#173- Jason Oakley: The Bite
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One, two, three, whenever you're ready. Hi, everyone. My name is Jason Oakley, and I guess I'm a chef by trade, a dad, a person that doesn't like talking about himself, so that's why I decided to come on a podcast. And been in Shanghai for a long time now. All right. On the theme of, you know, like the last thing you like to do is talk about yourself. Other than that, what's the least favorite thing that you're looking forward to today on this show?

Well, this is going to be interesting because I think with this group of people here, we can probably just go on multiple tangents because I think we've all kind of experienced a lot of the same things living in this city. So I'm kind of open for anything. Awesome. There's no limits, no bars. Nothing. All right. And so if you were not a chef or restaurateur, what would you be doing? Well, if photography liked me as much as I liked it,

then I would love to be a photographer. I love skateboarding. I love the vibe and the culture, so I'd like to kind of capture that in still frame. Nice. Awesome. All right, I'm Justin. I'm Howie. And I'm Eric. Welcome to The Honest Drink, and please give it up for Jason Oakley. I just wanna listen to you.

And I guess that also kind of changes with age, you know, because when I was a lot younger, I was nicknamed the volcano because I'd just lose my shit on something so fucking simple because the guy wasn't ready or he just pissed me off. And it would just, then I would explode and then it would just be a disaster for the rest of the night because then now nothing is right. That's like Eric. We call him the Hulk. Okay. Wait, hold on. How would you feel after erupting? Would

Would you like regret that or were you whatever? No. And then I would say what I have to say and then I would just move on like it never happened. Oh shit. Right. And then. It's just an explosion. That's what volcanoes do. Like what would be an example of something that would set you off? Someone overcooking a steak.

Something not being served at the right temperature, something being set up too quickly, not flowing with the rest of the kitchen. So anything that wasn't perfect. I can say anything. Exactly. So basically anything that wasn't perfect. And it sounds like you have high standards. Well, yeah. And people are paying a lot of money to come to these places, right? So you have zero margin of error. Or it's kind of like if you're in the CIA and –

And someone knows that you fixed a problem. Well, then you're not a very good agent, are you? Right? So you have to make sure the customer has no idea that there was a mistake that happened. Like the flow has to be just right. That's such an interesting example. You would use that. So, but you know, that was, I was a volcano back then. But as you get older, your personality kind of changes and you realize, wow, I was kind of a dick back then. You know, like, wow, I'm surprised these guys still talk to me. I'm surprised I wasn't stabbed. Right.

Like, wow. Okay. So then you go through some reflection where you get older. And my newest trait, I guess, happened when I had a kid. So about eight, nine years ago, I kind of learned patience because I was extremely patient with him. And then that was kind of the only thing that changed.

when my kid was born is I think I got a trait called patience. The rest, nothing's changed. It's kind of like forced upon you, right? When you get a kid, you either be patient or you call you volcano. It's like, daddy, volcano. Well, it's not even about what they're going to call you. It's like, either you're going to go insane or you learn some patience. Because they are volcano. The kids are volcano. Right? So I think that is kind of reflected into my career path or how I've kind of grown as a human. So I approach things a little bit different in the kitchen now.

You can't have an angry guy back there slinging sandwiches, can you? Making shitty pizza. Well, you could. In New York, that was pretty common. That's true. Well, let's just hop into that right now. I mean, right now you have one of the hottest restaurants in Shanghai and substandard, which I think, and I don't know if this is true, but I feel it. And I think we've kind of talked about this a little bit, at least amongst ourselves as well.

Which is, when you kind of came on the spot and you opened up your shop, all of a sudden I saw a trend of sandwiches start getting sold in a lot of restaurants and new sandwich shops start coming up. I'm not saying that you started it, but that's what I'm kind of saying. What happened?

Why sandwiches? What happened? Okay. Well, first off, this concept is kind of near and dear because we've lived here for a long time and it was very hard to get a decent sandwich. And I think everybody who kind of grew up in the States or even France, all over the place, sandwiches are kind of near and dear to people. Especially growing up in F&B, chefs, we eat more meals standing up than sitting down. So it's a quick energy boost and delicious and you can be done in a few minutes.

Like I thought of this concept a long time ago and then just never really pulled the trigger on it. And then finally it was just like, let's go, you know, let's, let's have a try. Let's see what happens. Let's minimal investment, low overhead, low, small footprint, see if it works. And yeah, it took off quite well. I mean, the reason we only want to do sandwiches at the beginning, but it was like, what if, what if, you know, what if it fucking fails, you know? So we decided to pad, pad ourselves with pizza because I love pizzas as well.

and see what would happen. So if the sandwiches didn't take off, at least the pizzas would kind of sustain the business. But it's the opposite. We do 80% sandwiches, so it's great. But yeah, I noticed. I think every chef in the city was just waiting to see if it worked. Do you feel that there's a lot more places opening up now? I have noticed it, but I think maybe my brain is just trained to notice it. But maybe they've always been there. Because before we opened,

Every sandwich I would order from any deli tasted just like I could go to City Shop, buy an old baguette, some cold cuts, some mustard, some mayonnaise, some lettuce, tomato, and put together an average sandwich. So we wanted to be the opposite of that. We wanted to make a sandwich that you will never make at home. Yeah. Right? Because no one, I mean, post-COVID, I don't think many people are baking anymore. So you wouldn't get up in the morning, bake your bread, chiffonade your lettuce, shave the ham,

Well, there's so much more that goes into a simple sandwich than I think most common people think, right? Exactly. People just think it's just like, okay, you put some meat in between two slices of bread. There's so much more thought that goes into it to like just calibrate it just right. There's just so much more in the consistency of it, the ratio, everything, right? Well, that's what I like about cooking because simple doesn't mean easy. And you want people to think it's simple, but the...

the research and the development that goes behind the scenes before you get it right. I think we, we probably tested 15 different breads, uh, different flowers, uh, wild yeast versus dry yeast versus active yeast. First, you know, we, we tried a lot of things. We tried to put them in the molds. We tried free forming them. We did, we did a lot basically is what I'm saying. Um,

And then we kind of achieved the one we want, the texture and the texture of the bread. I think we nailed it. And that's what people really enjoy. Yeah. I have a question because I think there's so many topics we can get to, but I want to use this question to pivot back to your background as a very, you know, well-respected chef in general. But I think my take on the sandwich thing, I mean, I've been, you know, we've all been in China for a long time, 10, 15 plus years, right?

And like, I don't think that sandwich is just really an art form. First of all, it was done at a very low level. And I also don't think that traditionally people in China, like they ate a lot of sandwiches, right? But they do. Well, hold on, hold on. Okay. So I don't think this was just, there were so many things that have developed in Shanghai in the last 10 or 15 years in terms of Western cuisine. So sandwiches is like one of the last untouched

territories but even even back in the day there were different sandwich shops and we you know some of these places but i mean shanghai has come such a long way with western cuisine yeah so many different things so many michelin is here like all this stuff right we'll get to michelin later but um absolutely there was i i agree with you how we like there wasn't good sandwiches here it was an untapped market it was an untapped market because there were so many other elements i do want to give a quick shout out i remember back in the day um

Who's the guy from Madison? Austin? Oh, Austin. Of course. He made a decent sandwich. So I don't want to pretend like there was not a single good sandwich. No, honestly. And the roast beef on our menu is in honor of Austin. The big girl is what he used to do. What was his last name? Austin? Who? Austin. Who? So I think this... So I think he made a decent sandwich. He made some good stuff. He was awesome. He was my favorite chef in the city. Yeah.

- I'm sorry to leave him out. - So I wanna give him a shout out for that. - Absolutely. - But that amplifies this, right? Just like a slight pivot there. I mean, rest in peace, Austin, but I mean, he's a legend, right? Probably one of your peers. - He was a close friend. - Yeah, yeah, like your peer friend, et cetera. And like he did it, but he was a big time restaurateur and then this was one of the things that he did, right? And so there is not a sandwich sort of culture and all that stuff.

And then a couple of people tried and then you came along. And then I think maybe that's starting some type of movement where you've sort of elevated this. I don't know. I mean, I think, you know, growing up in the food and beverage industry, I

It just, just, it just, there was a need for it. You know, like in Shanghai. Yeah. There is just a disappointment, you know, of trying to find a decent sandwich. Yeah. And you couldn't. Then you order it and we go, that sucks. And it was so bad, I wouldn't even feed it to my dog. So it just goes in the bin and you just kind of get exhausted for it. And it was just like, again, Substandard was kind of based on nostalgia.

- Yeah, like in my memory, growing up in a lot of places and towns in the States, the best sandwich to this day in my memory that I have was my local sandwich place down the street in New Jersey from me, right? - Yeah. - Local Italian deli. - Is that your experience? Like how you're like, oh, I love sandwiches so much. Is that just American culture? - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - So what are your top sandwiches? I'm curious, what are your top three? Not the restaurant necessarily, but the types of sandwiches.

so from for nostalgia for me yeah is an italian sandwich 100 for me as well like an italian like salami provolone ham like yeah but like but like the way i remember it done in jersey you know like that's that's the gold standard for me yeah but can i ask you something visually speaking i don't know if we have the exact because i i'm also italian for me as italian or a turkey turkey club but um

But I just remember those sandwiches being like this freaking huge. Huge. And soaking like soggy with oil and vinegar. Soaking with oil and vinegar. Yeah. Oh. Even you would get those and then let them sit overnight just to get even more soggy. Yes. It had to be soggy. Yeah. And it's like that. Lots of salt and pepper as well. So you really have that. Oregano, salt and pepper. It works. And banana peppers. Oh, you always have that. You gotta have the banana peppers. Which are crazy expensive.

