball just from so many different angles.

in a way that other GM candidates didn't. She had been a part of the game for basically since she graduated from college. She did not need mentorship. And what she needed was a sponsor, right? She needed someone who was willing to step up and say, look, you all think this person is risky. If you just tuck

her gender or her race out of the equation. There is no question that she would be the most qualified person for this role. But somebody had to stand up and say that.

That's interesting. I was so glad to hear you write about Derek Jeter because I used him in one of the chapters in my book as well. And I think there's so many things when you start examining his life and you start hearing the stories of past teammates of not only was he a great player, he was such a great rolemodel.

role model for so many of the other team members that he had, which is why he became the captain and I think had such a long career because he really modeled a lot of the values that he wanted his teammates to show on the field. And I imagine as a major league owner, he was probably taking much of the same approach of modeling as an owner what he wanted the whole brand and club to be about.

So I think from a sponsor standpoint, that would have been some great traits for Kim to have with someone like that who would really echo the type of team that she wanted to build. As I think through what would have played had Derek not left that team just a few years later. Well, unfortunately, and then so did she. I think it does also go to speak to how sponsors are really important, right?

And unfortunately for many of us, once our sponsors leave, it also changes the context in ways that make it very difficult for us to continue on in those situations as well. But going back to your point about Jader being a very special person, he certainly was. He cared about, I think, larger questions in terms of inclusion and baseball. He also brought in

female front of house staff, in addition to Kim. So he was at the forefront, I think, of trying to diversify baseball leadership. But again, it's this question of what were other people trying to do that already? And were they just not succeeding?

Or did someone like Derek Jeter need to come along? Like it wouldn't have happened unless someone as big as Derek Jeter was willing to plant his flag in the ground and say, this is important to me. It's important for the sport. And so this is what we're going to do. I think there is that question of how much are other people willing to put behind these sentiments that they say they have?

And then how much of that is tied into how much power and influence they have in their spaces. It's absolutely true. So I could imagine being in an academic setting like you are that let's just say Ed Diener was your sponsor coming into a university. And then after a while, Ed ends up retiring and unfortunately he's passed away at this point, but you were brought in at

as a sponsor him and then he leaves different leadership comes in and you've lost that, that connection, that sponsor who really carried a lot of weight, which can put you as the person who was working under him in a lot of peril. And I think this happens in sports teams too.

It happened to me in work environments more time than I'd like to acknowledge. It happens when you're in a work environment and you ask employees to follow you. And then if something happens to you, there's typically a ripple effect to them. So there are a lot of risks of sponsorship that I think we don't really acknowledge. And it's something that I think you did a great job with of that Derek Jeter relationship with Kim.

Thanks. So that's another thing that I think is worth pointing out to your listeners is that sponsorship is risky in a way that mentorship typically is not. And so in the book, what I, the distinction that I like to make is this question of who is being acted upon.

So mentors are trying to change mentees, trying to get them to be better than who they are, give them advice on how to navigate different situations, tell them what they should do next. But that's all about changing how the mentee is behaving or thinking.

Sponsors are doing something completely different. They're not asking their proteges to be any different than who they are. They're asking other people around them to see the protege differently. So sponsors are actually managing the social environment around their proteges, and they're doing that by leaning on their own social capital. So on the trust that other people have in them.

And what that means is that if you're a mentor and your mentor, your mentee, like doesn't do that well in terms of return on investment. Yeah. You're not getting great return on your investment. Maybe it's zero, right? You've spent a lot of time with this person. Maybe psychologically you're disappointed, but your social capital, for the most part, your reputation is going to be fine. But when you sponsor someone,

and they end up not working out the way that you want or expect or hope, that can come back to bite you in a way again that doesn't happen with mentorship. I don't know. I also go back to Carl in the book. He was a scout for the Astros and discovered Jeter along with other scouts. But he strongly advised the Astros to pick up Jeter.

And they were hesitant to do so because they thought that he was just going to go play baseball at, I think it was like the University of Michigan, or they didn't want to pay him as much as they thought he would want. And so Neuhauser was basically like, if you're going to go out on a limb and pay top dollar for anyone, like this kid is the one that you should be doing that for, right?

