Spencer Hyman on flavor and chocolate
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One of the interesting things, things about flavor is that flavor is actually very similar to the way that if you walk into a room and you hear different, different conversations, you can make no sense of them. If, however, you focus on just one of those conversations, you can actually start to have a really interesting experience. Even great galois can only identify two or three flavor notes at any one time.

And I think that's where A I just tunnel is. Amazing reads of data into real insight. And I think one of them will be around health and nutrition.

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Every so often on the possible podcast, we like to give you a little treats. And so in honour of the thanksgiving season in i'm excited about today's episode.

we're talking the Spencer hymen, founder and chair of chocolate at coca runners, as sustainable minded artisan chocolate shooter based in london. His company works directly with producers and chocolates makers to build a had a log of chocolate with fair labor practices.

Spender background is in retail and tech, but he has spent the last decade honing in on his passion for helping people enjoy chocolate, including through tastings and muddle subscriptions. Today will get into the future of taste, along with what IT takes to improve the sustainability and enjoyably of our favorite.

Here is our conversation with .

Spencer haymond.

Answer, welcome to possible you said a history doxorubicin be should come as no surprise that the coco runner's website has a tab dedicated to the history and culture of chocolate IT includes in depth articles like chocolate in the as tech empire and how to chocolate spread around the world. Can you tell us about how your passion for history influence the idea for coco renders and why you share these articles with customers?

Histories changed that since when I was not studying, when I was all about sort of kings and queens and sort of events and revolutions. And it's now much more about people of what's going on and looking at connections and stuff like that, what what you can enjoy, what you can really sort of get out of that.

And if you want to understand the same time, sort of really what's happened in the last five hundred years of world history, job t is a phenomenal starting point because it's part of the column exchange, which is the great changes which kicked off with columns. But it's also a different way of looking at things and looking at the connections and explaining what is happening. And I think the other thing about chocolate, which is sort of quite fun, is the history is all about accurate.

The bits you choose to remember, really what historians telly that he should be remembered. And one of the fun things about chocolate is trying to fight out which ones that you're going to enjoy. You know, we worked with you to create the involvement selection of different chocolates, which will take you on all sorts of different journeys and teach you all the different things.

And I think that's part of the sort of magic and the fun of IT. And it's also something which everybody does, you know, we can all appreciate and we can all save and enjoy IT. And it's a great way of sort of learning about a sense that we don't often think that much about.

I was Lucy enough to taste the read hf and chocolates and do taste task actually with my kids. And i'm sort of surprised that i'm not a chocked t entrepreneurs. I am obsessed with chocolate um but you you were a tech entrepreneurs, worked at global gennet amazon hasbro. What made you take the into the into the world .

of chocolate part of IT is that I held launch chamis on over here in the U. K. Many, many, many million ago and also did stuff like music.

And one of the great things about chocolate is not only do we spend more on chocolate in the U. K. And the U.

S. Can we do on both, but unlike books, is actually quite difficult to figure out which ones you would like. So the secret of most things in commerce has always been search.

You know, the good of physical retail is being location, location, location academy. Quite tough to be amazon at that game, but there are certain categories where actually you need a different form of discovery. And, you know, so music example, in many ways, probably had the best for my discovery anybodies ever come up with in my generation.

That was gold D J S. And you know you use have the top forty and stuff like that. And now you got playlists, which you know and in a way, chocolate lends itself brilliant sts um to helping people discover what they would like.

But is also, I think, the other thing that, as I got in to chocolate, the more and more I discovered, is this amazing world of flavor, which is a unique human attribute, where we is something really strange. We do something three or four times a day. We eat and we drink and we have this amazing skill.

But you know, unlike, for example, reading a book or learning to ride a bike when you can cycle, we don't really, at least in the U. S. In the U. K, spend that much time thinking about how to particulate flavor. But once you've got that language, IT becomes just so much more fun and I just know gives you a whole new set of experiences. So it's a bit like sort of you know, before you go on holiday, if you you got a guy book and learn a few words of the language, you going to get so much more out of IT. And chocolate is a great way of sort of, you know, getting you something on flavor.

