Deep Dive
Shownotes Transcript
What's up, everybody? Welcome to the show. I'm Justin. You can always reach us at thehonestdrink at gmail.com, Instagram, or WeChat. Details are in the description. And of course, if you've been enjoying this podcast, go ahead, rate, comment, and subscribe.
My guest today is an entrepreneur. He's a super ambitious guy and he's the CEO of the number one LinkedIn marketing agency called Genius and Sell. I love their approach to marketing because they just focus on one thing, which is LinkedIn and do that one thing the best.
It was a pleasure talking to him and it was very interesting to explore his mindset. I feel he's a very eccentric person and he doesn't really think in conventional ways. Now, if you're assuming this conversation is just about LinkedIn and marketing, you're wrong. And oh boy, we explored a ton of different ideas and really went down a rabbit hole on this one. The more I spoke with him, the more I enjoyed the conversation. So without further ado, please welcome Julian Sicard.
Oh,
well here let's cheers first yeah cheers to you thank you for being here julian yeah thank you for enlightening me uh we're drinking the lefroy quarter cask yeah really good right you like the pd stuff right yeah smoky yeah it's good stuff you know i have to say because i think it's interesting talking to you
Because number one, obviously, you're very well known on LinkedIn and the work you do. You run the largest LinkedIn community in China. Yeah, correct. It's fascinating because coming from the States, for me, when I grew up in the States, LinkedIn was not viewed as like a social platform.
And hardly anyone even really used it. It was more like just I'll put my CV, I'll put my resume. It was a digital resume basically just to have on there. But no one was really interacting on it and no one was really using it for the most part in my experience growing up in the States. But then I come to China. And so I didn't use LinkedIn for a very long time. But then I come to China and
And over time, I realized I went back to LinkedIn just maybe a year ago, actually. I started using it again. And I realized, whoa, it's completely different here. And in Europe and other parts of the world, LinkedIn is a really bustling and really busy social platform.
social platform as well. A lot of people are engaging with each other, a lot of people are sharing articles, having discussions back and forth, you're creating your network. And I found that to be really interesting and really great. It's been a great resource for me. - Yeah, definitely. And plus, well, again, we have to come back from the evolution of different social medias. LinkedIn, it's very recently that is a platform for content creator.
It has never been really well the case before and now they really encourage through the algorithm to again create content and better content. And we are getting to that point that okay, even through the video or the advertising, recently they push a lot through LinkedIn in advertising, you see the quality of the content really increase recently. And yeah, talking about the
uniqueness of LinkedIn in China, well, which is unique. It's the only Western social media that is allowed. You don't need to have any VPN. So... That is true. It's the only Western... Yeah. It's the only Western social media that is not blocked here. Correct. And LinkedIn is again, the bridge between China and the rest of the world. That's why it's very amazing. When you arrive
Some like me, you know, a few years ago, I didn't know anyone. I built literally my network here because of LinkedIn. So, yeah, that's an incredible resource. That's for sure. But why do you think the LinkedIn is the only one that's not blocked? Like, what's the reason for that? Like, what's different about LinkedIn, you think, that it is allowed here versus, you know, everything else that's blocked? Yeah.
Well, again, not going too much into politics, but LinkedIn is owned by Microsoft and Microsoft has a pretty good relationship with the Chinese government, I would say. So I think it's one of the biggest advantages. And also because they comply with, okay, I think about the data and everything, where Facebook, Instagram, I mean,
There was no necessity because it's controlled by American company, right? And again, the Chinese government want to protect the data of, that's the reason that is advanced for not allowing the social media. But, well, it's smart. I think they played it smart on that, on the last decade to really encourage like local actors such as WeChat or Weibo or Douyin
to really develop and yeah, it's unique. I mean, that's what brings really the possibility to create this Chinese digital ecosystem. But LinkedIn again, it's related to business. So of course, if it can serve the purpose of Chinese company to make
more money with companies abroad. I mean, yeah. Why they would be against that? Yeah. Especially if the data are still in China, right? Yeah, I think that's the key point. Like, Microsoft plays ball here and does very well here and has a really great relationship. Yeah, I forgot LinkedIn was owned by Microsoft. Yeah. Yeah, but that's true. But do you see on LinkedIn, like...
I still see not as many, I think, locals use it as much as Western people or international expats. - Yeah, correct. What is particular in the audience of LinkedIn in China, it's mainly high executive, but they speak fluently English. So it's not for all the Chinese and in any way it's not part of the strategy of LinkedIn China.
I got regular meeting with CEO of LinkedIn in China, Tianlu. And well, for them, they want to position really-- well, it's already huge in terms of user base. It's already 60 million users. MARK MANDEL: 16? FRANCESC CAMPOY: 60. MARK MANDEL: 60. 6-0? FRANCESC CAMPOY: 60 million. MARK MANDEL: 60 million users in China? FRANCESC CAMPOY: Yeah, in China. MARK MANDEL: Wow. FRANCESC CAMPOY: So meaning that's a third country in terms of user, and it keeps expanding.
But really the strategy of LinkedIn in China is to be a platform, to be the bridge and help the Chinese companies to make more sales abroad. Not necessarily for the internal market. That's not part of the strategy. The company is a target. It's...
Chinese companies that have an objective to really extend worldwide outside of China or international company here in China that have a necessity to use LinkedIn. So you're the CEO, also founder of Genius and Cell, right? So what's your mission with that? Well, since 2015, we are the number one LinkedIn marketing agency.
And the differentiation where other digital marketing agencies pretend to know everything and all social media, well, I don't believe that. We know marketing anyway, it's a lot of smoke and mirrors.
But our team wake up, hits and leave and sleep LinkedIn. We only specialize on LinkedIn. So meaning we take over the account of the client running the campaign. We target the right leads, deliver the right sequence of messages, creating a lot of content. So I mean, like the marketing department of Fortune 500, many companies and makes billion of money.
dollars a year they outsource to us and we work with the marketing department for the different campaigns we run. So yeah, giving an example of kind of campaign we deliver recently, one of the company we work with,
developed this new kind of waterproof screen for the next generation of smartphones. And part of the mission was to target the VP or product manager at Samsung, Apple, to get a deal close. And that's a very long negotiation. So we find these people and then
Once the lead is warm enough, then that's going to be the sales director who's going to take over the conversation or meet that key person. So we really do the first part. Then, okay, it's part of the sales team to close the deal. So you're connecting people.
