What It’s Really Like to Grow Up Non-Binary l Jeffrey Marsh
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It is the deep way that we experience ourselves. So in other words, it's different than a drag queen, which is someone, there's nothing wrong with drag queens, but that's someone who wears things. And that's part of that label is what you wear. Non-binary is much more of a conception of who you are deep in your soul.

So who is Jeffrey deep in their soul? I wish I knew. You're listening to Sex with Emily. I'm Dr. Emily, and I'm here to help you prioritize your pleasure and liberate the conversation around sex.

On today's show, I'm joined by activist, author, and queer commentator, Jeffrey Marsh, to discuss all things gender. Jeffrey breaks down their approach towards radical self-acceptance and how to really truly do it, how fearlessly demanding respect from others

frees you up to fully be yourself. The importance of representation for trans individuals and their experience as the first openly non-binary person on television. They even helped me identify my needs and go a little bit deeper and explore why it might be difficult for me to ask for all my needs to be met. We go there. We also dive into Jeffrey's book, How to Be You. How to Be You

Jeffrey, you were the first prominent, openly non-binary public figure to be interviewed on national television. So can you tell me about that? Tell me about your journey. What an experience to be the first person. And we're still, because I'm going to have to ask you today some of the basic questions because I have so many things I want to talk to you about. Yeah.

But I still think it's very confusing for people. They're like, they, them, she, her. Now Instagram wants me to choose. People are angry about it or confused by it. So tell me about your journey. Like, tell me everything, Jeffrey. Well, yeah. I mean, I'm happy to start at the beginning. As you were describing a little bit of, you know, why I'm known, I guess you could call it. I was thinking, how many of those words in that description do you want to talk about?

The first openly non-binary person on TV to talk about being non-binary. There's just a whole chain of things that came together to make non-binary even possible. And that doesn't mean that our identities are not valid. Of course they are. But we are living in a time where there is a context and a language where we can fully be open about who we are.

And to me, that's why coming on your show was such, why I've been looking forward to recording this with you for so long. Because it does have to do with how we relate to each other. And it does have to do with how we respect ourselves and each other. And which trips up so many people, it has to do with being a human, having needs, and

Being okay that you have needs, being able to say that you have needs, and being able to request that other people help you with your own needs. So meaning like, I need to be respected for who I am. Mm-hmm.

And so part of talking about being non-binary is just trying to help people respect me for who I am. Yeah, exactly. So, so let's go back to non-binary though. So just to ask you these questions, non-binary, gender non-conforming, like how do we even just, just break it down from my audience who still, it still can be challenging for people because was it more like to give context? Was it more like you were born a cisgender male, right? Yeah.

No, no, no, not at all. Okay. So the way we talk about it is I was assigned male at birth. Assigned male at birth. So there's a birth certificate in a filing cabinet in Pennsylvania with my name on it. And it says male, which I think is what you're getting at. And the reason we phrase it that I was assigned male at birth

is because it feels like that was a word and a label and a category that is irrelevant to who I am, stick with me, and was assigned to me. That was a decision made for me before I could speak for myself. And that decision was based on the genitalia that you were born with.

Well, yeah. I mean, doctors at the time, that's largely what they were basing it on is outward physical appearance. Exactly. So then what happened? So walk me through this, Jeffrey. So how old are you when you're like, this just doesn't feel right to be assigned as a man? Oh, gosh. Kindergarten? Okay. So tell me about that. Yeah. No, I love the question because I remember sitting in kindergarten. We had these felt figures. So some...

I'm going to say, you know, bless teachers' hearts. One of the teachers we had, I think we had at least two teachers for our kindergarten class. One of them spent time cutting out felt figures, one in the shape of a boy and one in the shape of a girl.

And they also cut out felt clothing and felt accoutrements. So objet, right? A book bag, an umbrella, right? As a class, we were supposed to sit around and dress these figures for the day and for the weather. So some, you know, lesson about you wear a sweater when it's cold or, you know, I don't know what we were supposed to learn. And I was constantly getting in trouble for putting the wrong...

things with the wrong figure, the stuff that wasn't supposed to go. So you put a dress on the male, perhaps on the boy. Yeah. And I was always the kid in class who wanted to wear the princess dress and I was not allowed to at a very young age. And I was, I haven't thought about this in a really long time, but before too long, my feet grew too big to wear my mom's shoes.

Without her knowing about it. Do you know what I mean? Like my feet were starting to stretch into my mom's shoes when I started, you know, early teens. This way of expressing has always been a part of me. And the reason talking about non-binary is important is because it goes even beyond expression. It is the deep expression.

way that we experience ourselves. So in other words, it's different than a drag queen, which is someone, there's nothing wrong with drag queens, but that's someone who wears things. And that's part of that label is what you wear. Non-binary is much more of a conception of who you are deep in your soul.

So who is Jeffrey deep in their soul? I wish I knew. But would you not even like to think about gender then? Like, would you ever say, well, there's a part of me that feels more feminine or masculine? Would you ever use any of those words? Or is it just sort of something else entirely? Yeah.