You know, one of the things I love about cold runners, as they have fun and educational taste and you offer, so what is the difference between taste and flavor? And expand our vocabulary a little bit and give us some sense of a of of the language of flavor.

yeah. Well, I think the first thing I am going to do is is what, you know, basically blame all of your predecessors, we who are the philosophers, but basically confusing us about taste and flavor because, you know, the likes of our softline come to everybody else, really confused IT all that. Because most people sort, you think about taste, flavor is being as you sort of set synonomous mous almost.

But that actually very, very difference. So taste is something which almost all animals can do. Um you basically sense with various detectors in your mouth to be very simple. And also a couple of buses, things like sweeteners sound as salas, bitterness, you want me, in fact, so that things that we all readily recognized and you get really, really fast.

But flavor is a quite unique to humans, and b is something which we confuse of IT, because even though we detect IT in our mouth, it's actually our sense of smell. So the weird thing about humans is that we smell not just with our noses, but also when we put food or drink in our mouth. And if that which creates all those other sensations, you as you're having your cup tiie, i'm having my captain as me try piece of chocolate.

What we're getting out of IT are actually the volatiles, which is sort of going through a, you know, sense of smell, but wonder a Better word. And other animals can do this, which is the reason why we should save. And they can discover le down and scarf and scarf. I mean.

IT reminds me so much of my brother was a smala for twenty years and now you have a glass of wine with dinner and he's always like, no, no, no, take the bite of steak and then swished around and then eat me what you're feeling and then that's a different the mouth feel and before you'd know the vocabulary, you're like, okay you're a crazy percent um but then once you learn that is just enhances all of these you know human experiences which which is so lovely um and so we were you know one of the things we talk about with A I is enhancing human experience and people are usually talking about sight and here and what we're feeling and they often overlook um smell and taste and you said that you actually think that like taste is gonna one of the the last senses that impacted by A I so tell us about that um why you think that and is there some way that A I is going to impact this so I .

think that's a great question. H I love your point about somali a two because I think IT is that, I mean, everyone is very frighting wine, that a good to media, you know, is gonna be able to explain IT to you, make you feel much more comfortable and more confident and just you will enjoy IT so much more.

But I think one of the strange things about flavor in particular and takes to an extent is we don't have a great recovery for we don't have a great sort of set of descriptions. It's not like, for example, color, which has got a panda sister. It's not like some of music which go as we launched things like lots of specify.

The digitalization of music meant that you could break IT down as the pitch, the rythm, the frequency, and you can sort of build digital finger print. You could get IT on the street. And similarly, with music and with art, you you can also know we got we can understand how colors work, and we can understand how you can sort of put images together.

And you know, now that we know how cats fall above, we're much Better and actually doing image recognition. A so we got these amazing data abases. And with a few exceptions, there aren't really databases of flavor in the world, which we got is a unique human sense.

It's not something we'd been working on for that long. You know about rich acts. You won the nobel prize for how the old factory system work. Only one in two thousand four. The reason sort of if you like an I M D B or an I S N N of flavor. So you know, back on you as the experts on A I I think the question whether the data set, how you're gona train is and what can you do about IT?

All right, we we tried to see what uh, if A I could help us because as you said, like what is the data set? Where are we going to come up with the words and be in the data to be able to sort of match flavors? So we asked inflections pie to come up with a few ways to describe flavor through some ultra specific filters.

So first we ask for a renaissance error approach, define flavor um to which pie said assumption was medi or a variable feast for the senses. And then we asked for a more british way, and you can get on pie for this pie head, taste like a proper cup and positively scrum. When we asked for botanica lens pie said, a blossoming s sensation and a version burst. And then lastly, we asked me, how would you describe the flavor of chocolate um and a few answers were a creamy and lucious mouth fiel, a rich and valvo a roma, uh and the notes of earthiness and fruitiness. So how did pie do are these horrifying or these words that you ever used to describe chocolate?

No, I think that the great words and I think the pie is picked up on one of the great secrets of chocolate, which is that uh that mouth eld which is talking about is due to this unique attribute of chocolate, which is the wonderful coco about so the way that flavor gets released in your mouth is basically through heat releasing volatiles.

And the amazing thing about chocolate is it's literally the only thing which rates properly tempered solid room temperature and then melt when you put IT in your mouth. And it's about lovely, what pie sort of developing as the creamy fill, which gives rise to also what I was talking about, which are sometimes the verden nodes, or sometimes the earthy notes, or sometimes the fruit I nodes. And then the fun part actually gets to be to sort you die downs, the next table OK.

