The First Stone: Cheating, shame and a series of unfortunate men
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This episode is brought to you by The Hartford, a leading provider of employee benefits and income protection products that is dedicated to standing behind U.S. workers to help them pursue their goals and get through tough times. For more information about The Hartford, visit thehartford.com slash employee benefits. We've also got a link in our show notes. This podcast is supported by FX's English Teacher.

Um, how are you?

Most people answer that question with, fine, or, but obviously it's not always fine, and it's usually not even that good. This is a podcast that asks people to be honest about their pain. To just be honest about how they really feel about the hard parts of life. And guess what? It's complicated. I'm Nora McInerney, and this is Terrible. Thanks for asking.

There's a story in the Bible that might be familiar to some of you. If you want to follow along, it's John chapter 8, verse 3. But here's a summary. The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group and said to Jesus, Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. She should be stoned according to laws. And Jesus says...

Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her. I'm telling you this because Terrible Thanks for Asking is now a Bible study. Kidding. And also because this story is significant to today's guest. Jenny grew up in the Mormon church. And like many Bible stories, she heard this one along with many others many times throughout her life.

Like a lot of religious parables and life lessons and allegories that we hear often, they don't really mean anything to you until they mean something to you. The point of that Bible passage is to show that we can't judge each other because none of us are perfect. The story also shows that most of us are ready to publicly shame and possibly stone to death someone who did something that we consider bad.

When Jenny reached out to us, the subject of her email was, I cheated. And man, did that get into group Slack fast and furious because nearly everyone knows someone who has been cheated on, who will tell you everything, every dirty little detail. But who knows a cheater who wants to confess?

Because cheaters are villains. And not just in the Bible. Coming up on this episode of Cheaters. Do you want to go and find out what he's been up to? Yeah. Come on, move. Go, go. That's a clip from one of my favorite shows of all time, extremely problematic show, Cheaters, which I still own on DVD.

Last year, the cheating scandal on Bravo's Vanderpump Rules dominated all pop culture. You want someone to just gas you up. That girl is searching for identity in men. She has no identity of her own. Willing to stoop so low as to f*** one of her best friend's life partners. I don't know how it happened. It just, it happened. Even outside of the show's usual fan base. Something got caught up.

Got caught up like that dude from Vanderpump Rules. We love to jump on a cheater. You're a worm with a mustache. If a friend called me right now and told me that their partner cheated on them, I would be furious. I would buy a billboard and put it outside of the cheater's workplace saying, I know what you did. That's how crazy I am. For many people, cheating is absolutely unforgivable, which honestly makes sense.

But if you've read or listened to any Esther Perel, if you've been a cheater, or if you've been cheated on, you know that sometimes cheating isn't simply villainous. Sometimes it's just an example of hurt people hurting people. Jenny's story is about so much more than infidelity because like all humans, Jenny's romantic relationships have taught her a lot about herself.

And in her case, as a Mormon girl from Idaho, this started at a very young age. My idea of marriage growing up was it's not an option. It's something you got to do. And once you're married, you're in it. And that's it. I think there was always an element of it doesn't matter who it is. They just have to be somebody who, I guess, wants the same things you do. That's your eternal partner. Which, when I was young and...

Naive, I guess. It felt a lot like that Disney story of, you know, you find your forever person and you're literally together forever. Beyond this life, forever creating worlds on your own. When do people in your community tend to get married? Oh, as young as possible.

As young as possible. I mean, as soon as you're 18, everybody's talking to you about, you're going to get married soon and then you're going to have kids of your own. And I mean, up to that point, it's so ingrained. Like, you're not supposed to spend more than the appropriate amount of time alone with the opposite gender. And, you know, you're not supposed to do things that are sexual at all. And then they're like, get married and have kids. Have fun. If you're supposed to get married as young as possible...

You probably need to start dating as young as possible, right? So you can meet people, get a sense of who you are, what you might need in a relationship, have some fun before you settle down. Nope. I started dating when I was 14, which is actually two years younger than you're supposed to in the Mormon religion. I got a lot of judgment for that. Lots of shame started at that age.

And I had experiences where I dated these boys who were really devoted to Mormonism and wanted to go on missions. And they went on their missions, you know, leaving me home. In that culture, they call it like, oh, you're waiting for a missionary, you know. And there's this weird superstition slash spiritual thing where it's, oh, if you're having a hard time on your mission, it's because of the sins you committed before your mission.

