A.I. Lies & WTF is a Digital Land Acknowledgement?! | PIRATE WIRES EP#4
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Welcome back to the pie wires pod. We are here today with the one the only the legendary john ludic um the little brother of foundan who I think is not like pushing thirty. So i've got to stop calling in that twenty seven days.

Okay, okay, no need to get defensive. But I understand john is an investor, founders fund and friend of mine and I would say an insider in the space of A I and certainly in the space of A I discourse. Um he's an investor. He looked at a lot of these companies um he is prey plugged into the scene and san Francesco or where a lot of his stuff is being developed and he just rote a peace, but I thought was great.

And we published a pie wires in which he did sort of what I think we love to do at pie wires, which is he analyzed the way that we are talking about something broke IT down, and explain, sort of, you know, what is really being said here in the context of A I I think, as in the context of most discussions, the bounds of that debate is A I going to destroy us, is going to save us. Are we going to make a lot of money in A I is IT all over ah the discourse is sort of determined by the incentives of the people speaking. So I think probably just to catch kind of everybody up to speed here, the what what do I mean by the AI discourse, sort of the artificial intelligence discourse.

What i'm talking about is just like the way that investors and technologists, people sort of in the technology industry are talking about this new technology, and the way that sort of trickles down into the media and then sort of into your living room at home and also prophetically often into the sort of halls of congress. I want to maybe to start with eluted al, like your sense of of what that discourses, just painting me a picture of kind of who the major players are, what they're doing, what they're saying, what does IT been to date? cool.

yeah. Well, thanks so much for family. Sona excited. Be here. I think the background thing going on here is there is a very few people and few companies defining the AI frontier.

So if you look at opening eyes plus anthropic c plus mid journey and a few others have fewer than maybe a thousand engineers building frontier models. And that gives the rest of the technology industry a lot of foo. And that creates a really noisy discourse where most people don't really know it's going on, but everybody has something to sell you.

And if you're just getting up to speed as as an outsider or even an inside, it's hard to tell what's real, who you can trust. So the point of my articles to give people lens through which they can understand the instant of supply. And so the key biases I outline, or hope copen rope, hope, meaning I hope the future unfolds in a way that benefits me.

Cope is, i'm not winning, but it's okay for X, Y, Z reasons. And then mop is the game is R, T, over and lost. And so we should just give up.

These are things, these are the opinions that sort the average like insider has on the topic.

exactly. yes. yeah. There's there's a few ways that these manifest is what I call hlubi ation. And so it's like things that people want to N N to be true.

And so you have uh this idea that foundation models have already platos in the terms of their capabilities, meaning to five one b that much Better than four. I think that just by the cope of other foundation model, lagos that are not winning right now. And then there's you another whose nation that this idea that open source models are going to totally dominate.

And I think that a hope driven by developers that hate big tech in for companies whose reason for existence is this kind of multimodal a world big tech companies that don't stand to win in the foundation model race you know another another hoose nation is ah this idea that only in comments well and I think think of that is in the mob category where a not many people would rather give up then find a way to when in the new world. And the reality is it's very hard to figure out what to do because it's true that the incomes have done disproportion unai well. But at the same time, there will be new companies that win.

There's already been no over ee and throw a big Midjourney, all of which are are relatively a sent on the commercial side. And then the apple yer is even, even more nice. And then and then there's this there's bc narrative dead.

There's many different VC investible, AI opportunities. And I think that's driven by hopeful VC that that are not in one of the very few A I companies that matter. So if you think of A I companies that have one so far, there's in video, microsoft, open my journey. The reality is of the companies that have won so far, the VC ownership and those companies is very small. So historically, when a new technology platform took off, uh, that was almost perfectly correlate with the VC doing really well and an AI that doesn't actually seem nearly as true.

What is the breakdown of because we're talking about OpenAI mostly. So what is that who mostly owns OpenAI?

Yeah shareholder in open as is obviously microsoft and that's that's public knows there are some VC shareholders but is too much smaller fraction of the the company obviously in video, microsoft, large public companies and then my journey entirely disrupt and so of many of the lean companies there's a relatively smug like a historically anomalous ous, a level of VC ownership um in in each one of this that um I think terrifying of many VS. And so they need to tell a story that there's going to be many different VC s spook .

the broader context there. I mean, why is IT terrifying? It's terrifying because there's nothing else happening.

I mean, this is and they say this people, if you see the the venture capitalists are talking about this right now, publicly, pretty much constantly, how we were in this crazy bear market. And AI is inspiring, and we're excited again. And there's finally something going on.