They ended up not going with Jeter, obviously, since he ended up going to the Yankees. But this is another risk that sponsors can take on, which is that when you stick your neck out for someone and other people don't listen to you, you start to realize what your relationship is worth to them. And so Carl Neuhauser was so upset about

about the fact that the asterisk didn't listen to him that he actually ended up quitting. He just like straight up left baseball because he said, look, you have always known me as someone who is very even handed in my recommendations. I don't exaggerate people's abilities. And if I can't convince you to take this kid

There's probably no one, you're not going to listen to me about anything else. So then what's the point? So he ended up leaving baseball for that reason. But again, just going back to the risk of sponsorship that we were talking about, it's not just...

If your protege ends up not doing well, that's risky for sponsors. It's also risky for sponsors because then they also find out just how much influence they have. And sometimes we find out that we don't have as much influence as we would have hoped.

That is a great story. And I think it's, we've given a few good examples on the risk sponsorship. I think it's important that on the flip side, we go over some of the greatest rewards of sponsorship, both for the sponsor and the protege. So I was hoping you could dive a little bit into that.

Yeah, on the plus side, well, now Carl Neuhauser, who's known as the scout, correctly identified that Derek Jeter was going to turn out to be a big deal. So, you know, Derek Jeter, he was already famous, so it's unclear how much more famous he could have gotten. But his reputation also benefited from elevating Kim Ang, especially when she ended up

doing so well for the Marlins. People were, it's a losing team. She's not only is she the only, the first and only woman GM that has been hired. She like couldn't have been given a worse team to start off with. She had to turn them around and she was making some pretty significant strides in doing so. I think that really elevated Derek Jeter in the sense that was an indication that like

He's not just doing this for the optics. He actually has a really deep understanding of the game, as you would obviously hope he would, but that he also could see potential where other people didn't. So that lends him more credibility. He ended up getting inducted into the Hall of Fame, I think, either the year after he hired Kim or maybe the same year, but

One of the things that people remarked upon in terms of his selection was not just his athletic history and performance, but also all the remarkable contributions he made off the field. And contributing to the inclusivity and diversity of baseball was definitely one of those things. So the thing that you can get from being a sponsor is

is that you start getting known for one, having a good eye for talent, right? But also your values are very clear. They're clarified in terms of you're showing who you are because you're willing to put skin in the game on the things that you care about.

And so that also raises people's status because you're now more of a known entity to them. They understand who you are, what you care about, and that's a way to get status. You've shown that you are trying to help the group, not just yourself. That's another huge way of getting status. So there's a lot of research that basically shows that

the more we put into elevating other people, the more we personally benefit from doing that kind of thing. And it's not just that the other person benefits, right? So sponsors and proteges both benefit from sponsorship, but so do audiences and so does the larger social ecosystem. So I'm a huge fan of sponsorship because I see it as one of these things where it takes something that could be seen as zero sum

And you make it into something that is actually expanding value for everyone. Thank you for sharing that. And when I think back of Derek Jeter being accepted in the Hall of Fame, I don't have the statistics correct, but I believe he got the most votes of anyone of all time. That's right. If I had my research in the back of my head right and was a first-time, first-ballot Hall of Famer. That's right. That's my understanding as well.

Rosalyn, one of the things that I wanted to go into is that you argue that sponsorship isn't just about who deserves a chance, but about actively shaping how others see them. And I have been doing a lot of work around the topic of mattering, which really plays into this idea of not only do we matter to ourselves, but we are shaped by how other people feel that we matter. How do you think this ends up playing out in the real world?

Oh, I love this. I think sponsorship is a great way to show other people that they matter because you're socially elevating people by sponsoring them. So you're telling other people this person matters and you should pay attention to them.

So in terms of getting other people to feel like they matter, being a sponsor is like an amazing way to make people feel like they matter. And this goes into, of course, my interests in what it's like to be a person who's different from everybody else in different spaces.

Oftentimes, those people have this sense of being really highlighted in those spaces because they're just one of a few of their type. But it's not clear that visibility is the type of visibility they want. And it's certainly not the type of visibility that makes them feel like they matter. To me, mattering is knowing that other people would notice if you were gone.

That's something I was thinking a lot more about. And so when we sponsor other people, we're essentially saying the world is better for having this person in it. And if you weren't aware of them, like that would be very sad for all of us. And so when you think about people who don't get sponsored, basically they're not having someone going out and telling other people about how much

they matter and how much they should miss them if they were not there. So I actually see sponsorship as being a great way of making people feel like they matter. And the beautiful thing about sponsorship, and I think going back to perhaps some of what you're working on, is that when we tell other people that they matter, we start mattering to them. And so if you want to feel like you matter,

then make other people feel like they matter, I guess is like the way that I would put it, right? And the way that I put it in the book is, if you want people to sponsor you, you should sponsor other people first. And just to tie back to mattering, right? We matter to each other only to the extent that we acknowledge and respect and uplift one another. And sponsorship is a great way to do that.