The first boyfriend I had, I was still in high school when he broke up with me. And his breakup was a lot more mild. It was just that he wanted to focus, which I respected. And I was only 16 at the time, so it was fine. Then I dated another guy that I was head over heels for. I mean, he was my first love. And he actually came home from his mission because he was struggling so much.

was trying to have a relationship with me, but I was trying to be a good girl. And, you know, I said, you need to go back to your mission. So go and we'll just keep writing letters and everything will carry on. You know, I'm going to college. It's fine. And then he wrote me a really, really awful letter before he went back to his mission that did blame me for everything. Blamed me for him having to come home and his distractions and his not feeling worthy. And yeah, that

really, really destroyed me. And it's one of those relationships that's haunted me in all of my relationships. I always feel like I'm doing things wrong and it's my fault that they're not reaching their potential or something. I think a lot of us have experienced this. Our early romantic relationships can really shape our idea of love going forward. So if you are cheated on or treated poorly or blamed for ruining someone's spiritual, religious mission...

In our first relationships, we start to believe that this is what relationships always look like. Nobody was talking to Jenny about what a relationship should look like, besides checking certain religious boxes. There was more emphasis on just finding a husband. So she did. I got married at 23, which is old for Mormons, believe it or not. We met at church.

The first time I met him, I actually remember meeting him the first time. And all I thought was he could be attractive, which is awful. But I was dating another person at the time. And that person also destroyed my self-esteem. So I was in a really low place. And he always made a way to be around. And then he started asking me on dates. And, you know, he...

He gave me what I needed at the time. Actually, as soon as we were engaged, things kind of changed. Like I was already scared. I confided in my bishop and I said, you know, I just have doubts. Everything in our relationship has changed since we got engaged. You know, we fight all the time and he's telling me what I can and can't do. And that doesn't feel right. And my bishop like looked me in the eye and he's like, it's just sexual tension. Once you get married and you have sex, it'll all go away. And I believed him. I believed him. So I got married.

In the LDS church, a bishop is a spiritual leader for the congregation, but he's also just a volunteer. He's not necessarily someone who is trained in any special way. And it turns out that the problems in Jenny's relationship weren't sexual tension. There were real issues in this relationship that Jenny didn't know how to deal with. One of the main things that felt bad to Jenny was how controlling the relationship felt.

Jenny says he didn't want her to go out with her friends. He wanted me there, but he didn't want to pay attention to me. He was teaching himself how to code at the time. So he would spend all day on this coding academy and then he would play his video games or whatever. And he wanted me next to him, but not to talk to or spend time with anymore. When he started working, because like I said, he was in his coding academy and then he got his job.

Then, you know, it's like any other relationship. Life kind of sets in. Again, he would be gone all day at work. I'd be gone all day at work. And when he'd come home, he'd want to be on his computer all night. And that started to get between us. Trying to set boundaries and find a way to do what each other needed just didn't happen. And a lot of the time it would end in really, really explosive, dramatic arguments where things would happen that should never happen with a couple that's in love.

What's your relationship with yourself during this marriage? How do you feel about yourself? Pretty low. I had an eating disorder that I was working through. I was going to therapy. I'd been going to therapy since before we met. And I guess I took a little bit of a break from therapy because we were happy and I felt like everything was okay. But when our arguments would turn into...

my problems and what I was doing wrong. And we all know how I take that. It's pretty heavy. I had to go back to therapy and it was dark. It was a dark time for me. So Jenny goes to her bishop again and tells him everything she just told me. And this is when the bishop says, well, maybe you have some underlying shame or sin that you need to repent for.

And then the conversation turned into telling me about your sins. So once he got into that, he then pulled out the Bible, you know, the story of the woman taken in adultery. You know, he made the point of like, he was without sin cast the first stone, which is true. And he made the point that Christ didn't judge that woman. But for some reason, I never forgot that conversation. It was such a small one, but I never forgot it. And now years later, all the experiences I've had, I'm like, maybe there was a reason I needed to hear that at that time.

