Amanda Knox
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Welcome back, everybody, to Right Answers Mostly, a podcast on what you didn't learn in history class but wanted to. My name is Tess Palemo. And my name is Claire Donald. And, you know, we're back, you guys, with my second murder mystery. ♪

Well, from the girl who does not like true crime, you are giving it to us. It's unexpected. We love it. It's, I think JonBenet and this one are really the only murders I have ever closely followed. I can't think of another one that I know anything about. Well, JonBenet, I definitely knew about. I feel like that's the starter guide to every true crime. True. Amanda Knox. Oh, it's okay. Just say it, Claire. Just say it.

I guess you guys saw the episode title anyways. Yes, like we just, we like the suspense, but please. We do, we do. But yeah, we're here to talk about Amanda Knox. We sure are. And I don't know anything about this. I mean, I know American, Italy, roommate murder, whodunit. Okay, so that's all you know. Literally. Do you have any perception on...

the outcome of the case or do you even know the outcome? No, I don't know the outcome. Okay. I mean, that's fun. That's why I'm so excited about this episode because I get to learn with our audience. Yes. We're all learning together. We are all learning together. And I, God, so I think I don't actually know when the documentary came out.

I got most of my information from the Netflix documentary and also from this podcast called Murdered, Meredith Kircher, along with a lot of other online sources. But those were my main two. I will say my personal connection to this. Yes. I feel like I'm like, am I a narcissist? All these episodes. I'm like, well, because I liked this when I was little. We all have a little bit of narcissism. Don't we?

I studied abroad in Italia. Italia. And I would quickly like to share, before starting this journey, a text message that I received January 22nd, 2011, from our friend Hannah Baer, that this came up on my time hop just a few weeks ago, obviously. And I was just truly cracking up. She said...

Hey, okay, this is going to sound ridiculous, but I started thinking about Amanda Knox, and I was like, what if our apartment suite mates are like crazy and try to kill us? Or they bring home sketchy people and they kill us? Or I fight back and save us in self-defense, but we get blamed for murder and our Italian isn't strong enough to communicate with police. So we go to Italian jail for five years. End of text message. End of text.

Did you just get that out of the blue one day in January 22nd, 2011? I think this was like three days before we went to Florence. And this is, it was only a few years after the murder happened, but still in the midst of a shit ton of trials. But that's the thing. I'm like, I don't even know what year this was. You know who I always get Amanda Knox mixed up with? Who? Casey Anthony. Who?

very different. I mean, it's a murder. Casey Anthony is a terrible, terrible person. See, I know nothing about that. Maybe we'll do that later. I mean, it's so depressing and I don't know that much about it. I think it's just two white women being like accused of murder and I think it was similar times, but we are talking about Amanda Knox today.

Yes, this is about Amanda Knox. I will say that I think this will be a good opportunity for a discussion after the facts and presenting it to you of like a lot of what it means to be a woman, what it means to be sexualized, culturalism, racism, sexism. There are so many factors into this that were unjust and unfair and

But, I mean, it's just a bigger discussion on, like, what we make women, how we victimize women, how we— Wow. The terms, the wording we use around—it just sucks to be a woman. Well, I saw—I was Googling photos of her this morning, and I was trying not to look at even the article titles, but I did look at one. And it said, like, what the story would be like if Amanda Knox was Andrew Knox. Yeah.

That is so interesting. I'm excited to get into what even that means. I don't know what that means. That is very interesting. There's a part in the research in which I will let you read some of the article titles still today that come out about her and just how tough they are. Oh my gosh. Wow. Okay. I'm excited. I'm nervous. So am I. So am I. I'm also wearing my ciao, ciao necklace. Oh, ciao necklace.

Yeah. So we were trying to decide what to wear. Tess was like, maybe we'll go to some like college tourists. Yeah. Studying abroad. And I was like, let's do it. What does that look like? Well, also I want to say that I had the idea to do like 2007 to 2012 fashion. We all remember it. It's like not early 2000s, but it's business casual. It's business casual. I'm kidding.

And when Hannah and I were in Italy, some of the outfits we wore were just, I mean, just like these huge statement necklaces with blazers. Pencil skirts. Pencil skirts. We were talking about this the other day, the business casual, and I pulled up my New Year's outfit going 2008 to 2009. I was in a black pencil skirt, tights,

And like a white ruffly top. The flats were always just the worst part of any outfit. The flats with the tights were so, I was a librarian walking through a New Year's party. And that was chic. Yeah, it was chic.

I felt like a woman. And I'm sure that's, I mean, we know that Amanda Knox did not have good style. Wow. We'll get to that later. But so anyways, I'm actually wearing a black and white striped shirt to not at jail. Yeah, prison. Prison. And the Hamburglar. So. Yeah. In that cosplay world. Yeah. No, we love that. I just wore, I was, I got stressed out last minute. I just wore like a National Skate Park t-shirt. You look really cool. Oh, thanks. I was like, I'm like an American. So. Yeah.

Exactly. And we're drinking Italian wine and it's delish. Pino Grigio. Pino Grigio. It's going to be so hard not to talk like this the whole time. I know. Also, I know you shouldn't apologize in advance for things, but I really do not have a good way to pronounce different languages. It's not my strong suit. I...

I won't be able to fucking pronounce anything in Italian. It's called Right Answers mostly for a reason. That's true. A book of the bad bull. A book of the bad bull. I feel like it's going to come out of me throughout the whole episode randomly. And it can, and I support that. Thank you. It's a safe space. Amanda. Amanda, Amanda, Amanda. Amanda, Amanda, Amanda. I'd like to start with a quote by her and take it from there. Let's do it. Amanda Knox once said, There's those who believe in my innocence and those who believe in my guilt. There's no in-between.

And if I'm guilty, it means I am the ultimate figure to fear because I am not the obvious one. But on the other hand, if I am innocent, it means that everyone is vulnerable. And that's everyone's nightmare. Either I'm a sociopath in sheep's clothing or I am you.

Okay, Amanda. Sweetheart. Amanda. Calm down. Is this what we should be saying if we're on trial for murder? Probably not. I don't think so. Why are you saying that? So this is what she has said years later. I mean, she has a point. In reflecting. It's a little bit of a...

Unsettling statement. I just feel like, again, like I'm trying to go in open-minded and not like from rumblings that I've heard, not to make assumptions of anything. That's just a very bizarre statement to give if you've been accused of something you didn't do. Yeah. So not to like give anything away, but I think that's going to be an overall theme of you'll probably be thinking a lot. What a bizarre thing to say. What a weird statement. And...

This is obviously the story of Amanda Knox, the trial. It really and I do like really want to focus on paying tribute to Meredith Kircher, who was the one that was actually murdered because Amanda Knox has gotten so much attention from this. And she has really profited off of it. She's indulged in it. But we'll get to that later.

It's sad that I didn't even know who, I didn't know her victim's name. Exactly. Or the victim's name. And you probably don't know anyone else involved in this who had a lot more to do with it. Oh my gosh. Let's get it going. So Amanda Knox, she is an American student in Italy. Um, she didn't speak the language very well. Um, and obviously she was accused of the murder of her roommate, British, uh, Meredith Kircher. Um,

Who the story, you know, is really about. Amanda would go on to be notoriously a hated suspect in this murder from 2007, in which it happened, to, I believe, 2015. Wow. And it just went on and on. She will be a sex figure, an obsessive girlfriend, a jealous friend, an untrustworthy American, so on, so forth. And here we go. Here we go.