- Yes, but in a smart way. I mean, in this world that is changing, people, they don't know really how to prospect online. I'm really impressed. Even marketing director of this multi-billion dollar company,
At the end of the day, you know what, just in there, just employees so they cannot really think the same way we think because we test different processes and then we apply these different processes. I mean, it's a lot of practice. You cannot reach the same level of results the same way we do because, I mean, it's a lot of experimentation to know, okay, what is working. And that's the point. The main issue right now is
with people that call themselves "marketing experts", they are not practitioners. That's the main problem. That has been really hard choice. For sure we could do SEO, we could do a lot of things. I could give you a self-speech that,
you're gonna have the best result but that's not true. I mean, I don't have the pretension to be an Instagram expert because it's not the case. So that's why our positioning is kind of unique. We are just positioned on this social media platform and I think there's a future anyway of the social media marketing agency where the owner need to be the incarnations. That's why anyway you're gonna see me
posting a lot of content because people want practitioner and you need to be a practitioner, you know? Otherwise, how could you deliver results for your clients? And yeah, and that's why my generation, you know,
I'm only 28 years old, but the thing is, sometimes some people don't really believe in my credibility because I'm young. I'm very smart, I'm not gonna lie, and that impresses these people because that's part of this new generation that was... I'm born in 1992, meaning like, okay,
at 10 years old I really began to discover the internet. So you know, I mean like I'm really in this kind of compromise
I leave my childhood without the internet and then okay I began to be a teenager with the internet. So in your before your teens you didn't have internet? Yeah yeah yeah correct correct. Just because of where you lived they didn't have internet there? Well it was a choice of my parents you know they didn't want like we get addiction and all this thing. They didn't want to corrupt you with the internet. Yeah
- Correct, and I think it was a chance. And that's why, anyway, my generation, and there is a lot of
very talented people. I mean, one of my friend is running the number on Instagram agency in France. Yeah, we're going to take over the markets. They're just simple. And that's why, I mean, like the people running digital marketing agency between 40 to 50 years old, they are over, they have no clue on what they are doing. So it is just a fact, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Well, I love your approach because there are so many quote unquote marketing agencies out here, right? And, and,
And they all claim to kind of know it all and have all the resources and to help you. And as they should, because, you know, obviously they're a business. But they spread themselves really wide. Whereas where like, you know, they'll say they have everything covered. Yeah. But I love your approach where you're like, no, that's not really realistic. So you specialize in one thing and you do that one thing the best. Like,
Like that's a really great approach from, at least from a consumer perspective like me, like when I hear like a marketing agency, right? Like, cause you're so specialized. And when you really think about it, like that's really the only kind of way to do it, I guess. I mean-
A lot of marketing agents, how can you be like really great and knowledgeable on all these things? - Yeah. - Well, I guess some marketing agents have a really big team, so maybe they can do it. I don't know. But I understand what you're saying though, where a lot of it is smoke and mirrors. And after the sales pitch, the actual performance is like very, very mediocre. Like you could have almost done it on your own. Yeah.
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So what makes you guys, besides that though, for your clients, like what is the real value that you guys bring for them, for your clients through LinkedIn? Because why, if it's a client,
if it's a Fortune 500 company, right? They have a lot of resources themselves. Why can't they just have their own people go on LinkedIn and try to do the work and find clients and find leads? What do you provide to them that they can't do on their own? - The experience and the process. - So what do you mean by that, Do?
Meaning there is a certain way to approach people. There is a wording. There is a way also to target people. There is a way to grab the attention on the people on LinkedIn that you don't do the same way on Instagram. And the main issue is in this big marketing department, they don't know how to do it. It's simple because, again,
Take just the point that, okay, in average, it's not true for every social media, but in average, okay, the algorithm changes every three months. So they have no clue. Meaning you need really to follow up on what are the changing. And so that's... The LinkedIn algorithm. Or any other social media. So I mean, like, it's a full-time job dedicated and they don't have necessary...
a team for doing that. That's why they need to outsource and that's the future anyway. And for the value, well, it's simple. I mean, here is the thing. I think people are not aware of that. But 2021, we're going to live the worst economic depression. Take a step back. Who are the companies that survive?
In China, they are the ones that, okay, we're already in this digital transition. What we are living right now, it's really a digital renaissance. Meaning like, okay, everything getting online. And the way to close the deal or a contract, it's through Zoom meeting and that's it. That's the way it works.
And you know, some people are still in this kind of fake expectation that, okay, everything will get back to normal. But this is not true. The thing is, like, millions of people are going to lose their job. You're going to have civil war all over the world. People are also going to starve.
I mean, it's not that the worst is coming. It's just we are re-adapting to a new world. And there is nothing good or bad about that. It's just the way it is. And I think in that, it's also an opportunity because, you know, from day one, our company, all our employees work remotely. And my vision of work was, okay,
That's not fair for people to being stressed, taking the metro. I mean, see, people around you, they're over-stressed. This is not normal. And when they work from home, they are way more productive. They can take care of their kids. I mean, it's way better. It's really a chance. What we are living right now, it's really a chance. But again, adapting to this lifestyle, this way of working, it's also a challenge.
Because working from home is not holidays, whatever you say. Yeah, it does not shield, but meaning you need to have a strong mindset. There is every time distractions such as your smartphone. You need to be more disciplined, I guess. Yeah, correct. And that's why, I mean, like people we take into our team, we know it's people that have this strong self-discipline, that have integrity and respect. It's totally possible and achievable because we have the proof of that. Anyway...
But, yeah. So in your company, do you guys, do you,
run and manage your company, everyone works remotely? Correct. So there's no centralized place that everyone has to go to. It's centralized, but virtually through a private server. Okay, so it's all centralized online. Yeah, correct. Meaning everyone manages their own agendas and you have a bot that automatically, our pair, will tell you, hey Eric, you have to do this task. Please check the green emoji when it's done.
like that I can control, my business partner can control and that's it. Was it like that before COVID? Or was that a change you guys made? It accelerated about the processes of internal organization, meaning like, okay, the only value you cannot buy is time. And I was like, okay, how I can create more automation? Well, I'm a little bit of geek and nerd.
And I was like, okay, I'm going to create a bot. And it's what I did. You create a bot? Yeah, a bot that our pair are going to tell you, okay, that's the task you need to do. Yeah. And it's super efficient. So it's like an assistant. The bot is almost like an intern or something like that. Yeah, correct. But, I mean, it's a robot. It doesn't really exist. Well, we gave a cute face of panda. It's called Billy the Panda. Yeah.
But yeah, I mean like, yeah, it's every time I think it's challenging in the internal organization, how you can still make people excited because I mean like, okay, you don't see people physically. So I mean like, yeah.
You need also to create this gamification. So for example in the server we have a channel where okay there is a kind of competition between the team members for bringing a lot of people registering or bringing you know new call for the client and they receive already super fast
some notification saying, wow, congrats Eric, you bring a new lead to this client. And then you have a cool gif of TG Khaled, you know, saying another one. Yeah. Like the gamification part. Like I almost talked about a gamification before, like that can be, that idea can be implemented into almost a lot of things we do. And it's like kind of a reward system and it's makes it fun. Right.
Do you involve points at all? If someone brings in a client, do they get points for it and they can redeem those points somehow or anything like that? Well, my strategy is actually very simple. Every four months I'm doing a check-in on each team member and depending on their result, you can see that pretty fast, right? Or the ways they are dedicated, then I just increase their income.
Because again, like the cost of acquisition of a great talent
I mean, I'm not going to lie. A lot of people have this mindset of slave as employee. For me, it's not what I want. The name of the company is Genius & Sell. There is no dumb people in my company. It's only smart people and people that want to evolve. And again, I think if we really have the average of the five people around us, of course, in my team, I don't...
I don't want to have a lot of performers or people who care that won't be at the same level of intelligence like me. My vision about the world is generally like that. For me, it's not being arrogant.
But I think it's just being rational. Things need to be said. 99% of people around you, I think you're a smart guy. Well, we're going to see when we will drink more whiskey. The more time you spend with me, the more you'll realize that I'm not. Yeah. And here are the things, you know, like the sad reality of this world is we are surrounded by dumb people. And I don't want my company, I get affected, you know.