So it's frustrating because I wish they were cheaper, but I can't live without them. Are they just expensive to get them here in China? I think so, yeah. Oh, yeah. The orange, like the greenish-orange ones? They're super expensive. And I could cop out and just use jalapenos, but it's just not the same. No, it won't be the same. Is there a sweetness to it a little bit? They're sweet. They're sour. They get a little bit of heat to them. The texture is spot on.

And they also leach onto the bread a little bit. That's why we put them on the top end. So that sauce or the brine leaks into the bread. Wait, let me ask you, Jason, then. Because we were talking about on the face of it, a sandwich seems so simple, right? To the uninitiated, I guess you would just think, yeah, I can make a good sandwich, right? Everyone can make a good sandwich. I would hope so. But what do you think was missing? Why did so many fail to make a good sandwich, at least by our standards,

Like, what was missing in your mind, do you think? Okay, first off, nobody...

Has their staff come in at 6.30 in the morning and start baking bread for the whole day. And then if you run out at 3 o'clock, they start baking again for 5 o'clock. So it's about freshness in my staff. So they undervalue the bread component. The bread component for sure. Because I hate crusty hard baguette. Especially when they've been sitting around for days. It's just terrible. Yeah, 100%. Eating rocks, really. Yeah. It's horrible. So that is one key factor. And then we never reuse bread for the next day.

We try to give it out to people. God, that makes so much sense that you underestimate bread. But going back to that question, how much of it do you think it's just because there wasn't someone who grew up

like someone who was starting the sandwich shop didn't actually grow up in an environment where there was that love and passion. I feel like, I mean, when Austin created his shop, like it was also very much based on his heritage. I almost feel like, you know, people like a lot of restaurateurs, they came out there, came out here to make their mark and stuff like that. And so they opened up restaurants and things like that, but there wasn't necessarily someone who did it out of the love of sort of that type of food. You know, how much of it do you think it was just that? Yeah.

Well, that, and I also think it's, I'll get back to you in a second, but it's the cost perspective. You know, when you add on the delivery fees, the platform fees, the cost of the food, the cost of labor, your overhead, the margin's pretty minor if you're using good ingredients. Like for that roast beef, we're using a Wagyu M4. Yeah, that's good quality beef. And that turkey-

It's a proper turkey breast. We slow cook for 15 hours at 55 degrees, right? And then we got to chill it and shave it, and it tastes like turkey. It's not a bought loaf piece of turkey, right? So I think it's a cost perspective. It's lowering costs, basically, is what a lot of cheap sandwiches taste like to me. I think it's the Subway effect also. Yeah. People think that's the sandwich. Trash.

But there's a very real problem there with sandwiches, right? Like you were saying with the cost is that there is a ceiling in terms of how much you can list a sandwich for on a menu. I can only charge so much. Yeah. Because there's only so much people are going to be willing to pay for a sandwich. Absolutely. So I'm going to eat the rest because I, literally, because I can only charge so much, but I'm not going to cut my quality. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like we're using this really nice harissa for the sausage smash. Yeah.

that stuff's crazy expensive and you're making your own sausage and all that yeah yeah so i mean like if you would come out like i mean how long have you been out here in china i don't know um 2007 i don't know yeah 16 15 it's almost like in the thought experiment was like imagine like when you first came out and you had this idea and you're all gung-ho and you did it right then there were so many factors that could have gotten in the way because first the

there might not have been a customer base for it. It's probably like a lot of things had you started with sandwiches, you know, then it might not have turned out the same way. You know, kind of being in the F&B industry, you kind of got to be a study of human behavior. You know, you got to see what's going on in post COVID spending habits have changed expats. A lot of expats have left the country. So there was a lot of factors involved. And I think one of the biggest ones was basically the,

Spending habits, right? So when people are eating more and delivery kind of grew, not many people are going out for every meal like you were pre-COVID, right? I was probably going out for...

four days a week to go to a restaurant and eat, right? Now you see a trend that a lot of people just eat at home and they get delivery. You can get everything delivered now, right? You can get a coffee, a juice delivered to your office, right? So we kind of, we saw that happening a little bit. So we want to do something that's more delivery based. And I think it was,

Just kind of consumer shifting and watching the market and seeing what was kind of needed right now. But getting back to Austin, I loved his food. We were going to his place all the time. It wasn't even a question. It's like talking to the wife. It's like, where are we going to go tonight? It's like going to Madison, right? He also used to do lasagna, which kind of made me want to do lasagna. His chocolate cake was so good. We've been inspired by his chocolate. We've been inspired by a lot of his food.

You know, and he just, he just cooks the wet. Like I always say in my kind of a cooking style, I want to cook food that I would like to be served. Yeah. Right. And so if, if I look at it and say, yes, that's what I would want to eat. Like this person's lucky. Right. Then, then I think we, we've achieved our goal. Hence the sandwiches, man. Right. Like there's this thing about trying to put together this like beautifully cooked,

you know, orchestrated plate. That's like a piece of work on, on, on a plate. And, you know, you have your very high end restaurants and Michelin restaurants that do that. But then I always felt like, because I appreciate it, but when I'm hungry, I,

I just want some like comfort food that just hits the spot. You know, that's low maintenance. That's just delicious, right? And so I've always cooked. Obviously, I'm not on the level you're on. But even when I cook, like for my friends, like I just cook what I, exactly how I would want to eat it.

And that's what I make. It's been a while, by the way. And that's how I feel like it should be done, right? Like, I don't know. It's been a while, hint, hint. Well, that's it. Like, when I see a place and it's just tweezers all over, I'm like, oh, gosh, it's going to be one of those. I feel like some people do it for the sake of doing it that way, right? Come on. Foam, yeah. Stop with this. Deconstructed this. I'd rather see someone with a spoon in their pocket tasting what's going to go out than to put

the right precision of frisee on top of a prawn. Like, I don't care about that little piece of lettuce. Like I'm going to knock that thing off and just go for the prawn anyway. Yeah. Um, so I mean, there's a time and place for it. And there's some places that, uh, you know, there's some places I go because I want that and I know how good they are at it. But there's other times I'm just like, I ain't going to try that place because nope. Uh, nope. Well, my pet peeve is leaving, leaving a restaurant hungry.

And I often do when it's a higher end restaurant. Can I go on a little bit of a tangent on that? Please. Rant even better. So we were in Vegas, me and a girlfriend at the time, we were going to Robuchon in the MGM. Okay, so we sit down. Okay, cool. It's classy, whatever. This is like when the first Robuchon started being launched all over the world.

Waiter comes out. You would like to get the specials? Sure. We have a pan-seared frog legs with chanterelle mushrooms and a parsley foam or something. It's like, well, that sounds good. Okay, we'll get one of those. We'll get this, this, this, and this. Of course, we're going to have the Robuchon potatoes. Great.

The plate comes out and it's one frog leg on a plate with four baby little chanterelles. And it was like 25 bucks. Jeez. I was like, what is this? Seriously, there's a one-legged frog running around Vegas with a pocket full of cash right now. I was like, okay. So we ate and then we left. We're like, I'm still hungry. Okay. So we went down to Knob Hill, which is kind of right down the hallway in MGM.

popped in there got a cable car cheese plate hoping that would satiate and the cheese came out and i love cheese i love cheese like i wanted one point in my life i want to write a book about cheese so you know kind of well versed in this uh category and the blue cheese came out and it was rancid like it just didn't sell so it gets this uh green kind of slime that kind of builds up on the outside and when that happens okay fine you just cut it off and you just serve the centerpiece it's actually still good

So the cheese plate was rancid. The cable car was so-so. And again, now we're down like 250 bucks between the two places and we're still not happy. And this is Vegas, right? So this is supposed to be like the capital of like, you know, Colorado. And these are, these are credible places that we're going to. Yeah. So then we're kind of still angry and still hungry and just grumpy. So we get in the car, we're going out of the car park and, and, uh, we kind of get up on Tropicana and look across the street and there's Hooters.

I'm like, why not? So we basically just drove straight across the street, ended up at Hooters, got a pitcher of beer and like 50 wings and finally we're happy. And it was the best meal. And it was like done. Yeah. Yeah. So we started off at Robuchon and we ended up at Hooters just to get satisfied.

Yeah. We don't even eat Hooters. McDonald's. Actually, I don't want to go off too much on a tangent, but when I first met Jason, I actually thought of you. You guys have a lot of similar characteristics. What? He's good looking? Yes, I agree. He's got that radio face. Also back in the day, skateboarding and just some of the culinary influences and stuff like that.

The conversation made me think a lot about you, actually. It's funny that you just reacted to the hooters. You're like, ah! That hit home. That hit home. Yeah, yeah. No, exactly. Yeah, so I get annoyed by some of these Michelin places because they're not cheap. No. Right? And we were talking about Michelin Guide earlier and what kind of credibility do they bring. Back in the day, I really felt pretty confident in them and their ability to... But they grew. They grew as a brand. They grew as a company. Yeah.

