Episode 403: How To Move Beyond Small Talk And Connect Deeply
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You're listening to the Sex and Psychology Podcast, the sex ed you never got in school and won't get anywhere else. I am your host, Dr. Justin Lee Miller. I am a social psychologist and research fellow at the Kinsey Institute and author of the book, Tell Me What You Want, The Science of Sexual Desire and How It Can Help You Improve Your Sex Life.

Imagine you're in a bar or club and you see someone attractive on the other side of the room. You want to go up and talk to them, but you're not sure what to say, let alone how to keep the conversation going once it's started. If this sounds like something that's happened to you before, you're definitely not alone. A lot of us struggle with connecting with strangers through conversation and find it to be anxiety-inducing, which is why we tend to stick to scripts, play it safe, and rarely venture beyond small talk. But it doesn't have to be this way.

In today's show, we're going to discuss tips for getting to know someone that you're romantically interested in in a way that's going to help you to connect more authentically and deeply. We'll discuss how to move beyond the surface level, explore several novel conversation starters, as well as talk about how to figure out how much of yourself to reveal without over-disclosing. We'll also discuss some tips on how to start conversations about sex with a new partner.

I am joined once again by Lindsay Jill Roth, an award-winning television and live events producer who has created and developed a wide variety of programming globally. She is also author of the new book, Romances and Practicalities, which is based on a set of 250 research-backed questions designed to help you identify red flags and non-negotiables, assess compatibility with a potential or current partner, initiate tricky conversations with race, and build a stronger, deeper relationship.

This is going to be another fascinating episode full of lots of practical tips and information. Stick around and we're going to jump in right after the break. Join leading researchers and experts for insightful presentations and discussions on the evolving landscape of sex and aging at the Kinsey Institute 2025 Specialty Intensive and Symposium this fall.

This event will take place on October 4th, 2025, with both online and in-person attendance options available. To learn more, visit kinseyinstitute.org. And to stay up to date on the latest events and educational opportunities, follow at Kinsey Institute on the socials.

Okay, Lindsay, let's talk about getting to know someone. Let's do it. So this is something that a lot of people struggle with. Now, when you meet someone new, there's the question of like, what do you say? What kinds of questions do you ask?

It can feel kind of stressful because, you know, we don't want to say the wrong thing. We don't want to put our foot in our mouth. We don't want to over-disclose and say too much too soon and scare someone off. We don't want to ask something that's too personal too quickly. So I think a lot of people try to play it safe and they just stick to the small talk because they don't want to kill the vibe. I'm sorry, but killing the vibe? Like, tell me what the vibe is when all you talk about is like,

Where you come from, what your job is, the restaurants you like to eat at, what you like to do on the weekends, like come on. Life is so much more exciting than talking about just that. Do you know what I mean? That's just so surface level.

Yeah. And I mean, boy, if I could fight a nickel for every time somebody asked me, what do you do for work? And, you know, you'd have that conversation. And that's not even just with romantic partners. It's also with friends and, you know, random strangers. It's like, what do you do for work? And I also find that that's an interesting, like culturally relative question. For sure. Or location based. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, in the US, always get asked that question by other people. But when I'm traveling, for example, in Europe, nobody asks you what your job is. It's just a very different set of norms and expectations. It is. It's very sort of-- your identity is so locked up in what you do for work that it's the first thing that you want to be identified with and talk about, which adds a level of bias that you can bring or someone else can bring to you.

Here's the thing, right? It's 2025 now, and I'm really trying to change the narrative about when people say like oversharing or talking too much is bad or you shouldn't talk about religion or politics, things like that. I actually think when you're with the right person, having authentic conversation is

it sort of trumps any of that kind of rigidity that we put on ourselves to sort of not seem too overzealous or too overeager. I actually think great conversation flows properly, but I also think people don't always know what to ask. And a part of this book is really to give people tools to ask interesting questions, but

Because also it's about listening to the answer, right? So a great example here is,

I think when you're on, you know, first date or first set of dates, ask this potential person about their thoughts on pets. Do they have a dog or cat growing up? Do they like animals? This is such a low barrier to entry question. No one's going to get their back up if you ask them about dogs or cats. I mean, if you're going for a walk or you're walking into a restaurant and someone walks by with a dog, it's a great segue. And what this does is

is if someone's open about it, it gives you the potential to hear about how they are as caretakers, how they grew up,

Their fears, maybe when someone says, oh, my God, I was bitten by a Dalmatian when I was at my friend Kristen's house when I was eight and I've been scared of them ever since. Great. Dig into that. Right. I mean, or, oh, I'm looking after my friend's pet snake right now. I would run after.

out of the restaurant. I'm so deathly afraid of snakes. But the point is, is that something like that is a harmless question to ask, but it could be so much more interesting than talking about someone's favorite restaurants or where they've traveled.