So Amanda, before she went to college in Italy, she described herself as different, quirky, late bloomer. She wanted to get out of her comfort zone. She was really inspired by Italian culture, the arts, the vineyards, the history. She watched movies about Italy and was like, you know what? This is where I'm going to go. So she moves to Perugia in Italia with her roommates, including that of Meredith Kircher.

Meredith Kircher, she was born December 28th in 1985 in South London. She attended the Old Palace School. Not sure what that is, but it sounds chic as hell. Yeah, Old Palace. She was enthusiastic also about the language and culture of Italy.

I mean, I get it. Aren't we all? Yeah. It's a beautiful language. It's a beautiful culture. It's a beautiful place. Yeah. And after a school exchange trip, she returned at the age of 15 to spend a vacation in Italy with her family. And that really solidified that she was like, I'm going to move there and study there when I'm in school. Oh.

So Kircher studied European politics and Italian at the University of Leeds. She worked as a barmaid, a tour guide, and in promotions to support herself, she made a cameo appearance in the music video for Christian Lanatou's song, Some Say. I'm unfamiliar, but... Chris, put the cliff in. Oh, put it in. Because not sure what that is either, but apparently it was something, so she got a little extra role in that. Love that. And my soul

She aspired to work for the European Union as a journalist. In October 27, she attended the University of Prussia, where she began courses in modern history, political theory, and the history of cinema. Ooh, very interesting subjects. Truly. I'm like, that sounds lovely. Love that. In Italy? Fellow students later described her as caring, intelligent, witty, and popular. We love a witty woman.

We sure do. We sure do. So Amanda and her meet, along with their two other roommates, which I will mention later, she expected to be part of, Amanda expected to be part of the scholarly program, but it was zero work. So she was like, oh, I just got to Italy and damn, I'm not doing any homework.

I want to go get a job at a bar. Well, so she gets this job at Les Chic, which is a bar. It's owned by Patrick LaMumba. Your eyes just got big, so we need to put him in our pocket? Pin it. Pin it. Pin-ing Patrick. He hired her thinking that it would bring in customers because she was this beautiful blonde American girl. Oh, yeah.

But she was feeling like, damn, I'm this girl I've never been before. I'm getting so much attention from these Italian men. I'm desirable. I'm sexy. Also, this is at that age where you start going out on your own and kind of— And like her. Yeah. Like, I sure didn't feel like that in Italy. Everyone's like, you're going to go and just be hit on left and right. The Italian men are like forward. And I was like, oh, my God. It's going to be crazy. Yeah.

I was there for almost five months. I was hit on once on the street. Oh, no. I was like, so? They were just intimidated by your beauty. The last time I was in Italy was for a school trip in junior high, and they told us to pack warm, so all I wore was North Faces and Merrills. You know those Merrills? Yes.

And I was like, I am sporty. You're like, stop looking at me. Yeah, exactly. God, stop, guys. I know I'm American, but... Yeah, I guess I really wasn't their cup of tea. But enough about me. So she meets this man her second week there. And his name is Raffaele Solisito. Oh, that was beautiful. Thank you. You're welcome. And he would go on to be her first serious boyfriend. They got pretty serious after just one week together. He sees her at a concert that she was at with her friends. Yeah.

Their romance starts very quickly, and it was the first time that she was totally in love. I'm, like, seeing that scene perfectly, like, in a movie where they're, like, dancing in a club, and it slows down. And she, like, looks back. Yeah. It's like a silhouette shot. Exactly. I love a montage. Me too. God.

So they're together every day for this week. They're smoking pot. Oh. Joel's like, God, that 2007 getting, or I guess he was Italian, so it's easier. In Europe? I don't know what the rules are like over there. I was like, it was hard for us to get some weed when we were there. But hey, we're just kids. Yeah, just kids. They're going around the city. They're making love. And the first week is very successful with each other. Oh. So.

Let's skip ahead to November 2nd. I'm sorry. This is neither here nor there. Where's Amanda Knox from in America? Seattle. Oh, Pacific Northwest girl. Yeah. Got it, got it, got it. Interesting. Should have mentioned, should have mentioned. No, you're good. You're good. So the day of the murder, which happens literally insanely quickly after they're all adjusted. Happens like two weeks after they get there. Oh my God. November 2nd, 2007. Amanda had been out.

All night with Raffaele. She goes back to the flat in the morning and notices that the door to their apartment called Villa de la Pergola. Pergola. There we go. That's it. She notices that the door is wide open to the flat and

The toilet is unflushed, filled with a large amount of number two. What? And there are droplets of blood in the bathroom sink. And so she's showering and she notices all these things. Wait, what? She just like notices things and then she goes and showers? She does. And she has some sort of feeling, but she's not sure if it's to the extent that she should be panicking. Right.

She took a shower and then she was planning to go back to her boyfriend, Raffaele's place for breakfast. But she calls the other roommate, Philomena, and she asks if she had been home. And does she know no one's home? She is not sure. She knows that their other roommate, Laura, is on a business trip in Rome. Okay. So that would leave Meredith, right? Meredith's door is locked. Okay.

And she, she doesn't check. Yeah. That would say, I came there. Yeah. It's, it's, it's a bit strange. Um, so she's on the phone with Philomena. Philomena is like, well, call Meredith and like, see, see what the fuck is going on. Um, and Amanda's like, well, I don't want to do any of this yet. Like, cause I'm getting a bad feeling until I go get Raffaele and he comes back with me. Cause I'm feeling a little bit unsafe. Okay. Okay. Um,

So a couple hours go by. Amanda is still eating breakfast back at Raffaella's place. Philomena calls her again. She's starting to get impatient. And Amanda's like, yes, yes, I'm finishing up. And then we're going to go back, like, get off my case. What? Mm-hmm. Also, like, as a roommate, I just can't get the number two from the toilet out of my mind. It's an important part of the story. Really? Okay. Okay. Yeah.

So finally, Meredith and Raffaele go back together. When they do arrive back at the flat, she realizes that the window to Philomena's room has been smashed. This is something she didn't see before. She knew that the door was open, but she hadn't seen the window and the broken glass. Like from the outside she saw it? Because her door is locked. Yes. Oh, scary. So at this moment, when obviously they see broken glass, they're like, there's probably been a burglary. And so they call the police.

When the police are not there yet, Amanda takes a quick peek around Philomena's room. And she's like, well, that's the only one that feels like tossed about.

Everything else in the apartment looks like perfect. Like nothing is weird in the kitchen. Nothing's weird in the living room. I wonder at this point too if she's like banging on Meredith's door. No one has banged on the door yet. Okay, guys. I think they assume that she just like she's not there and she locked it for the weekend. Except Philomena is the only one that's like that's weird. She only locks her door after like she takes a shower and she's changing. Yeah, I don't feel like anyone locks their door from the outside. Yeah.

Yeah. That's a weird thing to do. And Philomena's room is in shambles. Philomena's room is in shambles. So Philomena just has, out of everyone, the worst gut feeling. And she's like, this is more than what it looks like. She calls her boyfriend Marco to meet there because they just want to be surrounded by people. And then Marco comes with his friend Luca. The police finally arrive and they are like, oh, we're dealing with a burglary.

So they ask everyone to go inside just to like really investigate what's going on. Philomena goes inside her room. She realizes that her drawers are wide open. There's clothes in a pile on the bed. There's glass everywhere. And there's a big rock under her desk. So obviously that's how the intruder got in. Her computer's still there. Like her valuable things are still there.