Now, I don't really believe them at all. Do you think there's a lot of corruption within, like people getting paid off to write good reviews or give stars? Absolutely. I mean, I was a judge for Pellegrino years and years ago. I can talk about it now because I'm not a judge. But I was for Asia, Top 50, and World.

So kind of the credibility you get behind that is, well, you got to be in the kind of the F&B business, travel a lot, eat at these places. And everything's out of pocket, right? You don't get reimbursed for anything. It's just you. Really? Yeah, no, you don't pay. No. Okay. But then, but the company pays, right? Like not the judge, right? No, I pay. We pay. What? Why? Yeah.

Like for the people that work for Michelin, for instance, like they don't have, like doesn't Michelin pay? It's a company, right? Michelin, probably. But for Pellegrino, for World's Top 50, Asia Best, whatever, that comes out, you get these judges who basically just go out because you enjoy eating. So no, it all comes out of pocket.

- But I'm saying like Bangkok is bang for buck. I mean, 'cause I can hit so many places so quick there. - Totally. - Versus here, if I blow my one night at UV and that's my budget, then that's that. - Well, it's totally, it's biased in the sense that if you're paying out of your own pocket and you have to eat,

then you're going to just go to the places that you want to eat. And so it's not objective, right? It's not like, okay, go to all the restaurants in the city and then evaluate them very, very like scientifically. This is like, okay, I'm in Bangkok. I'm going to go to this restaurant because I'm hungry for whatever kind of food. And it's,

reasonably priced. Well, they're probably trying out new restaurants. They would be, but still there's going to be some type of selection bias no matter what. Well, for sure. For sure. Like when we're in Bali, we would hit up Locavore and Ubud and it was damn good. So you basically put together a compilation of every place you've eaten over the year and then you pick the best ones and then you've got to write why.

Right. And a lot of factors come into that. How does the, how does the Michelin listing work? Is it also based on like you have judges that go out and just try restaurants? Yeah. They have a panel of judges. Well, it's supposed to be anonymous, but then it gets into the corruption aspect that you were talking about because then people will go on the side and say, Hey,

I'm a judge. Yeah. You know? Yeah. Better get fucking good service. What's that star worth, right? Yeah. And then there's so many key things. It's kind of cliche at this point, but single diners are always viewed as being a Michelin judge.

So like even these Michelin star restaurants back in the day, if a single person came in, you always gave them a lot of extra attention because you assumed that they were a judge. No wonder. So single diners always got a little bit more care to detail. And then other people would like drop a fork or something like that. And that was kind of another ringer. Like, did someone come and pick it up? Like, okay, you're just ticking boxes right now, you know? So then that kind of just kind of clues you in a little bit as to what this person's doing. And again, you got to study human behavior and you kind of have an idea of

of what some, the typical cliche judge is going to try to pull to tick boxes. Oh my God. You know where my head just went on that one? I eat solo a lot. I'm about to start dropping forks everywhere I go and start being pompous. Exactly. Yeah. That's exactly what I... Immediately the first thing you do when you sit down is swing some arrogance in there. And you guys know me, right? Complain about the ice cubes. Get the meal comped. Yeah.

That's exactly where my head went. And I'm a real stickler for that kind of stuff. Wow. Wait, I want to backtrack a little bit. You were mentioning how the delivery platforms...

the major ones, they often charge like a lot of fees in it that you don't even know about sometimes. They're gangster. Yeah, so this took me by surprise and I feel like let's bring it up because I don't think they know about this and we could just quickly talk about it. All right, just kind of a brush stroke on this one.

The bigger ones, like you had mentioned, they do a delivery fee and a platform fee. So to be listed on their platform would be, let's say, 20%. And then- Of the overall bill, each bill, right? Each item, yeah. So, okay, if you do not watch them, sometimes they'll jack you up to like 28%.

And then you kind of reflect on the, you got to watch them every day because then all of a sudden you say, excuse me, why are we at 28% for the past two days? Oh, we included you in some special promotion and we're doing this and you're taking on our end and they don't tell you. So if you don't watch them, they're kind of trained to basically take advantage of you and try to, it was like, we do our own marketing. I don't need anything from you. So you want to keep that around 20, 23% is kind of the,

unfortunate going rate. So it's 20% right off the top just to be on their platform. Yeah. Okay. Plus delivery fee. So it costs a lot to be on those delivery fees. And then a lot of people would say something along the lines of, well, why don't I just do my own delivery? It's like, well, do you really want to carry that insurance? No, no, no. That's a nightmare. No. So, you know, we started a really small and we kind of relied on them. So now that we've kind of got proof of concept and we understand that

We've got to be more profitable, and it's not profitable by doing 80%, 90% of your business with delivery platforms. So that's why we want to get more seats in the next place and kind of encourage more grab, go, take away, sit in.

and be less reliable on these delivery plans. I'm going to start ordering delivery less. I've been only ordering delivery from Cincinnati. That'll be good. Get you out of the house. And there's a new platform coming online very soon. I think they're already on, but they are going to be game changers. JD.

JAD's going to start delivering food? Yeah. Are you talking about Jingdong? Yeah. They are hiring like crazy right now. Really? But why do you say they're going to be a game changer? Wouldn't they follow just the same business model? Competition, same business model, but they're cutting the delivery and platform fees. Of course they are because they're newcomers. They're going to try to put Meituan out of business. And they got the pockets to do it. Exactly. Who owns Meituan? Tencent? Is it? I don't know. But like Sherpas got put out of business by their own company.

And they just could not keep up with Olaman Meituan. What happened to Sherpas? I remember so... You used to live off of Sherpas. I used to, years ago. I only ordered... I haven't ordered from Sherpas for years now. I don't know why. They had, remember those little books? No, they're still around. Are they still around? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I still have their app. I check it. They're still there, right? They're closed. No, they closed in October. Oh, okay. Well, before October, they were still there. Or November, something like that. Yeah, they closed. A sad, dying death. Literally, we did not even want to deal with Sherpas anymore.

But I was like, ah, let's just see. Because there's some old school people that have been here for a long time and Sherpas is what they know. And there's some people still that aren't too astute to order in Chinese on the other platform for you. So I was like, ah, let's give it a try.

And it was just one guy named Connor. Don't know who this guy is, but his name Connor always popped up every day for the Italian. We only had like basically one to two people. If we did three people on Sherpas a day, we're like, wow, Sherpas is busy today. One guy named Connor. I really want to find out who the hell this guy is. So Connor, if you are listening. That was Howie's login from back in the day. Yeah.

One guy. What was the main thing that, why couldn't Sherpas compete? Was it just the price? Well, the guy, Mark, sold the company a long time ago to Yum Brand. Yum Brand did not really care about this brand at all. So even talking to the girls who worked for Sherpas for like 11 or 13 years, she told me, nice, nice lady. But she was like, we get no budget. They don't like us. I was like, are you going to try to do something else? Maybe you want to switch there? She's like, no.

It was just sad. It was just a slow, sad, dying death because nobody cared about it. And they were so ridiculous too. You remember those delivery times. It was like, oh, please be patient. It's raining outside. Your order will be there in three hours. Oh, it's rain. It's a little sprinkle outside. We're going to charge you an extra 20 quai delivery fee.

da-da-da, and then they didn't have to. Oh, shit, I remember that. Yeah, that's why I hate the Sherpas. There's no way they can compete, right? It's like a mom and pop trying to compete against frickin' Costco or something, or Sam's. But here's my question. Because of the two brands that we just mentioned, Ulema and Meituan, the two biggest ones, I would say, you would think that they would be fighting against each other and lowering costs to be competitive, but I guess not. They're...

kind of in line. So, you know, maybe there's some communication in the background. Like, no one's going to go down to 15% and the other guy's going to stay at 20%. We're not going to catch you by surprise. We're in this together. They have their costs. But also, the market is also big enough where they're both kind of just like, yeah, you know, it's good. Yeah, we don't need to take over. I don't know. I'm just guessing. They've got scale. That's the network effect. But how does the delivery kind of business model here work?

Compared to that of, let's say, in the States, which is like Uber Eats or something or whatever they're using in America, is it relatively the same kind of a business model or is it radically different? I don't know. I haven't lived there in a long time. I don't know. And then also in the States, it seems like – last time I was there, I was staying in a hotel in Chicago near the airport getting an early flight the next day, so I ordered a pizza. Yeah.

Guy rolls up. Cool. It was like 14 bucks. I gave him a 20. So, so, uh, we good. We good. I like, oh shit. And now I'm embarrassed. Like, uh, yeah, sure. Here, keep the money. But, uh, why, why did I just tip you 45%? You know, like, wait, what, what was the, like, we good. Yeah. That's all he said to me. Like keep the change. So we good. Uh, maybe, I don't know. Okay. Go.

