Serial S01 - Ep. 9: To Be Suspected
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previously on cereal.

Why would you admit to do, and something that drastic if you hadn't done IT.

the mechanics, the documentation, the steps that they took, they look good.

Why would you not get up there and defend yourself?

It's your face to face. He's right there. He's a person. And so, you know, IT tends believable. This is a global chAllenge we pay call from not say.

and in meta for .

maryland .

correctional .

facility.

From this american life in W B E Y, chicago, its cereal, one story told week by week. I'm Sarah ic. Before we get to today's episode, where i'm gonna let a non talk for a while, I want to run, buy you some new information.

I've learned in the past week three things i've learned. First, remember Laura, the former Laura australia and oval, the one who asked, well then, who the fuck did IT in the last episode? SHE was friends with steph anie and was jane with a non?

I was talking to Laura on the phone the other day, and he mentioned something about best buy. And so I asked her if I could start tapping. Tell me, tell me again what you just told me.

There's no, there is no any songs at best buy. There were never any phones around the best buy.

No payphone, no, no phone.

But no, no, that's like black. There's no phones there.

The payphone in question is important because jay tells the detectives that had not called him on january thirteen, one thousand ninety nine and untold jay he'd killed. Hey, could come and get me. I'm at best buy. When jay gets there, he says he sees at non standing by the phone booth wearing red gloves, he draws a map for the cops showing the location of the phone booth. And if you're facing the front doors of the store, his drawing shows the booth on the left outside on the sidewalk.

We did a lot of research on this where IT was, whether IT was and we could not account for this phone both or is said that because IT never was, SHE said the only conceivable place for a phone at the best buy would have been inside in the foe part of the store. But there was no phone. There are either Laura says he knows this because she's to go to that best buy a lot from the time IT open through ninety eight into ninety nine with her family and without her family.

And I used you still some there all the time was pretty aware, like what was around .

you're saying you would shop of cds yeah sorry but is .

don't have .

to see this.

So you're saying you would have noticed a thing like that because you were kind .

of yeah because you're attention like you go in and like you can have more aware of your surroundings and just barking into the store. You know at the time I remember looking up in there, any eyes in the skies and cameras, you know and you know there's a whole method, but you're very you're very aware of like entering and who was like who was there the entrance and when you're leaving, you know because you you are can steal in and then there's no phones there.

Laura, I hypothesized why if there really wasn't a phone booth, how could the cops of mister detail like that when they have ve noted IT Laura h, that maybe IT wasn't a big deal to them.

It's such a small il.

It's not a small detail. It's not a small detail. No, it's not because he they're saying that's where the two thirty six call comes from. Is that payphone at .

best by yeah I don't know .

why they want to check IT, but there's no payphone their end. You sure i'm positive.

So that thing, one thing too, I learned IT also relates to this two thirty six call. I talk to a woman, name's summer. He went to woodlawn. She's been listening the podcast, and SHE emailed me because when he heard this one part, SHE said, he started shaking her head. SHE said, if the state is saying hay was dead by two thirty six.

it's impossible. It's it's impossible. I mean, it's like, I I mean, it's it's just impossible. Is is not there is no way that he was at best by two thirty six summer .

was friends with him, not close friends, but they had a class together, and they joked around and talked. Someone had a boyfriend who did sports at with lawn, and he wanted an excuse to stay after school tools SHE could hanging around with them. Hey, told her there was an opening for another manager of the boy's restroom team.

He was already doing that, so summer joined her the day he disappeared. The restroom team had a match at randal's town high school. Summer remembers talking a hey after school in the gym.

Y there, the restore ers were milling around. Summer was preparing the equipment they had to loaded into the bus. And hey came to say, i'm not getting on the bus to the match, but i'll see you there. And that wasn't welcome news to summer. SHE needed hey by her side at the match because hey was more experienced at scoring, which can be tricking in restless if .

you're knew at IT, you know was given her hell because i'm telling her like I don't know what i'm doing you know I needed her because know we had to take point then things like dad and she's like, no, no, no, I just have to go and, you know, pick my little cousin up somebody .

says IT wasn't a quick conversation either.

You know, we used to see each other because he really was hilarious, but we would tease each other and, you know, go back. And for them, we were at least talking for at least ten minutes.