I heard VC actually talked about this in the context of politics, where they say, you know, perhaps the reason venta capitalists picked up this reputation for speaking about politics over the last few years is just because there was nothing else happening in tech, was was a boring time to be an investor. And this this feels important because IT IT definitely is some. I mean, when you use ChatGPT for especially, you just you know that you it's only like VR in which I felt like you're interacting with the future.

It's practically useful. I mean, people are I use GPT for all the time. This is going to matter. This is going to replace a lot of things I would for one and want to replace my lawyers can fucking stand them.

But and and I do think there there will be bc back winners um but I think I think was I want to say a matter k that put IT pretty imply that we need AI more than s VS. I think that's probably the best installation of the the way yeah that the voices that informs .

the V C S word.

Well, I guess maybe start my mom's calling. She's trying to have a birthday cake delivered for me. And i'm busy, mom, we keep that in.

I want to talk little bit about .

the push back you receive because I mean, inevitably you're talking about you know the discourse. You're gone to become a part of IT and people have opinions. People have opinions about you having opinions about their opinions.

Yeah, I think your high lever, I think the peace resonated because most are too timid to anything. Maybe you will feel like I don't know enough. And the reality is very few people know enough.

So might as well jump the ring. I think one of the things that was most policing is the open source section, where I claimed to that your open source has a lot of Green shoots, lots promising projects. There are a lot of market forces against IT as well. And people, this is a huge lighting, rob. People either thought I was obviously correct, meaning of source is in fact overnight, or obviously incorrect where they would say, but have you seen .

these thirteen news? I think this is going to a sound really stupid. But there are a lot of people listening right now probably don't even know entirely what you mean about in need. You buy open source in the context of AI.

Yeah, open source is basically this idea that you right code upload IT to get hub, and then any developer can clone that code download of themselves, change IT as they want. And I think this a really powerful thing IT IT powers a lot of cloud for structure, are a lot of developer tools are written in an open source way.

And and so I I have no doubt that is a critical part of because because linux on the Operating system site is is open source um but I think the open source narrative is particularly model because there are so many people that want open source to be to be true. And so it's it's very hard to it's very hard to assess the open source foundation models if you're not an insider. Others like basic things, like what events are you using, meaning what sort of test questions are you asking? The open source model to assess how good IT is compared to GPT three or GPT three, one, five or four?

Um and it's it's very hard to falsify the open source claims unless you have a rigorous understanding of the questions on the evil. So for example, if if the E L asks the first grade question then and is all the first grade first grade test, then maybe the opens models do just as well as GPT four. But then when you throw IT harder questions around software engineering or complex file offical concepts or literature, then you can fall on his face. And so even just benchmarking these miles because they're so not determined that IT is actually quite hard to do.

And so you were saying about, I mean, the push back was IT was a mix of people who I ve never thought I was obvious that open source was not going to be sort of the path ford, and people who thought there was no way that IT could not be open source. What's I want to key in on the you mean you sort of a reference, you made a sort of mean comment about open source people in the piece.

Maybe he was supposed to be a little more veiled than I felt that actually was, but is sort of like suda religious obsession almost in tech people. It's part of the ethos and in way that sort of the ideals of the open internet of the nineties, like the anarchist internet, are part of, it's just part of silicon valley culture in the way that people think of themselves as technologists. Mean open source is that is the the biggest part of death.

The idea that this information is free, that anybody can build IT all belongs to us. Um in other saying IT doesn't matter because the biggest companies in a ae run by a handful of people and that stuff I mean, OpenAI started as like pretty open source. It's not in any more. Tell me a little .

bit more about the .

push back from them specifically because IT feels like the technology industry is kind of, I don't know, the approaching a crisis of identity.

Yeah, I think open source is a very critical part of how socking value was built. And so you definitely want to dismiss IT. It's it's a bit of a protective class in that everyone wants free stuff and so and people don't like corporations getting a lot of the benefits.

And so it's a very touchy subject to defend the corporations. Nobody really wants to do that. Not very popular.

That's why I had to approach to somewhat indirect way. It's kind of becoming to be mean about IT. And and then I think even in the AI connex, open source will be very critical.

So open, I released its whisper models like a open source audio model that's been really useful. A lot of people built on top of IT. I also think there's enterprise use cases where you will use open source models to run local deployments, fine tune of specialized models that is really viable for particularly use cases.

But I think on the on the sort of consumer upside, IT is very hard to be a false stack approach of amazing technology. Uh, close that's that's close source, run by a company where the product is built in house, essentially the apple approach. And I think mobiles are fairly instructive analogy where apple only has things on the order of twenty percent market share in terms of number of devices, but then fifty percent of the revenue, eighty percent of the profits. And so it's not to say that open source will not be a very important morality. But in terms of creating and capturing value, it's hard to visionary world newish close first doesn't somewhat dominate.