Yeah, and I think that really is the issue is that a lot of the times we just focus on very superficial things that don't really tell you much about a person. And, you know, that question of what do you do for work? Like it gets so boring and repetitive, you know, and that's the other thing is like when it comes to getting to know someone, if you're asking the same questions that everybody else is always asking, it doesn't really give you the opportunity to stand out. So if you can ask a question that's a little bit outside the box,

It doesn't have to be like wild and crazy, but even something along the lines of what you suggested about, you know, pets and animals and so forth, that tells you different information and it's a different conversation than they're going to be having with other people. And so, again, that's a chance to kind of like capture somebody else's interest and attention in a way that other people aren't.

Well, and also, you know, I find that people go back then to their friends and they're like, oh, how was it? How was the date? And it's like, you know, they really asked some interesting questions. And that's a positive. It shows that they're interesting. It shows that they're interested. And it often leads to better discussion.

Now, for whatever reason, the way people hang their toilet paper has become kind of a heated topic of discussion. Oh my God, I've had so many great conversations about this. And it's one of those where most people in the world...

have a preference. Oh, yeah. It's pretty clear. Okay, tell me what you are. Go on. Let's judge right now. Are you over? Are you under? I am 100% over. Oh, me too. Thank God.

Well, we're compatible. So that's good. We're so compatible. But yeah, I mean, if you go on social media and you see people having this conversation, like people have very, very strong heated opinions about it. And, you know, it's funny, you actually include this in your list of 250 questions that you can ask somebody else as like a conversation starter. So why do you say that a question like this, like how do you hang your toilet paper is a better way of trying to get to know someone

then asking some of the, you know, sort of standard superficial questions like, what's your favorite restaurant? Yeah, I mean, great. I mean, ask what their favorite restaurant is. Go for it. But then continue on to some other really interesting ones like...

Toilet paper over under, what do you prefer, laundry or dishes? Things like that are actually really fun to answer and also tie you back to learning more about someone. I love the toilet paper over under conversation because it's one that is so silly, but people have so...

As we said, they really have such strong opinions about it. So I find it diffuses energy quite fast also. I mean, I got into a heated discussion with someone about it once and I was like, I'm looking up the patent for this right now. It's over, by the way. The actual toilet paper patent shows it as over. And it's one that...

For whatever reason, it just makes people comfortable. It makes people laugh. It makes them feel like they have access to talk about other things. And it often just goes off in its own direction, right? So say we're talking about it. I know I came up with these questions. So I know what these questions are.

are but it then you know allows me to go say to you something like okay fine so if you feel so strongly about you know toilet paper being over what else are you so strongly about like do you do this before this or are you a laundry or dishes guy do you prefer to cook or clean like you

tell me a little more about you. And then it gets into, when I tried this once on a podcast with someone and he was picking numbers and one of them was laundry or dishes that just happened to come up. And in a split second, I learned about this guy

guys like college roommates and college life and how he, this is a long time ago at this point, how he was given a nickname because he would always let his dishes pile up. And who knew all of that was going to come out when we started talking to each other? And that's the point. Yeah. Yeah.

And also to the extent that you can ask a question that has a little bit of humor or is silly, that's also a good way to kind of diffuse some of the tension. Because in those early conversations where we're trying to get to know someone, we're often feeling stressed and anxious. Your heart might be racing. And to the extent that you can incorporate some humor, some levity into

into the situation that can help to put everyone's nerves at ease and make it easier to have a conversation that just feels comfortable and where you can go a little bit deeper.