You you're sure that this is the .

day because it's the day .

he didn't sure I am very positive. You not looked for her the whole time at the a way game, you know, was really peace because I thought this SHE, you know, stood me up.

Hay told summer SHE would make her own way to rental s town hai for the match. No one but me probably remembers this now, but I knows but her hendricks, who worked at the school, said hey had told her he was playing to catch the real's town bus. However, I was initially told the cops the opposite.

So I trust summers s memory more and summer is clear. Hay told her he was going to drive herself there. Summer said this conversation about hey not getting on the bus happened after the last bell and also after the regular school buses had cleared the loop in front of the school. SHE said, probably at around two thirty to forty five, somebody says he has no dog in this fight. She's got no opinions on a non's guilt or innocence SHE just knows what .

he knows all of the things that i'm you know unclear about or kind of shake you about or I am clear on that two thirty six would not have been possible for her to even have met him wherever because I know for fact he was probably with me during that time or at the school during that time.

Some are never talked to the detectives. There's no mention of her in their notes, but she's not the only person who said they saw hey after school that day, Becky saw right after school, debby Warren said he talked to hate to the police note says he saw her at approximately twenty three P. M.

Inside the school near the gym, which would match summer's memory so Laura says no phone with at best by summer says no way know how hay was at best by at two thirty six. Combine that, if you want, with old information from asia machine, who says he saw IT none, around two thirty to forty five at the woodland land public library. Can we all agree that whatever happened to hey probably didn't involve a two thirty six P.

M. Call from that phone booth saying, coming, get me, i'm at best bye I don't know about you, but i'm done considering that is true this two thirty six thing, if you want to speculate with me here for a second, if we suspect there wasn't a phone booth at best buy, that means the crime maybe didn't happen there. Jay friend Chris said he heard the crime happened in the parking lot of the woodland land public library.

But I got to say, if you think the best buy is too public a place to commit a murder, you should see the library after school swarming with kids. And if the she's dead coming, get me call wasn't at two thirty six. Maybe it's the next incoming call on the log.

The three fifteen call. After all, no one actually testified to the two thirty six timing at trial. This comes from the prosecutors narrative alone. The problem is, if IT is the three fifteen call, that really messes with jays testimony about where they were and what they were doing that afternoon.

Now, third piece of new information, it's about what happened that not her real named Kathy's apartment. That evening of january thirteenth, Cathy remembered a non getting a call and reacting an agitated way, saying things like, what am I gonna do? What am I say? They are going to come talk to me.

What am I pursed to say? Cathy testified a trial about this call. How had done was acting panic. I think it's possible that call Cathy overheard was not from a mystery third man or coconina ira, or but from wait for IT haze good friend asia pitmen .

to review fersa .

k haze brother called the upset afternoon officer Scott adcock arrives from the bottom county pd. His initial report records the time as five twelve P M ad cup calls aisha and had none asking if they've en hi, here's what's new. I got an email recently from another friend in that WLAN magnet group, Crystal, saying sh'd talk to I issue that evening of the quote.

IT was around six P. M. That night that I talked to iisi and SHE was calling around to see if anyone had heard from her and quote her meaning, hey.

So I checked with I asia and he does remember speaking to a non. Here's what he wrote to me, quote, I do remember speaking with a non that evening, but I thought he called me. From what I recall, IT was a super short conversation, and he was annoyed that I told the police to check in with him.

I thought I spoke to him after the police called him, and SHE said it's possible her memory of who called whom could be mistaken. Maybe SHE did call. There's definitely no outgoing call to iii a on a non sell that day.

And maybe IT was before he spoke to the cops, not after SHE can't be sure, but that's what he remembers. Again, you ve heard this information before, but i'm gna review IT. Now there are three calls on the colleague around this time that all paying towers near Cathy apartment six, seven, six or nine and six twenty four.

The first two calls are for a little less than a minute. The third call is the longest, four minutes, fifteen seconds. That was likely officer adcock.

So maybe I should call IT non at six or nine says, I just talk to the police and they're onna, get in touch with you too. Sha says that none was annoyed. Maybe that's what Cathy interpreted as panic.