I think before we get you, you mentioned earlier you had sort of a piece that you'd written. You wished that you'd written a section of the piece that you wish written. Forget that. I do want to know. Just I mean, IT seems the read of your piece was like it's it's pretty bleak to be an investor right now in the road of maybe in general, but certainly in the context of of looking for something in A I how do you think about that lickers as an investor?

Yeah and I don't want the piece to be too pessimistic. Uh, there's one of the key message I want to get a crosses. The reason you want to think you play about the space is and uncover all the vices that IT is super exciting and promising.

You're just the biggest force more supplier on productivity since the internet. And so I just want to help people find the truth more easily. Definitely don't want to tell people to give up, but the game is over. I don't want .

to be a mother give up when you say it's I mean, but as an investor, IT may be less hopeful than as someone who's building interesting things like obviously, there's a lot that you can do with AI right now. Is that maybe we .

yeah yeah I think you know on the question of sort of what do I do um because everyone knows it's important, right everyone knows is the future. I think it's is important that your answer to what one should do can be nothing like you can just sit IT out. This is clearly happening. Include the future you don't left behind. Um and so I think on the investor side, you know the article mention there's very few people dragged the frontier and I think the coral area there is there was relatively few companies that matter.

This is a general truth about starts such obviously Peters paralo concept from zero wine, I think of the unique true and i'd given the economies of scale and accumulated vange of of running a large foundation model and and so the reality is, on the investor side, there are a few companies that matter, but they will probably matter in a big way. So the key is to identify those. And then on the founder side, I think people have a general bias to try.

Was arty working? So I seen a lot of founders raising very large sedan, a rds, to build foundation models that are very similar to the inconvenience, but maybe some flavor of like new geo or new modality or like Better pricing or something like that. I think the Better way to do this is assume the foundation model players somewhat set.

And then if you live on the frontier from there, uh, there's a lot of things love to be done. So I think chat is likely not the final form of the interface. Chat will be an important reality, but it's not going to be the only way things are done. I think of chat V D almost is like a proof concept of how ah it's online.

I think I think David holds actually might have I think everyone from tweet IT something to this effect like people just kind of forgot that this that happened in images that there's like a whole other sort of, I don't want to, it's easier just referred as an alien. There's a whole other kind of alien artificial intelligence. Just brighten the room with us. And no one's talking .

about IT right yet. The way I think about the way I think about alams from a founder opportunity is not as a chatbot, even though that is the primary way people use IT right now. And more as a translation layer, so you can translate between any two languages. And and I defined language very broadly.

So like IT could be from a textbook language to like a smothery comprehension level language IT could be translating from unstructured xt to a user interface, could be from code to natural language um and so the key is to the thing that hasn't really been done yet is translating things into the language that makes the most sense for the user, whether it's like an image paragraph, user interface rendered in on the fly. Tons of opportunities left to be uncovered that the incumbent won't be super well position to do. I I think there's a lot of hu fruit. Um the comments did in integrate very quickly whether IT seems like customer support with a with and ask some of the of the trip actions rolled out ab. But in terms of this much more creative back to the drawing board thinking there's a lot that has known and done, and I think of that is a huge opportunity for for founders.

okay. A last one for you before you get out of here and we start talking about the diversity, equity and inclusion experts who are shaping, literally shaping our AI discourse for our AI policy right now in washington. What is the thing that you just wish that you'd written about, that you d included right from the start in the piece here?

There was one section I I wish I write and I did you think about until after I published I needed in in some areas, but should have been to stand alone. Is this narrative that AI isn't that smart? I think that's very popular, particularly among particularly on very smart people.

interestingly. And so you get a lot of people, uh, pointing out that it's just doing next token generation, right? It's like producing one word at a time. There's no way that this understands this understands concepts in the way that that that a human can.

And you you have like Young 的 coon saying that chat bt isn't really that innovative compared to what the frontier is。 And then and I think the reality is, and then you also have the lots of examples of how chat V T fails at math or logic, or like you have a positive fail. And I think of this is major code that makes me will either feel Better about their capabilities as human or Better about their capabilities as an A I researcher and engineer.

And yet there's a good there's a good quote from ellia open eye saying like the surface that looks like we're just running statistical probabilities. But the reality is that, uh, text is some sort of representation or a projection of the real world and and there is actually a lot to be learned promote. And that's roughly the framing I would have on that section if I could have writing the piece again.

Brand and river guys have anything to to throw IT before we part ways.