Oh, I love that. Yeah, of course. And I, well, so I have to get meta with you for a second. I love it. I'm so mad. I love that you're Zen trained. I've been meditating for 20 years. I just feel like I want to go. No, I sense that we can go there right away. So the meta conversation is so many of the boxes we put ourselves into our thing and we get attached to the box and

So to me, non-binary is literally a chance to uncheck all the boxes and then see what we have left. And throughout human history, there have been people like me and they've been called lots of different things. A while ago, you asked specifically about the word non-binary. And for us, the binary genders, binary meaning two, the binary genders are man and woman.

the two genders that most people think are the only two genders. And to say I'm non-binary just means I don't fit in the man category. I don't fit in the woman category. And me personally, Jeffrey, I'll speak very, very specifically about me. I feel like I have a wheelbarrow full of

I just have so much gender going on. It's not an absence of gender for me. It's just like I express all, all in every and every which way. What I love that you're doing is because I know that you coach and you speak and you have a beautiful TED talk that you did. And when you check that out, we'll link all that in the show notes. So let me tell you about a conversation I had. I had a conversation with a close family member. She's a lesbian. She's in her 50s.

And she said to me just the other day, she said,

I don't understand. She lives in the Midwest. So it's a little bit different. Like we're in LA, but she said, I just don't understand. I have a friend's son who's seven years old and already wants to declare that he is a, she or wants to do an operation or something. And then I, and then my mom chimed in and was like, yeah. And so-and-so's daughter says that she's bisexual, but she's 14 and hasn't been with anybody. This is crazy. What's going on, right? The older, like it's crazy. And I was like, but,

I said to my friend, I said, but you think about it. I know. And I know for a fact that in kindergarten, she felt that she was attracted to women because we've had these conversations. And I said, or girls. And that was hard for her to come out. Not until she was in her early twenties. I said, can you imagine how many other kids in the class are

Probably felt that way as well, only because they're in a box and there's a choice. If you're a man, you have to be the woman if you're willing to be with a man. But now what I see this as giving young people opportunity to say it's up for grabs. I actually don't know yet. And how beautiful is that, that they can come from the place of choice and

and figuring it out, like, who do I want to be? And then they were like, oh, yeah, I guess I kind of get it. You know, that was like the best. I was just trying to kind of, I just think it's just really misunderstood. People get angry about it. People even make comments on my, like, why you have to say she, her on your Instagram, even though now Instagram's giving us the option to have pronouns on. So what I'm saying is, do you feel that this is the case that this is going to serve, or you probably have seen this? A lot of young people or people of all ages to realize,

It's my choice and I get to identify whoever I want. Yeah, of course. And to back up just a teeny tiny bit, who you are deep down is not a choice. You're talking about the choice to express yourself. That's what I'm saying, the choice. Yeah. She said you didn't have a choice. That's exactly what was the point. Like she's like, I didn't, you didn't have a choice. Thank you for circling me back because I lost my point. She's like, I'm like, you always said you didn't have a choice. So if these people are now they have choices, right? So, right. You didn't have a choice. Yeah.

Yeah, well, and one thing that I know gets stolen from young LGBTQ people is their future. I know I look incredibly young, and people can look up my social media to verify, but I'm 43. I was born in 1977, and I literally thought that I was going to be dead.

I really began to more and more understand who I was at the height of the AIDS crisis and at the height of celebrities even. Right. Dying on TV. And I never thought I would be 43. I never thought I'd be 23. Because you thought. Because I never saw an example of someone like me surviving. And so if there's anything I can do with my channel, it's to give that seven-year-old who was like me

the chance to survive and to know that there is a place for you. There is a future for you. The fleece shirt looks great with fabulous skin. Hey, thank you. I'm wishing you this quite a lot. You do. I mean, it's just really, it's also, you know, loving yourself, loving yourself, loving yourself is the best skincare. It really is. I mean, I mean, cause that's also like your book, you know, is all about how to be you.

How to learn to love yourself, accept yourself, stop the negative self-talk. Yes. You mentioned anger a couple of times. I did? Anger? That...

Yeah. People are angry. I make people angry. Yeah. And we've had a lovely conversation. And you can probably see that I'm just as sweet as pie. And I hold firm to the understanding and the commitment that I will be respected. And nothing makes people angrier than when you do that.

So I'll give you an example. People often talk about me as a walking metaphor. It's pretty obvious when you see me, what I was told is wrong with me from a very early age. And the metaphor is, I've learned to not only accept that about myself, but love it, celebrate it, enjoy it, adorn it.

Right. It's like the thing that we dance in it. Right. Yeah. And this is what you talk about. I think it was in your TED talk about the things that we think that are unlovable about ourselves are actually the things we need to go towards, which is such a concept that people think, well, I could never tell anybody about. We're not even just talking about sexuality and gender, just shame that we have.

about where we failed or we should be better, we should be smarter, we should be more fit or all the worries. And you were a living example of that. You were told you can't wear these shoes, you can't dress this way. You were probably bullied. Yeah, I was bullied actually inside and outside of my home. The places where you are supposed to be safest, I was not. And, you know, instead of becoming angry at myself, instead of choosing...

Bitterness, heaviness, and obsession with getting even. I've chosen to help other people make the same transition, pun intended, that I did from being misunderstood, being bullied, to helping others.

people heal. And it's the same thing you do. So we recognize each other. We do. We do. So Jeffrey, what was the turning point for you when you thought I'm not going to be bullied and I'm going to go towards the pain. I'm going to go towards this. I'm going to live this life of accepting and loving myself. Cause we often say, I say all the time, if you don't love yourself, it's going to be really hard or even like yourself. It

It's really hard to find a genuine someone else to love you. You're like, oh yeah, self-love, blah, blah, blah. But you've walked the walk, talked the talk. And I'd love to know what that looked like for you.