Which routes do you mean? Because the fun thing is, is that is all about association. There are very, very, very few words which just describe an a roma.

They're almost all based on stuff that we think about. We've taste IT, so they are like a fruit or that like a vegetable or they are like, you know not or something like that. There are very, very, very few words which are just about a ramas and flavor.

And so it's bringing those out and just getting comes with them because we hardly ever used that. You know what? We we automatic as kids get shown how colors, what we get shown how to read. But unless you know you're italian, french and you are trying to basically compliment the shed, you will learn, or the 不 不够， you will basically learn the words to appreciate what you're doing. And IT sort becomes a wonderful .

virtual circle. Another thing that's important about coco unna is, you know, kind of selling a variety of craft chocolate from independent farms and a massive appreciation for a commitment to the ensuring that all the chocolate is sustainable source that we made um so how do you lead a sustainable business that combines you know capitalism and social good?

So I think that you know you sort as ever hit the sixty billion dollar sort of question that and I think part of IT is around getting people to sit back and think a little bit more because as you're sort of hinting at IT is very difficult to figure out how to scale the business, which is trying to pay for this value and trying to get people to, you know, be conscious and and and trying to eat more healthy when they are basically having their taste ards, basically a used to play against them.

And I think the way to try and do IT is to get people to learn that p is not just healthier for them, but is also going to give them a set of different experiences and made a little that sort of similar to the way that, you know, luxury good companies can somehow get you to pay a little bit more for something which has been made with more care and made with more respect and will be, you know, paying the work as I going to forward to pay the work as more, because that's the trick. The tricking chocolate is basically, how do we pay the farmers a little bit more were all used to play, but a little. But if you pay the farmers very little money, unfortunately, you get massive environmental destruction.

So, you know, people don't necessarily realize that actually everyone is wear ried about almonds and how much, what are they absorb? The jos a way was so know, handle arms is five hundred, seven hundred one chopper bar is fifteen hundred to two thousand metres of water. So it's a lot.

Now that's fine if you're basically encouraging the farmers to replant the rainforest. But if they are basically desperate for money in the anyway, they can get more money by cutting down the rainforest to plan or chocolate, then you've got a real problem. My so I think in some ways, chocolate is harder than coffee because it's a less social, it's more of a solar pursuit. So I think IT is trick here and can dly. It's also in some ways, it's not as obvious and upgrade.

But one of things you're actually trying to do is make chocolate more social.

yes. So I think you have to change the occasion. You have to you have to make IT something which you want to share. So what you do is absolutely brilliant.

Know the read open job lar collection is just fantastic, as you know, showing people how to share IT because you wanna IT together. I mean, field should be fishing. Food is the basis of civilization. We became civilized by learning to CoOperate and cook together, and then by basically sharing boom, one another. And it's the basis to all of that. And so you know if we can go back to that and not just sort of having a guilty secret on your own at work or you know up on the sort of safer on your own that, but I mean, I think the secret is to turning into a social and sharing activity.

maybe in addition of the word companion, which is, you know, breaking bread together, we would like like co chocolate.

Yeah, something like that. Some way to sort of .

do IT one particular thing that I was kind of a studying is why does IT take so much water to make a chocolate bar? And that's not actually obviously, the consumption of water, because I presume ly recycles. But what makes IT so water intensive?

So the reason why chocolate is so water intensive is that IT only grows in the rain forest, and IT needs a huge amount of water to basically amy one pot, which is the equivalent of one joke bar, more or less one good quality job, requires a huge amount of water to basically turn this tiny, a little flower into this thing. The size of american football, a reason possible.

IT is a huge amount, and it's used to all the humidity of the rain where you can't grow. Coco, outside of a very, very narrow band around the question. Now, the good news, you do recycle, as you sort of say, unless you destroyed the rainforest in the counterfeit.

I went that time, which is what town in west africa, as he used to be, the west africa afghani, was largely verge rainforest. But because the farmers, they get paid less than eighty cents today, and they need two or three dollars to live. L the only way to get more money is literally to destroy the rain forest.