So they're all just sort of like still not thinking the issue is within that locked room. They're focusing on rock, smash glass, like what's right in front of them. So at this point, Philomena tells the police officers that she's that like, should we go check inside Meredith's room? These police are like, well, actually, we're not here yet.

because of like a necessarily a burglary. We're here because we have two missing cell phones that we found in someone's backyard. And it's theirs? That belongs to Meredith. So they're part of like...

I don't know exactly what you call these people, like tech crimes. Wow. They're not like the homicide team. They're not technically a burglary team. Please stop talking to us about this rock. We're just here for cell phones. Yeah, they're literally like, I guess these are your guys' phones. Like we tracked them. She had one British phone and then one local phone. Wow. And so they're like, we're literally here just to return these phones. Like if you guys need to call someone else, like we're not your guys. So they return the phones and then all of them are just like...

We don't care about filing a fucking report for these phones. Like, you need to open this door. Yeah. And now they're all starting to freak the fuck out. I'm freaking out. Like, just the... I have this scene of just, like, a shut, locked door, and you just don't know what's behind it. I'm scared. I know. And so they said, we need to wait for the national police to arrive. And Philomena says to Luca, her friend, go fucking... Just go knock the door down. Like, now I'm starting to really panic. I have, like, chills. I know. I have chills, too. Because I don't want to see what's behind the door. I know. So...

Luca does. He kicks the door once, kicks the door twice, kicks the door for a third time. And it flies open. And immediately, Luca just starts screaming blood in Italian. Oh, chills. Just over and over. Just blood, blood, blood. There's streaks, splatters, and there's a foot sticking out from the duvet. And there's someone obviously lying on her back naked under the duvet.

I know. Do you know what blood is in Italian? I want to say like sagua. Oh, my gosh. Sagua, sagua, something with an S. So the officers, these little fucking tech officers, they call. This is not what we expected. They're just holding these phones like, show, you don't care to make a fuse? Stupid, stupid. They call the homicide squads and everyone goes into a panic.

They examine the person under the duvet. There's a large knife stab in her neck. There's smaller stabs throughout her chest and her body. It's obvious that she was coughing up blood because of the splatters. There's two towels under her body. There's a third towel and purse on her bed, and her purse is missing both of her keys and her wallet. And her phones. And her phones.

There's clothes lying all over the floor. The investigators come and they find three different shoe prints. Oh, my gosh. There's one in the bathroom and then there's a barefoot footprint and then there's one leading out the door. Oh, barefoot's odd. Barefoot is odd. Barefoot is familiar. You could say that. You could say that, Claire.

Try not to be biased. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's fucking horrible. You have to look at the facts. So everyone's like, obviously our roommate is dead. But like now the police are like, okay, I'm trying to connect the dots. Broken window. Seems like a robbery. Nothing is- Are they in the first floor? Yes. They're in the first floor. No, they're on the second floor. Okay. Got it. But still not like that high up. No. Okay. Got it.

um it looks like maybe this was sexual assault but there's no conclusive evidence of sexual assault um even in them doing the autopsy there is male dna inside her vagina but it's not sperm it's skin cells so this could be from a sexual encounter weeks ago because that like stays inside of you so it's

Oh, wow. There's no sperm. So they're like, that could really just be from a hookup. Yeah. It didn't seem like there was aggression, like tearing, anything like that would be 100% in conclusion of rape. Right, right, right. But, you know, there's bruising on her head, face, neck, and elbows. And there's defensive wounds on her hands. Oh, poor thing. Yeah.

So they estimate that the time of death was around 10 p.m. That's pretty early. The night before. Yeah, which I'm like, how do they do that in autopsies? I couldn't tell you. Like the time of day. Is that so weird? I think, well, maybe they did it by like how long they think she's been dead. Right, right. And then they were like, if she's been dead for like five hours. That makes sense. That makes sense. This looks like a 1 p.m. murder. It sure does. Sorry.

Cute little high noon murder. Oh, yeah. I should take a drink because I just get so nervous talking about like –

You're doing a fantastic job, Tess. It's just these things, you know? It's just so horrible. The way I said wow is because I have downed my large glass of white wine and Tess is not even- No, I think I need to more. I just show upsetting. Going to refill. So some weird things are happening in this time period. Okay. One of the weirdest things that will be analyzed for years and years is Amanda Knox's reaction during all of this. When the police are coming, when people are coming, when they're realizing that she has been brutally murdered-

She and Raffaele are outside and there's video footage, which I urge everyone to watch the documentary or just look up a clip of Amanda and her boyfriend. And they're, they seem relaxed. They are kissing each other. They're holding each other. Amanda's kind of, you know, looking away and he's giving her like gentle kisses and she looks very docile and almost like protect me would be the vibe that I got from watching that. I don't like that.

Yeah. It's like, I'm a little baby and you need to take care of me. Like I'm a victim. I'm the victim in all this. Yes. Um, she's not crying. Um, she doesn't seem panicked. And you know, we will say that everyone reacts to these things differently. Totally. And we talked about that in JonBenet, like there is shock, there is denial. Um, I can't imagine seeing blood, my friend under duvet. I, I,

I would think I could guess how I would react. Well, yeah. And even if they didn't know each other that well, they've been coexisting in a space for two weeks together and you still live in that space. And this happened in the space you were living in. Yes. And it's also like you're in a foreign country. Yeah. That could be anybody. I think at that point, then you're really like, no one is safe. Right. So I guess, you know, traumatic to say the least. Um,

So they bring everyone down to the police station, obviously, trying to figure out what's going on. Another really weird reaction for Amanda is that it's not funny. It is said that she was doing splits. What? And cartwheels and stretching exercises in the police station. What? What?

That is so bizarre and unsettling. She will later say that this was meditative stretching to help her emotional well-being. Why are you doing cartwheels? It's like a four-year-old that you take to something important that you're like, just go off in the corner while we figure this out.

It's bizarre. She says she didn't do cartwheels, but she definitely did. There's an interview with Diane Sawyer and she's like, I didn't do cartwheels, but I definitely did the splits. But it was like meditative stretching. Also, is Diane Sawyer our third co-host in this podcast? Like literally? Should we ask if she could come on? She comes on every episode, I feel. History of Diane Sawyer? Let's do it. Let's do it. Yeah, the splits though, it's like we get it. I don't tease myself on that one. Claire can do the splits and it's very impressive.

But it's like, I wouldn't be doing them in the police station. You sure wouldn't. I'd hope not. I would hope not. We'll see. I guess we never know. We'll never know until we're in that situation. That's true. And Lord knows, hopefully, we will never be. So this is kind of the start of, obviously, this huge murder has happened. But Amanda is standing out with her bizarre behavior. Yeah. So...

Now what do we do? Who should we start questioning? The Italian police are obviously, you know, bringing all the roommates, everyone that she knew, everyone that she's hooked up with. Like, they're getting them in the police station. And obviously they're questioning Amanda and Raffaele because they had interactions with her. So their contradictory statements would be the first of many things that, like, thrust this situation into...

What's it called? That expression of the fire. There's fuel onto the fire? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That one of just like, what the fuck is going on? Like, you guys are weird. And now you're saying that different... Your alibis are different that night. Give me the alibis. Sure. So...