But this speaks, Jason, to, I mean, it goes back to the business acumen piece. Because, you know, while you're, you know, you're American, you've spent many years here in China. Like you, like Justin was saying, like you run all kinds of businesses and done all kinds of things. So like, then you saw the opportunity, right? It's not like this business model in its current incarnation, you know,

you'd have to do a different proof of concept in another country. It's very specific to your local knowledge of this market. And even if you wanted to go to Beijing, I would argue, you'd have to network and find people you knew there to understand the market. 100%. And we do know a fair amount of people in Beijing. I think that would be

not on the top three places I would want to go. Wow. Yeah. Well, I can imagine. There's a lot more energy in, you know, even though Shenzhen is so spread out, Guangzhou seems to be a little more interesting. Wuhan seems to be a little more interesting. Like the younger crowds, the more at universities. Hell yeah. Those type of things. I think Wuhan would be kind of cool, right? Yeah. And again,

And again, you got to look at all the rents, right? So you would need about 30 square meters for these things and, and rent in Beijing ain't cheap. Yeah. Especially to be in the right place. And then again, taking on that delivery platform fees and these other places, you just have to be very cautious and careful how much you spend just to make sure that you can still pay the rent, pay your staff and get the product in. Right. I mean, we, we were traveling in Ho Chi Minh not too long ago and

You know, I'm like, how the hell can we compete here? It's a dollar for a banh mi on every corner and they're delicious. Yeah. You know, but then we, we went on like this, uh, I was ordering like three banh, four banh mis a day. And we were specifically going to get in the car and go into this one, then this one, then this one. And by the end of it, I, what I realized about all the banh mis as great people are in love with that sandwich, but honestly, it's a pretty shit sandwich. The bread is just so damn bad. Yeah.

I'm like, I don't get it. So even in our group, there's a lot of people asking for banh mi's. I'm like, nah.

Nah, thought about it. Went, tried them. Nah. Sticking to your guns. I had one good one out of like eight days traveling in Ho Chi Minh. Yeah. To me, what differentiates your stuff outside of just the fact that we grew up in the US and all that is the quality. It's that you maintain the quality of the product. It's a loyalty piece, right? Because like the margins, obviously for a sandwich are not going to be massive, but it's like they're going to go to you and not someone else.

Well, the game is definitely upped over the past eight months, I would say. Yeah. You know, there's some really good sandwiches out there. Yeah. So this is another thing I want to touch on. There's actually several things I want to touch on too. And we should actually start maybe pivoting away from sandwiches a little longer. It's been a long conversation. Jason is such an interesting guy for us to just talk about sandwiches the whole time. But I do want to like, you know, Howie was touching upon this and I just want to add my two cents in.

And I remember I pulled you guys aside one day and even said this to you guys off air was that, so I feel like there is this renaissance happening now in Shanghai with a lot of F&B. Pre-COVID, it was kind of like, okay, you know, it's steadily Western food, international cuisine is steadily improving globally.

But now I just feel like that bar is now even elevated where the expectation now of like even a simple thing like a burrito or a sandwich, the standard and the bar has been raised where it's like we're expecting even better now than what the bar was pre-COVID. Do you feel that that's the case? I think for sure you see a lot more things popping up. You know, some of the big boys got out of town and then closed, you know, as we all know. So, yeah.

The game got tougher and people had to get smarter and figure out exactly what's important. Do you want to do? We've seen this every day. So five of them in the way here today. Whenever I see a sign outside of a shop that just opens this coffee, pasta, pizza, sandwich, snack, it lists like 500 things that they do. It's like, oh, not going there because that's just someone fishing.

They're just trying to get people in. And you know, you can't do everything great. So why don't you just do what you do and do it well and get a loyal customer base, right? So that's what a lot of people are doing now. They got smarter and it's more cost effective to be able to do a few things that are very, very good than try to please the masses. Those days are gone. And those high-end places are kind of slightly suffering, but you can't do everything good. So just focus on your skillset.

Make it simple and make it good and make people happy. Yeah. I feel like I see a lot more of these smaller shops open up where you literally, your capacity is like 20 patrons or so. Absolutely. As opposed to larger restaurants or high end restaurants. I see that difference. Well, you, nobody wants to pay for those square meters of empty seats sitting out in the dining room. Yeah.

Right. Nobody wants to pay for that. So they're trying to figure out the sweet spot. How many people do we need to do per square meter per day to be successful and turn a profit? What's too little, what's too much? Yeah.

And it's the competition because the novelty is worn off. Like, like Western food has been here for a long time. When I was in Vietnam a couple of years ago and I was in Hanoi and I thought it was interesting because we got like a local guide that was like, you know, like from that, from there, very sassy. He said, it's super competitive because it was, he was talking about Vietnamese food and it's so specialized. And he said, he said, if you go to any place and they offer more than two different types of, you know,

Vietnamese dishes, you know they're shit. Yeah. Right? You know they're absolute shit because every other store there, they've honed their craft on like one and the only reason they could survive. And so once something, the novelty factor gets lost, like you lose that. And then, you know, everyone here, the foreigners have sort of gone, oh,

Lots of them over the last couple of years. And then this new Gen Z crowd who probably has spent more time overseas and they've experienced things. So the competition is absolutely fierce. So basically now everyone has to deliver a real product. It can't just be because, oh, like some Westerner opened this restaurant. Yeah. Your view will only get you so far now.

Right. And your price point, people are extremely more price sensitive. And again, like we were talking about, you can only charge so much for something until you're like, damn it, I need to charge more, but I can't. Would you pay that much? No. Okay. Well then this is the price. Yeah. When I, when I was in Hong Kong, I was working at the peninsula at the restaurant Felix on the top floor.

And it just was not a good fit because it was a tourist destination and the bathroom was designed by a Philip Stark and

And so the bathroom was stunning. I don't know if you guys have been there. Have you been there? No. Anyway, one of the coolest. If it's Philip Stark, I would kind of imagine. It was one of the coolest bathrooms you'll ever witness on the planet. And that's not really good for a chef when your toilet is more popular than your food. They didn't even care. They probably didn't even look at the food. People go there just to take a shit. They were going there to do that and then look out the window the whole time. So it didn't really matter what was on the plate. It could have been...

Yeah. It's like, you got to look at the context of what's going on, the zeitgeist of what's going on, like the environment, the times, the place and all those things. And you got to just pick your moment. And sometimes that moment, that window only lasts like a year, but you learn from that and then you kind of pivot. You've got to kind of get in there at the right time. Right. And you got to do, I mean, we are cheap. Okay. I don't like spending money if we don't have to, because we have very limited margins. Right. But so we get kind of lucky that we're

We've been picked up by a few KOLs who like to come in, the local small younger Chinese girls who want to come in, take the photos of a sandwich, and then kind of post it to their people. So we had to get a little bit more interesting with our marketing strategies because we don't have a big budget. So again, to touch on the base, we did the underground menu. Yeah, I want to talk about that a little bit. I mean, I'm in that group, the secret group.

So is Justin. I don't think Eric is. He hasn't earned it. Eric hasn't earned it. He hasn't learned the password yet. How he sends it to me. Let's not let him in ever. But what I want to know is how important is this underground menu or sort of group thing?

It's really cool, you know, because our shop is only 20 square meter, right? But there's over 300 and something people in that group. More now. In over a year. Yeah. Yeah, it was just me and my wife at the beginning. It was two of us. Yeah. And that thing sat empty for like four months. And then we're like, okay, well, why don't we try to do something, you know, something niche? Because a lot of people, we...

Sometimes every month or some months, we are the most repeat ordered restaurant in Jing'an area. You also showed me a ranking that you were on for Ulema. Yeah. You were like the top delivery. Most repeat delivery. Most repeat? Okay. So when people are ordering that much from us, we want to kind of keep something fresh, new. I want to reward people who do order a lot by letting them in on a little secret. If you're in this group, we're going to make some cool stuff and you're going to be privy to getting it.

And you got to order in code. People love that. It's fun. People love that. I love how for a lot of people who are newer to like the secret menu, I always see this question. It's like, oh, if I order six Cokes, how do you guys know like what I want? Like, what if you guys just give me six Cokes? Yeah. So. And you're like, if you're ordering six Cokes from us, you have a problem. Yeah. Why are you getting it from us? Koma is down the street. Just get it from them. Go to Family Mart.

So I think people really do enjoy ordering nine Gatorades or five Asahi's and then receiving something that's not what they ordered, which confuses the shit out of the delivery guys. Well, that's repeated a lot. Just shut up. Just go. And the message is that the delivery is like, are you sure this is what you ordered? I see eight Gatorades, but this is a sandwich. The other day we had an order for 51 beverages. 51?

51. One order. It was like 10 Asahi, 14 Cokes, five Coke Zeros, or blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. It was 51 beverages. And it was all food. That's hilarious. So, of course, the delivery guys are like, what are you guys doing over here? But it's kind of fun, right? And so I think even myself, I get a kick out of it when I'm pressing Coke six times, and then I get a bowl of soup and give people something. Because again, in the wintertime, a good soup is really hard to find.

So we started that and soups are selling like crazy. Okay. So let's talk about that for one second because we've talked about this. It's not sandwiches. It's soups. It's good. Real quick, real quick. We've got to move on from this. You're killing them. But how funny, because we've had this conversation, Jason, and I know Justin is going to want to chime in. When somebody opens a restaurant and they're not like us who grew up eating a certain type of food,

But they're trying to make Western food. So if there's on the menu, there's, let's say, spaghetti bolognese, you know, I can almost guarantee if that person's local or not. Oh, of course. Right? Because for some reason, there's just something about it that's just off. And 100% guaranteed there's going to be pumpkin soup. Yep.