I love how you just said that. Self-love, you know, blah, blah, blah. Well, because he was like, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Hashtag self-love. But no, but it's not. So what I love is that you're such an example of this, of somebody who really took that. People are like, hear it. But they're like, yeah, but then they don't hear the negative tape. Like, oh, yeah, I love myself. And I'm like, you're an idiot. You know, just...

So they don't, they don't really make the decision. No, you're exactly right. Yes. So they, so they read hashtag self-love on Instagram and then they switch. I was going to make a Twitter joke. They switch over to Twitter and find self-hate.

But what I mean is, you know, they get off Instagram and all of a sudden it's a deluge inside their mind that you did this wrong. You were so stupid. The people at work are laughing at you. You know, all of that stuff happening internally. And I'll tell you a really, really quick story about the monastery where I trained. I was there for an extended stay. So I've been studying Zen for over 20 years now.

And I was at the monastery for an extended stay and I was about to leave and go to the real world for a while, to the outside world for a while. And the night before I left, I had very strong feelings like I did not want to be here anymore and went to the meditation hall and meditated.

and then petitioned the monastery the next day to stay longer. And they said yes. And so I stayed a little bit longer. And what I was able to see is that for me, I can't speak for anyone else, for me, those feelings, those sensations, that heaviness, that darkness, however you want to call it, arrived at

when I was just on the edge of a real sense of freedom and lightness, that it was in a way a spiritual sort of counterbalance. So in my experience, people who are the heaviest in this life have that chance to be the lightest. And I try to help people to do that. Okay, so I'm going to go back to the monastery. Where was the monastery? If you...

In California, Bay Area. Oh, because I lived in San Francisco for 20 years. Was it the Zen or was it Green Gold? This was way outside, way outside the Bay Area in the woods, the foothills of the Sierra Nevadas, which is a...

gorgeous place i mean as you know california anyway is a gorgeous place but i was just yeah so it's sort of like the story of the buddha like sitting under the the bodhi tree when everything they've been there he's been there for days and then all of a sudden all the negative it's like a final bullied like you can't do this you're a bad person whatever it was like the negative mara mara mara

And then, then right after that was when he found enlightenment, right? The Buddha found enlightenment. Are you saying that in a way you were there the night before you were leaving and you felt this heaviness that you wanted to leave? You're like, I got to get out. Is that what you felt? I got to get out of here. Oh, maybe I was a little too euphemistic. I wanted to leave earth. Oh, you were saying like, I wanted to leave this life. Yes. Okay. I wasn't sure I was going to make a difference, but let's

Similar in a way. Okay. Got it. Wow. You felt after all the days they're meditating, you thought I'm not going to go back out there. I want to just end my life. This is something people don't talk about in self-care, but sometimes when you go into that sort of work, the systems that have been keeping you, you,

will kick so far into trying to keep you from breaking free that things will get very dark. So it happens to a lot of people. Because they're holding on to you because you've been using them your whole life. They don't want you to get rid of your protective. It's like your defenses. They don't want to be out of a job. Yeah. They don't want to be out of a job. Exactly. They don't want to be out of a job. All of our negatives, all of our defenses are like, nope, we're not going to release it. So then you stayed an extra and you had this

Enlightenment, epiphany, you have a chance. And so that was the moment you stayed for a little bit longer and you thought, no, I'm going to live and I'm going to live this life. And I'll tell you, the guy that the monastery said, you know, you'll notice that there's no cliff at the monastery property. There's no lake there.

There's no, because it's really essential that people who are doing self-care are extra kind to themselves, are extra protective of themselves, have every support possible, have every person that they can reach out to available.

while they're doing this work. And that circles back to what we mentioned about needs and having them and being clear about them. It's so hard to get to see, even just you're saying like, these are my pronouns and here's the needs and I need to be respected, especially pleaser. So I'm a pleaser and I have a hard time asking for my needs a lot of times. And I end up doing things that I, you know, afterwards regret. I don't want, I want to be liked.

I want, you know, and I know now it's so clear to me that I'm really I've been doing so much work around it that it's it's always glaring when I do it now. So I'm trying. But we're talking about kind of a little bit adjacent to setting boundaries. Right. And letting people know how to treat you. Right. And that is such a practice, too. We are so not taught any of this. So you got out of the monastery and I guess we're talking 20 years ago. So you've been on this path now for a while. Yeah.

Yeah. And it was off and on with the same monastery for 20 years. So that was after one of my stays. And, you know, can you go deep for a moment? What's a need that you have? Say it on the podcast. What's a need I have that I don't currently have or just a need? I need to be... Just name one. Loved, respected. Right? Like, isn't that so human and simple? And every single person tries to live their whole life not admitting that they need to be loved.

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Yeah, I think we're afraid to be rejected. We're afraid we're going to be rejected because we don't go after the love because we think, well, if someone really loves me, and this isn't even conscious sometimes, if they let me, if I really let someone in to love me and they see all of my darkness, well, they won't really love me because we have so much shame around who we are. Wow. Yeah. And that probably comes right out of our childhood, right? Oh, it is.

all comes from childhood. Right? If we could just present to our parents or whoever, caregivers, that image, that lovable image, and not show them all the whole picture of what's going on with us.