Why did the bishop tell this young woman, a woman who was faithful to her husband, a story about an adulterous woman? Like Jenny said, there was a reason that moment stuck with her. It feels like the universe or God or Joseph Smith or whoever you feel looks out for us knew that one day Jenny would need to remember that she too can be forgiven for any of her sins. But at that moment, that story didn't help Jenny and her marriage.

So Jenny decides to just keep going because in Jenny's religion, you don't get divorced. You don't entertain leaving a marriage. You deal with it, but it doesn't get better. Their relationship dynamic stays unhealthy. When I'd get back from talking to the bishop and I'd feel better, he would confess to me, well, I've been looking at pornography again, which in the Mormon religion is very, very bad.

So he didn't tell me that he had issue until we were married. And then it was our problem, not his problem, right? But the problem is that his way of taking the blame and shame off of himself was telling me things like, if you were a better wife, if you were more sexy, I wouldn't need to do this. And that was not good because I already hated myself. So

I think that attitude started to show in the way he treated me in front of even my family. And that's when my family intervened and said, you're not happy. You're not yourself. You're not who you used to be. Something's wrong. And we think it's him. And that's when I think my eyes were starting to open to, I can't blame him for everything, but just open to how we weren't good for each other.

This is a huge deal for Jenny's religious family to encourage her to get divorced. And she does. And in her late 20s, becomes truly independent for the first time. When we come back, Jenny gets her groove back. ♪

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That's armoirestyle, A-R-M-O-I-R-E dot style slash thanks to get up to 50% off your first month and never worry about what to wear again. Try armoire today. You're an under 30 divorced Mormon. What is dating like? What's your dating pool? So they have singles groups.

wards that you go to. You can go to the family ward if you want and spend time with your married friends, which all deserted me when I got divorced. But of course, that was painful for me. So I started to go to more singles activities. And these are people who are over 18. It's 18 and up who are single. And I mean, the Seattle area where I was living at the time

had a decent amount of singles and it would fluctuate, you know, in the summer you'd get more because people were there for seasonal stuff. But just the hard thing is, is your, your shortcomings and your baggage is so much more obvious when you're telling you, you meet somebody and they're like, so you're 28 and you're,

You're divorced. Like, tell me about that. And it's like, that's not all I am, please. You know? After the divorce and some mediocre dating in Seattle, Jenny decides to move back to Idaho. Here, the dating community is smaller, so she tries meeting men outside of the church community. And that's how she met a guy we're going to call Dave.

So he was my age, which I hadn't dated a guy in my age in a long time. And he was like a really down to earth, sweet guy at the first. And I met him at the gym, which is something I also hadn't done before. And I liked that because, you know, we bonded over that. We both had an interest in being healthy.

Jenny spends a lot more time at her gym and pretty soon after meeting Dave becomes friends with another guy who we will call James. This is the kind of gym where you work out, but you also go to a bunch of events together. Happy hours, hangouts, fitness competitions. We met at a competition and I mean, I didn't think much of him at first. I, you know, when I first met him, I was like, he's the guy in charge. He just exuded this being in charge thing. And,

And I was just helping out and he kept coming up with excuses to get me alone and talk to me. And by the end of the competition, he's complaining about his aches and pains. And I was like, well, I stretch people for a living. I can help with that. We did a couple stretch sessions and spent the entire time laughing. And I loved that. I love a guy that can make me laugh no matter what's going on.

I used to go to the 5 a.m. workout and Dave and James would both go. And they both were still vying for my attention at the time. And to watch them take it out in the workout, they would compete the entire class. And it was hilarious to me. I was like, oh my gosh, I've never had a man do that for me. And now there's two at 5 a.m. They woke up at the latest 4.30 to be here trying to out squat each other for my heart.

This whole scenario did not end like an episode of The Bachelorette where Jenny chose one of the gym bros after careful consideration. Instead, she started to see the true colors of each guy. Dave was young, her age, and hot, and James was 11 years older. Bald, not exactly her type, but also pretty hot. Dave ended up being more very, I mean, the word I would use is douchey, but I don't know if you can use that on a podcast. No.

Oh, yeah. We've said lots of crazy shit. He really took a turn and was not the man I thought he was. And then my roommate that I was living with at the time told me that they had had a history while she was still married. And he had lied to me about a lot of things. And that's when I was like, oh, so he is not the woman empowering sweet guy I thought he was.