Mushroom truffle? Mushroom soup. Those two are 100% going to be on the menu. Why is that? Was that just because maybe the locals like it more? Or carbonara pasta is always on there? Always. It's always bolognese and carbonara. All right. Let's start with the soups. Pumpkin, ngongua, mogu. Cheap.

And they think, they think Chinese people like it. And I cannot stand that when people say, oh, Chinese people like that. Or, oh, Chinese people don't like that. No. Chinese people are just like everybody else. You don't, oh, Chinese people don't like sandwiches. No. They don't like bad sandwiches. They don't like bad soups. They like good food. You can't put a label. So stop punishing people by saying, oh, they like pumpkin soup. Do they? When was the last time you went out and ordered a pumpkin soup? Yeah. Never. But it's cheap and

And it's kind of a cliche nowadays. It's a cliche, right? Yeah. Back in the day, that probably holds some weight. Like, I remember eating a mushroom truffle soup in a French restaurant in the late 90s or something, saying, wow, that's delicious. That's cool. It's called mushroom cappuccino because they put a little foam on top. Oh, that's different. Now you're like, yeah, whatever. So we don't want to do that because we want to do things –

that you can't make at home. Yeah. Right? So, yeah, the carbonara is always that weird cream, no egg, cheap bacon, terrible. Yeah. Yeah, it's always on the menu. But you do touch on a really good point because I remember talking to a Chinese relative of mine and they were like, oh, I don't like steak.

I'm like, okay. But then like after dining, I was like your type of palate, I can tell like you would probably like a good steak. They're like, nah, I've tried steak. I don't like steak. I'm like, have you ever had a good steak? And so I took them to like a proper steak restaurant and

And they love steak. They just never had a good steak because they always went to those cheap- Sliced super thin, cooked well done. Super thin, well done. It's soggy. It's wet steak. It's not even- Grass fed. Yeah, there's no char to it. Super chewy. Yeah, super chewy. But that was their impression of steak. So how could you blame them? Because their entire introduction to this food is done a certain way. So they'll know any better.

Same with sandwiches, same with soups, same with pastas. That's a very insightful anecdote. And that's something we talk about on the show is not making assumptions. Because it's so easy, especially for foreigners like us to be like, okay, this is what Chinese people are like. This is what they want. This is what they do. And it's problematic in a couple of ways. Well, first of all, there's 1.3 or 4 billion people here. So like any other culture, everyone is individual. There are different...

The differences between two different Chinese people could very well be much larger than the difference between that Chinese person and a foreigner. Just because that's one way it's problematic. The other way it's problematic is exactly what you're saying is that we're not even talking about the same thing. We're exposing them to things that are not even the thing that that thing is called. Yeah.

Right? It's like a steak. We have two completely different things in mind. I mean, what is a steak? It's five letters. But what is an actual steak could vary from every restaurant. Even from day to day, the steak could be different. And I think we're not precise enough. Yeah. Go ahead. Well, again, and then the cut of beef as well, right? I mean, tenderloin is the most overrated thing on the planet, but a full

foreigners, everybody still loves a filet mignon or a beef tenderloin, right? It's soft, it's textured, and that kind of becomes the epitome of what people assume a steak is versus kind of more

well-traveled, well-seasoned people eat steak for a lot, a lot. Sometimes they'll gravitate towards a bavette or a flank steak or a ribeye. I'm just a ribeye guy. I'm a ribeye, rib cap guy. I'm a New York strip. I'm a ribeye. Ribeye. Marbling. All day. What's rib cap? It's that nice, gorgeous piece of meat above the

Above the strip. Yeah, try that. So it's also about experience, right? So, you know, have you had a good steak? Like we've talked about, right? And then what kind of steak do you like? Yeah. Yeah. It's so much about exposure, right? They're not exposed. Because they said, when I've opened a lot of steak houses in my life, I've had a lot of steak houses

55 and 5th in Abu Dhabi. We did the Mandarin Oriental. We did 58th Greek Grill. Sticking with the numbers here. We've done a lot, right? And then dry aging was kind of a popular thing maybe 15, 10 years ago, right?

Oh, Chinese people won't like it. It's like, how do you know? And now what's it stone saw or something like that? They are crazy busy and they, they age their meat way too long in my opinion, but it's insane. Like I just, they love it. Yeah. Well, it's, it's about exposure, but it's also about like for the person making the food. I think something you touched on previously, Eric was like,

Is the heritage there? Is the love and passion for this thing and understanding for this thing there, right? Because like, as much as we're complaining about like maybe, you know, the Western food not done right here, like,

You can say the equal thing about like some guy in America who's never been to China or maybe like spent like one week in China, went back and started opening up a dumpling place, right? Yeah. After he tattooed something in Chinese on his arm so everyone can see that he's got credit for being in China. He's trying to like imitate this concept of a dumpling in his mind and it's just a disaster. That's such a great example. Well, my family used to call PF Changs. They called it PF Shames.

And then my mom will be like, oh, we're gonna take you to the dumpling place. Oh, your dad and me love that place. And I'm like, dude, do you know where I live?

Do you know who we are? Do you know where our ancestors are from? Like, what? But that orange peel beef and dynamite prawn from P.F. Chang's is still pretty damn delicious. I call that honky Chinese food. I eat it. I like honky Chinese food. We were talking the other day. Was that you and I were talking about getting the egg roll wrappers? The egg roll, yeah. You can't find good egg roll wrappers because I would love delicious egg roll. Hey, what was that restaurant? Chopsticks? Yeah, Chopsticks. And then there was another one before that.

I was doing like American Chinese food. Yeah. Fortune cookie. Fortune cookie. Yeah. That was fun. So mad that that was gone. But everyone's tried the American Chinese version and they've all failed miserably. It's terrible. Because it's such a limited audience. It's just American Chinese.

- Well, I mean, you know, you pop up, you could pop that up on Christmas day, do a Panda Express on Christmas day. And that would be fun because, you know, especially like, you know, Chinese food was very popular in Christmas for a lot of cultures because like if you're Jewish,

You're not, everything's closed. What's open? The Chinese restaurant. The American Chinese restaurant. So it kind of like became a thing. That would be a fun theme. Actually, Joe's Pizza has a General Tso's chicken. Do you ever see that? No. Yeah, Joe's Pizza has it. Is it good? No, it's not. Is it under my burnt pizza? I haven't seen it. It's not good. It's not yummy, but at least they offer it. Okay, so what are some of your favorite Chinese dishes?

and Chinese restaurants here in Shanghai. I'm curious. All right. I like... Wanghongdu has a lot. So if you ever spend any time in Wanghongdu, and I spend a lot of time there. Wanghongdu Road? Yeah. Where Substandard is. Yeah, near your shop. There's a little Shenzhen and...

Gyoza place like a few doors down. It's pretty damn delicious. Really? There's always a queue. It's good. Senjian Bao? Yeah. And then if you go onto Beijing Road, hang a left, there's a hairy crab soup dumpling shop. And that place has got a queue. It's amazing. Really? Shit. Tonight we're going to Silo.

Oh, I heard about that. It's also on Wulamuchi. Yeah. I haven't been, but we're going tonight. I'm looking forward to that. It looks pretty cool. Is it Shanghainese or is it?

I have no idea. But it's Chinese. I think I've heard of it. Do you like duck? Like da dong? We were debating, silo or da dong, tonight. Okay. Because I went for my birthday the other day and like, I mean, like we just picked, me and my wife just picked out. Don't tell me that's your first time. Yeah. No, no, no. So I love, so when I first came to China, I was traveling to Beijing, this was years ago.

And, you know, I've always loved duck in the U.S., but you wouldn't, you know, in Houston, you wouldn't really get good stuff. But I, for whatever reason, I just love picking duck.

So I come out, my colleagues take me. It's like in Beijing. It's really, really legit. And so we do it. So the next day I'm like, Hey, I really liked that place. Can we go back? They're like, okay. Yeah. Right. And then the third day I was like, can we go back? And they're like, okay, last time. Right. And then like the fourth day I'm like, come on, let's go. And they're like, no, we're not going to go with you. So then I ate duck for two at the hotel. And so I ordered like a duck every single day for two weeks. And it got to a point where

Like I just hear people snickering and laughing and I turn around because I was like the only one in the restaurant in the hotel. And then like, there would like, you know, be serious. Like the wait staff. Yeah. Cause they were just, and then later on I got to know them. They're just like, dude, we've never seen someone like so skinny and then coming in like two weeks in a row of duck. Like you're crazy. But yeah, I love like. But I understand. Yeah. I understand. Dadong is amazing. It's so good. But yeah, I mean the Chinese food is, is just, I really enjoy dadong. And then they have delivery.

So have you ever had the Beijing duck delivery? No. That's insane. Yeah. We need to do that. Did you say Da Dong does delivery? But is it still good, though? It's great. Really? They do the best packaging. Wait, what? Yeah, it's called like, not petite Da Dong, but it's something like that. And they have like a runoff delivery-based thing where you can order the duck and all the sides and trimmings come with the fried rice. And the packaging is what you would expect out of Da Dong. Wow. It's really good.