I think we can all stipulate that. A none was super stoned. He told me he had weed in the car and was worried the cops are gone to find IT if they came to talk to him. So imagine for a second that I known is talking to iasi and said something like what I got, you know, what am I supposed to say? Obviously, I can't say for sure this is what happened, but if that strange call Catherine members was actually I asia, well then for me, that rearranges all the pixel in Kathy's memory from suspicious to inactive us. If it's true.

okay. Now that we're caught up, let's go back to our regularly scheduled program. This is from a non's second trial.

Are you prepared to make your action, this man, and is your election to testify or to remain silent? To remain silent? Thank you. You have any questions about making me 的话。

that's IT none not testifying. He told me he wanted to, but his attorney advice against IT not in common. It's a huge rip to open your line up to cross examination and impeach men. So there he was mute through two trials, about five weeks total, which is really hard for anyone that was very.

and that, I would say, proud of the most stressed thing in my life. You know, this guy was clear, says they go to a trial, but more so city there for so low, for so many days in a week. No one, if this jury said they're looking at me and ultimately they're going to be the ones to make the decision, you know, I ve got to sit up straight.

I mean, IT looks like A A trial within the trial in the fence was really trouble right there. And they were sometimes where I was just so delegable what was being and said, I used to just look down. I would just literally just be like scribing on a few paper, like acting like I was taking notes.

I I didn't know what else to do, and I would go on off for so long. This is so frustrated because you want to keep an erupting, say, hold, but not true. That's not the reason why I got a phone.

I didn't make their phone call is meet of my parents are going to somewhere where i'm going to the cause that doesn't an, you know, uh, is of my desire to make murder something. But you never get a chance to speak. You never get a chance. Just most frustrated thing in the world.

I wana let a non talk. Now, not so much about what happened the day of the crime. I feel like we've been over that already, but just about what I was like to be him throughout this case, what it's like now to be locked up for so long on the night of february tenth, nineteen ninety ninety nine, I uh, had broken the terrible news to Crystal about his body being found.

Crystal then called a non who ran over to ashes. She'll very close to a non. And then Christina join them there. Stephanie came over to, they all SAT there at a issues kitchen table crying.

I was just to complete that is that was just the complete shock there. No, waited. Know that.

I am pretty sure they did never imagine that, you know that, you know, he would turn up, you know, that murder and that body would be found. So no, I never ever consider that i'm pretty. They don't even think something bad happens.

So we just kind of thought you would. So should some explanation, you know, hey, was somewhere, you know, with a fathering california or with a new boy, who knows? So no.

lots of people told the cops and also told me that are not appeared to be in denial when they all first heard what had happened, that he said things like, it's not her. They've got the wrong person. All asian women look alike. When anna got arrested, Christian wrote down a chrono gy of everything SHE remembered from the previous six weeks. Here's what you read about that night at the issues.

We went inside, and adnan was sitting at the kitchen table crying. After all, he said that there had to be a mistake and that hey was still alive because her name was written in the issues, a gender book. He wanted to call the detective or shape. But when he called the precent, he wasn't there at nam, was upset. So I took the phone and talk to the woman, explained that we just wanted to get some information, and he said we would have to wait and call homicide .

in the morning he aden called detective .

show the night that we found out that he had been murdered.

That's right, a non called the belt, more county police department to talk to detectives share to tell him theyd misi dentists. Ed, this girl, whoever he was, that tidd is always stayed with me. Is that something a distorted teenager would do? Or is that something a killer would do?

And here the next day went to school when he was not definitely, you know, IT was, I just, everyone have coming up to me, hugged me. You know, if I was just so much, so many people, like, are you OK, oh, that what happened? I was not anything was just too much.

So many people back then and now have talked about a non's reaction to his death, that he was blank, or cried in heaving waves, or not at all, or that he seemed Normal, or that he hit in the dark room in photography class, or started a picture of human haye psychology class. One teacher said he was tencent unresponsive when he gave him a hug that a tikki had became more pronounced. Another said he was so sad he was barely functioning.

The school nurse testified a non's first trial that he thought he faked a catania state. SHE wasn't allowed to testify in the second trial. None of announce friends saw anything strange in his behavior.

Besides, they said IT was a strange time for everyone who was terrifying and sad. They were also Young. How are you supposed to react?

