Serial S01 - Ep. 6: The Case Against Adnan Syed
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a really type, really window of time on me. Is that taking place?

right? Alright, ready, rib kay. So I started it's two fifty one and we're making a right out of the best by parking lot. Isn't that sort of tank amount to saying I think jay, telling the truth, i'm saying I think the cell phone was in link in park. This is a global talent prepare call from .

and in made that .

an amErica and correctional facility. From this american life and W, B easy chicago, it's cereal, one story told week by week. I'm Sarah ic.

The most incriminating piece of physical evidence against a nancie was a fingerprint, or rather a palm print on a map. IT was one of those big map books. You buy a gas station.

Police found IT in the back seat of his car. On the back cover was a partial print of a non's left palm. One page was ripped out from the map, a trial.

They pointed out that IT was the page that showed leak in park. The defense argued, well, you can't put a time stamp on fingerprints. There could have been six week old fingerprints or six month old fingerprints.

There's no way to tell. And anna had written in and driven his car many times, all their friends said so the ripped out page showed a whole lot more than just leaking. Park IT showed their whole neighborhood, the school, the mls, probably ninety percent of where they most often drove.

And that page didn't have a nounce prince on IT. His pomp int was only on the back cover of the book, plus thirteen other on identified prints turned up on in in the macbook. None of the matched a non or j, so the prince weren't exactly .

conclusive.

Over the past few weeks i've been holding up bits of evidence hearing there that look bad for a done today. I'm just gonna ay out the rest everything else that a person could reasonably add to the anonymous guilty side of the scale, everything that the state had that I know about some of these i've mentioned before. But let's just hang them all up side by side and see what they look like.

First off, there is a question of whether at none asked him for a ride that day after school, was he looking for an excuse to get in her car so he could kill her? Officer adcock testified that the day he disappeared, a non told him he'd asked her for a ride, then later told a different cup. He didn't asked for a ride then.

You know how a non says he can't really remember much at all about the day hey went missing. I was just a Normal data him, nothing which stands out. I've wondered about that the Normal ness of the day because wouldn't the call from officer adcock asking whether he's seen, hey, just of itself, was in that in a Normal something pretty unusual did happen to you that day, which the police call you and say, do you know where hey, lee is?

喂， oh, no. Well, well, yeah, no. I, I, I, I do remember the phone call, and I do remember being high time, because the crazy thing is to be high and have a police call your phone, you might never forget that.

I guess that's the only thing about the day that seems weird to me that you wouldn't then that the day wouldn't then come into focus for you because you're gotten call from the cops and you know you you were high, you were Young, you know a gary call together or just A A daring call to get.

I mean, at the time, the only thing I really associated with that call, a lot of trouble you get the police are at her house, you know, if her mother actually, you know, for whatever reason, the shooting, you know, go home where he went somewhere else, that's that in no way that associate this call with being, you know, the beginning of this is a whole horrible thing, is not in no way is this like, you know, for shadowing and of the right what's to? So to me, all of this call was, was hadid to get a lot of trouble, you know, her mother's going to fisty when he comes home, right?

To be fair, to be none. If this really was his reaction, then he wasn't the only one. The seriousness of his disappearance didn't start thinking in with her friends for a while.

School was cancelled on january fourteen, fifteen. And because of the ice storm, then the weekend came, then monday was marked with their king day. So the kids didn't all reconvene at school until the following tuesday.

All of his, his friends I spoke to said they initially thought hey had either run off some place with her new boyfriend, or this was another rumor that a lot of people talked about at the time that you d run off to california. Friend said he talked about that sometimes that her dad, or maybe was her stepped dad, was in california and he wanted to go there. They told the cops the same thing next, the night before hay disappeared, a non called her house three times.

IT seems like the only time that actually spoke was the third call at twelve thirty five A M. That's when a none says he was probably calling to give her a new cell phone number. And SHE does write IT in her diary.

Here's something that makes me pause though. If you look at his cell records from that day forward, neither his home number nor her pager shows up again, which suggests he never tried to contact her after he went missing. They were supposedly such good friends, his friend, a issue, said he was paging her like crazy. Did you ever try to page her and just feel like, you know, see if you could find her, raise her, see if you can get .

a response from her. 我的， i can remember I did pay you enough, but we would always talk about IT in school. I would always like, get my information first time for like I who would usually be in contact with A, I be out.

