Steve Bowen on Pioneering the New Dawn of Space Exploration EP 448
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Coming up next on Passion Struck. I was literally on top of the space station. We were installing an antenna on top of a space station. And so I kind of clipped myself in and got my hands free and sat back and watched the world pass below me for about 25 minutes or so. And what struck me was the reality that what kind of civilization do we have that allows us

all these countries working together to put people in space, not just to go to space, but really to research and challenge ourselves and to explore and to really improve life on Earth. I grew up carrying buckets of cement for my dad. It was not anything I could conceive of to be sitting on top of the space station

installing an antenna. Sometimes I think we all have to stop and take a look, look around us, look at our environment, just look at the civilization we're living in. It may seem in such turmoil on any given day, but really billions of people are living together and getting along. And that's remarkable.

And I don't think we necessarily appreciate those aspects of it. We actually can solve problems when we all work together. We actually can take care of this incredible planet if we challenge ourselves to understand it and understand how to make it work. - Welcome to Passion Struck. Hi, I'm your host, John R. Miles. And on the show, we decipher the secrets, tips, and guidance of the world's most inspiring people and turn their wisdom into practical advice

for you and those around you. Our mission is to help you unlock the power of intentionality so that you can become the best version of yourself. If you're new to the show, I offer advice and answer listener questions on Fridays. We have long form interviews the rest of the week with guests ranging from astronauts to authors, CEOs, creators, innovators, scientists, military leaders, visionaries, and athletes. Now,

Let's go out there and become passion struck. Hello everyone. And welcome back to episode 448 of Passion Struck, consistently ranked the number one alternative health podcast. A heartfelt thank you to each and every one of you who return to the show every week, eager to listen and learn.

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take the quiz today in case you missed it last week i had some fantastic interviews the first was with psychologist emma sapella i also interviewed marketing expert neil patel and renowned physician dr michael gregor in my interview with emma we discuss her roadmap to psychological sovereignty empowering you to break free from self-destructive beliefs and live life

And lastly, in my interview with Dr. Michael Greger, who's a renowned physician, New York Times bestselling author, and celebrated public health advocate,

He explores his latest groundbreaking book, How Not to Age, a scientific approach to getting healthier as you get older. I also wanted to say thank you for your ratings and reviews. And if you love any of those past episodes or today's, we would so appreciate you giving it a five-star review and sharing it with your friends and families. I know we and our guests love to see comments from our listeners. In today's episode, we have the honor of sitting down with Captain Steve Bowen, a distinguished United States Naval Submariner turned Navy

NASA astronaut. With four space flights under his belt, including commanding SpaceX Crew-6, Steve's journey from the depths of Earth's oceans to the vastness of space is nothing short of extraordinary. We'll explore the pivotal moments that shaped his trajectory from his childhood dreams of engineering to his unexpected journey to becoming an astronaut. Steve shares insights into

overcoming self-doubt and uncertainty, drawing from his experiences as a submariner and ocean engineer. From his record-setting spacewalks to his perspective on the fragility of Earth from space, Steve offers a unique lens into the challenges and triumphs of space exploration. We'll delve into the parallels between life on a submarine and aboard the International Space Station.

uncovering the similarities in daily routines and the pace of operations. Join us as we uncover Steve's reflections on the future of space exploration, his advice for aspiring astronauts, and the profound lessons he's learned about teamwork, adaptability, and resilience along the way. Get ready to be inspired as we embark on this captivating journey with Captain Steve Bowen. Thank you for choosing PassionStruck and choosing me to be your host and guide on your journey to creating an intentional life. Now, let that journey begin.

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Because there are drinks. Then there are drinks from McDonald's. Mix things up with any size lemonade or sweet tea for $1.49. Perfect with our classic fries. Price and participation may vary. Cannot be combined with any other offer. Ba-da-ba-ba-ba.

Earning your degree online doesn't mean you have to go about it alone. At Capella University, we're here to support you when you're ready. From enrollment counselors who get to know you and your goals, to academic coaches who can help you form a plan to stay on track. We care about your success and are dedicated to helping you pursue your goals.

Going back to school is a big step, but having support at every step of your academic journey can make a big difference. Imagine your future differently at capella.edu.

I am absolutely thrilled and honored to have astronaut Steve Bowen on PassionStruck. Welcome, Steve. Well, good morning. How are you today? I am, man. I'm doing great. I always love it when I get an opportunity to talk to an astronaut because I'm so fascinated by the work that you have done. And I myself have been on submarines, so we can talk about that in a bit as well. Well, I want to start with your backstory. I understand as a kid, you dreamed of being an engineer.

How did that passion lead you to wanting to attend the Naval Academy? Well, that's an interesting question. When I was little, looking back in the dark ages there, I actually watched Neil Armstrong walk on the moon. And so I was five years old or so, and that was pretty remarkable. So the whole space program, science was news. It was really exciting. And I think that sort of struck up my interest in engineering and science. And I really enjoyed it.

all of that going through school. And so I continued to do well in it and I developed an interest in a lot of different engineering. So like when the time came to apply to colleges, I applied to a lot of engineering schools knowing that I wanted to be an engineer of some form. I really didn't understand exactly what each of the different engineering disciplines were exactly, but I had a rough idea. And so going to the academy, I got to sort that out and I ended up being an electrical engineer at the academy and ultimately got an engineer's degree at MIT for ocean engineering. So

Yeah, it was just in my interest as a kid. I brought it along and I really developed it through that. Yeah, I have an interesting historical tidbit for you. I was actually on the brigade honor staff when we had the electrical engineering cheating scandal in the class right below me. Oh, wow. Yeah, so I had always thought that was one of the most difficult classes I ever took. So congratulations to you on getting through that as a major.