So might might I guess pollution inside or like my coper I I mean it's not really a copper hope I you know i'm not an investor of the writer like I because I don't have like too much taking this and what that takes my job. Um but um what happens when A I reaches a point where like most of the content ever generated in the world as A I generated, doesn't that get incorporate into the new datasets and then it's just sort of becomes as a sort like clown like reflection of itself is like A I reflection itself back so it's no longer um sort of imitating human language or like human art um it's imitating its own or doesn't that get us farther away from like something that isn't that just get too uncanned?

I got spright yeah I I do think there there is something there there really is. It's a frontier that we don't totally know. Like one broad category of training the models is synthetic data, meaning you basically generate labels with the model and then and then train the model using those labels. And IT seems weirdly soft referential and I I agree, likely to lead to some exaggerations and pockets of the model. But how that plays out exactly, I don't know.

An aversion in this is like what I wrote about in dominic. This is like this was what this last summer and this was in the a picture based, um what was that? I forget which one IT was actually which model IT was.

But you were doing basically with reverse image searches. So you give the AI a picture and have a generate a piece of text and then you take that text and you say, okay, now generate a an image based off of this text. And I believe IT was like marlin brando or something, was the image that that was put in there and have to go back and double check this.

So let's say marlin brando s put in this thing and was like A I I give us some text and gave us some text to sort describe the picture that you just fed IT, and then you reverse IT. And or was IT they really like an opposite? They describe the opposite of this or something.

Then you put that text into the generator, and what was revealed was not more than brand do, as you would expect. What was revealed was this like, horrifying, literally demonic woman from what looked like some kind of fucked up held dimension. And naturally, everybody who found out about IT started to asking more questions about IT and sort of unraveling this entire other alternate entirely AI generated held dimension. And what we were sitting on was maybe the first sort of portal to um the negative spirit al around via I that we ever countered as as a people people disagree with me on that.

But I like to you be in the rerun matic experiment on the latest version of journey or next generation of dolly when ever comes .

up comes out just who some of us don't like to. I try my best not to chAllenge the spiritual alm in this way. One demonic one, dominic summoning, was enough for me to steer clear's catholic. Don't fuck with this stuff.

If you, if you call domo ics, alona, the A, I will remember just and out i'm not .

it's putting any qualifiers on that in terms of like I think you're a bad person. I'm just saying I respected enough to leave IT alone.

What's that? Thanks so much for having really fun to publish this empire.

Thanks for for joining the man and thanks for a publishing IT. I will see you on the internet.

right? Thanks guys.

See a river. You wrote A A banger this week the dei. Experts who are kind of shaping policy A I policy for the White house.

And I want to ask you some questions about that. I have a conversation about IT, but first, maybe a little bit of background. I don't know about background actually like first, just like getting out of the gate kind of an opinion.

I don't know. I'm not actually convinced that anybody in dc actually wants to regulate anything. It's like we have these people in place to go and work on this problem.

But we watched, we watched the the hearing and IT seems like senators, for the most part, didn't really understand what they were supposed to be regulating or why there are a few people who really care about this and they're kind of in charge of making appointments of the kind that you're about to describe. But I think maybe the situation is is not so dire right this second. Now I think at the moment that people become hysterical about the ability of AI, IT becomes a lot more serious. And right now, the kind of the experts quote on, quote in place, a defining the bounds of what A I is going to be permitted to be and do are pretty fucking crazy. So um what you just go ahead and and break down what you discovered.

Yeah let me just say I I agree. I think how the the reason that is like this in some ways is because people in congress and said that were being like told that you need to do something about A I could kill us all I can do like whatever. And so there's this like idea that something needs to be done, but we don't really know what. So we're just going to create this like council and then this other office and they're gonna figure that out. Um but because it's democracy, politics, the people that they put in charge are not really concerned about like the end of the world or whatever um which I mean people can judge rather or not they think that's like a responsible or were all just bring yourselves out but their board concerned about um sort of like D I like bias and AI these sort of like niche issues that for reasons all explained aren't actually issues for the most part seems like a rerun of the social .

media conversation for them. They don't really have a IT seems like most of these people don't have a framework for thinking about and intelligence capable of replacing, I don't know, most human labor on the planet, or at least certainly intellectual labor and so they're kind of defaulting back to this more familiar argument in which really like the problems are, quote, misinformation as defined by these people as things with which we don't agree, and in bias, which I think is really just a weapon to stop things .

that you don't like.

right? People on the committee or so don't have specific expertise in AI. If you look at their BIOS, that all just break managers like right out of some other .

that weapons to this information. This is what this information researchers are. I mean.

you just put IT in your twitter bio and you're good to go. Well, some of them are like, they do have they run A I in gos or A I like do A I in the name? A I like so ups, but they are specifically focused on bias.