As I say, I don't coach individual. You know, it's like a football coach. I coach a team. So imagine if I bring a love performer, I mean, the energy of the other people would get really down. So I cannot afford that. That's why the process of selection of the people that...
that will enter in the company is super, super important. And that's one of the main points as a CEO that you need to be sure. Who really...
who you really bring into your house. So what is your process though? Because how are you sure? Because this kind of ties into the idea, which I also want to talk to you about, was the idea of resumes, right? CVs, because obviously LinkedIn in its early days was founded on the idea of people posting their resumes, right? But
I mean, in my experience, every resume is a little bit fake, right? Every resume is, there's some embellishment there, you know, everyone, and it's natural, everyone does, everyone wants to make themselves look the best. And on top of that, you can only tell so much from a resume. You know, I've had to hire people before myself too. Yeah.
And when you look at a resume, you can look great, but you don't really know. You can't really tell how really good this or how motivated or how smart or how competent this person is just based off of their resume. So what's your process? Yeah, correct. And it's a very great question, Justin. And you're very lucky because I will share with you with no bullshit on my entire process. It's very simple. First, you create a type form. Okay.
a form with 20 questions to really filter. Like, okay, let's say I want to hire a copywriter. Who are your three top copywriters? I mean, where you get the inspiration.
For me, I can tell. Naypa tell is my favorite one. If someone replies it, I'm like, okay, we're going to be on the same page. I already like you, you know. And then, of course, the portfolio, okay, can you show me example, et cetera, et cetera. And then with all these variables, depending on the question,
It goes automatically on a Google Sheet, so I have an overview of all the applicants. And then, that's simple. Orange color, it's about, okay, you go on step two, which is an interview of 30 minutes. And then if you are red, I mean, it's over. I mean, you didn't pass the step one, which is the form. So step two is the interview. The interview, well, we set up the room.
explain okay the interview is going to be like that step one i'm going to introduce the company and what we expect step two you're gonna tell us what is your background and why you think you're gonna bring value into this company and step three of course we're gonna have some questions for you and i hope this is gonna be the same for you um so yeah so first i introduce the company what is the value what is the responsibility of the mission and also
about our core values such as respect and integrity and all these things and the fact that we don't take any dumb people and that we want people that think long term etc. Because anyway if you deliver we're gonna be very very generous with you. Then step two, okay the guy gonna talk and step three depending on
on the specification, okay, do you master this software, this software? Okay, and then we close the interview by saying, okay, we're going to hear from us, and you should activate the notification of your email, because no matter what, if you receive the email, you have 24 hours to complete the first test. So like that, I can filter with the motivation and say, okay, you didn't complete the test in under 24 hours,
I don't mind. We still have study other applicants. That's it. But you know, just to form with a lot of question, you disqualify, you know, the lazy people and all this thing. - So you actually have like little tests within the tests. Just like the timing and how fast they reply. - Correct. - I mean, these are kind of hidden tests within the test itself. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then we do, yeah, two practical tests. And after that, there is a final interview.
And after all, they send the contract and they are in four months probation. Exactly. Keep a certain level of pressure and understand, okay, they better perform. Yeah. That's it. But yeah. But again, like what we want is not people that execute blindly, but also...
As I mentioned, I get really inspired by Ray Kroc and McDonald's. Again, it's in the processes and in the capacity of all the members to create the most simple processes that the work is going to be, again, executed faster. From what I want, and it's simple, it's really...
I don't want people to spend their time in walking. You have a private life, you maybe have a girlfriend. I want you to enjoy your personal life, right? Because if you are good in your personal life, if you are good, I'm good. That's it. 00:25:00 WK: Well, if the personal life is healthy and stable, that enhances their work. 00:25:04 SJ: Yeah. So the idea is not really okay they have to spend until...
midnight or 1am there on their walk, you know, I really want just, yes, they have to say, they be efficient. That's it. Yeah. Well, I think I think that's a pretty good mindset. And yeah, like you, I mean, you
You have your way of filtering people. So you created a system and your own system of kind of how do you filter through these people? Because that's really important. At the end of the day, that's all you can do is filter people through your own criteria. And your criteria is your criteria. There's no right or wrong with it. It's just what you feel is best for your company and your business.
Correct. I want to bring it back a little bit to something that you mentioned before, though, because I was very curious about it in terms of how you said that, obviously, companies and agencies and whatever going digital...
is the new thing. And it's been the new thing except COVID has just accelerated that very quickly. But I want to hear from your experience because before COVID hit, you guys were not so much just completely working remotely together, right? You guys were more like you had an offline office. - No, no, no, no. We always work.
- So you were always working remotely? - Yeah, so you didn't change anything. - Okay, because I wanted to ask you what you felt was the difference in terms of the efficiency, productivity, morale, everything between offline work and working remotely. - Well, as a CEO, that was maybe one of the biggest, well, not a mistake because there was necessary rights.
I was spending my day like crazy driving my scooter all over Shanghai from one client meeting to another. So I was not alive. So meaning, you know, at the end of the day, when you waste all this time,
Normally the meeting is supposed to be, I don't know, 40, 45 minutes and you waste your time. So if your team needs you to be there, you cannot be there for you. I mean, you waste your time. And that was one of the main problems. It's a kind of illusion when you think, okay,
"Yeah, I'm going to sign more deals just that way by seeing the potential client offline or trying to keep the Guangxi relationship like that for meeting with the current client." Now what we changed because of COVID-19, it's really, okay, if the client is in Shanghai, it's not always the case.
There's going to have one offline meeting when we sign the contract, the mid-term contract and at the end of the contract when we explain everything and here we see it's a good fit, we sign again for another contract. That's the main thing that really changed. And for people, again, that want to be our client, it's the same process for being our employee.
you need to apply for Genuisance Cell. I don't chase after people, because anyway we are the number one.
Or Louis Vuitton, that's the same thing. Do you think Louis Vuitton, they do a discount? They never do discount. So, that is the same thing. If you really want to be our client, well, it's simple. I won't waste my time for consulting call through Zoom. First, you're gonna apply. I want to see, okay, if you know your target. I want to know what is your objective for linking in what you really want to achieve. And with all this element of answer,
you can see if that person can qualify for a consulting call and then we bring them into a consulting call. But yeah, what mainly changed is not wasting this time, this precious time to go to meet with a potential client. And again, the implementation of processes. Not everyone's going to be your client and that's okay.
I mean, we want to work with people at the same level of energy like us that are clear in their mind and, of course, with a certain budget. Otherwise, I mean, yeah, that's the way it works. So, yeah, pretty simple. You seem very...
You seem very protective of your time, right? I can tell that from you and the way you talk and the way you behave. You're definitely very protective of your time. In an earlier episode, I had a guest, Maria Pastorelli, and she is also very protective of her time. And she had some interesting thoughts on our relationship with time. What is your philosophy or do you have a philosophy when it comes to time management, things like that, being productive? Yeah.
It's through the processes you can protect your time. If you don't select people into your life or your client or your employee, of course, you're going to waste your time. The idea is really to optimize the time. So, yeah, of course, sometimes you need some improvisation in life. But, you know, at the end of the day, we're all going to die and
I have great ambition, not necessarily for my life but for humanity. And there's the same thing with Elon Musk. You think like, you know, I do agree when he say, okay, one of his employees just become a father and
And the guy just missed the work because he wanted to see his baby. And Elon Musk fires that guy. Okay, that sounds radical, but what I learned is not doing any compromise. People who are really successful are people who are radical. Because if you do compromise, meaning you are not sure on what you are doing. For me, I'm pretty sure. That's why...