Well, yeah, as a major, we didn't have to take that class. We took all the other classes around it. It's so funny. I interviewed Vice Admiral Ted Carter, our former superintendent, and Kayla Barron came up on this discussion and he was saying, Kayla was my aid. And one day she talked about becoming an astronaut and she started talking about all the self-doubt and there's no way I could ever become it. And he goes, well, you never know.

until you apply. Kayla, you got to apply. And I understand you applied for NASA on a whim, not thinking you would ever be selected and you were in a pool of over 8,000 applicants. What inspired you?

Yeah, it's interesting. I was on shore duty in 1998, and the Navy message came by basically talking about astronaut selection. And at that point, we were just initiating the space station program. And I thought, well, my submarine background, I thought that was a very similar environment. And so I was looking, I really enjoyed being a department head on a submarine. It was a great opportunity to drive the boat. I was never going to have that experience.

type of experience on the boat again. So I applied not thinking I would ever get selected. What's the worst they can say? No. And there was no skin off my back in a sense. And if you don't challenge yourself to do this, to volunteer for things or apply for things, you're never going to go anywhere. So it wasn't necessarily a total whim in a sense that it had been crossing my mind through the years, never knew anybody that actually had applied.

to be an astronaut. So when the opportunity came up, I just followed the directions and I didn't meet really meet an astronaut until I became one. And that's when I found out that was not necessarily the normal way to do it. No, not at all. And our podcast is really about behavior change and the intentional actions that we take. I was hoping maybe given this background, could you share a pivotal moment in your journey where you had to overcome self-doubt or uncertainty?

Because a lot of people have aspirations like being an astronaut, but they're unwilling to make the gamble to actually go down the path because of self-doubt. What would be your advice to them?

Well, it's actually goes a lot further back than that because the application is, like I said, there's no cost in applying. I mean, it's not going to necessarily affect my job, not going to affect anything like that. The more crucial ones are whether it be at the academy or in the submarine force, when you're challenged with difficulties that do affect what you're going to do. There always is that option of not doing the hard thing.

And I always found it a lot more interesting. And a friend of mine used to quote me back to myself because I told him, I said, I like doing things the hard way because it's easier. And the logic of that was if you try and do the more difficult things, what you learn in that process opens up new opportunities and new places to go. So when I talk to kids, I talk about the fact that

As a first grader, in the good old days, teachers would tell you things like, Steve, you are in the lowest reading group. So this is, I'm pretty young. He's saying, you're in the lowest reading group. And I'm a pretty stubborn person. I did not want to be in the lowest reading group. And I worked really hard that year to move up to the highest reading group. And so what I learned from that and followed along is anytime that there's a class, they're teaching it to us for some reason.

And so I always tried to do a little bit more effort in the classes. I was not necessarily doing well and not necessarily enjoying, just so I could understand why we were learning that. And I think that provided opportunities along the way. And so when challenged, whether it be in the nuclear pipeline for submarines, there are opportunities there where you could just

You're still going to have a fine career doing something, but it's hard. That's a hard thing to get through those classes and those courses. And so I always look at the astronaut application process. That wasn't so hard. And it was everything along the way to be in a position that those opportunities are available to you. I think that's the biggest thing is you want to, I tried to make sure I had all the opportunities still available to me as long as I could.

Now, one of the things I've talked about on this show is this concept of activation energy, meaning if you think of something on two axes where energy is on one side, intentional action is on the other, and you picture a person trying to push a boulder up a hill, it's at first very high activation energy to get that boulder up. But once you get it moving, it becomes less and less.

What role do you think taking purposeful action and lessening this activation energy play a role in achieving long-term goals?

I think that is critical. And like I said, I think if you continuously try and push, try and do the best you can and try and learn new things. To this day, I enjoy learning and trying to achieve new goals. My physical capabilities aren't what they used to be, but I'm still out there challenging myself physically. I think that keeping that momentum going.

mentally, physically, spiritually, however you want to put it, is really important. I think that just makes everything a little bit easier. When you do come to a point where you come to a halt,

As you said, getting that activation energy, getting that first step going is huge. And a lot of times, and the physical aspects of it, if you stop working out for a little while and you start working out again, that first attempt, you might not succeed. You'll end up stopping for another couple of days or another week or two, and you'll start again. But you need to get rolling. And I think that's the biggest thing is to keep moving.

Yeah, thank you for that. And for the listeners who aren't familiar with this, there's actually an underwater habitat off the coast of the Keys called the Aquarius Reef Base. And I was talking to astronaut Nicole Stott, who told me about her experiences of being an aquanaut, and that NASA has sent many people down there because it's the best on Earth experience they have to compare to being on the ISS.

And I was wondering, because you were the first submarine officer to be selected as an astronaut, how do you think your background as a submariner or that background

Aquanaut experience Nicole went through influenced your approach to space exploration? And do you see commonalities between the two? I was always surprised when I showed up here that I was the first submarine officer selected because it seemed like a natural fit. And NASA actually had studies going back to the early 1970s saying, hey, this is one of the populations we should be pulling from if we're looking for a long duration space flight.

The thing I thought was interesting when also when I first showed up 25 years ago, we essentially just starting the ISS experience.