We went out with friends and got really drunk one night. And, you know, he's like, oh, well, I can take you home. And then he didn't take me home. And then he took advantage of the situation. And at this point, I mean, not to be crass, but I had had sex with my ex-husband, who was a virgin before I met him. And...

Then a man who was like in the army and anyway, two partners before him. And he like gave me this lecture about how I didn't know what I was doing. And I was like, no shit, I don't know what I'm doing. Also, what the fuck? Also, you don't know what you're doing because we don't know each other because we don't know each other. This is where I lose it as an interviewer. And this is where James swoops in.

Right when the bar, which has never been very high to begin with, is very, very low. The beginning of it, it was like a movie. It was very whirlwind, wild.

One of the classic, I didn't see it coming. I thought we were just friends. I didn't know there was anything more that could be possible there. He made me feel very beautiful. He made me feel very good about my body. It was like we couldn't keep our hands off each other. It was amazing. Every time. Every time he touched me. Every time he kissed me. Jenny lived in this little blissful falling in love bubble for about six weeks.

And then one night...

So that's how I found out. Damn, because you really thought that was going to be kind of a hot question. You know, you're like, yeah, and he's going to be like, no way, but someday I'm going to marry you. I mean, here I am, tits out and everything. I remember just kind of like awkwardly rolling over and curling up in the fetal position next to him and feeling so dirty, like just feeling like trash. Yeah. And like no words were spoken for what felt like, you know, an hour. Yeah.

And then I think... I don't know who broke the silence, but we ended up having a conversation about it. Like a really heartfelt, well, what the fuck? You know, why would you not tell me? I mean, that's when he really opened up. And he told me it was the first time he'd ever told me all of these things. But I don't want to vilify him, but he had cheated twice before me with women that were fully aware before they did anything, right? And both times...

I guess with the first one, he actually wanted to be with her, but felt guilty because of his daughters. They were much younger at the time. And the second one, he was ready to run away with her, and she ended up breaking his heart. And then he just became this kind of bitter shell of a man until he met me. That's the way he told the story.

Jenny thought she'd made the smart choice. An older guy, someone who seemed to worship her, someone who made her feel good about herself, someone who wasn't a douche, and someone, it turns out, who was married to another woman, a woman he had two daughters with. The movie beginning of this relationship has taken a lifetime movie turn. And now, for the first time in her life, the story of the adulterous woman in the Bible actually applies to her.

She was a woman taken in adultery, not by consent, not with her knowledge. And yet all of her internal programming is tossing stones at herself. I think we laid there and talked for a good four hours or so before I was like, all right, you have to go home now. Like, you can't sleep here.

When he leaves that night or the morning or the middle of the night, like, what do you think the status of your relationship is? I didn't know what to do. I mean, I was in complete shell shock. I had gone from being, like, this really good person who only did good things and when she did something bad, owned it and made it better.

And that was like the bottom of the barrel. I can't fix this. So I was just in complete shock for, you know, just like that. Like I had ringing in my ears, constant feeling where I'm like, I don't I don't know what I'm going to do now. I don't know who I am anymore. I just imagined her. And did she know, you know, like, did she already know? Did she have suspicions?

If she found out, I could never forgive myself, you know, and like, would I ever get the chance to talk to her in person and apologize and tell her that I didn't want to hurt her? You know, it's all of those things. But then at the same time, when he explained to me that their relationship was really not healthy and the way she treated him, I also had like a feeling of being kind of mad at her.

I told him, we can't talk. Like, you, I can't do this. I can't be that person. So please don't contact me.

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for subscribers, which is a sustainable workload for us emotionally and financially. There are still plenty of episodes here for free on the main feed, so no pressure. But if you want to join a community of Terribles, come over to Patreon. And if you just want more Terrible, join on Apple+. Jenny is heartbroken that James lied to her and tricked her into being the other woman.

And she also feels so guilty for being the other woman in his marriage. And then to really top things off, she gets a random phone call from Dave. And as a reminder, he's the other guy from the gym who turned out to be, as Jenny put it, kind of douchey and how I would put it, a total jerk. And he's like, I went to Planned Parenthood and, you know, I've got chlamydia. And I'm like, and? And?