Well, and that's, again, why there are 250 questions in this book, right? Because there are the levity questions. And then there are some really serious questions in there. You know, one of people's favorite questions is, how do you argue? And how do we argue? And if we don't argue, I mean, I'm blending some together. But if we don't argue, why? Are there things that you're not telling me?

Things like that are really important to talk about. You know, something else is like, how was your nuclear family perceived on the outside of your home versus what it was actually like on the inside of your home? Many people don't walk around thinking about that in their daily lives. But if you think about that, that can have a real impact on how you communicate and how you expect a romantic relationship to run. Yeah.

Yeah, I totally agree. And, you know, something I was thinking about in reading through your book was how

This list of 250 questions is great for giving people ideas for what to ask somebody else, but I think we also need to discuss the other side of that for a moment in terms of, you know, if somebody asks you a question, how much do you say? How deep do you go? You know, so just as we need to be prepared to drive the conversation and ask good and interesting questions, we also need to be prepared to respond.

And as I alluded to at the top of the show, some people worry about over-disclosing. And some people also just over-disclose because they want to get it all out there right away. They just want to cut to the chase and make sure that somebody else knows this information that they think is vital about themselves.

So that it's just all out there on the table. And sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Other people might perceive that as being too much. And, you know, there's been a lot that's been said and written in the popular media these days about Gen Z in particular being this generation of over-disclosers and dating. And it's like,

all right, let's lead with here's all my mental health conditions and all these other things in my life. And for some people, it's like, all right, that's a deal breaker because that is just TMI. It's too much too soon. But other people, again, like to just kind of get it all out there on the table and think that that's important and in the interest of getting to know someone. So I don't know. I'm curious. Do you have any thoughts on how much do you say or reveal about yourself? Yeah.

I do. I very strongly believe in you do you. Because if you're holding back, if you are an oversharer and you're holding it back and then all of a sudden you're going to just let yourself loose and be an oversharer, why wait till date five, six or seven? Just be you. When you're with the right person,

It won't matter. Your overshare will not scare them away. I mean, sometimes things have to do with timing and where you're each at and how much you're willing to disclose. You know, that's why part of these questions is answering them. And the other part is listening to the answer that the person is telling you, you know.

Someone also, if you're the asker, right? And you have this book and blame it on me. If there's an awkward way and you don't really know how to bring it up, say, I was just reading some of these questions in this book. Will you answer some of them with me? Or you can throw them out there and just have a couple in your back pocket that you want to use.

thing is, it's going to come to light no matter what. So that's why I say be you from the beginning. And if you're with someone where you really feel like you can be the most authentic, best version of yourself, then that's a clue that you're starting to see the right person. I can say to you, my husband and I met and the story's in the book, but it was logistically complicated.

But he was being with him was the easiest relationship I had ever had because I really could just be me. So again, that's what I say. Be you. Heed you. One size does not fit all in this case. I really believe that.

Yeah, and I agree with that assessment that like it's about being your authentic self because I think all too often when it comes to dating and relationships, we are trying to fit somebody else's mold and we're trying to follow like a certain set of quote-unquote rules for how a relationship is supposed to start and how it's supposed to develop. And when we get so bogged down in these rules,

Yeah.

Oh my God, throw them out the window, please, please, please, please, really. Because what rules work for someone else may not work for you. And that's the name of this game is finding the way and the person that works for you. I also think, you know, if you're in a conversation with someone and you're each asking each other questions, it's just as valuable to say, you know,

I don't know the answer to that. I don't quite know my thoughts on that, but I will think about it. And if you're in a situation where you find yourself hearing that or saying that, and it's you that needs to come up with the answer, think about it and get back to that person because that indicates that you care. And just showing up is part of the game.

Yeah. And I think that that's an important piece of advice is that sometimes we won't have the answer to something, you know, and looking through some of the questions that are in this book, some people might've never thought about them before. I hope there are questions that people haven't thought about before. I want people to feel like, wow, that's a great one. I'm so glad I'm being asked this right now.

Yeah. So we've talked a bit about tips for getting to know someone in general. Let's talk a little bit about getting to know them sexually. As I've said on the show many times before, a lot of people find it easier to have sex than to talk about sex. But I think we should probably be talking about it before we do it in the interest of maximizing pleasure, comfort, and safety for all involved. Why do you think it's so hard to talk about it versus do it?