Interestingly, jim train em, the former homicide detective we hire, to review the investigation immediately, disregard ded every single statement about announce reaction in terms of evaluating someone's guilty, said stuff like that is worthless. He advised me to do the same, just toss IT all out, he said, because it's subjective, it's hindside. And also people tend to bend their memories to what they think people wanted hear.

Adnan helped plan a memorial for hay at school. They planned to tree for her. Still, they are in front of the school with a black.

This time for none is a blur. R he says giant events kept coming one after the other. He didn't have time to wrestle them into .

comprehension. IT of is a true to keep doing everything Normally, you know, says like, like you can stop. IT was just so IT was just so many emotions, like wondering what how to heck something like this happens for, and then uses a few weeks. Then I was arrested.

The cups came to announce house to speak to him on february twenty six, ninety, ninety nine, two days before they arrest them. They hadn't interviewed genre j yet. There is a report in their files about that meeting, which oddly has dated september fourteenth, almost seven months after the fact. I don't know why detectives written a guillory come to announce house and asked about hay quote when asked if sid had a relationship with haman lee, sid replied in a soft voice, yes, however, he didn't want his father to know.

They fat there. They fat that both of them fat of the couch. The father said back to each other. They ask me a few questions, and that's actually what I was worried about, was upset to him that if you were to say, what is the thing I was worried about the most IT would be upsetting him. There was no problem in mind that, you know, I was like, I worried about.

You may as well say, you know, the leak in the living room, but there is an earthquake coming in the next two minutes. But I worried about my father be an upset about all this, and my mother is supposed to. I had no idea what, whatever that that this murder charge is going to become.

even even after that conversation with where your dad was there, you didn't think like a, oh.

not at all, not. But I, they were asking questions about, but not. They actually thought that I kill him. I never know. One time felt that they actually believe that I killed him. I think any adult t anyone who would have like a sense of understanding could see the predicament that I was in IT. Now the police could arrest you because you're the x boyfriend like if he was me talking to seventeen year old, not I was a here not you're idiot. You do know they going to come after you know unless they find who did IT because you're the most recent x boyfriend so I can believe you understand why you would ask me that is but to be that person to have absolutely no ill will towards, say, how anyone could um much lesser could som that has something to do with IT.

Very early in the morning on february twenty eight, after they've spoken to j after jay has shown them where his car was parked off eduard road, the detectives come into announce bedroom and wake him up. Time to put some clothes on, its time to go, he dresses, sees his mother is watching his older brother, his little brother, use of his crying when they drive them down into the city to an interrogation room in homicide in hand, cut him what he describes as a little hook in the wall.

The one detective, uh, that was the gilla very he one thing that he stated was, you know, hey, no, I don't can know what you did, but I have an next wife or, you know, I just went through divorce or something. I can understand how you can get mad.

This, by the way, is what jim trade m calls offering a theme. You give the suspect and explanation when that minimize the crime. As a .

starting point, the gillier would be a more so aggressive with ly OK. And rich was kind of more so like at some point, I think you said, man, you know, that will help out a lot if you just tell us what you did say, well, you know is there matic he would you going to stop about to doing anything for? He didn't mention that the. Car, at some point you did mention some red loves, you know, we're going to find those red gloves or something.

announced the detectives left the room for a while.

then came back. And when they came back, they had to the metal crime stopper IT was a picture like a reward paper as the picture of hey. And at some point they said they will will leave you alone with this.

You know, you just look at hey or you just look at this. So we're looking at, you know, but i'm still thinking, like, you know, this is just kind of like, you know like a scare tactic, scare me to see. Well, IT is something that I know, what am I going to say but still thinking that, you know, once this is over, i'm gona leave and they both came in again. And this one, if they slit the paper to me, and I slit on top of the measure, crime stop for 过程 and elsewhere， says, you know, they had to seal a automate city in the sublet and corner. And he said, charge dot v or a statement of charges is said and not say did will for me premeditate us for deliberate uh murder or kill ham and lee on such as such day and punished by, you know first in the punished by the so says that family you know and um so that's when I said, you know you be in just tell you is murder at this .

point at not asked for a lawyer he says he was inking of mallock he says the detectives stopped questioning him they have got ready to leave the room again, keep in mind and none with seventeen years .

old will was going to happen now. You know you know and not much I think like you know you know about and I said to him, I said of, I don't remember either I thought that so I said IT that then what's in my mind is like you have got to finish this. I saw got a finished report, report day.