Meredith is questioned for... Meredith? Meredith. Not Meredith. Amanda. Amanda is questioned for a night of very grueling interrogation. I believe she's there for 14 hours. They don't feed her. They don't give her water. And let's keep in mind that the language barrier is really tough because they don't like her. They don't really like Americans to begin with. And so they're not being gentle. They're speaking in Italian. She's not understanding. They're being impatient. The splits probably didn't help. Splits.

didn't help. She's annoying as hell. So she ends up after this 14 hour interrogation, she signs a confession in which she admits to being in another room of the flat while her lay chic boss, remember Lumbumba, Patrick Lumbumba, Lumbumba killed Meredith. Whoa.

So alongside with the confession, Amanda and Raffaele's problems are complicated by their changing accounts of the night in question. At first, they claimed that they were together that night. Then they said they were apart for a few hours. Then they said they couldn't remember. And with that and the seemingly like carefree attitude that they displayed after this whole thing happened, they go out the next day.

Wait, what? What? With each other. What? After they've been questioned for 14 hours and stuff? The next day they go out to a lingerie store. She says that it was not lingerie. She just needed underwear because she was all out. Uh-huh. Everyone has noticed that she did go into some sort of panty store, if you will. Okay. Yeah.

I just have to make a point about the 14-hour interrogation and signing a confession after that. Please. I do think that that's always tough for me to be like, she signed a confession, she's confessing to it. Because when you're truly going through mental torture in a way, you do whatever you can to get out of it. I'm not saying she's innocent. I'm just saying that makes it tougher. That's a very good point, and I completely agree. Absolutely.

At the same time, they were also threatening her. If you don't tell us what happened, you're never going to see your family again. She is a young woman. Foreign country. Doesn't speak the language. She said that they were also physically abusive to her at this point. That they would hit her on the head being like, remember, remember. Oh my God. So she's panicking and she ends up just signing this thing to be like, this is who did it. Let me off the hook. And it wasn't me, but it was my boss. Yes. I'm so curious to how they got there. Sure.

November 15th, 2007, an incriminating kitchen knife is reported to have been found in Raffaele's home, Amanda's boyfriend's home. So the eight-inch knife has traces of Kircher's DNA on the blade and Knox's DNA on the handle. Oh.

Rafael Le later writes that he had once accidentally pricked Kircher's hand while the three of them were cooking because the three of them had hung out quite a bit in their short amount of time together. Okay, but like how did you get her hand?

Weird. That's weird. Like when you're cooking, you're not just like, whoopsie, got you. Like you get yourself, but not someone else. Right. Like was he like doing like that ghost thing like behind your back? This is how you cut the tomato. I don't like that. So not with a knife. You're not that cute just because you're Italian. Yeah. So once he says the three of us were cooking, this ignites.

The three, this threesome rumor that this, why are like, why is Meredith hanging out with this couple? God forbid. Yeah. Like, God, I wonder what my rumors would be at this point. They're like, you're just always with you and Corey. It's a triple, sweetie. But people like always want to put something with sex. Exactly. So now people are like, what the fuck? Like, this is so interesting. This had to be very, very sexual. What's going on? What's going on?

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So at this point, Amanda's like, okay, hold on. I need to make another statement of saying what actually happened. She's like, that first time I was delirious, I was traumatized. I want to go back and like without having some time to like really process and give a statement that is truthful.

It is show long, so I'm just going to read a couple quotes from it and then paraphrase it. Is it in the U.S.? Like, has it come out yet that this has happened? There's an American girl. Or has this not... Because she hasn't been accused of anything yet. It's not, like... It's come out everywhere that there has been a murder. It's big in, obviously, Italy. And maybe, like, wherever Meredith was from. In the U.K., yeah. But nothing at this point is, like...

What it is now. As bad as it's going to get. Got it, got it, got it. Because it's still like, it's the transition from like, oh, you're weird to like, we hate you and you did this. So she starts out the statement. She goes, all of this is very strange. I know. But really what has happened is just as confusing to me as it is to everyone else. I've been told there's hard evidence saying that I was at the place of the murder of my friend when it happened. This I want to confirm is something that to me, if asked a few days ago, would be impossible.

I know that Raffaele has placed evidence against me saying I left him during the night of Meredith's murder. But let me tell you this. In my mind, there are things I remember and things that are confused. My account of the story goes as follows, despite the evidence stacked against me. So she basically says that she saw Meredith for the last time.

Around three or four in the afternoon that night before the murder. Raffaella was with her. They stayed at her house for a little longer. Around five in the evening, they went to watch the movie Amelie. That little French, cute, like manic pixie dream girl. With short hair, red and green behind her. Yes. No. Got it. Got it. Got it. After the movie, I received a message from Patrick, her boss.

for whom I work at the club Les Chic, he told me the message that it wasn't necessary for me to come into work for the evening because there was no one at the club. Okay. So she ends up saying, cool, I'll see you later in Italian. Like, buonasera. Ci vediamo. Okay. So in her Italian and kind of like the, like,

This is the problem with the translation and the language barrier that she's like, see you later. And then when they're interpreting her text, they're like, oh, she's like, I'll see you later. I do think that's reading into it a little bit. Yeah, like you can't like interpret tone in a court for evidence. It's like you can't. That's the trouble with texting. Trouble with texting. You never know tone, truly. I'll see you later. I'll see you later. We're going to do it.

Um, so she says what happened next. I, I, I know doesn't match up with what Raffaele was saying, but this is what I remember. I told Raffaele that I didn't have to work so I could remain home for the evening. After that, I believed, uh,

It is interesting, quick note, that she keeps saying, I think, I believe, I remember, instead of like, this is what we did. I know that there's still cloudy trauma. Yeah, but you know what you did. Like, I think, yeah, you know what you were doing. Only a couple weeks after this, like, I'd be able to be like, we watched this movie, we had sex. Especially if you weren't, like, anywhere near the murder. Like, I don't know. Yeah, it's just a bit bizarre. And so she keeps using these terms, I believe, and

All of this is pre-trauma, by the way. So it's not like this would not be cloudy to you. That is very true. Wow. That's a good point. She goes, I believed we relaxed in his room together. Perhaps I checked my email. Perhaps.

I studied, or perhaps I made love to Raphael. Okay, Amanda, cool it. Like, I feel like you're trying to write a novel here. In fact, I think I did make love with him. However, I admit that this period of time is rather strange because I'm not quite sure. I smoked marijuana with him, and I might even have fallen asleep.

We've all been there, haven't we? We have, but also like Claire and I smoke and you're not like, what did we do that night? No, you really are not. You're very well aware of it. Unless you're crossfaded. Yeah, but even then, like, yeah, no, I think that's, she's truly like, I'll just say I'm high and so I don't remember things and all the stoners are like, what? Yeah, they're like, sweetheart, it doesn't pass. No, it does not. It doesn't check out.

She says they took a shower. This may explain how we passed the time. In truth, I don't remember exactly what day this was, but I do remember that we showered and cleaned ourselves for a long time. He took care of my ears and he brushed my hair. I don't like that.

What does taking care of your ears mean? Like, Q-tipping? Gross! Don't touch me with a Q-tip. For someone else to do that for you? No, Q-tipping is so delicate. Like, there could be so much damage done. You can't have someone else do that for you. And, like, why? And why is he brushing her hair? It's just, like, she's trying so hard. Do less. Do less. It's, like, super codependent. It's very troubling. And just creepy. But also, like, why are you guys cleaning yourselves for so long? Because you murdered your roommate? The shower thing always reminds me of, like, Legally Blonde, you know? I was in the shower. Yeah.