I don't know if you've experienced this, but a lot of people I coach with were always the child that no one had to worry about. I've absolutely heard it. I know I have these people as friends and they, you know what I mean? Like you can't get their needs met because no one thinks they ever need anything. Don't worry about me. I'm over here. I'm the good one. I, you know, nobody has to worry about you and not the, you know, not the like discipline problem or whatever a different childhood experience would be.

But it's to me, when I did that, when I was a kid, I used Jesus as that shield. And I was, I could quote the Bible and I was the most like in with Jesus kind of person. And I was using it as a shield in a way to seem perfect and lovable and all of that stuff. As like a bookend, you know, having gone on this spiritual journey to be not currently Christian, not harboring any resentment,

toward Christianity in the least, but I'm not Christian at the moment. So many Christians write to me and say, they use the exact same language in every DM. They say, I remind them of Jesus. And so there's some sort of like symmetry of what I've devoted my life to is some sort of bookend to what I was raised with. Well, that must be because you were raised with it. So it's truly part of who you are. Are there parts of it though, that you can still

Respect and honor parts of being Lutheran. Parts of Christianity, for sure. Yeah. I mean, like, for example, if you read the things Jesus said in the Bible, thumbs up. I mean, that really is spiritually sound stuff. I was told as a kid. So an example of the other side, I was told as a kid, you're, you know, Jesus doesn't love you. God hates you. You're never going to heaven. Right.

Unless you change who you are. And out of your home told you this. You're so brave, Jeffrey, that you, so many people stay in those environments because they're so afraid to leave family and to leave what's perceived as the only love they have. But it's really around people who aren't willing to accept them as who they are. Can I say something weird? Yes, of course. I think that exchange to stay small in order to be safe

I think that takes bravery in a weird way. Yeah, that is. That to me is somebody really on the edge. You're so right. That is really, you know, it's all brave. We're all trying to survive, right? I think so. When I use that word brave. It's good.

I mean, it takes a lot of spiritual, mental, emotional energy and focus to hide who you are 24 seven. Well, that's the thing. Hiding. I know I did it. We're not even talking about sexuality or just hiding that you don't want to be in a relationship that you're in or living with. Hiding that you have needs to bring it back around. Right. So,

So how do you, do you work with people too? You help them. That's kind of one of the, your basis is like, what is a need? So going back to that, well, we also don't even have the language to even ask for what we want without being right. Especially if you grew up in a home where your needs were just irrelevant, which was sort of my upbringing that no one ever asked what I wanted. It was like, it didn't matter. I was on everyone else's agenda and it wasn't important. Yeah.

And it wasn't nurturing and it wasn't getting to granted. My mom's great. We're in a good place, but she had her own. Everyone's parents does. They don't, they love you in the best way they can. Okay. But I'm still trying to figure out now sometimes like what are my needs? Because when you're somebody who's constantly like everyone else's needs are more important or no one ever asked me, I remember going to college in my twenties and or 18 and

And I remember just feeling like, who am I? I don't know what I want to eat or where I want to sit or what I want to be.

And I didn't have the words then to say, oh, you're 18 and you just came from your home and no one ever asked you what you wanted or what you needed. What I did is, and this is something I still have struggled with and I work on, is that I just beat myself up. That's actually when I remember my negative tape got really loud. Like, God, you're so stupid. Like, how do you not know what everyone else knows? And even though I was at a good college, I was just like, everyone's smarter. Everyone had better parents who asked them about their needs. Like, I was just like...

How did I get to be 18 and not know myself? And it wasn't until therapy and all the years realizing, well, no one freaking asked and I didn't feel seen.

So it's interesting journey. Yeah. Anyway, I haven't thought about that either. Yeah. Did you just say anyways? No. Anyways. No, I see. I don't take up a lot of space for my own. I don't usually. Yeah, because that was a brilliant story. Don't anyways it. There are a couple of things that I loved in that story because we're all told by that negative self-tape that we are especially awful. But every single person is going around being told that they're especially awful.

which is something that makes us all the same and brings us all together. And the other thing I love about your story is, you know, there's no 18-year-old alive who

is clear on what they want and what they're doing. Well, that's a good point. Yeah, that's true. That's true. I mean, and then some people have the parents that are constantly telling them what they should be and what they should do. And then those people feel oppressed because they're like, I didn't want to be a doctor or I didn't want to be a pastor. I didn't want, you know, so they don't have choice. So at least I, you know, had a choice. Yeah.

And oh, and I got some really good questions from our Instagram listeners that might kind of help us with this. But first, when I say to you, let's go back to the basics. Yes. So that's what we mean when we say non-binary. Yes. And we use, you asked, I never got a chance to address it, but you asked, you know, were you all sitting in a room together talking about this stuff? And it sort of seems like that, but we were...

talking to each other and fueling each other and supporting each other on places like Tumblr, if you remember Tumblr. Yes. And Vine. And, you know, we were coming out as non-binary and connecting with each other. I remember DMing with other non-binary activists and stuff like that. And we thought, for example, they as a pronoun is so convenient because people use it to mean one person

Already, people say someone left their wallet here. I hope they come back and get it. I wish they weren't so forgetful to leave their wallet, right? You're saying they and you mean one person. So we just thought, oh my goodness, I don't have to be a he, I don't have to be a she. I can be a they now.