If I can remember, he was like in contact with his family. So I was kind of like I would like with, if not an issue, a Christal or or or I mean, he wasn't like I was sitting around like not even thinking about her, you know, not agent or whatever. But I used to always get my information from them. First hand though, it's not that I don't refer a page or not know. I just seems like I know .

Crystal was trying to page. I know I issue was trying to page during this time that just be like where are you? Where are you? Where are you? And I was wondering if you had were in that group of like where are you.

For you ask me a question.

I don't know. I'm just explaining why. Asking the explaining why I am asking the question is that IT seems like from the relationship you had with her, you would have been one of those people saying, hey, hey, hey, give a hello.

Where are you? okay? We're all worried about you.

No, with dom though, it's not like there in a whole and we we're all see each other every day. We're talking about IT not like, you know, it's not like going to sit there. You like whenever hay comes up in a conversation on leaving, you want to know the side of the classroom or something like that I just involved they are yeah 不是 yes， I I don't you know.

Then there are some straw things that ah I don't know what they mean or if they mean much of anything, but i'm going to tell you about them. In case a note came up a trial after he and non broke up in early november, hay had written a non a frustrated letter. I'm really getting annoying that the situation is going the way IT is.

He wrote, you know, people break up all the time. Your life is not going to end. You'll move on.

I'll move on. But apparently you don't respect me enough to accept my decision. And quote, I used a pitman read this note of trial.

Hey, was her best friend. A none had shown an issue. The letter apparently in health class, and they're written notes to each other on the back.

I, an pencil, a non in pen. They were joking, making fun of hay, making fun of themselves. It's all just silliness. But then at the top of the page that says i'm going to kill in pen, I talk to what you show about IT. And I mean, did you take any of that as as man is saying or anything was so just like part of the joking of the note just seems like you guys are just missing that .

was not on the note when I was writing with IT. So for to see IT later, IT was one of those things where it's like that's weird to see that. But I don't know when that would have been written .

or what the that wasn't part of the conversation .

now because I remember like when you show red through IT, if you just like on IT, IT was our conversation on letter head and at the top of IT IT was kind .

of out of context. okay. Did you take a to mean anything? I mean, you take you to be meaningful?

I guess I don't know because when i'm first seeing that part of IT, IT was sitting in court having to read the rest of a letter.

Police had found the note when they searched a noun's house. But who knows about that one right? Seems like a detail you'd find in a cheesy detective novel.

The other one i'm not sure about is this kind of stray report in the police file. A Y named dave had called the cops and said, my daughter just heard something about a dead body. Dave told the cops.

IT was the neighbor boy who mentioned IT. Dave named the neighbor boy, but i'm just going to call him the neighbor boy. Here's dave. I just remember he had .

told my daughter he had seen A A, the body of a girl in the back of, in the trunk of some vehicle and I seemed to meet that he was, he said I was like an oriental girl or something, but that that tell you.

you just hear daughter ughs tell. Dave gave me his daughter's number. I went to see her right away.

Her name is Laura. Here's what SHE remembered about what the neighbor boy told her that day. He was, he was with a friend.

And the friends says something like, look what I have and pop the trunk and that's what he saw. Do you seem upset? He seem disturbed. Yeah, more like a wow. I can't believe what I just saw kind of almost like he was maybe getting something off his trust, that type of thing.

I asked Laura, did the neighbor I tell you the name of this friend who showed him the body? I think the guys name was maybe adnan. 对。

hm。

So this guy said, my friend, and none showed me the body of a girl on the back of a car. Do you think he was selling the truth? Yes, lord didn't go to woodlawn SHE didn't know at non sh'd known the neighbor ys.

Ince, they were little. They're friendly, Laura said. He never spoke to police about this. They never questioned her.

So this sounds really, really bad, right? That there was another witness besides j, who saw his body, who saw a none with his body. That's huge.

But I called the nighter boy that same night. He's now somebody else's neighbor and he's a man. He was alphago and patient, and he wholly denied this episode.

He was pretty convincing. He said, the only dead body i've seen is on TV god's on this truth, except for my great grandmother, SHE died when I was like nine. The neighbor man said he wasn't friends with a non.

He was friends with jay, though they smoked weed together. I suggested maybe jay told him the story and he kind of appropriated IT and told him to the neighbor or to freak ure out. And he said, no way, quote, I wouldn't kit around about something like that.