Yeah, we do that from time to time when we just want to indulge. I think Beijing kaoya is one of those dishes. I'm with you, Eric. I can just keep eating. But that's universal. Like even non-Chinese people, like that's like the first thing. But it can be heavy because the stuff here is so...

you know, it's so oily and fatty, but like, no, I mean, for me, I, it might be number one. I've never gotten full off of Beijing Kalyan. What? Yeah. Like I love it, but like it just, you just can't fill me up because I can just keep eating it. It's a perfect drink. Just like sushi. I can keep eating sushi. Yeah. I know. I will never get full off of sushi. I will eat a sandwich after I finished my sushi round. Yeah. I know. Like sushi for sure.

Yeah. But like, I mean, no, we had half a duck. I mean, sorry, we each had half, so full duck. But you know what my pet peeve is, is like, they never give you enough pee, right? So what happens, you go through it and then you run out of the pancakes and then you're like, I need more pancakes. And then it's like 45 minutes before they give it. So this time I like- You got ordered in advance. Yeah. So literally, I like-

I sat them down and I was like, you need to, and I'm like, we need, he's like, they were like, we get it. I'm like, I want two full boxes full of them. Don't take the caps off. Otherwise it'll get cold. And like, we know, we know. Right. And I'm like, and I repeated it like 10 more times. You don't know. Yeah. I said, you don't know. I said, I come here all the time and you always fuck it up. And they're like, okay, we get it. And then every 10 minutes I checked, like, do you have the second box? Do you have the second box? Is that my second box? And then, you know,

Yeah, it was pretty... Yeah, they love him over there. That was Volcano. But, you know, to your point,

you got to eat just like every cuisine. You have to eat so many places to find the one you really like. Yeah. Right. So for every food, 10 bad ones or for to find one good one, you got to eat 10 bad ones. Well, Jason, I want to ask you because you, before you kind of made a quick comment that maybe went under the radar when I think Eric mentioned Joe's pizza, because you make a, you make a really solid pizza yourself. Right. And, and this is something very near and dear, I think to our hearts is pizza, you know, coming from New York and everything. Um,

And it's also a very personal thing, right? Everyone has their own opinions on what kind of pizza they like. Some people like a thin crust, some people like thick crust, whatever it is. The Shanghai pizza scene, what are your thoughts? Who do you think, anyone kind of stand out to you in terms of people you think are doing it good, doing it right?

All right. I mean, it's probably no secret. I think the reigning champs is definitely home slice. They've got a great following. They make a really good New York slice. Agreed. I think they do a great job. Nothing to really complain about. I think that white pepperoni pizza is pretty damn banging. I don't know if you've tried that one, but it's pretty good. Classic white for me, but yeah. Yeah, they do. They do. All right. With the Parmesan crust, they're good. Yeah.

Okay. I really like what Wayne and Lee are doing over at Zup, his Detroit style. Like we were just talking, you know, when they did their pop-up over at Pony. That Queen Bee is delicious. Queen Bee is awesome. It's freaking delicious. It's so good. Me and my son went and we ordered so much. Yeah. That honey, that honey they put on it. It's so good. And then we got a square takeaway and I was like, oh, I can't wait to get home, put on some Netflix and just crush this thing, even though I'm already embarrassed at how much pizza I've already eaten today. Yeah.

So I like a lot what they're doing. So I think the pizza game is pretty damn strong here. You haven't mentioned Authentic Italian.

You're so American. I know. I know. Italians just can't do pizza, right? They really suck at it. They suck at pizza. They were good. They were good 500 years ago. They want to talk about how cool they are with their pizza. But it's like, okay. They sucked before the Americans got in the game. Damn, I'm about to start fucking railing, okay? But it's like, listen.

They're like, oh, it's just a traditional. I add 5% to sugar, a little bit of salt, just the tomato. It's like, fuck off, bro. Put some damn oregano in there, some fresh basil, some garlic. Punch that shit up a little bit. Sweat some onions in there. Put the work in. Then spread that shit on the pizza. If I see a raw slice of tomato on my pizza...

It's just so soggy. And then stop it with your one black olive on the damn pizza. It's like, chop that shit up and put it on the damn pizza. Who's the lucky guy who's going to get the one single olive with a pit in it? Like, come on. The artichoke. Yeah, the oily artichokes you just pulled out of a jar that are just sopping up oil all over the place. Nah. Give me some real ingredients. And then that salami they put on there. I love...

cured salami yes cured salami not baked so that fat that fat just kind of bakes and then it has a really weird aroma and tastes different the texture's different stop it yeah

But supposedly Naples has upped their pizza game and they, you know, maybe it's just sort of still there. But apparently, like I've read some articles, seen some stuff, they've been upping their pizza game. They're trying to catch up to the Americans. I mean, they're still a couple hundred years behind, but they're upping their game. That's just an urban legend. But seriously, like there's supposed to be some good places. So I don't know. Well, I mean, okay. For what it is for an Italian pizza, I don't order Italian pizzas because I like a little bit more flavor. My profiled flavor profile. Like that's why we do...

the deluxe and we do so much pepperoni in our pepperoni delicious because i like i love this just you know they're supposed to be rule number one in pizza making is don't over top the pizza i'm like really no i say put everything exactly that's fucking liars right yeah they're like not not top the shit out of that thing yeah um but you know again uh not to name drop too much but bottega does good at what they do okay yeah they do a fried pizza

Yeah, they do it like, I think it's a calzone, and they deep fry it. And that one's pretty damn good. Me and my son are both addicted to that one. So I think what they do, and again, for a Chinese consumer base, they're going to assume, because how many people walk into my shop, oh, you must be Italian. I'm like, nah, nah. But okay, so is this a misconception? But I feel like the local scene here, at least in Shanghai...

The locals probably lean more towards Italian style because there's a lot more Italian restaurants that do their Italian style. They associate pizza with Italian food. That's the biggest lie we've been ever told is that Italians, like pizza comes from Italy. It's like, no, pizza comes from New York. We all know that.

Where do noodles come from? They come from Italy or from China. Do you ride in a horse in a cart? Or do you ride in an EV now? Yeah, you could have done that shit 500 years ago. Come on. Get with the times. We're shitting on traditional pizza so bad. It's just fucking not good. But I will defend. Pizza is what makes America great. Well, to me, it's like the biggest thing is can you hold the slice up? All the toppings are going to just...

fall off and it's like all soggy and shit. I've never asked you like, what brought you to China in the first place? Like, what was that? Like, why are you here? Okay, let's back that up a little bit. I was in Vegas opening The Win. Before The Win opened, I was at the Mirage. Then we did the World Gourmet Summit in Singapore. So me and my boss flew from Vegas out to Singapore. We spent some time in Tokyo and

And at this point, I was very American. I had to go look up where Singapore was on the map. So was that your first time in Asia? First experience with Asia? Yes. And I really liked Singapore. It was cool. What year was this about? How far are we going back here? 2005. Okay. So I get back and where I was working in Vegas, it was in the wind called Alex. Alex Strada was the chef. And right across the hallway from us was a guy named Richard Chen who ran Wing Lai.

So we knew Richard quite well, really cool guy. And he's like, oh, the peninsula of Hong Kong is looking for a chef. I was like, wow, I like Southeast Asia. That's pretty cool. All right. So he put me in touch with people. I flew out there, got the job. So I left Vegas, went to Hong Kong. That's when I got into the toilet was just way too, was outnumbering me to the amount of people who actually gave a shit. Yeah. Same for me. So yeah.

After that, I did some consulting, messing around in Singapore a little bit, and then a job at Three on the Bund at Restaurant Laris. The chef position became available because Gerhard left to go open the Park Hyatt. 2010, financial crisis, everyone was getting laid off, so I moved to Dubai, worked for EMAR at the Address Hotel, opening team of the Burj Khalifa Atmosphere on the 122nd floor, then to Abu Dhabi.

um, opened the St. Regis on Saudi Island, uh, at the steakhouse 55 and fifth, which was stunning property, stunning property. And after three years in the Middle East, I was just begging to get out of there and come back to Shanghai, Hong Kong or Shanghai. And at that time, the Mandarin Oriental was opening in Luja's way. So I was kind of friends with Richard Echabas at the time. Mandarin Oriental is a good group. So, uh,

did some interviews and got that job. So that brought me back to Shanghai. Were you only ever considering jobs in Asia? Why not? Why not? Did it ever occur to you like maybe to try to move back to the States or anything? Never crossed my mind. Why not? Just out here. I love the culture. I like the energy. I like everything.

that things change on a daily basis. You know, nothing's ever the same. I kind of miss a styrofoam bike guy, if you know who I'm talking about. Styrofoam? Oh, with the huge styrofoam tower? Wait, wait, they're still, I still, they're still around. I don't see him as much as I used to, so I kind of miss that guy. He's much more dormant these days. Yeah, there's a lot less styrofoam to pick up. No, no, no. You just see them. Oh, like, yeah. I don't see him that often anymore. Exactly. So I just liked how China, Southeast Asia was just

interesting. It changes. Different energy. It's different. So never thought about going back to the States. And then in the States, I come out here, I do Western food. There, I'm a dime a dozen. Here, it's kind of a special niche. Right? So, and then what I also love about Shanghai, ah, okay, kind of a tangent, but not. What I liked about Shanghai, Vegas, Hong Kong, Dubai, chefs might hang out with chefs, but they'll never give you their suppliers. They don't share. Right? Right.