And he's like, well, you gave it to me. And I'm like, that's absurd. Like, you're the third man I've ever slept with. Like, that is that's literally absurd. And after that, after I learned about him and all the women that he was sleeping with when we slept together, I was like, how could you possibly think it was me? Like, like, how in a billion years would you make this my fault?

Then I went from feeling like I was at the bottom of the barrel to like I was underground because then I had to call James and say, so there's a chance that I have given you something. Then the banner on my forehead was now you're a homewrecker that has given a married man an STI. So that guilt shame spiral was pretty gnarly, but I had really good friends and like my roommate was stellar.

Jenny treats her STI, but she's still infected with the shame. She gets through all of this crap with the help of her friends. She eventually tries dating again. It sucks. And after a month, James calls her.

It was six in the morning and he's like, I just left her for good. And I was like, good for you. Like, cause I was pissed at him. And also I told him that I didn't want to be the reason he left his wife. I was like, if you're going to do something that life changing, you're doing it for you. Like it's, it's not about me. He said, I just miss you in my life. I just want to be friends. And I was like, as long as you can hold a boundary, we can be friends, but I don't want to like see you alone. So it just started with, you know,

like Marco Polo messages and just text messages and just, you know, fun friend stuff. It wasn't, it wasn't anything. And then, um,

slowly that kind of morphed into like, oh, well, I happen to be by your work on my lunch break. Like, let's just pull out the tailgate and we'll eat lunch together. So, you know, little things like that that weren't a big deal. But I was I was dating a bunch of other guys just casually. And he knew that. And like, I think one night he came over, he like dropped in and I was like getting ready for a date and he could tell. And it like kind of crushed him.

And then after that, his attitude became a lot more, I'm going to win this fight. And so it was really sweet. Like he called me, it was really close to St. Patrick's Day. And he's like, meet me in the park. I just want to talk to you. And we had a really long talk and he was just like, I've been alone. I've tried dating and like, you're all I think about. You're the only person I want to be with. And that kind of, my walls just like crushed. And just like that.

James and Jenny are back together. It was so much fun. I mean, this coincided with COVID and I was going, I was starting nursing school. So I was doing online classes. He was home paid from work. So we virtually spent every moment together and we did so many fun things because we could. It was like,

Well, let's just go wander around Bed Bath & Beyond for four hours or let's drive to Wyoming and spend a couple days with your friends, you know. And so we did all sorts of things that were just like it was how you would want your start of your relationship to go where it's just easy and you can do whatever you want. It was great. Once they're really together, they start dealing with real relationship challenges.

James is going through a divorce. He has teenage daughters who are understandably not thrilled about him being in a new relationship. But he and Jenny try to win the girls over slowly and work on building a life together. A year in, it's Thanksgiving. So I was like going upstairs to get us pie and his phone's sitting there and it chimes and it's a woman's name. So I did what any, you know,

Any woman would do. Any crazy, jealous woman. And, you know, opened his phone and, like, was reading the text messages. There was nothing immediately unsettling about it. Just the fact that I didn't know who it was. I'm not a good liar. Like, I can't... There's no shield for my emotions. So he instantly knew something was wrong. And we ended up talking about it. And it was not graceful. And I was really upset. And I just, you know, basically said, well, give me your phone then. And I went through all these apps and found...

so many women that he was talking to regularly. It wasn't just a random conversation here and there. It was like consistent. He was starting a conversation daily with them. I had no idea they existed. It was on his game apps, like Words with Friends. It was on Facebook Messenger. It was Snapchat. It was. And what was most unsettling to me is that

He had gone through and deleted all the messages. So I could see he was talking to them, but he deleted all the messages so I couldn't read them. And instead of, I guess, admitting that he did something hurtful, he just got really mad and really defensive. So it was a big fight. What was your first instinct? What did you think all these messages meant? My paradigm of our relationship changed.

that I had built on finally feeling like I found a man who put me first, who felt like I was what they wanted above anything else. And I was beautiful and I felt beautiful to him. I felt like I was what he wanted. And then to see that, it just completely shattered that paradigm. And then it was, oh no, maybe I don't have big enough boobs. Maybe I am not as sexy as you say I am. Maybe I don't wear enough makeup or, you know, just like all those things that had

in small ways, nagged at me. My own insecurities were just so magnified by like, why do you need to seek out attention of other women? So many other women too, not just one. What did he say about it? And did you believe him? His constant go-to is, you know, they're just friends. They're just old friends or new friends that I made playing words with friends or whatever, you know, and