He had an annotation bibliography doing his english class. He said, bill reds tried to make a non situation plan to him. And did you get that you don't think you didn't think he meant you. You're never going home.

you know? yes. I mean, if it's still it's possible for you, anyone else? We added the future to understand to be a seventeen year old kid in this situation, no experience with with the system, no experience.

And this stuff is very difficult to believe in the early stages that this is actually what's happened. This must be just some huge mistake. No, they just, you know, there was no way, there was no way in my mind that is going to continue you.

Often when a none tels stories about this time, his euro zen, on some small moment when someone was kind to him.

there was someone in playing calls. He stuck his head in the door and he said, he man, just have faith to me. I came across as like like A I don't know, like encouragement. He was the thing you like to talk me and it's like to me I came ross as a being something like encourage or some advise ment.

that's IT the whole story. But he's mentioned this guide my multiple times also the White lady who is driving the cruise er that took him downtown SHE was polite. There was a sherif deputy who looked like just hersh who slipped a Candy bar the eighth grade teacher whose named he can't remember who wrote him that nicest I can imagine how you'd seize these kindnesses and that theyd netsek into your brain forever.

Um now this is I obviously need to hold on to, but this is junior prime pictures last ring.

dana, I went to Christy's house. Christina was good friends with han and non SHE was Christmas yers back then SHE dug out a trove of photos and your books, stuff and letters Christine non wrote to each other during his first year in jail. Through his trial, SHE visited him frequently when he was in prison.

Injustice maryland, much closer than where he is now in cumberland, Christian is clearly organized and thoughts. He's death was the defining event of her youth in messed with her as did did not arrest in conviction. She's not in the robby a camp of one hundred percent. There's no way in the world had none did this. She's more if he did IT than I don't understand human beings because the guy I knew, sara.

so if just he's a Normal kind person you know like these aren't letters from somebody that will lish is or just trying to sway you to believe him. It's somebody that genuinely and I and cares about people trying to make the best of a bad situation.

Here's the guy he knew, june second, one thousand ninety nine. Did you get that really expensive prom trust you wanted? And who do you go with if you don't mind me asking? Smiling face, he asks how things are going with andy.

They'd been having problems. He tells her stories about jail june eighth. Quote, you should send me some pictures.

We're allowed to get them. Man, some guys in here gets some really dirty pictures. I mean, dirty. Let me put IT you like this.

I've seen more than i'd wanted to have a lot of people's wives or girlfriends to last a lifetime. And while most guys are really protective of their pictures, someone's always pulling me aside to show me their latest flick. It's really kind of disgusting. He mentioned he has gotten letters from other kids from school.

Laura jian, Justin, asia, iran, that's ali says about asia, by the way, he doesn't seem to attach any importance to her letters or note that she's a potential alii maybe because he doesn't know the state's timeline for the murder yet a none was in with the juvenile population when he was first arrested in february. In may, he turned eighteen and then moved over to be with the adults. I assume that would be awful in myriad d ways.

But annon writes this to crysta quote, it's weird. When I first came here, I didn't know what the heck was going on. Let me tell you, IT was pretty bad, but I don't mean physically, like no one was trying to beat me up or anything.

People didn't know what to think of me. I mean, first of all, everyone in here is black and always threatened to beat the hell out of someone else. And then you have me light skin and quiet.

I didn't say much to anyone. No one said much to me. Four months later, I can be anywhere in. The entire jail is huge. And someone will call, say, red people say, what's up to me, ask how things are, and I don't even know them.

The strange thing is so many people come to me saying, if anyone bothers you, let me know that there's no one left to bother me. Some of IT is due to the fact that i'm a muslim, and a lot is due to my personality. You know, i've been blessed and that I can make friends almost anywhere I go. Now I can really say anywhere. He tells her he's gotten elected to inmate council.

You can see how IT none .

initially thinks this is all temporary, will be up by graduation, maybe by summer, maybe by whenever IT face a little more, the closer gets to trial. Crystal would testify for the state at trial. He is the one who talked about hearing him ask k for a ride that afternoon, which adnan said he didn't do, but he doesn't hold IT against her.