I think in part because there's just something that feels so vulnerable about talking about sex, especially if we're talking about things like our fantasies or our wants, our likes and our dislikes.

It's hard to do it because these conversations are not normalized. We're not encouraged to have them with our partners, let alone with our friends or anybody else. Sex is this thing that we learn to be a private topic, a taboo topic, something that polite people don't discuss. It creates this weird situation where it's like most of us want to have sex,

And then we go and we have sex, but we've just never talked about it along the way because we've just found it too awkward or uncomfortable or vulnerable to initiate any kind of conversation about it, which is just kind of weird because sex is a pretty vulnerable act in and of itself. So why can't we talk about it before we do it?

Well, it's funny, as I said much earlier, I interviewed around 100 people just for this book. So I've talked to many more, but specifically to write this book. And inevitably, sex came up in nearly all of my conversations. And there were times, Sonia, I was even surprised at the breadth of people's comfortability.

talking about sex with their partners, with me, how people's religions and how they were raised contributed to how they felt about sex, how they talked about sex, how they or how they didn't masturbate, and how they showed up in a sexual way in their relationships. And

many more times than I would have liked to admit people said to me on these FaceTimes, we were face-to-face, they weren't just phone, they were in person and over Zoom or whatever. They commented like, wow, I opened up with you about sex so much more than I've ever spoken with my partner or boyfriend or girlfriend or husband or wife about. And I thought that was so fascinating.

You know, I got to say that happens to me all the fucking time. Because people know what I do for a living and they will pull me aside at bars or parties or whatever. And it's like, they just want to tell somebody about something in their sex life. And I hear this over and over from people. They're like,

I thought you would appreciate it or you would understand it. And it's like, they feel like they can tell me because they know what I do for a living, but they can't tell anyone else, including their partners. So yeah. And I think that's part of it is that we need to feel safe with somebody else in order to talk about sex. But how do we know it's safe to bring up the subject of sex with

somebody else, including somebody that we might have already had sex with. Because, you know, I think all too often we're afraid that we're going to be judged or shamed or something else bad, or we're going to be embarrassed. And so we're just trying to avoid that awkwardness by not talking about it at all. And I think that's true, not just for sex, but a lot of other topics in our lives like money and so forth. We just avoid the awkward topic by just not bringing it up at all. And

That sets the stage for problems later on.

Well, and this is one of those topics where if you talk about it early and often, it really does take some pressure off because things change in relationships, things change in life, things change in your bodies, things change based on your health, based on the season. And so if you're comfortable having a dialogue about this, then when those environmental factors happen, when you're busy at work, when you're tired, when you have kids, when you want to have kids,

It really does ease the conversation to have it not be something that you feel so scared to bring up. All right. So how do we do it? So how do we start to normalize conversations about sex outside of the bedroom? Right. So I think that what you just said is key outside of the bedroom when you're naked and you're doing it.

or you're in your moments of passion or foreplay, or you're in a moment that doesn't feel good or this, that, and the other, the stakes are high, right? And you're in this zone. And I find that having...

conversations about things like sex or things that are harder to speak about in a very peaceful, calm, neutral environment normalizes them. So that for me, and again, you're the expert in this area. So I hope you would agree with that.

Yeah, I think, you know, having a conversation about sex while you're in the heat of the moment, you know, doesn't always work out that well. And your mind is also distracted and focused on other things. So, yeah, taking it outside of the bedroom, I think, can make it a little bit easier to navigate it. However, I think you have to choose your time and your place wisely. You know, maybe this isn't a conversation for the breakfast table. It depends.

It could be, but maybe it's also not a conversation that you have while you're out at a restaurant in public. It's something where you want there to be a certain amount of privacy so that you can feel free to discuss openly and freely about the topic.