And I want to talk about a couple of the barriers that have gotten in the way of people being sponsored. And one of them has to do with how we started out the whole conversation. So women and people of color often have to prove themselves repeatedly before getting sponsored, which also impacts their sense of mattering, as you just discussed. What can leaders and organizations start doing to break that cycle? Oh, yeah.

That's a really big question that I feel like I need to think on a little bit more. I'm trying to figure out if what you're asking is a more systemic question about what companies as a whole in terms of their policies and procedures could be doing versus what leaders as individuals could be doing. So I'm hoping you can scope the question for me.

I think we tend to sponsor people who sometimes look and feel like who we are. And because of that, it's who we notice. And I think where I'm trying to go with this is what are some ways that we can be more intentional about noticing talent beyond our immediate circles or

zones of safety because oftentimes we don't want to sponsor someone because they look different or feel different or we feel like our sponsorship wouldn't apply to them because they're part of a different community. And I think it's barriers like that get in the way. Okay. I see. Yes. And so I think this is actually where it would be really helpful to go back to what we were talking about at the beginning, which is seeing each other

not in terms of our like skills and abilities. This is especially true in the professional world, right? And being more open to learning about other people in a more holistic way

So when people join your group, not just figuring out, okay, what is your area of expertise? What projects have you worked on? What are your skills that you've demonstrated in the past that I should know about, but more deeply understanding perhaps how those experiences were gained?

what those experiences meant to someone. Because you could imagine that someone has an experience that on paper looks really great, but if you dug a little deeper, you would find out that experience or that achievement was accomplished at great personal cost to them. But that also tells you something very deep.

about who they are. But all of that requires asking really good questions and being really good at listening and letting people feel free to share about those things and not being judgmental about it. I think that's the key that's really hard for a lot of us.

is that lack of judgment. That's why so many of us are hesitant to share that type of information about ourselves because we're worried that we will be judged. But I think it would be, our world would be so much better for it. We would be so much more likely to find things to respect and appreciate about each other if we were more willing to share about those types of experiences.

And that leads me to another situation where many professionals get to the point where they feel uncomfortable advocating for others because they fear it will backfire or potentially cause them political capital loss. What are some ways that a listener can navigate those concerns? My recommendation, and this happens all the time where you have women in leadership roles or people of color in leadership roles.

In a way they're either expected to advocate for other women or people of color, but because of this expectation, their advocacy is diluted or discounted because there's a sense of like, you're just sponsoring them because she's a woman and you're a woman too. And like, you're, this is something you care about. And so like your objectivity is questioned in those sorts of circumstances.

So the best, in my opinion, the best way to deal with that is to essentially sponsor the person you want to help to other people in your network. So say really great things about them, introduce them to other people who are not women, not people of color, but help them build a relationship with the person that you want to see advance.

And then this is not to say that you can't sponsor them, but what you're essentially doing is your coalition building. So you are, you're going to sponsor them, but then you also have someone from the majority group who is there to back you up. Or if you wanted to do it more strategically, they can be the ones to really advocate for that person. And then you can be the one to back them up.

But the key here is to have it just be like, it needs to be more than just one voice. So you need to get other people involved as well. Sponsors should not go it alone. You should never want to be a person's only sponsor. Going back to some of the things we were talking about earlier, right? Where if you go in and your sponsor leaves and you have no other people who are powerful, who are willing to look out for you,

That's a very dangerous position to be in. So if you want to be a good sponsor, don't put your protege in that kind of situation, right? Make sure that you create a network of sponsors who are going to be there for that person. We don't need to hoard talent. That's not the goal. Absolutely. And then my last question for you, Rosalyn, is for the younger listeners who are on the show, how can they...

like interact with sponsors earlier in their careers and take power of this incredible source that can propel them forward. I get this question all the time. It's just being really curious about what other people have done, what's important to them.

Listening to them, asking good questions, not necessarily going in and saying, hey, you have this position that I aspire to be in someday. How did you get there? Tell me how I can get there. Asking just a slight twist, right? Which is, oh, did you always want that?

to be in this position? What led you to be in this position? What does it mean for you to be in this position? What are your underlying motivations for achievement is what you're essentially trying to get at. But once you understand that about someone, like what their underlying passions and values are, that's where the real relationship building block, right? That you need to create these deeper relationships because

When you know and can articulate for them what they stand for, it's going to be a lot easier for you to be able to articulate where you have overlapping aspirations and values. And once you're able to show that, people infer motivation from the fact that we assume, mostly rightly, that we're motivated by our values.