That never sat well with me. But if I tried to push back on that, it would end in a fight that just made me feel worse about myself and make us feel further apart. And that's not what I wanted. Like, that wasn't my end goal in talking about it. In talking about it, I wanted to get closer to him, not further. So I eventually just stopped talking about it. What did your relationship look like after that incident?

strained and awkward. I mean, all that sexual tension and fun was gone. Different people would react to this in different ways. Some people, faced with proof that their partner is messaging other people on apps like Words With Friends, which I didn't know people still used and definitely didn't know they used in this way, would fight. That's what I would do. Some would flee or force this person to flee, which is also what I would do. Jenny froze.

She followed James' lead and just didn't talk about it. Things stayed awkward and tense for about a year, and then Jenny's friends started planning a much-needed girls' trip. We went on a cruise. It was just the ladies, and it was a blast.

We had met a group of bachelors, like they were a bachelor party and they were just fun to hang out with. I mean, they're all like young twenties. I didn't see any threats, but like later that night, one of them just kept hanging around me and, you know, said things that I hadn't heard from James in a long time said, you know, like, you're the most beautiful girl I've seen on this boat. And like, there's typical things that I bet

I bet some logical woman right now is listening going, girl, you got had and you're right, I did. But I was kind of starved for it in a way. Like it had been a long time since I felt like somebody was looking at me that way. And just like for clarification, like...

You sleep with this dude, you make out with them. Like, what's the level of... We sort of slept together. Under the shirt, over the bra. Oh, it was... There was definite, like, sexual activity. But it was not good. Oh, God, it was not good. No. Yeah, no, it wasn't good. And I don't know. That poor guy, he seemed so nervous.

The walk of shame back to my room was just like, I what have I done? You know, I just threw away a pretty good thing. I threw away a lot of my my self-worth and my value just and that guy doesn't care about me. You know, like he really doesn't like he got what he wanted.

And I didn't get what I wanted. Like that was, and that's something that I think like a lot of women experience is we walk around like, oh, well, I gave that person, whether it's sex or whether it's a relationship or a friendship, like I gave that person what they wanted, but I didn't get what I wanted. Like, what the hell? And I'm okay with that. Or I'm not okay with that. I don't know. I came home, went back to work and tried to be normal and I just couldn't. So I found...

like three people to confide in. One person was like, only you know what to do. This is your decision. I think you just need to give it time. The other person was like, 100% don't tell him what happens on a cruise is on a cruise. Like I've done the same thing in my relationship. And then the third person was like, you have to tell him right now or it's going to eat you alive. And

Eventually, you know, after days of trying to be normal and loving and wonderful and him knowing something's wrong, because like I said, I'm a terrible liar. I was like, it is going to eat me alive. Like that third advice was right. Like it's just going to eat me alive. So he picked me up from work one day with dinner, which was like the nicest thing ever. And it just like came out of my mouth. I just said on the cruise, I slept with someone and he just like went completely silent.

And then I told him, I feel awful about it. I'm really sorry. I'm also really confused right now. And he just didn't say anything. So I stopped talking. We drove in silence. And when we got back to the house, he started packing up his stuff. And I mean, I knew deep down, I was like, yeah, he should leave. I just did a terrible thing and I just let him go. And that was really hard for me. That's the sound, not just of you cringing, but of him.

But of Jenny stoning herself again. Eventually, Jenny admitted to a few more people in her life what happened, and they all say basically the same thing. You need to get over this one mistake you've made because you've done hundreds of good things. You know, you're so much more than this. You are not a mistake. You can't label yourself as a person because you did a bad thing, you know? Yeah.

And I mean, these friends have lived lives of pain. You know, they've done bad things in their past. And they're like, if I labeled myself based on the mistake I made when I was 20, I never would have become who I am today, which was good advice. From there, I started to move into a place where I felt like I need to own what I did so that I can get past the shame, I guess.