I think also it helps to some extent to do it at a time and place where you both kind of feel a little aroused and excited because if there's some little sexual spark there, I think that opens the door to talking about sex because there's this interesting thing that happens when we're sexually aroused, which is that our disgust response goes down. And so I think that that makes it easier to talk about things

like your wants and desires and fantasies, if you're already both at least a little bit turned on, because that just sort of lowers the threshold for disgust and just kind of makes it easier to engage with the topic in a way that I think can make it a little bit more productive. So, you know, maybe it's that you're...

finding just the right time to bring it up because maybe you just watch this steamy sex scene in a movie or TV show. And then afterwards, it's like, oh, well, what did you think about this scene? And that can be your launching off point. I think finding environmental factors to help your discussion of it is great, right? Even if you're like walking in the park and you see two people kissing, right?

right? You know, put your hand in your partner's hand and be like, Oh my God, look at them kissing. Are you good with how he kisses or anything that you want to try? Like, do I, again, like depends where you are in the relationship, like too much tongue, not enough. Is there anything you want to try? I mean, use that to naturally spur you on. I also think when you're getting to know someone is a great way to pepper in those questions. What do you like? Yeah.

What feels good to you? What's something, and these questions are in the book, but what's something that you've always wanted to try to

that you never have. I find sometimes when you're in the heat of the moment, you're also potentially more willing, both in a positive way and a negative way, to say yes to things that you would like to try, but also say yes to things that you might not want to because you don't want to ruin the moment, which is why I think it's important to find your sexual talking language with your partner.

What I think is interesting is that we talk a lot in life about bettering things, about improving things, right? So like, I want to do better at my job, or how can I be a better parent? Or how can I improve my strength or exercising? But having the conversation about, hey, how can we improve our sex life?

Doesn't mean that your sex life is bad. Just like how can I improve at my job? Doesn't mean I'm doing badly in work at work, but I want to do a little better. So checking in and having that sort of, can we do better discussion? It's easy to take that personally, sexually, like something's wrong when it's just about, is there anything you want to try? Is there anything that's on your mind? Do we need to talk about this? Maybe we're great. Does that make sense?

Makes total sense. And I think you're so right about finding environmental cues that can help you to kind of have these conversations. And some of the other things I was thinking about was like, all right, if you see a couple engaged in a PDA, public display of affection, that can just be an easy conversation about, well, what do you think about PDAs? What level of intimacy are you comfortable engaging in in public? And that's a conversation a lot of people kind of like

never have. Yeah. Would you do that in this situation? Would you feel comfortable making out at this restaurant? Yeah. Or if you happen to walk by a sex shop or a sex toy store, you know, you can ask, have you ever been in a sex shop? Have you ever been there before? Yeah. You know, so there's all kinds of ways where you can just take a little moment and turn that into something that is a productive conversation about sex and relationships and helps you get to know each other.

It's funny. You're making me think because so I have little kids and I've been reading about how to talk to them about sex and reproduction and all those different things. And I've adopted this same methodology for how to introduce this to my kids. So anytime one of my children unknowingly opens the door,

I have vowed that I will walk through it literally. So like my child said something about belly buttons the other day. And I was like, do you know why your belly button looks like that? Do you know it was connected to your belly button? And we got into umbilical cords. And then from umbilical cords, we talked about a few other different things about reproduction. And so I feel that way about.

Sex, and that's a very broad term from everything from making out to intercourse, right? And also partnership and what you're looking for sexually, whether it's one partner, two partner, three partner, more, whatever it is, what your beliefs are. I think that if a door opens in this arena, you should walk through it.

Yeah, and I think another thing that's helpful for that in terms of navigating conversations about sex, whether it's with a partner or with your kids, is that this allows it to be broken up into more bite-sized chunks, right? So that you don't have to do everything all at once. So it makes it a little more manageable.

Now, let me ask you a spicy question. Oh, I like spice, but I don't know where you're going with this. Okay, let's do it. It's a surprise spicy question. So, you know, when it comes to these sexual getting-to-know-you conversations with a partner, you know, a big...

sticky one for a lot of people is the sexual history question. You know, some people will want to know how many partners the other person has been with their quote unquote body count, if you will, which is a term I hate, but I'm only using it because a lot of people use it and know what I'm talking about there. But, you know, that's a conversation that has the potential to go off the rails pretty quickly. So I'm curious, is that a question we even need to ask in the first place? What do you think?