That's taboo. You don't share your competition.

you're like, man, I wish we could get good red beets, candy stripe beets. Like, oh, I got a contact. Oh, I know a guy. Oh, let me help you with that. Right? Everyone's helpful to each other, which is very rare. Why do you think that is? Because we all want the same thing. We want better product. So if we all get together as a group, convince the farmers to grow these things for us, like Padron peppers, Shishito peppers. Those weren't here 10 years ago. Now they are. It's like a win-win for everybody, right? Yeah, it's a win-win. And I know that you...

you won't be doing the same thing with your fish that I'll be doing with my fish. I don't care. I just want better fish. Right. So, so I never saw that anywhere else around the world when I've been cooking, except for Shanghai. That's fascinating. That exact sentiment. I've heard more than once. Now, the first person to express that to me was Rafi.

from Cantina. Oh, he invented tacos and outdoor dining. He's a character all to himself. But I remember back in the day, he was telling me this. He was like, yeah, everyone's like, because I remember interviewing him and he was, and I was like, oh, isn't it just, is it cutthroat here? I was like, what's the competition like? He's like, actually, it's a really cool community. Like he was kind of saying what you're saying now. And I kind of didn't believe him. I thought like, okay, maybe you're just like, you're speaking on a podcast. You didn't want to, you know, alienate or offend anybody. Um,

But I've heard it more than once now where, yeah, I fully believe it. You know, what you guys are saying. It's amazing. It's crazy. I've never seen it anywhere. Because that would be unimaginable in New York. That's a cool idea. I think people that are outside this industry would never know this. But to me, this is fascinating. It's like you're banding together, right? It's like you were a small group of people trying to survive in a certain area and then you have to help each other. But it's not even about survival, what he just said, which I'm really honing in on is because

because everybody wants a better product. But are you saying mostly it's like that? Is there like that one asshole who's like trying to like undercut other people? The one asshole. His name is... Honestly, well, there was, okay, if I had to say something, there was a guy back in the day who was doing vegetables and then he got into the salmon. Then he started doing other stuff. Well, the other guys, other farmers, when they also start doing like microgreens because microgreens were everywhere.

I mean, you get a scoop of chocolate ice cream and someone's put coriander cress on it or something for fuck's sake. So you know what I'm saying. So anyway, so these other guys got into the micro green business. And the guy who had current micro green business started giving away the greens for free to try to put the other people out of business.

And now that was kind of an asshole move. So yeah, that's kind of the only guy. But other than that- But that was like from the supplier side, right? That's a supplier side, not a chef side. No, never has any chef ever said that I've ever heard of said, nope, I'm not going to give you that information. Yeah, I think in general, from my minimal understanding

knowledge of your industry. But from what I see of other chefs, in general, people tend to hang with each other. It's a close community. Back in New York, people would be talking shit about each other. Absolutely. But think about if you're in the US and everyone is just like you.

And like you're walking around and like, you're just going to like judge people a lot. Like, you're like, look at that idiot. Like whatever. Right. There's a lot more sort of, I think judgmental kind of stuff. But if you come to a place and there's not a whole lot of Americans, then you just tend to band together because there's less of you. So like if you fight each other, like,

I mean, what's the point? I get it. Well, that's why we also like doing the food festivals together, especially when Austin was doing them or Carlos at Up was doing one. Like, we all get together. It's like, yes, let's go cook together. Right? And everyone brings a little bottle that they want to drink that day. And everyone just has a big party and has fun. Yeah. And that's very rare to see chefs kind of get together and support each other. Be like, no, bro, I got to work. No, I'm not going out. I wonder if the local Chinese chefs...

are like what we were just saying. They're like talking shit about each other. I'm like, no, fuck that. That's my vendor. Yeah. It's probably a lot more cutthroat. You know what I mean? More cutthroat. Well, there's also like 100, like 10,000 times, like look at the population. Like if there's like a, how many people are in this group that like, like a couple dozen chefs? The chef community? Yeah. Like about,

I don't know. I haven't looked at it. I've minimized that group a long time ago, but I don't know, probably about 120. Yeah. So imagine like the Chinese chef, there's probably 20,000 in Shanghai, like 50,000 at least. And it's all regional. Yeah. Right. It all specializes in something. And that's what I also love about Chinese cuisine is they specialize in certain things and they only, like we talked about, only do a couple items on the menu. That's it. Yeah.

Yeah. And interesting because we didn't talk about burgers, but it's kind of like sandwiches is like the next thing because like burgers, right? It got to a point, you know, even 10 years. Remember New York style steak and burger? Yeah.

Like there was a, I remember when we first got here, we were also struggling to find like a really good burger. But then eventually that changed and there were like good burgers. And now it's like, you know, of course you can get a good burger in Shanghai. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So like everything, all these like different dishes kind of like develop at their own pace in terms of the standard that gets raised. Yeah. So what's the go-to burger? Oh, we were asking this question the other day.

Shake Shack? No. I like Five Guys. Five Guys is good. Five Guys is legit. I do. Like eating there, not taking out, but eating there. The takeaway in that wrapped foil is a disaster. Goodman Smash is all right. If I lived on this side of town, I'd go there more often. It's pretty good. I have not had a Goodman Smash. It's good. It's right down the street.

I mean, there's so many good, I don't know. Like I used to, I feel like I used to have like a go-to, but now it really just depends what style I want now. There's so many good burgers. Even Liberty still does a good job. Even Liberty, Queever, Queever has a solid burger. Yeah. Queever does a solid burger. Yeah. There's a lot of them. There's a lot. You know, at the Langham, like, I don't know anymore, but like years ago, I happened to be at the Langham, had their burger, really good, solid. Yeah. I ordered a,

I ordered the burger at 58 Degree Grill a few years ago. It was like 280 RMB. I'm like, okay, let's see what a 280 RMB burger tastes like. Of course, caramelized onions, foie gras, blue cheese, coriander crust, or some microgreen on top. It was like the sloppiest, messiest, not exciting burger ever.

ever well it's a lazy burger it's sad okay again I'm also one of those guys who get really tired of all the exotic luxury ingredients sprinkle on things to try to charge more yeah they shave some truffle and then they can charge a lot more yeah put some uni caviar toro on a piece of wagyu on an oyster and shave some truffle on it and then charge extra I have a related question but it can expand what if anything do you miss about America grocery stores

Whole Foods. Grocery stores. Whole Foods, grocery stores. Ah, I mean... The selection? Is that what it is? You don't miss the prices there, though. I don't care if it's good. I don't care what it costs, right? Okay, now here... Yeah, I miss grocery stores. That's what I miss out on. When we were back...

Like, you know, we were in like San Francisco or somewhere and was walking along with the wife and I'm like, oh, there's Whole Foods. Let's go inside. We must've hit like 10 different Whole Foods in 10 different neighborhoods that day because I just wanted to see, I just like it. It's an experience in there. You know. It's an experience. I mean, where can you, I mean, just to be able to buy freeze dried popcorn and dried raspberries and this, that, and the other. It's consumer, like America, it's consumer heaven. When you look at it, it's like, it's on, it's on like steroids. That's true. Everything here is just app based products.

ordering systems, right? And I also miss tangible. I miss bookstores. I miss...

tangible goods where I can go and make a decision and pick out which one I want by looking at all of them and then grabbing one instead of like ordering clothes online and ordering blah, blah, blah, and then sending two back, ordering three. I think you're really hitting something that I haven't really thought of. The idea of app-based purchasing or online purchasing, delivery purchasing, where you're scrolling, whether it's clothes, books, whatever, you're scrolling online

seeing what you want, as opposed to being there and experiencing through your senses, making a choice or discovering things.

Yeah, you lose that. You don't have that in the app. If anything, when I'm scrolling, even on grocery shopping, and I hate grocery shopping on the phone because I just get tired. I'm just tired. You're not even sure about the quantity because they almost put it in ounces or something. If I buy vegetables, I'm like, how many cucumbers is that? You know? Like...

I'm never really clear. Why cucumbers, for example? No, that's just the first thing that popped up in my mind. But yeah, you get fatigued, right? Because sometimes what I'm sure you like is walking around the supermarket not knowing exactly what you want, but something catching your eye, suddenly getting inspired and be like, oh, maybe I'll put together this dish. And then all of a sudden start looking for certain things. But I mean, you could still do that. It's different. It's different. It's different.

I mean, we buy pretty much everything online. Unless it's a specific meal, then I'll go to whatever city super and pick it up. You know, even the fresh, people don't buy fresh anymore. So if you go look at all that beef and you're like, oh, let's get those steaks tonight for dinner. Chances are they've been sitting there for about four or five days in that tepid danger zone temperature of about four to six degrees, eight degrees. And it's not going to be good because people aren't buying it. It's not turning through. Yeah. I mean, there's a few things. Like one is that

Like City Super, I want to just blow it up. I get so angry when I go to places like City Super. But I think more importantly is that we're just getting further and further away from this notion of truly being human. And if you look at Gen Zers...

or Gen Alphas, they experience the whole world through just a window, a screen. So they don't even have that feeling of nostalgia or longing that we do because they've experienced everything from the time they grew up

They're seeing things through a screen and their, their conception of the world, I would argue is probably slightly different. If you've never grown up in a, in a world where you're touching everything and seeing everything. And so like they're experienced something very, very different. Whereas because we, it's like maybe one day people won't even go to national parks anymore. They'll just put on some goggles and they'll sort of be there. Wow. This is beautiful. Yeah. Yeah.