He's so sweet to Christian. These letters asked about the dental work he got done, how our little sisters doing, her mother's doing, whether her car got fixed. He talks about his feelings. They discuss religion and god, their problems.

Christian parents were divorcing their intimate friends who trust each other, the most striking letters to me, where the ones he wrote to her immediately before and after his sentencing, he didn't end up facing the death penalty. By the way, the first one, he writes that while he's in what's called the bullpen waiting to be sentenced, it's gotta cut out from a magazine and staple to IT of an asian Young woman smiling. What's this Crystal .

that's actually not? Hey, that looks like clever. So he found this in a magazine instead, that IT this girl looked like he found this in a magazine and IT locked so much like, hey, does IT look .

like her to you?

Yes.

yes.

So, you know what's really weird? I was looking through this jet magazine. In case you didn't know, IT features african american issues, smiling face unquote. He tells Crystal that he had been appearing in his dreams.

The dreams like this have a certain significance in a slam, but that anyway, he's looking through this jet magazine and he does a double take because the girl looks so much like, hey, even her watch looks like he is. Watch, go take a look at IT and tell me what you think. I hope i'm not going crazy and quote, I found this perplexing.

He seems relaxed in the letter. This is a kid who is about to be sentence to life in prison. He knows that's what's about to happen.

It's the Mandatory sentence for his conviction. And that conviction, of course, was for killing. Hey, Christ's good friend. And in this pregnant life changing moment, he's writing a letter to Crystal about whether a photo he saw while flipping through a magazine looks like, hey, is IT too nanchang or something is IT creepy, and not explain several things about this. First, he wasn't especially nervous right then that was about to change.

But at that point, he says he was thinking of his sentencing as a procedure he needed to get through so he could immediately start the appeals process. So in a way, IT was a step toward the thing he wanted. Second, it's not like they transport you from your cell right to the courtroom door and you're just outside straightening your tie before your big moment. Kind of the opposite. There's an enormous question of other boredom and exhaustion built in so you do other things, read right letters, whatever you can .

IT would be hard to understand. Like you spend hours sitting in bull pants weight, you know. So it's like like you just if if you get up at three o'clock in the morning, then you like go downs irs and like the basement of the jail, you just sit in a band. It's basically like this, a square room with a concrete.

It's like a concrete bench building into the wall that goes around and it's probably anywhere from like fifty two, one hundred people everyones you sit in there and you might sit there till like that for four hours and you go to the court and you look like another four five hours until you go to court like maybe ten or eleven o'clock in the morning. So after like after doing this for so long, it's just like it's just like a numbs the mind. So I mean, I know people who have actually took complete deals just do not have to go to court anymore, really know. I mean like no. I mean honestly, like not even.

The third thing is that Christina was the only person he was a regular touch with who knew he and Crystal didn't think that a non a killer .

you know so I can talk to about, hey, it's not going to be like, you know uh like I mean, he just you know SHE except me an accurate por about anything, a writer about anything and uh so a lot of times that's what IT would be.

Eight days later, post sentencing, he writes Christa, another letter, and he's so changed. By this time he'd fired cristini guitarists over the asia letters, and he's being represented by a public defenders. He doesn't really know.

A man tells the guy he wants to tell the court he did not kill hey, and that is gonna ue to fight this to the end. That's what he says in his letter to Crystal and the guy says, no, no, no terrible idea. Don't say you're innocent.

It'll anger the judge, a nan argues with them in, according to a non. The lawyer says, well, you can do IT if you want, but you're just gonna fuck yourself over. So now IT none is worried.

And then another thing he had anticipated that his mother was going to speak sh'd been to the trial every day, I think sometimes like limbs ter in the videos, keeping perfectly still, or doubled over or holding on to someone. There's more than one bench conference during the trial in which they talk about her mother's crying being a possible distraction to the jury. Her pain throughout must have been object on this day through a translator, hase mother speaks, SHE tells the court about her daughter.

SHE tells the court about her korean proverb that says, when parents died, they're buried in the ground, but when a child dies, you bury the child in your heart. Quote, when I die, when I die, my daughter will die with me as long as I live. My daughter is buried in my heart.

I don't know where to hear her voice. I don't know where to touch her hand. I would like to forgive a nancie, but as of now, I just don't know how to do that, and I just cannot do that right now.