The man told me the cops came to see me in ninety nine. And he told them the same thing, the ni thing. And he wrote out a statement to the same effect to a private investigator who was working for the defense and announce case.

I've read IT. This is what's weird, that original police report about David and his daughter, Lauren. It's dated April twenty eighth.

By that time, adnan had already been in jail for nearly two months. But Laura was under the impression that whatever happened to her neighbor had just happened. He told her dad right away, and he called the cops right away.

And I talk to friends of jays who also knew the neibban y, who may said, oh, that I they gave the impression the neighbored was a bit of a carpet, a guy untalented at keeping secrets, which could play either way, I guess. But they meant IT like nobody would tell him anything. They wanted to stay quiet.

The neighbor boy never shows up at trial. He's never mentioned. So I let IT go. But, you know, that is weird. And if lower story is true, then there's another witness to this murder. It's one of the things about this case of of bobs above the water for me, like a disturbing boy.

Then there's Cathy .

that's not a real name and we've changed her voice, but i'm calling her Cathy. I've mentioned her before. He saw a non in j together, acting suspiciously. The word SHE uses as shady at a critical time that evening of the thirteen, the day he disappeared.

If you go by jays story, he brought IT non to cafe his apartment after he picked a non up from track practice, so after he had been killed. But before they went to bury her body is about six o'clock night. And they all three and non J N.

Cathy acknowledge being together at the apartment. There's no dispute about that. Cathy was a close friend of jane.

They were severity sisters. SHE knew jay a little bit, but only through jane. SHE didn't know IT.

None at all. So here was an acquaintance, j, and a stranger who sudenly showed her door. Cathy remembers that night pretty clearly. Her boyfriend jeff was there at the apartment too.

And I was kind of surprise, like little confused. He didn't come unless, you know, he was with john. And nobody had called to say, like, here home, do you want him out? Nothing like that.

So as a little strange that he would just pop up at the door and over me, like, you know, do you anna smoke? Do you want to hang out? And I remember being like working on a second asking jeff, you know, if you wanted, like chaz as the door, know your side for what? And I think he was, I was like, you know, that's cool.

So jack men and he introduce his friend. I don't think he introduce them by name. I think he was just like you. This is a friend of mine.

Kathy remembers jay SAT over by the table and a non settled on the floor on some big cushions that we're there and didn't speak.

Remember, the guy wasn't doing a whole lot of talking like he was just kind of like slumped over. And was all my cushions an iconic thought? I was released. strange. Like, who is this got, you know, like, who is this guy?

When I first heard about Kathy, statement in her testimony didn't seem like a big deal to me. This is a girl who says some kids SHE didn't know who was high was acting strAngely in her living room. I've been that girl for Christ s having to deal with a stone friend of a friend on the living room floor.

And i've probably ly been that weird guy on the floor at least once. But listening a caffey talent all these years later, the way it's stuck with her, how he describes the whole night is just feeling wrong. That also made to stick with me.

Kai thought jay was acting odd as well. He knew him as the super layback stoner guy like shaggy from school by deo. But now he has been conspicious sly chat.

That was your day. What's going on feel like dominated to the conversation room.

SHE says, while jane and none were there. Jane called the apartment. Or maybe IT was SHE who called jane.

SHE can't remember now, but he does remember talking to janne and saying, jays here with some kid who's practically passed out on the cushions. And Jenna, that was curious. Ously, what's jay doing there still, Cathy, that jae been acting weird earlier in the day too. The story Kathy's telling is pretty close to what he told the cops during the investigation. Detective magliari interview Kathy, in march of ninety nine, after a none had been arrested, he told him back then, remember that none saying only one thing to the group, how do I get rid of a high.

I have to meet someone and go do something in is really important in.

Do you have any idea where he was gonna .

who was going to? I'm not clear. What if I remember him saying, have to go talk someone if someone or I have to go do something and not sorry, he, I remember him in part that really important. He live 9 110块 OK。

There are three incoming calls on the colleague that pink towers near Cathy house, six or seven, six or nine and six twenty four pm, that's the longest one problem. More than four minutes. We don't know for sure who they're from, but officer adcock testifies that he calls around this time, and he thinks the six twenty four call is probably him.