And it has become one of the cornerstones of our movement because it is so important to use respectful language.

And we didn't anticipate that, you know, quote unquote pronouns would become this big deal, but they certainly have. And it's simply because it's so important for respect. And now I feel like in the last few years, people are starting to definitely come around. I mean, you see social media, people are coming around to it, but they're still sort of confused about

by some of it, but I think it gets easier. The more we talk about it, it's like, great, whatever you want. You know what it's like? There are a few things that it's like. So you have a friend who gets married and their name changes. Well, you stumble over it for a while and then you just use the new name. There's no big deal, right? So you could find out a new set of pronouns for someone and you stumble over it for a

And also like you don't know the gender of a dog and you use they. People do all the time. You don't know the gender of an unborn baby. And then the baby's born and you know the gender and you just start using whatever pronouns are next. So there are lots of examples of us showing respect by using language in certain ways. That's all we're asking for. Now let's talk about, so they, them pronouns for trans and gender nonconforming people.

So what about trans fitting into, because not everyone trans is non-binary, right? Correct. Yes. So the T in LGBT stands for trans, and it's used as an umbrella term for people who are not the gender they were assigned at birth.

So that's the language I was using before. And it's the easiest for this conversation. So Laverne Cox has a birth certificate somewhere that says one thing, and Laverne is Laverne now, and transitioned to be a she-her. I have a birth certificate that says, it does not say non-binary. I can guarantee that. And I have transitioned and now come out as non-binary. So we're both trans, even though I use they-them.

Laverne uses she, her. Does all of that make sense? That makes sense. Yeah, because people get caught, like it means that you have to have an operation or it means that you have to take hormones or it means it doesn't mean anything. Oh gosh. Yes. And you know, in my bio, you were talking about how I was the first person to talk about this stuff openly on national TV. And I was asked about my genitals. Yeah. When you come out as trans, you give up a certain amount of

Right. No, that's true. Even in my industry, like soon that I'm sleeping with everybody. Well, yeah, of course. But no, I get it. But it's actually a trend. You're like, that's you say that's not OK to ask me that. What is the right way to handle that? I've chosen to live a life where and hopefully you notice how charming I am. I've chosen to live a life where people can ask me anything because that's what I want to give to the world.

So when I was asked about that on TV, I just answered, honestly, the reason it's not the best idea is because not everybody wants to talk about their genitalia. So don't ask everybody. What can I ask what genitalia you have? Yeah, I have a penis and it doesn't make me a man. Right. Exactly. A penis does not make you a man. Yes, there are women in this world with penises. Tis true.

Right. And you know, I am not a biologist, but biology is incredibly complicated. And gender is usually an amalgam of a few things for people. They think about chromosomes. They think about hormones. They think about what's called secondary sex characteristics. So whether you have facial hair or not, they think about your genitalia, right?

All of those things kind of mush together, make up a gender for the lay person. For biologists, it's much more complicated than that. But all the things I just mentioned are incredibly vibrant, wild, weird. There are people in humanity who are born with all kinds of genitalia. Right. All kinds. There are XXY chromosomes. There are all kinds of people with all kinds of hormone levels. There are women...

who are what we call cisgender women, so non-trans women, whose birth certificate says woman, and they live as a woman, right? Who have facial hair. It just happens. It's hormones. It's everything. What is gender based on? And the reason it's a good question to ask yourself is, now we're getting extra deep, but I know you like that. It can be a system of oppression, right?

Yes. Separate and unequal genders. That's what we're amounting to. So I'm sure everybody was raised with the idea that in the binary gender system, one gender is better than the other gender. Right. And if you even conceive of people like me who are not either of those two, we're horrible. Right. We're certainly not bad.

better than men. You know what I mean? Right. You're really putting up, I'm so glad the work you're doing because I hope to see this in the world in the next five, 10 years where we just don't even see it. I mean, don't you think these, these, the younger people who are saying, well, I don't know what I am and I'm not declaring it. I was celebrating that. I think absolutely. Right. If parents embrace that. If parents embrace it, that's the thing. I think parents, at least some parents I know are embracing it more so I think, cause there's, there are more role models like yourself.

But when parents embrace that, they send a message of autonomy to their child that you are in the driver's seat of declaring who you are, which may be the biggest gift that a parent could give.

to their kid. And it's so hard for parents because a lot of parents see their kids as an extensions of themselves. Right. And they think, well, if my kid is a certain way, then people aren't going to respect me or, you know what I mean? It's what is the, what is everyone going to think? But I think this is such great words to hear because do you feel like there's more and more people now because of hormones, there's all these studies that saying that people born after 92 have less are born with less testosterone and less estrogen and

Or do you think that there's just more people talking about it now? Yeah. Well, no, I think it's something that we'll see. Yeah. You know, it's just unclear right now. You make me think of a couple of things, though. Tell me. Do you mind? Yeah. That if you dig into the historical record, there's always been trans people. There's always been people who have nothing. Yes.

a man or a woman, and we've talked about them in different ways and conceived of them in different ways. And in some cultures, they've been celebrated and seen as closer to God than other folks. And in some cultures, they've just been mundane and they're seen as the same as other people, right? It's just, we've always been around. And the other thing you made me think of is when left-handedness

a genetic trait, when it became more acceptable, quote unquote, I'm using quotes around this, the number of left-handed people skyrocketed. But of course, what I mean is more people could use their left hand because it was natural for them because it was de-stigmatized. So as we de-stigmatize being non-binary and being trans, you're going to hear about more people doing it because they've always been there. This is the question we got from Instagram a few times. So someone said,

For people who are non-binary, how does their sexual preference work? So you could still be non-binary, but gay, you could be non-binary and lesbian, right? Because sexuality and gender. So I'm sure you- The kids on TikTok say, I'm a non-binary lesbian. I love it because you would think the term lesbian relies on

one person being a woman and the other person being a woman, but not to lump everyone together, of course, but the kids today, I can't believe I sound like such a 43-year-old. The kids today are just so liberated that the words are something that they can pick and choose to suit their needs when they talk about what they want or who they want to be with or how they're feeling in that particular moment.