I trust in my processes. I trust that these processes are going to protect my time and attract necessarily the right people into my life. And yeah, to come back about Elon Musk, of course the guy needs to protect his time. See what he achieved already? He brings a revolution in everything with PayPal for online payment.
with a car, with Tesla, it's just like incredible. And of course SpaceX, he has a true vision for humanity, which is to bring humanity into Mars. Because tomorrow, can you see the way we try to manage a pandemic? We are not capable of that. So what's going to happen if tomorrow there is an asteroid coming on planet Earth? Of course the guy needs to be radical.
And you know what? It's maybe actually the guy honours with most compassion. People judge him on the first appearance. Oh, he fired that employee because he just became a father. But no, I mean, if there's something like I explained to you, if your employee don't share the vision, I mean, they shouldn't stay. Yeah.
No one for them, you know? I mean, if you are just there, okay, to have your income and surviving because, okay, we bring you an income, there is no point. And that's why if you really have ambition or having a clear vision,
Again, there is too much distraction and I encourage people how to take a step back because there is a lot of things you think it's important but actually it's not important. And time, of course, is relative. Well, I won't do all the debate about the time relativity of Albert Einstein, but in this 3D dimension, time is...
well, it's real, but actually time doesn't really, really exist. 'Cause when you, I think you had this feeling, when you do what you really like, time flies super fast. And when you do something boring, time is really, really, really slow. So again,
there is a relativity in the time, right? - No, there definitely is. Whether it's objective or subjective, it doesn't really matter because you're experiencing it, right? You're experiencing it and whether it's really happening or it's just your experience, I mean, it doesn't really matter. Time is definitely relative. And I think that's a great principle in terms of
having, being motivated and always enjoying what you do. Yeah. Because it helps that, it makes that time so much more enjoyable. Yeah. And at the end of the day, that's all we have in this life is time in this life. That's all we have, right? Yeah.
But you definitely seem a little more radical on that aspect. And you seem like you're a very structured person. You have to have everything structured. You have to work within systems. There's a protocol and there's steps to everything that you do. So you seem like a very structured person. You mentioned about your employees and if you get the feeling that they're not
100% aligned with the goals that you have, then they're out of the company. But going back to that case where you said you fired a guy who just became a father, what was it about his case that made you feel like he just wasn't
he wasn't there to help the company anymore. Was it just because he wouldn't be able to have the time to be there? - It's not me, it was Elon Musk actually that did that. - It was a what? - Elon Musk, the CEO. - Oh, I thought you were talking about you. - No, no, no. - Oh, okay. - So yeah, no, and again,
The ambition of Elon Musk is very clear. He wants to save the humanity from a potential danger by making us as a multi-planetary space, which is a very noble cause. And this is why, if you don't have people inside SpaceX that share the same mindset,
or giving an excuse, "Oh, I just become a father." So anything can become an excuse, right? See what I mean? - I feel like when he's doing what he's doing, right? And you can adopt this mentality to anything, but I think he's like operating on a mentality of like, there's zero room for error here. Because what we're trying to achieve is so much bigger than us. - So for me, that's exactly the same thing. If you tell me, "Oh, the weather is not good. My internet connection doesn't work."
At home. Is it my fucking problem? Of course it's not my fucking problem. You have friends, there is plenty of coffee in the city. You're going to figure it out. Because every day when we are waking up, we have a mission. It's to bring the trust on making business through the online. And directly, everything you do, it's not only managing LinkedIn. I can see far beyond. We save employment online.
You think when that company cross a $150 million contract with Samsung, indirectly we didn't impact the lives of thousands of people? Of course yes. Of course we save a shit ton of employment. I won't save humanity, you know, because I know what's going to come in the next coming months, but I contribute the best that I can. And I think that's the main point. It's really...
What is your vision on what you are doing? At the moment for me, it's really these two main things. Saving the appointment because people anyway, there will be an astronomical gap. Can you imagine? Because the work environment of tomorrow is going to be through freelancer. There will have no more
security, call and code security because I mean an employment is never a security itself but all these people oh my god can you imagine seeing this environment changing and they won't be able to readapt into their environment so I know the transition is going to be hard for a lot of people so that's why I mean like the jobs that we can save the trust that we can uh uh
globalisation was not perfect, let's be honest on that one. But I mean,
if we are really objective, it's because of the globalization that right now we are here. Come on, you are Hong Kongers, live in the US, then now, okay, you are living in China. And it's the same thing for me, you know? Like, I had an incredible stories. I mean, like, I live in Brazil in a favela, was the only white guy and I'm in the middle of this fucking favela. - How old were you when you were living in the favelas? - 21 years old, yeah. - Why were you there?
I was doing my exchange students. Oh, exchange students. So you chose to live in the favelas? Yeah, correct. It was my vision very young. I mean,
So you just wanted that experience, that life experience. Correct. And you were the only white guy there. You didn't speak any Portuguese or anything. Well, after I improved, because of course no one there was really speaking in English. But again, it's about adaptability. I mean, this world is so wonderful, just in terms of... I mean, like, I live so many different kind of...
experiences from living, yeah, in the favelas and working as a French embassy and living the dream, quote unquote, of what I was supposed to be a diplomat. But then I figured out, you know, politics was not for me. Like it's smoke and mirror. So I chose another smoke and mirror, which is marketing. From one smoke and mirror. But there is overlap there, I guess, in terms of mindset. So your original plan was to go into politics?
Yeah, because, well, my school is actually the school of the French president and everything. I mean, yeah, you are supposed to, you know, work for the administration and all these things. But, yeah,
Taking a step back, I was like, there is no real impact. And it's only through entrepreneurship. And it's challenging, let's be honest, that, okay, I could have a positive impact. So first, I began with an education agency. I was helping Korean and Chinese students. I want to apply for the best school in France.
well, students don't bring money. My first mentor that actually was a former CEO of Hyundai told me that, yeah, Julian, you should change your idea. But, you know, I was really stubborn and just continued then on during two years. I was surviving, so, I mean, at least I didn't lose any money. But when you bring, I mean, when you create your first company, I mean, let's be honest, it's never really a success or it's called a miracle. That's my point of view. And then what I did
Do I did? Well, I created a lot of e-commerce websites. Yeah, I was running a lot of e-commerce websites. So it was good money, let's be honest. Especially at the time, Facebook advertising was nothing. So it was pretty easy. And then, okay, I was like, anyway, LinkedIn really changed my life. I met the former CEO of Hyundai.
Because of LinkedIn, I was in $30,000 USD in debt. I was really in trouble. But because of him and his advices, I succeeded to pay off my debt, get enough clients in three months to refund everything. So I was like, yeah, I figured it out. I cracked the code how to get clients. So I should bring that experience into the table, right? Yeah.
- So how old were you when you were $30,000 in debt? - 23 years old. - 23 years old. And this debt was just accumulated from before? - Yeah, from studies. - Student loans, things like that? - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - Oh, okay. And so now you're completely debt-free, I would assume. - Yeah, financially independent, those things, you know? I mean, yeah. - So how long did it take you to get out of debt?
Yeah, I mean, well, in three months, I succeeded to have enough clients, literally because of LinkedIn. So in three months, you what? In three months, I had enough clients and contract to pay off my debt. Oh, just through LinkedIn. Yeah. Wow, okay. For free. And this was the beginning when you just started Genius Enso? Or is this a different company? Yeah, correct. I mean, that brings really the foundation of everything. Yeah, yeah.