And when you destroy IT, then you have massive problem, is not just more global warming and changing the weather patterns, but you change basically the where the water comes from. Because if he doesn't, you know, rain, Normally in the rain forest of rain in twenty seven months of the year, if you destroy the rainforest, you get much more concentrated rain down to six to eight weeks. So you get floods and you get drought and you basically are pulling the water off them out of the acrisius.

So that's the reason why it's such a disaster environmentally. I made is similar to the way the in the way the california sucks the water to grow pomegranate and to grow arman's. You you could grow them in a proper way that the problem is you're sucking water than acquiring es rather than recycling IT.

That's where the problem really comes true. IT is interesting that that everybody assumes that you arman's are now the Carlos terrible. But actually, you know, joker is way, way, way worse. And it's much more the problem in terms of you got to pick one food to basically improve your global environment. Foot rate outside, you know, giving a beef IT is definitely upgrading growth.

Joplin actually quite cognition about the, you know how wine change from generate calories consumption to to you know kind of the language of experience and flavor and participation and sharing what is the kind of history these things and what's the hope for how chocolate becomes the next of these colonies webs and what of the things that um that you do to try to help that and what's the the hope for the kind of human experience?

I think this is two different of the tracks to the answer here. So I think there's one track, which is that part of the last hundred years in food has been basically an amazing series of technologies, which have basically made IT possible for most humans to be able to have enough calories. And that this is everything from the Green revolution in Normal, all lag three, to sort of recent innovation site, sort of versa.

funny. And at the same time, the other problem has been that we basically not respected not just the planet, but also how humans can best sabor fit. So what I mean by that is that we've almost commoditized, we've almost have turned IT into another input in the sort of massive industrial complex. So what really happened was, back in the one thousand nine hundred and sixties and seventies, what made ultra process to be possible was not just the commodification of everything from we can call on amazed and soil everything else IT was actually that a bunch of very clear food scientist worked out, had a hack or taste buds. So if you sort of think about them as being a lot of social media equivalence, um they basically worked out how .

to use broadly .

two very clever technologies. One is called the bliss point, which was invented or innovated by a guy or hello moscovite doing some work for the U. S.

army. And he basic worked out that to get soldiers to eat, all we do is to a loss of sugar, salt, fact. And and it's basically you guys call IT the direct effect.

We call IT the pringle effect. Once you put, you can't stop. Now there is another tricks which you can also play. There's another very famous one, which is british in this case, are bober role, which is basically sense society, which is the polite we are. Basically, if you give people lots of different senses in them, they don't get bored, so they eat more of IT.

And these two combine the fact we could get me on people and the fact that basically the best way for a big food company to make lot of money is the brand is pushes people down, the sort of root playing with taste as a closed to flavor. And what's happens in most other industries is that if you want to premium product, which really appeals to people's creativity and sort of appreciation, you actually want to get them to be able to understand and appreciate flavor and the ways to do that are to turn IT into a social experience, to find a place that IT works really, really well. It's sort of, you know that the skating to the park and cheese is sort of done something similar.

I mean, in the U. K, we used to eat cheese out of unit tubs and cans and something you had as a high t and then people realized that actually made a lovely ending to the meal. And we should have this great idea about having cheap at at the end of the meal.

You know, in america, you do decided to find you have IT at the begin of a meal is a sort of way to get your appetite with IT. But you've got an occasion before IT. And I think the secret is what's the occasion and what's the appreciation that you can go for will.

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I mean.

it's so obvious um but also so easy to forget because you just think like food is food is food, it'll taste the same wherever you are and it's like, no, that's just not how IT works. Like where are you? Who are you with? How long are you do like all of those things like matter so much.

And you know IT IT is so critical that we get to the savers moment. And you know this this is a podcast about what's possible about the future. We were sort of talking about what what happened in the past or throughout history, like what is possible for our future. Is there a way that we could use technology to get us to this point of saverin more or um you know a change our relationship with food, like what do you think we can do in the future with that?

This is always gino thinking, which which may help us. So rather than just thinking about building a database of flavor, I think that actually the more interesting stuff is to sort of you know try and figure out why is IT, for example, that you can have a chocolate about on one day and after city love IT, I don't know, they not enjoy IT the same.