And haze brother Young also calls a non around this time, looking for his sister. May I know who the third call is from? Cathy definitely remembers at non getting one phone call while he was out her apartment. He says they're sitting around talking. One of Cathy favorite shows is on the TV judge duty.

The phone rings. And, you know, he answer anything the whole time he had been there. So when he answers the phone, he saying, what am I going to do? What am I going to a, say, they're gna come talk to me, you know, what am I supposed to say? And I remember i'm selling very worry, concern, do you know, like this was whatever was happening was not good on the other line. And I remember being like, wow, you know, wonder what is know is dropping, basically know, wondering what was going on and then i'm not too long after he hung up the phone, he laughed, just bushed out the door left jay follows at none .

out leaves his hatton smokes behind. Kathy says they go down stairs, and then he says they get in a car and just sit there in the car for a while.

And so another outside in the car, and I remember going to the window, like, what are they doing? You know, jeff ter in the cards are just sitting there, what that is going on, just finding the whole situation super odd, super strange and chaff. He just like, didn't give a shit about anything matter, know who cares? And I just remember being like, you know, what is going on .

and was IT was IT like you'd never met the other guy before long non right. So you didn't know what was Normal behavior for him.

not noral behavior for, I mean, anybody. I mean, that was just I me regards whether you know him or not. Clearly you could tell something was going on, something was not going on that wasn't good. And yeah, I mean, was just strange people from anybody. I think that's been the one thing i've always remembered, like how he said, how he looked when he said that is definitely panicked and he's .

definitely worried.

And I can imagine if I was in the position, that's what I would have been saying on the phone to my best friend, you know, my god, what i'm gona do? They're onna. Come talk to me, one of my, to trying to come up with some story quickly.

Many hours later, at the end of the night, jay came back to cat pies again without a none. But this time jan was with them.

I remember being like, so what the fuck? You know, I remember kind of them both being like, oh, nothing know, kind of smoothing over a little bit know in that thing I was kind of like, I was no big deal know but that kind of think but you could definitely tell IT was a big deal and whatever was going almost kind of like a secret or you because, again, I were best friends. I mean, I mean, we talked about everything.

I mean, we were I mean, we didn't do anything without talking about IT. Or, you know, I knew what he was wearing in the morning. I knew, wish I was going at night. I knew know if he talked on the phone, so was a little strange that when I say so, what happened? You know, I didn't get a fall like account.

The next time I talked to a non, I told him how Cathy still remembered all this stuff, how shady the whole scene was for her. And he said then, on a bunch of levels, with catcher to sade didn't hold much water with him. First of all, if someone had called him to warn him, the police were about to call. Why would he then answer the phone when the police called?

I mean, if I was expected, at least tell me if I want to answer to my phone, then know, I think I could just turn the phone and off for something that's a good time and were gone in the scenario on shine to avoid the police mean, I wouldn't pick up the phone and engage them in a conversation well.

but there is also the other thing where you just like, is that Normal everything you're sure hi yeah yeah I don't know. I saw after school oh no you know like where you try to just play a cool.

But then I still leaves this as the third person, this third individual, right? This seem to make more sense that I have this conversation with j but clearly, from what you said that I was not talking to, I was talking someone on the phone, right?

right? Her story would imply a third man, a coconina ira, or someone had none, would be on the phone with who clearly knew about the murder. So who would this third .

color be first? So at some point, her memory out to benefit me IT doesn't benefit me.

I mean, it's that's a hard one IT. Her testimony does not look good for you, you know, because she's not really connected to jay. She's not connected to you, you know, she's a little bit more objective, I would say.

And SHE really thought you were acting very strAngely, you know? So I didn't. It's not good for you what he has to say.

I mean that I mean is the only listen to you, but I kind of think that is is not good for me if a person believes an area of which j is say, but if you don't believe the nar which is say or a person question is, what did SHE says specifically that links me to haze murder? You know, he didn't SHE didn't say that he saw me with any type of equipment or materials or dirty clothes, or this traveled or anything like that.

Well, me, what I got certainly know is something i'm used, but i'm definitely going used that you know, something that I feel really all this in the is in the context of her believing, okay, well, maybe he he did this or he charged with this. And you know what? Now all this make sense, or whatever, which of itself may not have been estranged had I never been charged with this, like I seriously, you would gave this a second thought. And i'd never been charged with haze murder.

Maybe maybe not.