And well, at the very beginning, I came back here in China because it was more related to my first company. But then because of a common friend, when I met with my business partner, she's from Silicon Valley. And it was the same for her. She begins this movement of LinkedIn local and so.
And directly after the first meeting I was like: "Wow, we are so complementary. You know what? You are eight years older than me. I think there is a true complementary. You have more maturity. I'm a little bit more into execution."
I really think we should create this agency. Now it's five years and it's working more than fine. But anyway, we have other projects into the pipeline. First, we focus on one business to really bring the financial security and financial stability. But yeah, there is plenty of things I would like to develop. I want to contribute. That's a long-term plan.
But the conquest of Mars cannot be only done by Elon Musk. And for terraforming the planet, we need the brightest brain. And I really think that's part of my destiny to be part of that. So I think Elon Musk is going to be the catalyzer of all of this. And we can really...
be part of this incredible adventure because we need to do that. And genetic also, it's something that I think it's very, very interesting. I mean, like genetics. Yeah. I think the genetic, you know, you can reverse literally, I don't know, like kind of brain injury or. Are you into stem cell, stem cell research?
- Oh, sorry, what it is? - Stem cell, well, I don't really know too much about it, but I know that's a really hot topic in terms of recovering anti-aging and recovering from injury is stem cells. It's not legal in the US, but it's legal in parts of South America, maybe some in Asia, I'm not sure, but I didn't know, I was just asking a question if you were into that kind of stuff.
Well again, by playing with the genetics you can reverse some disease and it's again because humanity is so disconnected. I mean look around you, it's what we talked before beginning this recording, people are just disconnected and it's just incredible and that's why
actually there is so many stress and disease is because you create your own reality and people are totally unaware of that. So I think yeah, for DNA indeed or kind of alternative things, you know, a lot of people do meditation
And I say, yeah, you know, I mean, like you can be a monk during 30 years old and trying to find, okay, the right answer. But if you do a ayahuasca ceremony, I mean, in just one ceremony, you're going to be aware of everything. Have you tried ayahuasca? Yeah, correct. How many times did you try it? Well, twice. And that's a fascinating, really, experience. Yeah.
I'm going to be trying ayahuasca soon as well for my first time. I haven't tried it, but I've read so much about it. So I want to get, we weren't planning to talk about this, but I want to get your experience of ayahuasca because I'm extremely fascinated by it. And I feel for most people, for most average people, when it comes to a lot of these plant medicines or more psychedelic kind of,
drugs or medication, I guess you can say. There's a lot of stigma around it. There's a lot of confusion around it. There's a lot of mysticism around it. So I really want to understand from your experience, how was your ayahuasca experiences and how
Has it helped you? And if it has, how has it helped you? Yeah, yeah. Well, maybe can we have a second? We need a lot more alcohol for that conversation. But I'm excited to talk about it. Yeah, yeah. I'm really interested in that. Super excited. This is really amazing. Thank you, Justin. This is great. Well, here, let's cheers before we go. Yeah, of course. Definitely, Justin. Okay, cheers. So, yeah. Yeah.
Well, I was really interested by the work of Terence McKenna that was really the first one to bring that into the table. And yeah, of course, psychedelic. Again, the states, what is good for you or what won't make you a shipper? They say, okay. Make you a what? A ship of the society. Meaning like, okay, someone that can be manipulated, right?
They will say, "It's not allowed. It's not allowed, it's dangerous." Well, again, don't you think putting roundup is dangerous? No? It's not a problem, apparently, for the state. Roundup, you know, like when you cultivate plants, you know, like any modified genetically as a food, et cetera, et cetera.
And that's the kind of hypocrisy of our modern society. Because, I mean, it's many, many centuries that, okay, this plant was there, and especially in South America, and there was a purpose beyond that. I mean, again, the Earth...
has this incredible capacity to, I have to say, balance everything. And of course, if there is this plant, they live. There is DNA inside. So of course, like, yeah, it's for the good of humanity and all the species. That's pretty much it. So talking about Ayahuasca, well, the way I discovered it, it was because of Brian Rose and the podcast London Real. He did really this...
incredible documentary called "Reconnax" and at the beginning, well, I did some experimentation on drugs but I was like "Yeah, this is gonna be a shit thing like MDMA or something like that, you know?" And then I was like "Okay, well, talking the truth, that documentary really convinced me." And I was like, "I'm in a point of my life, I need to take
the next step and be really who I'm meant to be. And that's it. And so like the US Caste Ceremony, I have to describe, well, you have kind of ritual and everything. Of course there is deformation and there is a lot of things coming up in your head. - What country were you in? - Well, it was in Brazil, yeah. - Okay, okay.
And then, yeah, I mean, I don't know if it's so low there, but anyway, well, there is a lot of church from what I know. They do that every Sunday. I don't know how they do because, I mean, like the post effect is very long. I mean, because you are, you...
It's like, okay, we think this is the reality, but this is not the reality because, okay, we build our own reality and then, okay, all the pieces of the puzzle bring to
to again put together and again like you cannot really choose what's going to be to reveal to you the plan shows for you yeah that's pretty much it like you cannot say okay i want to see that or i want to see this parallel life or i want to see my future no the plan decide for for you and the
The plant knows what is the best for you. And, okay, talking about experimentation, while it's an amplification of everything, of course, there is deformation. And again, you need to release. That's an ego death.
totally. The death of your ego. Yeah, correct. That's what I've heard too. Like you, when you come back, you're like, your ego is just completely different. Yeah. And so then you're more aware. So for me, well, I did three wishes. I feel every time very, you know, disconnected from people. And I was like, I want to love people and I want to feel love. Okay. That sounds very, very weird. But I was like, yeah, I don't understand. There is this kind of
blockers into my life and I really want that and and then yeah I had that I mean I had kind of different vision of what love is how to give love and how to receive love and what else and yeah as a big part of of my experience is
Literally, the plan showed me that I am a leader. How did it show you though? Can you describe the experience? So, like, you have this kind of internal voice and then you see your end. Well, for me, I'm very macro. The experience was very macro. And my mind told me, like, okay, what you think is real is not real. See, now...
your fingers look like that. It's like dimension and showing me, you know, like, okay, all the energy. Everything right now is because your brain filter, literally. Okay? So meaning we are only energy. So I could see really the energy or, okay, I was doing that and my hand was changing. But every time with energy and then...
Yeah, the plant told me, yeah, look at this hand. You are the builder and creator. You have to get people. Just incredible. And you feel that, and you really feel. And then, yeah, I had vision of me in parallel life. In a parallel life. Yeah, because, well, again, there is more. And it's interesting, you know, because, again, like when you connect the dots,
Recently, the theory of multiverse, it's almost proven. So, like literally, okay, the way it is, yeah, you have a cosmos entity and we are only fragments on all of this. That's why sometimes you have this feeling to know this person. It's because we are just playing a game in different life and you met actually with that person.
It's energy. Our world is energy and there is different version of us in different, I have to say, history, circumstances, different world. So that's the way it really works. And anyway... Because you're saying all this now, how there's different version of us existing all at the same time and about energy and just like...
Like, is this something that was revealed to you through the experience or were you already thinking this way before you tried ayahuasca?
Not really. When my grandfather died, I wasn't very scared of death because he showed me literally like, okay, there is a kind of cosmic world. I don't know really how to describe. I mean, it's not the same way, like the way it's physical. But yeah, I just become more aware on everything. And my shaman told me, yeah, what do you think you were in Brazil? I just had a vision about you.