I had several doctors here who had looked at the submarine environment and spent a few days on board a submarine. And their comments basically were, oh, there's nothing similar. Submarine is too big. You have too many resources, et cetera. The thing that struck me now that I'd done an increment was how similar it really was as an experience. My first flight on Mars,

Back in 2008, the first thing I noticed when I crossed over to the space station from the space shuttle was that it smelled like a submarine, which was not a nice thing to say about any place. But you get used to that pretty quick. And the environment itself was very submarine-like. A lot of the engineering and technology used on board space station initially came from the submarine force because it's an enclosed environment. So...

So the physical environment was very similar. And the amount of space you had on space station was greater than I ever had on a submarine. Operationally, though, it was very submarine-like. You fall into that daily routine of getting up, getting your work done, working basically at 730 to 730. On a submarine, you had a rotating schedule, which was not as easy to deal with.

but every day was a little bit different, but somewhat the same. You're doing science, you're doing research. You have to work in your workout, all of these things are the same. And then you'd have a week at a time or a few days at a time where you're working really hard together as a team to accomplish some goal, like an EVA coming together to get people out the doors and safely do that work and bring them back inside. And that was also very submarine like. So, um,

The experience of ISS was very much a submarine deployment. And I had the opportunity in November to talk to a submarine group and it really made me realize exactly how much of that is true. Aside from the physical differences, the operational things are very similar. I thought it was true. I just verified it was true.

Yeah, I was on the Baltimore, the Phoenix and the Cincinnati, all LA class boats. But there's something about that smell that I can never get it out of my head. And I understand. You can never get it out of your clothes either. Oh my gosh. It's been 25 years, 27 years since I left the boats. And I remember digging something up last year in the E's.

And that suit, that coverall, the poopy suit had that odor. That said, still after all these years. And the crazy thing is you can wash it 20 times and it just never comes out. Never goes away. It's an amazing thing.

Is my research correct that the oxygen generators on the station are the same as the ones on the Virginia-class submarines? Pretty much exactly the same. So one of my first jobs after my initial astronaut training, I was working on ISS systems. And so we had not flown the oxygen generating assembly to space yet. It was still in development.

But I went up and visited the company and the guys pulled me aside and said, hey, you want to see your old oxygen generator? And the same company, same cells, same system as Virginia class, obviously highly modified, but basically the same technology on the Virginia class as we do have on the space station. Obviously on the space station, you're only dealing with seven people. On a submarine, you have a hundred and something people to deal with. But it was interesting because that really, again,

made me realize how similar technology is. Yeah, when I was talking to Chris Cassidy, who for the listener, he was my Naval Academy classmate, an astronaut similar to Steve, he told me how beneficial it was for his SEAL training when it came to the astronaut program in terms of teamwork and leadership. And I can see how his close team environment would simulate what it would be like being on

the ISS, but did you find a lot of commonalities as well in teamwork and leadership between the two? Oh, absolutely. We have a hundred something people on board submarine, but on a watch section basis, if you're maneuvering or if you're in control, you're actually directly dealing with for six hours at a time, four, five, six other people. And that is

was very similar to being on space station. The biggest difference is once on the space station, you end up operating independently for a great deal of the time because everybody's, they split everybody up to get the most work and you get a lot of your support directly from the ground with people with cameras, basically supporting what you're doing to make sure you're following

all the procedures well. So there's that difference that you end up independently doing it. But that's also true of the watchstanders out in the spaces on the summer. You don't have direct access to them either. So it's just very similar in that structure of how things get done in that small team aspect, which is very different

than a larger military organization where you don't have that small team aspect, that real ability. You have to directly communicate with people to get the work done. So those personal relationships that allow you to communicate clearly are really important. And then just the communication discipline. When you're talking to people that aren't directly in front of you, like when we talked to the ground from space,

Trying to impart the information clearly and in a way that everybody understands the intent is another skill that you have to learn. And that you also get in the military or the submarine force. Pulling up to Mickey D's just for drinks. Oh, yeah, that's me. Nothing extra, just perfection and a straw. Coming in hot for the coldest cups on the block.

Because there are drinks. Then there are drinks from McDonald's. Mix things up with any size lemonade or sweet tea for $1.49. Perfect with our classic fries. Price and participation may vary. Cannot be combined with any other offer. Ba-da-ba-ba-ba.

Imagine earning a degree that prepares you with real skills for the real world. Capella University's programs teach skills relevant to your career, so you can apply what you learn right away. Learn how Capella can make a difference in your life at capella.edu. Thank you, Larry. Thank you. Yeah, especially now that you're flying up there with astronauts who are from different countries and you've got other countries involved with it. Yeah, I can imagine that making sure the communications is right is paramount. Absolutely. Absolutely.

I always love to talk to astronauts about the sensation that they feel seeing the Earth from space, and many people call it the overview effect. But when I was talking to Wendy Lawrence about it, I think she gave the best description I've heard. And she said to her, when she saw the Earth and then saw it in the greater context of space, she described the planet

as being fragile, meaning she understood how many things were interconnected and how vital it was that these things maintain a certain order. Would you describe it in a similar way?