And we also assume that people who are working on things that are consistent with their values are more passionate about that and therefore more motivated and then more likely to be high performers and have high potential. Again, you're not going to be able to make other people see you in that way if you don't understand what their motivations are and find a way to articulate to them how you also share those values and motivations.

So I would be saying to younger folks, think less about the outcome of like, how do I get there? And think more about the why of what led people to the different stages in their career path that enabled them to get to where they ended up. And again, that just, that requires asking really good questions and being a really good listener and

And then being able to articulate what it is that you hope for yourself as well, because that's the other side of the coin, which is people can't really sponsor you effectively if they don't know what you want. The other thing that I would say is don't tell people what you want in terms of the actual outcome, right? Don't say, I want to be an executive director of a, like a top five consulting firm when I grow up like that.

going to want to know why like why do you want that right and if you don't have a good answer for that that's telling as well so what you want to say is something more along the lines of i have this hope that i'm going to make a difference in this way in this particular field that i care about for this reason this is one way i could imagine making that having that impact

But I'm also totally open to the possibility that I could achieve that same goal in any number of ways. But ultimately, the thing that I care about is having this impact. So let's talk about how I can set myself up for that. And I think people will find that much more compelling.

I love that. And I think it's a great place for us to end today. So the question is not what you want, but what impact do you want to make? And I think that's a great way to think about it and the way we should all think about what our long-term desires are.

Rosalyn, it's been a great conversation. Where can listeners go to learn more about you, your book, your work, and to start sponsoring others today? You should look to the people you know already to sponsor. You probably already sponsor other people. You just haven't had a name for it. And there are probably people you know who are amazing

in all sorts of ways that you just haven't asked them about yet. So find out more about the people you already know, and then figure out who you know that should know about these amazing people that you already know. So that's like the very first step I would suggest for your listeners in terms of enacting some of these ideals. In terms of how to stay in touch, I post regularly on LinkedIn. My whole thing is I love to spotlight people

fantastic research that's coming out and putting it in a way that people who are not academics can better understand why the research is important and what they can do with it.

So LinkedIn, if you look for me, Rosalind Chow, that's a great way to follow me. Rosalind, such an honor to have you today. Congratulations on the new book. And thank you so much for taking your time to join us on Passion Struck. Thank you so much for having me on, John. And that's a wrap on today's powerful conversation with Dr. Rosalind Chow. If there's one thing I hope you walk away with, it's

It's this. Opportunity isn't just about climbing the ladder. It's about building the staircase for others. Influence isn't measured by what you say, but by what you're willing to risk for someone else. And inclusion doesn't happen by accident. It happens when we choose to see the invisible. As Rosalind reminded us, sponsorship isn't just a strategy. It's a human act of courage. One person who sees your potential can change your life and

and you have that power too. If this conversation moved you, please take 10 seconds to leave a five-star rating or review on Apple or Spotify. It helps more people discover these ideas and join this movement.

You can also watch the full video episode on the John R. Miles YouTube channel, where we post visual deep dives in exclusive moments you won't hear anywhere else. While you're there, hit the subscribe button. And if you're part of a team, company, or community looking to build a culture of intentionality and purpose, I'd love to speak with you. Visit johnrmiles.com slash speaking to learn more about how I work with organizations around the world

to create lasting transformation. Coming up next on PassionStruck, I sit down with Tom Scharr, Olympic silver medalist and skateboarding legend, to talk about resilience, risk, and

and what it means to push limits, both on the ramp and in life. At the end of the day, I'm very lucky that this gets to be my job. And I remind myself of that every day, not to ever really lose my mind over skating or anything like that. I do take it pretty seriously, and I do try and do the best that I can always. But my job is what I wanted to do when I was a kid, so I'm very lucky in that aspect of it.

But I think a lot of random little kids will come up to me at the skate park and

They tell me how cool it is that I get to do this as my job. And that always reminds me, it's very lucky that I'm not doing something else. Hopefully, if someone watches me skate, it can bring them a little bit of joy or try and inspire kids to be better. I'll try my best to be a good example. Until then, remember the fee for the show is simple. If you found value, share it. But more importantly, live it because knowledge alone doesn't change the world. Action does. Until next time, live life passion-struck.

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