It's like pretty much all them. But I should go I should go back and explain what congress created. It's called I be calling at naik and my head.

I'm not actually of the prince in A I A C national artificial intelligence advisory committee. This is the committee that we're talking about. What they do is they easily developed policy recommendations for the executive branch of government, in essence. So they advise the president. They also advise, uh, naa which is the national a artificial intelligence organization which basically coordinate A I policy on the federal level between agencies and sort of access about ment to the public. Um it's to by a woman in marine vocal she's the present E O of equal AI which again is A M G O that wants to eliminate unconscious bias in A I there's another lady on this committee um genet havin SHE is a source alone night, a long time, sorry. Um a open society alumina so um you know the infamous torch funded torso is funded N G O um SHE I was like peaking around dead and societies, what page and sound of things that their .

numbers have .

been publishing and and stuff like that and there was one uh like the first one that I found was uh where they were accusing facebook, uh, perpetuating racial capitalism by refusing to sensor people in the third world essentially the the argue that was that they are using the third world as a like gini pigs essentially for, I don't know, open dialogue, just people of being able to use the internet freely IT IT really was baffling the the digital and claim was specific .

claim was that facebook wasn't applying the same level of moderation to certain countries in the third world as IT does in the us.

exactly. yeah. And then the result also something about how IT feeds the claim is that this actually feeds back into a colonialism or whatever because then that creates these uh this topic images of black and Brown people killing each other uh because of social media insane um they also have like a digital land acknowledged, which is hilarious um I mean to hear everything about that so do you know tell me what a .

digital land acknowledged, I want to know what a digital land acknowledgement is yeah so .

we explain what to land. And now if you're like not an internet peri.

start there. I mean, I don't know there people who are not super online and they're going to be shocked by a knowledgeable and so let's just take IT from the ground floor. What is turtle island?

Explain that. So okay, so turtle island is the like and made up I was like one elegant tribe or something called the the continent of north amErica total iwan. And so now they're like, that's what all indians call IT something like it's like it's one of those things. It's like to the name for the united states yes, basically you're like all of north america, I think technically but yeah .

yeah which no native american and had any concept because they didn't have cartography. They didn't map out the continent. It's gigantic, it's insane.

Yeah and also they weren't out.

gang quin. Not all of them. Yes, right?

So people that do land acknowledgements call amErica turtle island.

Not all of them. I don't, but I need in this one, they do. That's it's one of those terms that you used and like when you want to be like in some like native american activism circles um which are mostly dominated by White people on the way, like like like fake pretend deans as I go and it's sometimes using like a land acknowledge ms for you they caught turtle island because it's like from the methodic of like a one tribe that i'm pretty sure is extend now and they've just basically decided that it's that's the correct time. That's the term we should use because amErica represents colonel ism and turtle island I guess is that so the way i've seen land acknowledges .

used in the past. And also I just keep IT in the tech context. I saw one IT was, I believe that was the apple is a couple years ago, I might have been the most recent one.

Two, when they do the new products on stage and they have the like people and they are like, it's like the White people show up on stage. They've got a big scarf and they have is like very strange like fashioned is almost designed to become a meme on twitter and they're revealing the new products before they begin the whole monologue. They say, hey, like before we start our presentation, we just want to acknowledge that we are standing on land that was stolen from. And they usually name a local tribe that you've never heard of, that apparently existed in san Frances go. And only 3Frances go。

First, we want to acknowledge that the land where the microsoft campus is situated was traditionally occupied by the sea ish, the dual mih, the snow quali, the sukari, the muckle shot, the snow holme's, the two layup and other coasts sallied people's since time in memorial.

So that sounds like a the island for all of north america. And the purpose here is what just to it's like just to to respect the people that americans stole land from this to be like, hey.

like we are living on stolen .

land for some reason. That is this important thing that y've decided to work into literally every public interaction that they have yeah I believe .

like sort of strAngely because you don't think of IT is like a low country because they are you know just punch like that now drink but like they had happened in australia, like that's where it's started. That's when I australia informed, told me. He said, it's like everywhere you go time you touch down on a plane.

Australia, there are like, we acknowledge the people past, present, what like, you know what I mean. They just like go on and they do a whole land of like when you're landing in sydney. Um so somehow .

that's going .

to do that.

Yeah yes, that you kind of can't do that. There are only certain countries where you can do that. Australia maybe is one of them. AmErica is certainly one of them.