So to be honest with you, I don't actually know why people need to ask that question. I think if you have very strong beliefs about, for example, not having sex before marriage or not having sex before you reach a certain point and you hope that your partner has that too, then sure, I think that is a question to have. I find that the people that most ask this question are

are the people who have problems with this question, right? So if you know that you're someone who leans toward jealousy or envy, or it's going to weigh on you, if your potential partner has more sexual experiences and you're comfortable with, don't ask the question because honestly,

It doesn't matter. What matters is how that person is showing up sexually for you. And by the way, these sexual experiences are what's hopefully going to make that partner a better partner to you. So in my opinion, if you can't handle the heat, get out of the kitchen, right? Don't ask it if you know that's going to tip you emotionally in the wrong way.

You know, the way I think about this question is that a lot of people, when they're asking the body count question, aren't really asking about that. You know, they're really trying to get at something else. And it might be, for example, something about...

the person's sexual health status. So have they been tested recently? Do they have an STD or not? Or they might be asking because they want to make sure somebody has at least some sexual experience, or they want to make sure that somebody else doesn't have more experience than they do. And so I think ultimately it's like, is this the right question to ask? Or is there something that

else that you're really trying to get at here. And I think if you're really interested in another piece of information, like maybe it's asking that instead, because I think all too often the body count question gets turned into this like competitive thing that, you know, creates insecurity and jealousy and anxiety and doesn't really lead anywhere productive.

But again, it's a competitive question where there are no standard rules to the game. Right. Like, do you win if you have more partners? Do you win if you have less partners? Do you know what I mean? So it's you're asking in a weird vacuum. But I love that, actually, what you just said. I mean, you're getting back to what my whole project is about. Ask what you want to know the answer to or share what you would like someone else to know.

And I completely agree with that. We need to stop tiptoeing around things and trying to ask about things indirectly and instead ask the questions that we really want and need to know so that we can get that information. And, you know, ultimately, I think that that's what we need to do in terms of navigating and having successful conversations with somebody else to build the type of intimacy that's going to lead to love and romance and all of those other good things.

And finding the right partner, you know, you know, you're with the right partner when it's not daunting to ask some of these questions. Whereas you might be scared shitless to say to someone, have you been tested for STDs? Right. But when you're with someone else, you look at them and you think, God, I really want to have sex with you, but I would so much prefer if

We were tested first. Would that be okay? And that's not a problem. That shows that you're with someone who makes you really comfortable. And that's huge.

Yeah. And I think one other thing I would add to this is that I know some of these conversation starters and topics sometimes can be a little bit daunting. And if you find it easier to ask the question over text, you know, that could be another way to still have the conversation and maybe make it feel a little bit less high stakes because sometimes it's easier to type things out than it is to say them in person.

I totally agree with one caveat though. You never know how it's going to be received, right? So you have to understand that if you're asking it over text, you might not be there to give any subtext or clarification as to why you may be asking this question. So yes, I think over not asking a question, sure, if that's your vehicle, great. But also know that

there could be some loss in translation, right? And again, because I have to do this, right? Draw this back to my book for a second. There's so many different on-ramps for how to ask different types of questions in my book. You know, a common theme that I've heard from readers is that I felt like you're holding my hand.

as I've read it and you're taking me through. I didn't feel alone. I didn't feel like I was the only one going through this because there's such a breadth of experiences in the book and of people asking these questions. So if you feel like you need the help, it's another great reason to pick up this book because you're not alone. And that's the point. You're not alone.

You are definitely not alone. You are not alone. So thanks so much for this amazing conversation, Lindsay. It was a pleasure to have you here. Can you please tell my listeners where they can go to learn more about you and your work and get a copy of your new book?

Yes. Thank you so much for having me. That went by in a flash. So I can be found on at Lindsay Jill Roth on all social channels and my book romances and practicalities can be bought wherever books can be bought. Oh, great. Thank you again so much for your time. I really appreciate having you here.

Thank you for listening. To keep up with new episodes of this podcast, visit my website, sexandpsychology at sexandpsychology.com or subscribe on your favorite platform where I hope you'll take a moment to rate and review the show. If you listen on Apple Podcasts, please consider becoming a Sex and Psychology Premium subscriber to enjoy ad-free listening for just $3.99 a month.

You can also follow me on social media for daily sex research updates. I'm on Blue Sky and X at Justin Laymiller and Instagram at Justin J. Laymiller. Also, be sure to check out my book, Tell Me What You Want. Thanks again for listening. Until next time.