There's a second person who puts jane anne together that night and that's jen. You know how last episode we talked about those two incoming leakin part calls on the colleague at seven or nine and seven sixteen when jay says they were bearing, hey, the ones where we think the cell phone really was in lacan park. Well, gene has a camel in that scene.

Jen says SHE was one of those incoming calls, SHE said. SHE called the cell phone around that time, looking for jay, but that a non picked up, he didn't identify himself, but he assumed IT was a non. Here's from her .

police interview .

when I caught them, I not enter the phone.

And so jane will come you back when you're when he's right, for you can give him, or for you can meet him or whatever, just how you wings, right? And so that's all like .

you very quick and very, you know, if jane story is true.

IT does look in awful a lot like a non was in lin park that night, busy not handing the phone over to jay the second time jen puts them together that night is pretty soon after that when he picks j up sometime after eight o'clock so in jays timeline, after theyve already buried hey. SHE says he had arranged to meet him in the parking lot of west view mall SHE says he saw them arrive in .

a non's car and and I said, hi to me so he was a girl and I was OK. He was up and then you left the park in out and person j told me.

say, what's up there? How would you just ride? You seem just like, you know, this seems on the announce .

that details always stuck with me too. The one says that none seems so Normal, SHE says neither his nor jays closing muster dirty anna doesn't remember seeing Janet west view mall or where he dropped off jay that night. And jay doesn't say he met Janet web either matter fact j says consistently that had none dropped him off at home and then jen showed up at his house to get him.

Jay stuck to that even at trial, when IT contradicted jane story. The thing about jane, Cathy, though, is that even if they don't look great for a non, they don't actually contradict ton's own account of that evening, which I think is why he kind of shrug them off. And I am sometimes tempted to shrug them off, because none has always admitted he was hanging out with jay that night.

So, so what if a couple of people saw them together? What is that proof? But now we come to the big one, the one nobody can struck off this call will.

This is a bad metaphor for a phone call, but of all the calls on the log, this is the one I think of as the smoking gun call. It's tinisha call. Think of IT as a title capitalized.

The ntia call between knew in five pm that day, there are seven outgoing calls on the log. Six of them are to people janos. The seventh is tinisha.

Someone only had done, knew a non story is that in his cell phone were separated that day from lunch time all the way until after track at around five something. But the new year call happens at three thirty two pm, smack in the middle, the afternoon. The prosecution makes much of this call IT clothing.

I can see why in jail. Second tape statement, granted, is the one where detectives are showing him the call records. Detective, a gilli is asking j but all those afternoon calls on the log between three and four o'clock, again, jay says this is when they were driving all around forest park and events, an avenue looking for weed.

Did anybody else? yeah. And I can't remember where that he received to call, a place to call, but I remember he's just talking to a girl.

I can't remember her name. He put me on the phone with her, agree, minutes that allow to, where did he live? Silver spring? You were, call her ning.

No, I don't. You have any idea why adnan we call this individual and solar spring after he had just no struggled his girlfriend, I don't. and. Have no idea why you call any conversation didn't to change anything that he just done.

The cops went talk to isha, who was a high school student, and he told them, yeah, there was a time when I spoke to a none on his cell and he put his friend jay on the phone. You should testified at both trials for a smoking gun. She's very cute, like a chip monk.

Good.

good afternoon to you to sir.

Do you know the defended?

Yes, I do.

This is from trial number one.

Um it's little hard to recall but I remember him telling me that jane invited him over to a video start that he worked at and he basically was non walked in with the ell phone and he said, like he told me to speak with jay and I was like, okay, because they wanted to say hi so I said hi to j and that's all I can really recall.

What time did did that occur? R.

I would think towards the evening, but I can't be exactly so the .

prosecutor, Kevin york, asked her if this call, the three thirty two call on the log, could IT be that same call, or had none put jay on the phone.

And he says that could be. But i'm not sure .

jay did work at a porn video store. He worked mostly nights there. So that makes sense. This call would have happened towards the evening.

What doesn't make sense if nisha saying this call happened at the video store is that they didn't have that job yet on january fifth, as far as I can tell from jazan testimony and from the notes of a private investigator for the defense who interviewed the video store manager j didn't start working there until the very end of january. So listen to what happens at the second trial. I don't have the tape, but I have a transcript.