But because we grew up in an era where things were pretty much still very physical and offline, then that shapes our conception of the world. And I don't like being on my phone. I try to not be on it.

Agreed. But I think they still go to national parks because how are you going to get your selfie with a snow leopard before they, before they maul you? That's right. No, you'll be able to do that through, you know, whatever. Well, Jason, you have a eight or nine year old, right? Eight. Eight year old son. Son. Boy. Like, is, is that a, is that something that weighs on your mind in terms of like their relationship with, uh, digital devices and social media and stuff like that, especially in China? That's, that's a cool thing. Um,

Before he was born, me and Lori, my wife, we travel a lot and we eat a lot. That's kind of our hobby. So we were at the Chinese restaurant in the Four Seasons in Hong Kong, and we're looking at this couple, and it just struck us as just...

Cool, because the son and the daughter, they didn't put iPhones, iPads and stuff in their face to pacify them while they were actually enjoying a nice Michelin star meal. The kids were engaged and they were part of the conversation. We're like, wow, if we ever have kids, that's what we want to do. We don't want to alienate them. We want them to enjoy and embrace conversation, not be addicted to these phones. And we're not going to be lazy parents. We'll just go, here you go.

Yeah, look at this while mommy and daddy talk and drink wine. So we made a really strong commitment to always including him in our day-to-day life, right? Instead of pacifying him. And then

And I really enjoy talking to him. I like knowing what he's into. Like when we were setting up the shop, he's into Ultraman. That's his thing. Figured he would eventually grow out of it, but he hasn't. But it's pretty cool. So when we were decorating the shop, putting the wheels and stuff up on the wall, he's like, I'm going to help daddy. And he brought up a bunch of Ultramans and started putting Ultramans in the shop. So that's why we have them. And now I kind of look at those Ultraman as like our money cat.

So instead of having the cat with the waving hand, we got Ultraman in the window, man. He's, he's, uh, he's our guy. Yeah. So he's a kind of our, our, uh, sponsored money cat of the shop. That's really cool. Yeah. Are you, uh, are you a China lifer? Do you, do you see yourself here like long-term, you know, having a family here, all that business? Um, or do you, do you eventually think you'll, um, be moving elsewhere?

I mean, China's been, it's home, you know, it's, it's, uh, it's, it's life, but eventually, yeah, I'd kind of like to go someplace and just chill. Right. But again, I've always lived in big city, so I don't know how I would feel. We spent some time in Phuket and, um, Vietnam and like, oh, could we actually live a sleepy town? Could we actually live on the beach? Or are we just in love with that idea of being on the beach? Cause you go there for 10 days and then you're like, okay, this is getting a little boring. Let's, uh, head back to the city. Right.

So I don't know. I mean, I love Shanghai, but I, I hope I do have some more relocation destination set up shop, try something new again, because I, I've moved around so much. Um, and I do kind of miss that, um, travel relocation, see a new culture, see a new life, do something different. Yeah. I don't really like, um,

i like change you know um and i guess that's why i like asia a lot too like we said you know there's there's it's always redeveloping redefining itself but i would like to find something yeah i would like to at least have another place somewhere where we can kind of go chill yeah if you can have the best of both worlds situation that would be great yeah you know get him uh more nature more outside not city because right now he's scared of bees

He doesn't like the ocean because it smells like fish and he doesn't like fish. Right? So it's like all this stuff. I can't open the windows. Daddy, bees are going to come in. Okay. All right. So you can't open the windows because the bees, even on the 21st floor, bees are going to be flying around. We had a battle with a mosquito. I mean, not even a bee last night, a mosquito. Like I was scared shitless. I was like, no, because like you never know when they're going to attack. What? Mosquitoes are- You mean like bite you? Yeah. Like they're very, very sinister and they can like- And they're intelligent. There's like, yeah. Yeah.

I just don't like the fear of knowing it's going to always be there to attack you. When you're sleeping, come on. I have so many stories with mosquitoes. They are fucking ninjas. I know. Have you ever had a battle with a mosquito in the middle of the night? Yes, all the time. Have you? Yeah.

No? I have woken up in the middle of the night and slapped the shit out of my face for no reason, which hurt. But yeah, Mosquito won that battle. Real quick, real quick. This is when... You know what I'm talking about. Because when you were talking about this, it struck a nerve. I'll just share a real quick story. So I remember one time in the middle of the night, buzzing. They just...

They just love the buzz. It's the buzzing, the flybys. Right? The flyby by the ear. And then you're like, bam, bam, bam, bam, bam. You're trying to hit them. And obviously, they'll come back every five, ten minutes. Right? They just love going by the ear. Yeah. So I remember one time I got so frustrated because I kept slapping it. I didn't get it. That I got up and I...

Like I just got up, turned on the light, and I was looking around. I didn't see it. I'm like, all right, fuck it. So I said, you know what? Instead, I'm just going to cover myself and just leave my face. And so everything else was just like boom. It was in there with you. So it's just like my face, right? And all of a sudden, it's like boom, boom, boom.

It bit my cheek, right? And all of a sudden, my cheek is like puffing out. I'm like, fuck, right? And then I still couldn't see it. So then I just left my lips out. And the motherfucking shit bit my lip, right? It just found the one spot that was coming out of the blanket. And boom, I got so pissed. I said, I don't give a fuck. I'm going to get up. I'm going to find this motherfucker.

and kill it. And I turn on the light. You can imagine me with like a magazine and my boxers just on my bed. Yeah. Just like literally swiping at everything and yelling out, motherfucker, and just being so angry. You know what I'm talking about. I've done this. I've been that.

Like, because the thing, like one of the things is that if you're, if it keeps flying by, literally it wakes you up every five minutes and it's like a type of torture. It is. And both my wife and I, like she is very, because some people just don't get bit. Yeah. Like, like my dad, he just never gets bit. My mom does. So-

I know exactly what you're talking about. And if there's a mosquito in our place, so before what we would do is the mosquito would come and immediately we would, like, you know, she doesn't like waking up in the middle of the night and we would just immediately turn on the light and we would hunt for it together. Yeah. And she's got good eyes and I'm a good killer. So she would be like, it's over there. And I'd be like, bah! Right? And so there are many times where we had to do like US military operations and kill the fucking mosquitoes. But then later on,

I found there's a device, it's a little device you plug in and it has a little strip in it. Zero dark 30 over here. Yeah, exactly. And there's a little strip. You just put the strip in, it lasts 10 hours, you plug it in and then it, it, and it automatically, and there's no issue. Yep. Right? Those have been out there since like 1992. It's quite cutting edge technology now. That's why you slap yourself, right? Yeah.

And that makes sense because the story I shared was back when I was in college. There you go. Before those were invented. Yesterday we had to engage in an operation in the living room. Because you know how it's warming up? Like literally...

We were trying to watch a fucking movie. So we had to turn all the lights on. We found it and then, you know, eliminated it. It was a fucking mosquito. Why don't you just get screens? No, because we do have screens. It's just like they get in somehow. Like literally every time we open the door, they do get in. And they just get in. They do get in. You obviously are not...

Yeah he doesn't get bit Two mosquito bites Oh no they attack me all the time I've just figured out how to quickly kill them and move on with life It's inevitable It's inevitable it's gonna happen Yeah you guys are weird you two Yeah just move on with your life Kill them move on with their lives It's a mosquito bite get over it I can't relate to this like all night Special operations thing No because they keep coming It's like even one You have no idea

He has no idea. He doesn't get bit. That's why he puts all the blood in his mouth. No, no, I get bit. I get bit all the time. They like my blood, actually. I get bit all the time. It's based on what? Oxygen and blood type? I don't know. I don't know, but I've heard that it's like that's why when you're sleeping and everything is kind of dormant around you and they can tone in you because of the oxygen in your blood. That just shows like he's just so like... I've done online research on this. It's a different level. He's not... He's like... He's just so like... Nothing phases him. He's cold-blooded. It's all right. It's all right. Anyway, Jason.

I think what you're doing with Substandard is awesome. Obviously, we're fans of the place. And keep it up, man. I think what you're doing in your role and your contribution to the Shanghai culinary scene when it comes to Western food, at least, is really, really cool, man. And I'm a big fan. So thank you. Thank you for coming on and just talking with us. Yeah, good times. Hell yeah. I'm just throwing this out there, but, you know, I mean, if one day, if there was the Honest Drink sandwich...

Yeah, we'll look into that. I think it'll be mosquito-based. For sure. It'll be called the mosquito. Mosquito. Then you'll know what it is. It'll be called the bite. Yeah. Very good. That's a good one. That's a good one. Now we got something to work with. Yeah. All right. Cheers, Jason. Thanks. Cheers, guys. Thank you. All right. I'm Justin. I'm Howie. I'm hungry. All right. Be good. Be well. Peace. Peace. Peace. Peace. Peace.

Yeah.