And I take such inspiration from that approach to gender and sexuality. It's the right way to go. So we're saying, what was the actual question? It was for people who are non-binary, how does their sexual preference work? This is going to be the most like you answer. You got to communicate with your partner, right?

That's the answer. Cause I came out as non-binary and my partner said, well, what does that make me? And I was like, I don't know. What does that make you? It doesn't make you any right. It doesn't have to do with sexuality, gender, sex. It's different. Over the coming weeks, we had to discuss it. And you know, it basically means you're attracted to me. So great. So then did you decide not to use, yeah. Is your partner, can I ask how your partner identifies? We use the word queer because it's very inclusive to us. Okay. Yeah.

And so, cause we know we're not, you know, we're not going to use the word straight to describe what we're doing. He's a he, him, he's a man. Okay. And so we went through a time of discussing it. Okay. Got it. You came to it. Can you discuss, and I've never, biphobia, especially in regards to bi men. There's a lot of bi people. And again, it kind of goes to like, you can't be bi, you must choose. It just seems like it's just people are just don't have a lot of information. Yeah.

Well, it's like your friend saying, how does a 14 year old know that they're bi if they haven't been with anyone? It's like, you must know that sexuality is a whole lot more than just what you do with whom.

There's a whole matrix of an inner life of emotions and crushes and attractions. And we are complicated, messy, beautiful creatures that have a whole lot going on. Because this comes up a lot. There's a whole lot of, just in culture in general, there's a whole lot of bi erasure. So when a bi person is with...

With a certain person, they get X label. That's not bi. When they're with a different person, they get a different label. That's not bi. And just declaring themselves bi can be such an act of self-reliance because they're aware of the truth of their identity.

Yeah. And I guess queer is just an easier way to say it too, I think, to get out of the bi thing. Couldn't you just be, I just think queer is all encompassing now. Yeah. And I think a lot of people find the term bi useful because

because of the way their attraction works. And of course, you'd want to talk to a bi person about why that label is so powerful for them. But I like queer because it's just so, you know, it's a messy word. It is. It is. Yeah, exactly. Well, first, I want to go back to one thing when you were talking about, I was, we were both talking about younger people who are coming out and hopefully their parents embrace it. But how can parents learn to embrace it?

embrace their child's choices around the gender.

I know, again, we'll emphasize for everybody, and I know what you mean, but we'll emphasize that it's not a choice. It's an inherent thing that happens to your kid. Did I say that? Choices around their... Okay. Well, I think you were saying like choosing to come out, which is an important choice. Choosing to come out. That's what I meant. That's what a person makes, right? Right. But so many people just want to assume that it's a choice and they can convince their kid not to be who they are. And that's not good. So...

The answer, of course, because I coach a lot of parents, is you have to demonstrate total loving self-acceptance. You know this from your work. Nobody's going to pick up what you're putting down unless you're putting it down. Meaning nobody's going to get any lesson from you. This is my experience. No one's going to get any wisdom from you unless you are demonstrating a person who knows that wisdom and lives it. Mm-hmm.

So no one will take me seriously as an authority on self-compassion unless I am doing it. And it's the same for how do I raise a kid? Yeah. But that's then learning people self-compassion who have never loved themselves. They have to do the work. It's the answer nobody wants. And, you know, talking about gender, you know, moms especially are conditioned to sacrifice their entire selves and their lives for

for their family and children. And all your children will get from that is that women should sacrifice their whole selves and their whole lives for other people. Yes. I hate to put it so bluntly. No, I know. I have friends like that too. What you want to demonstrate is self-reliance and loving yourself and self-care. I love it. So you're part of your coaching program, which people can find on your site, which is jeffreymarsh.com.

I love that you offer coaching to parents and to everybody, but it seems like this would be a really, you'd be busy right now. Can I, oh my gosh. Yes. And can I let you in on a secret? Please. A bunch of parents come to me and say, can you coach my 14 year old who's non-binary, you know, needs help coming out at school or whatever. And I always say,

Oh, yes, of course. What I like to do is have one session with the parents first. And invariably, the parents end up coaching with me. And we may somewhere down the road get to helping the 14 year old, but it really needs parenting is such a journey of self discovery.

And every parent wants to pawn off the self-discovery onto the other people in the family and help them do it. But you can't. I love that you turned. I didn't even know where that was going. You redirected, like, let's start with you, parent. Yeah, exactly. That's beautiful. I trick them. You do. You're good at that. I trick them into loving themselves. You have such a wonderful way about you. It's true. A lot of us are...