For many, many months, we tried to contact his family to tell them we were doing the story, and in hopes they might won, to talk to us about, hey, in my twenty plus years of reporting, i've never tried as hard to find anyone. Letters in english and in korean phone calls, social media, friends of friends of friends, two private detectives, korean speaking researchers, people knocking on doors in three different states, calls to south korea. We never heard back from them.

I learned a few days ago that they know what we're doing. My best guess is they want no part of IT, which I respect about. Hey, I can tell you only what i've heard from non family members that he was cheerful and light and funny, that you love the movie titanic, that SHE sometimes put nail polish on, just SHE could pick IT off.

SHE wasn't insecure, seemingly ever. Spike was her favorite soda, the deal's cowboys, her favourite team, not because he cared about football, but because he liked the colors, blue and silver, that he could charm you without trying that he was a good friend or her friends. SHE took in their problems and their pain and tried to help them if they could.

At the sentencing, listening to his mother, that was the first time I none understood how people on hair side of the courtroom saw him. He'd never felt hated before. In his june fourteenth, two thousand letter to Crystal, he writes, quote, on the one hand, I feel her pain because I cared about, hey, and how sad he is.

But on the other, i'm thinking, please believe me, I didn't kill your daughter. SHE was sitting right next to me, and I was really sad, but I couldn't help thinking that my mom is going through the exact same thing. She's gona lose her son forever.

Afterwards I was thinking, my god, no one believes in me. Crystal, I could never explain how that felt. Announce attorney that addresses the court, quote urania.

I would ask that this honourable court, if you would consider this case more a crime of passion than a intent to kill unquote from a nonce letter quote. That's all I heard him saying. And I turned and just stared at him, wanting to hit him with a chair or something. I mean, this jerk is gna get up and give away the only thing I have my innocence and quote, when its a nce turned to speak, he suddenly realizes he has no idea what to say he'd had his plan but now quote, on the other hand, i'm thinking about what the lawyer said about the judge getting upset on the third hand, i'm thinking in man, I should just apologize for everything even though I didn't kill hey, stupid me I end up doing a little of each and quote, it's true when his moment comes, he maintains his innocence. He asks for the mercy of the court, and he says, quote, i'm just sorry for all the pain that this has caused everyone.

The judge wana heard disagreed with a none's attn y at sentencing. We know this because he said, quote, I disagree with you. Council, this wasn't a crime of passion. SHE said to a none you planned IT. Quote, you use that intellect.

You use that physical strength, you use that charismatic ability of yours that made you the president or the, what was at the king or the prince of your problem. You use that to manipulate people. And even today, I think you continue to manipulate even those that love you, as you did to the victim. You manipulated her to go with you to her death.

Once early on, I asked IT, none. If you're saying you're innocent, why on't you bitter and angry? Why do you sound so calm? And he said a lot of things then, and sense, because there's no one answer.

Part of IT, he says, is that he realizes how lucky he is compared to so many other guys inside his family visits. He calls them all the time. They send him money.

He's got people like rubber and sad pulling forum quote, I refused to be miserable. He said to me, being religious helps, which you hear all the time about people in prison, but I never thought about IT too much before. I got to know that none.

When he ended up in prison, he says he made a choice to be a Better muslim. Now he can say that for nearly half his life he's lived like he's supposed to. He knows it's a rationalization of a situation, but it's been the most helpful one. Finally, he says he's got a clear conscience because he didn't kill. Hey, though, once he did say to me, i'm here because of my own stupid actions, I ask him, money meant.

well, I that every day and I mean, who can I I mean, I never should let someone hold my car. I never should let someone hold my son. You know, I never should have been friends of people with people, you know, who I know, I know, I know.

Well, you could blame jay if you .

think he's lying. I mean, yeah, but I mean, him police the prosecutors. But I mean, I mean, sure what happened? We happened. I had nothing to do with this start. But at the end of day, I would take some very much, do you know?

I mean, you don't really know the things that my Younger brother went to? You know what my family go through, you know, the I V 呢， everyday I have been. 然后 那个 就是 那个 good morning。 You know, I mean, someone who we didn't do with this thing, you know that may.

I may day every day you know what I can. yeah.