And I don't know why I chose this way, but the way I chose is to go to my closest group of people and tell them what I did. Like people I respect, you know, like I even told my mom and nobody responded with anything.

you know, any level of negativity or judgment. Not even my mom, who is a very, very devoted Mormon to this day. They just all looked at me with love and the response was, well, what do you need? You know, what do you need to hear? What do you need to do to move past it? And a fair amount of the people I confided in told me, I've been in your shoes. I've done it too. You know, you'll get through this.

But can her relationship with James get through it? Because for two weeks, they don't talk much. One day I came home from work and he had left like a note. And he's like, I came to get some things. I want to talk on Friday. Here's a list of questions that I want you to look over. And you're going to answer all these questions if you want to consider having me back or something like that, you know? And I grabbed the list of questions and I kid you not, it was...

It was so petty. It was questions like, how many times did you have sex? Did you wear a condom? Did you like it? Did you think about me? Like so many things. Like, have you talked to him since? It was just like nauseating, you know? So I took the list to...

One of my friends at work who's a social worker and is just very balanced and level headed. And I was like, what am I supposed to do with this? And she like crumpled it up and threw it in the garbage can. And she's like, absolutely not. You are not answering any of these questions. And then we sat there for a little while and she goes, OK, OK. And she grabs the list and opens it up and she goes, well, let's look at it.

Then we went through the list and the last one, he asked the question, what could I have done to prevent this? And she was like, you can answer that question and nothing else. So Friday came around and he comes in the house all charged up and ready to get some answers. And I pulled out the list and I was like, I will answer one question on here. And he's like, okay. And

And I was like, and I don't want to be interrupted. I was like, I have a lot to say that led up to this moment for me. And he's like, fine, you get 30 seconds or whatever. And so I just launched into my rant. And let me tell you, it was a rant. And it started with the other women. You know, it started with, I'm not going to make this your fault. But so much of my self-worth and how I felt in our relationship in my comfort zone started that day.

And it has just progressed, you know. And after I did that, we yelled at each other for a decent amount of time. And then when it got to the point where I said, well, are you going to leave? Like, you've got boxes. You're obviously here to pack up. Are you going? And that's when he was like, I really don't want to go. And I was like, then talk to me. And then he, you know, said that a good reason he was so angry is because he knew it was his fault.

Like from the moment I told him, he was like, I knew it was my fault. And, you know, of course, then I was like, well, obviously it's not all your fault. It takes two people to do something like this. But he did feel guilty and shameful. So what do you do or how does your relationship start to rebuild? Well, I was very humbled by what I had done and felt like obviously I'm not the great girlfriend I thought I was.

And so I just told him, you know, this timeline is up to you. Like, I don't really feel like dating right now. So I'm just going to live my life. I'll be working. I'll be doing whatever I can. And, you know, you just tell me when you want to do stuff. You have to reach out. If you want to talk to me, you have to be the one to initiate everything. And he did. He would reach out to me at least daily. And then he started to ask me on dates. And then eventually got to the point where he was like,

It's just uncomfortable now because I want to stay at your house every night, but my clothes are somewhere else and it doesn't make sense. So I'm coming home. And I was like, all right, I think I'm ready for that. And that probably took two months, two or three months to like where he was back home. So what is the past year been like and how would you describe your relationship now? It's been so up and down. It has been so up and down. Lots of...

Every time we get an argument now, it comes up in some way. You know, I will say something about things he's done or he'll say something that leads him to say something about things I've done. It's never going to go away. It did get to the point a couple months ago where I told him I'm so unhappy that we have to do something. Like either I need out or, you know, we've got to fix how we talk because our communication is like terrible. Yeah.

And so he said, all right, let's try therapy. We did a couple sessions. It didn't really fit for him. So we're thinking about, I don't know if we're going to go back. But I mean, we'll go for like a decent month or so without fighting. And then when we have a fight, it's bad. Like it's bad enough. The most recent fight was bad enough. He moved out for a week. And, you know, that's not healthy. We all have...

the ability to move on. We all have the ability to forgive. It's there somehow. And in a really twisted way, we all have the ability to love people who have hurt us. And no matter, you know, even to this day, I mean, he and I both question for ourselves, is this still healthy? Is this still what I need? And yet when we try to take a week off, we just can't, you know, like I love him and he loves me and I don't know why.