Oh, absolutely. One of the things that you do get from space that you don't get from anywhere else is exactly how thin the atmosphere is when you look at the horizon. That's a very thin atmosphere. We use 100 miles, I mean, 100 kilometers or 50 miles, depending on whose standards you're looking at as to where you're in space. And if you think of that

hundred kilometers relative to the radius of Earth, it's really thin. And so you really see that in a lot of photographs from space. You'll see how thin the atmosphere is. And that's where all of our life exists. It's the planet itself, the oceans. It's such an interconnected world. And we're just in the void on this little world, interconnected in a very fragile environment. So yeah, Wendy sums it up pretty well.

Well, thank you for that. It's just something that I wish we all could experience because I think it would make us all live a little bit differently down here on the planet. It's funny we say that. And I do think that

It's probably because of the age as we are. I think long before we ever became astronauts, long before we ever flew in space, we've seen those pictures from Apollo 8 and later of Earthrise or Earth from outer space. I think those lessons are built into our upbringing at this point. We do see the Earth as an orb in a void.

And you do understand that everything on that earth is what supports life down here. So I do think that is a lesson that is already built into us. But what I don't think, and I think what we do get the opportunity to do from space, is we get that opportunity to take a moment and think about it. Whereas down here, oftentimes, we never stop or slow down. Last week,

I had the opportunity to watch Totality in Cleveland and during the eclipse itself, well before the eclipse started, the actual totality started, I was talking to someone, I said, "You're going to see something we cannot really see from space station. We're going to have four minutes basically of the moon completely covering the sun. It's going to be dark outside. The environment around you is going to change dramatically." And

This experience, you need to pay attention to it. That gives you a sense of the wonder and awe of the universe that we should all feel. And as from my experience, often I tell the story of being outside doing a spacewalk and the ground calls up and tells me to stand by. And having been around a little bit at that point, when the ground says stand by, it's going to be more than a few minutes.

So I was literally on top of the space station. We were installing an antenna on top of the space station. And so I put myself in and got my hands free and sat back and watched the world pass below me for about 25 minutes or so. I was overlooking the Russian segment. And what struck me was the reality that what kind of civilization do we have that allows us, all these countries working together to put people in space and

Not just to go to space, but really to research and challenge ourselves and to explore and to really improve life on Earth. And I grew up carrying buckets of cement for my dad. It was not anything I could conceive of to be sitting on top of the space station, installing an antenna. It's sometimes I think we all have to stop and take a look, look around us, look at our environment, click.

Eclipse was a great natural indication, but just look at the civilization we're living in. It may seem in such turmoil on any given day, but really billions of people are living together and getting along.

And that's remarkable. And I don't think we necessarily appreciate those aspects of it, that we actually can solve problems when we all work together. We actually can take care of this incredible planet as we challenge ourselves to understand it and understand how to make it work.

I just interviewed a person earlier this morning named Noam Platt, and he's an architect down in New Orleans who has building adaptive technology for children who have disabilities. And he was telling me about this recent project that he was working on.

where they were interfacing with a person in Pakistan and some people in Israel and other parts of the world. And because they were using open source and collaborating,

he was talking about how much it speeds up their overall development and how when they're building these technologies, not only is it helping the recipient, perhaps in Pakistan, but they're then able to use that to speed up the delivery of mechanisms to help people out throughout the world. And when I think of things like climate change,

and the systems change that we're going to need to do to make that come to fruition. It's stories like Noam's and yours that bring me so much hope that we collectively can work on these things if we get aligned.

And it's really amazing to me. I've had the opportunity over the past 25 years or 24 years or so to work with a number of different countries. And it's really interesting to see how other cultures solve problems, how they approach problems. One of the most amazing things about Station and really it's the engineering side of me, which says we had all these modules on Earth that never really met each other until they got to space. And they all fit and they all worked.

which meant that all these different countries building to the same standard, the same set of criteria were able to meet those requirements. And they all solve these problems in different ways. And it's amazing to see how that comes together when you have these different cultures and different ways of approaching problems and how much quicker and more robustly you can solve these things. Yeah, absolutely. Well, Steve, I wanted to take you on a history trip on some of your missions and

STS-126 was the one that you were talking about when you were doing the assembly mission of the ISS. And I wanted to ask, when you've got so much going on up there, how do you stay focused amidst all the challenges and distractions that can be a part of space exploration?

Well, that's part of our training. I think that's part of how they select us. We want to make sure we have people that can focus. And 126 had the additional challenge of being my first flight. So I really credit it to the training. So when we train on the ground, we try to get the fidelity as high as possible. And one of the major reasons to do that is the space environment is so alien, so foreign that you cannot really simulate it.

So it's important that you can get there as close as possible. It's like when you're doing a spacewalk. We train in the MBL, which is a giant swimming pool. We actually have a space station mock-up submerged in a swimming pool. We get in the spacesuit at the MBL. It's a downgraded version of the actual spacesuit, so it feels very similar. Your tactical environment, the work that you're doing, it looks very similar. You're just doing the same thing. You get to orbit, and it amazed me

How little I wasn't prepared for. Obviously, the environment itself was the big changes. The actual work, the task, getting things done were not that much of a distraction in a sense because they weren't that different. So the ability to focus in a foreign environment, I think that's probably higher for that ability. But it is something you have to concentrate on. And so you fall back on your training and your training will keep you safe.