In the rest, you ort of liking a small, a small enough population of the original people to sort of for IT to matter in some way, a IT falls apart in a place like mexico, where so many of the people are actually like rational. They're like rational, part indigenous and part colonizer parts spanish IT, just like it's exceed to have meaning in that way. So so I really I highly doubt that they're doing land acknowledges like that on the regular basis in i'm probably anywhere in south america.

No, no, no. I think when I was in uh eug Y I saw one, but that's because they wiped out of the indigenous. So it's again like this should like, no, there's nobody there like so you can just say IT and like because of you do IT and you know belive or or whatever they are like eighty percent of the population that's indigenous and also poor. So like the political economy, I think it's different when it's like, you know two percent of like one two percent of population, alright.

So this is a level, level one that's A A land. Acknowledge what is a digital land acknowledgement .

a digital land acknowledged is when you do the same thing. But you're saying like um our servers are on stolen land and we Operate on. So it's like you have to like all of the mechanics of I guess, where you are your set up this like all the different components or whatever to .

actual websites. It's like if if if google were to do this, I think google does not exist anywhere. It's it's everywhere like google is acknowledging that somewhere down the supply chain there are some servers sitting somewhere that once belonged to some other people that were not White.

Yeah he says our website W W W dad in society that that runs on servers located in turtle island. Um but they they also were like, I meet IT even longer than that like here's why in the united states much of this infrastructures, the time about the instructions of the internet I guess sits on stolen and acquired into the extractive logic of White candler expansion um as an organza we recognize the history and up with the sovereign indigenous people, data and territory. What is an indigenous data?

Well what is an indigenous people was interesting about this churl islanders. To me, when you're doing a digital land acknowledged for all of churl islands, you're explicitly not talking about any actual group of people who had anything stolen from them in the past. And now first of all, like just read off the bad.

I have a problem. This is like stuff that happened hundreds of years ago. And this is the history of all of the world, is a history of conquest and taking, including, that is, the history of indigenous amErica as well as tribal warfare.

We have able evidence of this, that tribes took land from other tribes throughout history. The aspects we've talked about this, they were a, that I was an empire that was constantly invading other places and taking slaves and things like this. History is brutal, but I just took that for a second and pretend that this sort of firm golm yh of the americas, that the people like this who worked for soros like to believe, that just pretend that IT was true.

Turtle island erases them from history. And at that point, what is turtle island as a concept really about when you're doing a digital landing acknowledgement acknowledging turtle island, it's about White people? All you're really saying in that statement is why people are bad. And so like that sounds may be nice to an idiot but what you're you have really just done is you've you've race the Brown people who you proportion dly are obsessed with.

Am I wrong? No, you're not wrong. And it's also that IT just ignores the complexity of not even like the native american warfare that happened between tries before the colonial is, before the united states was, but also like what haven't after, like get the trail tears was bad that the the cherkis also brought black slaves with them on the trail of tears.

The last the people we need to just this, like you have to look up that's like, I am like, look IT up. Someone look IT up. We're going to get roasted.

No, no, it's through the Cherry. There is a recent controversy actually because the tribe kicked out a bunch black people basically who are like on the dos roles. They really enroll members of the try because they were designed from the slaves because that you know their ancestors have been born and lived in indian territory. And a lot of them we're part native to just like usually elegant um and they like kick them off.

Sources confirming the the the existence of black slaves. Chery.

the Cherry y did IT the similar the great did IT the um to the chicken saw maybe um the others of most of the southeastern tribes had black people's slaves and they took them with them when they went to oklahoma. And since okay ma was still indian territory and remain neutral during the civil war. And black people belonging actually specifically to the jerky, were the last by people in slave in the united states. They were enslaved, like, I want to see a year to, after the civil war ended, before the federal government finally forced the cherie to freeze place.

So that should have been A, I mean, we should have written argent teens piece and I should have .

been that yeah.

this makes me feel like a really good start up idea would be to get funding the started of company that how is their servers on totally pristine non stolen land somewhere and like africa or something?

Well, think that would also think that would also constitute that. That should also presumably be europe. You know, like what obviously, to history of why people still land for why people, but there is no, like indigenous, native american tribe, you thought.

And yet, when you google around for this, there are all of these weird, like scandinavia has a weird culture of talking about its indigenous population, which I I mean need to dip in. You seem like, you know something about this, Sammy. What what is that .

of the Sammy are they live in finland, switzerland are dots finland, norway and like some parts of russia, their languages like closer to finish. They're like rain deer herders, basically very culturally distained convert to Christianity until like the late eighteen hundreds or something um but they're basically like they are indigenous to that area.