Like an excuse for everything. And you get perms often? Once a day. Or what is it? She's like, yeah, something for like my whole life. Every three months. We could talk on and on about that. I thought it was huge. Sorry. So many parallels. Love it. Love it. So,

God, I mean, like the rest of this fucking thing is just like really vague. She says around 11 in the evening, although I can't be sure because I didn't look at the clock. After dinner, I noticed a little blood on Raffaele's hand, but I was under the impression that was blood from the fish, right?

After we ate, Raffaella washed the dishes, but the pipes under his sink broke and water flooded through the floor. But because we didn't have a mop, I said we could clean up tomorrow because we, Meredith, Laura, Philomena, and I have a mop at home. So you just let your pipes explode everywhere and kept it like wet? Guess so. So that's why she went back to her place in the morning. In the morning. To bring back, to get clothes because she like didn't. Yeah. And a mop? Yeah.

Okay, so really she doesn't know what happened at all that night. Not really. So she says that in her confession under this pressure that in her mind she saw Patrick in flashes of blurry images.

I saw him near the basketball court. I saw him at my front door. I saw myself cowering in the kitchen with my hands over my ears. Wait, what? Amanda's saying this all of a sudden? She's saying that the night that the first time that she wrote that statement, she felt like she was making up these images in her head of what could have happened. And that's why she said that Patrick did it. Even though she was like, I was delirious. And I was like, I was just completely out of my mind. Like she was like fantasizing about the murder.

And that's what she saw. She saw Patrick. If I was Patrick, I'd be like, fuck off. Well, yeah. I mean, like, that's a crazy thing to do. Yeah. But I guess if someone, on the other hand, let's say that they're threatening her and they're physically abusing her and they're like, who did it? Say someone did it. Like, just say someone. And she's like, um, it's my boss, so I don't really know that well. Totally. He's this creepy Italian, you know? Totally. Like, who the fuck knows? Yeah.

But, yeah, I mean, this just goes on and on. Nothing is very – nothing else is, like, super important. But she's basically just like, this doesn't make sense. My head is full of contrasting ideas. I know it can be frustrating to work with me for this reason, but I also really want to tell the truth the best I can. Everything I have said in regards to my involvement in Meredith's death, though contrasting, are the best truth I've been able to think. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

Does she have a lawyer at this point? So her mom has now sent over a lawyer from the States because her first interrogation, she was just all by herself without any representation. Zip it. And now her mom, I don't know exactly the timeline, but her mom has sent someone for her being like, go fucking help her. Right. Zip it. Unless like, I mean. Zip it. Oh God. So.

Right now, we have this kind of crazy girl who's like, I don't fucking know. I'm like visualizing my boss who's like, what the fuck? I'm trying to keep my business alive. Yeah. I can't get over that also she's like, maybe we made love. Maybe we didn't that night. I know he brushed my hair. And definitely cleaned my ears. People are like, ew. Gross. It's so weird. Gross. Yeah. But still at this point, we have the knife that obviously has all of their DNA on it. So people are still investigating that.

The second piece of evidence that we have against Amanda is the bra clasp of Meredith's

Retrieved from Meredith's room nearly seven weeks after the murder. Wait, Meredith's bra clasp was retrieved from? From her room. Okay. That was like a pile on the clothes or pile of clothes on the bed that has Raffaele's DNA on the clasp.

That does not help their case and does not help the threesome case if someone wanted to look at it that way. Exactly. So that really was the thing to solidify. Because that bra class wasn't the bra that she, because she was naked. Was she wearing that bra earlier? Do they know? How could they know? So that's the thing. She wasn't wearing it. Right.

Probably the night of the murder. It was among her clothes. Also, like we do have to keep in mind that DNA is a fucking crazy thing. If she, let's say she was cooking that night with Raffaele, she's wearing a tank top. Your bra's out. Someone, he brushes his hand against her back. Like a big hug or something. Exactly. So it's not really like, that's the one.

So now to offer a bit more solidified and concrete evidence. While all of this is happening, Amanda's being kept in jail. So is Raphael. Raphael A. But on the other hand, we have another, what's the word? Suspect? Suspect. Suspect. I have another. I'm like, you know the one. So we have another one. They find a match.

For unknown fingerprints that coincide with a man, a 20-year-old man from West Africa named Rudy Gwaday. Okay. So this man had been investigated by the police before. He had a history of break-ins. Is my hair crazy? No, it doesn't look crazy. I just felt a bunch of it coming out of my headphones. No, some of it's coming out, but it doesn't look crazy. But maybe go like...

See if I just like get it back in. Okay. Is that better? Yes, it's gorgeous. Okay. So he had a history of break-ins, theft. Is it still? No, no, it's, sorry, I don't know why I'm looking at you through the phone. I'm like, am I high right now? I didn't smoke anything. Okay, sorry. I'll look at you, your face. So the night before this all happened, actually, he had been caught red-handed breaking into a nursery home. A nursery home? A nursery home. Oh.

What is the nursery home? Like for babies or for like plants? I was like, first I read this, I was like, a plant place? I think like a child, like a children's school. Gross. But no one was there. No one was there, but he just stole a bunch of shit. Why can't you steal from a nursery home? I guess like if it's a school, technically, like they said that he stole like a laptop and cell phones and stuff. So maybe a teacher's stuff. Totally, totally, totally. Yeah.

So this was his history. Rudy and Meredith actually knew each other because he would be seen hanging out at the apartment below them, smoking pot with the guys that lived there. So they had had very casual interactions before. So all of a sudden they're like, okay, this is a good potential suspect. It matches the scene of the crime. His fingerprints are on her.

So what's going on? Where the fuck is he? We need more information. Fingerprints were on her body. But... Again, DNA. DNA. And this is where it gets interesting. So they're like, where is this man? They ask his friend, Rudy's friend, to come to the police station and trick him to talk over Skype. Being like, hey, man, I'm just at my house. What you doing? Would you do that to me? Yes. No. No.

Someone all of a sudden was like, I think Claire is like the number one suspect in this like murder for someone that we knew. I think I would have to. You would have to. And I would give you permission to do that. And please do it to me too. Because if I'm innocent, I'm innocent. And if I'm not, then I deserve it. I think it would take... I don't... God. I mean, that's almost like...

I don't know. You ask this question a lot to your friends of like, if I did murder someone, like, would you help me like, you know, hide the body sort of thing? And it's like, no, no, I would not. I would be, because who's saying that's me also? Like that's fucked up. The trust is lost by that point. So yeah, I think we have to hold our friends and love. I agree. And I'm proud of you for saying that you would, you would do that to me. And, and you, and you, me, um, the greatest friend.

form of the Mean Girls three-way call. It's, wow. It really is. So yeah, they're like on Skype and this guy, and so Rudy takes the bait and he's like, hey man, he was like, Jesus, the authorities are looking for me. He's like, I'm hiding in Germany right now. And he's like, I know that they found my fingerprints, but it was from before the murder.

His friend is Jocky Amo. And so Jocky Amo keeps being like, dude, like, what do you mean? Like, that doesn't really make sense. Police are like, come on, keep going. So what he says is that he and Meredith ran into each other the night before the murder. The two of them hit it off. Rudy says that they made a plan to meet up the next night that she was like, I'm going to be all my friends because I'd rather hook up with you. They sort of hooked up.

But they stopped short of intercourse. Which would make sense with that DNA. Because he had an upset stomach from a kebab he ate. Oh, no, Rudy. And started shitting in the toilet. The duty in the toilet. That's where it came from? Gross. Oh, my God. And he, oh, my God. From someone who literally just had food poisoning. Yeah, you're like, I don't like this story at all.