Just, it's just so hard. And would you say that you still have slip ups? You still have days, times where you don't feel, does it go away? Do you ever feel like some days or no, you've just sort of been doing it for so long that you, you always love yourself without the negative stuff. No, I love that you're asking about slip ups because I need more clarity from you. Define a slip up. Okay. So in self-care, so in self-care, I, I'm really hard on myself. I have these negative thoughts.

I don't ask for what I need. I think it's my things are my fault. I assume I'm the wrong, you know, but then I have to like stop myself and turn it around. And sometimes every day, but sometimes for days, it's fine. You know what I mean? That kind of slip up. Does that kind of like, I didn't, I wasn't the most loving to myself today. Like not today, but in general, those kind of days. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, I love it. So a slip up is any time where you don't need the meet the standard of self-care for that day.

If that's the definition, no, I don't have slip ups because I have no standards for self-care. Why are you bearing the lead? What do you mean? There's no day where I'm supposed to do anything or achieve anything with self-care. I do not. Nope. Not going there. So could there be a day where I fall into where an old self-tape is playing?

Oh my gosh, yes. Like a self-hate internal tape? Yeah, sure. You know, some people think that achieving some kind of spiritual happiness or whatever means that you won't have your self-hate tapes play anymore. But no, no, I don't find that to be true for me. Sometimes it's like stimulus and response. It's so ingrained, it'll start. But I don't take it seriously and I don't listen and it doesn't ruin my life and I

What do you do? Don't care about it. You just kind of let it go. You're like, there it goes again. Everyone's got their own ways of dealing with it. Depending on the situation, I will start telling myself very kind things in the sense that my self-talk is my business and I'm going to choose. I'll literally close my eyes and say, I love you, Jeffrey. Thank you for who you are. I'm glad you're here.

I know you're trying really hard today. Thank you for that. You know, we're just taught to abandon ourselves, frankly. And all I do is try to come on back. Do you have any advice then, like what we could be doing for more self-care for ourselves then if you don't have a daily practice around it? I wrote the book. The thing I'll say is that it's very poignant to me that the time when we need self-compassion the most

is the time when we're least able to give it. Meaning,

The most difficult time in anyone's self-compassion journey is going to be the very beginning of it. And that's when you're least talented at it. Do you know what I mean? So the time when you are absolutely the most desperate, when you absolutely should forgive yourself, love yourself unconditionally, let yourself off the hook, when you should just be pouring love like crazy.

over your psyche at every single waking minute is the time when you least know how to do that. And it's just one of the ironies of the self-compassion journey. Some people, when they start a self-compassion journey,

we'll start to think ignorance is bliss. And I should have like never started this. Do you know what I mean? Because you start to feel worse. Yeah, you're like, it's harder than it was. Yes. For a while. Yeah. And you start uncovering these patterns, but then blaming yourself for the patterns and you start hating yourself even more than when you were just kind of like showing up to work late with your Starbucks and not thinking about it, right? Right. Yeah. That to me is very poignant and difficult. So the advice would be

Be as kind to yourself as you can. Keep going. It does absolutely get better. You get more talented at it. You find friends that are going to match your same goals and where you're pointed to. It's so important to find those people in your life.

I think so. So I'm glad to be here with you. I know, me too. It's so nice to talk to you here. And how would you like to see language change and evolve around pronouns over time? Oh, that's a really interesting one. You know, people often ask me, do I want eventually for everyone to use they, them? And the answer is absolutely not. Because a lot of people love she, her, and, you know, they...

are a woman and that's who they are. And I would never, you know, there's this common misconception that people like me want to like tear down gender or something. Yeah. Quite the opposite. I want everyone to love whatever gender they are. And that's, that's what I'm into. So our language is going to evolve. I mean, there's nothing we can do to stop it contrary to popular belief. And I, I would just want it to become that,

whatever way is going to be more inclusive. And can I let you in on a little secret? There's probably something on the frontier that we will begin to not call ourselves non-binary anymore because it refers to what we're not. And so we might start to use language to talk about what we are. You know, that's where words like gender fluid comes in and, you know, stuff like that. Gender fluid sounds kind of more fun.

Doesn't it? Yeah. Gender fluid. Gender can be fun. Isn't that a good message? Yeah. How about I'm gender fun? Gender fun. Gender enthusiastic. Gender delightful. Here's another question. How can we make space for the non-binary community? I think the most important thing you could do as an ally, this is going to sound so...

tragic, but I don't mean it that way. Don't look at us with disgust. That's your assignment. So a lot of us leave the house and we're wearing what we wear and we're presenting how we present. And there is something that is gender different about somebody in public. Don't treat that person unkindly. That's your assignment. Because a lot of people have

Just have been trained into an initial reaction of finding us gross or scary or difficult or whatever. It's just threatening. Yeah. And just don't do that, please. Treat us like full, beautiful human beings. Good answer.

Okay. Thank you. It's an important one. It is. It's a really important answer because people, because it's say like you're wearing makeup, eyelashes, which are fabulous. Gorgeous. You complimented my skin. You do look gorgeous, your skin. Skincare, but also foundation. Right. Of course. Same, same. So most days, this is how you, you dress. You dress more. Oh, indeed. Yeah. Okay.

Yeah. So next time, just be kind. That's what we're saying. Be kind. What about in your book? So How to Be You, which is now the audio format just came out. People can listen to your delightful voice. You're doing more hyping of my brand than I am. I love it. Thank you. Yeah. How can I be careful? This is the point of the book.