Yeah, it's interesting that you bring that up because I was talking to Chris about his time as the chief astronaut leading that office. And I was telling him, what are some of the complications that come with that job? And he goes, well, one of the biggest ones is scheduling. And he brought up something I never even thought about. He said, just like any other discipline that you have going on in a business that some people are better equipped for and there are others...

that are better equipped for something else. And he said, one of the key things is spacewalks. He goes, some people absolutely excel at it and other people do not. So if you are having a mission that's going to require extensive spacewalks, it completely changes your crew configuration. And I understand for you, because of your spacewalking prowess,

It led you to becoming the first and only astronaut to fly on consecutive shuttle missions, STS-132 and 133. Can you talk about what happened there and how that came about? It was a little odd. We landed on STS-132, which was another assembly mission. We call it the first last flight of Space Shuttle Atlantis.

And when we landed, the office basically told us there's no more shuttle flights. And so I started focusing on my Russian and was hoping to get a space station flight. And for STS-133, I was one of the family support astronauts. I was down there because

A lot of members of that crew were classmates of mine. Five of the six people flying on that flight were classmates of mine. And I was down there to help their families, make sure they got everything taken care of. Well, they had a major anomaly with the tank prior to launch. It was late October, early November of 2010. And so we go back to Houston. They've got a scheduled launch date now of February.

In January, I get a call that the lead space walker on that flight, Tim Kopra, had been injured in an accident and that there was a high probability he wouldn't be available to do the flight. And because at the time I was the lead in the EVA branch, the space walking branch for the office, the head of the office and the deputy called me in so we could go through the names, the list. And so I thought it was pretty easy. We have ratings within the training program.

And so I took the top names that were still in the office, still available because we had pretty high attrition at that point. And I gave them a list of eight names and we talked different levels of concern. I can say, okay, so if you take any of these eight people, you should be fine. Next level down, there's a little bit higher risk if you use some other combination of the training. And for each of those first eight names, I gave a very complimentary thing. I say, well, you take this guy because he could do this, take this person because they can do that.

And when I got to my name, because I was met the qualification, it would look weird to leave myself off the list that they all knew I was on. I said, don't pick me because I made the list. And I often think they picked me to spite me because I made the list. So it was a unique opportunity. So six weeks from launch, I get added to the flight team.

And fortunately, I had not basically brain dumped all the shuttle knowledge I had. And this is what I talk to kids about when they're taking tests and when they're going taking classes. As I said, the teachers are teaching you something for some reason.

don't just get rid of all that information after you take the test thinking you're not going to use it again. So fortunately I had retained all of my space shuttle knowledge sufficiently that they didn't have to add that back into my training. And they were able to turn me around in six weeks, do a couple NBL runs to get myself up to speed. I was already familiar with the procedures based on my position in the office. And so we launched and launched on time in February and able to conduct a few EVAs and get back home safely. And the team, again,

That crew, they picked up the slack and all the other areas that I was not going to be able to help out on. Tim's position was not just the lead spacewalker, but he was also on the flight deck. And so Nicole and Bialdin Drew stepped in there and took care of the flight deck requirements. So again, it's a whole team coming together to solve that problem. And I wanted to ask you about your EVAs. With 10 EVAs under your belt, my understanding is you're tied for the most excursions by a U.S. astronaut.

What are some of the most memorable moments from your spacewalks? Every one was unique and interesting. Some of the highlights, interesting observations. One of my early ones, I actually saw a meteorite enter the atmosphere below me, and that was really cool. Wow. I was used to seeing those from the ground and looking up. I was up there looking down, and I saw a meteorite streak across the sky and entered into the Earth's atmosphere. And

It was great and stuff, but I thought for a moment, that rock was just out here with me a few minutes ago. So it really brings home the MMOD, micrometeorite and debris issues with space. Keeping the space clear, that's the highest risk for a space station is it's going to get hit by something. So that was a pretty unique experience. Another one was also on an early spacewalk was we were coming up over New England and

And if you don't know, the reason we can see space station from the ground is that the space station is still in sunlight and we're in darkness.

So there's a certain set of unique circumstances. It happens somewhere all the time, obviously. As the space station's entering into darkness, it's still in sunlight, but below you, you can look down and it's dark. And we were coming up over New England and I was laughing. I was like waving down to my family and friends down there. But sure enough, I get back and they were waving up at the same time. So I thought that was a unique experience. I talked about being

having the opportunity to contemplate the space station because we had to wait on the ground, having the opportunity in this past couple EVAs to go out with Sultan Ali for his first spacewalk and Woody Hoberg's first spacewalk was just tremendous, just great people.

And having the opportunity to be out there with them, that was, I really enjoyed that. It had been 13 years since I had done a spacewalk and this was their first. And it was just, I had time to think about it. It was really an amazing experience.

Yeah, there's something about seeing the space station from Earth that is just awe-inspiring. And I've only been able to see it one time, and it came right over my house here in the Tampa Bay area. I mean, it was as if it came directly over the house, and it was just so incredible to see it. But also, it goes so fast that it really gives you about 30 seconds to a minute to watch it. There are some apps out there that will help you if you want to go outside and see it.

I always suggest people go outside when they have the opportunity and bring out good food because they're up there eating space food, which is great for the environment that we have in, but it's not quite what we have on the ground. So that's a good opportunity to go outside and wave and really think about the fact that we've had people permanently living in space for almost 24 years now. There's over a third of the population of the Earth.

As long as they've been alive, people have been living in space. And I don't think we comprehend what that actually means. It's an amazing accomplishment. Yeah, I've never thought about it like that. And you're right, that perspective changes everything about it and makes it more plausible to think about us doing more excursions further into deep space exploration.