Oh my God. So he says he's in the bathroom for a total... He puts music on. Yeah. Classic. We've all been there, right? We've all been there. Three songs. He hears a doorbell ring. Oh. Out of nowhere, he hears a blood-curdling scream. He leapt off the toilet. That's why it was unflushed. And he saw a man holding a knife. And he saw this man...

It was dark in there because they had obviously been hooking up probably with the lights off. Cut Meredith's throat. That's what he says. He's saying he saw this? Wait, you see they cracked the door open? He runs out of the... Oh. Oh, so he runs. He gets off the toilet, runs out, and he sees this man murdering her. He says he tries to get involved and stop it. And he's struggling with this murderer.

But also, I just have to say, Rudy has no blood, no scratches, no bruises. And also, like, I'm just saying, that's why I thought that he was still in the bathroom because it's like, you would hear the music and then the bathroom door open and then like see something. You wouldn't just be like, I don't know, letting that girl start while someone's watching you.

It's interesting, right? Like nothing is really making sense. And so he says, that's why my prints are all over the house. Cause I was, I went to go gather the towel cause she was bleeding out. So I was trying to like help her. You didn't call someone? No. He says that if he called someone since he was a black man, it would be a, they would just be like, it's you. Your fingerprints are all over her. No one else had to be involved and you're now going to be on trial for this.

That's so complicated. But also, it's like, did he describe who this guy looked like? No. Okay. Rudy, I'm going to need you to go into some more detail. So, nothing's looking great, because at this point, there is identified DNA, and there's not identified DNA from another suspect. His prints are all over her body, all over the towels, all over the apartment. The towels is troubling. Mm-hmm.

Joe, after this little Skype call, they're like, we're going to put out an international warrant for your arrest. Yeah. Things aren't looking great. No. All right, Rammies, who's tired? Who needs a break? Whether you're taking care of your kids, you know we love our Rammie moms, a senior loved one, or juggling both, God bless, we all need and deserve a break sometimes. Care.com can help give you that break by helping you find trusted caregivers in your neighborhood.

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Rammies, I'm going to let you in on a little secret, and I'm going to say something that you probably have never heard a soon-to-be bride say, and that is that I love wedding planning. I have had such an amazing, fun, light experience doing it with my fiance, and that is a huge thanks to Zola. So with Zola, you can plan your entire wedding in one convenient place. You

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wedding from the couch. Do it wherever you want because this is all about you. So here's what you're going to do. You're going to start planning at Zola.com. That's Z-O-L-A.com. You can thank me later. I admit that I did struggle with what to believe when I first heard this because I was like, God, what if there was this random guy that came in that had been... But then, I don't know. I don't... But then if it was a random guy, then it wouldn't be Amanda Knox. Yeah.

I'll keep going. Okay, okay, okay, okay. Oh my gosh, this is crazy. So I also just want to say, this is just really fucked up. Not fucked up. Italian justice system, very different than the U.S. justice system.

So in the U.S., you can be held for 48 hours max when you are trying to decide whether to convict someone or not. In Italy, suspects can be held in police custody for up to one year. Oh, no. While prosecution decides whether to charge that person or not. To charge them? Yes. They can just keep you in there. Oh, my God. As they're like, we're still figuring it out.

Oh, my God. So they finally find this guy in Frankfurt. They find Rudy. He's trying to hop a train. Obviously, there's a warrant out for him. So they stop him. And on July 2008, so this is now quite some time after. Amanda's still being held in the... She's still being held? She is. And so is Rafael, eh? And they haven't been charged with it. I mean, they do for another like six months. Mm-hmm. So Rudy is charged for the murder.

Wow. He asked for a fast track trial, which means that there's no actual trial. There's no jury. The judge just decides. And this allows for a reduction of a sentence by a third. What does that benefit anyone? He's still he is still pleading innocent. OK, OK. And he gets a little bit off the hook.

Because he admits and gives the police information that, well, I feel, you know, like, sure, I'm being charged for this. I'm innocent. But you know who you should really be looking at? Amanda and Raffaele. Why did he say that? Good question, Claire. Oh, my God. Of, like, all people, it's not like he's been in the mix being like they are being accused, too. And she had two other roommates. So it's not like, well, she's her only roommate. So that's just an easy suspect. Yep. Yeah.

So he's not really making sense. I mean, obviously the evidence against Rudy is overwhelming at this point. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He, you know, admitted to being in the room. He flees the country. The handprints under her body. One of the shoe prints is his. There's DNA inside her. Poop in the toilet was his. I mean, like, sweetheart. That's tough. Maybe you should just... Because if you say you're guilty, don't you get... You get, like, less, I think, sometimes. Yeah. But he's just saying no. And...

I mean, also though, I guess having to relieve yourself is a pretty common thing.

thing that happens to like burglars or robbers because of the sense of adrenaline, the guilt, the shame, and that you kind of like shit. What? Yeah. So this is like a common thing that happens in crime. Oh my God. So, you know, he really could have just been like, I'm about to kill this woman and I just had to relieve myself. Or after he did it, he's like, you know, like when you throw up kind of after something horrible happens. Yeah. If he did actually do that and just like left that in the toilet, like what an idiot. Yeah.

So now he's saying, well, it was supposed to just be a robbery because... Wait, Rudy? So yeah, Rudy is saying this. He's like, I admit that I did break in. Rudy. It was supposed to be a robbery. I had nothing to do with the murder. Wait, no, that doesn't actually make sense now because I'm thinking that he said that they hooked up. Huh. I need to fact check that. Okay, we'll fact check it. He was... Why do I have my notes? He was supposed... Well, it also could be different like documentaries. That's true. Because I do have something, guys. I'll clarify this. Yeah. That...

It was supposed to be a robbery. Then he said that Meredith came home that night and interrupted it. Yikes. However... I'm just like, that doesn't make me believe that you didn't murder her if you were robbing her house and she came home. No, and also he still stands by that it was this man that was killing Meredith, some random man. But he says that Meredith was there and knew about it. About his robbery? Knew that she was being murdered. Like, Meredith was in the apartment while it happened. Okay. Yeah.

But that doesn't, that's not really concrete. No, no, no. So October 28th, 2008, the judge finds Rudy guilty, 30 years in prison. But it was reduced to 16 years implicating two other people in the crime, like I mentioned before. And also because he was young and his criminal record was like that of like stealing cell phones. Right. Wasn't like, yeah. So, um, bum, bum, bum, bum.

So at this point, once again, not concrete evidence for Amanda, Raphael, no one. But the judge is like, if Rudy's saying that you guys have something to do with it, we got to keep you guys involved in this. Nobody likes you. It seems to be some like accomplice sort of situation that they're guessing. And he ordered that the two should also stand on trial for the murder.

So the judge sentenced Rudy to 30 years. Or wait, yes, I already said that. So October 16th, 2009. So two years after the murder actually happened? Now Amanda and Raffaele are put on trial. Oh my God. So she's just been sitting in an Italian jail? She sat in there for four years. Oh.

Oh my God. So though investigators found no trace of their DNA at the crime scene, except for that fucking kitchen knife in the bra class. The kitchen knife is so dicey to me. But couldn't that just be like... Did they not wash it? Like, I guess I don't know DNA because I'm just like, you didn't wash your knife? The prick is weird. Like, it's weird. It is weird. It's dicey. It sure is. So...