And the vision was like, and especially in my favorite line, Rio, with my wonderful view. I was feeling Rio is my city. I mean, I love Shanghai, but I mean, I cannot say. I feel this deep connection like Rio. And my chairman told me like, yeah,
Yeah, I mean, why do you think you're so much attracted about Brazil? I just had a vision about you in another life. You were a conquistador and actually you were a foreigner, but you were not a bad one. Actually, you were really helping the local and everything. And I think you were involved with the politics and everything. So again, like, makes sense. I mean, she didn't know me. I did my studies into fucking politics. I work in the French embassy. It's weird, right? I mean, like, yeah.
Meaning, like, okay, there is this common thing that is coming back. And I was like, okay, now that makes sense. And after the experience, well, I would say the experience itself, it's only 50%. 50% or other, it's really how you're going to implement. And you go...
I would say drastic changes. So for example, I used to put a lot of sugar into my coffee. I ate that. Yeah, I stopped that. Or I used to give a lot of my time to a lot of people that were not really considering me. I stopped that. That's simple. And then, yeah, you figure out how life can be simple because, okay,
you are aware on what's, well it depends on what is your experience but again
what has been the message delivered and all the possibilities. Literally everything is possible in this world, if you really want. - So is that what your message was? If you had to sum up the message that you got through your experience through-- - I just two words, two sentences. I am the builder and the creator. Meaning like no one can build or create. I am the only one capable of that and
And this awareness of I am a leader and I need to embrace it 100%. And stop, you know, I don't know, aging myself. I need to be the true leader no matter what, no matter my age or whatever. And that's not something you were really aware of before. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. So that's huge. What's really interesting about ayahuasca in particular to me versus a lot of the other...
a lot of other things out there is that repeatedly I hear from people like yourself, people who before you brought up ayahuasca, I would never in a million years thought you would have had two ayahuasca experiences already. Because typically the stigma is it's unmotivated people, druggies or whatever people just looking for a thrill trying these drugs. But repeatedly, especially with ayahuasca, I have heard people
from extremely motivated and structured and disciplined and successful people who are at the top of their game. And they are the ones that are saying, like, ayahuasca really helped change their lives. You know why? Why? Because 99% of the people, they are disconnected, but they are also living with constant fear. When the...
the truth that the plan revealed to you then there is no more fear like they don't they don't want to believe in that other truth you think like they're they're afraid of what they might see or they you're afraid of what they they're afraid of what they might experience uh well again the experimentation is different i mean like a lot of people go went through their life in different traumas that's not my case i was already a lot of aware of a lot of things and uh yeah again like uh
When you live that, and especially because my second experience, I see myself dying. And you know what? That's okay. When you live that, you're like, there is nothing to be afraid of or to fear. And that's why a lot of people, they live, you know, with their fears. They did an experiment, okay, through iOS, because that really could help them to not be in fear anymore. It's literally what's going on with the COVID-19.
Noam Chomsky explains that. You create the problems and you bring the solution. You keep repeating the message, the message, the message, and then you believe coronavirus exists. Do you think it really exists? I don't believe it. There is 2 billion virus right now around us, meaning everything coming from yourself.
If you eat well, if you... Well, I'm not very athletic, but I do at least 10,000 steps a day. I already commit to that. If you move in of your body, if you have healthy relationship around you, I'm never sick. I'm never sick. And if I am, I drink whiskey. That's it. So...
So are you saying that literally? Do you believe that if you have your life in order, you can't get sick? Is that something? Or are you just saying that metaphorically? What is... What I'm saying is the communication and the way you communicate, create your own reality. That's it. So of course, if you're going to listen to the media, yeah, COVID-19, COVID-19, COVID-19, then it's become...
part of your reality. I never watch media. I'm getting more than fine. I didn't get sick or whatever. And if you are eating healthy, of course, you're going to be more than fine. And that's the thing. Cancer and all this thing, well, of course, because in the food right now,
And it's going to be part of my next five years. I really plan my five years like that. Next step is going to be New Zealand because, yeah, the problems that we have in China, it's a high toxicity that we have in the food. So the time, you know, my body recover of all this high level of toxicity, of course, is going to take a couple of years. But again, like...
like the states, different states or governments that want you to access to this information.
psychedelic because they go already to the roots rather than okay well because anyway we are controlled by the industrial pharmaceutical companies that only cure kind of septum and get you addicted to take more and more i mean there is a lot of money of course if there is no no money inside here it wouldn't work so yeah that's the way um that's the way it is you know and uh
And again, it's everything about communication. It's very easy, and I can tell how it's easy in 2020 to manipulate people. There is nothing difficult. And again, there is structure for that. And again, I think COVID-19 exists, but the level of danger is not as described. What about the tests? I don't even know.
So that's it. And why a lot of Americans die? They have one of the highest level of obesity, or health care system that is not good at all. - Or pre-existing conditions. - So yeah, and plus people are in this culture of driving a car so they never move their body.
So they were all the condition and plus the food. Don't talk about the food. So you're saying Americans are fat and lazy. No, I wouldn't say that. I'm joking. I respect especially people from California because my business partner, she's coming from there. No, but again, that's...
- One of the danger in America, yeah, the society is definitely sick. - A lot more sedentary. - Yeah, and that's a problem. And that's why there is a level of aggressivity that it is extremely high. I won't compare with France, but at least we eat more healthy,
we run the bicycle, this kind of thing. Yeah, Europeans seem a lot more active in their daily lifestyle. Yeah. But China is incredibly sedentary as well. Yeah. China is very, like, I feel like the idea of, like, working out and exercising is...
is not completely mainstream yet. I mean, let me clarify. It's like within your lifestyle, right? Like I feel like people try to save energy wherever they can here. Whereas like maybe in Europe, people go out of their way to expend more energy. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. So it's a different mentality.
So I feel like a lot of people are very sedentary in China. Yeah, yeah. No, definitely. And what is dangerous is, especially for the next generation, the high level of obesity. And again, they are with a screen. So we're going to see the next generation. Yeah, well, whenever I'm in the subway... So you're going to have deformation here. Oh, yeah, in the neck, shoulders. The neck and the attention span. The brain is totally fucked up for the new generation of Chinese. I'm saying...
what, not for everyone, but for the majority of this next generation. And it's kind of dangerous, you know? - Oh, I agree, I agree. It's fucked up. The attention spans are gonna be so fucked up, especially with things like doing and TikTok, where it's like through second, like me, I'm a relatively like, you know, I grew up in the media, social media age and technology age, but like something like TikTok is completely like, that's just too much for me.
Like I thought YouTube was bad with like five minute clips. I already thought that was short. Now you're going on TikTok and it's like three second, 10 second clips. You move on to next thing, another 10 seconds and move on. Yeah, yeah.
- And you were saying before we started recording, you saw research that the next generation people, their attention spans are actually gonna be shorter than that of a goldfish? - It's already the case. - It's already the case? - Yeah, so according to a survey done by Microsoft in 2018, human, we have seven seconds of attention span. - On average, we have seven seconds. - On average, correct. Where a goldfish has eight seconds.
Meaning we are totally dumb. And I mean, it's just a fact, you know. People may think like, yeah, Julian is radical and da-da-da. No, I'm just telling the truth. Just look around you. You have no more control.