York asks nisha. Now, did they ever come a time when the defender called you in, put a person he identified as jay on the line? yes.

He says, please tell the ladies and gentlemen of the jury what that call consisted of. Niche, a starts to answer. Basically, jay had asked him to come to an adult video store that he worked at.

But then york interrupt, sir, he says, no, don't tell us the content of the call. Now I find to guess that the prosecutor is trying to get her to not mention the video store because IT contradicts their story. So nicht says, okay, he just asked me, how is doing Better than he goes on? SHE doesn't mention the video start to europe again.

So i'm not at all convinced this call, the three thirty two call on the thirteen th that this was the call when a non put jay on the phone with nisha. But still the nan is supposedly at school during this time and jays not taking initial for two minutes and twenty two seconds. Then who the hell is calling isha? This is what a non, can't explain.

I asked him about at many times. He says nichols number was entered into his phone on speedwell. You can see he calls her a lot on the cell.

In fact, he is the very first number he dies when the phone is activated on the twelve. Anna says he thinks what must have happened is some combination of a buddle and an answering machine. This is from one of very.

very first phone calls. The action to that is what the reason you push the number maybe didn't know was on and because because when the end machine fixed up a call, but if SHE but he says .

SHE testifies that her phone does not have an answering machine or voice smell on IT. So who is picking up that call in talking for two and a half minutes or whatever? IT was two minutes in twenty two seconds or something.

Sure for .

sure .

I remember. Hold on, call that. Let me.

let me look.

Let me look .

like I was right. Here's from the first trial. Gash, does your homework one have .

an answering machine? Have an answer?

Ine, not the stone number? no.

And I could really explain, but I can save sure as some thousand percent sure that the only time I ever put you on the phone with her would have been at the video. So and I absolutely was not in car with him at this time. So there was another way to so activate.

So there was A, I can explain the billing of IT, but I can be sure out of the day I was not in in a quidd in my day time, what did I have to? 我还在 查， 现在 我在 school。 对。

Over the past year, i've swift the rubik cube of this case so many different ways. I've arranged and rearranged IT to come up with alternate versions of how they might have actually gone. And I can get pretty far in certain hypothetical directions.

Maybe every time j says a non's name in his story, maybe he's really talking about someone else, a person we don't know about, who jays afraid of her, he's trying to protect. I mean, jays got the car. Jazz got the phone.

All these calls are to his friends. And then I remember the niche ka in the whole thing crumbles no way around IT. The usha call is a big fat problem for a non.

Anon says his biggest fear is not being believed when he's sure about something. He has a tendency to over explain to innate you with facts and information, and then CoOperation for the facts and information. He doesn't like this tendency in himself, but he says he can't .

help that anyone who knows we will say that article overboard to point when people will be like I we believe you IT could be about anything that could be about where the rain yesterday because in my mind is like IT just reason something. It's like, I guess, like a personality court born of all this. I mean, I really, I don't like talk about things unless I can prove no matter how Silvia IT is.

he does IT with anything. He's a cook at the prison. And he said he got into a discussion with some guys recently about barbecue sauce.

And i'm saying, if you don't have massas or Brown sugar, you can substitute pancakes, syrup. And the guys are like now away. And so at breakfast, had not made a little batch of barbecue sauce using pancakes. Erp, nobody needs barbecue sauce at breakfast time at the maximum security prison in canberra in maryland. But he did in anyway .

all these things that look bad for IT.

None, everything that raised my suspicion, even stupid things. I've run every single one of them by him. I've got this thing in my head that i'll catch him in a lie, maybe just a tiny, meaningless lie and that's going to be his tale and he'll be caught and none is smart and clever. He knows that's what's going on. We talk. And so every time I call he's a little on guard is not sure what's coming at him because what if I ask him something he can't prove and then I don't believe him that notion that people out there in the world, people who went to school with who knew him, don't believe him, that they could imagine he's capable of killing hey, anne spent fifteen years thinking about that and then trying not to think about .

that and kind like in my mind, and like, man, what was IT about me? Now, you know what what would be about me that the person would think that if the different things that video takes me down IT, or if there was like you, you know, hey, fought back all the stuff of me, like D N A. Exactly like that.