Yeah, absolutely. The value of exploration, there's the obvious what we learn and how we bring that back down to earth. And when we challenge ourselves to explore, we often look back at Apollo and the things we learned from Apollo, whether it be the engineering side of the communications, the navigation, those things that we learn.

It's not just the science. It's the science, the engineering. We challenge ourselves with these things and it makes life better here. But Stephen Hawking and one of my other heroes, John Young, both said essentially the same thing, which is single planet species don't survive. We have to find a way to preserve our Earth as long as we can. But ultimately, in a few million years or whatever it takes, we're going to have to leave this place and go someplace else to find someplace inhabitable.

Absolutely true. And I'm going to ask you a couple of questions about that later on. I wanted to ask you one last thing about EVAs. I have to give NASA and the overall community a ton of credit because we have become so accustomed to seeing EVAs performed.

And the safety record is incredible. But at one time, they were thought to be extremely dangerous. And people even wondered, could you build the ISS? Because there was so much fear in the safety measures around it. I say all this leading up to Chris Cassidy's spacewalk that he did with Luca Parmitano. And the way that Chris tells me about this, he makes it seem like it was just this routine thing.

spacewalk and it was his training and he got Luca back in. But for people who don't know the story, Luca

is an Italian astronaut. I believe he was on a second spacewalk and he's out there with Chris. And during this, he starts feeling liquid in his helmet. And he at first thinks it's just sweat. And it turns out to be a magnetic liquid that starts filling up his helmet. And unlike here on earth where the liquid would go down, it's building up right around his eyes and his nose. How

dangerous was that predicament actually from the standpoint of a layman of what they were experiencing and what

I mean, Chris describes it as routine, but how big a hurdle was that trying to get Luca into their hatch when I understand it was dark outside, he's having to flip them over and guide them and everything else. Can you just give your perspective on that? Oh, no, it was an incredibly dangerous day and he really could have died. He really could have drowned. It was not a light thing. And so when they, it took a while for,

for the ground to realize what was going on. Chris was operating as a lot of spacewalks, they're not right next to each other. So Chris had to come back and get Luca and get him inside. And Luca could not see, he was not going to be of much help to Chris getting back inside. He was looking for opportunities as to where to breathe in that helmet because the water does pool.

And Karen Nyberg was on board. I think that's who the other crew member was. Once Chris got him in, got the hat shut, they repressed and got him out very quickly. And again, that falls back on the training. You want to be highly trained. We used to joke about 90% of our training being done with after the first 10, 12 minutes of a shuttle flight. But you really want that 90% to never, you almost never want to use it because that's really the stuff that you rely on when things go bad.

And in this circumstance, things went really bad. And we, at the time, the suit been 10 years since that event, and we're still operating the same suit. We've modified a few things. We've added some features, but they all bring little complications. So you talked to Kayla before, and Kayla literally did her space walk in a suit that's older than she is.

We have not really developed a new suit since the 1970s. So the opportunities to have a new suit coming online here in the next few years is a big deal.

And I don't necessarily have my personal opinion as to how we should have done that and how we didn't do it the way I would have done it. But it's going to be a marked improvement in mobility and safety. We have learned a lot over the past 50 years as to how to build and design these things. But the EMU, the suit we currently use for spacewalks, there's that engineering balance. How do they solve problems they couldn't model? How that system and suit interacts that every time

When we went and took the suit apart to understand this problem in particular, the balance built into that design, we didn't really understand it. And so until we broke it down and really got into the problems with the suit. And we continue to challenge ourselves to find the problems with the suit, even as hopefully in the next few years, we won't be using this one anymore. But it was a real no kidding problem. And we've had problems. Fortunately, that was the only EBA product

problem of that extent that we've run across. We have had other problems during EDAs. We've had problems before we started EDAs and after EDAs that weren't as hazardous, but still, if we had not tried to fix them or just not really paid attention to what the suit was telling us, it could have been just as hazardous.

Yeah, I remember Chris telling me that he got Luca into the air chamber and he said that was some of the most stressful time for him because people don't realize you're in there for what, 20, 30 minutes. And he said it was just this time period where he could see the water growing in size and he was doing everything in his power to keep Luca calm so he wouldn't freak out about what was happening.

and it's chris the part he doesn't tell you there that really his experience his capabilities really

helped him a lot because getting the hatch shut once you're in there with two people in there is not trivial. Some people, it takes a long time to get that hatch shut and sealed and get the procedure going. So I have said in the past that if this had been two other people, it may not have had the outcome it did because they were both incredibly capable people. And it was not a good day. I will tell you that.

Earlier in the conversation, you mentioned studying Russian so that you could hopefully get a launch from Russia. And as I was chatting back and forth with Chris today, he told me to ask you about how he stole your two Soyuz crewmates. He did. He actually did. So yeah, yeah, there's that whole thing. So Chris and I, there was a period of time when...

The commercial crew program was not moving along as quickly as we thought we needed to. So there was going to be a problem with the ability to actually do spacewalks on board the space station. So Chris and I were assigned to help train cosmonauts to do spacewalks. And so there was one person on his crew and one person on my crew that we did NBL runs. We were training so that they could do spacewalks with us.

And getting ready to launch Chris. So this is beginning of 2020. I had trained with my crew for a year and a half and he had trained with his crew. Well, one of his crew members was injured, similar to this earlier discussion, and was not actually going to be able to fly on his Soyuz.