You have no more control. I think it's already extraordinary. See, we didn't check our phone. Yeah. It's already one hour and a half. And I'm telling you, we are one of the few spaces that, okay, is going, well, I think, because you are aware, right? And people right now are totally unaware and they accept that and, um,
And that's a main issue. And the parents also, in China, they have a big issue. It's like they don't know how to educate their children. And that's just a fact. So they say, okay, you can look to your screen. They have literally no control. And as I mentioned previously, my parents made the choice
Before 10 years old, I won't have internet or I won't have any... When did I get my first cell phone? My first smartphone was maybe at 14 years old. - Are you grateful that they did that? Like, do you feel that's helped you? - Yeah, definitely. - And do you have kids? - No. - So if and when you do have kids, are you gonna do the same with them?
- Yeah, maybe more extreme actually. - Wow, really? But it's gonna be so hard because times are so different now than when you grew up. You know, social like, you know, technology is so much even more ingrained now than, you know, during even when you were a kid and then let alone when you have kids, like, so you think you're gonna be even more radical, more strict in terms of at an early age limiting
Of course, because anyway, when they will reach their adult age, they will be grateful because they will think, well, at least I still have my attention span thanks to my father and I still have my brain where the rest of the people are just slaves. That's it. You know, it's not difficult.
the smartphone is really getting a shame like the slaves, you know, during the 18th century. That's exactly the same thing. And people, you know, they can't live without that. Literally, it's in their hands. Yeah.
It's just insane. Yeah. Like they go to the bathroom, they have to have it. Everywhere they go, we have to have our smartphones. I was in, again, in the earlier episode, I was talking to Maria and we were having this conversation as well. We were having this conversation of like, you know, when you're taking the subway, do you ever just look around and,
and realize you're the only person in this entire subway that's not looking at their phones right now. And it's kind of surreal when you work around, like literally, like literally every other single person is looking at their phone and you realize, whoa, I'm the only person that's not staring at my phone right now, which is kind of weird. Yeah, correct. And that's right. Again, a lot of disconnection between people into society because people,
Well, a few years ago when I was living in Brazil, I mean, at least people were talking. I don't know if I come back right now to Rio de Janeiro,
- How it would be? Well, generally people don't show their phone because they know they can get robbed. So they eradicate the problem. - Oh, they don't, because they feel they can get robbed? - Yeah. - So they don't take out the phone? - That's part of the mentality there. So well, at least it protects people in that way. - Did you get robbed at all when you were at your time in the favela in Brazil or in town in Brazil? - Almost one, yes. One guy, you know, I was living as a boss.
And I put a fucking knife under my throat, just like that, and asked me, you know, for my phone. And then a guard just went out with a bait of baseball, just like that, and told him, okay, just go away. And saved my phone. Well, it was a BlackBerry at the time. Wow, so you had to get a knife to your throat. Wow, were you shitting your pants or...
You don't have the time to really think about that. You're like, okay, let me clarify the question and just take a look into my environment. So I play as a chrono, which I was right, you know, because I knew I was in a rich area. So meaning like, okay,
By any miracle, maybe someone will come to save me. But the truth is, you know what? You don't do anything. I mean, Jackie Chan is only in the movie. I mean, practice judo and everything. When you have a knife under your throat, you don't do anything. Yeah, and I was like, okay. So what you want, let me clarify in Portuguese. It's my phone. Yes, yes, right now, your phone. Okay.
okay, let me check. But you know, it's so fucking slow. And then the guy, um, the security guard come and, uh, begin to just, just a random security guard, security guard of your building that you were staying. No, no, no. Because, uh, well, I was in the area called our polar, which is between Ipanema and Copacabana because I wanted to buy a mini skate because it was cool, you know? And, uh,
And then I think the guy, because of course I was white, was thinking I was one of the residents, right? But yeah, in Brazil, anyway, you don't show that you have money. That's the rule number one. And it's not like China. I mean, you cannot let your MacBook like that. Oh, yeah. I was in Sao Paulo several years ago. And I was with a friend there and...
And we got into his car, right? And I had, this was my first time in Brazil. And we got into his car and then we were driving around and then I rolled down the window and I realized that, and it was just like a normal BMW or something like that. And all his windows are bulletproof glass. Everything's bulletproof. And I was like, whoa, because they were really, really thick, these windows, like super thick. I'm like, what is up with this window? He's like, yeah, they're all bulletproof.
And it's like, yeah, I got to drive around in bulletproof glass. I was like, oh shit. Okay. Yeah. Welcome to Brazil. Welcome to Brazil. I know, right? Yeah. Yeah. But I mean, it's really, I think it's really fascinating talking to someone like you because, you know, you do have a very different mindset and,
you do have a way about you where I feel like you said, a lot of people might think you're arrogant or something like that, but I feel it's just, you just have a real sense of clarity about what you want. And that is combined with a real sense of urgency about time. So when you combine those two things, when you're clear and you're urgent and protective of your time,
you have literally zero tolerance for anything bullshit that's not serving you, right? Correct. So, yeah, I mean, I get that. I appreciate that. I respect that. But yes, I understand how, you know, other people will feel like, you know, you're more abrasive or you're just more arrogant or whatever it is, right? Yeah. I get that. But I feel like talking to people like you is...
Very interesting because I get to see like a different perspective. And I think there's always something else to be learned from other people's perspective. And you seem to have a lot of, even though you're young, I mean, you're only fucking 28 years old. That's young. I mean, you seem to have a lot of life experience already. And what is your vision for the future in terms of what you want to do? I know we talked about, because this is another thing I want to get in touch and talk to you about is,
you know, you seem to want to relate everything to the kind of like the idea of like space. Yeah. Exploration. Yeah, correct. Even with what you do with LinkedIn, you know, like you want to relate and how you run your company. What is that? Like why, what is it about space that fascinates you so much and that you try to incorporate in everything you do? Because again, yeah,
If you analyze humanity, well, there were still new territories to discover. There was an excitement. And I think it's inside our DNA to push the boundaries of the space. But unfortunately, the society we are living in
disconnect us from this idea, okay, to push the boundaries. People are lost. They believe in this kind of new religion, which for me is totally bullshit, about coaching. Can you imagine people are not capable to raise their own problems? They think it's going to be through code and code coaching. Coaching, you say? Yeah. So you don't believe in coaching? Of course not. Really? Because the thing is...
Your life is your life. You are the hero of your own journey and no one can help us, can help you on that. And that's it. And that's it. And I think the society, the society of compromise and, um,
I don't know, like saying, yeah, you are not all right. No, you are just who you are. You are just in your own journey. You have your own value and that's okay. There is nothing to stress about. And the things that we are living right now in this society that is literally...
so much with smoke and mirror, with code and code value, bring down really humanity. And I feel sad for that. And for sure, like I won't save all the companies, I won't save all the human. But for all the greatest thing I've seen into my life,
Living in Brazil, in Poland, or in China, or even in Thailand. Wow, the diversity for the first time. You know, the problem is nationalism. For the first time, we were looking everyone into the same direction, which is the sky. Meaning like humanity will achieve its vision of being a space here. And we will achieve great things.