Wait, it's Raphael's kitchen knife. Yes. Again, though, we don't know. Like, just because it's Raphael's kitchen knife, maybe they borrowed it to cook a meal and Amanda used it and then she used it and cut herself, like...

So you can't see the timeline for DNA. Right. Just because it's his knife doesn't mean he only gets to use it. Yeah. Like all cases would be so much easier if it was like, oh, the DNA was on here at 9 p.m. Yeah, totally. Rather than three days ago. Because also DNA stays on things for a really long time. Wow. Maybe I don't care about the knife anymore then. But hey, but they are using that. And that like they have this long game to try to prove that they had this sex.

gone murder, gone like the three of them were involved with this because they like did naughty sex games. So this is what really starts to happen. Because I, now that you say that, because when I was sitting here, I was thinking, I was like, what would their motive be? And it was like a love triangle. Okay. Yeah.

Exactly. Bingo. So that's really what starts to happen, you know, even shortly after. But now we're 2009. You know, she's been there forever. People, Italians hate Amanda. British people hate Amanda because of what happened.

She may or may not have done to their own. Marta, one of our friends Marta is Italian and she DM'd us on Instagram and said that she was excited for us to do this episode because Italians hate her and Americans stick up for her or something like that. I think initially they were like, I remember Trump tweeted in like 2008 being like, we got to get her back. Trump, shut up.

Zip it. Zip it. Some of the phrases used to describe Amanda during this time in her trial. Sex-crazed she-devil was actually used by the chief prosecutor. What? Giuliano Minghini. Giuliano. Giuliano. Foxy Noxy is like the biggest one.

That's not okay, guys. Articles about her and the situation. Man-eater. Killer orgy. Shameless in Seattle. The Ice Maiden. Weeping Foxy is free to make a fortune. Knox-led ritual killing. Housework friction of Foxy Knoxy. Dead girl feared Knox's sex toys.

I mean, it goes on and on. Oh, my God. They asked Amanda to make a list of her sexual partners. They said, no one's ever going to see this. We just need to know. What? We need to know who you've been sleeping with. We already have that list ready to go. Yeah, like pull up Google. Everyone has a list. And if you say that you don't, you're a liar. There's those who have the list and those who are liars. I'm just kidding.

Oh my God. So she writes down seven people and they're like, slut, you're so slutty. You've slept with seven people. She's like 21. That's horrible. Horrible. They, um, asked to do, um, an exam, um,

Of her? Why does she need to have an exam? What? They tell her that she has HIV. What? Wait. What? Even though she doesn't. Because they want her to say, basically admit to being the list of seven was a lie. They are wanting her to prove this point that she was a sex

Like manic sex deviant. Because then that will be like, that makes sense. You killed her in the sex act. Because you're a slut. Yeah. So they're slut shaming her. There's no actual, not like there can ever be concrete evidence if you are quote slutty because that's not a thing. That's just what men have told us for generations. But that's what they are trying to do to her, to make her crack. This is a Salem with trials all over again. Interesting. Absolutely.

Absolutely no woman deserves to be held in a prison for this long without actual evidence. Absolutely not. Being lied to, being forced to reveal her sexual partners. Like, there's— Does that make a difference? That is wild. Also, is Raphael being asked to do this? No, Raphael's still being held in there, but he is absolutely not being asked about anything sexually or about his personal life. Why did they tell her she had AIDS?

To just make her crack? They wanted to scare her and be like, once again, if you just say you did it, like, because now, like, you could be dying. Like, if you have AIDS, like. Oh, my God. Guys, what? They were horrible to her. So, yeah, they're asking, like, well, who did you use protection with and who didn't you use? She said that people, they would spit on her. They refused to speak English with her. They refused to give her a translator.

So she was abused in this Italian jail. She was. I just don't understand, like, if you don't give her a translator and you refuse to speak English, like, how are we going to get anywhere? Literally. Oh, my God. They wouldn't give her a chance. And they made up this story. They stuck to it. Foxy Noxy was...

You know, I mean, people were vicious and relentless. No kidding. So the pair were sentenced to 26 to 25 years, respectively, for their part in the murder. Which they still haven't said what that is, really, have they? It's the knife, the bra...

Rudy saying that they had something to do with it and their weird behavior. Okay. So like weird behavior does not a murderer make, even though like plenty of murders, all of them have weird behavior, but you can't, that's not concrete evidence. No, it's just not. And so like, this is like an unjust trial. So yeah. So, um, bum, bum, bum, bum, bum. So at this point people are sort of like, wait a second. Like there's like a little bit of divide of like, do these people deserve justice?

25 years. I mean, the Italians still hate her. And Raphael, but yeah, he never got the fucking brunt of it. Wow. Completely different. So June 2011, 18 months after the pair had received their guilty verdict, we're jumping ahead a little bit, the appeal finally began. So June 2011, the two had already spent four years in prison as a result of their bail being denied. Oh, wow.

But then in 2013, the Italian Supreme Court made the shocking announcement that they were calling Amanda and Raffaele to be tried again for the murder because, according to CNN, there was a possibility that there was vital evidence that had not been considered. And there were outstanding questions about the pair's inconsistent answers back to the beginning where she said all the shit, but she said she was being tortured, etc.

And, you know, Italy was just like, yeah, we don't care. Bring them back in. Like, we don't trust them. We need to like, we need to figure this out. Yep. However, in March 2015, they were finally released and there was no evidence that they could come up with that would help.

But like that's kind of the thing, guys. Like if there's not evidence, you can't be like, we're going to hold them until we can find that evidence to convict them. It's just not fair. Just because you want someone to be guilty does not mean that they are guilty. Exactly. And so like, you know, towards the end of the research, I did kind of feel like,

Like, I was like, God damn, they're so crazy. This is really sketchy. Like, and then it sort of was like, womp, womp. I was like, I don't know if like. I actually, so I went into this thinking that you thought that they did it. Did you think that? Or did I just assume that because you thought she was losery? Yeah.

I used to think that she did. Okay. Because of her nature and because of her coldness. And, you know, she made comments like during the initial trial, like her friends were there being like, I just hope she didn't suffer. And Amanda would be like, she got her fucking throat slit open. Of course she suffered. That I was like, you...

I was 100% certain she knew something or had involvement of it. I think as I have aged a little bit. Yes. In my wisdom. And known the world a little better. I think I'm just like, there is such thing as like interrogations that are abusive and manipulative. Totally. So what do you think?

Let me just quickly say. Yeah, yeah. Go, go, go. So she's finally released March 2015. March 2019, she's given some money for being like, sorry that we did that to you. Guess how much the Italians gave her? $5,000. They gave her $21,000. Okay. That's not enough. For fucking like four years in prison. Years of your life. Years of like going back being like, wait, we think you actually did it. And, you know...

$21,000? You couldn't even round up to $25,000? Literally. Make it a quarter, you know? Oh my God. A quarter of six figures. What?

So, you know, to this day, she says hindsight is 20-20. She was young. She was scared. She didn't know, you know, all the things I've said before. You know, she didn't know the language. She was abused. Blah, blah, blah. Blah, blah, blah. Amanda Knox is like, please. The thing I don't appreciate about her is that since then, she will do any interview that she is asked to do about it. When I was searching for podcasters, people discussing this, it was flooded with her being honest.

I actually did call her today. Oh, you did?