No, sometimes I feel like I got to sneak in a reference to the audio book. Well, I think I'm honored that you're on the show. And I always want my guests to leave here feeling satisfied and they got their needs met and it was good experience. And so I want to celebrate you. You're so correct. In your book, how can listeners be more authentic and embrace who they are?

Something I know you talk a lot about, which is a very broad question, but like authenticity is being thrown around. You got to be real. But how I mean, it took me a long time. I mean, I think I'm pretty authentic. I mean, this is what I do. But I for younger, I don't know any age, I guess. How do we do it? Well, you know what people ask me the most is how can I be confident?

Right. That exact word. All the time. You're so confident. How can I be like you? And I always have this pause and I really take in that question because what people are seeing in me is not confidence. You know, I realized this a while ago. What you are witnessing is 100% complete, enthusiastic self-acceptance. To me, confidence is part of a binary. So you're going to be confident sometimes and not confident.

Other times, and to me, there's a different plate. There's a non-binary approach where you accept whether you feel confident or not. You just are an acceptance machine and you just accept everything about yourself. And that's what people witness in me and call confidence. That is such an interesting way to look at it. So what we're saying is when you're authentically yourself and you truly deeply accept yourself for all of your blessings and strengths and weaknesses, you're

that's the most confident thing we can do. We can show up as confidence. I think it's interesting to get that authenticity. I guess that makes sense. It is confidence because you're like, this is who I am. I'm here showing up fully as myself. And people think it's like, I have to stand up straight. I have to say these certain things to be confident, but it's not about any of that. It's really about an embodiment of who you truly are. Ooh, you got it. Yes. It's not about meeting a standard of what confidence is.

It's about that authenticity. And you know, when I went, I've done TV a few times and it's not like it's not nerve wracking to go into a studio and have the lights there and you know, everything. It's just that I know, but I seem confident or people call it that whatever, you know, whatever that means. And it's not necessarily that I feel internally confident. It's just that I know that I have my back no matter what.

No matter what happens in that TV appearance, no matter what happens on a podcast to be met another, you know, no matter what happens afterwards, I'm going to be kind with myself. Nice to myself. I'm going to have a snack. I'm going to do something I love, you know, when I enjoy myself and that makes a person comfortable. Yeah. We have to have our own backs. We have to be on our own side. We have to be in our own teams. Yeah.

Sometimes we abandon ourselves, right? You might have noticed no one else is doing it. No one's doing it for you. Or very few people. Let's put it that way. I love this. I love everything that you're talking about today, Jeffrey. Your podcast saves lives. You knew that. Changes lives, yes, but saves them as well. You are undoing shame. And shame is what holds people down the most. Yes. Yes.

It's true. And you're reaching in there to the things shame is built on, the foundations. And you're, I was about to say ripping that stuff out, but you're gentler than that. You're just challenging that stuff. And it's so deeply important. Thank you for saying that. I realize how much of sexuality is caught up in shame, why we don't fully express ourselves is because we have shame. So I'm just trying to

Help people spot it. And people can't even tell, you know, people that they're going to have sex with what they like, what they want, what they enjoy. We don't have sex. Right. This is actually what I'm working on right now in a book. This exact thing is about this area is what I'm writing and say, you know, I've been doing this for so it's like, oh, they're all.

of the ways that we hold ourselves back, we don't ask for what we need because we're shameful for that. Our partners are going to judge us for wanting something. We think we don't deserve it. We think they're going to leave us. We think they're going to feel bad about themselves. And then I'm going to feel like a bad partner because I made them feel bad by asking for something.

We have everything goes back to shame. You realize that. So that's sort of, I can't tell you more about it, but that's what it is right now. And so I love that you picked that up. Thank you. I feel, I love projects. Thank you. I know. I'll tell you why I would love to connect with you more about everything. I have to ask, you know, Jeffrey, the five quickie questions we ask all of our guests. These are just quick, whatever comes to mind. You were okay. What's your biggest turn on? Eyes.

Biggest turnoff? Toxic masculinity. What makes good sex? Communication. Something you would tell your younger self about sex and relationships? Oh my goodness. Do as much as you like and want.

Enjoy yourself. What's the number one thing you wish everyone knew about sex? You're not wrong and bad for enjoyment. Beautiful answers. And some answers you might have given. I mean, your work is so has been so impactful for me. Oh, really? Thank you. I'm so honored. I didn't. I'm so happy to be connected with you. Where can people find you, Jeffrey, and all the things you've going on right now?

Well, find me on the Instagram. You can search my name. It's J-E-F-F-R-E-Y-M-A-R-S-H. And I'm also a star on TikTok. Okay. It's all Jeffrey March.

Yeah. And I love the personal connection. So I ask people, you know, if they want to connect with me or whatever, my email is right there. It's on my website. It's on my Instagram page. You want to work together, whatever, do coaching, you email me and that starts the ball rolling. Oh my God. And where are you located?

I'm in sunny Los Angeles. Oh, okay. So am I. That's why I'm sort of backlit today. Oh, I am too in Los Angeles. Okay. We should meet. I know. I would love to meet you. I know. And I'll be totally, totally vaccinated in a few days. Okay, good. Okay. We can absolutely have a cup of tea. I would love that. But I would love to have a cup of tea. Jeffrey, thank you. This is fabulous. I love talking to you.

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