And we can't blame it on West Point training in this case. No, we cannot blame it on that. I'm sure Chris has told you what happened. It was just a freakish thing. And so suddenly he did not have a crewmate. And when you have a backup crew, because I was Chris's backup crew, I was slated to fly the next flight with my crew that I trained with. And they took both my crew members and moved them up to Chris's flight.

And the irony, and Chris may not have even known this, is that the day this happened, the lead Russian cosmonaut for the Soyuz had literally sent me our patch with my name on it saying, hey, we got you the patches. This is going to be great. And yeah, later that day, it wasn't so great because suddenly I didn't have my crew anymore. Now he took my crew. They were a great crew. They would have been awesome to spend six months with on orbit. That was, yeah, I liked my crew.

I like the crew that gave me as a, for the, just for the backup flow. I had another crew that showed up just to get through the backup training. Cause again, the Soyuz launch it's scheduled. I mean, up until basically a day or two before the launch, they would swap crews if they had to. And so I had a backup crew that I trained with for those last few weeks, which was really a good group of people. Would have been fine to be in space with them too.

I actually asked Chris, was he nervous about launching on the Suez? And he said, absolutely not. I was actually less nervous launching on that than the space shuttle because the design is so basic and so ingenious that I was so comfortable with the way that they've developed this technology that he goes to me, it was no sweat.

Well, it's been launching the same sort of vehicle essentially has been launching for 60 years or so now. It's a robust design. It's been obviously hundreds of flights. Shuttle was an incredible piece of technology, but it was a very complicated piece of technology. And I joked that when I got off 133 and I looked at Discovery, we walked around it after landing, said it was fantastic.

Probably you could have stood it up on end and launched it again if we had had the SRVs and this tank and everything else to go with it. We were just figuring out how to fly that thing as we retired it because it was so complicated. It was an amazing technology. Yeah. And Steve, you were one of the few astronauts who's been both on the space shuttle and now SpaceX where you were the crew dragon commander. Yeah.

on NASA's sixth commercial crew rotation. How different do you find the commercial experience compared to the NASA experience? Was the workup very similar or are they very different? Well, it was very different in the sense that for SpaceX, for the Dragon training, it was a lot of it was out in California and out in Hawthorne.

And one of the advantages to that, because of the way we train for space station missions here in Houston, it's hard to schedule people to be together all the time. So getting to know your crew, obviously I had met my crew before. I had not met Andrei Fedayev until he was assigned, really. I guess I had seen him. Sultan, I had met when I was in Star City and Huzzah flew over.

as the first UAE astronaut of the Soyuz, but Sultan was his backup and so I had spent, I met them then. Woody was a class of 2017, so I had spent some peripheral time, but you really didn't get to know people. And so being in California with the crew, you really spent more time getting to know your crew. And so that was a benefit in that regard, but it's not here in Houston. And you

Here we tend to, we get a little bit different. So the workup and training was different in that regard. The space station training I'd been through several times. That's always been the same. It's a lot of systems. The Soyuz travel was gone. It just was replaced by Hawthorne travel, which was a lot easier. So that aspect was very different.

But the concept, that's the big change. So the space shuttle was built to build a space station way back at the beginning of time. That's a pickup truck. It was an amazing vehicle well ahead of, looking back on it, you scratch your head is what were they thinking? How did they get this done? But it was a remarkable vehicle.

That was incredibly complicated. So the object for both SpaceX and Boeing when they got these contracts was to build something basically to get you to space safely and get you to space station safely. So you have to launch, get to low Earth orbit and go dock with space station and come home. It didn't have all those other mission requirements. But some things are pretty much the same. You still start at zero miles an hour.

And you end up at 17,500 miles an hour, eight minutes later. So that didn't change. The ride was a bit different. There's some details there, but some of it is very much the same. It's interesting because Wendy Lawrence told me a backstory that I never knew. When President Bush signed the orders to retire the space shuttle, I guess they gave these companies the opportunity to bid on being a supply craft and they could bid on

Also doing crew and SpaceX took the risky gamble of building a spacecraft that could do both. And I guess they realized that they might be farther behind at the beginning, but if they perfected this, they would leapfrog everyone else. And it's incredible. They had that foresight and you can see what it's done for them now.

Yeah, their launch vehicle, the Falcon 9, I mean, it's the same launch vehicle every time. And they fly, I think it's going to be over 100 times this year, which is pretty remarkable to get that much experience with a single launch vehicle. The Cargo Dragon and Crew Dragon are similar but different. But you're right. I mean, that was a risky step, especially for a company that really had no track record.

Hopefully we get Boeing off the ground next month. That'll be really exciting to get them in the mix, providing that access to low-earth orbit as well. And there'll be other companies in the future. It's going to be exciting. Steve, I just have two questions left for you. I read in a previous interview that you did that you believe we have the technology and capability to embark on a Mars mission now. What steps do you believe need to be taken to make missions to Mars and the moon a reality?

Well, moon is a great stepping point, right? I mean, it's a great place to go and learn. Again, I'll go reference John Young. He used to joke when he talked to us that the moon's only three days away from a can of beans. So if you go there and something doesn't go right, you can get home pretty safely. Mars is very different. Obviously, it's depending on how you get there.