And what is IT which is happening? Why does that happen? And that sort of so you lose mass data, I think you can gather in a very different way. We've have been able to sort of gather before.

I think another thing which is really interesting is the way that technology can be used to sort of enhance the growth of food, which I think she's already starting to happen a bit. Some of that isn't always be a good, but I think you can be. But I think the other angle which is gonna really interesting is fatter is so complicated that it's not obvious that we're going to be abort of crack by just looking at that as an input.

But if you want people to eat Better food, what they will be able to do is to understand a little bit more about the consequences of what you eat personally, through sorts of new technologies, which coming about to you, we already can wear blue Cosmos and figure out that for me, like if I drink a cup of coffee, IT really causes me to Spike. But a dark top bar is just great. Similar bananas on grade for me.

The eggs are, you know, and and everybody y's something different. And you can teach people a lot about how food interacts with them, and that will get people to say that. And you know, one of the great matches of the the food community, look at the quality of the ingredients.

So I think that it's it's gonna all thought always. I think it's gonna. Things like personalized nutrition will play a huge role in this.

I think that will be a lot more about this in technologies about how you grow food. I mean, so vertical farming for tomatoes is the greatest airport. I mean, I hope you'll be more of those. And then I also think they are just asking some difficult questions, which we've always known about that. Like why does the same buffalo of wine be different in different areas? If we can sort of gather that data and start to show people what's happening that I think we're gone to earn some amazing stuff.

So let's zoom out to the kind of the scope with the food industry. Thanks for talking. Uh uh, technological threat right now. And you know there is an various technological uh, innovations for food, you know, starts with fire. But you know we now kitchen robots and all these other things.

So what do you see as the the next technological developments on the food industry, whether it's sourcing in providing, whether it's creating and serving, whether it's experience, what what are some of the technological trends we should anticipate? And which one should we kind of lean into and which one should we try to steer, you know, kind of more carefully. So I I think .

that is a great question, and I think i'm a chance. Wer I saying which ones do I think we need to really focus on for the future, on the best of humanity? Because there are a couple of things which have made a lot of the food instant possible, which are not great.

You know, for example, over alliance on antibiotics to grow lots of meat, overlaps on fertilizes and pesticides. And I think that I should be. And you know, we're really seen some really, really good examples of people actually using technology to use a lot less water, use a lot less fertilizer, use a lot less pesticide to grow different food.

So I think for the benefit of humanity, there is a lot of really relatively simple technology that can be applied. But to do this, the biggest chAllenges is that fair d really hasn't had the same attention of technology as lots of other industries have over the last couple of decades. know.

Food has been really about getting IT for as cheap as you possibly can because supply chains have got much larger, which in selves problem. This is a ufos m, for we basically managed to get low basically by paying farmers less and less and less, more and more and more. And that's not a very good solution for the long term for from immigration through to global you deforestation and global warning.

So I think thinking a little bit more about how to be commoditize bit and get people to think more about flavor are some of the elements that we need to get into. So i'm not really answering your question about like you on the front end of IT, what can we do? It's more about what is IT that we can basically persuade the supply chain to look at and how do we get people more to just be aware of the fact that not only is ultra process speed really, really bad for our health, it's really, really bad for the health of the plan and for performance.

I mean, this this isn't science in data, but it's as we like to say, anecdo ata, I feel like you can at go on twitter without someone saying, like, I just went to europe by a pizza every day and I lost twenty five pounds because they were walking, or they were eating non processed food or they were having these like amazing meals four hours long, as opposed to just like twenty minutes they were enjoying like there is something about the joy of IT that extends all the way through.

It's like the beautiful ingredients. It's the caring about the sustainability of IT. It's the you know not craft macronix. She's i'm not totally doing in my own life, but i'm really trying.

I'm really trying yeah but I think that's exactly right. And I think that's what this person just be. What are you in? Your makes a huge difference. You know there is a reason why in you must mature kitchen in france and in italy you start with a salad because he based put some fibre in and IT basically will help you digest everything else. Know that the reason you I mean, you know, actually other animals are pretty smart about this.

If you look at the way in which cows and goats will basically eat in a few, they have a sun order because they know what's best nutritional and know over time. We've develop the same skill. But we've lost that.

We've forgotten about IT in many cultures, including the U. K. And you know, the good new is, is that technology. I think we will be able to help us appreciate that.