A prosecutor I was talking to said, of course, a non can't ever admit to this crime. After all, his parents have been through the fear and the money and the anguish. How could he ever turn around and say to them, I did IT .

and none took issue with that father. And I know the thing that about us in the most is not necessarily need an imprison, but he says, and justice, you can accept, bad things happen when they, when they aren't, you know, aren't of IT, is that most other mother will probably sleep Better at night. I should be done this, and I told them the very prisons, because done there, they are still, we still going to take care.

We're still going to make you, you know, either sun, but at least we don't have they feel on any more than somewhere where he never deserved to me right now. He made because they don't necessarily worry about me being you become to see, see me that i'm fine, you know, I mean, fine, unhealthy, you know, whenever to come with me, good spirit and everything like that. So for the Price, you to say that the reason why I can, because I can look these people in the face that know the the constitution that is IT, would actually be easier for them be in a person new and desert.

I can't say what would truly be easier for his family knowing their son had murdered someone or feeling as if he's been taken from them unjustly. But IT is true that a none has always been fine in prison. He's adaptable.

He pointed out to me that he'd never been independent anyway. First award of his parents than the award of the state. He spent the initial part of his sentence at a prison in jesup, about a thirty minute drive for his family. IT was a loser place in where is now at north branch, and comberton a maximum security prison. More than two is away from all to all .

the that have been have been like they're fairly like corrupt places. So they're not really strict in a sense where you know it's like go, you've got to do this at this time. You ve got to do this at that time, maybe corrupted in the right word. So maybe IT actually is in jesup especially .

people got away with all kinds of craziness. That person closed, now, announced, only had one infraction his entire time, which a guy, the d oc. Told me was impressive for anyone.

After I asked about his prison record, a non sent me a stack of copies. Twenty one different certificates and awards for completing this program are helping with that activity. In two thousand and five, he got, when called, the distinguished gentleman's award for your consistent display of character manor's m self control and ability to manage university.

Signed by the warden, announced one infraction was for having a cell phone, which he had for five years. Actually, he had a couple of different cell phones. I knew when he got, he couldn't figure out how to make IT work.

So I just so have my first one so I call thank you team mobile eating and she's like, what can you do the phone that I doesn't work, keep just take you to your team mobile store. I'm like like. Go to the team model store, right? Go adjust.

Bannon had a good job. He was a clerk in the champs office, which gave him access to a computer and to a printer and copyright. Being an entrepreneur thought he ran a couple of side businesses, printing stuff in making copies for people at north branch.

He's a cook. He told me the only jobs at north branch, or either kitchen job or custodial jobs. He's got a group of friends.

He's close with guys who came into the system the same time he did. They have a little breakfast club, which she's in charge of. Another guide has lunch membership.

has its privileges. Today I unless who was like carmyle ed apple in them and union, they were really good and sees some insight.

And then I made some, but in a french toast, also hot cereal with peaches and raisons for lunch, cheese stakes. The other fifteen hundred guys they cook for got the Normal menu, boiled eggs. Balloony a none lives in itself by himself.

He's got T. V. And if he's getting in fights or seeing horrible things, he's not telling me about IT.

All the stuff he tells me about is that worst P. G. thirteen. He told me I have a life. It's not the life I planned or imagined, but I have a life.

Despite the nickle, despite the leak on park salt, our evidence, despite jane knowing where his car was, I confessed to having reasonable doubt about whether IT none killed. Hey, i'm not talking about the courtroom kind. I'm talking about the Normal person kind.

Obviously, a trial isn't built to hold the stories at none or anyone tells about his life. So his lawyer, Christinia guitarists, had to figure out another way to encourage reasonable doubt. Why didn't IT work next time on cereal?

Series produced by Julie snyder, dana chia mei, Emily conn is our production and Operations manager irr glasses, our editorial advisor editorial help this week from ancyra ke and joe level help on all things financial from san fact checking by is administrative support from a lease bergeron. Our score is by mark phillips, who also mixed the episode. Our theme sonne is by nick thorbjorn, who also provided additional scoring.

Special thanks today to JoNathan gold, stein, paul, a cargo from the bolt, marson, he jotham Young ang black Morrison and bob versus our website, where you can listen to all our episodes and find photos, letters and other documents from the case and sign up for our weekly emails serial podcast dot work. Syria is a production of this american life and W B E Z. chicago.

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