Yeah I said like someone saw me living with him that day like three people saw me living with her like you said ah me going here like like but I mean it's like it's just just on the strength of may be arrested. I do like sleep about that. Like what the happy is that about me? You know, I mean that people, not just random people, I mean that people who knew me intimately, knew hay to mates, says on the east, you know, to say, just, just, and that you really like devastating. That is really, really like, you know, just really like this strike me to my course. And like.

what is IT about me that would allow someone to even entertain the possibility that I could do this.

Is that the thing? I mean, what you really think about this, say, here to five ball, and this happened, that place and plan, I keep my true intentions hidden. I mean, just real deal call, like, hit their text.

Stop, you know, mean this real like, cool, cool. Like in human side stuff like, and you know, I mean, like, I obviously, and I would have, you know, a great person think I did. I mean, maybe who know, maybe happened to someone else, I would have believed that I actually would have assumed that while the police got the right guy, they got for the right way. They didn't just get them because you know he was export. I am maybe was I.

but you know what I know? It's like the people who have told me that they think either they they sort of after a long time came to the conclusion that you were guilty or the are kind of like, I don't know, maybe i've never really at like they all at some point in the conversation almost everybody has said, well, the other non I knew didn't do IT like the guy I knew couldn't .

have done IT but maybe .

so no ahead no, no, no.

You have to revenue know what that means. So so what .

they're saying is maybe there was another guy in there that I just never. New you know like everybody has a deep dark, you know like .

maybe not everyone has the ability to do something cool and hair is like that. This isn't like you know yet as a bank teller for you know yet as the wait order wrong with something like that because it's not like say, the climate passion. S X 是 八 的。 Help me to my core and I get used to that. I mean, IT is I don't care now know.

But so you don't believe you're not someone who believes that like everyone put in in in like anyone could kill depending on the circumstances, like if they were in .

is if your life was threatening to, you know, I say like that he was if if is me or him you know I mean or if like if my kids are in danger, I don't know I that anyone or even majority of people you know could could stop to, you know, saying, doing something like this. But that's not what what did he ever do to me that would cause me to feel so angry.

But but anyone. No, no, no.

I did sorry too. No, I I do care about that. I thought I didn't care about this too much. Now we have probably do.

How could you not? How could .

you not care about IT? That doesn't really matter what people think. 你 俩 在那边 着呢， 还是 在。

I see many problems with the state's case, but then I see many problems with the non story, too. And so I started to doubt him. Then I talk to him and talk to him and talk to him. And I start to debt my doubts and then I wear that i'm a sucker.

Then I know no, that's the cycle once, about six months after we'd begun our phone calls and not asked me a little nervously, what's you're interest in this case? really? Why are you doing this? And so I explained all the interesting stuff I read and the people I to baba blah.

But I also told them that really what hook me most is him. Just trying to figure out who is this person who says he didn't kill this girl, but is serving a life sentence for killing this girl? My interest in and honestly has been you like you're really nice guy.

I like talking to you. You know then it's kind of like this question, evel, what does that mean? You know?

Yeah, oh, I mean, you don't really know me though, tony. You know, maybe you do, maybe may. You know, I don't.

We only talk on the phone. I understand what you mean that. I mean, weird here. You say that because I really, really know you. But .

wait, are you saying you don't think that I know you at all?

I mean, you you say that i'm a great person. I mean, like a nice person, you know I don't I mean, I don't know that I only thought you on the phone investig back.

We had this conversation in july. By then, we've looked at least thirty hours on the phone. I've talked to a none way more than i've talked to a lot of people.

I think I know people. I consider friends. So I was confused by this. This is the closest thing to hostile and non has ever gotten with me. The next day I came back to him about IT and so I was a little bit like taken a back and I still like, I feel a little taken to back at like, what do you think I don't know about you?

I feel like I want shoot myself every if I hear someone else say, I don't think you did IT because you're a nice guy and not so I just got, you know, you wouldn't that but I hear people say that to me over the years that just drives me crazy.

I would love someone to hear I would love here somebody say, I don't think that you need IT because I look at the case and he looks kind of slimpsy I would ever someone say, but I think you're jerk, your selfish, you know, you're crazy. S, O, B, you may, you would just stay in if rest your life except that I looked at your case and IT look, you know, like a little off. You like something that right?

I understand this. Being a nice guy doesn't count as scoped ory evidence. And if i'm going to spend a year figuring out that he's a nice guy, I might as well pissed off. Point taken, maybe we need some experts on this job next time on cereal.

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