Neither of us know why. There are some interviews, some stories where there's a palpable feeling to it, where the interview has a silent third party that isn't the producer listening in. Sometimes that's grief or anger, but in Jenny's instance, it was shame. And it was so heavy that after our interview, Claire and I talked on the phone and went for walks around our separate cities and tried to get that feeling out of our own bodies.

In the Bible, the adulterous woman at the mercy of a crowd of people ready to stone her to death could have been a married woman and could have been the other woman, but she was the one bearing all of the responsibility for something that requires two parties. James was ready to stone Jenny for what she did when he himself did it three times that he's admitted to.

And there's something about Jenny's body language and voice and face during our call that makes me feel like if I gave her a pile of rocks and the opportunity to throw them at herself, she would. And I hate that. Because when we set out to tell the story of a person who cheated, maybe we did want a villain. Maybe I did want to crack open the psyche of a person who could betray someone they loved and see how they ticked, why they did it.

And instead, I got the story of a woman who has spent her whole conscious life being psychologically stoned by the men around her. Told she's a problem for kissing boys as a teenager. That she ruined a mission. Drove a man to porn addiction. Wasn't good at sex.

And it honestly pissed me off for her. And while I would like to think of myself as somewhat impartial, somewhat neutral, the fact is I'm not. And even when I do my best to tell these stories with nuance, there are some stories where I want my own bag of stones. I just keep thinking about how the thread in all of your relationships is the relationship

with yourself when you're younger is just like someone hands you shame and just pins it to you and says, you keep this and you just bring it with you into every interaction and every relationship. I can just feel that weight, like you are wearing all of that shame like a fucking exoskeleton. Yeah.

And it was never yours. It was never yours. It was like forced upon you by a system that's like, oh, I'm sorry, are you a girl, not yet a woman? Well, let me just put you – let you live in anticipation of the male gaze being this sum of your value, but also –

a weapon that we will wield against you. You must be appealing to us, but if you are too appealing, that is your fault, not our responsibility. And just, this is a series of men shirking their own personal responsibility and putting it on your little baby shoulder so you can never fully grow. And it's fucking gross and it never should have happened to you. And I'm sorry. Yeah.

What is your relationship with yourself right now? I, that's hard to put into words. I feel like it's turned into a lot of pep talks because, well, almost every time I meet somebody who's like telling me they made a mistake or something now, I'm listening to them. I'm being there for them. But in my head, there's this voice that's like, you're so much worse than that person because you've done all of these other things, you know? Yeah.

So on the bright side, it's made me a really nonjudgmental person. But on the other hand, there's just this constant side of me, which I think comes from my background of Mormonism that is telling me I am never going to be good enough. Like, I'm never going to deserve. Sorry. I'm never going to deserve what, like, I think a healthy, good relationship looks like. Yeah.

And that's really sad, but I think it's a process too. You do deserve that though. Like you deserve a relationship that feels regenerating and safe and fulfilling and exciting at first and then wonderfully boring for the rest of it. You know, like you really do. You deserve that. And you deserve that no matter what. Like I think that...

Some faith systems are really good at making us believe that we are inherently bad and that we have to earn good things that are really our birthright. Like you deserve to be loved and you deserve to have your love received fully by somebody else. And wherever and however that happens, I just hope you know that

I wish that for you with all of my heart, and I hope you get it. Thank you, Nora. And thank you, Jenny. This is a brave thing to do, and I hope you love yourself because you really are worth it. This episode was produced by Claire McInerney. It was a doozy. It was a doozy to do this. I bet you feel that too, listener.

It was a lot. It was mixed by Marcel Malikibu. The rest of our team is Megan Palmer, Michelle Planton, and Grace Berry. A lot of you sat in on this episode, on an early version of this, on our Patreon. Sarah Quinn gave us the title for this episode. Thank you, Sarah. Thank you to everyone who showed up and listened to this.

If you are a fan of our show, if you are looking to support independent podcasting, we have bonus content on Apple Plus and in our Patreon. Patrons get bonus episodes, monthly office hours, access to our back catalog, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

that catalog of episodes arranged by topic, which is really popular. And sometimes we do table reads of episodes where we walk you through how we're making an episode and work on the script in real time. We are a production of Feelings & Co. You can check out everything that we do at feelingsand.co.

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