Amanda. Oh my God. I did that on UFOs too. So scary kind of. Every time I just like want to act like we have our guests. We don't. We don't have a guest yet. She would fucking come on this though. Should we DM her? Like maybe. I'm like scared. I'm still scared of her. And she might not want to listen to this episode. No, I mean, you know, I think she's sick of it, but she's, you know, obviously done. She was in part with the Netflix documentary. She's like narrating it essentially. Can I make a case for her? Yes.

Her life has totally been ruined by this whole thing. She's not going to be able to get a normal job. The only way she can literally sustain her life is kind of by capitalizing on this. Even though, but I mean, I guess that's not necessarily true. She can move to Wisconsin. She can move somewhere. Also, actually...

We would not still be talking about Amanda Knox if there wasn't this many documentaries and stuff making it, maybe. I mean, I don't know. I think, and I totally agree with you. I think like...

There is something that when bad things happen to you and tons of women that they're like, well, fuck, at this point I'm getting offered millions of dollars for a book deal. You know, like Monica Lewinsky. Like, you know, she had to do all this stuff to be like, well, my life, I now can't get a job. Not to compare them because they're obviously different people. Yeah, I think that's very different. But like just in that way where it's like then you're kind of known for something and that's all you can get is like publicity income. Totally.

But at this point, this was, you know, a very long time ago. It's 15 years ago. Yeah. And she still is doing it right now. And yeah. And she's capitalizing on behalf of someone's murder when it like, you know, it's not something that happened to her necessarily, but someone it's kind of disrespectful. Yeah.

It is disrespectful because no one knows about Meredith. No. No one knows her full name. What's her last name again? Kircher. Yeah. Meredith Kircher. Yeah. And so like, you know, and she's not talking about Meredith in these things. She's not talking about her as a friend, who she was as a person, her experiences she had as a student in Italy. She's just defending herself to this day. And also for podcasts, you don't get fucking money every podcast you go on. That's true.

So true. For a book deal, sure. For Netflix, yes. You definitely don't with podcasts. I think with most podcasts, you don't unless it's like an insane one. No, unless like it's really hard to get on, but she'll do anything. So it just seems, I think she is a narcissist. So whether she's a murderer or not, I don't really believe she physically did it. She's not a, something is not right. Yeah, yeah, for sure. I mean, just with that quote in the beginning, it's like, honey, that's...

She's just weird. So now she's married, she has a baby, she lives in Seattle. She has been working with the Innocence Project, a nonprofit organization dedicated to putting an end to wrongful convictions. Which is a great project. Yes. What do you take from all of this?

I came in here being like, I don't know anything about this, but I know from the media kind of thing that I think it's Amanda Knox who did it. So I'm going to try to go in with the open mind. And now I'm like, I don't think that she did it. I agree with you. I don't think she did it. It sounds like Rudy did it. It really does. Yeah. But I do think that there's some weird things going on. I think her accounts of everything are very strange. Yeah.

I think, yeah, I think she's just a strange person. And I agree with you. I think it's like really disrespectful what she's doing to capitalize on it. I don't know her and her like personally what she's going through in life. So I don't know what she needs to get through all of this and the trauma that she might have gone through in jail. But it's kind of like enough already. Yeah.

Yeah. I want to know what Meredith's parents think. They hate her. Hate really? Well, I mean, if this was all happening, also, I'd be like, please let me heal from this. And you won't because you keep talking about it.

Yeah, so I think she's a disrespectful loser. What's Raphael doing? Raphael. What is Raphael doing? Once again, that kind of represents like I didn't even look that up. Yeah, totally. And that's like my bad as like a researcher and someone that's like presenting this. Right answers mostly. True. I don't know what he's fucking doing. I know that he doesn't – he's not involved with it. They don't talk. He doesn't put out interviews or podcasts. Obviously, she got –

The crux of it. Because she's a woman. Because she's a woman and she was slut shamed. Yeah. Which once again, I do not think is acceptable in any way, shape or form. Absolutely not. I think Rudy at this point did it. I think whether he had planned to have a break in and then, I mean, why does anyone murder? To me, it seems like it probably was a break in gone wrong.

And he got scared by her coming home and then, like, lost it. I mean, again, like, who knows? Yeah. I mean, if all the evidence really points to this guy...

He got released in 2016. Oh, wow. Wow. That wasn't even that long. No. Because he kept getting a shortened sentence. God, poor Meredith's family. Just to never really know what happened to your daughter who went abroad, that is just devastating. I mean, it's like every parent's worst nightmare. Worst nightmare. Everyone's, I'm sure, every parent's scared when their kid goes abroad, or even to

college and then going to a different, you know, country. And then right after you get there. Oh, my God. You're brutally and unexpectedly and, like, you're just. And then again to, like, it's not even, it's not even, nothing's honoring her. Yeah. Yeah. It's all about Amanda Knox now. Yeah. So it's complicated. Like, I think, like, as I talked about in the beginning, there's a lot of, like, potential dialogue around, like,

how we treat women in these situations. I'm like, that is really the, that is the story of, of the murder of Meredith Kircher. That's the story. And we honor Meredith. Unfortunate, um, involvement in it, whether she did it or not. You know, a lot of things can be true and your feelings about these things. And I think that totally like both of these things can be true. There's not happiness in the story. There is not happiness. Taylor Swift. There is, um,

Yeah. Still questions. Still questions and still just something to think about. Like, I think all of us can think about how we interpret women's sexual history, sexual nature, and just to be aware of it, of what we say about other people too, how that can perpetuate into something really dangerous. Yeah.

No, I think that was, I'm so glad that you did this. It was so fun. I don't know if there's been a subject, maybe Whitney, that I haven't truly known like anything about. Same, I mean, I forgot most of all, all of it, really. Wow. So fascinating. So fun to have fun in a terrible subject.

Wow. Thanks for sticking with me through that. Oh, my God. I loved it. I have to say, I was a little bit like, what have I even typed? I was very manic during the research. I think you did a fantastic job. I really feel like— I think I got into the— I got into the— You got into— Now you're you, like, I need to do a light subject. A little bit. We'll do that. Which, if you guys could, like, actually DM us when we ask you to, please. No one never does, really. You out there? We still ask for those fucking letters that we haven't received in the mail.

Would you know an address to send it to? Probably not. Well, that's why we have our email. Send it to the email. Right. And the letters are for advice and then also Valentine's. Love advice. Yeah. Love advice. Right answers mostly at gmail.com. We want them. Send them. Send them. We're never creeped out by anything. No. There's one. Yeah, there is.

Yeah, it's true. But speaking of emails, we have a newsletter that comes out once a week on Thursdays. It has updates. It has a historical fact of the week. And then we go into our favorites of the week.

It's been so much fun. It's so fun. And like always, I love when people respond and they say like, I love that too. Yeah, exactly. We link everything. So, you know, you can like go experience it yourself. Unless like the Spotify link doesn't fucking work. It worked for me. Okay, great. Well then I don't know why it didn't work for me. And then, you know, there'll be a typo or two and we'll figure that out too. But sign up for our email. We will. Yeah. DM us your email if you want to sign up and you can be a part of it. Yeah. Our Ramy community.

We love you guys so much and thanks for always sticking with us even as we're trying to figure shit out, you know? Yeah. That's what this podcast is all about. We're all in this together. I never know. Once we sinned, as we did. It's been true.

Hey, yeah. I don't know if that's in it, but I put that in. Okay, guys. We'll see you next Monday. Yeah, see you Monday. Have a good rest of the week. We love you. We're thinking about you always. Truly. Every second of the day. XOXO. Right answers mostly.