But they weren't driven out of the lower areas of scanavius by the nord, by the north, like they migrated like from sort like middle siberia into um like northern sandal navia before um the north. But they didn't occupy like the same territory until like pretty recently and there was like some stuff that like I think especially in sweat, like some like force to simulation stuff. And I think they might have actually like the ized, some of them like so there's like some unsaved stuff that happened like in the nineteen hundred ds with those people, but they didn't.

There are no more or less indigenous than like the majority of these populations in those countries, right? It's like they just like there was like a fairly brief period and some of those countries were like there was discrimination and stuff against them. But for most that but for most of like history, they're just kind of like existed almost like in separate worlds like the north didn't really go that far in north because there is no reason for them to like they didn't have the same like.

Way of life. They weren't interested becoming grain deer hunters. They were fishing and doing viking grades and farming and stuff. So they didn't even want the one.

And what's interesting about this is just the entire world, the americans, american dominance is insane. Our cultural dominance, we have essentially exported our own history, our own historical baggage onto like the rest of the planet and everyone, especially the rest of europe, has now some version of some version of our own struggle with very specific struggles with, for example, the legacy of slavery um which is somehow translated into right now the struggle tween like black muslims in france and and and the White french population where is like just makes zero sense at all and in things like this in the context of of native americans .

wild yeah and if you actually like look at like the talk to french people or look in actual french coverage of um a lot of like what's going on in there. The french are like they have like a national policy of color blindness, and it's actually like there is like a problem with the simulation there. On the other hand, like riding is like the most french thing you can do like .

your course like like IT is confusing .

in this context and yeah and you look for yeah so but but like the problem the the suburb of paris are like rough but if you go those areas, like half of them are they call them like the working class areas. Like it's not like it's much of a there are some areas that are like racial at, but like as a whole, it's more of just like entrenched poverty, including like White french tinch poverty in the suburbs because they are just like economically destitute areas that are dangerous and nobody wants to go. And you know the french have their own sense of what that means to be french, which is you know to be secular and to try but like only and like this part like a union strike and labor .

and be a labor right .

right um and yeah I mean you can wear a crucifix and to like the D N V. And so like it's like, yeah they're going to let you were broken there but that doesn't mean like they're being races. It's literally big. That is part of being french is like being like the to like religion and like, I don't know children smoking or what to so but people are like exporting you know I think american I just about race and religion and also to stuff over there where it's just it's a completely different society.

Well, to get up the conversation on the digital land, knowledges thing is, I think the important thing here is just, this is the crazy thing i've heard in, I don't know, weeks, and I heard a lot of crazy shit. I live on twitter. And these are the people who the the bite named in is tapped to shape AI policy.

Now, as we said at the top of conversation, it's really unclear what that even means. You know, how much power are they really going to have until until they do but but for now, he is, it's pretty dire. These are not the people that we want in charge of what the AI is and is not .

allowed to say, right? I we're just like to move more like the the problems that they are obsessed with. The is really just Wright, like sometimes they talk about like facial recognition.

Like facial recognition doesn't work as well. And black people so black people could be like they identified if we use this thing like law enforcement context or something and like maybe there's something to be done about that. I feel like you could probably just train the AI on like a more diverse dataset. And no, they don't want easy solutions, right? Um what they're actually more concerned .

with .

is bias and AI. When IT to college, my friends when he comes to getting loans, when he comes to a job applications and stuff like that and there is no bias and A I that we can really see like the cases that they try to present or so like flying zy. And I think the worst one that I saw um was a levana saying, uh who is a founder of uh credible A I which is like they basically sell like A I products where you can like download and make sure that your A I dataset discriminating gets people it's unclear how they do this. Whatever I customers .

could they even have.

I guess I mean, I guess you you don't need that many if you're targeting, you don't care. And at whatever, I mean, there are really big contracts, I guess. But good point. I there's hurt. You had prepared testimony before congress last year where as OK in tuning an example of bias in A I was talking about in very z terms a case where a woman uh with the same joint income as her husband in the same address was denied uh A C A credit card increase and when her husband's uh credit card limit was twenty five times that of, uh, what you had and I was like, that sounds weird and so I google did and like google basically the details of this case and what came up was a twenty nineteen controversy where the danish entrepreneurs said on twitter that exactly this that his wife had a Better credit score than him but they had the same joint income and yet his credit limit was twenty five times sers. And uh apple the apple credit card or whatever wouldn't give her a credit increase. Ah there was like an outrage about this especially because willing act like jumped the comments and was like the same thing happened to my wife and it's just new york the a save new york said that we're gona do an investigation of this golden sex to actually issues the credit card the apple car comes out and other like, hey, we don't we don't look at joint income when we are determining credit limit increases its individual income so that's why you're things is not sexism and I it's just, you know joint income doesn't matter if your husband makes more money than you .

he's probably going to have yeah hustly literally a .

billionaire makes more money than his wife probably .

sumption yeah I mean, that work if he does, he doesn't have to right? So how much bright so.