I believe that one of the big things we have to do is get there fast and get home quickly because the space environment is not benign. It's a lot more dangerous environment than we knew when we sent people to the moon the first time. One of the big risks for the Artemis crew is they're going to be outside essentially the Earth's magnetic field.

field, which protects us all. And they'll be out at the moon. So that's a huge thing. And looking what we will learn on the moon, one of the important things we're going to have there, we'll have fission power for surface power for electricity, because we're going to be in a place that does not have sunlight available to it. And we'll be in darkness. So in order to get power out of the dark, nuclear fission is going to be an important thing that we develop that will allow us

not just to get power, continuous power, reliable, safe power on the moon. And just as we get 20% of our power here on earth from safe and reliable nuclear power, it's going to be critical for us to reach Mars. And I really think that's how we can get there. If we chose to invest and challenge ourselves to go to Mars quickly, that is how we're going to do it. It's going to be a nuclear system that's going to take us there, take us back, give us that ability, that power that

capability of getting home again. That is the biggest technological thing. But what we're going to learn on the moon is everything else. And we'll be learning a lot of things when we get there, not just the science, being an engineer. I come back to one of the greatest things we get out of NASA is the engineering challenges that we overcome. And that's going to be a big part of it. I know Kayla sells herself short and her capabilities. But as I was looking at her background, I

And she thought there was no way in heck that they were going to select her. But I look at her background, not only is she a Samaritan, but she's got advanced graduate degrees from Oxford in clean nuclear power technology. Yes, she does. She says that. And I met her. I met her first at an Army-Navy game here in Houston. Teddy Carter, he graduated before I got to the academy, but he played ice hockey. So I had heard all the stories of his hockey experiences. And

And so we used to joke about that, but she was his aide and he spoke highly of her, as you can imagine. And another astronaut had told me, you got to talk to Kaylee. So I talked to Kaylee really briefly then, then I talked to her during her interview. And well, while she was interviewing, I was not a part of the selection team at the time. And it was clear to me that we're going to select her because she's that good. And it's great to have her in the office. She's part of the future. It's really exciting.

That's awesome. And I'm going to introduce the last question I wanted to ask you about like this. As I was doing the research on your most recent ISS trip, it was,

This podcast is an alternative health podcast. And so I thought I would throw some health stuff in here. It was interesting for me to realize that some of the experiments that you guys were working on were the Cardinal Heart 2.0, which is focused on testing drugs to prevent microgravity-induced changes to heart cell function, which I thought was fascinating. You worked on a biofabrication facility that's allowing you to print 3D replicas of

of a knees, meniscus and microgravity. And then the one I wanted to ask you about is I often talk about behavior science. When you talk to many of the behavior scientists, they talk about me search. And I understand while you were up there,

You had to serve as an experiment yourself. Can you explain some of the biological sampling and processing that you had to do? Yeah, we are lab rats. I mean, it's part of what you sign up for when you become an astronaut. And I always thought it's an important part of what we do. We are a finite number. So that N, that number of experiment that you can run is very small at space station. So we need as many people to sign up for these experiments as possible.

But they do incur some interesting things, drawing your own blood, collecting your own blood, processing your own blood, all your other bodily fluids and excretions. You collect some of that at different periods throughout. That's an important part of what we do. I was also a participant in some eye experiments as well that involved

Basically, getting electrodes laid across my eyeballs, which it is almost as bad as it sounds in some ways. But it was ultimately, I think it's important science that we understand how the body reacts in this environment, not just because of the space environment we're in, but what it tells you about the basic functions of how the body operates.

And so, yeah, we are lab rats and it's a really important part of what we do to help us understand how the human body works. You eliminate that microgravity, the gravity vector, and you're operating in a microgravity environment. You learn all sorts of interesting things about your body.

Yeah, well, I can't wait to see Johnny Kim go up there and perhaps perform a surgery in space. We're talking about remote surgery on the ground. We were doing demos. That's been a big thing to learn is that telesurgery and we'll be working with that in the future too.

And the last thing I just want to ask you is what legacy do you hope to leave behind as an astronaut? And how do you hope to inspire future generations? I'm just happy to be here. I don't think about anything beyond myself. So in that regard, I'm hoping that I have done well since I've been here. I'm hoping that I've been a good example for anybody that follows. I don't know. I'm still here. I haven't left yet. So I don't know. I'm just so happy to be here and have the opportunity to

to continue to be a part of NASA's mission and to be a part of the exploration and the research and all the exciting things going on that as a child, I never thought I'd ever, it seemed impossible at the basic level, but then just to be a part of it. If I've said for years, if I wasn't an astronaut, I'd be trying to work here on some other field. It's just an amazing thing to be a part of space exploration.

Yeah, I don't, I can't think. You asked that in a weird way. It's like, I never think about what's going to happen after I leave as far as how people will, I just hope they like me now. They haven't asked me to leave yet, so I must be okay. Well, Steve, I wanted to thank you and NASA for the honor of having you up here today. It was great. And thank you so much. And congratulations on what you've done. And it looks like you've got more in the tank and more missions to do.

We'll see. I don't assign myself, obviously. And so I'm just happy to support it. 99% of what we do is not fly in space, but just to be a part of everything that does allow us to do this is just amazing. Well, thank you so much for appearing here today.

Well, have a great day. Thank you very much for asking.

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What happens if I can't feed my child or what happens if I fail and what are my family going to think of me or what are my friends going to think of me? It's really just fear of failure. But one of the tools I use, I've always used to build my muscle of courage, which I actually think courage is my superpower now, is to face the fact that you're going to die. And when you do that, you end up using death as a tool for living because you realise how

how precious your time is and how every day it's reducing. Your life is getting closer to the end, whether you've got five years or 50 years left.

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