So you know, another example is, you know, when should you have some craft chocolate? So to me, the ideal time to have some craft chocolate is at the end of the meal. And the reason for this is that you do literally have a second stomach.

IT is well known that you have taste senses not just in your now, but also, for example, in your stomach, in your heart northwest. And if you see something sweet at the end of a meal, that's the reason why the end of the meal, you know, you think you've had a really great meal and you feel very great food. And then outcomes, the desert city suddenly, well, i've suddenly got room for a bit more food.

Now the trick there is not necessary to eat everything that's on the desert joy. But if you have a little bit of something sweet that will basically satisfy the census in your start, your second strike speed up digesting and you will feel happier. And you will they give her a great opportunity to chat to your friends and partners and about what sensations you got that.

So yeah I mean, I think there's a lot that you consider do um the anecdotal stuff I think is right. And I think that's what you need to be focusing on warm, but I think you will be able to learn from that. I think once you got they, the it's quite easy to turn some that any data stuff with the right tools into real data.

You know, one of the .

things that .

you know in and sharing chocolate with you over the dinner table that is always, you know kind of engaged and delighted me was this notion of of chocolate becoming a shared experience, a shared vocabulary, building human connection. Say a little bit more about, you know, kind of this humanist view, this social view of the future of chocolate experience.

So I think one of the things i've learned from you, and I love talking to about his friendship. And I think one of the great themes of friendship is about having the opportunity in the space to be able to talk. And saw that should be as unconstrained as possible.

So you know, to me, and I think to you, you can so to split the world into people who like dinner posies and people like drinks, poses. And I think dinner parties are great because you can have really good conversations this bit like, you know, if you're at bus, you can have or an american in you get this great times to sick with somebody and really talk about. And it's not like in a drinks party where there's loads of different people, lots of different conversations.

And in a way, actually one of the interesting things about flavor is that flavor is actually very similar to the way that if you walk into a room and you ve hear fifty different conversations, you can make no sense of if, however, you focus on just one of those conversations, you can actually start to have a really interesting experience. And actually that is the way flavor works. There's this weird thing called the LG limits, which we don't really, I think, about how and White works.

But actually even great, somebody is can only identify two or three flavor notes any one time. So what you want to try to do is basic, look at the wave and how the journey works. And that I think the way the friendships and great conversation should go to you don't want to be having load of us different conversations going out time.

You want to be having one of theme you don't necessarily want to control or it's gonna, you want to be able to exchange IT. And the great thing about flavor or is if you tell somebody what you're getting, they may also submit, yeah, I actually do get back out of pazon not that you describe and you know they don't get IT that's up fight just because that all all micro bine the east and actually go to them out. They released that flavor, man.

But IT gives you a chance to do IT. So I think that the social lessons you can get from chocolate are quite and it's the same social license is you get with food. I think one of the reasons why the italians in the french is so much more particular is the if somebody he's going to the effort of cooking a meal rather than just out of like creating that, you want to thank that and you do that by basically showing your appreciation particulate, what's going into IT.

And it's a bit like, you know, if you want to thank somebody for a great place of music, you will try and say what you enjoyed in that or if you want to describe a book so you're going to enjoy and you will focus on what IT is and that you like. And I think the great thing about chocolate is I like, for example, coffee or wine, which are actually like adults, just like something which anybody from the age of, like, you know, a to A T A, in fact four you know hundred and four can really appreciate and in, you know engage with them, discuss. And it's very, very democractic zing.

So one of the things that was part of this delightful conversation sensor was how important the social experience of chocolate is. And so was a surprised dispenser. We have a guest appearance from his awesome daughter, meeker, and so we will talk a little bit about the social experience and how that plays into a family environment with chocolate.