A year later I don't know why IT takes a year for this to happen but new york state regulators come out and they basically confirm what golden said um in by twenty twenty eighteen they said, oh there's this commits conception that if you're married and you file joint lay on your income taxes that you can claim like you the bine joint income as your income. But credit card countries don't actually look at that. They look at individual income.

So that's why there's discribed cie. There's no evidence that gold man discriminates against women um and. A year after the seven, new york says that they clear, they confirm what moments at the very beginning this woman is in congress and prepared testimony, string written, thought up beforehand, giving this exact cases an example, and I think, intentionally obfuscating details of IT.

So nobody won't notice that she's talking about something that wasn't real and basically amounted to people don't know how apply for a credit hard works and and it's kind of the saying but no, I I even thought I was like, anybody noticed this? Nobody noticed. So you know smart for her for you know giving so little information but he was obviously that case I was obviously that he was talking about the apple car case is no whether case work at the car companies .

been accused of um just me against women was this is case this this is how all political debate works and probably has always works in in that you you pick up details of stories that are advantages to you. You reshape them, refrain them, distorted them, sometimes maliciously lie about them and do every in your power to get some other thing that you want.

And in this case, who knows what that is? It's like maybe they want I don't they want greater representation of some specific c class of people in some specific body. Whatever IT is, they're not being honest. Whatever table IT. The problem is when you take this kind of dishonesty and you like root .

code IT into the .

search engine that we're all going to use for the rest of our lives as if it's fact rather than political discourse. And in most of this, most of everything is IT seems political discourse that most everyone is biased. Everyone has a perspective.

Everyone on any actually important topic is is forwarding some kind of an of an opinion. And and so this is, this is the sort of problem of problems here. It's like like the entire paradise.

The whole framework is wrong. We should not be looking to people to inform you some kind of regulation concerning what what is and is not proper speech that you will never work. IT will always end in like jacco, ian authority, italian dictator, shit, that just the only way I can .

end right well. But they do want to restrict ech like obviously, but that's only one part of that. They I think what they want just as much, if not even more is a sort of like A I generated form of a formative action and basically all forms of life and finance and um job applications and uh college missions.

I guess I want that back. It's like they are never in a thing which is give you prepared uh text ment a country to congress. She's talking explicit about um parity of outcomes. So and he gives the example um you know does your candidate ranking system recommend black women get hard at the same similar rates? IT recommends White men um and so it's like maybe maybe IT doesn't but like you have to look at like how many black women verses way they are applying what are their qualifications. It's like that doesn't even I I mean, personally I I think that like you couldn't even use A I in hiring if you actually like want to build up a good company culture because it's hard to to retire e people based off like a computer reading a resume, like people lie and like you can't really judge the vive and all that. But I mean, SHE even gives an example for also like if a credit risk prediction system, he says that judge black women is less credit worthy than White men, that would be an example of an unfair parity of outcome but like created workers is determined on income, on password history um debt income ratio my go the things so rectifying this parity of outcome would be like a violation of the walls that stands now and this I guess we'll see they can get away without if they actually they like.

you know know in the context of college because, I mean, the spring quarters rolled on this. There is a long and robust history of law that will prohibit this. And this court is going to uphold those laws.

right? I mean, IT feels like this whole thing. I mean, when IT comes to like a of action cause depression, when it's going to things like credit, worthing, us, which like there's a limited amount of money, I guess that like can be landed. So like IT seems like the attempt to sort of like get even to further ers like pursue ve like past I mean in some real like past and equity by just like you know, giving any black woman who wants alone alone at the expense of what would actually be like more like working class about revenue, financially responsible White than or asian because, you know I mean, they're gonna deny A A billionaire millionaire one. But IT could be, you know, the guy who makes you know sixty, seventy, you know, grand a year working like in the trades we're going on or something like that and as an OK credit score. But when he goes to try to get one, they're like, you know sorry, it's it's and they would have to do that not just because the amount of money that can be lonely as finite, but because they want they would want the uh the A I that the outcome, the lita, the outcomes to be like period so they would want to have like an equal number of black women and White men. So necessarily you're going to be sacrificing one for the other if one is determined to be more credit worthy based on these objective um things like credit history and all that.

All right. Um I think we're going to save that one for another day. I got a piece to wrap up, and I will hit you back next week. Talk guys later.