I mean, taking a step back, you think what we are really living right now, it's a strong revolution? I don't think so. Oh, no, because everything is so divided right now. Yeah. And everyone's just looking out for their own interests. Yeah. Now, instead of having a united purpose in terms of pushing humanity forward, right? Yeah. But I mean, hasn't the world always been like that, though? The world has always been fucked up and divided and selfish and greed-
Right? It's always been like that. Well, at least there was still innovation and the hope for a better world tomorrow. And I don't feel that. I mean, right now it looks like people are, I don't know, like into a box and trying to make it for their own survival. They don't,
I encourage people to think, okay, when is going to be your last day? When are you going to die? When is going to be your heritage? People don't think about that. They don't even have this capacity to ask themselves this kind of question. And I think that's sad. And that's why the current pandemic we are living, it's a chance, but a lot of people won't survive through that. And some people will...
come to this state of awareness and it's great because it's going to impact a lot of people, it impacts myself. I mean, I can tell every day so many people that change and it's encouraging, but we need to be more ambitious, more ambitious for our life and more ambitious for what's going to be our legacy. I'm serious about that. What's going to be
left for the next generation and to the planet. That's a serious matter. I mean, it's just ridiculous when people think like, oh, I cannot go to the restaurant because we are in lockdown. Come on. You know, or even, you know, the way that, okay, like this new generation, I don't know, they are just treated like kids. And I'm like, you know, when...
Our grandparents, they were 18 years old. They were going into fucking war. That's just a fact. And now if you take a step back, everyone is really treated like a child. And that's the main problem.
So you feel like people are just getting softer and weaker, right? Like our tolerance for harsh things and traumatic things is just getting lower and lower. And that's why this idea of radicality is not accepted because we live in this...
continuous compromise but if you really want to achieve things there is no compromise it's only through being radical that you can really achieve things and yeah that's my feeling correct yeah that's cool I can dig that
But going back really quick to your thoughts on coaching, have you, like growing up, you never had anyone in your life that helped you or that you talked to and that could give you feedback or that you can just bounce ideas off of and improve yourself? You never had anyone in your life that can help you like that? Yeah, but again, you know, this idea of coaching is like coaching is a profession. I mean, for me, it's more about the exchange, right?
And again, like for me it's very simple. If the average on who we are, it's the five people around our life. I bring the best people that I don't even know physically. Meaning Brian Ross. I love his podcast. Well now...
I love yours too. You don't have to say that. I'm just beginning. I think it's really cool. I mean, like, you know why? Honest drink? Yeah. Let's be honest. You know, because, yeah, majority of podcasts, it's too much prepare. So it's too much bullshit. But at least there's a good way. There's a lot of bullshit out there, right? Yeah. And yeah, I think like, yeah, but if we really take this perspective, then okay. Yeah.
who are the people who are the most inspiring for me. And it doesn't mean necessarily to be someone that is physical. It can be like, okay, I don't know, through a podcast, through interview, et cetera, et cetera. And then you think like, okay, as a CEO, for example, okay,
how Jose Mourinho will coach my team. So it's more in that perspective. I take the inspiration, I don't need to be coached. I readapt what it exists.
Well, I like your approach with the exercise of you are the average of the five people you surround yourself with. And you take that a step further, which I think is actually really useful in that it doesn't have to be someone physically there that you know. You can take ideas of people, the concept of someone. Like if you're into Steve Jobs or Gandhi or whoever you're into, you can take their
Their personality, their idea, their symbol or what they're about and what you know of them as well in those people that you surround yourself with in terms of how you process things, how you're going to react to things. You're like, okay, well, what would he do? How would he approach this? And that is in a way surrounding yourself with somebody, right? Yeah. I really like that.
And yes, there is a lot of bullshit out there. There's definitely a lot of bullshit coaches out there for sure. - Tell me more about that. What do you think, Justin? - Well, no, there's a lot of bullshit in everything out there. And I agree with you on that. There's a lot of bullshit media, right? There's a lot of bullshit coaches, therapists. There's a lot of bullshit marketing agencies out there, right? There are.
But that doesn't mean that the idea of these things is necessarily a bad idea. You know, the idea of a coach that someone that, if they're not bullshit, that can actually help you for people, you know, maybe it wouldn't work for you, but for a lot of people it might. The idea of it is not necessarily a bad idea. So I wouldn't let the fact that there are a lot of bullshit out there. The idea that is noble, it's they want to help people. But in my mantra is first help yourself first.
before having the pretension. - Oh, for sure, for sure. - You see what I mean? - Well, the misconception I think with coaching is that they're just gonna do things for you. That's not how coaching works. The answers aren't within you. You have to help yourself. And there's only so much a coach can do. A coach can only do so little for you. But that doesn't mean that that little bit can't actually help you if you're willing to be helped. But I agree with you in that it's ultimately up to yourself.
And you have to at least attempt to help yourself first before you go and try to seek a coach. Because if you don't even try to help yourself, and you're just like, oh, I'm just going to go seek a coach, then that's kind of bullshit because you're not even trying at that point, right? You're just looking for the easy answer and whatever. And that's not how it works. It's not going to be easy. And the whole thing with honesty, I agree. There's...
Like you said, there's almost like this fear of honesty now, right? With people trying to be politically correct, with people having all sorts of ideas or, you know, in this day and age where everyone's so connected, there's this almost this fear of being honest. And going back to the attention span thing is like, you know, even with this podcast, like I had to make a real concerted effort to
to make this podcast what it is. Our episodes are usually an hour and a half, sometimes two hours. But in the beginning, everyone was telling me, no, no, no, no, no, that's way too long. That's way too long. You got to make it like 15 minutes, make it 30 minutes tops. And my whole thing was like, no.
Fuck you. There's so many, so much stuff out there that's already short and everything is just getting shorter and shorter. I wanted to purposely create a space where we can sit here for an hour and a half and really just talk about
to each other and have this space to talk it out where it's becoming more rare. - And for the audience it's cool, you know? Because every time you bring, okay, a new guest, so I mean, okay, it's Sunday, let's say 3:00 PM, and yeah, you take your bottle of whiskey and I'm going to listen to the podcast of Justin with his new guest. I think the concept is revolutionary.
Well, I wouldn't go that far where it's revolutionary. But your point is, look, we've been sitting here for over an hour and a half, an hour and 40 something minutes now, and we haven't looked at our phone once. Well, if it's not revolutionary, then I would specify a bias saying it's innovative. I mean, seriously, and I've never seen, and I did a lot of podcast interviews, but
with that concept, with a podcast that long, I mean, you have also processes. I mean, come on. We need to come to your place, which is very fine, actually. I mean, like, I really enjoy it. You, okay, we have to drink. So, I mean, it's difficult, you know, like, alcohol. And, yeah, it's a long format where we know, okay, okay,
It's almost okay. We are friends, you know, right now. And I like that, you know. And I don't think revolutionary is exaggerated. Innovative is for sure, but I don't know. I mean, like, seriously, I don't think there isn't any other podcast like that. So, I mean, it's cool. It's cool. The idea is not to be like everyone. It's to do what you really, really want. And what you want is to...
to spend a certain amount of time with your guests to really know them and create this relationship. And I think, yeah, we talk about that, it really helps you for
It was a kind of therapy, right, if I'm correct, for really getting with more social interaction. And I think, yeah, that's great because if you spend a certain time with these people, then there is a true interaction. And as we mentioned, it's really...
how to say, in opposition in this world where there is less and less authenticity. See what I mean? Yeah, there's definitely less and less, unfortunately. Although I feel like more people are catching on now and there'll be more honest conversations to be had.
But thank you, Julian, for taking the time to be here. You know, again, with formats like this, I love talking to different types of people. Whether we agree or disagree on things, it's fine. But there's always something to be learned and taken away from the conversation. And like you said, now I have a new friend. Yeah, great, man. Everyone, that was Julian. I am Justin. And we love you guys. Peace. Bye.
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