So I had a pretty lucky upbringing. Um spence has been doing this for ten years. Most of the time I before going to college, I was at home and we would spend our evenings tasting chocolate, which is a pretty good way to spend the evening um and he would pull out a couple of bars of chocolate because he really believes in trying a few at a time which is good in general um and he would ask me to describe them and engage with them and we would talk about them together and doing that every evening or kind of at random times in the day and thinking of when I came home during covet and what kind of the study aged suddenly find a few bars of chocolate in front of me and set of questions going what do you think of this? What do you think of that um and talking about that with the family member really keeps you close like that's a point of conversation you're talking about what IT reminds you oh reminds me of that time that we went and had ice cream in new jersey and all of these memories that come up when you're talking about tasting smile because as that is probably been talking about, it's really hard to talk about your sense of baLance taste and so you rely a lot on memory and personal connection and bouncing ideas of one another and so um I really can't think of a Better way than spending that time at the day table uh or at the round of time in the afternoon or morning getting to try a few chocolates with my dad.

And so what would your advice be? I love this. You know, I am a mom of three kids. What is the way that I should integrate, you know, chocolate into into the family so that, you know, we can have these great conversations and memories?

I mean, the way that what you would do IT was often IT was an off to dinner kind of is set of having a dessert that with k or although i'm partial to a lot of ice cream, so ice cream would often be involved are but often we would just kind of cut a few bars out on the table um we would often actually break them up and not have any of the packaging nearby so that I was really just focused on late what we were sencer through smelling taes sometimes touch um and kind of sometimes you would have a penon paper that on how official we were doing IT but I would really recommend cut of choosing two boys every evening or every other evening um and you could do IT after Denny you could do IT after lunch or even kind of in the middle the day when you feel like, oh I really want to just have this moment to reconnect with my family um and asking questions like oh do you like that do you not like that um what you smell, what you taste um you can try eating IT really quickly um and seeing what that does, try eating IT slowly just like playing around with that is a bit of a game.

But I think also encouraging them to ask you questions back as well as such an important aspect of that of i'm getting them to think about what questions they might want to know about the chocolate. Oh, I really like this. Can we have a look at the package and answer that I can find out where it's from? And dana kind also becomes a little bit of a gene to who the chocolate maker is.

Like the amazing thing, as these boys come from all around the world, they have beans that come from so many different countries, and there are so many different stories, and each of those boys like you start the conversation by trying and tasting IT. And then after that, there's like a whole set of stories and questions to on cuba through a just do a little bit of google and research, maybe the help of ai. But yeah, I think I was always used the bar as the starting point.

Thanks so much for the tip. The world will do you tonight. That sounds of missing.

And may I mela see how IT goes?

So so we moved to rabbit fire. Is there a movie, song or book that fills you with the optimism for the future?

Loads, maybe loads of music. I love listen music because you know um yes, there is a book which I love recommend anybody he's into thinking about food and the thing and it's study strange work is called the visit on the profit by a guy called Chelsea man who also read 4 ninety one and forty ninety three but it's an amazing story about both sides of Green revolution Norman ball lag， on the one hand, will avoid on the other 的。

And IT presents both sides, you know, the technical optimism and the sort of, you know, the slightly malthusian fear of technology with a very new on approach, which shows you that if you think in a baLanced way and you are realistic, constructive and you look at what's going on. So he's great history. IT gives you a real sense of optimism that we can deal with a lot of the chAllenges we've been discussing and sees the opportunities.

Spenser, what is a question that you wish people would ask you more often?

Got cheap and have two, right? So one is, what's the best way to end a meal, which the house is, got chocolate. And then the second one, which is, do you shift ment internally on the other of, say, yes.

I love you, I love you. So where do you see progress or momentum outside of your industry that inspires you?

So on the grounds that we aren't really about nutrition and health, although eating chocolate is very good for IT is very healthy. Um I think the personalized nutrition is one of the intriguing areas which we will see more and moral because that will help us with health in in no end of ways.

So I think that you know all of those amazing new so is and everything else, anything you can measure, anything you can start tracking will start to really help. And I think that's where A I will just tunnel is amazing of data into real insight. And I think one of them will be around health and nutrition.

Can you leave us with a final thought on what is possible over the next fifteen years if everything breaks, humanity is way. And what's the first step to get there?

So I mean, the first step is obviously to learn to save their craft chocolate. But I I do think that we are on the path to recognizing and appreciating the way that our own personal health, the health of the planet, the future are all intimately linked. And a large part of that is by being much more conscious about what we consume, how we save IT and with whom we enjoy IT.

I think we're starting to sort of get more insight that food is not just fuel. It's not just a sort of you know scarf. IT is much more something which links everybody to go and the .

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